Latest / Therapy and Theology / S8 E5 | Addiction: Signs, Symptoms, and How To Get Help

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S8 E5 | Addiction: Signs, Symptoms, and How To Get Help · Therapy and Theology

• Shae Hill: Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Therapy and Theology Podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lysa TerKeurst, counselor Jim Cress, and doctor Joel Muddamalle. Each episode of this season is going to help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today, they're gonna be tackling the topic of addiction, a topic that definitely cannot be covered entirely in just one episode. I know there may be many of you who have been personally affected by addiction in some way, so please know we're here for you and we feel the weight of being sensitive to a topic like this. Before we jump in, I wanna let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes, you can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lysa, Jim and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lysa titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Temember God's Faithfulness.” This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God, guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting Him and more. Because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and Theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Joel. Lysa TerKeurst: Today, we wanna talk about addictions. And I've got, of course, my good friend, Jim Cress, here who is licensed professional counselor and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. And we wanna approach this both from a therapeutic standpoint, also a theological standpoint, and lastly, an experiential standpoint because addictions are something that are quite prevalent. And even if you've never had an addiction, chances are there's only a one degree separation between you, someone you love, someone you do life with that is struggling with an addiction. So we think this is a very important topic. I first wanna open up with a story that I think really illustrates why it's so important to go there to talk about this and to discover what we can do in situations where we are struggling with an addiction or living with someone who is struggling with an addiction. Several years ago, I was over in Florence, Italy and I went to the Academia Museum. The purpose of me going there was because I was very excited to see Michelangelo's David, the big statue of David, and what a masterpiece it was. I remember, though, when I walked into the long hallway that leads to the rotunda where the David sits, it wasn't the David that captured my attention even though it was a masterpiece and it was beautiful and I was eager to walk closer to it. But what captured my attention were the statues that were lining the hallway leading up to the David. These are statues that still look like big pieces of rock, of marble, and there was maybe, like, a head sticking out with an elbow and a leg of one. And then the next one, there was no head. It was still the big block, but there was, like, a shoulder and an arm and another, you know, maybe foot or something. And each of these statues were unfinished, and it looks like there was a beautiful sculpture that was trying to emerge from the rock. But this unfinished collection was called the prisoners. And what made me think about this, and I still think about it to this day, is what it looks like when someone is forever locked in their hard places. You know, it was kind of eye opening to stand there and look at what the master artist had finished chiseling, and it got to this beautiful, this masterpiece called the David and how stark it was to compare that to these unfinished statues that were called the prisoners. And so I started praying this, God, chisel me. I don't want to be a prisoner forever locked in my hard places. Chisel me. Work on me, Lord. And and, you know, in order to be chiseled, that means you have to be, like, worked on, chipped at, and it doesn't always feel pleasant. It doesn't always seem good at the time. But all of God's work to get us to the place where God has this good in mind for us. It is good work even if it doesn't feel good in the moment. So that's why I wanted to tell this story just to give us a picture of someone who's struggling with addiction and how they really are stuck in this really hard place. And so, Joel, I wanna turn to you first, and I wanna just know from a theological standpoint, does the Bible even talk about addictions? Where do we go in the Bible to read about addictions? So what do you have for us today? