Latest / Two Girls and a Cup of Wellness / Lymphatic Drainage: Swelling, Lymphedema & Recovery with Babz | Ep 32
Transcript
- Crissy and Marie: Hey all. Welcome back for another Two Girls in a Cup of Wellness Conversation. This is Chrissy. And this is Marie. And today we have Babs. Nice to meet you. So Babz: How? Crissy and Marie: this is gonna be so great. You are just such a little sunshine. Babz: Thanks. Crissy and Marie: well, as we are kind of thinking about the types of guests that we want to bring onto our show, we wanna really highlight a lot of different aspects of health and wellness and a lot of systems of our bodies and ways that we can become healthier and more in tune with our bodies. And the work that you do in just lymphatic world in general, but then also in the cancer world. And also now you in the motherhood. And yes. And mommyhood is really so powerful. So I I'm I don't even know if I want to start with a question as so much as to well, let's sort of start there. How is mommyhood? Babz: It's really good. It's very hard. It's very hard. So it's Crissy and Marie: Yeah. It's very hard. And there's no training for that, right? Babz: the best thing I could have ever imagined and the hardest thing that I've ever done. So Crissy and Marie: Yeah. It's most rewarding, right? Babz: absolutely, yeah, but I just never expected every part of it would be so hard. So Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Yeah. So do you think that it's starting to change your philosophy and your work now that you're a new mom? Babz: I think it's changed everything. I think Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: I'm a completely different person. And in some good, maybe some. I wouldn't even say bad. Just yeah, I think becoming a mom just changes your perspective. It changes your you know, what you wanna give your time and energy to. It changes how you present yourself in the world, it changes how you want your energy to be felt. It has changed, I know. I've just looked at myself a little bit closer, I think. And because I want him to grow up in a well nourished and, you know, I I feel responsible for his nervous system right now. And I've Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: never besides my little dog Benny, I feel like I've never been responsible for someone else's shaping of their beginning of their life and their nervous system. So Yeah. Crissy and Marie: Sure. That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I wish I had that kind of that that that mindset when my children were little. My children are now 21 and 24. And I could I I didn't even really know back then what my nervous system was really, you know, the importance of it or the lymphatic system or just our bodies in general. I was just like in go mode. I was, I was a young mom and I was just like, okay, do do do do do. I have a son and we're just gonna go along with the flow. But I think there's so much awareness and so much more consciousness around. I'm just thinking it was so different. I sa that started this when I had my first child, that's when I really started to go down that health and wellness toxicity rabbit hole. I knew about it. I researched it and I said, only the best for my child. That's amazing. I was not. I was like, all right, do to do do to do. We're just gonna go with life. It's funny how everyone. Babz: Like there's so many extremes of it too. Like and yeah, my my platform is balanced with valves and I feel like now more than ever I'm trying to find the balance 'cause you can go down a rabbit hole of of too much health and wellness and of baby's clothing Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Babz: need to be completely organic and understanding Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: Can he not use plastic? Can he like sho how the should I talk to him? Like am I like, you know, it I feel like you can get there's the two extremes are Both bad. Like Crissy and Marie: Right. Well you're getting you're getting overloaded with a lot more information than we did. Right. So and even with AI and now the constant influx of information from social media, that really wasn't as prevalent when I was growing like gro raising my children. So you're getting it like bombarded, you know. But I remember the first time my son had a munchkin. gosh, that it's Babz: Yeah. Crissy and Marie: all gone out the window. He was in love. He was all over his face. And I said, There, there it goes. I think you're doing pretty well. I think, Babz: Right. Yeah. Crissy and Marie: like to your point, Babs, the idea and this concept of balance, right? And understanding that there is no perfection in the world, right? So don't even try. Allow yourself to live a little bit. And if we kind of take that, maybe take that 80, 20, or 90, 10% rule into play, then we can have a munchkin every now and then. Yeah. Babz: Exactly. Exactly. I know. Crissy and Marie: huh. Babz: Yeah, I've just he just started eating solids and by solids I've been mashing everything possible 'cause I'm so nervous to give him like the baby lead weaning. That's a whole nother category, but to the munchkin point I I feel the same way. I'm like, All right, can I can I control it's all comes out to control. I'm like, can I control his gut health, his gut biome for a little bit longer until he, you know, goes to that birthday party and has ten cupcakes like Crissy and Marie: Yeah. A cake. And starts making the decisions for themselves, right? Babz: Yeah. Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Yeah. my goodness. So let's I I really want to kind of dive into the lymphatic system too, because I feel like this is a system of our bodies, very similar to the fascial system that is a little a mysterious, right? I think More and more people are hearing about it and they're like, the big six, and or do these 10 moves every single day and you'll move your lymphatic system. When I know that there's a specific you know, order and pressure and way about really enhancing our lymphatic system. So why don't we kind of just start there? And I'm sure we're gonna kind of talk about our bodies and our children's bodies as we go weave, weave them in, but Let's kind of talk about and dive into the lymphatic system a little bit. So can you give us a little like kind of in more depth description about it and some of the things Babz: Yeah. Crissy and Marie: you do and teach? Babz: Yeah, of course. I started to become obsessed with the lymphatic system after my mom developed lymphedema, which I'm sure both of you know what lymphedema is, but for listening, it's Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Babz: a condition that can happen after cancer and basically your lymphatic system gets disrupted by either lymph node removal, radiation, chemotherapy, surgery, and then the lymph fluid just gets stagnant and doesn't filter as appropriately. So that's when I it I started kind of on this path as as it became really apparent in my life, in my mom's life. And so before then, I mean I I'm an occupational therapist. So I went to to school, I went got my master's degree and and we learned about it, but not as in depth as I wanted to. So then I started diving deeper and and I got certified as a lymphedema therapist and I became just in awe of the system. And I think in the last, you know, three to five years, thanks to social media and thanks to you know, resources being more prevalent out there, everyone's kind of the lymphatic is a buzzword now, which Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: is really good, I think, because now it gets people curious. And, you know, curiosity is what sparks research, is what sparks, you know, self-healing and self-learning. So But the lymphatic system is just one of the systems in the body that I would say it's kind of the unsung hero of the body and really taps in and has you know, tentacles in every single aspect of the body, your nervous system, your digestive system, your cardiovascular system, your you know, every system ties into the lymphatic system. So it's basically a system that cleanses, clears, moves the fluid in your body. And when I meet a patient for the first time, I always tell them, like, if we didn't have a lymphatic system, we would look like big balloon animals. And so Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: the fluid would just fill and fill and fill and fill and it wouldn't have a way to decongest, to move. So it's a system, there's so many different analogies out there, Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: but you know, it's just these beautiful rivers that really help to encourage fluid movement to help to balance the fluid in the body, to help our digestion, to help our immunity and Yeah, just to to help to to identify anything that's gonna be harming us, and target that. It's yeah, it's how much time do we have? I feel like it's best. Crissy and Marie: We have as much time as we want, but I I I too became kind of a little obsessed and a little bit of a lymph nerd after my own breast cancer diagnosis. So I was diagnosed in 2020 and having taught yoga for many, many years, like yeah, I, you know, I knew about it, but I just again, I didn't put too much like thought into it or or really just a lot of energy into it. I just thought, okay, it's it's there. But then after my diagnosis, I started really thinking about how can I support myself. And then that always just being a natural teacher that lends it into, okay, well, now what can I really learn to help my students as well and help my family, my loved ones? And so I did a 55 hour lymphatic and yoga training. And from that moment, I was like, yes, this is. phenomenal and I love it. and it's just, it's so intriguing, right? Because they're still still like learning about the system, right? And as we all should be consistently and constantly learning. So I love, you know, you kind of breaking that down and and giving our audience a little bit more of an insight and a like a visual, right? I love the river visual because it's what it is and we want it to take and cleanse and move through and move out what needs to be detoxed and call into the other parts of our body that needs to call to action, right? And so, you know, even I love watching some of your videos when you were pregnant and doing lymphatic massage and certain techniques. And I'm sure you do some of them with your son now too. And so what are some of the like techniques that you like to do and or or is there another direction that you kinda wanna go first before talking about the techniques. Babz: Yeah, I I I can go either way. But yeah, thanks for s sharing a little bit about your story too. In twenty twenty to be diagnosed with cancer in twenty twenty, sorry. Like that Yeah, that Crissy and Marie: Yeah. It was a lot of fun. Not Babz: a lot of people were diagnosed with all kinds of things in that year. And I think that is just yeah, so the strength that you have to get through the pandemic and a cancer diagnosis, that's a lot. but Crissy and Marie: Thank you. Babz: again it kind of led you to, you know, same thing with me, my mom. is just yeah, learning more about our health and and that hopefully is a silver lining, but a crappy way to get there. Crissy and Marie: Yeah, for sure. Exactly. I wouldn't, you know, offer it to anybody, but I'll take one for the team, right? 