Latest / Market Pulse / What’s on Lenders’ Minds in 2025? Insights from Equifax Advisors

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What’s on Lenders’ Minds in 2025? Insights from Equifax Advisors · Market Pulse

• Speaker 1 (00:00): Professional Intro (00:01): Welcome to the Market Pulse podcast from Equifax, where we break down the latest economic and credit insights to help you navigate today's business landscape. Maria Urtubey (00:14): Welcome to the Market Pulse Podcast. I'm your host, Maria Urtubey, a member of the Equifax Advisors team. As a group, we identify economic considerations and leverage data and analytics to translate into industry insights and recommendations. Ultimately, to support our clients during economic uncertainty, while uncovering growth opportunities in consumer and commercial credit risk. I'm very pleased to welcome back our panel of expert advisors, Tom O'Neal, Dave Sojka, Jesse Hardin, and our team leader Emmaline Aliff. Welcome back. Speaker 4 (00:55): Hi Maria. Hey, Maria. How you doing? Maria Urtubey (00:57): There is still almost a month left of summer, and we're just getting there here in Northern California. In fact, my kids are not starting school until the end of September, and my husband and I are about to become empty nesters. Not sure I'm ready for that. How are things for you? Tom O'Neill (01:13): School started, so it's fall as far as this household's concerned. Jesse Hardin (01:17): Yeah. It's a little surprising how soon school starts, isn't it? Yeah. Emmaline Aliff (01:20): In Georgia's the first week of August. . Maria Urtubey (01:22): Yeah. Oh, wow. So we've been at it for a while Dave Sojka (01:24): Caitlin started on Monday, and obviously then we've got the holidays. Maria Urtubey (01:28): Well, before we begin our friends at Moody's Analytics, we'll share a quick economic update date. Shandor Whitcher (01:36): The US economy is walking a fine line right now. Our baseline forecast still doesn't call for recession, but the risks are high, and this is reflected by our machine learning recession model, which puts the odds of a downturn in the next year, just about 49%, which is right on the edge of where past signals have always proceeded a recession. The pressures are pretty clear. Higher tariffs and tight immigration policies are lifting inflation and holding growth back. We're looking at real GDP growth of around 1.1% this year, which is well below potential. And at the same time, inflation is sticking closer to 3.5%. So we're in a period of mild stagflation, slower growth, paired with stubbornly higher prices, and you can really see it in the job market. Hiring is slowed to AC crawl and restrictive immigration has throttled labor force growth. A year ago, the economy could handle adding 150,000 to 175,000 jobs a month without pushing up unemployment. Shandor Whitcher (02:30): Now that breakeven point has fallen closer to 50,000. Without more workers, we just can't sustain the job gains we've gotten used to. Now, the Federal Reserve is expected to start cutting rates again in September, but it'll move cautiously, likely trimming a quarter point each quarter until rates settle near 3% late next year. The fed is trying to strike a balance between supporting the labor market and keeping inflation under control, all while navigating political pressure to ease policy faster. So the risks lean to the downside, a sudden jump in long-term interest rates, a correction in the stock market, or concerns about US fiscal sustainability could easily tip the balance. Now that said, there are paths to a better outcome. Rolling back tariffs, easing immigration limits or providing targeted fiscal support could stabilize growth. And over time, AI driven productivity gains could give the economy a real boost. That's more of a long game for now, the economy is holding together, but just barely, there's not much room for policy misstep. Maria Urtubey (03:33): Thank you, Moody's. Let's get to it. Over the last months in our podcast, we have discussed key economic themes and predictions at the beginning of the year, all the way to the health of the consumer mid dealer. Today, we're turning the focus to our customers. What do the macroeconomic and credit trends insights mean to them? How are they leveraging this information? What are the Equifax advisors hearing directly from lenders? And what have we recommended as next steps as the Equifax advisors leader, how does the team help our customers and stays tuned into what is relevant for them? Emmaline Aliff (04:18): So since about 2020, we've been operating and, and doing this market pulse series, and that started off with our market pulse webinar, as you know, many of you know out there that led into the you know, things like this podcast. Also what we do is we will engage directly with our, our clients to conduct with them dialogue. That really is I guess an interaction model that we call our market pulse advisory. And it's more of a one-on-one type of interaction that we will have that brings the level of economic insight that we're observing in the market from policy all the way through to you know, things that are occurring in the credit data. And we do try