Latest / Better Together / Why Prospecting Still Wins in Sales with Matt Nettleton
Transcript
- Kelly Sundsvold: Welcome to the Better Together podcast where real conversations fuel real business growth. I'm Kelly Sunsvold co-hosting with my partner in business and life, Sean Sunsvold. Today's guest is someone who knows exactly how to turn conversation into conversion, Nettleton. ⁓ a seasoned sales trainer, keynote speaker and host of the default profitable podcast. ⁓ president of Sandler DTB, Matt has helped close more than 3.2 billion in new revenue across industries like SaaS, staffing, agriculture, and entertainment. But what makes Matt stand out isn't just the numbers. It's his passion for building repeatable systems, empowering entrepreneurs, and reshaping how we think about sales. So whether you're just starting a business or scaling something big, get ready to take notes. ⁓ This will be a good conversation. I you'll want to replay. So welcome back. Matt Nettleton: Thanks, thanks for having me on. Looking forward to the reverse visit. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Yes, I was just on your podcast a few weeks ago. So I'm excited to, you know, dive into that one. So let's start with like big picture stuff. What is Sandler TDB and what do you do? Matt Nettleton: Yep. So Sandler is a, ⁓ well, it's the largest sales training organization in the world. I own the downtown Indianapolis office. And we work with businesses, you know, from one person companies, individuals that are high producing all the way through really big corporations where I've done, you know, sales training for companies like Salesforce and Toast and, you know, really big tech companies. And ⁓ we with, you know, traditional companies too, a lot of HVAC contractors. But basically we help them figure out how to take customer or prospect interest and turn it into revenue. And at the end of every session that we train, we put up a little form and we have everybody fill it out. You know, what'd you learn? And the final question is, can give us a dollar value for a sale that you've made using something you learned in class? And we do that at the end of every class. you you threw out that $3.2 billion number. Over the last 20 years, people have reported that they've made $3.2 billion in sales based on things that they've learned in Sandler Training that I've ⁓ So that's what we do. Kelly Sundsvold: That's amazing. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: That's awesome. So I'm curious, just kind of thinking about you and career and, you know, this is my first conversation with you. So I get to learn a little bit here. I'm going to guess sales kind of came naturally to you. Matt Nettleton: It did actually. got into sales by accident. I responded to a one ad that said, limited effort, good money, which ⁓ was my language. ⁓ I was in high school or I was in college. had just had my, so I'd always worked as an orderly in a hospital or loaded trucks doing things where I'm, you know, six foot two, played football. You know, they basically hired me to lift and move heavy things. Kelly Sundsvold: You ⁓ Matt Nettleton: That was my role in life. I ruptured all the ligaments and tendons in my thumbs and I couldn't lift anything over 20 pounds. So I had to get a job that did not involve doing the only thing that I really knew how to do. And so I ended up selling vacuum cleaners door to door ⁓ and well and won a scholarship as the best salesperson in three states, which essentially ended my academic career and kind of pointed me down the path of, yeah, you're to be in sales for a living. Shawn Sundsvold: ⁓ wow. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ my gosh. Shawn Sundsvold: Okay. Okay. So going that route, like what led you from being a salesperson, right? What led you and kind of got you to the point of doing sales training and, you know, and from there, you know, how did DT become kind of grow for you? Matt Nettleton: So when I got out of school, I went to work for a large soft drink company based in Atlanta that most people are familiar with. And Coca-Cola, they would put us through sales training. Now, at that time, we were the number one consumer brand in the world and we're still pretty far up there. We had a 95 % plus market share, but they thought it was important enough that we should go through sales training. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ yeah. Matt Nettleton: In fact, we went through, in my six years there, I think I went through eight total sessions with seven different training companies. I left, I got into ⁓ real estate. Because I was at Coke, I met my wife at a bar in Indianapolis and Coke made me an offer. I could move to Chicago or Detroit. And I said, you know what, I'm not sure if I like random gunplay or really bad traffic more, but I'm just going to stay in Indy. Right. So I stayed in Indy and I went to sell houses. I did not realize, ⁓ figured it'd be easy. Right. Everyone lives indoors. How hard can this be? I not realize that the average Indianapolis realtor makes $13,000 a year gross. ⁓ So I started ⁓ and ⁓ looked Kelly Sundsvold: You Cool. Matt Nettleton: And what I realized is the most successful agents all attended sales training. Now that's a small minority, right? About 10 % of the market actually uses sales training. So I