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Burnout Isn't About Working Too Hard: Building Better Leaders with Naomi Asher · We Built This Brand

0:00
Naomi: It helps us anticipate where we may get frustrated or dysregulated.
0:05
So using the Enneagram for me has helped anticipate some
0:09
of the problems that are going to come up down the road.
0:14
Chris: Welcome to We Built This Brand, where we pull back
0:16
the curtain on the people, the ideas, and the sometimes
0:19
challenging process of building something that matters.
0:22
Today, I'm joined by Naomi Asher, the founder of The Maven
0:25
Consulting, a leadership firm helping fast-growing companies
0:29
and nonprofits build the management muscle they're missing.
0:32
Naomi spent years as a nonprofit powerhouse before going out on her own, and
0:36
she's now an author and speaker who studies executive burnout for a living.
0:40
We get into why she left a career she was winning at,
0:43
what her book Take to the Bed says about carrying less,
0:46
and how you build a brand around a single simple idea.
0:50
So without further ado, here's my conversation
0:52
with Naomi Asher from The Maven Consulting
1:00
Naomi?
1:00
Naomi: Yes.
1:01
Chris: Thank you for coming on We Built This Brand.
1:02
I'm happy to have you here.
1:04
Naomi: I'm so excited to be here.
1:05
Thanks for having me.
1:06
Chris: Yeah.
1:07
It's, it's great.
1:08
I mean, we, we went to college together.
1:10
Naomi: Mm-hmm.
1:10
Chris: Well, our master's program together
1:12
at King, and it's been, it's been a while.
1:15
Um, you've been into a lot of stuff.
1:17
I mean, when I remember working with you at
1:19
King, you were involved in Casa, I believe.
1:22
You were heading up Casa, and you were coming back, getting your MBA.
1:25
And yeah, a lot has happened since.
1:27
So, um, always like to start by just getting
1:29
to know a little bit of your background.
1:31
Doesn't have to be long, but, like, just take us through
1:34
kind of where you started and where you're at today.
1:36
Naomi: Sure.
1:37
So Um, I've got almost two decades of experience
1:40
in nonprofit leadership and management.
1:43
I- my undergrad was in music and theology, which is why I went
1:47
back to get my MBA so that I felt like I was actually qualified
1:51
to be running an organization, and then finished my, my PhD
1:56
this year, and now I'm transitioning into full-time consulting.
1:59
So I've had a lot of fun in, in the nonprofit leadership world and learned a
2:05
whole lot, um, but now I'm, I'm ready for something a little bit different.
2:09
Chris: You mentioned going back and getting your doctorate.
2:11
You were involved in a lot of, um, you
2:13
know, CASA, United Way, Boys & Girls Club.
2:16
Yeah.
2:16
Um, what led you to go back?
2:18
Why did you decide to leave all of that and all those
2:21
awesome leadership roles and go back and get your doctorate?
2:25
Naomi: So funnily enough, I did it because… Well, two reasons.
2:29
Number one, I did not feel burned out at the time.
2:32
I don't know really what it was.
2:35
Like, I'm the first of the females in my family to really be as career-driven
2:41
and educated as I am, and so I, I felt strongly about continuing that.
2:48
A big call for me is to continue to set an example
2:51
for my foster kids, and especially other girls.
2:54
And so the idea of getting a PhD was kind of fun for me.
2:59
I thought, yeah, why not?
3:01
Even after I made my husband promise that he would never let me
3:04
go back to school, I just didn't tell him- … was the problem.
3:07
Um, so enrolled and started school, but then I was looking around at
3:12
other nonprofit leaders and seeing burnout everywhere, but I didn't feel
3:17
it, and so I was really interested and kind of curious why that was.
3:21
And so the idea of getting to do some really
3:23
interesting research was, was exciting to me.
3:27
Um, so it was understanding burnout, but then also understanding
3:30
stereotypes, which has always been a big part of what I was
3:33
interested in and cared about through the nonprofit work that I did.
3:37
Chris: Oh, yeah.
3:38
I, I mean, 'cause I can imagine with what you did across all those
3:41
organizations, there's a lot of people that just assume things
3:44
about the people group you're helping or the person that the…
3:47
You know, the child you're even taking care of.
3:49
So, um, that's interesting.
3:52
For some reason, when you, you said earlier that you had started
3:54
learning about burnout and all this, I was under the impression
3:59
that you were gonna tell me you had some big burnout story to share.
4:02
Is that not the case?
4:04
Naomi: So I do now.
4:06
Okay.
4:06
When I started my PhD, I did not.
4:09
Chris: Hmm.
4:09
Naomi: And interestingly, so when you look at it, I had 17, 18 years of… I
4:15
was one of the lowest paid executive directors in the state, especially for,
4:19
for United Way and the United Way standards, and I was consistently working,
4:23
I mean, 50 hours a week or more, and never felt, felt burned out in that.
4:28
And I took another role where there was
4:33
s- pretty significant values misalignment.
4:36
Um, it just was not a good fit for me, and after maybe
4:41
five or six months, I didn't even wanna get up anymore.
4:45
Um, but I was… I had doubled my pay and cut my hours that I was working.
4:49
So it, on all sides, I should have been so incredibly engaged
4:54
and excited and just living my best life, and I was miserable.
4:58
Hmm.