to understand and help them to figure out specifically if you're operating a credit card, mortgage, auto, how are you impacted differently by the economic policies and what then is occurring within, you know, the credit spectrum space that you're operating in, and are there different actions that you could or should be taking as a part of that exercise? And, and we will span a lot of the you know, the areas all, all the way from marketing and prospecting, you know, through to you know, more collections based situation to really help navigate really what's, what's going on in the market. Maria Urtubey (05:33): Well, you touched on economic and credit trends. Maybe let's dive into that, Jesse. What are our, our customers focusing on and watching more closely in these areas? Jesse Hardin (05:45): I guess since you went with me first, I'm, I'm gonna pick the longest running topic I think that a lot of our customers have really asked us about, and that's gonna be the student loan resumption. And we talked with customers, you know, from I think 2023 on about student loans and the notion that student loan is the, the resumption of payments is starting, and then the, the reporting of those payments and the statuses of those payments were gonna start. And it has taken a long time, I think, to kind of get to the point where we're at now where we started talking at the first of the year about when those payments would would really show up and, and the status of the delinquency status. And so I think a lot of customers were really interested in understanding you know, who are the customers, what do they look like, how are they how are they you know, structured my portfolio? Do I have a lot of maybe we call exposure to, you know, to that segment of the population and, and really just understanding, I think our customers really wanted to understand what does it mean for them? What's it gonna mean in my portfolio? So I think is in my mind as I think of the market pulse advisories that I've done, that was one of maybe the biggest questions we got is really trying to understand a little bit more about that direction of, of where student loans is going. Maria Urtubey (07:09): Yeah. And as you said, it, it took a while. I joined in 22, and that's when we started looking into it. So it's, Tom O'Neill (07:15): It goes back even bef Yeah, it essentially, we, we started talking about it when the Cares Act came in in Yeah. 2020. And I now, granted for several years, it was almost like the, the boy who cried wolf, it was like, Hey, you know, we should be looking at this. And, but there was really no reason to look at it, you know, because the deferments just kept getting extended, you know, people didn't have to make payments, you know, interest wasn't aggregating. And so the, the can was kicked down the road for a long time. Finally, as Jesse was saying, in 23, the can stopped being kicked, sort of , the deferments, but they still didn't really have to make payments on it until 24. And then even then, it's like, okay, you know, here, you know, we're finally at the point where people need to start making payments or, or it'll start showing up on their credit report. But even then there was, okay, well, not until they reached 90 days, and so now we're getting to 2025 and, and we're finally after, what, five years, you know, at the point where a lot of this is coming home to roost. Maria Urtubey (08:29): Yeah. And then reporting Right. With the on-ramp got postponed as well. So there were all these like, changing circumstances. Yeah. Jesse Hardin (08:35): Maybe one of the bigger concerns was, was like Tom said, and you know, in terms of like, when do you start measuring and you know, what, what are we seeing? But really in the context of the economy. So like, Maria, to your question, when we've talked about the, the K shape of the economy, it is like the aggregate of everything that's happening with these consumers. And this was just like one more thing added on top of all the other things happening. So, you know, I think that was a, a maybe an area where our customers were really looking to say, okay, if I know that there are stressors out there, then, you know, what does this do as a, as yet another one, you know, added on top of all the other things happening. Tom O'Neill (09:15): Yeah. You, you mentioned all of those other things happening. I think, yeah, an obvious one that we've been sort of wrestling with over the, the past several months now is, is the notion of tariffs. But, but similar to student loans, on the surface it seems pretty straightforward. Hey, there's this topic we should, you know, measure it. We should see what the impact is and, and all, but the real world makes that, you know, much more difficult. In the case of student loans, it was deferments and, you know, timelines and what's gonna happen and when, and you know, who's gonna be impacted. And to a degree, it's very similar with tariffs. Like on the surface it's pretty straightforward. You know, here's the, the topic, you know, we should measure it. But in reality, we know that tariffs is a constantly shifting fields, you know when is it going, you know, when are things going to be impacted? How