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I think that the first place I'd like to start is actually picking up on that chiseling kind of story, and to point out how that's such a great illustration of the work of sanctification in our lives. And so, you know, imagine you've got this big thing of block of marble and it's a little bit different from how we do art today where, depending on your medium, you've got an image in your mind and then you draw that image out, you know. But when a person is working with marble, they have to chisel out what they're seeing, and they have to work their way all the way down. But there becomes this kinda like finite moment where they're in danger of chiseling too much. You know? And if they chisel too much, they lose the essence of what that picture is supposed to be. And what I just love about this picture and the whole David thing is, like, the Holy Spirit is the one who's doing chiseling. Like, the Holy Spirit is the one who is really working to take off the old self, the the things that bring corruption to our lives, the things that cause chaos and dysfunction in our lives, and the Holy Spirit is the perfect artist Because he's never gonna take away too much. And and at the very end of the product you get like the beautiful human that you were always intended to be. How does this relate to addiction? Addiction is actually working contrary to the work of the Holy Spirit. If the holy spirit wants us to be the beautiful full expression of the image of God that we're designed to be, addictions are actually working to emaciate us, to, to ruin us from the inside out. And one of the ways that addiction does this is through self deception, you know. And so, addiction and self deception, go hand in hand. But the other part about why addiction is so difficult is because I've come to the turn just the realization that addiction is the dark side of worship. Addiction is the dark side of worship. What do I mean by that? You and I were created to be worshipful beings. We're always intended to pour out our worship and adoration onto God, and we were intended to experience appropriate levels of honor and dignity and, you know, and to be seen in the image and likeness of God. Like, those are good and beautiful things. Addictions take us to extremes. And, when we go into this place of extremes, it actually causes us to lose our rationality and to lose the very unique thing that makes us who we are as we give ourselves over to something else. And so if I if you're like, Joel, what is, like, the basic premise, base basic definition of what, addiction is? I know, Jim, you've got a therapeutic one. But from a theological standpoint, I would just simply say, addiction is the process by which we are actively giving ourselves over to something that is destructive and detrimental to our humanity. That we're giving ourselves something giving ourselves over to something that is destructive or detrimental to our humanity. I've got a favorite scholar. His name is GK Beal, and Beal has this great book, about worship. And one of his lines, and there's a quote, he says, what we revere, we reflect either to our ruin or restoration. Whatever is the object of our reverence, we will end up reflecting that thing to our ruin or to our, restoration. So the old testament plight of the people of God is, hey, don't go after don't give yourself over to the idols of the world. Don't give yourself over to, to, sexual, licentiousness. Don't give yourself over to, these practices in the temple because you're actually destroying yourself. You will look like the thing that you're giving yourself over to. But give yourself over to the Lord. Give yourself over to the Holy Spirit. Give yourself wholly devoted to those things. And in that, you're gonna find a full expression of who you're always intended to be. There are a couple of verses I'd love to just kind of look at. One is in Proverbs and this is like one of those sober sober verses. It's Proverbs 23, starting in verse, 29 where, the author says, who has woe? Right? So, like, we can all answer this together. Anybody here have woe? Hand raised. Okay. Who has sorrow? Anybody? Cool. Okay. Who has conflicts? Okay. We might just keep our hands up. Who has complaints? Who who feels this this was a big one. Who feels that they have a wound for no reason? Good night. Right? Who has red eyes? That is a a description of of tears, of sorrow. You know? Who, and then and then now it goes it goes over to this. Like, those who linger over wine. So it's almost this contrast that's happening is, here's a list of things that are natural and normal to human existence. Now here's the danger. Because if you have experienced these things, you have a place that you can turn to or a place that you can turn away from. Right? So we either turn to the Lord, we turn to the people of God, we turn to holy actions to, to deal with the sorrow of life, or we can turn over to things that are actually gonna be detrimental to us. And so this problem talks about those that turn over to the detrimental thing. Well, what is this? Those who linger over wine. Those who go who who go looking for mixed wine. He says, don't gaze at wine because it's red, because it's it gleams in the cup and goes down smoothly. Look at this. In the end, it bites like a snake and stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things. You will say absurd things. You'll be like someone sleeping out at sea or lying down on the top of ship's mast. That basically means that they're, sun struck. They struck me, but I feel no pain. They beat me, but I didn't know it. When will I wake up? And then it's like, I'll look for another drink. Look at the insanity of that. Right? It's like, wait a minute. You have an option of where you turn to, but when you turn to addictive tendencies, addictions