Latest / Unstuck Pod / Humans Lead AI Follows (Norm Currie and Jamie Schneiderman)

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Humans Lead AI Follows (Norm Currie and Jamie Schneiderman) · Unstuck Pod

• Jamie: everyone to ⁓ this Norm, welcome to you. Glad you could be here ⁓ and forward to having conversation today. Norm: Thank you very much, Jamie. I appreciate the invite and looking forward to the conversation. Jamie: Awesome. So can you start off by just letting everybody know like you're like more about you. Who are you? What have you done? Where are you working? And then we'll like jump into it from there. That'd be great. Norm: Absolutely. My name is Norman Curry and I am the VP and lead for the customer and partner experience organization at Bricklayer AI. I have in the cybersecurity information technology for the better part of the last 25 years. ⁓ I have watched grow up from, you know, ⁓ IT to truly InfoSec during that time. ⁓ Much of the last couple of decades I've spent in the managed security, the managed security space as well as the channel space. So I've got experience on both the sec ops and the operation, ⁓ sec ops and operations, as well as the sales and channel side of the house. Some of the organizations I've been involved with over the years include five years at McAfee running the global MSSP and service provider channel enablement initiatives. A of years at ⁓ MDRs like Expel and Binary Defense, where I've owned organizations like CS, ⁓ SecOps, Detection Engineering, or Technical Account Management. pivoted to the AI space after better part of the last two decades, ⁓ just three years ago, where I started doing some consulting prior to jumping in with both feet because... It's the first technology that I've seen that truly offers the chance for transformation within security, within security operations for the enterprise. I've watched the promise of tech and its failure to really deliver a lot over that time from the ⁓ of SIM world through ⁓ the of SOAR and the evolution of that over the past decade. And while all very useful technologies that have helped us advance what we do, I believe that true genic AI has been the first technology that I've seen that has really begun to deliver on that promise to help transform the way that we approach security operations. Jamie: Interesting. Well, we're going to dig in more on that. OK, so let's talk when you say that and you describe it that way. Let's talk about Bricklayer. Let's talk about where you are. And let's talk about sort of what it ⁓ and what it or different. So let's start there. Norm: Sure, absolutely. I'll take half a step back and I'll explain where I, what led to my decision to join Bricklayer and help to build this organization with our CEO and founder, Adam Vincent. I took a look at what AI was doing and I've spoken to many of the vendors in this space over the past several years. What I found is that many times vendors have, as with many technologies, have defined a problem that they saw in the marketplace and tried to build a solution to deliver on that problem statement. The issue that I've seen and that we continue to make in our industry, the mistake we continue to make, is that when a vendor defines a problem and doesn't provide the necessary flexibility for the enterprise or for service providers to be a part of the build of the solution, you'll wind up with a solution that may be very useful, but is always taking care of just a portion of the problem. 80-20 rule, where 20 % is always left to clean up. What really excited me about Bricklayer ⁓ that they built from the ground up from day one to be truly an agentic AI platform that involves the customer with the ability to define the way the problem gets solved. So let me explain what I mean by that. Bricklayer as a platform isn't a single agent, but a true agentic AI workforce. You have multiple agents that have various roles, and they work together to solve the use cases that a customer has. Out of the box, there are many of the standard use cases that you see for problems that organizations are trying to solve. AI sock, AI-based thread hunting, AI-based vulnerability management, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The difference with Bricklayer is that you can land on one of those use cases that you need to solve, get out of the box, and get ROI and production functionality in a really short time frame. But as you continue to grow and you see new areas of inefficiency within SecOps that AI can be applied to, you don't have to go out and find a new tool. You don't have to go buy another agent you have a platform that gives you the ability to exercise that entire agentic AI workforce. For customers, it even provides the ability not only to build your own use cases and procedures, all using AI, which makes it all very quick and easy, no engineering required. but it also gives you the ability to even build your own agents within the platform that have specialized capability that you may need to solve that problem. it's the first time that we've seen a platform that involves the customer in the expansion of the use of AI. And can dig into all the nuts and bolts in the