Latest / Millennial Mental Health Channel / Reclaiming the Word "Fat" with Dr. Alisa Karmel

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Reclaiming the Word "Fat" with Dr. Alisa Karmel · Millennial Mental Health Channel

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to mmhc Eddie and I have
0:03
Speaker 1: an excellent guest for the podcast today. While back, Eddie
0:07
Speaker 1: got me into this book called T Shirt Swim Club.
0:11
Speaker 1: The name comes from growing up overweight and even though
0:14
Speaker 1: no one tells young fat people to wear a T
0:17
Speaker 1: shirt while they swim, they know they have to wear
0:20
Speaker 1: a T shirt because they internalize the messages that society
0:23
Speaker 1: has given them. So Eliza Carmel wrote this book with
0:27
Speaker 1: her brother Ian and she is the guest for today.
0:31
Speaker 1: Doctor Carmel earned her doctorate in psychology with a health
0:34
Speaker 1: emphasis from Pacific University. Eddie went to Pacific too. She's
0:38
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist at Psychological Services Connection. Additionally, she offers
0:44
Speaker 1: health coaching through Doctor Eliza Carmel, LLC. She completed her
0:49
Speaker 1: internship at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. She
0:53
Speaker 1: has a Master's of Arts in Counseling Psychology from Pacific University,
0:57
Speaker 1: a Master of Sciences and Nutrition from the National University
1:01
Speaker 1: of Natural Medicine, and a Bachelor's of Sciences in Education
1:05
Speaker 1: from the University of Oregon. We hope you find our
1:08
Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Carmel as enlightening as we did. This
1:13
Speaker 1: is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a
1:16
Speaker 1: child adolescent psychiatry fellow.
1:18
Speaker 2: And I'm Medi Curio, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
1:22
Speaker 2: is here because we wanted to start a much need
1:23
Speaker 2: to conversation about mental health.
1:25
Speaker 1: Our goal is to teach you as much as we
1:27
Speaker 1: can by sharing our own experiences and interviewing experts in
1:30
Speaker 1: the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
1:33
Speaker 1: psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
1:37
Speaker 2: Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope
1:41
Speaker 2: you enjoy today's episode.
1:44
Speaker 1: MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia Mia, I
1:49
Speaker 1: Heart mir Well, Alisa, It's so nice to have you
1:54
Speaker 1: on the show because, to be quite honest, I loved
1:57
Speaker 1: the book and I thought it was one of the
1:59
Speaker 1: most insightful, real, raw, funny, informational books that I have
2:05
Speaker 1: read in a long time. And on our show, we
2:09
Speaker 1: really loved hearing stories, and Eddie and I in the
2:12
Speaker 1: past done episodes on how we have struggled with our
2:15
Speaker 1: own weight and body image, and so that was one
2:19
Speaker 1: of the reasons why we love this book so much.
2:21
Speaker 1: So we really appreciate you being here. Tell us your story.
2:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, weight has been a primary part of my identity.
2:31
Speaker 3: Being fat as a child, being fat in a family
2:34
Speaker 3: where not everybody was viewing it as problematic, Receiving messages
2:42
Speaker 3: that it wasn't acceptable across all different domains in my
2:44
Speaker 3: life really got to me. I tried to do dieting,
2:50
Speaker 3: I tried to do self work, I tried to meet
2:53
Speaker 3: with mental health support, and it just never really seemed
2:56
Speaker 3: like I had acceptance for me, or that I had
2:59
Speaker 3: acceptance from society as to who I was. And I
3:03
Speaker 3: can't tell you how many weight loss attempts I made
3:06
Speaker 3: throughout my upbringing into my twenties, assuming I could find
3:11
Speaker 3: love once I was skinny, assuming I could find success
3:14
Speaker 3: once I was skinny, assuming all of these beautiful outcomes
3:16
Speaker 3: would be the result of changing my body. And that
3:21
Speaker 3: happened for a long time, until finally I just was
3:26
Speaker 3: fed up with how much pain and kind of a
3:33
Speaker 3: lack of understanding from everyone around me, including myself, about
3:37
Speaker 3: what a healthy body image, what a healthy weight would
3:40
Speaker 3: be for me, and how much of a chance I
3:44
Speaker 3: had to even achieve that. Whatever it was. So I
3:49
Speaker 3: feel like that's where my story is is kind of
3:52
Speaker 3: in that pursuit to try to figure it out, and
3:56
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, I don't think I figured
3:57
Speaker 3: it out yet. I think it's an ongoing story. I
4:01
Speaker 3: think that the work I do with my patients today
4:03
Speaker 3: continues to write it. And I'm pretty humbled by it
4:07
Speaker 3: because I don't think there's one clear answer for everybody.
4:11
Speaker 2: Real I love it. When I told Justin that I
4:15
Speaker 2: read this book, I like, I don't even know where
4:17
Speaker 2: to start with it. I'll throw it in there. I
4:18
Speaker 2: don't want to get too like sidetracked and be like, fuck,
4:21
Speaker 2: this was great and I love this and we'll get there.
4:23
Speaker 2: But you talked about it a little bit. I think
4:26
Speaker 2: you mentioned it on your website and in the book too.
4:28
Speaker 2: I mean just kind of like your journey to get
4:31
Speaker 2: in here. And I think we can assume from the
4:33
Speaker 2: book in your website that life experiences have kind of
4:36
Speaker 2: led to where you're at now as a psychologist. But
4:39
Speaker 2: can you fill in the gaps too, of like what
4:41
Speaker 2: got us here? What got you to be and a psychologist?
4:44
Speaker 2: I think I saw recently on your Instagram that you
4:45
Speaker 2: passed one of the exams too, So congratulations on that
4:50
Speaker 2: but yeah, walk us through the journey of becoming a psychologist.
4:55
Speaker 3: It's kind of exciting because this is the first interview
4:57
Speaker 3: I participated in since becoming a psychologist.
4:59
Speaker 2: Let's call.
5:01
Speaker 3: When I read that question, I'm like, yeah, we're here.
5:07
Speaker 3: It's been a long time. It's been a lot of work.