in your life, you're gonna go through this whole thing and it's gonna spin you out of control. But the real grave danger is at the very end of it when you go back to sobriety, you wake up and you go, I could go for another cup of wine. Like, how does that make sense? This is why I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:12, he says, everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. So it's like the famous statement, just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should do it. You know? And then just, the last one that I think is really important is Ephesians 5:15-18. Paul says this. He says, pay careful attention then to how you walk, not as unwise people, but as wise, making the most of the time because the days are evil. So instantly he starts— Lysa TerKeurst: And that was Ephesians what? Joel Muddamalle: Ephesians five Okay. 15 through 18. Ephesians five fifteen through 18. So pay careful attention, which by the way, how in the world can you pay careful attention if you're, intoxicated? How can you pay careful attention if you're addicted to drugs? Lysa TerKeurst: How can you pay careful attention if all you can think about is the next time you're gonna partake in whatever the addiction is? Joel Muddamalle: Whatever the addiction is. Like and and so, you know, we're using narcotics or wine or whatever, but I think this expands into, obsession in relationships. Right? You and I were never intended to be obsessed with a relationship so much so that it actually deters from our everyday living, from our love of God, from love of God's people. And so it's like, what are the crutches in your life that have actually become addictions? Pay careful attention then to how you walk. Not as unwise people but as wise, making the most of the time because the days are evil. So I love this about the scripture. The scriptures don't hide the reality of life. It's like, hey, by the way, the days are evil. So don't be foolish. Understand what the Lord's will is. And then here's the contrast I think is fantastic. Don't get drunk with wine, which leads to reckless living, but be filled with the spirit. So look at the contrast. The contrast is you and I can can either be drunk with wine or or insert any of your addictions right there. Drunk with insert addiction. What is the outcome of that type of life? Recklessness. You know? I I don't know if the last person that drove drunk got a DUI and said, you know, everything's working out good for me right now. You know? So but then the contrast is you don't have to do that. Why? You could be filled by something. The issue isn't if you're gonna be filled or not. The question is what are you gonna be filled with? So you're gonna have a feeling, what are you gonna be filled with? Be filled with the spirit of God. And I just have this, like, this sense. It's like all of these other addictions are cheap highs. There's nothing sustaining about it. There's nothing that is gonna give longevity and fruitfulness in their life. They're just cheap highs. But for the people of God and for those that are not even believers, you might be listening to this podcast and to watching the YouTube video. And you might not even know who Jesus is, but you jumped onto this video because you're like, wait a minute. I'm gonna learn about addictions. I'm gonna learn about pornography. Like, I'm interested in this topic, and you're looking for solutions. You're looking for something that's gonna ease the ache of your human heart. And I just wanna suggest to you that there is something that is lasting. There's something that is fulfilling. There's something that will lead you to eternal life that is going to be so good for your life, and it doesn't require you to compromise your mind. It doesn't require you to get on a cheap high. It's actually simply bending your knee and accepting Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. And when we receive the holy spirit, we get a high that is untouchable. We get a high that is un, that is undescribable. It's not cheap. It's actually holy and it's good and it's lasting and it leads us to wisdom and righteousness and it helps us in all areas of our life. And so it's like, well, what is addiction? Addiction is so self deceptive. But what what is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit actually gives us clarity. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I think the driver behind an addiction usually is this incessant hunger. But what we don't realize, like, for example, if you have an addiction to food, it's it's not realizing that food can only reach your stomach. It can never reach and satisfy your soul. And so it's like this in incessant hunger for something to ease and ache deep within you. But the only answer for the deep ache within us and what we don't realize so much is it's the ache for the Lord. And the Lord has that in us to draw our hearts to him. And to make sure that nothing in this world ever satisfies. Because if anything else in this world ever fully satisfied the ache within us, then we would fully envelop that thing rather than turning our face and our attention and our hearts toward Jesus Christ and the Lord himself. So here's some observations just I'll