Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #55 - Scaling Up: A Law Firm's Guide to Growth and Capacity Building ft Brandon Osterbind

Transcript

#55 - Scaling Up: A Law Firm's Guide to Growth and Capacity Building ft Brandon Osterbind · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: He forgot that he sent us that case, right?
• 0:03
  It took about a year to get the resolution and we resolved it
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  for six figures and
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: his portion of the fee was 15 grand.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Short strategies, sweet success.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
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  This is Tiffany Swedensky,
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  and you're listening to Sharp Strategy,
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  Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining with me today.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Today,
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  SPEAKER_01: I am talking with Brandon Osterbind,
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  SPEAKER_01: who I met many years ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'm trying to remember when,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it was probably right about the time I started working for GLM,
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  SPEAKER_01: so I guess 2015.
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  And Brandon and his firm,
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  Osterbind Law,
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  they're based out of Lynchburg,
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  Virginia.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they're a great people to know, great lawyers to know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't talk to you guys as often as I like,
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  but I just remember loving Brandon Osterbein and the Osterbeins
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  in general.
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  I guess like I'll just turn it over to Brandon to finish out
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  the introduction.
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  I don't know too much to say except we've known each other for
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  a long time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it was probably around 2018.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you'd been working at GLM for some time.
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  We opened up our firm in,
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  Kelly and I,
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  my wife and I opened up our firm in 2017.
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  And then shortly thereafter,
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  kind of got plugged into the bin glass GLM world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you were and still are a rock star in that world.
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  SPEAKER_00: So
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember showing up at a boot camp,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think in 2018,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then just like thinking,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh,
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  SPEAKER_00: how do they know so much about this stuff?
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  Because I didn't know anything about,
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  you know,
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  all the different ways that you can get clients.
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  I thought it was all like just yellow pages,
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  Google pay-per-click and,
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  you know,
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  all that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: The easy, low-hanging fruit type stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my wife and I are both attorneys.
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  SPEAKER_00: We met in law school,
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  SPEAKER_00: got married right after I finished law school,
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  SPEAKER_00: right before I finished law school,
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  SPEAKER_00: actually about two weeks before I finished law school.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we've been practicing together since 2017.
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  SPEAKER_00: But before that, I worked at a firm, a small firm here in town.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Kelly was a prosecutor here in town for many, many years.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we decided to bring it in and work together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people ask us how we do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually easy for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  when you get along and when you go through law school and do
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  like really hard
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  SPEAKER_00: things,
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  SPEAKER_00: hard things, you learn how to kind of work through those issues.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we joke that we don't fight, we mediate.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're always looking for a positive solution for both sides.
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  And maybe you mentioned it and I missed it,
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  but where'd y'all go to law school together at?
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  SPEAKER_00: at Liberty University School of Law.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Kelly was in the first class.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they opened up the doors for the law school in 2004.
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  And Kelly was graduating from undergrad and decided that she
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  wanted to go.
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  And I graduated from undergrad in 2005 and started law school
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  that same year.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so she was a year ahead of me.
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  So I like to steal her outlines in law school and she would
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  never voluntarily give them to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it was a little cat and mouse game, but it was a lot of fun.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is so cute.
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  SPEAKER_01: Are you both doing primarily legal work now?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is she doing the marketing?
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  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing the marketing?
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  SPEAKER_01: How are you guys splitting that up right now at your firm?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: we both do a little bit of legal work,
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  but she is doing more business related stuff and I'm doing more
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  of the marketing
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  SPEAKER_00: stuff.
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  So you think about payroll and all the business stuff that has
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  to happen just to
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  SPEAKER_00: make the wheels continue to turn.
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  And then I'm doing a lot of the marketing,
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  most almost all of the marketing right now.
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  And we have a couple of other attorneys or two other attorneys
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  right now on staff,
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  SPEAKER_00: soon to be a third.
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  We're welcoming a third in next week to help us get some more
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  of the legal work done.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how we divide up the workload.
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  And I'm always kind of curious about that because I love my
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  husband to pieces,
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  but also I could never imagine like working with them day to
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  day and stuff like
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  SPEAKER_01: that.
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  But I guess you guys just have that kind of easy charisma
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  together and just able to
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  SPEAKER_01: work and go home and all that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is it ever difficult or challenging?
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  I tell people that she just tells me what to do and I do it and
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  that makes her
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  SPEAKER_00: happy and the stuff gets done.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit of a easy relationship that way.