details and I can tell you why it works so well compared to other solutions that I've seen. But I we have a limited time on the podcast. ⁓ Jamie: Well, no, and I want to go back to it because I do, because actually I find it, what I find fascinating about what you're describing is that the true benefits of the product is that it has the ability, I say to do anything inside this world, right? Inside of this world of security, ⁓ Cybersecurity, is both an incredible product strength Norm: Mm-hmm. Jamie: Right. So, so that is an incredible product strength, all that flexibility, the expansion capability to your point, right. We can, it can extend itself into other areas. Um, but it naturally also creates, um, difficulty in terms of defining what it is and, and right. And so I, I just wanted to, like, I wanted to talk a little bit about it. Cause I, you talk about differentiation, so let's come back to differentiation. I do want to talk about it. Norm: Mm-hmm. See ya. Jamie: But I want to talk a little bit about the intersection between differentiation, uniqueness of product specialization, right? It sounds like we're actually sort of going into a world which is bigger change, not just minor step change, much bigger change, which is both good and bad. So I want to talk a little bit about how that, where the benefits are within the product, right? And what makes it different and unique, but also how you define that and a customer is able to easily grasp sort of that from a messaging or idea point of view. Norm: Well, it's interesting because we always talk about, or at least I always talk about the fact that I think we have an enormous opportunity with the land and expand model. And what I mean by that is, as I said, you can land on a single use case, but as you deploy and you see value and you find other areas that you want to expand it, that, as you said, is a huge product strength and one that we're just beginning to realize within the space. It also creates a land and expand issue when it comes to messaging though, because as the world is becoming accustomed to what AI can do, as it's trying to determine where the needs are, it creates a need to be able to define yourself very clearly and very quickly as solving a specific problem while wanting to pivot into that broader message. That's probably one of the biggest challenges that many AI organizations, Bricklayer in particular has, is defining itself within the market to help people to understand that yes, out of the box, if you need an AI sock-based solution, we're there. If you need an AI-based thread hunt solution, we can do that very quickly and easily for you as well. But the power, the long-term advantage, that differentiation is the ability to continue to expand the platform to meet your needs and that you as a customer have an opportunity to define that. One of the... Typical motions for a customer when they land on a product is to over the first couple of months or quarters They start finding the gaps in coverage where they need the product vendor to then build something new or to add a feature or to make a change And while all that is always going to be true It's not necessary with bricklayer as it relates to expanding into those other needs because as a customer you have the ability innately within the product to define a new use case or procedure, to define a new agent, to have it work within the platform as you need it to based on how you have quantified the problem that you're solving. So, do need ⁓ an triage and investigation use case that is ⁓ toward specific type of an alert? Jamie: Thanks Norm: with a specific SOP or process that's different from all others? Yes, you can absolutely define that and run a different procedure for that. Do you need some to automatically initiate tickets while others go into what I'll call an auto-close remediation mode? That can all be defined very quickly and easily within the platform to meet specific needs for a customer. And that can be expanded into accounting for your existing SOPs, way that your existing staff is working, based on any other processes or procedures you've already developed in your environment. So it can truly operate similar to ⁓ a human workforce that has different skills ⁓ and defined job responsibilities. Jamie: Okay, and you know, it's interesting for me because I hear it and it's like, sounds ⁓ it's very exciting. I can understand why you would be excited, especially with all your background in this space. ⁓ let me ask a different, So who's the Where's the focus, from a... like who you're talking to I guess, as a customer is in. Norm: Sure. We've had two primary ICPs identified today. first is in the enterprise space where we're selling through our partnership models into ⁓ enterprises, typically over a billion in revenue. That's really our sweet spot in that direct sales motion. But also have a dedicated sales strategy into the MSSP and service provider community, managed security, MDR providers, et cetera, to help us get downstream into that broader customer community because the platform itself is inherently built to provide advantages to service providers as well. You know, you have the ability to not only