Latest / Voices and Visions / Episode 13. Bringing Farmers Into the Financial System | IMFUYO

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Episode 13. Bringing Farmers Into the Financial System | IMFUYO · Voices and Visions

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is voices and patients.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think any idea was the spell.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the seven second.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm joined by Bernard Fiatti, the CEO of Infuyo Farm.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Infuyo Farm is an award-winning agrifintech venture with traction improving financial access for livestock farmers, which is a group that has historically been excluded from formal credit systems.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Livestock volume for us would then mean from the producer to the farmer all the way through to the finished product.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: They operate in the agri tech space, a sector that has been marginalized in the regulatory and innovation space while providing us with a core human need that is food.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't exist within the financial model unless we bring it into others.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't really consider a farmer as a very attractive customer.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna be talking about how they're trying to make farming sexy again.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh can I say Bernard or do you say Byrne?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Either of the two.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Either of the two.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: You prefer Burn?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll call you Burn.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we've already had a first call to set up the podcast.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Then this morning, you guys arrived early, and I wish we would have been mic'd up because we've already had some great conversations.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: True.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but today I think we should uh narrow the focus a little bit and talk more about you and about your business, um, and about a sector that has the oldest job in the world.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think a farmer is one of the oldest jobs in the world.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is true.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and one of the sectors that is seen the least amount of I think innovation in terms of um business models um but also digit digitization.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I'm really glad you're here.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I'll let you explain um what your background is and what you're doing currently.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ivana, thank you so much for making time for this session.
• 2:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'll start by introducing myself.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Bananjati.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the founder and CEO of Imfuyo.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how you pronounce it.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Infuyo.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Infuyo.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Infuyo, which means wealth or livestock uh in the Bantu language, mainly the Zulu language in South Africa.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Infuyo is a data and finance company in livestock volume chain.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I also wear a second hat.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um the president of data analytics in Kenya.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not going to talk about that unless uh we have a need to do that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: If we have time, even we do, we had time.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm an entrepreneur and I'm also a family man, so to say, which is good for entrepreneurship because it gives you merit and grounding.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Umfuyo is what you call a unique business, so to say.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I know every founder has their own way of blowing their own trumpet and all that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: You should, you should and all that, yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But uniquely true, ours is extremely different.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_06: Tell me.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mainly because of the ecosystems we exist in.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: We are in the data and finance um ecosystems of livestock value chain.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me, what is livestock value chain?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Livestock value chain for us would then mean from the producer who is the farmer all the way through to the finished product that I buy in the supermarket.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Which could potentially mean locally or internationally.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So think about the whole ecosystem, you know.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: A quick example would be think of a farmer who's producing milk and all everything they do in between, you know, the feeding, the production, the breeding, you know, managing the farm.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Literally everything that is livestock management, then move the product into the markets and have different complexities related to the market, all the way to actually um getting the product onto the table, which is farm to fork.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that is livestock value chain on a very high-level type of uh explanation.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's more than that, yeah.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then you do data and finance.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we really do when we say data and finance is we build data systems and financial models.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a very interesting approach where we have a B2B and a B2C approach, so business to business and business to consumer.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Our B2B is one that we work with institutions, financial institutions.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So this could be banks, microfinances, circles, insurance companies, um, by extension, um government bodies, um, development uh bodies, you know, the World Banks and all that, um, pharma groups, dairy corporatives, beef associations, mid processors, literally the whole ecosystem that you would call corporate, so to say, for lack of a better word.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So a business-to-business unit.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about uh data systems and financial modeling, especially for financial institutions, we sit down with them and craft an actual data system that drives the financial model.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a quick example.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you have in Kenya less than 4% of national credit going to agriculture.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Less than 4%.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a drop uh in the ocean.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's nothing.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty, pretty exactly.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's nothing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, and we have all these different many financial institutions.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have more than 40 or more than 30.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you bring them up, uh the banks, microfinances, and circos and the DCPs, digital credit providers, and all that.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And still, the national credit to agriculture is less than 4%.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, all the agricultural um loans of finance products are still under 4% on a national level.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can imagine.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to help the financial institutions on that level, on a B2B level, craft up data ecosystems that support the financial modeling.