Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #101 - Can Your Law Firm Catch the Marketing You're Paying For? with Tim McKey

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#101 - Can Your Law Firm Catch the Marketing You're Paying For? with Tim McKey · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you're opening a restaurant and you market and you do just a tremendous job
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: of getting people to come to your restaurant and you haven't trained your wait team
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: and your chefs, they may come, but they'll come one time.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what we really want.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we want the operations to be able to catch,
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better word,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: The marketing that is being done,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: if you're the one that's running everything and everything's dependent on you,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: you have a job.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what investors,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're private equity or someone else that wants to acquire you
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: from another lawyer,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: would be interested in because all the value then resides in those one
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: or two people.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: You should be creating a business that is sellable whether or not you want to sell.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: That just gives you one more option.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: You are listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have Tim McKay of Vista Consulting talking with us today.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I actually don't know how Tim ended up on the podcast.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: My assistant handles scheduling and she's really good at finding great guests
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: to bring on the show.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is really Tim and I's first time talking and I'm going
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: to let him finish out his introduction.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: She finds great people.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I'm not the exception to that rule.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess time will tell.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, again, my name is Tim Mackey.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I work with a little company called Vista Consulting.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are operational and strategic consultants to the planet.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We've been doing this work for about 15 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: We've been in over 300 firms assessing their operations kind of from soup to nuts,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: everything from intake through resolution.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And also I'll say maybe a little bit before that,
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  SPEAKER_01: we don't consider ourselves marketing experts,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the one marketing area that we really focus on and help our clients
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: with is what we call internal marketing.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do you reach back to your clients that have been through?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason we say that we look at that is it becomes an operational function
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: of how you reach back to those particular clients.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I won't belabor that too much,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: but we've been lucky enough,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: as I said,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: look at behind the curtain of over 300 firms and developed a set of best practices,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is constantly evolving with the introduction of AI into this mix and all of
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: the different vendors and
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: that are out there these days can We also have been lucky enough to be involved
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: with some, well,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say some of the latest things that are going on in the industry,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: the intro of private equity investment and how it has gotten here.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: We were a sell-side advisor to A very major transaction that occurred
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: and was highly publicized.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was the Dudley de Bossier uplift transaction.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we're very familiar with that transaction.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I won't call us experts.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we're an expert in anything.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're very good at observing.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're helping gathering information
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: and helping our clients serve their clients more efficiently and effectively.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that affects their bottom line.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we do.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a CPA, by the way.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a lawyer, which is a little bit of an interesting twist on a lot of things.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: We like data.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: We look at operational metrics and how to scale firms and what you should look at,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: what you should track and those type of things.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: all the way from intake,
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  SPEAKER_01: case management,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: even in such subjective areas as human resources and that type of thing.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to be quiet,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
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  SPEAKER_01: and hopefully that was enough of an intro for you to run with it from there.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: you said you wouldn't belabor the point of how important it is to reach back out
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  SPEAKER_00: to clients, but I will.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'll belabor that point.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I do that every day.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's such a valid and useful way to get referrals from people who already know you.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it is part operations, part marketing.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I handle the marketing department,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the marketing department at a law firm is interconnected
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: with every other department that's there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: specifically intake,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: but finance, operations, marketing has to coordinate with all of them.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't worked with 300 firms, not quite yet.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a little older, so
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's okay.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can take it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I see when I start working with so many firms is sometimes they start