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  SPEAKER_00: I will say too,
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  SPEAKER_00: we've kind of set it up to where,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: she doesn't have an active court schedule.
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  So she'll do some work on cases and make sure that things are
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  moving forward from
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  SPEAKER_00: that perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: But for the most part,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we we have four small kids,
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  SPEAKER_00: not small with 14,
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  SPEAKER_00: 12,
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  10 and seven years old.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's really active.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot going on.
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  So we kind of designed our practice to be able to be flexible
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  so that at least one
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  SPEAKER_00: of us,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we need to take off for any reason,
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  SPEAKER_00: on any day,
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  SPEAKER_00: that can happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: So field trips, she's always going on field trips with the kids.
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  SPEAKER_00: She leaves early and picks them up from school, those sorts of things.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I take off on their birthdays as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: We take them cupcakes for all their friends.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, not the middle schoolers and high schoolers.
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  SPEAKER_00: They don't want cupcakes anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the little ones still want cupcakes on their birthdays.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we'll do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But we've really designed our firm
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  Just to be able to have that freedom to where even if I can't
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  be there because I've
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  SPEAKER_00: got depositions or court or something like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: she can absolutely be there for whatever needs to be done.
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  So and just because I had this conversation with my kids,
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  my husband earlier this week.
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  So do you like require that your kids participate in
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  extracurriculars or do you
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  just kind of let them pick like how do you guys do anything
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  specific with them in
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  SPEAKER_01: that?
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  SPEAKER_00: We've never had to require it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They always want to do things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually like we we kind of have to.
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  SPEAKER_00: We don't know the answer to this, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the fine line of what is too much?
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  SPEAKER_00: Kelly and I were just talking about this.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's so many things.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think my boys, they want to do flag football.
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  SPEAKER_00: They want to do basketball.
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  SPEAKER_00: They want to do it all.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's only so many hours in the day.
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  And my girls both are on the cheer team at school and they both
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  dance and they all
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  SPEAKER_00: go to youth group and church and all that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like it's a never ending list of things to do.
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  So we've never really had to push our kids to participate in
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  extracurriculars.
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  We've kind of just talked about how do we hold them back from
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  doing too much?
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  SPEAKER_01: So are you like managing your own calendar,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  your own email or do you have like a VA or assistant who's
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  helping you with all
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  SPEAKER_01: that stuff?
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  SPEAKER_00: That's been a struggle of mine for a long time.
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  SPEAKER_00: I actually just got an EA from Athena.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of people in our world are using Athena EAs.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're trained really well.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know.
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  It's been helpful to open my email and only see the things that
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  I have to look at
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  because I get so many emails and so many different people
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  pitching me this,
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  SPEAKER_00: that,
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  SPEAKER_00: or another.
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  And it's amazing how much brain power and energy it takes just
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  to sort through and
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  SPEAKER_00: delete a ton of things.
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  But now I'm kind of getting almost reinvigorated with email
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  because I'm not having
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  SPEAKER_00: to spend the half hour,
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  45 minutes or whatever it takes to just go through and figure
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  out what's important
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  SPEAKER_00: to what I actually have to look at.
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  I'm in the process of delegating my inbox and delegating my
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  calendar to my EA.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he's doing a pretty good job with it so far.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we'll just keep slowly and surely just getting my hands out of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully my schedule will look a lot better in the future.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's so funny,
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  SPEAKER_01: something like email and calendar,
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  SPEAKER_01: like when I delegated that to Glenda,
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  SPEAKER_01: my EA,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh,
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  SPEAKER_01: like just such a huge improvement in like overall quality of life for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just remarkable.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: like opening,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the actual statistic is,
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  SPEAKER_01: but like opening an email and then opening the next email,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's like task switching.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you go from one task and then you basically have to kind of reset.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it takes,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: like five minutes to fully reset and process what just happened,
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  SPEAKER_01: move on to the new one.
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  And so like addressing each email with like brain power and
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  thought power,
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  it's hard.
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  And it's really hard when you're sifting through where three
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  quarters or more of
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  SPEAKER_01: your emails are just
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: notifications,
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  SPEAKER_01: sales emails,
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  SPEAKER_01: an email you already handled or something that's already been addressed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it gets overwhelming.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember being like obsessed with making my email inbox zero,
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  SPEAKER_01: just keeping it zero,
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  SPEAKER_01: no unread messages.
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  I was,
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  I was a little bit,
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  um,
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  what you call it compulsive about that,
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  I guess.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now like as a business owner,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: like that's,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's a untenable fantasy to have a zero inbox,
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  SPEAKER_01: unfortunately.