5:10
Speaker 3: I think the main thing is is, through my own difficulty,
5:14
Speaker 3: I could never find a healthcare provider that provided the
5:19
Speaker 3: support that I needed, Like they would provide eating disorder
5:23
Speaker 3: support or depression support, or here's a nutritionist to make
5:29
Speaker 3: you less fat, or here's a nature path to try
5:32
Speaker 3: to address you know, your your hormones, or to try
5:35
Speaker 3: to address you know the food that you're choosing. I mean,
5:37
Speaker 3: I tried so many different types of providers, and I
5:40
Speaker 3: often felt fat shamed, but never really felt understood or
5:46
Speaker 3: felt that I was able to do the work that
5:48
Speaker 3: I felt like I needed to do in order to
5:50
Speaker 3: understand me in my body, fat or less fat. So
5:54
Speaker 3: I decided to become what I was looking for, which
5:58
Speaker 3: is why I went through all the education I did
6:00
Speaker 3: in search of trying to figure out what that would require.
6:03
Speaker 3: And I think I got there, and I think I
6:06
Speaker 3: hope that's the type of support I provide to my
6:08
Speaker 3: clients today.
6:10
Speaker 2: I know there's different tracks for psychologists. There's you know,
6:13
Speaker 2: there's like forensic and child aholescent. Would you consider yourself
6:17
Speaker 2: to be like a health psychologist? Do you feel like
6:20
Speaker 2: that word's okay to use with with where you're kind
6:22
Speaker 2: of aiming with your work? What do you think?
6:24
Speaker 3: So they're very particular with when you can say health psychologists,
6:27
Speaker 3: So I can't actually claim that status yet. So I
6:32
Speaker 3: think that's going to be my next little venture. So
6:36
Speaker 3: I want to sit at this summit for a while
6:38
Speaker 3: embrace being a psychologist finally, but I can see that
6:41
Speaker 3: being in pursuit to pursue the certification to be able
6:44
Speaker 3: to identify as a health psychologist. But I definitely do
6:48
Speaker 3: work in health. Most of the folks that I work
6:50
Speaker 3: with have concerns with weight, have struggled with weight most
6:53
Speaker 3: of their life, are pursuing weight management, whether that's GLP
6:57
Speaker 3: one surgery, diet, exercise, or some mix sure of those. Yeah,
7:01
Speaker 3: And I work with them to remind them to do
7:04
Speaker 3: the work internally because a lot of them think they
7:07
Speaker 3: have but haven't. And so I think that's part of
7:10
Speaker 3: the health psychology that we're engaging in if you will,
7:13
Speaker 3: as a psychologist with a health emphasis as I always describe.
7:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's good. I mean we
7:20
Speaker 2: try to teach as much as we can on the
7:22
Speaker 2: show too, through different episodes, and like, yeah, nuances. You know,
7:25
Speaker 2: we've talked about like being an art therapist, right, there's
7:28
Speaker 2: there's specific things you have to do to be considered
7:31
Speaker 2: an art therapist. Yes, if you don't do those things,
7:33
Speaker 2: you can do therapeutic art making, but you're not an
7:37
Speaker 2: art therapist, right, So I think that's cool. I appreciate
7:40
Speaker 2: you explaining that justin I'm gonna jump to the next
7:42
Speaker 2: one because this was one that just stood out. You know,
7:44
Speaker 2: in researching and getting ready for today's episode. There's an
7:49
Speaker 2: interview that you were doing. And I'm really bad at
7:52
Speaker 2: like remembering celebrities names, and I'm pretty sure this person
7:55
Speaker 2: was like a celebrity that was doing the interviewing. But
7:58
Speaker 2: no disrespect to them, it's just my own fault. But
8:01
Speaker 2: they talked about this idea of like they mentioned the
8:04
Speaker 2: F word, and I was like, oh, okay, fuck, like
8:06
Speaker 2: that's you know, the bad word, F word whatever, But
8:09
Speaker 2: then it was clear that he meant the word fat,
8:12
Speaker 2: And I wasn't like I knew what the interview was about.
8:16
Speaker 2: It was about the book. The book is called The
8:18
Speaker 2: T Shirt Swim Club, Like there's there's it's about body
8:21
Speaker 2: weight and fat, fatness and all of that. But when
8:24
Speaker 2: you've guys finally said the word, I was like, it
8:27
Speaker 2: almost felt like worse than the other F word. And
8:29
Speaker 2: I think that's just kind of how like society programs
8:32
Speaker 2: us a little bit of like that that's just a
8:34
Speaker 2: bad word to use. But I really appreciated how passionate
8:37
Speaker 2: you were and trying to reclaim the word. So can
8:39
Speaker 2: you talk a little more on just your thoughts of
8:42
Speaker 2: reclaiming the F word or reclaiming the word fat.
8:45
Speaker 3: I was so outraged that he said the F word
8:49
Speaker 3: because I was so thrown off. I'm like, what are
8:52
Speaker 3: we talking about? And then like in that interview, you
8:55
Speaker 3: actually see a click for me, me realizing that he's
8:58
Speaker 3: referencing fat. And then I had to get it together
9:01
Speaker 3: and realized that I had to educate this person because
9:04
Speaker 3: fatness should not be a bad word. There should not
9:07
Speaker 3: be stigma against a descriptor. And my brother and I
9:10
Speaker 3: kind of mock at it through the book of like
9:12
Speaker 3: these different chapters with different ways to describe fatness and
9:15
Speaker 3: all these different adjectives. But my brother and I when
9:18
Speaker 3: we started writing this book, we use the word fat intentionally, frequently,
9:24
Speaker 3: kind of aggressively to be able to reclaim it, because
9:27
Speaker 3: it is our word. It's one of many words, and
9:30
Speaker 3: it's not like we can hide from fatness, like it's
9:34
Speaker 3: here in front of us, it's here today, it's here
9:36
Speaker 3: to stay likely And so I take it as my
9:40
Speaker 3: responsibility to be able to reclaim that power and to
9:44
Speaker 3: be able to identify as fat. I mean, gosh, for
9:47
Speaker 3: so many years I tried to like not show my fatness,
9:52
Speaker 3: as if it was something a T shirt could hide,
9:54
Speaker 3: when in reality, it's like, yeah, that is part of me.