'Cause I I positive mindset can kind of get you through a lot of things. And I think that's something that helped me. but yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't wish it on anybody. So Babz: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And yeah, so I started so in twenty twenty I started a YouTube channel called Balance with Babs because all the outpatient clinics that I was working in Boston shut down because there was no more elective surgeries and so all of my hundreds of patients with lymphedema and with cancer couldn't get outpatient services. So I started this YouTube channel as basically like a here, just do this video so it's something you can do. and then I developed Limp Flow Yoga, a specific type of yoga to improve that flow. And so I just posted and I would just do like free live classes every week and it started off by just helping my mom, my patients, but then it grew to, you know, different countries and and all around the world I have of people joining the classes. But I think what's the tools you were mentioning, I I created a kind of four step protocol in each class and the first step is self manual lymph drainage. So I teach you mentioned Dr. Perry six big six. I created like basically a big ten. So we do a little bit extra. So we do like the cubital fossa, the inner elbow lymph nodes and the popliteal fossa behind the knee. So we stimulate those lymph nodes. So it's like a ten step routine that you can find on my YouTube channel and on my Instagram. But That tool I encourage people to do prior to yoga because essentially we're encouraging the awakening, the stimulating of the lymph nodes so that when we do our yoga poses, that those areas, the clusters of lymph nodes around the joints, are better prepared to take on more fluid. So if there's stuck Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: fluid surrounding the joints in the lymph nodes, and then we just go, you know, for a little run or do Zumba or go swimming, sometimes that's where that fluid can kind of get a little bit more trapped. So opening up and sit similar to the stretching before you do a exercise routine or something. but so we start with that, the 10-step routine. And a lot of my patients, a lot of my community members really like it because it's simple. It takes like two minutes and it also gets you to be really in touch with all the areas of your body and send love and healing to those areas. And then so we start with that, then we do some breathing exercises to encourage diaphragmatic breathing to encourage more drainage, some central drainage, and then the yoga sequences. And then we always end with some mindfulness. So some type of meditation or body awareness or scans. And so and those kind of are the four major ways after intensive treatment that you can continually improve your lymphatic health. So manual lymph drainage, breath work, movement, and then self-care. So relaxation and you know, stimulating more of that rest and digest and and calmness because that's when the the lymphatic system actually has a chance to move because if we're tight and and stress then everything constricts. So yeah, if whenever people ask me kind of what can I do now, I say those four things and that's what lympho yoga is based on the principles of those four. Crissy and Marie: Yeah. I just want to point out for those that don't understand that the lymphatic system, obviously it's fluid. We've, you know, I mean talked about that, but it has no pump. So when you think about our arterial system, you know, our blood system, the heart pumps the blood. And then when the fluid is down in your legs and the veins, it has valves to help it move back up. So there's movement is how you move it. Sure, sure. You know? So And this is really great information if you're sitting a lot, right? If you're at work and you're just sitting To s get up like a couple of times a day and maybe go through those points if you can't get out and go walk or anything right away. Just to stand up even in your office and do some of this would be very, very helpful. and your body would love you for it. So I have a question. What do you think about rebounding? hybrid plate. Yeah. Babz: Yeah. I was just gonna say a re rebounding, vibration plates, you know, dry brushing, all these things are so amazing and awesome tools. But and I love them all, I have use them all, I recommend them all, but also I I kinda bring people back to to using their hands. Like I think the hands Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Right. Babz: are the the are free first and they're always with you and the best tools. But Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: My mom who has lymphedema loves to rebound and there's a study out there that ten minutes twice a day really helps to