4:58
And couldn't really understand why until I started combing through my research
5:03
and looking at it through a different lens and seeing the pieces that answer so
5:09
many questions that I think leaders are asking themselves every day right now.
5:14
Chris: So as someone who has experienced burnout in their
5:17
career and their life, what are some of those things?
5:20
Tell me a little bit more.
5:21
Naomi: Yeah.
5:21
So there's three major factors that impact burnout.
5:25
The first is values alignment, and this isn't just, "I wanna work for
5:30
something bigger than myself." It's not like, "Oh, I wanna go change
5:33
the world and, and work for Charity Water." This is more about, am
5:40
I being treated the way that I need to be treated to function well?
5:44
So the level of autonomy or the level of support, the level of
5:49
transparency within an organization, or the flip side of that would
5:53
be, "No, I actually want a little bit more protection. I don't want
5:56
to know as much." And so w- we've got to start looking at that.
6:00
None are right or wrong.
6:01
It's just about being somewhere that you're
6:03
comfortable, so values alignment is first.
6:06
The next one, um, would be conflict.
6:09
So what happens is, if I think I know how you, how to interpret
6:13
the words that are coming out of your mouth, because that's what
6:16
communication is- Mm-hmm … I'm going to be speaking in some assumptions.
6:21
When you think about the way that we communicate, a lot of it is
6:24
non-verbal, but a majority of the way that we talk to people is written-
6:30
Chris: Mm-hmm
6:31
Naomi: or maybe on the phone, and so a lot of that is very verbal
6:35
alone, which means we're probably missing a lot of context clues.
6:38
So we're making these assumptions.
6:41
87% of workplace conflict is based in misunderstanding.
6:44
Hmm.
6:44
I think that's part of it, is that we're not
6:47
really with people the way that we used to be.
6:50
Um, but then also, it's because I, I'm gonna wanna treat people the way I want
6:54
to be treated- Hmm … not necessarily the way that they want to be treated.
6:58
So this then creates a low level of conflict.
7:02
We also have gone from a world where we all experience
7:06
the same thing, mm, to an extent, to a world now where
7:11
everybody's lived experience is completely Catered to them
7:16
Chris: Mm.
7:17
Naomi: And we don't even realize it.
7:21
There are things like the way that the Alexa
7:24
in my house operates, um, my Netflix algorithm.
7:31
Um, this isn't just our social media, which I think we
7:34
all think about, yeah, that's gonna be tailored to me.
7:36
This is every aspect of our life.
7:38
It's my, it's my shopping cart for the grocery store.
7:42
Everything in my world is now an echo chamber, and it's all catered
7:47
to the way that I already think, and believe, and expect things to be.
7:53
So all that begins to create conflict as well.
7:56
And then the third one, um, after you've got your
7:59
values, then you're living in this constant conflict.
8:03
Probably what's gonna happen is you're gonna lose a lot of confidence.
8:07
And so it's confidence and competence.
8:09
It can happen two ways.
8:10
If you're living in conflict, you're gonna feel like you're not good
8:12
at anything, and so that's gonna cause, um, a lack of confidence.
8:17
The other, with competence, is we put people in roles
8:20
without any kind of education, training, support.
8:22
We just say, "Oh, you're good at frontline- Mm-hmm
8:25
supervise everybody else on frontline." Mm-hmm.
8:27
And so when those three things happen, so this is what we'll
8:31
see a lot with executive directors, is they're never given
8:33
any kind of training, so they come from program background.
8:37
They're amazing at feeding people, serving people, helping people.
8:41
Then they become an executive director, no skills or very few skills, which
8:45
is again, what happened to me, which is why I went back to get my MBA.
8:49
That lack of competence to be able to do the job is gonna create that burnout.
8:54
So any one or all three of these factors, and they
8:59
do all play together, that's gonna create burnout.
9:01
Chris: Nails my experience to a degree.
9:04
I mean, especially on the, the conflict side.
9:07
Like, I think when I'm constantly in a situation, especially
9:09
having been in a sales role, that's where I experienced the
9:11
most burnout, was a lot of the conflict I was getting was just
9:15
pressure, and like, having a boss that wasn't very direct with me.
9:20
And, I mean, I hate to say it, but even
9:22
pressuring me to do some unethical things.
9:24
And, um, having to push back against that, fight that,
9:27
feel like I was getting the bottom of the barrel.
9:29
Like I- we had one guy who would go out and s- close deals, sell
9:32
a client on a product or service, and then it would become my
9:35
customer after the fact, and they'd be mad at what they were sold.
9:39
So that was the rhythm I was living in, and just it was too much.
9:42
I had to be done with it.
9:44
So I, I totally get that.
9:45
Yeah.
9:46
Well, that's, that's really neat.
9:47
So you've, you've learned all that.
9:48
Yes.
9:48
You've, you've developed all this.
9:50
What have you done with it since?
9:52
Naomi: So I just finished everything in May, but
9:55
what I'm doing with that is a few different things.
9:57
So I do a lot of keynote speaking, um, and then also organizational assessments.
10:01
So the… Going back to the stereotype piece, I really
10:04
wanted to understand why some of the stereotypes exist.
10:08
And this is gonna sound terrible.
10:10
Like, don't pull this as, like, just a quick clip.
10:13
But, um, you think about why do we have these stereotypes
10:18
that police officers walk through domestic violence at home?