much, who's going to be impacted? Not only are they not clear at the very beginning, but it's a constantly shifting playing field. So it's, it's keeping us on our toes for sure. Dave Sojka (10:21): Yeah, that's what I was gonna touch on. When I, when I kicked off the market pulse advisories back at the FinTech meetup, we had just had the tariff announcement. The, the big board came out and there were all the tariffs, and the market reacted by dropping 900 points. And the main thing that I got in talking with the clients I met with was the uncertainty that that presented. So, you know, again, in and of itself, tariffs, what does that mean? But it's the uncertainty in terms of what industries is that gonna impact? How much is that impact, does that change behaviors for both small businesses as well as consumers? And then going, kind of touching on the student loan topic again, well, why did that matter to me? Well, it was the, the drop in score that many customers were unaware of when, you know, they, they make loan decisions and they get a score, and that score sits for potentially for a year or two, knowing that this, you know, this cohort of American consumers who are going to be negatively impacted, some as high as over a hundred point drop in their score, if, if lenders were not updating that, they were then going to be potentially making bad decisions or relying on information that was outdated to assess the health of their portfolio. Dave Sojka (11:59): So I think those things is what I kind of heard relative to that economic and credit trends. Question, Maria? Maria Urtubey (12:08): Yeah. And Dave, you bring about Good point, because there was also the assumption it doesn't affect me. And we've seen in discussions with our customers that 10 to 15% of their customer base holds a student loan. So to some degree not, of course, everyone is losing a hundred points. Some are keeping up with maintenance, but the volume affected is, is considerable. And Dave, you touched on a good, you started looking into the differences by industry verticals. Maybe let me shift to Tom on that topic. Can you maybe highlight a few of these differences based on some of these conversations with your customers on what is relevant and, and sure we can contrast the economic and credit trends metrics and how these vary by industry? Yeah, Tom O'Neill (12:58): Sure. I'll take one specific vertical for, as an example. One that I've been working closely with is the credit union space. And, and as many of you know, the auto lending topic is of utmost importance to most credit unions. It's a primary way that a lot of them bring in new members. It's a big book of business for, for many of them, especially within the indirect space. And so, right off the bat, at the beginning of the year, there was the concern, well, how is the impact of tariffs and everything else going on in the auto industry going to impact our ability to lend and, and the volumes and, and the quality of that lending, you know business. And it's been interesting as we've been going along, the nature of these advisory shut session discussions has kind of shifted. Tom O'Neill (13:55): Yeah. Yes. There's still the, the desire to know, okay, what, what is going to be happening within the industry in terms of overall prices of new and used cars and, and our ability to lend and so forth. But there's been more of a heightened shift in terms of the dynamics of that lending. What I mean by that is who are the players within that field, you know, how is it shifting between the banks, credit unions, captive lenders, and other types of lenders? Because there has been a lot of dynamic within there. And a lot of it is driven by these sort of market forces that are impacted by tariffs and, and everything else, you know, supply chain and other topics. So it's another example of where we have this sort of macro topic that, that we say, well, this is gonna be an impact, let's measure it. But how we measure it and how it impacts is different by who we're talking with, you know, at, at any given point in time. Jesse Hardin (15:00): Tom, you bring up a good point. I think when you talk about measuring, and even, even to some extent, I think, you know, one of my learnings really with some of the market pulse advisories that I did is, is the, the customer wants to know about and, and by industry wants to know about the topic of you know, at hand. So how does the tariff apply to my customer base? But it's also understanding like, how do I, how do I measure that impact? And then what do I do about it? So what is that, you know, what is that next step that I can take that I really am looking for guidance, I'm looking for advisory. I'm looking, you know, for that you know, that suggestion as to how do I, how do I take this information and then apply it to my business? Jesse Hardin (15:47): And, you know, we saw a lot of that, I think with customers, you know, kind of back to that student loan discussion. A lot of customers said, okay, that's great. You know, this is happening. I don't even really know, like in my portfolio, how many loan holders I have that have exposure to student loans. You know, is that something that you can start to