just say, a personal level. When you're in a relationship with someone with addiction, and I think it's so hard, So the problem is the minute they hear addiction, they start assigning that word, which in their mind sounds much more severe than what they're doing. They started assigning that word to all the other people who are in worse situations than they are. For example, like, if their issue is drinking, they'll go, well, I'm not an addict because I can stop anytime I want to. And, also, treatment, I don't need treatment. I don't need recovery. I mean, that's for people who, like, do crack cocaine and stuff. Right? And so there you mentioned self deception, and I think denial runs right along that same vein. And the problem is when you are in relationship with someone, you are seeing things that they legitimately either refuse to see or are not seeing. And it can be a really scary thing, and it it can also very much deep be dysregulating to the person who's seeing it and desperately wants to help them. So there is this self deception. There is this denial that's happening. At the same time, when you try to have a conversation with someone who is addicted, it's crucial that you remember the truth to them is not always in alignment with reality. The truth to them is whatever protects the addiction. And I remember one time, Jim, you were helping me process some things, and you took a pillow from the couch and you held it up in front of your face. And you said, Lysa, I just want you to remember when you're having a conversation, you're not actually having a conversation if the pillow is here, you're not actually having a conversation with this person. You're having a conversation with the addiction, and you're not even reaching the person. And that really just was such a picture to me that I'm not dealing with something that's just a little problem. I'm dealing with some something that is full of deception. Full of untruths, and it's really hard to navigate and really hard to navigate on your own, especially if you are new to realizing or recognizing, you know, the world of addiction. So, Jim, what are some of the behavioral signs and symptoms of addiction? And, also, just for someone listening here, you know, what if, like, they're going, wait a minute. So if I do this and this, it like, could I possibly have an addiction? And I just think the first place is self awareness or awareness about the relationship that you're in. Jim Cress: Some of the, more classic, signs or signposts of addiction is or characteristics is is obsessive. Somebody thinks about it a lot even when they're not, say, drinking, drugging, using porn, which is an addiction. It's obsessive. It's compulsive, meaning it's, like, I just almost cannot stop myself or indeed, I can't stop myself. I have this compulsion to do this. Right? That's in if you look at the alcohol, when someone says, I have a beer, I have a glass of wine, but I don't have a compulsion for it. In the addictions world, we call it jonesing. I'm not just jonesing. I have to have it. It's like, no. I can take it or leave it. Many, addicts and alcoholics would say, I could stop, you know, famous book that calls about I'll stop or I'll quit tomorrow. And it's like, yeah. But but because they can hold their breath for thirty, sixty, ninety days, and nothing's changed. They go from acting out to acting in. It's obsessive compulsive. It, just continues despite adverse circumstances. Could be a DUI. Could be that, you are, in especially, like, with alcohol or drugs, you basically it is hurting you at work and people begin to notice. Bloodshot eyes, excuses, a person who may be calling in sick, whatever else it may be, like if there's a hangover or something like that. Lysa TerKeurst: Or certainly deterioration in their close personal relationships too. Jim Cress: Yeah. You can see even in a close personal relationship, like, the person's some secrecy, they're hiding, you see something. My big one is especially the, the defensive idea. Like Shakespeare said, methinks thou dost protest too much. Like, someone says, what are you talking about? You've already alluded to this flipping it back on you. Well, you must be crazy. Comparison, which you've alluded to already is like, well, as soon as I hear the words, well, at least I don't blank. It's like, okay. That's often a sign. There is secretive. They're hiding things. It's like I said, if someone says I want a drink, then if you're married, come out and say, hey. I'm gonna drink. You're you're gonna go to bed. I'm gonna stay up and watch Netflix and have a couple of cognacs or something. I'm not endorsing that. I'm just saying, but the secrets here, waiting till someone's not around or, my goodness, hiding it in a glove compartment or whatever. Joel Muddamalle: You’re kind of telling on yourself, aren't you? Jim Cress: Oh, yeah. But and usually what what what is uncovered later, it was covered up earlier. Yeah. What someone covers will be discovered way down the road. Right? Tries to stop and can't. Because see, with the all addictions, there's a time to go through a detox where you're literally letting the body, brain, all of us literally be into, to be able to live without it. Like with alcoholism, if