talked to a guy and he really helped me. And then I talked to somebody else. Well, I was top 2 % in the world, but I was working 80 or 90 hours a week. I mean, if you're good at residential real estate, you just assume that's way it is. so ⁓ got married. My first baby was on the way. And I'm like, I can't work like this and have my kid know my name. Like that would of important that my kid knows my name. So I was looking for something and I to an ad for Sandler Training, went in, became a client. My goal was to make the same amount money and work half as much. I'm top 2 % in the world for Century 21. I'm looking around, I'm working too much. I answer an ad for Sandler, I become a client. My goal was to make the same amount of money but work half as much. It was not to sell more. And I screwed it up. I worked half as much, but I made $1,000 more over the next 12 months. So I did that two more years and then I was bored with real estate and the guy that was my Sandler trainer said, hey, you really seem to understand the system. Why don't you do this for a living? And so I went to work for him and fell in love with the idea of getting to help, you know, basically, you know, 80 % of our businesses locally owned businesses, locally based salespeople. And I got to help locally based salespeople really change their lives by growing their revenue. Shawn Sundsvold: That's fantastic. it's as a sales person most of my life, right? I've sat through sales training, some not great, some are fantastic. But I, you it's always interesting that it just salespeople, tend to, they always kind of stay in the sales world, right? And they just get better and they get better. And I love that you kind of took that and went to train others. What's been you've kind of... What's been the biggest lesson you try to teach people who are in sales? Matt Nettleton: Well, the biggest lesson that I try to teach people that who are in sales is that their primary job is prospecting. Right. And it's funny. So on my podcast, one of my old clients, Lorraine Ball, she said, you're never in the business that you think you're in. You're simply a prospector for the business that you think you're in. Because until you sell it, you're not in that business. So you want to be in marketing? Great. Go sell marketing services. You want to be in trucking? Great. Go sell trucking services. Once you sell it, then you can be in the business. to you've got to sell it. I tell you the number one thing that every salesperson hates ⁓ is So it's of two-edged sword, right? ⁓ Everybody's actually in Nobody wants to do it. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. So, like, on that, what's one of the biggest sales mistakes you see businesses making? when it comes to prospecting. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. Matt Nettleton: so we refer to this as the magic money box, right? Pick it up. It'll make you money. ⁓ the number of people who believe that they can do a million different things and never pick up the phone actually grow their business is astonishing. And ⁓ this is not, ⁓ think you have to do. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: Google ads, I think you have to sponsor stuff on LinkedIn. I think you have to work with Facebook or Instagram based on your industry. got a direct mail campaign that I run and I've run ⁓ for years. I've done mails, but in the cold calling, picking up the phone and dialing it, no matter how much everybody hates it, is going to play a role in growing your business. Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm man Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I think phone skills, right? Just basic phone skills are such I don't. ⁓ I'm going to poke a little bit of generational here, but you know, the younger generation, sometimes struggle with that. Not everybody, but many of them do. And if they can do it over text versus, you know, do it over the phone or any conversation, I ⁓ they would. Right. But me, like one of first sales jobs was face-to-face selling cell phones inside of Sam's Club. Right? You had to learn really, really quickly whether or not, you know, how to engage that person, how to get them in conversation and how to, you know, read them in the first five seconds of a conversation of where you're going to go. So it's vastly important, vastly Matt Nettleton: Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ so I've got two kids who are out of college and one who's a senior in high school. my now 25 year old daughter, when she was 17, we driving somewhere and she in the backseat with her brother. And I don't know where her younger sister was, but my wife was in the front seat and we were driving and all of sudden my phone dinged and I looked down and my daughter had texted me from the backseat of our car. And I said, Hey, Grace, you know, we're in the same car. You're actually allowed to talk to me. And she said, just read the text. ⁓ was a per yeah, I'm driving. I'm not reading the text. it's ⁓ can, you're going to have to talk to me if you want me to do something. So ⁓ that is like ⁓ number one thing that business owners tell me about their employees under 30 is that they're exceptionally gifted digitally and exceptionally stunted in real life. Shawn Sundsvold: I'm driving. Kelly Sundsvold: Right, right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, it'll be really interesting as even the next generation comes up. Alpha, you know, which ⁓ think they're kind of dubbing as the iPad generation. Yeah. ⁓ kind of shifting gears a little bit. What is entrepreneurship? Because you're an entrepreneur at heart. What has it taught you about resilience that you didn't expect kind of when you started? Matt Nettleton: Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Matt Nettleton: So that's actually a good question. And to degree, that's why I started my podcast because ⁓ I with these people all the time. But entrepreneurship is how people who are unemployable find a way to pay for groceries. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, at its basic level it is. Yeah. Matt Nettleton: That would be my best, yeah, my most basic explanation. Kelly Sundsvold: huh. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Nice, nice. So as a long-term, you you've been a long-term sales leader, right? You've led in sales organization, you know, in companies, you're now leading a sales organization to train other people. What is a leadership lesson that you had to learn the hard way, right? And how did it shape you going forward as you continue to lead your own company? Matt Nettleton: So of my favorite leadership lessons, it early on when I got promoted to running a group of people and one of my old bosses called me up and he said, hey, listen, you haven't asked me for advice. Are you okay if I give you some? And I said, yeah. He said, well, remember when you first started ⁓ walking, for and you would go out with your buddies and you would complain about me? I said, yeah. He goes, well now. everybody that reports to you is complaining about you to their buddies. you better make sure that what you're doing, you're doing intentionally. Right? And that's probably the thing. So leaders that I deal with, ⁓ they out and they do ⁓ what thought was done to them without thinking about why it was done. Right? So you know you're going to get people complaining about it. You better be able to say, well, wait a minute, I understand you're upset, but let me tell you why I did that. And you better have some Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: some basic grounding beyond I did it because that's the way it was done when I started. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. It's like they experience that, that's the way they were led. And so they just kind of regurgitate that rather than going, you know what, I really didn't like it when I was blank, you know, maybe micromanaged or something. How do I do this better? Matt Nettleton: Yeah. Or, or, or even, and this is the one that kills me is when I'll say, well, why, why do you have this meeting with your people each week? And they're like, cause we've always had this meeting on Wednesdays. I'm like, okay, I appreciate that, but help me understand at the end of this meeting, if it goes well, what, what has improved? And they're like, no, no, this is just a check-in meeting. Like, no, no, you got to do better than that. Like if you don't have a purpose, don't do it. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ oof. Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: But that's unthinking. was this way when I got here. It'll be this way when I leave. I'm just going to keep doing it. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. The comments of, we've always done it this way. Yep. ⁓ is. ⁓ ⁓ of our listeners that we have are small business owners. That's part of the reason why we started this podcast. What you say to someone trying to build a sales culture without a dedicated sales team? I'm talking about like the solopreneurs or maybe like the people that have a very, very small team. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Matt Nettleton: most dangerous phrase in business. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: Yeah, you know, lot of our clients are one person companies, know, pest controls, financial planners, ⁓ attorneys, bookkeepers. I mean, ⁓ are a lot of people, even electricians, plumbers and HVAC companies. You can a sales team and you can have sales with any size team, but you have to be intentional about it, right? You can't be things to all people. And so Probably the most important thing a business owner can figure out what is just an unconditional and not even a moment in doubt, no. Like yeah, no, that's not what we do. Like this is what I do, this is not what I do. And gonna get, one of struggles of being a business owner is you're gonna get some great opportunities that will absolutely destroy your company if you accept them. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: And being able to predict that before you actually accept them and screw it all up is super important. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm curious, you know, one of the things I think is they've, you know, at least for me, sometimes in my own career, and I'm sure other people share it is ⁓ hate, we hate the title of salesperson. Right? Like we hate sort of having that title, wearing that hat, whatever it is. How do you, you know, especially when it's, you know, their CEO, their salesperson, their whatever, how do you help them kind of work through that in that moment to like, to realize like, it not only has to be a part of your business, but you really do need to be good at it if you're going to grow. Matt Nettleton: So funny, inside Sandler, right, there's 400 offices around the world. We've done since the ⁓ 80s. There's concept that we refer to as Horus. And Horus is all other salespeople that have called on your prospects beforehand that have kind of ruined everything because nobody shows up as a salesperson saying, I'm going to over-promise, I'm going to under-deliver, I'm going to be a little unethical. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: I'm probably going to overcharge. I'm not actually going to explain what I'm going to do and then I'm going to complain when they get mad that I didn't do it. Nobody does that. But we wear it like it's our fault. We wear it like, listen, I want to be in sales because if I'm in sales, I'm horus. And the reality is, well, you can be in sales and not be horus. ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: And you also don't have to internalize the idea that everybody who is in sales is Horace. So if I can get them to understand that it's okay to be disarmingly honest on a sales call. In fact, we recommend that as your number one strategy is, you know, tell people exactly what you're going to do. Do it and remind them that you did what you said you were going to do. And if you can do those things, you're probably going to do okay. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Hmm. Matt Nettleton: And the stigma of selling, as we refer to it, is probably something you'll learn to handle. Shawn Sundsvold: Nice. Yeah. think that's really important and, you know, kind of taking that a little bit further into some of the things you're doing now. You know, you titled your podcast Default Profitable, right? I think it's a really powerful idea. It's a powerful mental concept. What does that phrase mean to you and why is it so important for business owners? Matt Nettleton: So a little bit about that title. I work with a pretty, well, I've worked with five different accelerators. So people that take investors' money, it together, and then bring startups in and get them trained for 10-week periods or different periods where they kind of immerse in growing the business. And so with that, ecosystem, I end up talking to a lot of early stage seed type founders who are, you know, kind of just getting their business idea put together trying to package it. And one of the questions I'd like to ask is, tell me your business plan, right? What's your business plan? probably ⁓ two three times a year, I hear, well, we're going to put together some software, then we're going to get investor. I'm going to lose the first investor's money. and then we're gonna get a bigger investor, and then we're gonna lose the second investor's money, and we're gonna get a third investor. And when we lose the third, by the time we lose the third investor's money, we're gonna sell the company, we're all gonna get rich. And I'm like, that's not a business plan. I mean, listen, there are companies that actually do multiple rounds of fundraising, and that sell at the end without ever turning a profit. But your company probably isn't one, right? And so, you know, Kelly Sundsvold: No. Matt Nettleton: Tech companies are probably a third of my business, but the other two thirds are people that, know, HVAC, electrical plumber, that do real things with their hands. And guys understand that in order to start and grow a business, you have to make more money this week than you spend. And every Friday, by default, you're either profitable or out of business. And so, know, those are the guys that nobody talks about nobody You know, nobody ever says, man, I wonder how this guy who started the HVAC company that's sponsoring my little league team got into business. And what does he know about running a business? I mean, he's been doing it for 35 years. Maybe we should ask him. And so that was really the focus of the podcast when I started was, you know, interviewing a bunch of clients who, know, whether it was a marketing company, a trucking company, a logistics services company. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Matt Nettleton: I had one of my past clients who left the insurance world to sell lasagnas during COVID and started a super successful sender friend lasagna. ⁓ So get all these people, but the one thing they all have in common is they had to come up with a way to pay bills every Friday. And by default, they had to make more money in those five days before they spent Friday evening. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I love that title. Man, that's appreciate you going into all of that as far as like just the explanation. And I think lot of people don't go into business ⁓ thinking it that way. They think they're going to go into business. They think it'll be default profitable, right? Because they have the biggest belief in themselves in the world. ⁓ And then they go and do like a couple, ⁓ have couple sales meetings and realize it's not as easy as it's going be, right? Or as I think it's going to be. Matt Nettleton: Yeah. They don't just mail checks in, are you kidding me? But one thing I will say about that ⁓ you know, I ask everybody on the podcast, what's one thing that ⁓ had to learn that you didn't really understand before you got into business? And overwhelmingly, it's a financial literacy thing, right? Overwhelmingly, the idea that you have to, it's not running your home checkbook. Shawn Sundsvold: I know, right? ⁓ Yes. Matt Nettleton: Like there's a whole different level of complexity when you're running a business and then you start adding employees and inventory and now all of a sudden very quickly can spin out of control. And so, you know, the advice is never save money on your lawyer or your accountant. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yes. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. So kind of looking back at your journey as an entrepreneur, you've been doing this for a long time. That's not a your old comment, by the way. That's your wise. You're much wiser now than you were at the beginning. What's the mindset shift that was most critical for your growth? Matt Nettleton: So. Again, here we go. Here we go again. I mean... So I had a high school basketball coach who used to say, if it's to be, it's up to me. And my junior year of high school, I had heard that one too many times, we lost to our arch rival, 100 to 47. And I walked in the locker room and I was not a good basketball player, I was a good football player. I played basketball much like a football player. But we walked into locker room and at the end of the game and I just took my uniform off and I handed it to him and I said, here's the deal. If it's to be, it's up to me. I'm going skiing. We live near a ski hill. I'm going to go ski for the rest of this winter. You're going to get fired at the end of the season because you're terrible. I'm going to come back next year. I'm going to start. We're going to come back and we're going to beat this team. And that all happened. So he got fired. I made the team. I started. We came back. We beat that team. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Matt Nettleton: that's kind of the attitude that's helped me through my entire kind of adult life is I, I'm okay telling somebody it's my fault and I'm okay dealing with the consequences of that. And, and, and that kind of just lets me do the things that I think are most important, but it also, when things go horribly wrong. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: I can't sit back and go, well, if the peso hadn't declined in value versus the dollar, I'd have made my goals. Because nobody, I mean, I got three kids, a wife and dog. on this side of the balance sheet is looking at me going, oh yeah, well I get it, because the peso went down. Right, they're just like, what do you mean you failed? So it's just, if you can take the upside, you have to be responsible for the downside too. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And I'm curious. I love the way you said that and talking about accountability, right? I think in, think it's for right? Let's turn that a little bit, right? ⁓ A of them do the same thing. ⁓ It's economy. ⁓ It's, not the right customer. ⁓ They're not whatever it ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Right? Tell me about the conversation you have going into new businesses that you're working with around accountability. Matt Nettleton: Yes. So is, you know, the funny thing is people talk to us because they want sales training, but what they really need is leadership training ⁓ leadership doesn't come, you you can't over somebody and say, listen, you're either going to do this or I'm going to fire you. Right? That's not how you build accountability. The first, although most time consuming role of a leader is to recruit. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Matt Nettleton: And when I say recruit, what I mean is the business has goals and the individual has goals. And the leader has to recruit that individual into seeing how their goals fit into the business's goals and why they're responsible for doing their job so that the business can also succeed. And so it's not as much, know, holding somebody accountable as it is ⁓ recruiting them to share the vision of the business understand how being part of a team is super important. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. ⁓ It really is. And I love the leadership approach to that. Cause you're right. It is, you know, a good leader is going to help them ⁓ the right accountability and, and, ⁓ know, they're going to take their accountability from ⁓ accountability that the leader takes. Right. So it's kind of that idea of like, you know, thought processes trickle down, you know, what they call it the herd, but it you know, the, to your team. Right. So they take on the, you they take on the, the, the leader. So, ⁓ you I'm curious for you, ⁓ you and as in your business, Matt Nettleton: Yes. Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: ⁓ You've obviously studied this a lot. You continue to keep yourself, you know aware of things that are happening do you do that after 20 years in the industry? How do you continue to stay sharp and stay forward-thinking? Matt Nettleton: Well, I probably read, well I know I read a minimum of 24 business books a year. I also have multiple meetings every month with multiple clients. So, I'm working with 15 to 25 companies and I'm seeing them all the time. And so you're just kind of constantly on the lookout for what are they doing that's working. What are they doing that's not working? do they need to start doing? What do they need to stop doing? What I need to make that they never do again? And then there's the, what are other people that I work with doing that is effective and transferable? Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, that's good. Shawn Sundsvold: I like the transferable part because it's not just effective and because it's got, does have to be transferable to you. Can it work for you? And I think, you know, there is some, think a lot of people look at go, ⁓ it's working for Bill or ⁓ or whatever name you want to use. ⁓ ⁓ works for them. It'll work for me. And that's not always the case. ⁓ Matt Nettleton: And... Yes. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, well, that's the so back to the one third of my business, it's tech companies. The number one problem I see with investors is an investor does really well on one investment and then applies the same thesis and method to everything else they invest in. It's like, yes, I got it. That was good right over there. Worked really, really well. Does not apply to any of these situations. So. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. So how do you personally define success today on that? And has that changed over time? Matt Nettleton: really hasn't. mean, one of the reasons that I, wanted to be self-employed. I'm one of the things that's driven me, you know, since I was, ⁓ my son was born, ⁓ 26 years ago, 27 years ago, was I wanted to be able to do the things that I wanted to do. And so ⁓ a part of my business has been driven by, I coached 40 some youth sports teams. I coached basketball and football and soccer and had a blast. And you know, it's great when you go down to visit your kids in there in college and you've walked around campus and you run into kids that you coached as, you know, third graders and second graders and they come up to talk to you because they had fun. ⁓ You know, that's a lot of that. That's far more important to me than anything else. And so I think it's strategic coach that Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Matt Nettleton: that says there are three freedoms, the freedom of relationships, the freedom of time, and the freedom of money. I think that if you can have freedom in all three of those, you're doing pretty well. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, that's really good advice. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. I don't... I had leader who, you know, counseled me in something similar at one point in time, you know, when he was talking about a job promotion, right? You get more time, more responsibility and more money, right? And if you can get two of the three, you're doing pretty good. And if you can get three of the three, why aren't you signing on the dotted line yesterday? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we're, doing this right at the end of January, you know, this interview right at the end of January. So I'm curious, like what, you know, looking ahead, what's next for you and Sandler DTB? Matt Nettleton: Yeah. Yeah, just go. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: any big goals that you're trying to do this year or you know special things you're doing with the business. Matt Nettleton: Yeah, so we're part of with my my youngest graduating from high school. The focus of my business has changed. We're going to grow the business a little bit more rapidly now. That's going to be a big focus for the next few years. You know, I'm older ⁓ as likes to point out. Shawn Sundsvold: You're not gonna live that down. Kelly Sundsvold: Nothing but love for you, Matt. Matt Nettleton: ⁓ I guess. But ⁓ start to see different things that you can focus on, but the is always ⁓ in money or relationships. And so, ⁓ as do this and ⁓ as grow the business, I'm simply to what are the things that I can get for the time that I trade working. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, awesome. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. really appreciate your perspective, Matt. know we had a first conversation and I was on your podcast, got a chance to talk to you on there. ⁓ then of course here, and you're just a wealth of knowledge and experience. love that, ⁓ how love your kids and your family and you really prioritize that. ⁓ Those yes, you're a badass at business and you have grown ⁓ this company the years, but a lot of it is relationship for you. And I just really appreciate you sharing your perspective with our audience and listeners. quick, ⁓ how do people get in contact with you? I will link your LinkedIn in the bottom here of ⁓ show. ⁓ share everyone. Matt Nettleton: Yep. So Instagram Sandler DTB Indie, obviously you can find me on LinkedIn, at Matt Nettleton. The other thing is pop over and listen, if you're a small business owner, pop over and listen to the default profitable podcast. I think we're at 160 some episodes now, and it's just business owners talking about what they've learned as they started their business. And it's just 20 minute stories and... You know, what have they figured out that they didn't think they needed to? Kelly Sundsvold: Exactly, exactly. Well, thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate your time. Matt Nettleton: Yeah, thanks for having me on.