set up individual accounts for your individual customers to be able to track usage of the product within that environment, to provide the metrics and the standardized executive dashboarding and reporting on each of those four service providers. So it's a huge advantage for an organization looking to implement a tool and be able to quantify the cost of that as part of their overall price and service delivery model. Jamie: Okay, so all right. here ⁓ some things that I'd love to dig into. I'd love to understand, right? So you're dealing with a very, very complex product, ⁓ as in newer age, very sophisticated technology, solving problems that are ⁓ gimme problems, ⁓ And it's, and by the way, in a world that's constantly changing on you, probably more aggressively than in most other... areas that you're trying to solve with respect to a client. So let's talk a little bit about as you've out, as the business has grown ⁓ and ⁓ it to make its way, what are some of the surprises that you've experienced or things that you've seen as you've gone through this that have kind of made you go, ⁓ thought either I thought this was going to be easier or I thought this was going to be harder as you're looking at some of the things that are going on within the business. Norm: Well, I mean, think we've run into, as an industry, a number of different roadblocks. Every new technology comes with the initial fear of missing out where everyone wants to lean in and learn more. able to that selling on value ⁓ not just price advantages ⁓ ⁓ big component to any ⁓ technology platform. AI has been no different in that regard. What I mean by that is there are a lot of folks who simply talk about AI as a replacement for the security analyst. Can we displace people with technology? And that's not really where, ⁓ not its core capability or what it's meant to do. So helping ⁓ organizations understand. that the goal of agentic AI as part of security operations is really a human in the loop model where you want to shift the role of the analyst to the right, meaning that most tech ops organizations will tell you what one of their biggest problems is. you know, actually having the ability to look at the quantity of information coming in and make proper determinations. The number of alerts are just overwhelming at times. And you come up with a lot of rules about what you need to really lean in to address with people. And disregards lot of potential risk, but it's a trade-off for organizations to be able to do that. Where AI really shines is in its ability to handle much of the rote activity that people have to do within a sec ops organization. The standard pivoting to a number of tools to validate or correlate information, making some of the core determinations about whether or not it rises to a deeper investigation requirement. AI handles that work when properly set up and configured so well that it shifts the analyst's role to the right and puts them in a position where now they are validating the information and providing insight where true human intuition is required. So it takes the assembly line concept out of the process and ⁓ moves to a place where They're able to use that intuition to make proper determinations and give their customers better outcomes. That's been, you know, that's harder for people to understand than simply saying that you can pay X dollars for a tool versus X times three for staff so it saves you money. It's not just about the efficiency, but it's about the consistency and quality of output that you've received with the tool that makes such a difference. Jamie: Mm-hmm. Right. Interesting. Interesting as you've gone. So interesting in terms of where the, you know, so far ahead, such a giant leap forward that it becomes, know, people can't keep up with the, with the pace of the new concept. Yeah. Norm: Yeah. And, it's funny, I was reading a LinkedIn post by someone in the industry earlier today, who's talking about with RSA coming up next week, the idea that there's going to be so much coverage around AI at the upcoming conference that the, ⁓ what calling the trust me bro. ⁓ Era of AI is quickly coming to an end where we need to stop just talking about how much the technology can do and be able to provide things like auditability and traceability of the results that you're seeing, how you quantify metrics. Bricklayer in particular is in a unique position where it's been built, as I said, from the ground up to really accomplish those things. So as an example, there are ROI calculators built into the executive dashboard that gives you the ability to quantify human hours saved as well as dollars saved on a procedure by procedure basis when it's run. And as a customer, you have the ability to go in and change both the rates at which ⁓ calculating Jamie: Okay. Norm: and the time with which or time that humans would take to do the same tasks. So while we provide default information in there based on traditional labor rates or our estimates of that time. ⁓ As a customer, you have the ability to make those changes on your business model and then see the ROI and the outcomes in a way that makes sense to you and is justifiable to you. It's ⁓ cool what the