it is truly alcoholism, the idea of saying to stop it can be very deadly because of delirious tremens, DTs. So there's a lot of information around this to w c these signs. They become physically aggressive because sometimes they might be trying to almost white knuckle it, we call it. They're trying to dial it back and stop and the angrier they get, they're isolated. They're they have no accountability. The idea if you see these mood changes or mood swings, such stuff as, well, you're up late, awful late at night or, you know, with the GPS or whatever the phone, live 360 or whatever. I see you going places. I mean, where are you? What's up? And I noticed there's an ABC store next door. But these are some of the the telltale signs that one can begin to see. Now don't rush to judgment. You might see two or three signs and investigate, be be intriguing and say, I see this. What's going on? But that confrontation early on, I never recommend because that's just going often a person will just go underground and hide it. But the idea of being curious, not furious, and in time, you'll be able to see the signs and hopefully speak to them. Lysa TerKeurst: And at what point does maybe a spouse or a close friend or a parent or a child go to their loved one and say, like, okay. Not trying to be confrontational. But I'm observing some things. Like, when is it appropriate to have that conversation? Jim Cress: Well, I think that idea is in the wisdom of God searching going vertical and saying, God, would you prepare me, prepare that person? That's not a spiritual bypass. To say, when is the right there's a proverb that says a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold and settings of silver. There's a right time to say it. Obviously, when a person literally and I get this. I've had it in my office for years. They're sitting there and they know their spouse is drunk and they have a conversation or more much more fun when both of them are drunk or three sheets to the wind or whatever. And there I said, you're not even gonna remember the conversation. So that idea is in a right time, again, after a meal, something, through a lot of prayer and you're in you're doing your own inventory like my friend's book on humility. You're coming in not with a long bony finger. You're actually coming in with some truth and some empathy, not judgment. And so to come in and say, hey. Is now a good time? No audience around. There's something I wanna talk to you about. I don't need a minute. I need twenty minutes. I do this literally with people. I'll say, these are the hands I go, I come in peace. It's my stance, we call it. I say, I come in peace. There's some things I wanna ask you about and just say or talk to you about that I'm concerned about. I love you, and I'm gonna say this, like this. I'm gonna put it on the table, and I'm gonna literally have said before here move. Go to the bathroom, walk away, and see what you think about. Are you open to a thought? May I share it? And is now a good time? Otherwise, you know, they're they you don't want them in conversational claustrophobia, a term I made up where they just went out. They say, sure. Now is a good time and say, look. I don't know if I'm right. If that feels codependent, I don't care for me. I don't know if I'm right. I see some signs. I wanna let you know I love you. I love you so much. Especially the more intimate the relationship, the tighter the rules. You got that? Like a marriage. The more intimate the relationship, the tighter the rules are. And to say, I've noticed about drinking. It feels like I've seen the drinking going up. I'm not here tonight to say you're an alcoholic. I don't know what you are, but I want you to know I'm concerned. Or I saw that you had surgery and you've got the Vicodin or the oxycodone, and it's still in there. I mean, you could take it back to a pharmacy, and then I noticed it looked like it had been moved in the medicine cabinet. I'm seeing some signs or smoking or gambling or financial disorder, which is an addiction, and say there's just a lot of spending going on. I'm concerned. Are you willing to have a conversation? Blah blah blah blah blah. And at that point, I think a next step often is to say, you know what? Would you consider could we find maybe a counselor to go in and say, let's talk about this. You're not really doing an intervention. I'm looking early on. If they're not willing, take a step back. I'll have them stand up in my office as they take a step back. Sir, are you ma'am, are you willing to be willing? I don't know. Are you willing another step back? Willing to be willing to be willing? It's like, yes. Because they may come in and feel like they're just, for one, not ready to give it up yet. The the rich young ruler is a great example of that, which we've talked about here a bunch. So they're like thinking, I think, but I wanna see do they get curious? Are they willing to look at that? And then that's hard for someone who's a spouse to lay it on the table. And then I may circle back and after a while I'm saying, you know, I feel like it's gotten worse. It hasn't changed. Your behavior has gotten changed. It gotten worse, and that's where I think boundaries start to come in. Lysa