9:56
Speaker 3: I'm a fat person. I'm also a fat and healthy person.
10:00
Speaker 3: I'm also a fat and brilliant person. I'm also a
10:03
Speaker 3: fat and kind person. And these are I'm fat and
10:05
Speaker 3: beautiful and a lot of times when you're fat, you
10:09
Speaker 3: don't get to be those things. At least that's what
10:10
Speaker 3: the word, or the stigma behind the word, has taught us.
10:14
Speaker 3: So with my patients, I have support groups, I have
10:17
Speaker 3: individual therapy, and with them, I try to say like
10:20
Speaker 3: own it. You know, it's okay. It doesn't mean that
10:23
Speaker 3: you're failing. It doesn't mean that you're excluded from society.
10:28
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that you don't get to eat and
10:30
Speaker 3: enjoy that cake, or eat and enjoy that pistachio or
10:33
Speaker 3: those almonds. Like it's okay. And I really want to
10:37
Speaker 3: encourage that and encourage myself again, I'm still writing that
10:40
Speaker 3: story for myself, so it's it's work. I mean, it's
10:45
Speaker 3: not going to happen overnight, but I'm definitely determined to
10:48
Speaker 3: make it happen.
10:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're reclaiming the word fat really seems akin to
10:54
Speaker 1: the lgbt QI A two s plus reclaiming the word
10:57
Speaker 1: queer or like. At first you hear those words, and
11:00
Speaker 1: even reading the book, I was like, oh, they're using
11:02
Speaker 1: that word a lot. I felt myself kind of internally
11:05
Speaker 1: wincing even just reading the way you refer it. But
11:08
Speaker 1: over time my reaction got less and less and less,
11:12
Speaker 1: and I think and I was just thinking, that's the
11:14
Speaker 1: whole point. That's exactly what you and your brother Ian
11:17
Speaker 1: were trying to do with this. In your journey, We're
11:22
Speaker 1: all about like shouting out people who have brought us
11:25
Speaker 1: to where we are in the show. Who have your
11:28
Speaker 1: biggest influences be? Who would you shout out right now?
11:31
Speaker 1: Who have helped you along the way, understand yourself and
11:35
Speaker 1: help you get here in your career too.
11:37
Speaker 3: Definitely, my brother Ian and I hysterically did not talk
11:43
Speaker 3: about our bodies or our fatness through it. It was
11:48
Speaker 3: as if we were keeping the secret from one another,
11:50
Speaker 3: even though we were both in the fatness side by
11:52
Speaker 3: side at those tables with our grandparents in those fat
11:55
Speaker 3: shaming moments, but we didn't want to talk about it.
11:58
Speaker 3: But since then we've definitely grown a lot more comfortable
12:01
Speaker 3: with it. My mother, who we references Saint Sue in
12:04
Speaker 3: the book, has always, always, always encouraged me to assert myself,
12:09
Speaker 3: and I think I mentioned a few pretty important stories
12:14
Speaker 3: in our book where she really did encourage me to
12:17
Speaker 3: fight and own my space and educate providers when they
12:22
Speaker 3: weren't being fair towards my weight. My husband has been
12:27
Speaker 3: like beyond accommodating of my career path and my pursuit.
12:33
Speaker 3: I mean, I am one fierce woman professionally and personally,
12:36
Speaker 3: and he loves that and he supports that and lifts
12:40
Speaker 3: me up and never makes me feel bad about it,
12:43
Speaker 3: never questions my strange ambitions. I'm going to write a book.
12:48
Speaker 3: Howes that sound like I'm going to go get my doctorate?
12:51
Speaker 3: Is that cool?
12:52
Speaker 2: Like?
12:52
Speaker 3: Can we move for like a year away from our life?
12:55
Speaker 3: Can we uproot? Is that cool of you? So it's
12:58
Speaker 3: been pretty remarkable to have such a supportive partner, and
13:00
Speaker 3: I'm super stoked now to have a child to try
13:04
Speaker 3: and implement everything that I've learned and understand and learn
13:07
Speaker 3: from what I did and what my experience was, and
13:09
Speaker 3: try to provide her with a different reality where she
13:12
Speaker 3: can't use the word fat, where she can be proud
13:15
Speaker 3: of her body and her personality and herself without feeling
13:18
Speaker 3: shameful the way that I did. So I think those
13:20
Speaker 3: are probably the top runners that I would name. Yeah,
13:24
Speaker 3: I love.
13:24
Speaker 2: It if you haven't read the book yet, or if
13:26
Speaker 2: you're interested in reading the book. For any of the listeners,
13:29
Speaker 2: it's kind of split up into two sections, right like
13:31
Speaker 2: Ian is in the beginning and then you're the second
13:34
Speaker 2: half of the book. But it was really interesting how
13:36
Speaker 2: while you guys had your two separate halves, you guys
13:39
Speaker 2: would kind of relate on similar topics or similar experiences,
13:43
Speaker 2: And for me, there was a lot of like light
13:44
Speaker 2: bulb moments of like damn, so that's not just me,
13:47
Speaker 2: or like we're in this, like we're in the same boat,
13:50
Speaker 2: Like that's that was really normalizing for me to read
13:53
Speaker 2: that a bunch of times and not just like one
13:55
Speaker 2: or two, but it felt like the whole book. So
13:58
Speaker 2: I guess my question is going through that was the
14:00
Speaker 2: process like writing this book with your brother, Like was
14:03
Speaker 2: it like you go first, I go second, was it
14:06
Speaker 2: let's go kind of at the same time? Like and
14:07
Speaker 2: I know for year half there was a lot of
14:10
Speaker 2: like references and like research and like a lot of
14:13
Speaker 2: it was kind of like more like that academic side,
14:16
Speaker 2: but also like really easy to understand and digest, which
14:19
Speaker 2: I thought was really cool. But like, what was that process?
14:21
Speaker 3: Like it was very messy. Yeah, we had a very
14:29
Speaker 3: clear plan when we went into the book proposal, and
14:32
Speaker 3: that probably changed a dozen times through writing it, just
14:36
Speaker 3: because you know, it's the human experience that we were describing,
14:40
Speaker 3: and we all know how clean that isn't you know.
