Latest / The Midlife Rebel Podcast / Real Girl's Talk: Midlife, But Not As You Expected - Angela Burk

Transcript

Real Girl's Talk: Midlife, But Not As You Expected - Angela Burk · The Midlife Rebel Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was ragey.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, my kids didn't see the best in me at all.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um my body was changing, my appearance, you know, things were shifting.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then I met it a couple of years after the divorce, I met a new man with this long distance situation.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like all these things.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't, I wish I had the luxury of just like, oh, it's one thing.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality for many of us women is it's not one thing.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's all of these things and they kind of happen at the same time.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Midlife Rebel Podcast.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's time to rewrite the midlife story for women who refuse to be put in a box.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe midlife isn't a crisis.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's an awakening.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: For many women, midlife isn't just a phase.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a time of life when everything seems to shift.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Relationships, career, body, identity, and purpose.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today, Angela Burke, is the author of a book that speaks directly into this experience.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Real Girls Guide to Midlife isn't another glossy promise that midlife can be neatly fixed or reinvented with a few simple steps, but a real look at what it feels like when life starts shifting under your feet.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Today we'll be exploring all the midlife things, questioning the stories we've been told about how life is supposed to look and why this stage of life can feel like the beginning of a midlife rebellion.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining me, Angela.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: When I um uh was given the introduction um by your agent for this conversation, I was like, there are more women out there that want to break the rules.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because you think that you're doing it on your own, don't you?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like, yeah, the more you start talking about it, the more you realize that there's a lot of people that or women that are having the same experience.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's been probably one of the most gratifying and rewarding and humbling parts of writing this book.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even when I set out to do it, there were things that I was writing about where, you know, I'm looking around and thinking, wow, everybody has everything together.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the problem must be me.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I must be the only one.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm alone in this, I'm not doing this right.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it was comforting and reaffirming and also very humbling to know I'm not alone.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was never alone.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like like, yeah, it so much of my experience at the beginning of my midlife journey was kind of internalized.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you say, you see everything, everyone else seems like they've got it, got their shit together, and you're the only one who's going through all of this sort of internal emotional turmoil, um, and this yeah, this feeling of change, and then and then you start realizing that this isn't just me.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is a universal experience that that women have.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of wonder what goes on for men in their midlife.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um that could be my next whole other.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: That could be that could be my next book.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is it is very true.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can you start um us off, kick us off with sharing a bit about when your midlife journey began?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like were you yeah, what was going on?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, so the the little secret here is I actually had this book idea when I was 35.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I did.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I was 35.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, I had two of my three kids.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, five or six years into a marriage that I think, if I'm honest, probably had a few cracks in it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was at a career crossroads.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, subtle little things were changing about my appearance, nothing dramatic, nothing tragic, but I noticed them.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I also was having some cycle changes, minor, but enough for me to go, hmm, something's up.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was looking around, literally looking, kind of doing, and this was 20 years ago, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there was no real social media.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking at the people I worked with.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my mom is a really good barometer for me.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: She's 19 years older than me.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of looking at her, um, and I'm looking at my friends, going, man, everybody seems to have their shit together, to quote you.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's got to be me.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I was having all these questions.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I started writing.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had an uh outline for the book, I had a bunch of different questions, you know, serious topics, funny topics.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I was dealing with these things and I wanted to hear from other women and I wanted to hear from experts.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happened was um I put it in.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember those old folders, the file folders?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Mine was red.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I put, you know, I had I kept everything in a red folder, and the folder uh literally, literally and figuratively got buried.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So then 20 a lot happened in that 20-year period.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: But in December of 24, I retired and I was cleaning up a really small pile on my desk that had, you know, moved with me between houses and rooms and offices and all the things.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I found the folder, is basically what happened.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I opened the folder and I was like, well, look at that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure shit.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, still have a lot of questions.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the things that I was struggling with 20 years ago, I kind of got to the other side on, but I had a whole new set of things that weren't even in my consciousness 20 years ago.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I gave myself two months because I was like, oh, you know, the same kind of internal dialogue that I'm I'm working on, but still creeps up.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I to think I can write this book?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Should I write a book?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've never written a book, you're not an author.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the good news is that that process is very much um short-circuited.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I gave myself a couple months to think about like, oh, should I do this?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do this?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Blah.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then I decided to write the book.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I did.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So again, the long wind up to your very succinct question was for me, it started in my mid-30s.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because so many things in my universe were were changing, my job, my relationship status.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I became a mom.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my my hormones were starting to shift.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: But but again, back then I don't even think I knew what perimenopause was.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um my appearance was just, you know, weird, like nothing dramatic, but like, you know, things.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, uh, I have got to be the only one.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it's a pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: That actually midlife is a massive chunk of our lives.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it does kind of come, yeah, it just kind of creeps up on you.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: 35 seems pretty young.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Were the questions in your book and the things that were coming up for you then?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Were they all of the sort of things that I mentioned in the intro, like purpose, relationships, career?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, body.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: They were all those things.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Who am I?