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: with the marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: They'll reach out to me or a vendor to do the marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: but where they need the most help is operations.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sounds very self-serving, but I always use this analogy.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're opening a restaurant and you market and you do just a tremendous job
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: of getting people to come to your restaurant
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: and you haven't trained your weight team and your chefs,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: They may come, but they'll come one time.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what we really want.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: We want the operations to be able to catch,
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  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better word,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: the marketing that is being done and those potential clients and
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: to serve them very well.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: The white glove treatment, if you will, well, they will refer.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And again, they will refer if you keep your name in front of them.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there are certain things that we believe are in the marketing area that,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: as I said, are an operational function, you're reaching back.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I will also say without exception,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: and I'll say,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we ask specifically all 300 firms,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: but I'll say 99% of our clients' largest cases Come from a referral of some type.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not from,
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  SPEAKER_01: I call it chum in the water with TV,
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  SPEAKER_01: radio, billboards, whatever traditional marketing there is.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: That reaching back to the clients, I say that puts the hook right in front of the fish's mouth.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is simply a fact.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what we hear from our clients.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, well,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: kind of want to speak more to the marketing and the psychology,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: of kind of sidelining the client outreach and simple communications like newsletters
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: because attorneys are very analytical.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people are very analytical, but attorneys specifically.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really difficult to prove like a return on investment or
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: a print newsletter or a client dinner or just a simple email that goes out
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: to them once a week.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so we tend to minimize these things.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then these days,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really grappling with many attorneys coming to me and saying things like,
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: we need to put the brand out there.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, hold on, what are we talking about?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the simple things get overlooked.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: that's true of just about anything,
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  SPEAKER_00: marketing, building a business, health, whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: Outside of marketing, because we don't necessarily have to stay on that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just have a marketer, but I talk a lot about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Look, That's what you do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that kicks off everything.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you market and don't have a good operation,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: then, you know, you can be spinning your wheels.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like turning the water on in the bathtub and not put the plug in.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, it just runs out.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to catch it and have the best systems and processes to deliver
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: the services as efficiently and effectively as they need to be,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: that's part of good business.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: As long as there's been business and commerce,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: those are the businesses that have outperformed others.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to do that without dependency on one
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  SPEAKER_01: or two people makes businesses scalable, law firms scalable.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's our expertise is to help with those things.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say I introduced you to a law firm,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: your typical, what you would consider your typical
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: personal injury attorney owner.
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  SPEAKER_00: You had a blindfold on, they came up to you and they said, my law firm has problems.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are they?
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  SPEAKER_00: What would you,
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  SPEAKER_00: without looking at anything,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I know you're probably not inclined to do that,
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  SPEAKER_00: but what would you guess their main problems are?
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  SPEAKER_01: No, I think they want more cases and they want bigger cases.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what they're going to tell me.
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  SPEAKER_01: We want somebody to go get that.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great.
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  SPEAKER_01: That does tie back into marketing, etc.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what we do a lot of times is say,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: OK, how do you know that those cases are not already under your roof?
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  SPEAKER_01: The bigger cases.
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  SPEAKER_01: And how are you evaluating the cases as they come in?
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  SPEAKER_01: And are you doing things to get more cases?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's really,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: that's the two ways to grow a law firm is to get more cases and increase
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: the resolution value.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And those things depend on marketing,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: but it also depends on the systems and processes you have in intake.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because if Tiffany's out there making your phone ring off the hook,
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  SPEAKER_01: And you're not actually signing the clients up,
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  SPEAKER_01: the ones that meet your criteria, then there's a problem.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times we kind of direct our clients to,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: and we find out, are you keeping intake statistics?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many leads are you getting?