14:42
Speaker 3: It's such a unique thing and kind of a hot
14:45
Speaker 3: topic but also really taboo, and so they wanted us
14:50
Speaker 3: to be relatable, and my brother's great at that. I'm
14:54
Speaker 3: great at that, but very differently. He's an entertainer. He
14:57
Speaker 3: knows how to read the room and entertain to it,
14:59
Speaker 3: and I'm good at one on one and advocacy. So
15:03
Speaker 3: we tried to take our specialties and put it into
15:06
Speaker 3: an organized piece. And I also sometimes recommend people read
15:12
Speaker 3: his chapter followed by my version of the chapter, if
15:14
Speaker 3: that makes sense. It makes a little bit more. There's
15:18
Speaker 3: a little bit more like linearity to it. There's more
15:20
Speaker 3: connection because I kind of referenced him as like a
15:24
Speaker 3: case study, if you will, and I appreciate what you say.
15:27
Speaker 3: There's definitely heavy research in my section, very dissertation like,
15:31
Speaker 3: because there is a lot of research, and it was
15:33
Speaker 3: really hard to try to be doctor Alisa Carmel but
15:36
Speaker 3: also Alisa and I really wanted to make sure my
15:40
Speaker 3: voice came through while also providing something for people to
15:44
Speaker 3: lean on to be like, oh, this is why that
15:46
Speaker 3: is being said, or this is why I feel that way.
15:48
Speaker 3: This research says so. And it was difficult to do so,
15:52
Speaker 3: but I think that with the right support and the
15:54
Speaker 3: right editing, we got to a place that felt really good.
15:56
Speaker 2: In a world where it feels scary to yourself first
16:00
Speaker 2: and take care of yourself, and like something like going
16:03
Speaker 2: to the doctor because of negative experiences that I think
16:05
Speaker 2: you guys both reference and having, and I relate it
16:08
Speaker 2: to that so much. I just remember thinking growing up,
16:10
Speaker 2: how many times I'd go to the doctor and they'd
16:13
Speaker 2: basically just tell me the same thing and just leaving
16:15
Speaker 2: feeling like so defeated as an eleven twelve year old
16:19
Speaker 2: of like damn, this doctor just kind of shit on me,
16:21
Speaker 2: and I'm a little kid, like this really sucks. And
16:24
Speaker 2: I think both of you referenced it at one point
16:27
Speaker 2: of just again, yeah, the importance of we are allowed
16:29
Speaker 2: to take care of ourselves. And I think maybe even
16:31
Speaker 2: Ian specifically said, like go to the doctor, like you
16:35
Speaker 2: go to the doctor. It's important, and I will say
16:38
Speaker 2: I think so. I just checked my good Reads. I
16:39
Speaker 2: finished the book on September eighth, and I think with
16:42
Speaker 2: a lot of thinking and a lot of processing of
16:44
Speaker 2: just like after that book, I did recently go to
16:47
Speaker 2: the doctor after a few years of not going just
16:49
Speaker 2: because of like fear and like worry. So I appreciate
16:53
Speaker 2: that a lot, and I think the book will please
16:56
Speaker 2: do it really did push me in that direction. It
16:59
Speaker 2: had been a few years since I'd gone, and just
17:01
Speaker 2: like wrestling back and forth of like the doctor and like, shit,
17:05
Speaker 2: what are they gonna tell me? What are they gonna
17:06
Speaker 2: what are they gonna shoot on me for this time?
17:08
Speaker 3: And was it as bad as you thought it would be?
17:10
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't, And I'm glad. I went and shout
17:13
Speaker 2: out doctor, doctor Hayes. He's a resident and we had
17:16
Speaker 2: a good conversation and it went really well and it
17:19
Speaker 2: was cool. He was super, super nice. We just had
17:22
Speaker 2: a good, good talk, good plan of you know, continuing
17:24
Speaker 2: on on some good lifestyle changes and that we could
17:27
Speaker 2: agree on. And yeah, this is the part that I
17:30
Speaker 2: really wanted to share, and I didn't write it in
17:31
Speaker 2: the notes because I figured it would come up. But yeah,
17:34
Speaker 2: for anyone listening, you know it's in the book. We'll
17:37
Speaker 2: tell you too. For a miliariy mental health channel, go
17:39
Speaker 2: take care of yourselves. It's okay to go to the doctor,
17:41
Speaker 2: and you deserve that.
17:43
Speaker 1: And I want to add to that point too, where
17:46
Speaker 1: you know, as a clinical child and adolescent psychiatrist, I
17:49
Speaker 1: have a decent amount of people that come in and say, oh,
17:52
Speaker 1: we were seeing a different provider, but all they ever
17:55
Speaker 1: focused on was the wait. And I'm a mental health
17:58
Speaker 1: capacity and still people well that's all they focus on.
18:02
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's our medicines that's increasing the weight in
18:05
Speaker 1: these young people too. And my favorite chapter of Yours, Eliza,
18:11
Speaker 1: is when you talk about how you met a new
18:13
Speaker 1: doctor had explained all of your research and how you
18:17
Speaker 1: were trying to decrease the stigma around fatness. You're trying
18:22
Speaker 1: to change the way providers and doctors talk to their patients.
18:25
Speaker 1: And he's still fat shamed you in the appointment And
18:30
Speaker 1: I just like reading this book. My job dropped. And
18:34
Speaker 1: I know this is a cheesy question. What were your
18:37
Speaker 1: feelings and emotions in the moment.
18:39
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I'm getting heated, just like hearing you
18:42
Speaker 3: talk about it. I was, you know, I I I
18:49
Speaker 3: was fat shamed again, which silenced me, which I It's
18:54
Speaker 3: so funny. My dog recently got fat shamed. We went
18:58
Speaker 3: to the veterinarian and he had a yeast Infectioniziar and
19:02
Speaker 3: the dog or the dog the veterinarian went straight to
19:04
Speaker 3: thinking that he had a weight problem. Was and I
19:07
Speaker 3: went off on the veterinarian just complete like sympathetic nervous
19:13
Speaker 3: system overload, just like what is wrong, you know? And
19:16
Speaker 3: the veterinarian is like, well, how else would you like
19:17
Speaker 3: me to talk about it? And I couldn't even come
19:19
Speaker 3: up with an alternative. In the moment, I was so
19:23
Speaker 3: angry and riled up and hurt and disappointed and surprised
19:27
Speaker 3: and all of these emotions at the same time. My
19:30
Speaker 3: husband asked me to leave. I did, and then I
19:33
Speaker 3: was pacing and trying to think, like this happened again.