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  SPEAKER_01: even with an EA looking over it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I highly recommend it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I hear you.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think I've got 30 or so in my inbox right now.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I actually need to put some brain power into doing things.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're there for a reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're not deleted because they're not junk.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that stuff needs to get done.
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  SPEAKER_00: But to have 30 versus 300, it's a pretty big difference.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what are you guys doing for marketing right now?
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  Like where are you guys focusing like your energy,
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  thought power,
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  budget,
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  all that stuff?
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're getting a lot of cases from referrals.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was actually just looking at this a couple of weeks ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of the cases that we've resolved this year,
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  SPEAKER_00: we've paid out referral fees on about a third of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize it was that much.
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  But one of the things that we did probably two years ago was we
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  sent a long sales
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  SPEAKER_00: letter to all the lawyers here in Lynchburg
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was very crystal clear.
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  SPEAKER_00: Send me your personal injury cases.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that was the big red letters in the very top of the first page.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then I had a discussion for,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  10 or 12 pages about how we handle personal injury cases and
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  introduction to our
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  SPEAKER_00: team and who we are and why we like to do personal injury cases.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because most of the people in Lynchburg are
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  SPEAKER_00: general practitioners,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're divorce lawyers or criminal defense lawyers,
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  SPEAKER_00: or they do like wills and trusts and things like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: There aren't a whole lot,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are a few,
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  SPEAKER_00: there aren't a whole lot of personal injury lawyers here in town.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we really focused our attention on the general practitioners and
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  SPEAKER_00: the people who specialized outside of PI.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then we followed that up with a one page newsletter every month,
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  SPEAKER_00: just telling a story about a case where someone,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lawyer referred us a case and we had a positive successful outcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's been really effective for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've gotten a lot more lawyer referrals since we started doing that.
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  And then people will stop me all the time at bar events or when
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  there's an event
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  SPEAKER_00: over at the law school or something like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I got your newsletter and this was awesome.
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  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe you did that.
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  We had a lawyer who had shut down his practice probably 10
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  years ago or so,
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  and it was only kind of doing part time like collection work
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  for a local bank.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he had never sent me a case ever.
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  But one of the vice presidents of the bank,
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  her niece slipped on some ice and fell.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty serious injuries.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he said, oh, well, go talk to Brandon Osterbond.
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  SPEAKER_00: He forgot that he sent us that case.
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  SPEAKER_00: It took about a year to get the resolution.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we resolved it for six figures.
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  SPEAKER_00: And his portion of the fee was $15,000.
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  So when we called him to make sure we had the right address to
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  send him a check,
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  he just about fell out of his seat when he found out that he
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  was getting a check
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  SPEAKER_00: and when he found out how much it was.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  $15,000 for someone who's doing part-time collections work and
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  retired is a good
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  SPEAKER_00: bit of money.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that has been really effective for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we do a general newsletter as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: So anyone who's ever given us their address for any reason,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're on our list,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: our mailing list.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we'll send them just kind of a feel good,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is who we are,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: life stories,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: that sort of thing,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: newsletter,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: just hoping that they'll remember us and not forget us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because most people just don't care about who their lawyer is, right?
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  And I think,
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  you know,
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  I'm positive I learned this from you and Ben,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like when someone has a personal injury case and,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: time goes by,
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  SPEAKER_00: they have no idea who you were 10 years from now.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked with clients who have been in car accidents.
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  We always ask about pre-existing injuries and accidents and
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  things like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, oh, did you have a lawyer?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
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  SPEAKER_00: Who was it?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's not be that guy,
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  SPEAKER_00: right,
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  SPEAKER_00: who is so forgettable that you got them a good result,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they still have no idea who you were.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the monthly newsletter is really just to stay top of mind.
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  Even if you just live in their pile of mail on their on their
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  kitchen counter for a
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  SPEAKER_00: couple of weeks,
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  like you've gotten a little piece of their attention and they
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  haven't forgotten
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  SPEAKER_00: you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I actually did a webinar yesterday,
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  and I think it's available on Substack now if anyone wants to
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  go and check out the
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Substack and read it,
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  SPEAKER_01: or watch the video rather.
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  But I talked about that on the webinar yesterday where you have
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  somebody on your
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  SPEAKER_01: referral list,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they might be there for years,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you're sending stuff to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's easy to look at your list and be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: this person has never sent us a referral.
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  SPEAKER_01: Cut them.
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  SPEAKER_01: but you're cutting off the possibility of future referrals.