• 7:25
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was all those things, like, you know, and then I had some health ones because at that time too, I was starting to think about baby number three, and it wasn't happening.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was like, wait a second, this is weird.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like baby one, baby two came pretty easily, and now why is baby number three not coming?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so that brought about a set of physical, yeah, biological, as well as kind of psychological topics that sort of messed with me a little bit.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it was all those things.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my role as a wife, my role as a career professional, my role as a mother, my identity, my my physical appearance, my hormones, my health, you know, just everything was swirling.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I had all these questions.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I sort of looked around.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, everybody seems to just be so shiny and polished.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like I was coming to work with like spit up and food on me and disheveled.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, do I do I pursue a CMO track?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do I stay where I am?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of mother do I want to be?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of wife do I want to be?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I and I felt like I was giving, giving, giving to everybody.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was exhausted.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I felt unsteady, you know.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it and it was around that time.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I look back, my 20s were pretty okay.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was there were some big questions.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I hit 30, you know, that's when I got married, and you know, the babies came.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I had an illness at that time too that I kind of dealt with.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And but then it just kind of all like shifted, and I'm like, wow, there's a lot of big questions here.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um was it in retrospect that you realized that this was part of a midlife journey that other women are going through?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you're like, oh, this is all part of the becoming, isn't it?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Of the yeah, the uh yeah, and in in the moment I did not see that, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if I'm honest with you, the 30s were interesting.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: My 40s was probably the decade that I had the most change.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, it sort of never keyed in.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I still, even in my 40s, still felt very much like I'm not doing this right.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow I'm not enough.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow I must be the crazy one.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow I I'm I'm the one that's falling apart.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody else seems to have their shit together.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I was a lot more certain about steps that I was going to take in my 40s than I was in my 30s.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the other hindsight now, you know, this this language that we were raised with, maybe you too, but I know for me, um, you know, we we heard the phrase, I heard the phrase midlife crisis.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I always, and and the fact that my mom and I are 19 years apart, I tried to distance myself.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, who wants to step into anything that feels like a crisis?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I already have enough of those.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to like add.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then two, because my mom and I are so incredibly close in age, in my mind, these things that were happening to her, some of which she talked about, some of which I just witnessed, I was like, ooh, that's old lady crap.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want nothing to do with that, like that's you know, I I physically tried to like um because I didn't understand, you know, and and and so I think I have a a far better perspective now in retrospect than I did in the moment.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I especially my 30s.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think in my 40s, I became much more aware of the reckoning that was happening and the you know the the reclamation of myself in my own my position of myself in my own life.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then it kind of has carried into my 50s for sure, and it and really just been reaffirmed.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking about my my journey as well, and I think I was a well, I think I've just been a late bloomer because I had um my first child at 40 and then my second at nearly 42.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like my I thought that my I was just behind with all of the things because I became a mum late, but then I realized that the the having the children that late was part of this awakening process, maybe you could call it a crisis, um, yeah, that's that has sort of yeah, taken me through my 40s and and 50s.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I it was it was only um quite recently really recently that I realized oh, actually, that has all been part of this yeah uh becoming this this different person.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty intense.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think it's intense if you think about it.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's intense because for many of us women, the change, the turmoil, the the energy that we're feeling that's kind of bubbling and maybe in some cases brewing and spilling over, you you don't just get the luxury of looking at it through one lens, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just happening to one slice of your life.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if I go back and think about my mid-40s, which were probably the most intense period of time for me, I was again at another career crossroads.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my ex-husband and I made the decision to end our 15-year marriage.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I was adjusting to life as now not somebody's wife.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was trying to study my boys and, you know, embrace my new role as a single mother, which was very scary.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I um, so I was doing that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, I didn't realize at that time how close I was to menopause.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So at 45, you know, again, looking back, the signs were all there, but I didn't know enough to be able to label or even have the right conversations with my doctor.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I ended, so I it was right about my, I was you know, almost 48.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the end of my 47th year was when I went that 12-month period with no cycle.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: But at 45, I had no idea how close I was, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew that like things, you know, my kids didn't see the best in me at all.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um my body was changing, my appearance, you know, things were shifting.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then I met a couple of years after the divorce, they met a new man with this long distance situation.