19:36
Speaker 3: I'm having the same emotions provoked that happened in that
19:39
Speaker 3: appointment for my dog, who probably doesn't know what we're
19:44
Speaker 3: talking about, but I do. And I still can't speak
19:48
Speaker 3: up in this moment. I have all this education, this
19:50
Speaker 3: is what I do for a living, and I can't
19:52
Speaker 3: speak up. And I think that's what irritates me the
19:55
Speaker 3: most out of that is that despite all of that,
19:58
Speaker 3: I can't speak up. I feel sa island. And what
20:03
Speaker 3: about the people who don't have the education? M Yeah,
20:06
Speaker 3: what about the people who don't have that advocacy personality
20:09
Speaker 3: or don't have that desire to change the white central culture?
20:12
Speaker 3: What about those folks? Do they just receive it? And yeah, Okay,
20:16
Speaker 3: that's true, I am fat or what have you. And
20:19
Speaker 3: so I guess that's what happens to me, is I
20:21
Speaker 3: get in this rumination just like a distraught of like,
20:24
Speaker 3: this is a problem, this is this is a huge problem,
20:28
Speaker 3: and how do we fix that? How do we change
20:31
Speaker 3: these narratives that these agendas that come at innocent folks
20:35
Speaker 3: who are trying to just go to take care of
20:37
Speaker 3: their health. And I think that's a really hard question
20:40
Speaker 3: to answer, but I'm trying to work on it.
20:42
Speaker 2: Just you guys book this conversation. My hope is that
20:45
Speaker 2: we can kind of move in that direction. And I
20:47
Speaker 2: think the hard part is then we can get into
20:49
Speaker 2: the conversation of like why does it need to fall
20:51
Speaker 2: on us to like try to make that change and
20:53
Speaker 2: not other people to try to help us on that.
20:56
Speaker 2: But I I again, I think personally, the book really
21:00
Speaker 2: impactful for me. So I appreciate that a lot.
21:03
Speaker 3: You know, I've noticed that teaching might be a necessary
21:06
Speaker 3: angle too, So I've started a course at the local
21:10
Speaker 3: Natural Medicine university and hopefully I can get in that
21:13
Speaker 3: way and just help people learn maybe different ways to communicate. Right,
21:18
Speaker 3: I think communication can be a really easy route.
21:22
Speaker 1: Because it feels like in our society we pride ourselves
21:26
Speaker 1: on how forward thinking we are, how progressive we are.
21:29
Speaker 1: I mean maybe about half the country, but there are
21:32
Speaker 1: these different groups of people that have their moments, and
21:35
Speaker 1: we're getting better. Although we have progress on trans people,
21:39
Speaker 1: on gay rights, on people of color, but it still
21:44
Speaker 1: feels like fat people there's open season, like people can
21:48
Speaker 1: say whatever they want, they can be bullied still for
21:50
Speaker 1: being fat. It seems like for some reason, that's the
21:53
Speaker 1: one that's still kind of stuck in the past. So
21:57
Speaker 1: I love that you're having this conversation because it doesn't
22:01
Speaker 1: feel like it's been had yet or it had nearly enough.
22:06
Speaker 1: And to build on that. The way we talk to
22:09
Speaker 1: young people about their weight is so important. And I
22:13
Speaker 1: know you guys have like listed in the book specifics
22:17
Speaker 1: for how to speak to young people about their weight.
22:21
Speaker 1: But I'm curious that what are your favorites, what do
22:22
Speaker 1: you feel like have been the most impactful, the most
22:24
Speaker 1: useful in your life?
22:26
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, how do we bring weight into
22:29
Speaker 3: the conversation? You know, Like I for me, I'll due
22:33
Speaker 3: respect to my family, it was brought in as year
22:37
Speaker 3: overweight and I was like, well, what's the other Like,
22:40
Speaker 3: what are my options here? And I had never been
22:43
Speaker 3: talked to about weight until I was told that I
22:46
Speaker 3: was doing it wrong. So then what angle do you
22:49
Speaker 3: go from there? You know, if a child is introduced
22:52
Speaker 3: to a topic as no, that's wrong, then then how
22:55
Speaker 3: do they even understand the topic? So it shouldn't be
23:01
Speaker 3: a weapon. It shouldn't be It shouldn't be a way
23:04
Speaker 3: to make kids feel awful, because there's enough things that
23:06
Speaker 3: make children feel badly. And it should be a safe
23:11
Speaker 3: conversation and it should be a conversation that starts not
23:15
Speaker 3: from an angle of judgment, expectation, and fear or stigmatizing
23:22
Speaker 3: the word fat. Also, it should be brought up just
23:25
Speaker 3: as other concepts are brought up. Let's talk about the
23:27
Speaker 3: weather and how we check temperatures on that. Let's bring
23:30
Speaker 3: up weight and how we check a temperature on that. Like,
23:33
Speaker 3: there's a lot of different ways that you can bring
23:35
Speaker 3: it into a conversation with a child that isn't accusational,
23:40
Speaker 3: that isn't judgmental, and isn't designed to make them feel
23:44
Speaker 3: like they need to diet, you know, and it's I
23:46
Speaker 3: get a lot of parents who are how do I
23:47
Speaker 3: get my kids to eat healthy. It's like it's the
23:49
Speaker 3: same concept. Like my child won't eat anything but cheese
23:52
Speaker 3: right now. That's the only thing she'll eat no matter what. Okay,
24:00
Speaker 3: so what do I do, Like do I get hung
24:02
Speaker 3: up on that? And no, no, no, And here's broccoli,
24:06
Speaker 3: Like that's not going to work, you know. So coming
24:09
Speaker 3: at it from an angle of curiosity compassion and connecting
24:14
Speaker 3: them with her body, I think is really big. I mean,
24:17
Speaker 3: I didn't really know my body besides it was bad
24:20
Speaker 3: and that it was overweight, and those were the qualities
24:23
Speaker 3: I knew. So teaching them, you know, all the parts
24:25
Speaker 3: of your body. There's a great book that I was
24:27
Speaker 3: reading to my daughter that I'm going to read to
24:29
Speaker 3: her every day of her life if I can. I
24:32
Speaker 3: Love all of me and it goes into like every
24:35
Speaker 3: part of your body and how to be different in
24:37
Speaker 3: all the ways. And I think that's gorgeous, Like we
24:40
Speaker 3: need to have that. I didn't have that. So you
24:43
Speaker 3: know what advice do I have for adults talking to
24:45
Speaker 3: kids about weight? Don't wait till it's a problem and
24:50
Speaker 3: talk to them about it neutraally, because it's just another
24:52
Speaker 3: metric and they should.