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  You're cutting off the possibility that they might refer you a
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  six figure case,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: one day.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems like a fringe example,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: but you know,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I talked to a lot of attorneys,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of law firms,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: it happens,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: it,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: that one person who you've known,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: and they didn't even remember referring the case to you.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine that was a great surprise.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I bet they love you now.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 15:30
  and but it's it's so easy to like everyone kind of gets main
• 15:35
  character syndrome
• 15:36
  where it's like we think people will remember us forever but
• 15:38
  people forget i don't
• 15:39
  remember my doctor's name like i always try to remember it but
• 15:43
  i i like and i see
• 15:44
  them once a year maybe twice a year i still don't remember
• 15:47
  their name i always like
• 15:49
  have to google it like whenever i come to that part in a form
• 15:51
  or something
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's terrible.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: My doctor never follows up with me.
• 15:56
  My doctor doesn't check in with me or send me a newsletter or
• 15:59
  send me a text.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying they should,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: that's how people end up forgetting about,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: somebody made a huge impact on them.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And actually,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'll mention,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's a small world,
• 16:14
  but I think I have seen that letter that you sent out to other
• 16:17
  attorneys because
• 16:18
  somebody else sent it to me as an example of something they
• 16:20
  wanted to do that was
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: similar.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know who did that.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I shared it with the group I'm in,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: a mastermind that I'm in,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: and I know that you work with one of the law firms in that group.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just say it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Scott Bignere and their estate practice.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, Brad's in the group.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love Brad.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, Brad's a sweetheart.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we're working on getting him to do more video.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he just kind of hates it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's getting used to it, I think.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing a lot of video now?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Are you stepping your toes in the water on that?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I have done a lot of video.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not good at consistently doing good video.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always been a struggle.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've got all the equipment.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've got all the things that I need to do.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've got really no excuse for why I'm not doing a lot of video.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, most of...
• 17:09
  It's really been amazing because if you would have,
• 17:13
  I mean,
• 17:13
  you've known me for a long time.
• 17:14
  You've been in masterminds where I'm in the room and you've
• 17:17
  heard me complain about
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: problems,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: getting cases and what that looks like.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being in a mastermind.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you were probably there four or five years ago.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal was to get three to four new cases a month.
• 17:36
  i think about that now i'm like that's three to four cases a
• 17:39
  month and i'm like why
• 17:40
  can't i get you know four case five cases a month um and like
• 17:44
  as you grow and as
• 17:45
  you put these things into place now we're getting like you know
• 17:50
  11 cases a month
• 17:51
  and i'm like how do i get to 15 cases a month right it's like
• 17:54
  step by step by step
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the, that's where a lot of law firms start.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they start with a, I need two to three cases.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I had a meeting with the vendor and God bless them.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: They were just pitching the wrong business.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you know,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: one of my law firms,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: where's the point where we're signing like 30 cases a month.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm humble bragging on that.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I got on the meeting with a vendor and the vendor,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: said like,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: how would you like to get three to four more cases a month?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's the wrong pitch for this law firm.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone starts there.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with so many law firms who are in that range,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: like signing three to four cases a month.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just grow from there.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always a process.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's never like a light switch.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have to implement stuff.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have to work at it.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: You have to grow your team.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone who owns a small business,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: myself included,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: struggles with problems of scale and just how to fill the pipeline.
• 18:52
  And I mean,
• 18:53
  I feel like there are businesses who like figure it out
• 18:56
  overnight.
• 18:56
  You know,
• 18:57
  I'm sure they exist,
• 18:58
  but everyone else,
• 19:01
  again,
• 19:01
  myself included,
• 19:02
  is just like you.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: We start at this place and then it just takes time.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's awesome the way you guys have been growing and expanding.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, getting to where you are now,
• 19:13
  i mean numbers wise per month it doesn't seem like a big deal
• 19:16
  maybe depending on
• 19:17
  who you talk to but like if you talk to people who know who
• 19:20
  work in personal injury
• 19:21
  that's huge growth and and so yeah like it's it's a it's always
• 19:26
  nice to see
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: somebody go from you know stage one to like stage three to stage five and
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: kind of arbitrarily naming stages, but you know what I mean.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Think of the year, right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're getting three cases a month, that's 36 cases a year, right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're getting 11 cases a month, that's 132 cases a year, right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big difference.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And just the capacity to be able to handle 132 new cases
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: in a year, what I'm finding is pretty significant.
• 20:02
  So we've been working a lot over the last year just on building
• 20:05
  out our capacity.