help me with? Right. And then, you know, okay, now that I know that, you know, what do I do about it? What's the timing? What are the, the things that I can incorporate into my policies? And I feel like, you know that was an area that was an aha moment for me at least, you know, especially by industry, you know, when we think of just like you said, even by industry, but then by sophistication, you know, I think some customers largely were following and understood and were on top of it. And then others were, you know looking for help, you know? So I think that was something that kind of stood out to me as well when I thought about, you know, by industry what, you know, what, what application was there for you know, for the advisory work that we've done. Tom O'Neill (16:47): Right. Yeah. And I'd say, you know, going back to what Emily was, was mentioning about the advisory sessions at, at the very onset of this and how it's an opportunity for us to share information, but it's also a, as we've been talking here a wonderful way of, of hearing, you know, directly from the client. And, and it actually sort of fills a middle ground, you know, between different conversations that we have with, with our clients. We have a lot of things, our, our market pulse webinar, for instance, where it's kind of a one way direction. We're sharing information with our clients and, and with others. And we also have round tables and panel discussions where the focus is really to listen and hear from our clients. These advisory sessions are kind of the best of both worlds, where we're sharing information about what we're seeing from at the macro level and, and industry level. Tom O'Neill (17:45): And they're sharing information about what they're seeing within their portfolios and at a local level. And it makes both sides of the conversation richer. And, and to your point there, Jesse, it also starts really fleshing out the value of taking this information at all of the different levels that we can provide, you know, in terms of, you know, not just to those macro level, you know pieces of information, but also, you know, being able to team that with portfolio level analysis, lost sales analysis, things like that, which is sort of bringing the top down together with the bottom up and, and, and doing that in tandem with the with the clients, which is really what I've found, you know, most, most enriching, you know, through all of these sessions that we've been going through, Maria Urtubey (18:41): It's in a way cross checking the relevance of what we are discussing and find you know, as the hot topics versus what, as you said, Tom, the actual in the, at the, you know, in the field specific topics of interest and even topics that might create some shift. And I was going to turn to Dave on, on this specific topic to get us started. How given these conversations, this listening, how have our customers focuses shifted for the remainder of 2025 with all this insight and new understanding and these conversations that we're holding. Dave Sojka (19:19): Yeah. In preparation for, you know, for this for this recording, I went back and looked at what were the market conditions back in March. And then I looked at kind of where they were at, you know, back in May and kind of where we're at today. And I would say that the biggest thing early on was the stress and uncertainty of what the market conditions were actually gonna be. We didn't know there were proclamations made, there were executive orders signed, there were things talked about on in one week, and then the market reacted. That's either the stock market or the bond market. And then things changed again. So I think there was a high level of uncertainty when I engaged with, with clients early on, it was, obviously you're in the early part of your 2025 plan, how are you doing the forecast? Dave Sojka (20:19): Mm-Hmm . And many said, because of the uncertainty, we're gonna stay pat. And the more recent ones, in some cases, whether that was, we're seeing less people applying for credit, whether that be we're seeing less people utilize the credit they have with us, or we're seeing higher or lower repayment of said debt with us, we're having to make changes to our strategies. So I think not enough information early on was we're taking a wait and see approach. What I've heard more recently is, okay, now we've got six months, seven months worth of data, we're gonna act on that for the rest of the year. Emmaline Aliff (21:06): Yeah. I think the, you know, to add to that you know, we, we constantly, while we asking our audience what are the various actions they're looking to take? And I think the theme is very consistent, depending on whether or not we ask the audience members whether or not we're operating it even within our own businesses. And also what we're hearing even commentary from the Fed, and it's, there's oftentimes a wait and see, we need more data. And I think, you know, leveraging that approach of the wait and see, we need more data that'll impact things like, will the interest rates change? You know, we're seeing, you know things, you know, according to you know, in inflation, you know, sitting where it's currently sitting