24:53
Speaker 1: Know that, Yeah, my little one loves cheese. Some reason,
25:02
Speaker 1: it's very palatable for the toddler. It must be he's
25:08
Speaker 1: learning where it's like crazy, but he will just go cheese.
25:11
Speaker 1: Cheese just loves it. Every nearly wants a little bit
25:17
Speaker 1: of cheese. O.
25:18
Speaker 3: Man, it's so hard. We just stayed with my mother
25:20
Speaker 3: for a month. Our kitchen was getting renovated, and she
25:24
Speaker 3: just I'd come out and there'd be like four different
25:27
Speaker 3: kinds of cheeses on her plate and I'd be like, ma,
25:31
Speaker 3: what are you doing. She'd be like, she wanted a
25:32
Speaker 3: piece of I'm like, you were so nanning her so
25:35
Speaker 3: hard right now, I can't. She's like, stay away, go
25:39
Speaker 3: back to your sessions.
25:40
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, grandparents are the biggest enablers.
25:45
Speaker 2: It's wild. You know. One chapter that I had to
25:50
Speaker 2: go back and relook at because it's the one that
25:53
Speaker 2: I kept thinking of was yours. That was the aspirations
25:57
Speaker 2: can hinder inspiration, and it I think it stood out
26:01
Speaker 2: a lot because as I was reading, I was like, damn,
26:03
Speaker 2: there's definitely some clothes in my closet that I like
26:05
Speaker 2: hang on to of like maybe one day again. But
26:09
Speaker 2: just by the end of it, just the way you
26:10
Speaker 2: were able to talk about just how like, as we
26:13
Speaker 2: get older, our bodies change, we don't have to get
26:17
Speaker 2: back to that, like we may never get back to
26:19
Speaker 2: that certain type of body, and like just how much
26:23
Speaker 2: basically like the basic thing of like how much these
26:25
Speaker 2: like maybe potentially unattainable goals can just ultimately hold this back.
26:30
Speaker 2: And I thought the way you talked about it was
26:32
Speaker 2: so cool and so helpful for me. And again I
26:35
Speaker 2: was like, damn, I know exactly what clothes I'm kind
26:37
Speaker 2: of hanging on to, And it really made me think.
26:39
Speaker 2: And again I think it really contributed to kind of
26:43
Speaker 2: decisions going forward that were helpful for me because of
26:46
Speaker 2: reading it. But I just wonder what thoughts you have
26:49
Speaker 2: about like the psychology around clothes and getting dressed. You
26:54
Speaker 2: touched on it a little bit in the chapter, But
26:56
Speaker 2: what what do you think would be good for our
26:57
Speaker 2: listeners to hear.
26:59
Speaker 3: We can sometimes the most cruel to ourselves. So many
27:04
Speaker 3: of my patients when they start working with me, they
27:07
Speaker 3: have some outfit that they really you know, miss or
27:10
Speaker 3: that the brides I need to get into this wedding dress,
27:16
Speaker 3: or I you know, there's this wedding dress that I
27:18
Speaker 3: really want to buy, or the postpart of moms who
27:22
Speaker 3: you know, they had a body and then they had
27:24
Speaker 3: a baby and now they have this body, or the
27:28
Speaker 3: folks who have gone through a weight loss surgery and
27:31
Speaker 3: the results weren't what they wanted them to be, or
27:34
Speaker 3: they've been on a weight loss journey and they just
27:36
Speaker 3: can't seem to get to that high school whatever weight
27:39
Speaker 3: that they keep referencing as their happy times, right, they
27:43
Speaker 3: connect weight to a memory of a mood when I
27:47
Speaker 3: was skinny. He loved me when I was skinny, things
27:50
Speaker 3: were easier. And then they connect that to their clothing, right,
27:54
Speaker 3: like there's an outfit I want to wear, and it's
27:56
Speaker 3: as if this outfit is the ticket to their happiness.
27:59
Speaker 3: And it turns out that's not true. It turns out
28:05
Speaker 3: that there's so many other variables that contribute to our happiness.
28:08
Speaker 3: It just seems that closes like the token, the ticket,
28:12
Speaker 3: if you will, to that happiness. And so I don't
28:15
Speaker 3: know about you guys, but I have a couple bins
28:18
Speaker 3: in my mudroom. Some of them are these sizes when
28:20
Speaker 3: I was this side, when I was this sage and
28:24
Speaker 3: doing this diet, and some of them were from my
28:26
Speaker 3: fatter days. And this is you probably don't have a
28:28
Speaker 3: maternity box, but I have a maternity box, and I,
28:32
Speaker 3: you know, I have a lot of different boxes of
28:34
Speaker 3: clothing and I'm hanging on to them. Why. I don't know.
28:38
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's hope. I don't know if
28:40
Speaker 3: it's disappointment. I don't know if it's you know, some
28:46
Speaker 3: sort of some reasoning that I haven't really explored yet.