10:22
Wow.
10:22
Why do we believe that or hear that doctors
10:26
and pharmacists struggle with substance misuse?
10:29
That nonprofit directors embezzle money?
10:32
So that third one, obviously, was the f- was the
10:35
reason why I wanted to understand that stereotype.
10:38
As a nonprofit director, in a world right now where I think
10:42
nonprofit is being very, um, targeted and looked at very carefully,
10:47
it's important that we understand how these stereotypes exist.
10:50
What happens is when burnout sets in, you're
10:53
so much more apt to lean into risky behaviors.
10:58
Those risky behaviors are gonna be the ones
11:00
that, that have the least amount of consequence.
11:04
Therefore, you're going to be more open to falling into things That don't have
11:11
the checks and balances in place, and things that you are exposed to more.
11:17
In my time as a nonprofit director, I knew of two people
11:21
that did embezzle and actually died by suicide because
11:25
they had got themselves in that kind of situation.
11:27
That is far higher than the average for other industry.
11:32
When we think about that, we have to consider those checks
11:36
and balances and what's being put in place to make sure that
11:40
it's not gonna be possible or that it will be caught sooner.
11:45
Like, there needs to be that level of transparency and have all of these
11:48
things in place, because generally with nonprofits, who's gonna do that?
11:52
A, a volunteer board.
11:54
Who's training that volunteer board?
11:56
Usually nobody.
11:57
How do they even know to be putting financial controls in place?
12:01
So there's this huge missing piece of education, which is where I
12:05
absolutely love being when it comes to nonprofit anyway, is in that
12:09
business side and helping boards understand their responsibility
12:13
for burnout for their professionals, but then also for the checks
12:17
and balances and, and putting those pieces in place, um, with
12:21
those executive directors, with mid-level management, all of that.
12:24
We've got to start doing a better job training,
12:27
supporting, developing leaders within our organizations.
12:31
Chris: I've served on nonprofit boards.
12:33
I've helped with that stuff over the years, and yeah, you're right.
12:37
Like, nobody trains you on what to do.
12:38
A lot of times they come from either being a volunteer already in the
12:41
organization, or sometimes they just get pulled in from the outside because
12:45
they're, they want their name or they want their donations or what have you.
12:49
So yeah, that can lead to a lot of problems when you have even that disconnect
12:53
between the people doing the work and the people who are serving on the board.
12:59
Naomi: Yeah, so these organizational assessments are
13:01
so important just to reevaluate job descriptions.
13:05
Yeah, for the burnout piece, but then also so that boards really
13:08
understand what's going on because they are fiscally responsible.
13:11
They are, you know, it's more than just your name on a list.
13:15
You have a huge amount of responsibility within that organization.
13:19
And all of this translates as well to public sector, to government.
13:24
Um, and so taking all of these concepts and writing curriculum and training and
13:29
development programs that's applicable for pretty much anybody, because you've
13:34
got to think about the nuclear renaissance that we're going through right now.
13:38
What happens when you're burned out and you're on the front
13:41
lines of the health and safety of not just your company, right?
13:47
Mm-hmm.
13:47
Like, it's not just the modular reactor you're building.
13:51
It's that entire community, region, multi-state area, because what's gonna
13:57
happen if, if something is mistaken and read wrong, those burnout factors set
14:03
in, and if you don't have the right checks and balances, what's gonna happen?
14:07
Chris: Yeah.
14:07
It could lead to disaster, I'm sure.
14:09
Naomi: Absolutely.
14:10
Chris: What do you put in place to do, like, to help people with that?
14:14
Naomi: So a lot of it is training.
14:16
It's change management.
14:17
We've got- businesses and, and organizations that are growing so fast, and
14:22
we have to do a better job of, of bringing people into the process, helping
14:27
them feel a part of it so that that change management piece works well.
14:31
And then again, that values alignment.
14:33
If we don't have people in the right seat and they're
14:35
not being treated the way they need to be treated to be
14:38
a good functioning employee, then we've made a mistake.
14:42
And so outside of just making sure processes, policies, procedures, all
14:47
of those things are intact and in the right place, we have to make sure
14:51
that people are engaged and, and really connected with their organization.
14:56
So, um, that's all kind of my- the burnout part of my world right now.
15:01
Um, but yeah, it's, it's r- it's really interesting.
15:04
I'm finding it more and more fascinating the more I get into it.
15:09
Chris: I mean, it's definitely an interesting area of topic, and we don't have
15:11
enough time to dive into it now, but I'm just thinking through the different
15:15
things that I've had on my mind even in recent months about burnout, about, you
15:20
know, how we're connected as communities and people, and what kinds of things.
15:24
I mean, you mentioned disasters, but even a simple disaster like
15:27
the executive goes to ChatGPT to try and solve their problem or
15:31
something like that because they can't reach out to the board.
15:33
They don't have anybody to share that struggle with or that challenge with.
15:36
Like, there's, there's a lot there.
15:38
But that's- Absolutely.
15:40
Naomi: Absolutely
15:40
… Chris: that's really interesting stuff, and I, I'd, I
15:43
could nerd out about it with you for a while, I'm sure.
15:45
Um, but you've, you've done more than just learned all this stuff.
15:49
Like, I think you've written a book now, and
15:52
you've also started your own consulting firm.
15:54
So tell me first about the agency that you've built.