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: We call ourselves uh field intelligence technical partner, yeah, mainly because we exist in different ecosystems, different worlds, if you will.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are in agriculture, and not for the sake of it, but because we are informing policies, uh, governance, um, and driving data collection and building financial models that support agriculture.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the the financial model supports agriculture, but then what does it mean for the farmer?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the farmer gets access to financial products, that's what you mean?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So so on a B2B level, yeah, um as I move on to the B2C as well, yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you have financial institutions really struggling to up their agriportfolio or agrifinance portfolio, which literally means a couple of few things.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you have to look at the bank, one uh bank accounts for farmers, so to say.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And relevantly so for farmers.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because a farmer is a different customer from your usual nine to five type of a customer.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: So a bank account, which makes sense as an agricultural product.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, deposits as well, is a product as well, uh, insurance at the same time, yeah, and agri-centric um insurance, and then an agri-finance product that actually appreciates the different challenges with agriculture.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: So in the data systems and financial modeling, we are able to build this for uh for financial institutions, yeah, and progressively so for all the other different ecosystem players, governments uh who bring policies and different no laws and all that, uh, and private players as well within the livestock value chain.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's our B2B uh model, which is quite intense because we really get into it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then whatever we build at the B2B level is what then we implement on the B2C level, which brings up what you are talking about for farmers.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're able to help farmers get agricultural, you know, centric uh credits and products, yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which could be financial literacy is actually a product on itself, yeah, you know, and livestock insurance in our case, yeah, and also the actual credit.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we exist in all those different worlds.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we are what you would call an agri-fintech, so to say, yeah.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're in agriculture, financial services, and technology.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so why is it that um there's a need for your guys' product?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why why why is only 4% going to farmers?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Why are farmers seen as risky business?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oldest job in the world seen as something risky?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a couple of few things.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of few things.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd give me like two minutes to really explain it properly, it's a couple of few things.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first things first, we are in a developing world.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you would cluster us in that type of uh you know uh category, yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's number one.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Which then means our countries, if I was to specifically speak about this country, Kenya, is less than 100 years post-colonial rule.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that there are certain systems that have not yet been able to work as they should.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, if you were to look at the healthcare ecosystem, it seems to be working well.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the motto, uh it seems to be working well in education, maybe possibly the banking as well, uh, to a certain degree.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: But when you start narrowing down to agriculture, then you'll find a couple of few things.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Haven't yet caught up with it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, you'll find there is very little agricentric financial products.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there are reasons behind that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: The country is only about 100 years old post-colonial rule.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, over that period of time, for the last like 40, 50 years, there has been a lot of rural to urban migration, which then affects agriculture because most people don't want to do anything with agriculture.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: The westernization mindset has really crept in into Africans.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Africans are best known for agriculture, but they don't want to do anything with agriculture.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So being a farmer is not considered cool?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's part of the different um uh uh arguments, if you will, that make uh the agricultural ecosystem a bit um challenging.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have a lot of people um that have moved away from rural areas into their urban areas, mainly because they are seeking that white-collar job.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and that is what has happened to our parents.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And their parents used to pressure them a lot.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go to school, you have to get this degree, you have to get a nice job somewhere in the city, et cetera, et cetera.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So agriculture was left behind, at least at that level.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the problems um there was less demand as well for agricultural financial products, or it was less formalized as a so the problems are interconnected.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the second point there, apart from the rural uh to urban migration, is the fact that also the mindset of agricultural growth kind of just died or went on a slower path.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Mainly because now you have most people not interested to grow food from um uh the farm.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to be uh in the offices.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now that affects a couple of few things.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: It will affect the policies at a national level, uh, at a local level, national government, local government, which then affects even private players.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because the private players like banks don't have proper agricultural, you know, uh governance as far as policies are concerned, for them to be able to follow and introduce the innovations.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have the other point, uh, which is the private players really haven't innovated as such as they should and as fast as they should, which then directly affects credit.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the agriculture ecosystem needs credit.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: When you narrow it down all the way to the farmer, they need credit just to be able to be able to buy seeds, to buy better cows, to take their product to market, etc.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it takes longer to go from farm to table.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're working with seasons, you need time.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and you have all these complexities working all at once.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there are certain sectors that are non-agriculture that have moved way faster.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like the ones we've talked about, um, you know, uh uh uh healthcare, um, education.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So agriculture has largely been left behind.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then now you have the third one, which is the last one I want to finish with uh for purposes of this uh answer.