we're, you know, seeing things like homeowner's insurance, potentially, you know, continuing to be on the rise, and that all of those things then tie into various levels of affordability. Emmaline Aliff (21:56): But the biggest point about that is trying to do the wait and see approach. And I think the wait and see really is not, don't seek information. It's seek the current information and benchmark it over time. So that way you understand what is the economic perspective, how does that carry through to the credit perspective? And if you're operating in the subprime or prime sectors, what does that mean for your customer base or through the door populations? Will you be experiencing more or less delinquency over time? And really try to understand from a scenario based planning perspective, should you make change or not? You know, because oftentimes there could be opportunity that still exists within that uncertainty. And then you, and versus just you know, doing some form of you know, credit restriction, you know, or raising rates and or raising your cutoffs and things like that. Dave Sojka (22:46): One of the things, going back to the previous topic about differences in industry or vertical, fintechs are very nimble. They can react quickly. They're set up for that. Banks, credit unions have committees upon committees to decide upon can we make those changes? So I think taking the information that we just said in terms of what shifted and having that information, acknowledging that you might need to act differently, will help again, customers as, again, as their, as those things have shifted over the rest of this year. Sorry, Jesse. Jesse Hardin (23:23): No, I think that's a great point, Dave. And I had actually seen some research on that and, and one of the recommendations that we've been talking about as part of some of that research is this notion or idea of like a go team. And it's exactly what you said. It's like, what if we build a, you know, a team that's nimble and that has the backing of senior management to look at the shifts or pattern changes in the marketplace to say, okay, if we see this action, our reaction is gonna be this, you know? And so it's almost like a team that's ready with policy changes a hand even back to what M said, not just not just corrective actions for risk purposes, but also looking at opportunity. Jesse Hardin (24:14): And, and I think it's overshadowed. I think one thing I've seen with some customers now is maybe a focus shift is exactly what em said is now that you have a little bit more certainty, where are those pockets of opportunity specific to maybe seeing how some credit segments are reacting and then that dictates, okay, I'm either gonna maybe pull back there and move to a,you know, a different you know, credit tier and or you know, maybe just market a little differently. So really taking that data, taking that knowledge, and really starting to, you know, to shift the policy or the way that you react to the data that you're looking at. Maria Urtubey (24:55): And to ensure maybe going back to what Dave was saying in the FinTech space, how nimble they can react in this go-to team Jesse envisioning of course, the approvals and some of those aspect that might make that reaction when appropriate quick, right? And to keep up with, with that competition that has that fast response, right. When, when the growth opportunities merit. Yeah, Jesse Hardin (25:22): Exactly. How's it set up? Like how do we set up that team so that we can, we can react quickly? That's the, I think that's the secret when you look for an opportunity to like that. Tom O'Neill (25:31): And I, and I would say that what we've also seen in the absence of that, outside of the FinTech space, outside of organizations that have a go-to team equivalent, is that the shift is, is the shift to doing less like that wait and see mindset that Emily, you know, mentioned that in itself is a shift. It is moving to a more conservative, deliberate approach, you know, outside of these, these environments that Dave and Jesse were describing. And, and I've seen that going back to the, the credit union auto space that I was just talking about. You know, we've seen how you, in the absence of this nimbleness, the natural tendency is to, to go more conservative. We've seen auto lending shifting even more towards the prime, super prime space. You know, Jesse, again, you know, mentioned Yeah, same with the K shape, you know, earlier the, the discussion. It's another example of that where, you know, it's not that they're stopping business altogether, they have to make, you know, make lending decisions. It's what they do, but they're going to do so in a very conservative and, you know, button down approach, you know, given the, the lack of information that they have. Jesse Hardin (26:52): Yeah. I think everybody likes this. We're Emmaline Aliff (26:56): So excited. Jesse Hardin (27:00): I just wanna respond on, on that specifically and what you were saying them about, wait and see, one of the surprises to me as well is, is what happened sort of mid-year when we started seeing the consumer sentiment, what we call that soft data, maybe dispersing a little bit from the hard