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  SPEAKER_01: How many do you want?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And how many of those are you converting?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And over our time,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: we've got some,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to call them industry standards,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: but I'll call them VISTA standards that we see that
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: the top performing firms are hitting.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And their conversion rate from the ones they want to the ones they sign should be
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: about 93%, 94%.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have to look at,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: okay, of those that you let in, how many of those get to the finish line?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: We look at the data of closed with a fee cases and closed with no fee cases.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: if you're hitting 95% of,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: hey, we want this case and we get it 95% of the time, yet only
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: 50% of those cases actually get to the finish line,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: then you probably need to reevaluate what your criteria is to accept a case.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the data is very important,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: and that's what we help our clients not only gather,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: but then interpret and how to use it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's our strength.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's also what drives value in law firms.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we do every day.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I really liked how you said the wanted close rate should be about 90%.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I get kind of pushy and I'm like, it should be 100%, but perfect is.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, an interesting thing,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: is sometimes when we go in and we ask a client,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know, do you know the number of leads you get?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know of those how many you want?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And do you know of the ones you want, how many you get?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we get all of them.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: We get every one we want.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then we ask a very tough question.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you track that?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, we don't.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then I propose to you that may not be 100% accurate.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So to start tracking those numbers,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: and a lot of times when we go into firms and they haven't tracked it and we work
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: with them for several months and we realize,
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: look, you're really only getting about 80% of the ones that you want.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that difference between 80 and 93, let's just say it's five cases a month.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And five cases a month at a very low $10,000 average case fee,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: that's all of a sudden $50,000 a month.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's $600,000 a year that you're not getting.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And no more dollars in ads.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're just fumbling the intake procedures.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the kind of things that we help our clients zero in on.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we think it's very important, whether it's us or someone else doing that.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the kind of things that should be monitored within law firms
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: because it helps their performance.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I should be nicer to my listeners because they are a lot of attorneys and some
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: of them my clients and they may not like hearing this,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: but there are some things that when you work in an industry,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: like we work with attorneys a lot,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: there are certain phrases you hear just often repeated and people don't realize it's
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: a cliche, but everyone says it.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of them is we sign every good case we get.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if anything,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm saying it now because it's just like that is a common belief,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: but probably inaccurate.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not necessarily a criticism.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times these firms don't necessarily know what they need to do to close 100%
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: or what to ask their teams to do or what systems to have, what tools to have.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why they need people like you.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of work in intake sometimes, so I definitely help with those things.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it's so important.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just the interactions with clients,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: the interactions with people who call,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: all of these lead to real people talking to real people,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: ideally real people leaving reviews.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the things that matter.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Texturing an image or a brand and putting it out there is fun and kind
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: of what we largely think when we think about marketing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the things I said before,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: taking good care of your clients,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: getting word of mouth buzz and getting reviews,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: that's what actually makes any business money.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're 100% right.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you one other thing that's interesting.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: The clients of most law firms,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: especially plaintiff firms,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: they have very little way to So in most cases,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: the clients judge law firms on things that are not in the law business.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Did you return my call?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: The table stake is you're a good lawyer.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do what you do.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: But just because you're the best doesn't mean
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to have that marketing part of it to get them there and then
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: to treat them very well to create a raving fan that will refer to you is part
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: of what good businesses do, whether you're a lawyer or you're a grocery store.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those things are in commerce and business.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those are very important.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we miss it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: We just think, hey, we do a great job.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So people are going to line up.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope so.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to help that along a little.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's It's fascinating to think about that they, well,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: and really probably when you think about it,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: what I do, it's hard to say, am I doing everything as a fractional CMO?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is really hard to ascertain because you're only sitting on one side of the aisle.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's this,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: the whole other person involved who's experiencing your service and what you do.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And their interpretation is important, even if it may seem illogical.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where a lot of people get hung up on.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, why does that matter?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, You know, they care about it.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: They care.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have to be in tune with that 100%.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of our clients actually survey their clients through the life of a case
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: to understand are they getting what they need and those type of things.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: That means a whole lot.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And those are systems and processes.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not things that we have to remember.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's checklists.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's setting up your case management system properly.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's training your team that these are the things that are important and why.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, that's our wheelhouse.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: It requires a lot of confidence in your systems and your team.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then like if we're talking about really small law firms and yourself,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: if you're the CEO and the head attorney,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: because you have to be able to say,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: refer to us,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: leave us your Yeah, it is,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: but you have to ask and you have to remember to ask for those reviews