TerKeurst: Do you think that most addictions stem from, their need to cope with something, and so they've chosen an unhealthy coping mechanism that has now turned into an addiction? Jim Cress: Zero doubt. Bullseye. Couldn't couldn't say it better. So the coping tool the problem is it works. Sin is the ultimate addiction. He's oh, you really go on there? Keith Miller wrote that book, Sin the Ultimate Addiction. So all of us at one level have coping mechanisms. What we wanna learn to have is healthy coping mechanisms versus not – Lysa TerKeurst: And define what is a coping mechanism? Jim Cress: So anything that's going on, the way I put it, in my internal world where I am dysregulated, something's out of order. I maybe I have cortisol levels high. I don't feel at ease, which is why we often say in alcoholism or drugs dis ease, not at ease. Quit saying disease. It's sin. No. It's disease. And with that is so I will look for, and who could blame you, from early ages for an external solution to my internal problem. And so the more I do that, you choose the behavior and all the brain research. Let me tell you, you choose the behavior, the brain chooses the addiction. And there is that addicted brain and you can begin to go on time and time again in what we talk about with neuroplasticity of the brain. It's a rut and the brain just says, why bother? Why quit? This is and there's not usually a denial that's there, but there's formal with addiction and rationale, which means I've rationalized at least I'm not the vomited one. I've had this set drunk in the streets. Right? At least I'm not that. I mean, they're on, you know, opiates or opium or something like they're doing all this or they're doing that, and they've got six DUIs. I've never had one. So that part is that comparison comes in, but that coping mechanism usually is if I get time with them, I'll find out what were some of the early pains, usually from childhood, relational problems, what are you trying to medicate? Because you go into an average person if they're in pain after surgery, I'm taking your pain away, your your pills. Good luck. So the idea is saying to go and just snatch their quit that alcohol, quit the drugs is not wise. They're trying to medicate some internal reality. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think there's also some scripts that they've bought into. That they're telling themselves and, you know, call it a scheme of the enemy, call it a trap set by the evil one. But here here are some of those scripts that, I think that people will say to themselves, like, this this isn't that big of a deal. Jim Cress: Minimization. Lysa TerKeurst: Yep. Or, like, what are you talking about? I mean, you have a glass of wine too. Jim Cress: Jesus turned water into wine. Don't you know your Bible? Joel Muddamalle: Well, I've heard it. At least I'm not. Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst: At least I'm not x, y, and z. Right? Jim Cress: Your dad was, and you're projecting them. See, people will learn even therapeutic. They'll watch Therapy and Theology, seriously, or something else. And they'll go, well, your dad well, you're just projecting or transferring that onto me. You you're I'm wearing your dad's face. I've seen all this and heard all this. Lysa TerKeurst: And then another one is, like, no. Like, I'm mature enough to handle this. Right. You know? Or I got this. Or even I need this because of my anxiety. Like, you know, isn't it better that I do this to help manage my anxiety rather than that? You know? Jim Cress: It helps me be able to go you don't know the workforce I'm in. I mean, it is a zoo, and the pressure is there and this calms me down or I can't go to sleep. Quick bullet point. Study it on the brain stuff. It's very simple. Follow doctor Daniel Amen. I know who you know and I know. Alcohol will help you get to sleep, but when you talk about REM and that restorative sleep we need at night, it disrupts sleep. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I have an aura ring and the Oura ring tells me every time. It's just like, you know, some it's like, yeah. It's that's the self deception though. The self deception is, oh, this thing's gonna work. It's gonna help me. And in the end, it's actually working against you. It's interesting that, our English word narcotics, it actually comes from the Greek word. Narkeo means to numb out. Right? And so think about it. It's like I had a conversation, some years ago with a friend, and, there's something similar. Like, I started to see some concerns. And, we have a very close group group of us, and, one of the wives had reached out and said, hey. Can you just check-in on this? And so ended up calling my buddy and just had a conversation. I was like, hey. What do you what's your night what's your nightly routine? He's like, oh, dude. It's great. Get home. Have you know? And this is exactly where it is. It's great. Get home. Get the kids in bed. You know? Me and the wife, we hang out for a little bit. She goes to bed. I'm a I'm a night owl. I'll typically watch a a basketball game and have a glass of bourbon. Like, oh, cool. Is that every night? He's like, yeah. Pretty much every night. What if there's not a basketball game on? No. And