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like all these things.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't, I wish I had the luxury of just like, oh, it's one thing.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality for many of us women is it's not one thing.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's all of these things and they kind of happen at the same time.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they're coming at you, and you like you said, you don't always realize until um they've yeah, it's all happened that it was all part of that bigger picture process of um, yeah, the midlife journey.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Would you consider your midlife has been an awakening?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I know awakening often gets associated with spirituality, and for me, my personally, I have found solace in some spiritual practices um as part of my own process.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think awakening, when I think of it in terms of midlife, as awakening to who you really are, uh and and what you know what things are all about, the reality rather than the stories we've been told.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that you've had some kind of awakening in that respect?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do, and I think the words that come to mind for me are um sort of a a reclamation.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, or you know, I I write about this idea of radical midlife self-possession.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, these things are very much an awakening, but it's this it's this realization that says things like, you know, I've been editing myself for a really long time.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that edit comes with a lot of different inputs, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: It comes as the result of a lot of inputs.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: They are inputs that are stories that others told about me.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're um things that are just wired in me, that were wired in me as a child.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: They are things that I began to adopt as mantras and beliefs and values myself.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they became the lens through which I led my life.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that there, you know, and if I if I'm honest, again, looking back, a lot of those beliefs and values and actions resulted in me editing myself.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I was not showing up as my true self.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, my my job was to keep the peace.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I played, I played small, I shrunk, I quieted myself, I contorted myself to keep everybody around me comfortable and happy because I felt like that was my job.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it was for me probably even more amplified and reinforced when I became a mother.
• 17:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I take the marriage as a great example, I sort of told myself this story that my kids deserved an intact family without realizing that it cost me something.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that cost was a happy Angela.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that translated into my boys not really knowing me and me not knowing me.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that for me, awakening is a very good word.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I the the words that that I have used to sort of describe this is more about you know, reclaiming these parts of myself that were there but just buried.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and also, you know, becoming very present in my own life, becoming very possessive of me in my own life.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And these things were new, you know, that that was the new way of engaging with myself and my environment.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, so so it very much is an awakening, but with these other sort of dimensions that were real for me.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you start to uncover the real Angela compared to the Angela that was the people pleaser, the the peacekeeper?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, if I'm honest with you, if I look back, right, if I go back to my 30s and certainly my early 40s, I think, you know the awakening signs were there, were they were there, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um things like I didn't there were parts of my life that didn't even look like mine.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of felt myself living on the edges of my own life in a lot of ways.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't there were things about me I didn't recognize.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would I would be in a situation or I'd be in a discussion and I'd be in it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was almost like I floated above it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, who is that girl?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, and then if I stopped and kind of did a little inventory, like what's happening for me, it was like, damn, I I'm losing the parts of me that make me me.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's kind of the one, the one bucket of realization.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other bucket of realization were, you know, again, these stories that we tell ourselves, they're very layered, they're hard to identify.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I how they would manifest, though, for me would be situations like I would find myself saying yes to things I wanted to say no to, or feeling like I needed to ask for permission or apologize or justify why I didn't want to do something.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: No is a full sentence, and so is I'm not available.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's three words, but I couldn't do that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this idea of asking for help, whether it was at work or in my relationship or in my role as a mom, somehow the story that I told myself was like asking for help meant I was weak.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Heaven forbid I was tired, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: The idea of like looking around my house and going, I need a break, I'm tired, I'm gonna go nap.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like, oh my God, I'm so lazy.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are when you say this out loud, you kind of go, what kind of distorted worldview did I have where I would have to justify and feel compelled to not ask for rest.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: To be to feel compelled at work, the way that would show up is I'd be sitting in these meetings, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was always the one that people depended on when things got messy because I was the people pleaser, I was the fixer, I was the problem person, I was the one who just got things done.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd be sitting in these meetings and I'd be hearing these executives talk.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I also, with that, I have this ability to sort of see three, four, five steps ahead.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you're a racing fan, you can see through the curves, you see past the curves.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I have this innate ability.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd sit in these meetings and I would like not say the thing that I was thinking because I was like, ah, you know, I'm just the doer here, I'm not senior enough.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: These people have far more experience than me.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I hold on to my opinions or I'd soften my opinions.