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: and things like that.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the system.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't ask, the answer is always no.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's why There's a lot of things that are simply reminders and we forget to do them.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a whole school of thought about we don't need to learn new things.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be reminded of the things that matter.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what systems processes help us do.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And good training helps us do that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm not I'm not saying that everything has to be rigid.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have to have outlines of what success looks like.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then our team members have freedom within those boundaries,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: if you will,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: of how their personalities come out and how they respond and react to clients.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But also that's a training and a mindset.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: We think that's very important.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of the culture of law firms.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that, again, are things that we look at when we assess firms.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is their culture like?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: How do they handle intake?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: What does case management look like?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are their training systems?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So to be able to handle the cases efficiently and effectively, you get the best resolution.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's the deal.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: in the early days of starting my company,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I focused a lot on marketing and just get it done.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Emails.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do a Facebook ads.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hyperactive, trying to keep marketing going with a lot of my clients.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, what I learned somewhat the hard way is not everyone Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I wanted to ask you this from the beginning,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: but let's say you're a firm and you want to grow.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're a brand new personal injury firm.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: You were a general firm before and you're cited.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's personal injury now.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you do.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to go big.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: You have a big budget.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I use my podcast to mine people for information.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: That was, yeah, I saw what you did there.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, look, yes, we've helped with firm startup.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And once again,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: it's a little bit counterintuitive that working on how the cases will matriculate
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: through your firm is very important because going back to my You really don't want
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: to put the marketing cart before the operational horse, if you will.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to be able to catch it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so setting up your system,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: whether you have zero clients or you have a thousand clients,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: setting up the system Okay,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: then you ask the question, what would I do for marketing?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you the ultimate consulting answer.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: It depends.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: If that particular owner or owners were coming from somewhere else,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would try to find out do they have a list of And then,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know, start reaching back directly to them.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, then you talk about what budget do you have?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: In what city are you in?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you going to go to Las Vegas and start a TV campaign?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, be ready to spend several million dollars.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if I have a very clear answer, Tiffany.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: It would depend on where and how.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: But assuming it's a small firm in a mid-market,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would pay much more attention to referral sources and those type of things out of
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: the chute.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: They started to build their brand.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And building their brand is just recognition.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of different ways to get recognition.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I prefer to put the hook in front of the fish's mouth and reach back to people
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: that know me somehow or have worked with me or are very important referral sources.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because you affirm pretty much what my instincts were to do.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do, quote unquote, the boring stuff.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at the list.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get the list clean.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the brand.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the pieces that we need to get into place.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the hard And I can see their eyes kind of glaze over
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm just like, man, I'm trying.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually what you're supposed to do.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, look, I think you are doing the right thing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Your job is in the marketing area.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I call it that's the sexy area of just about any business.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: getting the nuts and bolts,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: things that need to,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: we call them critical success factors, things you absolutely have to get right.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And those are operational.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: they're not that sexy,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: but when you get it right and your machine is working,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: then you can turn on the sexiness of marketing to get that in and you catch,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: you're able to catch it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: if you use,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: if you're into sports and sports analogies, I mean,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: the quarterbacks and the wide receivers and the running backs get 90% of
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: the publicity.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: If the offensive linemen were not there, they would get zero.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we're much more of being the officer, the offensive linemen who are going to work everywhere.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Making sure that the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed while
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: the lawyers are doing their art in practicing law,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: devising case strategies and those kind of things, which is what they do.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're all about the business of running a law firm and that's different.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: From the practice of law itself.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we get these things confused.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm a great lawyer, so I've got to be able to run a great business.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Possibly that's true, but sometimes they're two very different skill sets.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: the people who recognize,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: where they And where they are strong and where they need help are the businesses
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: that really thrive.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very few people that can be the top litigator,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: work all in marketing and help design systems and processes.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's kind of like a platypus.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's odd how when the law firm owner gets more involved in marketing,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: it probably doesn't look like the way that they expect.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of taking video, showing up at events, talking to people, networking.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: What should lawyers be paying attention to right now?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And why?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that important?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty broad question.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, two or three years ago,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would have said every system and process within your operation should run