15:57
Naomi: Doing kind of what I was just talking about.
15:59
I do a lot of organizational assessments.
16:02
Uh, that conflict piece has really been somewhere,
16:05
which it's funny because people know that I'm not, I'm
16:09
not gonna sugarcoat things, like, I'm pretty upfront.
16:12
And so putting me in a room to help alleviate
16:16
conflict sometimes may sound funny, right?
16:21
So, like, you don't usually take somebody that's not afraid of conflict and
16:25
say, "These people are in conflict." You would think, "Oh, we need a peacemaker
16:29
here." But what it does is it helps when you are so conflict averse and you've
16:35
got a group that doesn't really know how to navigate The honesty, being very
16:42
clear, being very, you know, just let's lay it on the table and move forward.
16:46
Mm-hmm.
16:47
Um, it's really interesting.
16:48
It's really fun.
16:49
I've, I've really enjoyed getting into that
16:51
space where I didn't think that I would.
16:53
Hmm.
16:53
So it's fallen into my lap more and more.
16:56
I don't know that there's a t- a ton of
16:58
mediators or facilitators for that kind of thing.
17:01
Um, so I am Enneagram based, which is why I was
17:04
asking you before we started recording about that.
17:07
Uh, but because that helps us recognize behavioral patterns, it
17:12
helps us anticipate where we may get frustrated or dysregulated.
17:16
Mm-hmm.
17:18
So using the Enneagram for me has helped anticipate some
17:22
of the problems that are going to come up down the road.
17:25
So we can work through what's on the table right now.
17:27
Mm-hmm.
17:28
But do you wanna call me every time you get into something?
17:34
Right.
17:34
Do you want to have to have me come down and
17:36
mediate these meetings every couple weeks?
17:38
Probably not.
17:39
I mean, I'm happy to do it, but-
17:41
Chris: I, I would say that's also a very unhealthy
17:42
organization- Yes … if you're having to do that.
17:44
Naomi: Yes.
17:45
Yeah.
17:46
But when we begin to understand the hidden rules of our workplace- Hmm … when
17:50
we begin to understand some of the reasons why people may react one way
17:54
when you would expect them to react another, it just helps us to be able to
17:58
anticipate, and therefore we can adjust the way that we talk to each other.
18:04
Chris: I think as I've used, like, I mean, like I was telling you earlier,
18:07
like Myers-Briggs is more of where my brain is because that's what I
18:10
learned for so long, and then Enneagram came along, and I respect it.
18:15
I, I like the way you described it today
18:16
'cause I had never thought about that before.
18:18
I kinda considered it, pardon my cynicism, you may hate
18:21
me for saying this, but I kinda considered it the, um,
18:24
church, the, the church horoscope in a lot of ways.
18:28
Naomi: I get that-
18:29
Chris: You know
18:29
… Naomi: all the time-
18:30
Chris: Yeah
18:30
… Naomi: about
18:31
Chris: it.
18:31
It's church astrology- Yeah, yeah
18:32
is what I've seen it as.
18:33
Yes.
18:33
And that's what I don't like about it- Absolutely … is people that are
18:36
like… 'Cause I've seen it in my church and in other places where people
18:38
are like, "Oh, well, you know, I've used it for this," and they just,
18:42
they throw out the number, and I'm like, "I don't know what that means."
18:45
It's like, well, I'm a Sagittarius, what do you have to say to that?
18:47
Yeah.
18:48
Is that witchcraft or is this?
18:49
I know it's not, to be clear, but how do you, like, as you
18:53
think of stereotypes, how do you keep people from being in that
18:55
place of, "Oh, well, it's because I'm a seven," or, "Oh, they're
18:58
just a, they're just an eight and that's why they're that way"?
19:02
Yeah.
19:02
Like, how do you manage that since you know both sides of it?
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19:47
Naomi: Absolutely.
19:47
The first thing that I say when I do anything with the
19:51
Enneagram is it is not to be used as a sword or a shield.
19:55
Chris: Hmm.
19:56
Naomi: Never.
19:57
This is to understand yourself, and it is to understand the people around you.
20:02
Mm-hmm.
20:03
No one type is better or worse than another.
20:06
But if I recognize that as an eight,
20:10
personally, I'm gonna fight for authenticity.
20:14
I'm gonna needle people and push people until I
20:17
get an, what I believe to be an authentic reaction.
20:20
Chris: Mm-hmm
20:22
Naomi: When you put that against an Enneagram 3, this is a person who
20:26
wants to be seen the way they want to be seen, that always puts their best
20:32
foot forward, that wants to frame a conversation and frame a situation.
20:39
When you put those together, what do you think is gonna happen?
20:43
If I don't know that what I'm doing is, is trying to expose
20:48
your biggest fear, but you don't understand that if you
20:52
don't give me authenticity, it's not gonna end, right?
20:57
Because I want to know, but how do you really feel about this?
21:00
The person on the other side is saying, "I don't
21:03
actually want you to know how I feel about it.
21:06
I want you to know how I want you to think that I feel about it."
21:11
Chris: Mm-hmm.
21:11
Naomi: We're going to be in this huge fight.
21:13
So for example, if I'm working with a nonprofit, if you've got a 1, a
21:18
3, and an 8, 1s believe in very clear right, wrong, justice, morality.