he'll go he'll go, I'll play video games. Oh, cool. Still a bourbon? Oh, yeah. For sure. Oh, so are you having a glass of bourbon every night? Yeah. It's not that big of a deal. He already knew it. He already knew it instantly. Jim Cress: That was his defense? Joel Muddamalle: He knew it instantly. He already knew. We were very close. Like, he knew right now. You know? And we have family members that have, you know, just very similar. And so finally, we get into it and he goes, Joel, you don't understand. My day is so stressful. And then and then it goes I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, that's the pathway. It. Tell me about it. Yes. Exactly. Oh, man. Tell me about it. You know? And what it has become is the bourbon is an object that enables him to numb out of that thing that has been chasing him throughout the day. Jim Cress: And be mindful with the rituals leading in. We dare not miss this. That bourbon is not just in the hour of drinking the bourbon, in rituals and what in the addiction cycle. We talk about preoccupation, pre occupying the chair, the man cave. So all day long, feeding the brain data of saying I'm having that bourbon tonight. It is not just I know you all know that. It's not just I come now, I have it. That's been an all day. Joel Muddamalle: That's exactly it. Lysa TerKeurst: And I can get through this because I know that's it. Jim Cress: It's a reward. Joel Muddamalle: And so this thing is numbing out that thing. But while this thing is supposedly numbing out this thing, it's actually enslaving me to that thing. You know? And so and that is this deception. That's the self deception. Lysa TerKeurst: You really bring up a great point because as I was listening to you about having a a conversation, you know, nonconfrontational, no long bony judgment finger, with, you know, someone who is struggling with addiction, but they don't have the awareness that it's an addiction. I have heard very few conversations heard very few conversations where the person goes, you know, you're right. And so I think it's really, really amazing. You said something I think is key is that the wife of your friend already had a community of trusted people so that she could call you, which is a very biblical principle. Like, you address it and they don't listen, then go get a brother or sister in Christ. You know? And so I think having that community is really, really important. And I think that's also another unfortunate telltale sign of someone who's struggling in addiction. Eventually, they isolate. That they're they they refuse the community aspect of their life because the more people that observe and get close, the more people that might notice, you know, how they're off or whatever. So my point being is, number one, preventative. Always have a good, solid, trusted community around you. And if you don't have that, then definitely start praying and asking the Lord to reveal and take active steps toward putting you in situations where community can be found. But I wanna go back to the conversation about, like, the conversation does not go well. Jim Cress: Often it won't. Then what? He let's not go here, but you didn't tell us the other conversation. See, you were ninja like. That's what I call it. You were like, Columbo the detective like. You were Jesus with that woman there who he's there talking at the well. He's deep into the narrative before he he knew the answers and proved it. He says, tell yeah. He leans back. That little statue is in my office, a marble statue of the sea. Tell me about your husband. So she keeps wanting to go up in her head and all that. So people will do that with everything you've laid out. Well, is it really this? And what about that? I'm not like your dad. At least I'm not that. They're doing the same kind of thing. So inside is when you're there and rarely have I seen it go well. That's why I'm saying, can you phase one, step one. Put it on the table and say, I'm I I owe it to you to as the more in tip of the relationship. Then I I see something I'm really concerned. I promise I come to you in love. I've I have a problem. If you're looking for step two, what happens if it doesn't go well? I believe it for me. If there's drunk driving, I've had this many times, and they said, yeah, and he's taking the kids to soccer practice and having a few belts in the car or whatever. That's a different story. Kids are involved, that ups it like quickly, more truly like an intervention. But I always encourage people to leave some time. Circle back two, three weeks, try to be in there, Keep the relationship going like normal. I'm faking. No. You're not. You're just keeping it. You're not talking about everything. Circle back two to three weeks and notice is there more data. Is he white knuckling it and trying to stop it, which isn't gonna last if that's all he's doing, and say, I wanna circle back. Not circling back three minutes later and say, I've noticed. I still see the things. I found, you know, alcohol hidden or drugs or I've seen this or that. I'm circling back and letting you know. And what you're moving toward is boundaries with a consequence and say, now I'm letting you know. I do the stair step model. I'm on the second step