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: as smoothly as possible.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I stand by that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: However, what's going on in this plaintiff law firm space or That's something that's new.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: It is in vogue.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I see it.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually happening.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've helped firms do that.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're helping others take a look.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: It is not for everyone.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if you say,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: what should law firms in this country pay attention to is what's going on
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: in their industry.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: not that Joining private equity or looking for an investment from outside is
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: the right thing for everyone to do.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But there will be consolidation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: There will be larger firms around the country in the next four or five years because
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: of this consolidation and the influx of capital here.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And just to know what's going on.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'll use the Walmart example.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a corner hardware store and Walmart is opening three blocks away,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: you probably ought to know that.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you should decide, OK, what is my strategy?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that every law firm in the country Yeah,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: at this point, should be really thinking about that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is their strategy?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because the ground has shifted a little bit.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be that not only lawyers could have ownership in law firms.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's the alternative business structures that allow non-lawyers in certain states.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then the MSO,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: where you separate the operations from the law firm practice,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: is an avenue that private equity is very interested in, the operations.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So being aware that that's out there and there will be consolidation
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: and there may be more competition.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: What is your strategy to run from it or join it?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what's right for that particular firm,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: but paying attention and knowing the environment is extremely important.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of thoughts on private equity.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not necessarily opinions, mostly questions.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was at a mastermind meeting recently where many of the attorneys were,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, tentatively kind of thinking about maybe is private equity an option?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Am I big enough?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it just seems like a lot of work to get to the point where you could sell
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: to private equity.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's like daunting or intimidating for them.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess like I'm optimistic, though, because I grew up in the 90s.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: My mom was a hairdresser.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right around the time Walmart brought in hair salons into Walmart and she had
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: a hair salon right there in Walmart's parking lot right
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: when they opened their Supercuts.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I told this story before and she was terrified.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: All the hairdressers in town were terrified.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because this was a big competition for them.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But like weirdly, the Walmart hair salons went away.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like that isn't a thing in my hometown.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: My mom's hair salon did fine.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It even thrived because people were getting crappy haircuts from Walmart and coming
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: to her And so I'm optimistic.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just interesting the way this is changing the legal marketing space
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm getting old.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been around since like in this space.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, to not pay attention to it or stick your head in the sand in my experience.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I propose to you that it may not be that daunting because they should
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Your law firm should be doing the things now that's going to make you
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: the most profitable and deliver your services in the most efficient
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: and effective way, which, by the way, makes you attractive to private equity.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I see a dovetailing.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost the same thing.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: We say we've been in business 15 years and we've been getting ready for this point
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: for 15 years because to have a business that runs that's not dependent on one
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: or two people, then you actually have a business.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you're the one that's running everything and everything's dependent on you, you have a job.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not what investors,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're private equity or someone else that wants to acquire you
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: from another lawyer,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: would be interested in because all the value then resides in those one
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: or two people.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's if those one or two people walk out, the value walks with them.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what you should be doing is creating a business that practices law
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: and does it most efficiently.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: that puts you in place of most potential for a potential suitor,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's private equity, another lawyer or whatever, to look at your firm.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they go hand in glove, in my opinion.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I really like using relationship and dating metaphors and talking about business
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: because it all works eerily too well,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know, when you're talking about stuff like that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what makes you more attractive?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do your hair, get your operations running right, you know, pick up the phones every time.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, you usually want to date before you're married, so try it out.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Was there anything that we didn't end up talking about that you wanted to cover?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We could talk about dogs and what we're going to do this holiday weekend and that kind of thing.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: But no, you know,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to just touch on,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: you The importance of good marketing goes hand in glove with great operations.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And good marketing,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: good operations puts your operation or your business in a position
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: that may be attractive to sell.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that you should be creating a business that So,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what I'm trying to do here is tie all of this together.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing, operations, potential investment from outside or another lawyer.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: All these things are things that I think law firm owners should be very abreast of
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: and know something about.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Marketing is operations.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not as glamorous and it probably shouldn't be as glamorous as it is.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's in there.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's so important.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you want people to look you up, learn more about you?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, our website is VistaCT.com.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's V-I-S-T-A-C-T.com, Vista Consulting Team.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: We have a very robust website,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: lots of different services that we provide from intake coaching to strategic We have
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: a fractional CFO service that we provide.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: We certainly are,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: our bread and butter is improving operations for efficiency and effectiveness
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: and profitability.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So VistaCT.com, we're there and you can reach us.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably the best way.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much again.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks everyone for listening and tune in next time.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Tiffany.