21:26
We're doing the right thing, so we're gonna frame our
21:29
organization to do the right thing because it's the right thing.
21:32
The 3 is gonna say, "Well, if you're doing the right thing, but it looks
21:35
like the wrong thing, the community's not gonna believe in us anymore.
21:39
Legislators are gonna turn their back on us.
21:41
We won't have an organization anymore.
21:44
So we need to make sure that if we're doing the
21:46
right thing, that it also looks like the right thing.
21:49
We need to reframe this and make sure that we're marketing it correctly, that
21:53
we're putting it forward in the best light." The 8 is gonna say, "If you're
21:58
doing the right thing, you're framing it, but ultimately the clients that
22:02
we're serving are not getting service, there's no point in doing it at all."
22:09
Right.
22:09
The 8s burn the building down.
22:12
Like, ultimately it comes be- it comes down to the most vulnerable for an 8.
22:18
They wanna protect and push for authenticity and push for that, for that reality
22:25
so that they can protect those that they, that they feel need it the most.
22:30
And so when you think about those in, those personalities in place
22:34
in a leadership team for a nonprofit organization, it becomes
22:39
really clear then how we get to where we are with some of these
22:43
organizations with these big fights when the most important thing
22:48
is these clients that everybody loves and cares about, but we've
22:52
got these dynamics, same situation, three very different viewpoints.
22:56
Mm-hmm.
22:56
And so what it comes down to is really figuring out, okay, well,
23:00
now I recognize we've got to be doing the right thing, and it has to
23:06
be framed correctly, but we also have to make sure that the bottom
23:09
line stays the bottom line, and that our clients are getting served.
23:13
And so when we do that and we can refocus back,
23:16
everybody feels heard, and then everybody's on board.
23:20
Chris: I mean, that's heavy.
23:21
That's a lot for, for teams to carry and understand, and I'm sure it's easy
23:26
to get stuck in the work and not… And when then, then something comes up
23:30
and creates tension, that's where it becomes a big issue, I'm sure, for you.
23:34
So that's, that's really neat.
23:36
So that's your job, then, is helping people-
23:38
Naomi: I do spend a lot of time doing that.
23:40
Yeah, it's really fun.
23:41
I actually really love it.
23:42
So, and because when you think about it, it impacts strategic planning.
23:46
So if I go in to do strategic planning with an organization, I'm not
23:50
gonna push anybody to do Enneagram testing or anything like that.
23:53
But when I go in, it's always interesting to, to get to
23:57
know all the players and to s- to begin to anticipate
24:01
where we may have some of these tensions moving forward.
24:05
Organizational assessments, same thing.
24:07
There's usually some low-level conflict somewhere.
24:09
There's something going on.
24:11
You're not just gonna call me and ask me for
24:13
an organizational assessment out of nowhere.
24:15
And then walking through change, expansion, all of those things.
24:19
So how do we understand the community that we're going into better?
24:23
Mm-hmm.
24:23
How do we frame this in a way that's gonna work well for this community?
24:26
How do we make sure that we're serving the people that need to be served?
24:29
All of those pieces, and then the training development, making sure that
24:34
within your organization, everybody is trained for the job that they are in.
24:39
Do we have the appropriate job descriptions?
24:42
Do their, their actual day-to-day reflect their job description?
24:46
Do we all have accountability and those pieces put in place?
24:50
Clear communication and clear, um, expectations.
24:55
When all of those things are put in place, suddenly we see
24:59
our capacity increase, and we begin helping each other and
25:03
supporting each other in ways that That we didn't see before.
25:06
Chris: That's such a, an important thing.
25:09
I mean, I, I've been in, involved in an organization that pretty much fell
25:12
apart after… You mentioned conflict and being in the room with conflict.
25:16
Myself and a coworker have the same personality in that, like, when we get
25:20
heated, we can talk very angrily- Mm-hmm … and not actually be that mad.
25:25
Yeah.
25:25
I'm sure you know that personality type.
25:26
That's very much me.
25:28
When I get passionate about something, be it politics or work politics
25:32
or just life, like, it can sound like I'm angry, and I'm like,
25:35
"No, I'm really not. I'm just w- I'm just having a good time having
25:38
this conversation sometimes." And I'm at least passionate about it.
25:43
And, um, my friend and I were, and coworker
25:46
were talking, and, uh, the boss overheard us.
25:49
And we were saying some not nice things 'cause we were very burnt out,
25:52
frustrated, dealing with all that, and I wish we would've had this
25:56
understanding because after that, everything just kinda fell apart.
26:00
Mm-hmm.
26:00
Um, now there's more to the story than that, but, um, having seen
26:04
that happen in a negative way, like, I could see where you have
26:08
a lot of value coming into organizations and, you know, keeping
26:11
small, probably not small, small business is what we were in, but
26:14
organizations and nonprofits doing that, so it's very important.
26:18
Um, so how'd you come up with the name Maven?
26:20
Naomi: I have a good friend, and she and I were just talking
26:23
one day, and we were talking about what's a good word that
26:27
means kind of carrying expertise or these kinds of things.
26:31
And she, she kinda came up, up with it and said, "Oh, this is a
26:35
fun…" Like, we were just going through a, a thesaurus or whatever
26:39
looking for different words, and she said, "Oh, that's kind of fun."