going, there is a problem and I'm I need you to ask them to mirror back. This is what I'm struggling with. And then if they need if they get protesting because they're gonna feel, oh, what if for a wife? What if she starts to mean business? I've seen it many times. And they're gonna feel this person's gonna start putting a consequence in. Then just what the wife did, reach out to whoever you can. I I don't believe in I don't want a person to reach out the first day, like, to a pastor or somebody bring somebody in. But give him a chance, almost like Matthew 18, and then say, okay. I'm gonna find a couple people, two or three witnesses, and go and say, I've tried gently. I waited three weeks. I've circled back. He or she, because women have the addictions too, will have no part of it. They're actually turning it back on me and then say I need some outside help. And then where do you go from there? It may end up not you can't drink. Watch. Easier said than done. I won't stay in a relationship with someone who is has a drinking problem or is an alcoholic or is a drug addict. Lysa TerKeurst: And in a marriage situation, that doesn't mean I'm filing for divorce tomorrow. No. Jim Cress: No. No. Lysa TerKeurst: It means degrees of separation. You know, I think it's really important. Sometimes we hear of somebody struggling with something, and a verse has been weaponized against me when I'm trying to draw these boundaries. Right. And, you know, but this classic verse has been weaponized. Like, didn't Jesus lay down his life? Like, didn't, you know, didn't he model for us to lay down our life? You know? And, yes, Jesus did lay down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue. Jim Cress: He was escaping out of crowds left and right. I mean, so the idea of people, even the disciples, you know, you Peter, you know, at Caesarea Philippi, so if you look at that, they'll they're making Jesus wrong, the most codependent person. They're saying, didn't he do that? He had a direct mission, as you've said well, from the father, but he I still think he's the most boundary person in all of literature. Joel Muddamalle: 100%. He has love and then he shows that love through his limits and even Paul in the New Testament says, shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? Absolutely not. Yeah. Because that is a disgrace to that sacrifice that Christ has made on the cross. Lysa TerKeurst: So I wanna end with just an illustration, today. It can feel like if you're doing life with someone with an addiction, it can feel like they are laying across the train track and the train is barreling toward them, and they are not acknowledging it. Maybe they don't see the train or maybe they see it and think the train's not gonna hit me. What you see is the train is gonna hit you because you were laid across the tracks. It's coming ever closer. There's an urgency here. So out of great love for this person, I run up on the track and I pull them off the track. And I think, whew, you know, crisis averted. The only problem is if they're an addict, they're gonna climb right back up on the track. Clear. And now the train is even closer and then out of a panic because you know the consequences are not just gonna be felt by them, but it's gonna deeply affect your life. So you run back up on the track, and you pull them off again. But now the train is even closer, and they climb back up on the track. Well, eventually, if you keep going on the track and pulling them off, the train is gonna run over you both. Right. And so at some point, you are gonna have to either get the help that you need, even if they won't participate in counseling, get the help that you need so you can have the wherewithal to let them make their own choices and stop climbing on the track with them. You can help them, but you cannot be their savior. If they are unwilling or incapable of changing and choosing something different than the track, then you've got to have the wherewithal to not step into always rescuing them and the train running over you both. I know this is such a hard conversation, but that's why we're here at Therapy and Theology is because we wanna open up what sometimes stays behind closed doors, and we wanna give you hope. We wanna give you help. And this is just a starting place. I fully recognize that there are situations out there where you are gonna need to find personal help through your own therapist, through pastoral care, something where someone is specifically trained in addictions. Please don't turn to someone who is not trained in addictions. Certainly, you can get friendship from a friend, but if you want counseling, you have to go to someone who is trained in this. So we love AACC. That's the American Association of Christian Counselors, and we'll put a link so that you can see what trained therapists there are in your area. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Therapy and Theology. Shae Hill: Lysa, Jim, and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. Help. That's why I wanna remind you about Lysa TerKeurst's free resource titled, “Trust is a Track Record: Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy in Theology. Therapy in Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.