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: The leading organizations as far as policies concerned, there are very little policies or not very well executed policies, there's very little government support.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So then all these different issues really affect uh agriculture and its innovation in all the ways that you think about.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: But tell me a bit more about the agricultural sector here.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because there are some structural differences uh between um farmer farmer groups, I've heard as well, cooperatives.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: How do how is the whole system organized from one farmer to uh massive commercial farms, for example?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: How does it work?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, first things first, you have the small holder livestock farmer, yeah, which is maybe post 90-80% there.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: 80% of farmers are small farmers.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mainly.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Mainly.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they are mixed farmers, which is interesting if you look at what happens in the West.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the West, you'll find someone who is a dairy cow farmer, and that's all they do.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so our small holder livestock farmers will be uh a dairy, uh cow farmer, and still um a poultry farmer, and still growing crop and all that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you have that as the biggest um uh group.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then the small holder livestock farmers for purposes of coercion and unity, just trying to help themselves because there's limited support on a national level, county level, and all that, yeah.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: They come in into groups.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like what we do in our business, we are able to also bring farmers into groups.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it helps with cohesion, governance, community, empowerment, development, just the good feel of trying to come together and do uh one thing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you have the farmer groups which can be in different um uh segmentations, yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: You have uh farmer groups in community-based organizations, and they have a purpose.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: For example, one of uh the community-based organizations we work with uh help um bee farmers to actually breed um uh you know better better meat, so to say, uh leather as well, and take it to market.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then you have different uh farmer groups also that take care of milk and others, potatoes, seeds, fertilizers, and all that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So they're organized by what they produce or where they produce, or can it be both?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it can't it has to be both.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be mainly because you'll find in in Kenya you have arid and semi-arid areas, ASAW.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Can you check arid and semi-arid areas, Asaw?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, arid and semi-arid areas, ASAW, which is the drier parts, if you will, of the country.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have productive regions where you have more greenery, uh more rain, and so that location also dictates the type of crop and the type of uh agricultural economy that will be done there.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just quickly coming back to the groups.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the groups, of course, will be defined by that type of uh uh uh um proximity or uh type of growth.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have the dairy cooperatives or cooperatives who will then do different businesses again depending on the purpose.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a difference between a group and cooperative?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: There is.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: There is.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So a group can be a community-based organization, a self-help group, you know, people coming together just producing uh certain products and taking them to market and taking them to markets.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But a cooperative, largely you'll find if it's for milk, they actually have systems.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have a collection system of going for the milk, they have a chilling system, chilling the milk.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them go an extent uh further to actually process the same milk into byproducts and then take it to market.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you have all these different segmentations depending on uh the need at hand.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: So a cooperative can own machinery as well and assets within the group of farmers.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it then co-owned by every farmer or some are so you'll have situations where most of the farmers actually own the CBO or the self-help group or the actual cooperative, you know?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the best um uh dairy milk processor in the country, uh Kidunguru Dairy, was set up by farmers a long time ago, you know, and it's become a huge uh ecosystem.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: They actually have their own circle.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's called GDC, which has recently raised about uh 50 million dollars from World Bank, just to support the whole ecosystem as well of the dairy milk uh farming here.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then if we um so is the next step commercial farming, or would you consider cooperative already to be a commercial farm?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: How yes and no.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have uh quite a big um differentiation between what happens in the West and all that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a mix of everything from top to bottom and bottom uh to top.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have also large scale commercial farmers, so you have mid size.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a few dinners here with people, and they've all told me the goal of every Kenyan wants to go live on a farm someday.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And they said live on a farm, not be a farmer.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's this connotation about having land ownership, which is seen as a goal, like the value of land is uh high, having having it here.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Does it come from the colonial ownership is that from one acre?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um then that stays in the family, and then does it get then you know, dad gives it to his two kids and then divides the acre by two, and that then happens if you're gonna be able to do that.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's dual, right?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because on the other hand, you need to um be able to formalize the sector to a certain degree or part of the sector um in order to um on a larger scale um do agriculture in a better way.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: To to I mean if you have more data about a big piece of land and how it works and how it's impacted by climate change, rain seasons, um that could help farmers as well with growing their crops more efficiently or making sure that the animals stay healthy for a longer period of time.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's it's a bit of a dual approach, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that means there needs to be capital.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me more.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's interesting, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're mentioning a lot of things that are out of control for a smallhoar farmer.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can't expect a smallhoar farmer to start making a road so that he can get to market or set up a whole chip plan, like and then so what happens is the farmer is evaluated um on not being able to bring in a stable income to the factors that he cannot control.