26:43
And then I started looking at it more, and then I started looking
26:46
into different definitions, and I saw that it, one that, um, is,
26:51
'cause it's a Yiddish word and that it means bringing timely and
26:56
relevant advice to people when they need it from lived experience
27:00
and from, from knowledge, from, from life-earned knowledge.
27:04
And I just felt like, boy, if I can… I've
27:08
learned so many things in the trial by fire, right?
27:12
So many things I have learned the way that
27:14
I don't want anybody else to have to learn.
27:17
If I can bring that now- Mm-hmm … to somebody so they don't have
27:21
to go through what I had to live through- That's what I wanna do.
27:25
Yeah.
27:25
So that's where it came from.
27:26
Chris: That's exciting.
27:27
Naomi: Yeah.
27:27
Chris: So how did you get off the ground with Mavyn?
27:31
I mean, I know that's always a challenge starting a business.
27:33
Was this something you started as a side hustle, or was this
27:36
something where you left an organization and started it?
27:40
Naomi: I always knew it was something that I wanted to do.
27:42
The timing, uh, was very unexpected for me.
27:47
Um, like I said, I found myself kind of in a position where I was
27:51
very unhappy just in an organization that the alignment was not there.
27:56
It just, it just was not gonna get better.
27:58
I found myself, for the first time, and I talk about this in
28:02
my book a lot, but I found myself for the first time since I
28:05
was 12 years old without a job, without having somewhere to go.
28:10
Um, it felt a lot like I didn't have a purpose.
28:13
My trust in the world was very broken at
28:17
that point, and my trust in other people.
28:20
And so I got up and, and I had a meeting that was not, not
28:27
intentional about the business, but I had a meeting with a friend
28:31
that we were working on a project related to the other organization.
28:36
We ended up just started talking, and I was telling him kind of what was
28:39
going on and, and he hired me on the spot to do a short-term contract.
28:45
He said, "Listen, I g- I get it. You don't wanna come work
28:48
for us full time right now, but would you do this short-term
28:52
contract? Because honestly, this is what's going on."
28:54
It was a fractional event management type job.
28:58
Mm-hmm.
28:59
I said, "Yeah, I would love to." So by the time I got to the end of that
29:01
contract, I'd picked up a few others, and I was like, "Well, I mean, I was just
29:07
gonna kinda do this short term while I figured out what was next, but I'm really
29:10
enjoying it." Kept working again through, through the dissertation process.
29:16
Started doing some different things, a little bit more public speaking,
29:20
a little bit more over here with training and development, a little bit
29:23
over here with some organizational assessments and, and putting some
29:27
data collection pieces in place, and a few more strategic plans, and
29:32
then a little bit of development f- um, fractional development support.
29:37
And it, it just kind of kept rolling, and I was like, "Man,
29:40
I'm, I'm really enjoying this. I'm, I'm really having a good
29:43
time." So it's been more than a year and a half, so we'll
29:48
be, I'll be at two years in November, and I'm so happy.
29:52
Like, I just wake up every day so excited to work with
29:54
the clients that I have and, um, to think about what
29:58
I could be doing next, and it's, it's just really fun.
30:01
So started as a short-term endeavor that
30:03
has now turned into, into my whole life.
30:07
Chris: It's amazing how that works sometimes, isn't it?
30:09
Yeah.
30:09
So what was that moment where you realized it wasn't just a short-term endeavor?
30:13
I like to say, when was that moment of validation for your
30:15
business, like when you knew it was going somewhere else?
30:19
Naomi: Honestly, somebody said- To me, and I can't remember what
30:23
had happened, but they said, "Oh, so you're really doing this?
30:26
Like, this is your, this is your job?" And I was like, "I
30:29
mean, yeah, I've put a lot of time, money, effort, sweat, tears
30:33
into this." And I think it was as I was saying, "Well yeah, of
30:36
course this is what I'm doing," that I actually believed it.
30:39
Um, I, I mean, I was putting all of the, the blood, sweat, tears, time,
30:44
investment, all of that stuff into it because it… I don't do anything halfway.
30:49
Mm. And so if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it all the way.
30:52
And I, I just kinda thought, "Well, I may take something
30:54
else, but always come back to this. I wanna have my
30:57
business established and kind of have it as a side hustle."
31:01
But when that question was there, like, "Oh, so
31:04
this is your full-time deal?" Yeah, of course it is.
31:07
And I just knew as the words came out of my mouth, yeah, this is it.
31:11
Yeah.
31:11
I love it.
31:12
Chris: Yeah.
31:13
And it's been growing ever since, and sounds like you've
31:15
got some exciting prospects for your future too with it, so.
31:18
Naomi: Yeah, I love it.
31:19
Chris: That's exciting.
31:20
I love
31:20
Naomi: it.
31:21
It's very
31:21
Chris: fun.
31:21
And on top of that, you've written a book.
31:23
Naomi: Yes.
31:23
Chris: Tell me about the book.
31:24
'Cause it's not just one book you're writing either.
31:26
I think there's more to come, but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.
31:29
Naomi: My first book, again, like, my favorite joke is just
31:33
that it, it was a therapy exercise that I decided to publish.
31:37
It's very kind of walking through my journey.
31:41
I do hope that other people find it valuable,
31:43
maybe have a few, a few chuckles in there.
31:46
Um, and, and I think… So it pivots in the middle from my story to
31:51
what does this mean for you, um, how do you evaluate your values?