encourage lymph drainage and blood flow and and also is less impact than running or walking or cycling or something. But Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. But do you think like you were saying, stimulating it's important the different areas? Would you stimulate those areas first and then jump on the rebounder? Yeah. Okay. Babz: Yeah, I absolutely Yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah, 'cause I again it's kind of just like opening up the the toll booths, you know, letting so that the Crissy and Marie: My Babz: traffic can move, you know. So yeah, before anything, even when you first wake up in the morning doing that ten step routine, it's Crissy and Marie: Mm. Babz: really helpful just to to get everything flowing. But yeah, it Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: it's a good point of if you're sitting for a while, that so is the fluid. So you Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: know, if if you can get up c like just move your range of motion, just move your joints, get that that skeletal muscle contraction, it pumps against the vessels and moves that fluid out. So yeah. Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I did that this morning. I I I try to do the big six, but I'm gonna look at your, you know, big ten because I think why not add a little bit more if I'm already used to doing the one. But if you're if you're not used to doing it, just start somewhere, right? But the every morning I really try to get up and I go right by the term I and then I go through the points and I move my body a little bit. But this morning in particular, I woke up super early. I did all of that. I went into my garage. I have a gym in my garage, worked out, and then I got on my vibration plate. And it felt so good. It always is really important to kind of clear the points first or just massage, stimulate, wake up those points first before doing any type of exercise or any other type of lymphatic work. Cause you don't want to, you don't want to overwhelm and overstimulate the areas. You kind of want to clear them a little bit so that when you do move it has somewhere to go. It's not gonna be kind of like a traffic jam and and you're stopped up. You're not gonna clear the traffic jam at the end of the jam. You're gonna start it where the jam is. So by doing those points first, it's like you're just encouraging more flow. Yeah, so, so good. So what do you suggest for women who let's let's talk about breast cancer for a second. for the women who've had lymph nodes removed, how do you I I think I know, but I always love a good reminder and everybody I think who is listening, who's either had family with breast cancer or they have are are experience in or have, how would you teach them to help their lymphatic system? Babz: Yeah, so with lymph nodes removed, I I always say, you know, if you imagine a line of cars from your your middle finger all the way to your armpit, all those cars wanna go home and they wanna end up in their garage at the armpit. Now if you take away, you know, five, ten, fifteen, thirty of those garages, those cars wanna go home and then they can't find their home. So they park next door. They park you know, down the street and then they get built up, built up, built up. So it's really helpful at any stage of recovery. You know, if you just had lymph nodes removed or you're two, three, four, ten years out, you can do this, but stimulate the area, massage that armpit because even though those lymph nodes are removed, those roads that are carrying the car still exist. So those lymph vessels still exist and they can drain to your clavicular lymph nodes, they can drain to your sternal lymph nodes, they can even create pathways to come to the other side. So Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: I I get the question all the time, like, should I still massage that area and still work that area even though there's no lymph nodes? I'm like, absolutely, because we're Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: just gonna help to move. And and the beautiful thing about the lymphatic system is those vessels can regenerate and create new branches and pathways. Whereas the lymph nodes themselves, they never grow back, but the the vessels and the the branches that move the fluid do. So the more that Crissy and Marie: No. I don't think I knew that. Babz: you help that area to get out and and decongest, the more that you're freeing up those roads for, you know, a new road to to come in and and those cars to, you know, move to the other way. So I would say just massage both armpits, you know, really work the area. Send love, send tenderness and care to that area. And, you know, a lot of scar tissue might be there if there was any surgery, reconstruction. So I always do a lot of breast or chest massage 'cause that's gonna ever gonna move that skin, a lot of shoulder range of motion, 'cause the more the shoulder moves, the more the breast tissue is moving. so yeah, it's a massage movement, love and care, you know, same going back to those four principles. But that I think they'll help Crissy and Marie: I love that. Hmm. Yeah. So do you rec Babz: at any time. Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Do you so obviously gravity, right? And then do you recommend the wraps or do you try to avoid those? Babz: so like compression garments, you mean? Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: Yeah, so depending on what the person went through, so depending on if they had a sentinel lymph node biopsy or a full Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: axillary lymph node biopsy, if they went through radiation, certain types of chemo, it puts you in a bracket or percentage of what risk you are for developing lymphedema. right Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: after any surgery, you probably are gonna feel swelling. A lot of my patients will say they feel like a balloon underneath their armpit. Some swelling is normal. That's your body just healing. But if that swelling kind of persists, lingers, increases, or is just beyond, you know, a the the timeline that your doctor says, then yeah, I think compression is key. I think compression is Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: preventative. I think it's proactive. Crissy and Marie: Yeah, 'cause it pressurizes it. So it kind of encourages that flow a little bit more, correct? Yeah. Babz: Exactly. Yeah. And there's so many types of compression too. There's compression bandaging that we do in across yeah, the wraps. Crissy and Marie: Right, the wraps. Mm-hmm. Babz: C D T complete decongestive therapy. So that's when someone's swelling is becomes a little bit more protein rich. So after a while that fluid will kinda stay and then it becomes thicker and thicker and then to a point where if you push on it it kind of stays in. That's called pinning edema. Yeah. Crissy and Marie: That like pitting edema. Yeah. Babz: So when it's pitting, that means there's more protein in that fluid. So you go from like a clear, you know, bucket of water to a bucket of water with like a ton of sand. So like it's like then Crissy and Marie: Mm. Babz: it becomes more dense and dense and dense and dense and dense. so when it becomes pitting, gravity's no longer gonna help because you need some extra pressure. Crissy and Marie: Rush one. Babz: Yeah, you need something. So the bandaging, the multilayer bandaging with different foams, Crissy and Marie: Mm. Babz: different pressure gradients and creates you know, gradient pressure to move and drain it out. And then once it's out, then you know, different sleeves, gloves, bras, tank tops, you know, and then for the legs, there's the same thing. There's leggings, there's knee highs, there's thigh highs. But yeah, I'm a big fan of compression because I've seen it work time after time after time. And it really is kind of above all, above massage really above movement because I I've had many patients in wheelchairs or who are bedbound who and compression works. So I Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: think you know, if you're trying the movement, if you're trying the lymph drainage, if you're trying all the things, you know, you're eating well, you're drinking, but you're still developing a lot of swelling, then you need compression. And I would say anyone Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: who's dealing with any type of swelling that to talk to a lymphedema therapist to get you the right compression. Cause Compression can be a little tricky sometimes because you don't want it to cut into certain areas. And a lot of people try on one garment and they're like, I hated that. That was hot, that was like tight, it made me feel uncomfortable. but it really should feel good. And I know when I was pre Crissy and Marie: Right. Babz: my gosh, I had little did I know that I was had reclampia, Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: but I had so much swelling that and I'm a lymphedema therapist and like a lymphatic therapist, so Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: I was like doing all the things. Then I finally put compression on. Well, not finally, I did it right away, but When I put it on I was like, my gosh, like that's a relief. I and I didn't understand that until I like Crissy and Marie: was helpful. Yeah. Right. Babz: you know, so yeah, compression is key. It's so hot. Crissy and Marie: But it definitely is important to see a specialist. I've I've done wound care for years and a lot of people that are older have lost sensation in their legs. And I've actually gone in following somebody else and it was cutting into the leg. And then you have a wound situation. So it's it's so special specialized and and you're they're so hard to find. There's definitely a need. Babz: Yeah. Yeah. The the National Lymphedema Network is a great network. and there's also there's different like categories of lymphatic specialists. So there's like CLOS training, there's Norton, there's like lymphatic studies, I think is another one. So they have like references or or you can like if you go on the National Lymphedema Network you can search for a therapist by your zip code. So that's really helpful. And also, I Yeah, I just recommend any of my followers or anybody just to just message me 'cause a lot of people message me, like, Do you know what therapist here? Do you know what therapist is there? And I the lymphatic world is such a tight knit community that I'm like, Yeah, I know Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: or th I know somebody who knows them. So there's not too many, but they are there and they are Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: you know, there for you. Crissy and Marie: What do you