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, why did I do that?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I started consulting, I'll tell you what, people want to know what I know, and I know a lot, but I spent all these decades just like, oh, can't do that, like, mm-mm mm, which was so crazy to me.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And just starting to witness that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that process of starting to witness it and becoming aware of like all of the stories that you've been living by, the rules that you've kind of had created for you or created for yourself, like to fit in, to you know, be acceptable.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the journey into the changing of those things.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that How does that work?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think that there's a couple things, right?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just start with you know acknowledging that the stories that we tell about ourselves or we allow others to tell about us that become our reality are very layered, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of us, they're modeled and reinforced and rewarded time and time again in our lives.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really, you know, you first kind of have to acknowledge that that is real.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, when we acknowledge something, we can move to acceptance.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it becomes the, you know, when you can quiet the noise.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And for me and for a lot of the women in the book, I there is kind of this red thread that says, hey, you're you're aware of it, you acknowledge it, you sort of quiet the noise a little bit and go, like, okay, what is the behavior?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing that feels unnatural?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing that feels bad?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And why am I doing those things?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, you know, a common thread that I think wove into a lot of the ways I viewed myself and my place in my own life was like somehow my happiness and my pleasure needed to come last on the list because otherwise everybody around me was going to suffer.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like I don't want to be responsible for everybody's suffering.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, it meant something was wrong with me.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I think some of us then you kind of take those things and you go, okay, well, I want to make a change.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Change can be equated to failure.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And with failure comes a lot of these emotions like grief and embarrassment and shame and sadness and all the things.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can get stuck in that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think how what I did in my 40s was I was able to kind of see these things come together.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized I don't have to have a perfect plan, but I have to move myself forward.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have to make a change.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes that change can come in the form of a simple sentence, a simple practice.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it'll come in the form of you know, looking at your partner going, Hey, uh, are you happy?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, or I could be happier, whatever it is.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you don't have to have everything buttoned up and planned out.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a I I love a good plan, don't get me wrong.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, sometimes we just have to begin.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that sort of begets the next best action.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is, it's it's a process and it's untangling.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like, you know, when you when you pull a thread, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you pull a thread and it just yanks and the whole thing falls apart.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it gets stuck, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have to really think, okay, what is this thread connected to?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what's that thing connected to?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it it it's not, and I just also want to say, like, this is not about blowing up your whole life, you know, like this it really isn't, but it's it is about being present and conscious of what is happening and why, and then asking yourself, is this what I want?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then being brave enough to say out loud, even if it's an empty room to yourself, I want something else.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's the the the best starting point.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I just um anecdotally, while I was reading your book, there were like I I always kind of prided myself when I was the youngest of three girls, and my sisters, you know, they got in trouble, and so I would see what they got in trouble for, and so I would tow the line.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And all through my life, my entire life, I've thought that I was the smart one, you know, because I never got in trouble or anything like that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it occurred to me only while I was reading your book, like in the last few weeks.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I'm a fucking people pleaser.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I held back on who I was so that I didn't get in trouble.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Trouble.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And my sisters obviously got in trouble for being who they were, and so no doubt they've got their own stories attached to that, yeah, and that's how deep it runs.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: There was another experience I had recently in the last few months where I went away with my kids for a few days, and I didn't want to do the dishes at night, and so I just left the dishes, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're so rebellious.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I woke up the next morning and I, you know, we were having breakfast and I did the dishes, and it felt kind of right, and I was like, Oh my god, I do the dishes to keep other people happy, not because it's important to me.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, and like also, if I don't want to do the dishes, I could say no to that, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, just just those, you know, they're little things, but they that you just realize that there's yeah, there's there's these stories, even if you think that you're rebelling against um you know, all of the stuff that uh it's in there, and like you said, it's embedding it and witnessing it and going, Hang on, am I okay with this?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I gonna do it differently?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: That actually makes me feel really good to know that in some small way, you know, my little book um helped you kind of realize something that maybe wasn't necessarily in your consciousness.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all right, let's get to the book.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um obviously you've been referring to it a little bit, but when you you said that you started writing the book in the in your mid-30s, had you do you always had like this aspiration to to write, or was it because of the topic, because all of these things were changing, and you were like, okay, this these are things that we need to bring out in the open, like what's going on when you yeah, I it's a great question.