31:57
Um, it's not… So it's called Take to the Bed and Bring Cake.
32:02
And it's not just about this idea of rest, although it is very
32:06
heavily focused around the need to take rest and reflection.
32:10
It's not just a call to… I always say, if you wanna bring wine,
32:15
cake, Chinese food, vodka, whatever it is that you want, bring it,
32:20
take that break, take that rest, but use it as a time to evaluate.
32:25
And so I hope it is a call to evaluate those values and to find
32:31
our self-worth in something that is not achievement-focused.
32:34
Um, I start the book talking about the cupcake hustle.
32:37
When I first got into nonprofit management, I loved small business.
32:41
I love my town.
32:42
I love the city I grew up in, and so I'm very passionate about that.
32:46
Loved small businesses in my, in my town.
32:48
There was a small bakery Of course I love cake.
32:51
So I would go to the bakery, get the, whatever cupcakes were
32:56
left at the end of the day, and I would run them around town and
32:59
just say thank you to people that I'd interacted with that week.
33:02
Tellers, somebody's assistant.
33:05
Like, this wasn't, you know, CEOs.
33:07
This was just anybody that I'd had an interaction with that week.
33:11
And what started happening, which, you know, you can read networking books
33:15
and see how this was working, but this was figuring out just in the minute,
33:19
what I started seeing was I would go to make an ask for a donation, or I'd go
33:23
to try to set a meeting, and they'd go, "Oh yeah, we love the cupcake girl."
33:27
And so this cupcake hustle began to be this series of favors and overextension.
33:35
What can I do for others?
33:38
Because if I don't do it, I don't have worth.
33:42
Mm. And my ability to do my job is not based on whether or not
33:47
I'm good at it, it's based on how much I'm doing for others.
33:52
And I didn't even understand that that was what was happening until
33:56
years and years and years later when I started really reflecting
33:59
back on it, that my worth has always been measured in terms of The
34:05
hours I put in, the impact that I make, the outcomes that are there.
34:10
When you're in nonprofit work especially, of course that's how you measure it.
34:14
How many people did you help today?
34:16
If you're not helping people, how do you justify your salary?
34:20
So it was just kind of this realization as I was waking up and having
34:27
nothing to live for anymore, feeling useless and worthless and stupid and
34:35
all of these things, that I had to really come to the realization that
34:40
my worth is not divi- defined by the productivity or the achievement.
34:46
It is there because I am a human, and all humans have worth and value.
34:51
Chris: I think that's, that's an important lesson to learn for everybody.
34:54
I've been fortunate to have someone in my life that early on came to
34:59
me after… It was actually a boss, and we had had a hard conversation,
35:03
and he came to me and had this conversation about identity and
35:06
value, and he was like, "Your identity should never be your work.
35:09
Like, Chris in his role is what I'm talking about.
35:13
It's not you as a person." And learning to distinguish the two
35:17
has really helped me at times when, um, I can take things way more
35:21
personally than I probably should, but I think most people do that.
35:24
Um, I know people very close to me recently have had similar issues
35:28
of identity crisis almost because something was taken away from them.
35:32
But helping them realize, like, it's not about that.
35:36
Like, that may be what you want to do, but that does not determine your
35:39
worth or your value to your family and, and to the, those around you.
35:45
Um, you know, I think having kids helped with that, too.
35:47
Yeah.
35:49
Yeah.
35:49
Makes you realize there's something greater
35:51
out there than just career advancement.
35:53
But yeah, it's, it's hard because you wanna, you wanna succeed, you
35:56
wanna look good, you want everybody to be happy with you, and when you
36:00
derive satisfaction, I assume probably from gift giving, I would imagine
36:03
it's probably one of your love languages, then, then you probably are
36:08
in that place of like, "If I don't do this, then I'm failing others."
36:12
I can see how that would be tough.
36:14
Naomi: Yeah, and when you think about it, too, is if you're finding
36:17
your validation in your work and in your outputs, how do you delegate?
36:23
So we see this then tie back into not only personal burnout, but in how
36:29
you're treating other people and what that burnout begins to look like,
36:33
where that conflict does begin to set in, where there is that misalignment.
36:38
So the next book is, um, it will be called Get Over Yourself, and it's
36:44
going to be a call to view the world through other people's lenses.
36:48
Mm. And so kind of all of that piece that I,
36:50
that we've been talking about, but that conflict.
36:52
So the first one really leans into values.
36:55
The next one will be conflict, and then the third one
36:58
will be, uh, in that, um, competency space of leading.
37:03
And so how do we lead, taking into consideration these first two?
37:08
How do we build that competency and confidence
37:11
in ourselves so that we can be effective leaders?
37:14
Um, and this three-part book series is gonna align with my burnout
37:18
research, but it's, um, it's also gonna work really well together.
37:22
So one hard copy book eventually.
37:25
All digital until then.
37:26
Chris: Well, it takes time to find the right printer and, and all that stuff.
37:30
Um, side note, I was actually at a conference where they had
37:33
selfpublishing.com or something there just recently, so it's,
37:36
uh, definitely a way to go, but that's- that's really neat.
37:39
That's really something that people need to know about, and I think
37:43
you're, you're creating some really cool stuff in that regard.
37:46
Naomi: Thank
37:46
Chris: you.
37:47
So that's awesome.
37:47
Thank you.