think about swimming? Isn't swimming a another really well, it's a great exercise for a lot of different things, but just being in the water, doesn't that help to kind of pressurize and and bring a little bit of pressure to your body too? Or compression? Babz: Yeah, definitely. And the deeper you go, the more millimeters of mercury of pressure it is too. So and also so that itself, the water is acting like pressure and then as you move in the water, that's acting as resistance. So it's like the pressure and then you move, then it pumps. So yes, swimming is like the number one exercise for for lymphedema, besides lympho yoga. But I'm just kidding. But I yeah, swimming Crissy and Marie: Hmm. Right. Babz: like It's the best. My mom in the summertime, her lymphedema is the best it ever is because she's off often in the water and moving. But yeah, the the the the pressure and then the resistance is access like compression. Crissy and Marie: Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. I'm so grateful I didn't have lymphedema. I had three lymph nodes removed. but I didn't have thankfully a lymphedema. But so when you said when during the summers, so once you have lymphedema, like it's just that's kind of something that you have to deal with for the rest of your life, or is it something like for a short time and then it goes away, or just per person, I guess it could be a different, you know, per basis type of thing? Babz: There's there's three stages, well really four stages, but it's zero, one, two, three of lymphedema. And stage zero and one is called the reversible stage. So say you developed lymphedema right now, you would call me right away, I would say do this, this, this, this, this, and you would manage it and you would, you know, address it and you would move that fluid, and most likely you would not develop into the later stages. If someone has lymphedema for a long, long time, becomes thicker, that pitting edema, they're getting into that stage two. Then if they start to notice skin changes, wounds, they start to notice these you know, breaking or this like thicker, fibrotic, denser tissue and fluid, that's stage three. Those stages they say is yeah, spontaneously reversible or probably won't be reversed. So that's why I I think that's, you know, one of the key things in in my mind all the time is why I do so much education and, you know, free resources is to like get these people when they're in this early stage. Because if they can wear prophylactic garments when they fly or or if they notice the swelling, they can they have it in their underwear door, they pull out and put it on. Like that if you get those people or you intervene at that time, then it can be reversible. But later Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: on it it is a chronic, progressive lifelong condition. But chronic and progressive, it it doesn't need to progress if managed. So somebody with stage two or three, they can go back. They can get better and better and better. I I know I've had hundreds of patients come to me with stage three, really severe through you know, chronic venous insufficiency, through vascular issues that lead to lymphedema, and I bandage them, we massage, Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: exercise. garments, they get back to, you know, that stage two. So it you can, you you can always get better, but oftentimes like Crissy and Marie: Fluctuates. Babz: once you hit those later stages, your lymphatic system is is really disrupted. However, you know, more recently there's new surgeries. There's lymphovenous anastomoses where they can actually rewire the the lymphatics and help to bring to Crissy and Marie: Wow. Mm, that's cool. Babz: different veins and they can do lymph node transfers and So I think it's I think the like in the next five, ten years, lymphedema is trending in a good direction. I hope in ten years, fifteen years, there's no such thing as lymphedema. Like I as a lymphedema therapist, I w want it to be squashed. Like I'll find I'll find another hobby. Like I'll find another passion. Like but Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's well so debilitating. When I mean I used to work in skilled nursing facilities and I had a patient that hyperkeratosis of the tissue. So Chrissy, it's almost like Thank you. Because I was like, What is that? Babz: Okay. Crissy and Marie: It's so you so when Babs is talking about the protein, the protein's shifting into the third space and getting into the tissue and works its way towards the like different layers of the skin. Okay. And this is from really long term lymphedema. And it's actually Like the the skin looks like trees almost, like a tree trunk. And you have to actually break, you have to soften the skin up, work, and this is my wound care, like mind coming in, work at the tissue, soften it up, break it away, and it's like bark of a tree. And then once you get to that point, then you can start working the lymphedema reps. And this is like months of working with these these patients. But yes, obviously you wanna recognize what's going on so that you can intervene at the right moment to not have something like that. Well, that's Kind of the proactive mindset that healthcare needs to move towards. That's right. And the whole, you know, purpose of this podcast, of just trying to be more proactive than reactive. And and knowledge is