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if I go back to 35, no, I did not have aspirations to write.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what, but I do like to read.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I'm lost, right, or when I feel like I need answers, and I, you know, to take parenting, right?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I devoured any book I could get my hands on to try to learn how to be a good parent.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it turns out like a lot of it helped.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and now the transition to parenting adults, like that is a whole new, a whole new bag that there's no book for.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, going back, um, you know, so I remember going to the bookstore um and like just looking for books.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, there's nothing here.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I kind of said, like, okay, well, if I'm struggling with this and I'm, you know, the inventory, you know, of my little network, everybody seems to have their shit together.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's got to be people who don't.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So like, I wonder if there's a book in this.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and when I say like in the book, like I had topics, I had chapters, I knew the general structure.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the same structure that I applied to this book.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted my stories, other women's stories, and I wanted experts.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I wanted it to be funny and deeply real and not sugarcoated.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I I wanted to hit some at that time, you know, hell serious topics and not do it in a way that was frivolous or silly.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also wanted to uncover some of the unhinged shit that happens to us.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, I did the inventory.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, there's no books on this.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: So then fast forward, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I find the folder and I'm like, ah, can I, should I, blah, blah, blah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Short circuited that and went, okay, I'm gonna do this.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the other things I did actually in Australia.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when my uh partner retired, uh sold his business, I retired in December of 24.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: I then took my youngest son out of eighth grade, moved him to an online school.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So then we spent like five months in Australia.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: He finished his school there, but we just kind of chilled in Australia.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things I did before I started writing is I went to a bookstore in Melbourne and I gave myself 20 minutes, put a timer on my phone, and I tried to, I was in the self-help section, and I wanted to, you know, again, I have this list of topics and things that I was really struggling with.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I just started picking up titles because I wanted to see, like, you know, maybe there's already a book about this, like who knows?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in that 20-minute period, I had seven books in my hand, like literally in my arm, seven books.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, girl, like I know you like to read, but I'm never gonna read seven books.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them were from the perspective of, you know, the the science, which is great.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, but I'm not a doctor.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then a couple of them were from celebrities, and I'm like, cool, like, love Naomi Watts, love she's writing a book, but I'm not her.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just, you know, I'm just here living, like trying to figure this shit out.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some of them were, you know, written by men, and I was like, okay, I'm kind of want to poo-poo that, but I kind of need to hear from a woman.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them were like way too serious, and I was like, okay, it's not all doom and gloom here.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is not, you know, I was just getting a vibe like, this is just, it's all over.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: You, the your good years are behind you.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck, lady.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was like, okay, this is just not working for me.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of affirmed my decision to go, okay, there's something in this.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And but by virtue of the fact that I cannot read these seven books, like literally, my arms, like I was with my partner's daughter, she was like tooling around the store, and she comes over.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, dude, come help me.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna drop these books.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, What are you doing?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I explained to her, but they were like bulky books, too.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, I can't do that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of just gave me the confidence to say, okay, cool.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's something in this.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that was number one.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then number two, when I started writing, um, you know, I adopted some principles about writing.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of them, if you're interested, you might be, but one of them that was really important to me, and I think speaks to the realness of this book was I started writing, I would write for 45 minutes a day.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you might be looking, going, why 45 minutes?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for me, I would write for 45 minutes.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found I would do if I stretch beyond 45 minutes is I would reread what I wrote and then like soften it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd go back and go, ooh, like, oh, that sounds really bad.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or oh my God, like my dad's gonna flip his lid when he reads this, or oh, like who have I offended?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I found that after 45 minutes, I didn't do that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that was rule number one.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then um as I was writing more, I would, I might have two or three or four sessions in a day if I felt like super creative, but I would never write for more than 45 minutes at a time.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would go back and I would like, or I would rethink.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'd go, oh, like, I can't, like, what?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say that.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or what if somebody reads this, or that's gonna be taken wrong, or somebody's gonna think like I'm a horrible mother, or like whatever.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it helped me to kind of find this rhythm and also preserve the realness of what I wrote about.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't soften it and I didn't edit it because that's a whole I'm not doing that anymore, you know.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um, what uh well, thank goodness you realized that that was something you gotta happen.