28:49
Speaker 3: But I think many of us have some version of that,
28:52
Speaker 3: and I think unpacking that, both literally and figuratively, could
28:55
Speaker 3: be really helpful for folks. And a lot of times
28:58
Speaker 3: people say, if I could just fit into whatever clothing
29:01
Speaker 3: it is, things would be different. And maybe, but as
29:05
Speaker 3: I try to say in the book, that change doesn't
29:08
Speaker 3: necessarily guarantee the outcome that you think. And sometimes we
29:13
Speaker 3: can get to that outcome in a different way, but
29:15
Speaker 3: maybe not, maybe never. And what would that mean to you?
29:19
Speaker 3: Are you defeated now? Or is there a different way
29:22
Speaker 3: you can look at yourself? Is there a different way
29:23
Speaker 3: you can interact with your body and your wardrobe in
29:26
Speaker 3: a way that makes you actually feel worthy? So I
29:29
Speaker 3: think it's complicated, and I think the conversations need to
29:34
Speaker 3: be had, and a lot of folks aren't having them.
29:37
Speaker 2: I think that's just so helpful to hear from you,
29:39
Speaker 2: that part when you're saying, like, you know, why do
29:42
Speaker 2: I have these clothes and that I don't know them. Damn,
29:45
Speaker 2: I feel you on that. I think I've had that
29:47
Speaker 2: conversation with myself. And yeah, again, that chapter just stood
29:52
Speaker 2: out so much to me, and I appreciate it, and
29:53
Speaker 2: I appreciate the way you wrote about it.
29:56
Speaker 3: Thank you.
29:57
Speaker 1: If someone is thinking about making a change or trying
30:02
Speaker 1: to be more open and accepting of who they are,
30:05
Speaker 1: what their body looks like, what would you recommend as
30:08
Speaker 1: first steps to people in this journey?
30:12
Speaker 3: What's motivating your desire to make that change? I mean truly,
30:17
Speaker 3: like there's the surface answer which I get at the
30:21
Speaker 3: intake usually, which is that my doctor told me I
30:24
Speaker 3: have high blood pressure, or I have significant pain, or
30:28
Speaker 3: I need to a knee replacement and I can't until
30:30
Speaker 3: I get to this weight, or I have an event
30:34
Speaker 3: that somebody who will judge me will see me and
30:38
Speaker 3: if I look one way, then they'll be kinder or
30:41
Speaker 3: not right. But then when we get underneath that, I
30:44
Speaker 3: like to unpack people's weight stories and when weight even
30:47
Speaker 3: became relevant to them, when they found out that who
30:50
Speaker 3: they were wasn't okay, what they looked like wasn't okay.
30:53
Speaker 3: Who told that to them? Was it a caregiver? Was
30:56
Speaker 3: it an important relationship? Intimate relationship? And I know that
31:01
Speaker 3: you asked kind of a very pointed question of what
31:03
Speaker 3: is the first step, But I think the first step
31:06
Speaker 3: has a lot of mini steps of identifying what the
31:09
Speaker 3: roots of all of this is and are those roots
31:12
Speaker 3: something they're willing to uncover, like are they willing to
31:15
Speaker 3: do that work? And some people aren't, some people aren't.
31:19
Speaker 1: One of my favorite parts, and you mentioned this earlier
31:21
Speaker 1: of the book, was that in between chapters, you guys
31:26
Speaker 1: discuss the different names that are often associated with people
31:30
Speaker 1: who are overweight, Like for me, growing up, I was
31:34
Speaker 1: called husky And that was a part of the book
31:37
Speaker 1: where we talk about the word husky and using it
31:39
Speaker 1: for and I just that hit so hard. You already
31:44
Speaker 1: mentioned that you were told that you were overweight when
31:46
Speaker 1: you were young, But what are the words that you
31:48
Speaker 1: remember that described you when you were a kid that's
31:50
Speaker 1: still that still are there that you still feel.
31:54
Speaker 3: So that's a good question. I was nailed with fat,
31:59
Speaker 3: but it wasn't. It was from this question came up
32:06
Speaker 3: in an earlier interview. But the first time I realized
32:09
Speaker 3: I was fat and that it was bad was when
32:11
Speaker 3: I was a cheerleader doing junior cheer for a football
32:15
Speaker 3: team and one of the football players called me fat
32:19
Speaker 3: in front of the entire football team my cheer squad,
32:23
Speaker 3: and I was startled. I was shook, I was completely
32:28
Speaker 3: My purity just left the building. I was like, oh,
32:32
Speaker 3: this is not okay. And then all of a sudden,
32:35
Speaker 3: everybody became judgment to me. So fatness was weaponized to
32:40
Speaker 3: me young, so whenever somebody called me fat, I felt
32:42
Speaker 3: that I was being attacked. And I think that's why
32:45
Speaker 3: it's so important to me now to help reclaim that word.
32:49
Speaker 3: I remember when like Abercrombie and Fitch and Hollister came
32:52
Speaker 3: out with their clothing and I tried so desperately to
32:54
Speaker 3: fit into them, and they didn't offer sizes that fit
32:57
Speaker 3: my body. And then Mervin's and Target and nord Strum
33:00
Speaker 3: started coming up with plus size, and then I was like, oh,
33:03
Speaker 3: maybe I can fit into that, and so I thought
33:05
Speaker 3: plus size was hope, but then also that was weaponized.
33:08
Speaker 3: So I think those were the two descriptors that were
33:13
Speaker 3: part of my awareness and the ones that I use.
33:16
Speaker 3: But again I tried to hide from both of them,
33:18
Speaker 3: and I think a lot of people do.
33:20
Speaker 2: Mervins is a throwback.
33:23
Speaker 1: I'n't heard that a while.
33:25
Speaker 2: We grew up in I almost feel like I go
33:32
Speaker 2: back to my like I can think of the Mervins
33:35
Speaker 2: that we went to, you know, where I grew up
33:37
Speaker 2: in the Bay Area, and like I think they if
33:40
Speaker 2: you think of like the first time, I'm trying to
33:42
Speaker 2: remember that, like I no longer wore like the kids size.