power. And I don't think you'll ever not have a job because if you just change it from like now, I'm educating and I'm being more proactive, I'm helping more people see how they should treat their bodies prior to. Then you will never be out of a job again because you know it's you're going to be helping so many people. You already do help so many people. I think it's just, I think if we can get more and more people on that mindset. Yeah. I mean, obviously. One podcast interview at a time, friends. One conversation at a time. So let's come back to your sweet baby boy. What do you do with him to help his lymphatic system for all of our new mamas out there? Babz: Yeah. so when he was born, he was born a month early and so we stayed in the hospital for s quite some time and I just immediately would do I have like a bunch of videos of me just doing like gentle touches, gentle lymph drainage on his face. And just as nice it is for us to, you know, get a facial or have, you know, someone we love just like touch your face, like that's so soothing. So just gently I would kind of like massage his face and actually he woke up a couple of days ago and from a nap and his eyes were swollen. I was like, hmm so I just did like a little he probably was just like sleeping too much on his, you know, down on his face. But I just do a little drainage. I also practice Reiki and when we were in the hospital, this was really cool. I would hold him and I would do Reiki on him and he was attached to all these like millions of wires that were detecting his heart rate and you know and I in his blood pressure and so I in his oxygen and I would watch at like the monitor as I was doing Reiki on him and everything would start to slow down and calm down. And I was like it was really cool. It was Crissy and Marie: I just got chills. Babz: really special 'cause I was like, you know, I obviously believe in Reiki. I'm a Reiki master. I've seen it work on so many people. I do it myself, I do my plants, my food, my loved ones, my patients, you know, but actually watching it in real time of like Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: how powerful this energy that we all hold. You don't have to be a Reiki master to do Reiki. You you just have to intend do good energy on something or something. But Crissy and Marie: Mm. Babz: watching that, it was yeah, really special. It was really cool. Crissy and Marie: Wow. That's very cool. I just got the chills because that was Babz: Yes. Crissy and Marie: like what I mean because we are energy and we have to remember that and and the energy that we want coming back to us, we have to first like emit it out into the world, right? It's it's it's just yeah, it's so powerful. And I think that the energy, even the lymphatic work that we do, it's all very soothing. So that also in turn is helping our nervous system and helping how we show up in the world, how we act or react to things, how we speak to ourselves or to others, right? And I think that's really an important correlation that people need to make that lymphatic stuff, lymphatic work isn't just, moving the liquid out and detoxing. It's really about self-care and how important self-care is. It creates more of a loving relationship, connection, and energy with ourselves. And we need that first before we give that out to anybody else. Right. I think I was on this kind of grief circle the other night, which was really, really, really cool. And the host had had us journal of like, what does grief want you to know? And I was like, that Babz: Mm-hmm. Crissy and Marie: just, I mean, you know, just brought so much But then she also asked us, like but to journal, what does self-care mean to you? And it was a like what came through me was really quite interesting was like self-care is is worthiness, is trust, is honesty, is love. It's self love. It's it's not a I have to do self care. It's like I get to. It's more just a part of us, it should be more so, right? Rather than something that you think that you have to do. my God, I have to do the spatial have. No, self-care is like self-love. And I definitely think that some of the lymphatic stuff that we do and the nervous system stuff that we do really should be in that category because it is self-care. It's it's caring for our body bodies in the most loving of ways. And everybody needs to do that. I shouldn't say need. Everybody gets to do that if they choose. And I don't want to say should either, but I want to. Babz: Yeah. Crissy and Marie: You know. So let's talk about, I guess, a few more minutes, you know, but I touched on how the lymphatic system and the nervous system kind of, you know, do you have anything to add to that? Babz: Yeah, yeah, I think you you said that very nicely. I appreciate that and that's sounds like a really nice circle. but yeah, I I always say in order to heal we must feel. And, you know, in the classes it's we just we always just sit with ourselves and, you know, we're moving that fluid and I heard someone say one time, I'm not sure who, but they said that emotions are energy in motion. And I thought that was so cool 'cause it's a Crissy and Marie: I say that too. Yeah. Mm. Babz: if in and if you swap energy with water y in lymph, like we're so emotions are lymph in in motion, you know? And and if we can move this lymph throughout the body, then we're breaking up those, you know, energy blockages. We're