data, that hard economic data, which was at one point showing that things were better and that consumer sentiment was worse, and then sort of flipped around where consumer sentiment's better, and then the lagging data that lagging hard data comes in looking a little worse. And so it's like, you know, when you think of wait and see, it's like, I'm waiting to see, but what am I seeing? You know, am I seeing data that's telling me something directly, or am I just, yeah, like, like how do I, how do I actually think about this data? You know, and, and that's exacerbated by the just the sheer amount of news stories that come out, you know? So it's like how, you know, how do you actually cut through all the data to better understand, okay, what am I reacting to? Emmaline Aliff (28:00): Yeah. That, that was the point I was gonna touch on. I've had the opportunity to speak with many auto customers this year, and specifically knowing how front loaded that space went. 'cause, You know, we had, we, we, of course, our operating with, you know, dealing with the overall macro conditions, dealing with potential credit losses, but then there's also the, you know, how are people in general reacting to these things, either from a sentiment standpoint or their own personal interpretation, whether that's informed or not on the economic policy. And so we did see a lot of frontloading you know in particular in the auto space with you know, many you know, many of our customers having really, you know, strong first half of the year. And now we're trying to see where that will end up, you know, going into into the second half. But again, there's certain things we, we may or may not be able to predict that. And so it's having the opportunity to know if, if people do have an interest, what is that interest? Where is it coming from? And do they have the capacity to you know, operate their credit within that you know, within the loan that they're looking to offer the deal that's being made to them. Maria Urtubey (29:07): Let's, let's switch a little back in the interest of time. And, and of course, we would need a longer podcast to address all of these insights. And I appreciate again, the canid share of all the differences, right, that we get to, to expose and contrast here. To wrap up the discussion, and specifically with, with all these different nuances that we are addressing, what if we were to bring up, if, if I were to ask you for one recommendation that has resonated the most this year if you could share, which one would that be, and then which one has not stuck as we had envisioned originally, if you could share that top recommendation and which one has not. Should we start? Jesse Hardin (29:56): You wanna all go at once? Tom O'Neill (29:58): ? Okay. Maria Urtubey (29:59): Jesse, why not? Tom O'Neill (30:00): We're trying to be good . Yes. Dave Sojka (30:01): Yeah, I know, Jesse Hardin (30:02): I know. I'm raising my hand. . Okay, Maria Urtubey (30:04): Go, Jesse. Jesse Hardin (30:05): Well, since again, I get to go first, I'm gonna steal the one that I like the most, which is I heard it from a wise person this year, but the biggest way to address uncertainty is through data and understanding. So it's really using that data to you know, to dictate what my, you know, what my future actions might be. And we saw that a lot with historical data. If you think about inflation and things that we've seen in the past that's you know, great information to use moving forward. Maybe the one that, that didn't stick was the one that I just mentioned, which is, you know, in theory I love this idea of this go team, and I know some people have used it. It may be organization specific and it may be too hard to do. So you know, just the notion that you can have one dedicated team that can kind of dictate policy quickly you know, that I think maybe in theory looks like a really good way to move, but maybe it's not as easy to execute on. Maria Urtubey (31:11): Thank you, Jesse. Let's turn to Dave. Dave Sojka (31:14): I would say the, the one recommendation was not every indicator is a one size fits all to the, to the client. A small credit union might look at the tariff impact differently than a larger credit union. Same thing in vertical. So I think it's really taking the information, looking at how much it's going to impact you, and then how much are you willing, actually willing to commit to address or take advantage of that issue. And it's not a one size fits all solution. The one that didn't necessarily resonate was talking to clients about looking at your customer holistically. I'm talking to the card issuer and they wanna know about, and they say, Hey, we're talking anything about BNPL. And I said, have you talked to your deposit side? And they said, why? And I said, because every month the payment goes to A-B-N-P-L issuer. They would have that information there. Yeah. We don't cross business lines. Yeah. So a lot of financial institutions don't talk across business lines to address an issue more holistically for their customers. Tom O'Neill (32:35): Yeah. Dave, you had me really scared because I thought where you were going with that was the, you know, the one that didn't resonate