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: But again, that's one of the stories, isn't it?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, people aren't gonna like me if they hear about this, but it's reality, and that's um one of the things I really loved about your book.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, within the first couple of pages, I was laughing out loud.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some things that happen.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: The one that got me um, well, I loved all of your anecdotes about you know what your boy said to you about saggy knees and um needing to shave, I think.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're the kind of things that my kids say to me too, and so yeah, it was very relatable and like you know, trying to get into some kind of uh spanx in the bathroom.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, jeez, please.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was just so funny.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you were in those moments, did you see the humor then?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it only in retrospect?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them I did.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one of my favorite stories in the book is, you know, being with my boys.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I had the two boys at the time, and I was nursing my second son, and my, you know, he was like four.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: My oldest son comes in, he's like, Mom, your boobies are really big.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, No, you know, I really hope you see big boobies one day.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I said something.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I said, but mine aren't big, like they're and they're not.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, no, mom, they're big and long.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yep, well, he's not wrong there.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so in the moment, yeah, you know, the Spanx one for sure.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not all of them though.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like some of the in the moments, they just felt like, you know, especially maybe the funnier ones I did, but you know, the the hard one of the some of the hardest things that I wrote about in the book.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing I did as I was writing.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I started writing in April of 25, 20, 25, April 25.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in June of 25, I started a Substack.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was basically to get there were two reasons why I did it.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, it was I I kind of felt like I wanted to get feedback on my writing because I didn't know if my style was like actually interesting.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also needed a little bit more affirmation to go like, yeah, these are, you know, people find this entertaining and relatable.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so the Substack kind of helped me, it was kind of like my little laboratory as I was writing the book.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can extract some stuff from the book, throw it in the Substack, and you know, just kind of let it marinate and see what happens.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but some of the hardest things I wrote about, both for the Substack and for the book, were when I had to look back at the way I showed up for my boys in my mid-40s in particular, as I was going through all of these changes and as their life, the life that they knew completely changed, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: They knew two parents in a home, one house, a family that did a lot of stuff together that seemingly from the outside was pretty freaking ideal.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: To now, every their world just changed, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they have no frame of reference for that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: They don't understand the buildup of that.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: They don't understand the the kind and real conversations that their dad and I had, and the the fact that our decoupling was so undramatic.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Their world, they literally went from one day it's this to uh the next day it's not.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And all the while my hormones were out of control.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I was not showing up for them in the way that I needed to.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the letters that I write to my boys in the book, the the apologies that I felt I needed to make to them for the fact that look, in the times where you needed steadiness, I know I didn't give you that.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I gave you chaos and I gave you storms.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And again, like, you know, it it's not that, you know, my behavior was egregious, but I am not proud of it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it wasn't what they needed.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I that was hard because in the moment I didn't feel like I just was like, ah, I don't know what to do.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And every, you know, I'm exhausted, I'm this and I'm that.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I never stopped to really think, what is this experience like for them?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And am I being the best version of me for them that they need?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't do that then.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to reckon with that.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I had to acknowledge that.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very humbling to have to do that.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and then there were times where I felt very alone in that.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my God, I must have been the worst mother.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is I wasn't alone.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I was having this conversation with my older son.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So through the writing of the book, they obviously know I wrote the book, and they've not read every chapter.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's one chapter in there that I was like, I'm I plant a couple warnings to these children.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the boys read their letters, they read their apologies.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And my oldest son, we were talking about one particular dinner that I write about.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, you know, I kind of remember that dinner.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's it's like burned into my brain, into my heart.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I will never forget it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Yeah, I mean, I kind of remember it, but really what I remember is when we drove to the beach before we even got to the restaurant.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and then like, and then I remember the next morning you made like, you know, uh chocolate chip pancakes or some something.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, so maybe it's not as bad as I thought.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh when you're in the thick of parenting anyway, it's really hard.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, there's there's plenty of times I have also experienced where um oh yeah, not my best moments.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I I said, especially when my kids were a little bit smaller, I don't think parenting's brought out the best side of me.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's unrelenting.