37:47
That's awesome.
37:47
Naomi: Yeah.
37:48
Chris: Well, Naomi, as we wrap up, this is a branding podcast.
37:51
We talked a little about Mavens brand.
37:53
I always like to ask at the end of every episode, you
37:55
know, what is the brand that you admire the most right now?
37:59
Doesn't have to be, like, all time, but just is there a brand
38:02
that's real top of mind for you or that, that you really admire?
38:05
Naomi: I've gotta tell you, and this is so funny
38:08
because I've talked about this quite a bit recently.
38:12
I love the Spanx brand.
38:14
Chris: Okay.
38:15
Naomi: And I hate wearing Spanx.
38:19
Now, with that said, these jeans are Spanx.
38:22
I love the clothes.
38:24
I don't like the, like, suck in your whatever 'cause
38:29
for one I'm like, "You know what? Be real about it."
38:32
So there's that kind of side of it.
38:33
Mm-hmm.
38:33
But I am just so obsessed with this woman and her company and the way she
38:38
built her company and the, like, just… So Sara Blakely, and I follow her on,
38:43
on a lot of, um, socials and things, and she's just so focused on, on, "This
38:49
is m- what I want to create." And I don't care if you think it's stupid."
38:54
Like, everybody was kind of like, "Nobody's
38:56
gonna buy that." And she was like, "All right.
38:57
Well, I'm gonna do it anyway." And look at how… It's like Kleenex, you know?
39:03
Like, tissues aren't tissues, they're Kleenex.
39:05
Mm-hmm.
39:06
Shapewear isn't shapewear, it's Spanx.
39:08
That's
39:09
Chris: true.
39:09
Naomi: And she built that from very uncompromising, focused
39:17
intentionality, and now has a new brand called Sneex.
39:23
They're like high-heeled tennis shoes.
39:25
I'm obsessed.
39:26
What?
39:27
I am obsessed.
39:29
I just think she's so cool.
39:30
Chris: Yeah.
39:31
Naomi: She's just really cool, so yeah.
39:32
Chris: Yeah.
39:33
That's, uh, that's interesting.
39:34
I'll have to check that out.
39:36
I'm curious what that looks like when you say high-heeled tennis shoe.
39:38
Yeah,
39:38
Naomi: they're hideous.
39:40
They're hideous?
39:41
I want them.
39:41
I want them, though.
39:42
The more you look at them, the more you're
39:43
like, "Oh, now I kind of want to wear those.
39:46
I kind of
39:46
Chris: want to wear those." But I wonder if it kind of follows
39:48
the same, like, philosophy of Spanx, where it's about helping
39:51
you look your best, and, like, heels do s- you know, help lift-
39:56
Naomi: Uh-huh
39:56
Chris: the back end- Yeah … and all that.
39:58
Yeah.
39:58
So I wonder if it's kind of like, "Hey, but you can still
40:00
have the comfortable shoe, but look like…" I don't know.
40:04
Naomi: I-
40:04
Chris: I'm fascinated now
40:05
… Naomi: I'm not sure, but they are, I really want some.
40:07
I really want some.
40:09
Chris: Even though they're hideous.
40:10
Naomi: When the next book comes out, and you have me
40:12
back to talk about it, I'll be wearing a pair of Sneex.
40:15
Chris: I hope so.
40:16
That sounds awesome.
40:17
Naomi: I hope so, too.
40:18
I mean, they're, they're not cheap, so I'm saving my
40:20
pennies right now- … 'cause I want a pair so bad.
40:22
Wow.
40:22
And there's a, there's a pair that are my branded colors, so back to branding.
40:27
Chris: Oh.
40:27
Naomi: I love it when somebody says, "I was thinking about you
40:30
this week." Every time I know it's 'cause you saw something pink.
40:32
Mm. 'Cause I, I do a, you know, I really lean into, to my brand and pink, so.
40:37
Yeah.
40:37
Chris: I, I kind of noticed.
40:39
Yeah.
40:39
Thank you.
40:39
You brought that in today.
40:40
Naomi: Yeah.
40:40
I do what I can.
40:41
Chris: That was smart, all the way from
40:42
the, the shirt to the, the Stanley Cup, so.
40:45
Naomi: Gotta have my Stanley.
40:46
Chris: That's right.
40:47
That's awesome.
40:48
Um, well, Naomi, thank you so much for coming on.
40:52
Where can people find you, your book, and
40:54
connect with you if they wanna work with you?
40:56
Naomi: You can find me all over the internet.
40:59
Um,
41:01
naomithemaven.com is my website.
41:02
I am on, um, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, all of the things.
41:07
So, um, I'm easy to get ahold of.
41:09
I love just chatting, even if you don't think
41:13
that you need anything that I may offer.
41:15
I just love getting to know people, so always
41:17
open to a quick call or, or coffee or whatever.
41:21
But- Awesome … it's been so fun to be with you today.
41:23
Chris: Absolutely.
41:24
Thank you for coming on.
41:25
I've-
41:25
Naomi: Yeah … I've
41:26
Chris: enjoyed it.
41:26
Naomi: Thank you.
41:29
Chris: Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
41:31
Don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe on your player of choice.
41:35
You can also keep up with the podcast on our website at webuiltthisbrand.com.
41:40
If you liked this episode, please give the podcast a five star review, and make
41:44
sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.