33:45
Speaker 2: I had to just go to like a smaller adult size,
33:49
Speaker 2: and just like that was that was significant and I
33:52
Speaker 2: think coupled with some negative doctor's appointments for for years
33:57
Speaker 2: at the same you know, years and years, that was
34:00
Speaker 2: pretty tough. I think I think of how much, like thankfully,
34:04
Speaker 2: and I know Ian talked about it too, but just
34:06
Speaker 2: like playing football, I think was really helpful because it
34:09
Speaker 2: was one of those things where it was like I
34:11
Speaker 2: was rewarded for being bigger essentially, and I was totally
34:14
Speaker 2: awarded for that, and that was like kind of the
34:16
Speaker 2: only time that that happened. So like from you know,
34:19
Speaker 2: it was seventh grade when I started playing whatever through
34:22
Speaker 2: when I finished in college, like that time was like
34:26
Speaker 2: Eddie big good, like that's a good thing. But then
34:28
Speaker 2: after that, no more good, like not a good thing,
34:32
Speaker 2: and I think, yeah, yeah.
34:34
Speaker 1: I would.
34:34
Speaker 3: I mean that's why I entered rugby. And I remember
34:40
Speaker 3: having a conversation with my brother in a pool wearing
34:42
Speaker 3: T shirts at some point in our youth where I
34:45
Speaker 3: was feeling so fat and so rejected, and he's like,
34:48
Speaker 3: screw cheerleading, like go to the field, you have it,
34:51
Speaker 3: use it. So I joined the rugby team and it
34:54
Speaker 3: was the first time my body felt like it was
34:57
Speaker 3: acceptable and encouraged and like appreciate. So I feel you
35:02
Speaker 3: on that like football good?
35:03
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, the hard part was only being five eight
35:07
Speaker 2: in a defensive lineman, like the football dream was ending
35:11
Speaker 2: at some point, like it was never and I knew
35:14
Speaker 2: that after I was like a sophomore like I'm not
35:16
Speaker 2: getting any taller. This is this is gonna be over soonish.
35:19
Speaker 2: So that's funny enough.
35:20
Speaker 3: I ended it for you. I couldn't keep up with
35:22
Speaker 3: the drinking that was required.
35:25
Speaker 2: I've heard.
35:28
Speaker 1: There's might be people party.
35:31
Speaker 3: I could not keep up. I couldn't What is it
35:35
Speaker 3: about that? Sports just a track like out of the
35:38
Speaker 3: Fleet to.
35:41
Speaker 2: That's where not into it. No, I got all my
35:48
Speaker 2: questions and my my thoughts shared and answered. We appreciate
35:52
Speaker 2: you so much coming on and letting us interview you,
35:55
Speaker 2: and uh, I think it's really cool that we got
35:57
Speaker 2: to read your book and we got to talk to
35:59
Speaker 2: super Ready.
36:01
Speaker 3: Thanks for reading the book.
36:03
Speaker 1: We're fanboying a little bit over being able to get
36:05
Speaker 1: pid you because honestly, it's it was one of the
36:09
Speaker 1: best books I've read in recent memory, because it was
36:13
Speaker 1: it was just so real and Ian's hilarious, and you've
36:17
Speaker 1: got so much perspective because we haven't mentioned it yet,
36:21
Speaker 1: but Ian used to be a writer on The Late
36:23
Speaker 1: Late Show with James Gordon, so and he's done a
36:26
Speaker 1: lot of stand up comedy and so it's just it
36:28
Speaker 1: has everything. You guys are a great one two punch.
36:31
Speaker 1: You guys are very different from each other, but it
36:35
Speaker 1: adds such a depth to the book that it was
36:38
Speaker 1: a joy to read.
36:39
Speaker 2: Truly, thank you.
36:41
Speaker 3: It was it was a dream to write it. I mean,
36:44
Speaker 3: it was really cool to write next to my brother,
36:47
Speaker 3: to do something together. It's something that we have so
36:49
Speaker 3: much passion about, and it means a lot to me
36:51
Speaker 3: that you guys took something from it. I mean it
36:54
Speaker 3: was really like our heart's run our sleep in this book.
36:56
Speaker 3: So the fact that it meant something, that it landed,
36:59
Speaker 3: and that hired you guys to even reach out to
37:01
Speaker 3: me about it, I mean, it's just a really honor
37:04
Speaker 3: to be able to talk with you guys about this.
37:07
Speaker 2: We appreciate you being here. I remember when Ian tweeted
37:10
Speaker 2: about it. I did the pre order on Amazon, So yeah,
37:13
Speaker 2: it's kind of it feels kind of full socalish to
37:16
Speaker 2: be to do that and to be here with you
37:19
Speaker 2: for our listeners. Where can they find you online? Social media?
37:23
Speaker 2: What would be helpful if anybody maybe in the area
37:26
Speaker 2: wants to reach out to you. Where can they find you?
37:29
Speaker 1: Yeah?
37:30
Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram. Doctor Elisa Carmel is my handle, and
37:34
Speaker 3: I have a website also, doctor earlysacarmel dot com. Yeah,
37:38
Speaker 3: and I'm an organ so I can do coaching throughout
37:41
Speaker 3: the country, throughout the world, really, and I work at
37:44
Speaker 3: a clinic here in Oregon, Psychological Services Connection, great little place,
37:48
Speaker 3: and I provide virtual support. So I'm your girl.
37:52
Speaker 1: I got you cool, and I might even be sending
37:55
Speaker 1: some people your way. So if you ever see like
37:57
Speaker 1: who and Wyoming is trying to get out home, that's me.
38:02
Speaker 2: That's my patience.
38:03
Speaker 3: Okay, I thank you. I appreciate that.
38:08
Speaker 2: Well. To our listeners. To doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you
38:12
Speaker 2: all for being here. Well, we'll play it out real
38:14
Speaker 2: quick and we'll wrap it up like we usually do
38:17
Speaker 2: for those listening. You know the deal Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
38:20
Speaker 2: Feel free to leave us a review. You can leave
38:22
Speaker 2: us a comment that we'll read later on social media
38:24
Speaker 2: at Millennial MHC and at our website Millennial MC dot com.
38:29
Speaker 2: Thank you again to doctor Lisa Carmel, thank you all
38:32
Speaker 2: for listening. Thank you all for just being here, and
38:34
Speaker 2: remember to take care of y'all mentals