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real, real hard, hard thing.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: But so I do, I do think that you know, I definitely recognize the humor in some of the stuff.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's helps, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: When you can kind of be in a situation, recognize the humor.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: But there was some of the things that you know I in writing and in reflecting, I had to really get honest about and you know, kind of make amends maybe for some of the things that I certainly wasn't proud of.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, that and then that was hard, but it it's almost like it sounds like it was um a bit cathartic.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know how women, I don't know.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is um something I I think happens with women after you know when we have to share our birthing stories, whatever they are, and it's and it's almost like it's a process of um well, it's like therapy, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's overcoming a traumatic experience.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if you feel like your book, like by telling those stories, by sharing your experience, you've had that kind of being able to process and yeah, through that sort of the trauma that could be included in our midlife journey.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what it also did is it sort of connected dots for me.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it explained certain decisions that I made, it it reaffirmed certain perspectives that I held as true, which really weren't.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um it allowed me to let go of some of the things that I think I didn't even realize I was still holding on to.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it allowed me to, in some cases, um, see other people and other circumstances through a different lens and and maybe be a little bit more empathetic to others and more importantly, maybe a little bit more empathetic to myself.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it I wasn't prepared for that, to be totally honest with you.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, because there were days where I would write some of this stuff, and then I'd have after my 45 minutes, I'd step away and like I'd cry or I'd like be angsty.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what's happening for me?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of this tapping into and acknowledging, and then in some ways, reliving some of the feelings and then like unpacking them.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the biggest things that I think I I recognized, in addition to a lot of the things we talked about in terms of stories and things that I held on to, was this idea that somehow change and and doing something different meant a failure, right?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I if I look back on my marriage, it's you know, and there are probably certain career decisions too.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I look back, I would sort of view these things, change or or differences as somehow being a failure.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then like I would take on a lot of the responsibility for what that meant.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when, and and I I I heard this amplified through women and the experts in the book.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: We we sometimes are attuned to looking at change as a failure.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, grief, grief can come through a lot of different lenses.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can grieve the people that you lose, you can grieve um your identity, you can grieve relationships that change, you can grieve the life that you thought you were gonna live that now looks very different.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and with these two concepts, you know, change equals failure and grief, come a lot of emotions fear, sadness, shame, guilt, embarrassment.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like there's, you know, for me, I think I it added to that was this belief like somebody had a rule book out there.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, on the list of what Angela's doing right and wrong, man, this is checking.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the wrong boxes here.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, there was a lot of replaying of some of these situations.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of looking at it through the lens of change is bad, different is bad, those things are failures.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, you know, I was guilty.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was shameful.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was embarrassed.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was all these things.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, wait a minute, like good came out of those things.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I wish I would have been able to be better equipped in those moments to kind of work through that process a little bit.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think I held on to some of that stuff.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a lot of the self-directed.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was directing a lot of the blame in quotes back to myself.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that some of those stories, they allowed me to kind of release some of that and also recognize in the future, change is not bad.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, different is just different, and it's not a failure.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no magic rule book, nobody's got a book stand lurking in my corners, going, okay, well, look at she was right here, she was wrong.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's doing that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing that.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's no yardstick, there's no measure to what's right.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they're often the biggest areas of growth, aren't they?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: When you can when you can reflect.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, they're part of your story and part of your journey.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And exactly.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what happens with a lot of us in midlife is as we're awakening, as we're, you know, reclaiming, as we're, you know, repossessing, taking back our lives, a lot of the the habits, the behaviors, the beliefs, they creep in.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: But what I notice is like I can short circuit them.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think still at my core, I'm still a people pleaser, right?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know that about me.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I can short, I see when it's happening and I could arrest it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I can short circuit it, and then I can move to something different in in ways that I could never do as a younger woman.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's not like it's eradicated, but man, I I certainly things are a lot easier now because I'm aware.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I can spot it.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I I make a change.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do something different.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're coming close to the end of our conversation.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple more things um I'd love to hear about.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you include in your book expert voices that help to support the messages of your book.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you find them?