technology is doing right now. Jamie: Yeah, no, no, it sounds like there's a... Okay, no, no, this is... like it. It does sound really like there's a lot there, which is a mate, is blessing curse, not ⁓ curse it's a bad thing, but it's... There's more to think about, right? That's where I was going. Norm: Yeah. I Jamie, I can tell you that I get into more trouble in calls because I'll begin to geek out on the things that really excite me about what it can do. And you dive into, you can go down so many rabbit holes about the advantages of it that. Jamie: Yeah. Yes. Norm: that typically I'll get an SC or one of our sales guys kick me under the table and tell me to quiet myself down because already interested. You have to keep selling. ⁓ But there really are so ⁓ many things that technology is doing in our space right now. Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Norm: And there's a lot of great work being done by a lot of great companies. So while I am obviously unapologetically an advocate for our organization here at Berkleyer, I know that there's a lot of companies doing really, really good work in this space right now. Jamie: No, no, that's great. OK, so can you do me a favor? I'd love to know from your perspective, what's the one thing you wish you knew and wish you knew earlier? in your career, in work, in your career that you could share with others as advice about things that they could do just better as they're doing, as they're building a business that's is kind of building business. Norm: Sure. I mean, who knows me knows that I've made most of the mistakes that I will caution those against. But, you know, if looking after doing this for the better part of 25 years, I was talking to someone who's just beginning their career and is really looking for where to pivot. The first thing would tell people is that titles don't matter, Jamie: Yeah. Norm: especially when you're working in a fast-paced industry where things are changing so quickly. Find passion for the work that you're doing. Whether that's customer-facing or that's coding or that is QA and testing or it's building a marketing function, passion in the work that you're doing. A lot of things will pay the bills and it's a necessary evil that we all need to collect a paycheck, absolutely. But if you have the opportunity to find something that you're really passionate about, don't worry about the title, don't worry about you know, as much as you can, don't worry about a couple of thousand dollars here or there in terms of compensation. Find your passion and dig into that. Number one. Number two don't strictly at technology. Look at the team that you're working with and around. Look for people who operate with integrity, with, with transparency, who care about genuinely helping the customer. Jamie: Yeah. Norm: because there are great organizations that I've worked with in the past that became interested in the product and what the ⁓ of product was to the external market versus what their existing customer base and the folks they were working with and the outcomes they were receiving. So care deeply about your customer. You know, and when you're in an organization where you have a level of and transparency and feels everybody talks about culture and culture fit, know, culture culture fit is just about to are the the people that you're working with type of people that, you know, when you're putting in long hours or when there's an opportunity to go out and grab a beer together that you actually enjoy it. because especially in the startup world, in the startup technology world, the line between work-life balance is constantly blurring. talks about unplugging and not having, ⁓ fine. If you can do that, more power to you. I never have been able to, so I'm the guy who gets an ID and jumps on my laptop at midnight and ⁓ throwing out messages to people ⁓ because. you know, I want to make sure I capture that passion and what I'm feeling. And if you're working with people that you really enjoy working with, it makes all the difference in the world. Jamie: Yeah. Awesome. That's great. all right. Well, listen, you've been great with your time and great. I love the insights, ⁓ information insights. I know you could keep going and that's, and I appreciate that. And so thank you. so, so for the sake of those who are listening, watching listening, how can they find you? Like, how can they find you follow you? ⁓ Norm: ⁓ absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you can find me on LinkedIn under Norman Curry. C-U-R-R-I-E. You find Bricklayer at www.bricklayer.ai. You know, I think those are probably the easiest ways. If you want to reach out to me directly, you can reach me at norman.curry at bricklayer.ai. That's my email address. if you're interested in talking more about the platform or about the industry as a whole, or just correcting all the things that I probably said that you find mistaken, ⁓ can feel free to give me all the criticism that you like. ⁓ this many years, I definitely have a thick skin. Jamie: Noooo OK, awesome. Noor, thank you so much, guys. Thank you for watching, listening. And until the next time. Norm: Appreciate it, Jamie. Thank you so much.