was exactly the one that I was going to say did resonate. So, but you went in a different direction. You were talking organizationally, holistically, as opposed to looking at the consumer holistically, which is where I was going to go . So I'm wiping the sweat from my brow from . How am I gonna pivot? Yeah. With my answer, both of the, the resonate and the non resonate for me, get back to things that both Dave and Jesse were talking about. Dave was talking about, you know, sort of a, this notion of one size doesn't fit, or one, one index, one measure doesn't fit all right? Different organizations in different circumstances will rely on different things that are of importance to them to make their decisions. Tom O'Neill (33:30): You know, Jesse went back to the theme of, you know, the greatest way to address uncertainty is with information with data. And from my perspective, what I'll start off with, the did not stick. You know, we've been harping on, and not just us many within our industry have gone on about the power of alternative data. We've been calling it, you know, this differentiated data, this data that gives us views beyond the activity you, to what consumers are doing and what situation they're in beyond what traditional credit data provides. And I'm not changing my tune in terms of the relevance of that. It's, you know, we've seen time and time again that does provide, you know, richness. But what it does, it provides richness into a specific area of someone's financial life. You know, the credit area specifically. Tom O'Neill (34:27): And that's important. But what I think, you know, is starting to become more and more obvious given the conditions that we've been in and given how different populations have been impacted by those conditions differently, is that it's even more relevant to take that holistic of view of the consumer, you know, so not just, Hey, what's his credit score? What's, you know, what's his payment history? But what are the other aspects of that household's financial standing? And how does that roll up to broader populations so that when we start to look at macroeconomic conditions and we start talking about things like the khap economy and, and you know, how different populations are thriving and some are struggling, we could actually understand that to a different degree. Why are some populations thriving? Why are some struggling? You know, it's not necessarily because they have different credit scores or different income bands. It's all of these, you know, things together. They're assets that they've built up over the years that they could fall back on. Are they homeowners or not? Do they have investments that they can use to weather economic storms? A lot of different things that I think we've talked about in general over the years, but it's becoming more obvious that is of relevance. Maria Urtubey (35:54): Thank you, Tom. I asked for one, I should have also asked, and now I'm turning to for a timestamp on, on the response as well. Yeah. Just em, if you could share the recommendation that has resonated and the one that has not you know, stuck to, to, yeah. As, as spend. Emmaline Aliff (36:14): So I think I'm gonna go philosophical here. And my, I'll give you a one liner on the philosophy of, of what I think has been occurring, and Jesse really tapped into it. I think specifically with respect to how preparation and opportunity seem like luck, but oftentimes it's the counterintuitive choice that transforms chance into change. And so when we think about how we're doing that, it's like the, where do you find that opportunity that might seem counterintuitive, that really, you know, propels forward, you know, any form of change. And, and so I would say it's, we're, we're very opportunistic is the, is the main point I would say is what I'm seeing hold through. Maria Urtubey (36:56): Thank you. And maybe that's a wrap. I think I was going to add the more along the lines of what Dave shared on beyond us versus of us customer information and how to get that holistic perspective for these type of opportunistic situations, right? And when the growth mindset is set appreciate, again, sharing those recommendations. Thank you, EV. Thank you Jesse, Tom and Dave for joining me today for sharing your insight and relevant themes. And this is from over a hundred customers discussions across industries and verticals in the us, including how we connect these insights with actions to our listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's topics. As a reminder, your feedback is important to us and critical to conversations like the one we had today. If you have questions or suggestions for future podcasts, please reach out to us at risk advisors@equifax.com. We look forward to hearing from you. Speaker 10 (38:00): The information and opinions provided in this podcast are intended as general guidance only, and are subject to change without notice. The views presented during the podcast are those of the presenter as of the date. This podcast was recorded and do not necessarily reflect official positions of Equifax. Investor analysts should direct inquiries using the contact us box on the investor relations section@equifax.com.