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: And do you did you personally use any of these kind of coaches, mentors in your own process?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of the people that I talk to are people that I have used, have been studies in my life.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how I found them actually was I used there's journalists.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm gonna use these words, and I would never have qualified classified myself as a journalist or a writer, but there are um resources that writers use to elicit expert contributions for their materials.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I was writing the book, I started to use a couple of these sources.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is called Harrow, the other one is called Sources of Sources.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a mitigation plan because I thought to myself, look, you're a nobody here.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're just you're writing, you're a first-time author.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Chances are you're not going to get anybody who's willing to talk to you.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's my fallback?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I have like two or three different plans, B, C, D, in case I didn't get any experts.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of those plans that were predicated on me being able to tap the people that have been so meaningful and instrumental in my life.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I kind of had a little bit of a head start.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the I was incredibly surprised and beyond moved by the contributions of experts who replied and said, Yes, I want to talk to you.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And two that stand out for me that were personally instrumental for me in the moments as I was living certain experiences.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: One was um Chris Amato.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: I happened to talk to her.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was in July, right about July.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was as so I had interviewed her for the book and I said, Hey, I'd love to write a blog with you.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Absolutely.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we were doing an interview, and it was on the same day that in the US, the um FDA was doing uh a panel discussion about vaginal estrogen cream and removing the back black box label.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've never listened to a um government panel in my life, but on this day, and and I was starting to experience new symptoms.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: So right, so like all these things are kind of swirling.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: On this day, one of the last things I said to Chris, I, you know, was like, you know, what would what advice would you give, especially to a woman who maybe is getting dismissed from her doctor?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: She said, if you're not getting answers, find a new doctor.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that coupled with this FDA panel, got me in front of my doctor who totally dismissed me, and then to a new doctor.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that to me was like instrumental.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: The second example in this book that was completely like transformative was I interviewed a woman, her name is Diane Heiler.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: She is in her early 80s.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote her first book in her late 70s, having to do with grief.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: She lost her second husband.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: The way she processed this loss was to write.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: She was not a writer, but that's how she processed this loss.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote a book.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: She I interviewed her for the book.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the and I did a blog with her.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: One of the last questions I asked her was, um, you know, and then she subsequently, after losing her second husband, went on to find love again.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, What's been the most surprising thing about finding love in your 80s?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: She said that the parts still work and I like it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, holy hell, that's I am going to strive every day between now and the day I die to live like Diane.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: The parts still work and I like it.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I, you know, I had these experts that I had benefited from.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I met and screened the most amazing experts.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very diligent and thoughtful about who I brought into the book.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there were a few that were just so like divine.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was just divine timing, and I feel so incredibly fortunate.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I with these experts, which is so wild, I still we talk all the time.
• 51:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I would never have known if my friends are.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have.
• 51:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh right.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so it it's really good.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's that like, oh, there are there are professionals who are supporting women in midlife, and you just don't know that stuff, right?
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you even come across them?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Places like your book and hopefully the this podcast.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just a final question.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who's the book for?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your what's your hope for the book?
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about it being cathartic.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um like what yeah, what's your drive and what what do you want to achieve from it?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I would answer this in two ways.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, you know, the book started as being something for me.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And something that was a living example of things that I tell my boy boys all the time.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: We finish what we start, and if we're gonna take a risk, we always bet on ourselves.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a lot of ways, it was for me and for them, and have it an embodiment of these things that I hope my my boys sort of take um and live by.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second one, you know, I have two younger half-sisters and they're in their 30s, and you know, they call me their crash test dummy.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's for the women, for the men, for the people who are going through transitions, who are white knuckling their way through whatever's happening, um, as a way to remind them you're not alone, you're not losing your mind, you are enough, and this too shall pass.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I would answer that question.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely gonna be handing my book on to a friend just to spread the word.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it for me when I was reading it, it was just a real well being knowing that there's someone else that can laugh at those situations, that was a real that was really great for me.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um the experts, the stories, and just the like affirming that this midlife experience, yes, there's some shit that goes down.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: What did you call it?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: Unhinged.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: It can be unhinged, yeah.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that there is um the promise of like a much richer life as we journey through it.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: I refer to this midlife journey as um oh god, I can't even remember the word because that's part of it.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is where we're at.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can't remember the words.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um rite of passage.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a rite of passage, and also I've uh referenced it as a warm-up.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: The first part of our life is the warm-up, and the uh now we're at this point where we're like picking the bits that worked, getting rid of the stuff that yeah, didn't, and like moving on, girl.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot tell you how excited I am to see out my 50s.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait for my 60s, my 70s, my 80s.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: I really this the next set of years.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't wait.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is gonna be so amazing.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: It already is.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I totally agree with you.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I like that framing.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna um be sharing your book with as many people as possible so that women start talking more about this and not not going through the journey alone.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's been such a cool conversation.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've really appreciated your time.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hey there, Rebel.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Midlife Rebel Podcast.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to Buy MeACoffee forward slash Midlife Rebel Podcast.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.