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then they're seen by financial um institutions or credit providers, you're seen as someone who is risky because there's just not enough baseline infrastructure for you to create um a recurring uh operating profit or clients.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: If I understand it correctly, like a big part of what you guys are doing is also trying to formalize the sector uh within um on on both sides.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: So regulatory policy, bigger organizations to this farmer.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I want to talk a little bit more about the farmer and you know the concept of being underbanked.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um also, I mean, we have the guys from the Faticum here, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Using you know, using mobile money, um already being able to access some type of credit or not.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean if you look at this what's what was his name again?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: The guy with the back, exactly.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: So come out.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know how is banking in in general, like is there also like 80% of people here have cell phones, 80% penetration of like mobile.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh or still using cash, or a family has one phone and the the daughter takes the phone to university.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how is how is that?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: How is the bankability of a farmer?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: What bankability or the same thing?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you have two thousand in your that you can deposit immediately, yeah, you can have one.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise they say no.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: And a MOOC statement doesn't count, probably.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if we talk about a different um problem potentially with agriculture in the next few years here, is you said that the average age of farmers here is quite high.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And there is a a lot of urban migration that is still happening.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the question remains who will be running those farms in the next few years?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, is the role of uh the commercial farm or an organization that you know can organize farming, make it way more efficient.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we need less people to run on it or more machinery and high investments that are needed to do so.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what is the next step?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: 70% in this continent or in this country, either we're all overeating, or there's too many of us.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on the day, But isn't the main thing is farming isn't sexy because you're not able to earn a good livelihood with farming.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is that poop?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fertilizer you know.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: That you then have to take care of, so you have to buy food for the goats.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: But there's yeah, and then so and then you make daily payments on payments on your six months.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you'd say after uh, but can you immediately make an operating profit based on you know what you pay for the goat versus what you're expected to get from uh the milk and the the poop?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then you also, I think, need to then, because it's not the only product you can have, right?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because even if you own a goat, you can still have the issue that there are these payments that you have to make for personal reasons, medical bills, school bills, um, whatever may happen.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you then have the goat that is your asset, right?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is it also true that then, you know, if if you don't get access to this credit product, that you might have to sell your goat or kill it or sell the beat, which gives you most money, and then you've lost your assets, paid your bill, but then you're back at square one.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: Still, right?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: When did you start this?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Complex, it's individualized, it's informal, it's not a lot of money.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: That they're trying to figure out how to connect the right data to farmers, make it open source or owned by the farmer.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Western ones and local ones?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe Western, why?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: You've done ten incubators.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's difficult, right?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think what you guys are doing and also describing is you're trying to build something sustainable, viable in the long term, not characterized by something by hyper growth, 10x return.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're trying to create livelihoods, financial sustainability, an inclusive model, just a financially healthy SME supporting business.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then the question also comes, and we've had this conversation with multiple people on the podcast, is SMEs here are the backbone of this economy.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Most economies also 80%.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, but they're seen as unattractive for funding from VCs, which is still where most of the foreign capital here comes through, right?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then of course there's some institutional financial providers.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: But SMEs are largely kind of left behind if it's not a cool fintech or super novel climate tech, which is also, of course, very important that we have those.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think as as you said, make farming sexy again.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the same accounts for most businesses in SME, whether it's small logistics companies, um, barbershops, uh whatever you know, uh whatever that can be.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um those all need to be made sexy.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Considered incredibly sexy.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very interesting um field that you play in.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, especially our generation, our younger generation, like I'm also an urban migrator, I can call.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: I tend to hop from city to city.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really spend much time on the land to say.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but after you've explained to me uh the goats, what was it gonna be?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would seriously consider that if you know I would have a garden in Paris where I could attend to that goat because I don't really want it in play.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're making it sexy because we love skincare.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: Skincare is sexy.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's actually a new product also coming out of the way.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: And do you think it would be also beneficial that governments start running programs to make farming sexy again, to build more representation, or is that something you would have to do with the controlling prices for the guys are eighty minutes?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: But also when you were in incubators on the way that you know, people should look at agribusiness in in Kenya or in general.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that takes time, takes money, takes investment, takes patience, capital, probably as well.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'd like to ask you, because I mean, talking about perception and narrative, can you tell me what in in one, two, or a few sentences, if you want to, what Kenya is and what Kenya isn't?