• 20:07
  And then,
• 20:07
  you know,
• 20:08
  you try to always match capacity with,
• 20:12
  you know,
• 20:12
  the new cases coming in.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 20:14
  how many cases do I need in the inventory to fill a day for all
• 20:19
  the people that I
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: have working here?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like, okay, well, I can't go backwards, right?
• 20:22
  So as I look at it every month,
• 20:24
  I'm like,
• 20:24
  please,
• 20:25
  God,
• 20:25
  don't let me go backwards.
• 20:27
  And then some months you kind of do,
• 20:29
  and then other months you jump forward a little bit.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And on average, we're still sitting here at 11 cases on average a month.
• 20:36
  And I'm still trying to figure out what the next step is to get
• 20:40
  beyond that.
• 20:43
  I will say,
• 20:44
  you know,
• 20:44
  you asked me a while ago,
• 20:46
  like,
• 20:46
  what are you doing?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we're doing the mailers.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing some Facebook ads now.
• 20:52
  I kind of see Facebook ads almost as like a cheaper version of
• 20:57
  a billboard these days,
• 20:59
  right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 20:59
  so I'm not necessarily thinking I'm going to get a whole bunch
• 21:03
  of clicks in new
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: leads or new cases that I can attribute to the Facebook ad,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: but it's almost like the
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: The mailer, like I want to stay top of mind for people.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want people to remember who I am.
• 21:18
  So one of the ways I can do that is I can just constantly show
• 21:21
  up in their Facebook feed,
• 21:23
  right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: With a different version of an ad.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we're doing a little bit of that just to stay top of mind for people.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we're getting a good number of leads from Google local service ads,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: which have kind of ebbed and flowed a little bit,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: When it came out, it was super hot.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then it kind of dried up a little bit.
• 21:44
  And now I feel like it's kind of back on track and we're
• 21:48
  actually getting some
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: decent leads from it.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not doing any PPC.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've done some PPC stuff for us in the past, but the
• 21:58
  The cost to get into that and to actually make a difference is
• 22:03
  so exorbitant right
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: now that we're just not doing it.
• 22:06
  And we're putting that money more offline in different places
• 22:10
  to try to get more
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: people to know,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: and trust us in relationships and things like that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:17
  Google has a limited inventory of personal injury cases to send
• 22:20
  attorneys.
• 22:21
  And particularly when you narrow it down to geographics and a
• 22:24
  lot of money
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: competing for those cases,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: which is why,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Google ad spends get astronomical.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And really like these days, it's like you need at least 15 grand a month
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: to be competitive in personal injury, car accident, truck accident.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Workers comp,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: medical malpractice,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit different,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: but for the major PI cases,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: the ones that most law firms want,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's very expensive.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And with local service ads,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's always ebbs and flows,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: because again,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: going back to that inventory issue.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like you mentioned,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook ads,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love retargeting website visitors,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: people who end up in our CRM,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: our leads,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: our clients.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because clients can see our ads,
• 23:07
  and if we refresh them and they're not seeing the same ad
• 23:09
  forever and ever and
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: ever,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: it reminds them to refer.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: It can help convert leads.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It can help convert website visitors.
• 23:18
  And now my team is experimenting a lot with doing direct lead
• 23:22
  generation from
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook and sending that lead directly to LeadDocket.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't talked about CRMs.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're using LeadDocket.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And well, it's great.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about it all the time because I love lead docket.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we're sending leads directly to the intake team effectively,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: and they're following up with them the same way they would phone calls.
• 23:44
  And what I love about Facebook ads and the reason that it's
• 23:47
  hard to find agencies
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: who do Facebook ads is because it's cheap.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Google ads, you have to pay like an agency fee, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: and the agency fee can be huge in personal injury,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: but in Facebook,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: like you can $10 a day,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: $20 a day and get really decent results and actually get a ton of leads.
• 24:08
  And it's something that lead generation companies who sell to
• 24:12
  lawyers use all the
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: time,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: but you know,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: lawyers,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: just regular law firms are starting to do more Facebook ads themselves.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: At least it seems that way to me.
• 24:21
  And I'm really happy about it because at least it's a space
• 24:24
  where you can do your
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: paid ads and not spend
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: 15 grand, 20 grand a month, because that's just heartbreaking.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to keep the CPA in range, it's terrible.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we're out.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when your advice was,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: if you're not spending $4,000 a month,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: you're not really in the game.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then it went to eight and now it's 15.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the Morgan and Morgan effect probably, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's where they're just,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: the more they go into all these different markets,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: like they're advertising Google PPC in Lynchburg now.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have an office in Lynchburg.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think they might have one office in Richmond,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: but they're advertising all throughout Virginia and all these different
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: metropolitan areas.