we're moving things that maybe have been stuck for a while or maybe we haven't been aware of and yeah, I I really think that one one time one of my patients I was working with her for a while and she had breast cancer. She ended up with breast lymphedema and I was just teaching her how to, you know, massage her breast and and then a lot of my patients will come to me and never have even touched that area because fear and guilt and shame and you know, e every emotion you could possibly think about that's associated with a diagnosis like that, I'm sure you know. And Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Babz: and so I taught her all these things and And she was like, you know, this whole cancer experience I've been trying to escape my body and like and not connect with my body. And now that I'm doing all these things, I feel like I'm like coming home and like actually really trying to care for myself. And I think to your point what you said, like self-care isn't the the tool we have in our toolbox or the in the closet or or what we buy on Amazon. It's like what we can do for ourselves inside of ourselves and like and Crissy and Marie: Mm-hmm. Babz: yeah, I was just like, Well, that's that's interesting 'cause yes, self care is just self love and self holding and and just being there for yourself like you would for my for the baby or for for a Crissy and Marie: Right. Babz: friend. It's just Crissy and Marie: Yeah. As moms, you know, that's what we do for our children and for our loved ones. And why aren't why isn't it a bigger thing than it is? Why do people think that it's just being selfish? And it's so not. Like I think it's really important for moms, especially, whether you're a a mom of a child, an adopted child, a stepchild, a dog, a cat, a whatever, it doesn't matter. But like just making making it less taboo of us showing up for ourselves and giving us the time and the space that we need to love on our bodies, right? Instead of the disconnection and then especially throw a diagnosis into that that could be extra weighted and extra heavy, right? But that's kind of one of the biggest things that I love to work with women on is like how can we reconnect you to you? How can you trust your body again, love your body again? See your beauty again because a a cancer diagnosis can strip you of that. And especially women with breast cancer, because breasts are such a huge part of feminine. Yes. Like that's what makes us women. And are they important, the size and what they look like? Absolutely not. But with these, we can feed. A you know, life. We could give life, right? And so I think there is because somebody so many people say to me, Chrissy, I don't care. I I'm gonna stay flat. They're just boobs. I don't need them. But and and I agree to a certain point. But for me, when I had my bilateral mastectomy, I was real I was like torn. Now now you just took away what was mine. what was like what I was born with. And there was a lot of work that needed to be done in that. A lot of healing and a lot of grieving of my old body and my old breast there. And that's not something that, you know, a lot of people, your doctors surely aren't gonna tell you that. Right. And we were talking about something just a little while ago about about, you know, you being able to massage the axillary nodes and by your breasts and breasts. Like your doctors don't tell you that. They They was maybe some do, but I know a lot of times it's like fearful. If you don't have lymph nodes, then be stay away from that area, stay away from that side, you know? And it's like these are the things that we need to talk about more. So sorry, I just kind of like skipped a beat, but I remembered I wanted to come back to that. Babz: Yeah, I appreciate that. Crissy and Marie: But yeah, ladies, love your bodies, love your boobies, love your bodies, Babz: Right. Crissy and Marie: love your lymph, love everything. Babz: Yeah. Appreciate and and be grateful. Even if you're having a, you know, tough time with your body, it's yeah, your your soul's living in that body. It's not really, you know, it's one of my friends one time she w she said that something she said she called it like a download that she got and she was saying that you know, if she if she passed away and was looking down on her body and and she would want to feel like she took care of that body and like your soul lives on like you you know your mind your you know your soul everything your energy will live on but like you have this vehicle and like i would would you be happy the way you you know treated this vehicle and I thought that was it made Crissy and Marie: Yeah. Hmm. Babz: me think like okay yeah this is something we we shouldn't take granted take for granted Crissy and Marie: Right. Think about that. With our cars, we get oil changes. We take to get tune-ups. We put gas in it. Our house, we cleans our houses and stuff like that, right? So we need to do the same thing and kind of think about that as being the same thing for our bodies too. So lymphatic love. I love it. Yay. Well, this Babz: Mm. Yeah. Crissy and Marie: was fabulous. You are such a joy. And I think this conversation is going to help many and just open the eyes to many, to many things. Babz: Thanks. Thanks for having me. Crissy and Marie: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, friends. Until next time. Take care. Babz: Thanks.