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Bring your business mindset here.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we have a little bit of an extra video shot here, um, because we had some uh some more questions we wanted to ask you on uh why this is so important and how this works.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you for that.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's um a digital infinite company, digital footage.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have some piece of the page that you're putting the which you put on the code.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah for the good yes or the photography, you don't call it anywhere else.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Know your livestock.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole database of that animal.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what does this mean?
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a numbering system we use.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: K E means Kenya.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the number 0554 is for the animal.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the tags, the ear tag, it's called an ear tag, sits on the cow's ear as it's shown on the logo.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: Our logo, yes.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: The reason why this is important is because it helps us to profile the animal for so many reasons.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: Breeding, healthcare, you know, um, positioning it as a collateral, that is risk mitigated for loans, etc.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how you punch it in.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of the many different uh applicators.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: We punch it into the cow's ears.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we have different types.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: For example, like at which at which age, by the way?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Or does that not matter?
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it as soon as they're registered?
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um as soon as they are born, so to say, give it something.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: Give it earrings.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we give it an email.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the the the best the best explanation we do is that we give it a number plate.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because it's an asset like a car.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it helps us also to give evaluation certificates or the value of the cow in form of a certificate.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: We also have others that are quite interesting, like this.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: These ones cut a small piece of the cow's ear for purposes of analysis, the breeding, the type of leather, etc.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we have this one which is called a ruminomagnetic bolus.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is put into the cow's stomach.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps prevent hardware-related illnesses because the cow will often eat metallic items.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is magnet and it holds metallic things in the stomach, preventing the cow from dying.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: So where from hardware?
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: How does it go in?
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: From the case, there's something called a from the front.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, from the front.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bolus gun.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's called a bolus gun.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's this size.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: You put in the ruminomagnetic bolus in, and the vet holds uh the cow.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then you release it into the stomach.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a gun.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're shooting inside the stomach.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then so this is all all metal pieces stick to this.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, yes.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a magnet, yeah.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then it's so it stays in the stomach forever?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: Forever, yeah.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's good because it helps the cow from dying from hardware-related illnesses.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because what is what is the magnet then because it's captures, it captures the different things.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't go through the rest of the system.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: It just stays there.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these cows, when they eat, you'll find them eating metallic pieces, yeah.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which are bad for the cow.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can get hardware-related illnesses or just pierce the cow somewhere in the stomach, especially when it's pregnant, you know, the stomach becomes big and all that.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_00: One very important component for the ear tags is that it is the pathway to insuring the cow.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: And insuring the cow means the farmer gets the peace of mind.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because they can get money once the cow dies from the insurance company.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a peace of mind type of uh a product for the farmer.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then I have another final question for you guys to like be able to grow this business.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: What type of capital would work for you at this time?
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the type of capital we'd be looking for, and I want to briefly speak to the different developmental partners of the world, we would be looking at developmental capital or catalytic capital, so to say.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: We want bridging capital.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: We already exist within the leather uh and livestock and beef and dairy livestock uh value chains of Kenya.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: We all the different components that you need as an investor to put in even huge ticket sizes for the growth of the national um uh uh uh value chain success of livestock.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we are calling on developmental partners, um, catalytic capital, bridge capital funders to reach out to us um online.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or add your contact information, and then if they join, you can yeah, we can definitely tag random.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I see you have one on two.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: I feel very comfortable.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you do?
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's I feel like I'm part of something.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like uh yeah, it's interesting.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm part of a herd now.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's an interesting piece as well.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a unique piece.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we can do a bit better on the colors.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can introduce glitter and some pink ones, and I would appreciate that.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then for sure, for sure.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Happy to bring this international and see what we can do.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is good.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see what we can do progressively.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.