• 25:10
  So that's a direct competitor who has unlimited resources to
• 25:16
  bump up those price per click.
• 25:20
  So that makes it super challenging from a Google PPC campaign
• 25:25
  perspective.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
• 25:28
  Was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't
• 25:30
  get to so far in the podcast?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actively interviewing for a marketing specialist.
• 25:38
  I'm trying to find someone to come in and help me get some of
• 25:41
  these things out the
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: door because they're lacking a lot.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things I'll start, but I won't finish.
• 25:48
  If I can get someone else to start some of these things and let
• 25:50
  me finish it,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: that would be a little bit better.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 25:54
  but I'm interested in maybe picking your brain on who is the
• 26:00
  best type of person to
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: look for.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've got several different applicants have come in,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: some with small business experience in their background,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: some with big business experience in their background,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: some with news experience,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: working for news companies.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: In their background,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have a couple,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: maybe two or three of those that have come through this time around,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: which is new to me.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm interested to hear your thoughts on when you're hiring a,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: and this will be our first,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: like really,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: we had one marketing person years and years ago that didn't work out.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I said about two months before it didn't work out.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of swerved off,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm trying to do it different and do it better this time.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So any thoughts or advice that you have from that perspective?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you look for in your first marketing hire?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It comes back to the job description.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: What do you really need this person for?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: But just giving wholesale advice and just what I tell everyone.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: For me,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: you need a marketer who's good with writing,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: who can tell a story,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: more specifically.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because ChatGPT can do a lot.
• 27:13
  I automate a lot of things with ChatGPT and I use ChatGPT to
• 27:18
  assist or do a lot of writing.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like to qualify it.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone uses ChatGPT.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: But ChatGPT isn't always the best at persuasive copywriting.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll stand by that statement.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been proven wrong yet.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so you need somebody who can like,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: one,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: understand what it means to be persuasive and like,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: just tell a story.
• 27:39
  Like that's a lot of what we're doing in content marketing
• 27:42
  these days is being
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: entertaining,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: weaving narratives.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so you need somebody who has that,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: they don't have to have a strong writing ability.
• 27:51
  They don't have to be the best,
• 27:52
  but they can at least like weave a narrative,
• 27:54
  like I said.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the second part for me is,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some technical skills, like they don't have to be like a web developer.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have to be an automations engineer or whatever you call that.
• 28:08
  But they have to be able to use the basic,
• 28:11
  they have to be able to know the basics of a CRM.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you say we use ActiveCampaign or Mailchimp,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know, do you think you could use it?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you can learn it?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And just have them confidently answer yes.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's strange to me,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: because it seems like all marketing is super technical these days,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: but I still meet marketers who,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: how do I drag a button from here to here?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, that's a drag and drop builder.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably some of the easiest kind of interface you could use.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's hard to train and it's hard to like set them loose,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: if they don't have that kind of base knowledge.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have to be a wizard or whatever you call it,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: but understanding and using the basics of most computer programs.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that was the reason I made my first hire, Randa.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: She's worked with me two years.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it'll be two years this year.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: She previously had owned a little small business,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: like a craft business,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: but she's just really highly confident with technology.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: She just doesn't have to ask me how to do this, how to do that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've had to train her on a lot of stuff,
• 29:17
  but as far as open this new program you've never used before
• 29:22
  and figure it out,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: she's really good at that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that's base.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's who you're looking for.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Tells a story, can use computers confidently well.
• 29:32
  And everything else just depends on what you're going to have
• 29:35
  them do,
• 29:35
  I think.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's good advice.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no problem.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: why don't you tell them,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Brandon,
• 29:41
  where you want them to find you on your website or on LinkedIn
• 29:43
  or on social media?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just let them know where they can look you up.
• 29:47
  Yeah,
• 29:47
  I'm on LinkedIn periodically,
• 29:50
  probably more than any other social media site out there.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just Brandon Osterbind, O-S-T-E-R-B-I-N-D.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Always have to spell that because no one can spell it after I say it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can look us up on our website, osterbindlaw.com.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those are probably the two best places to find me.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Brandon, for joining me today and just talking.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was nice reconnecting.
• 30:18
  Thank you everyone so much for listening and join us next week
• 30:22
  for a new episode of
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sharp Strategy.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sweet success.