Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / Stepping Into Strength: Resilient Parenting, Movement, and Healing the Overwhelmed Mind | Dr. Kate Lund | Ep 41

Transcript

Stepping Into Strength: Resilient Parenting, Movement, and Healing the Overwhelmed Mind | Dr. Kate Lund | Ep 41 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
• 0:01
  Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
• 0:03
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
• 0:06
  The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
• 0:13
  audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up,
• 0:19
  like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really, really helps us to make the pro.
• 0:24
  To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries,
• 0:29
  books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com.
• 0:34
  So now let's jump in.
• 0:36
  Welcome back to Live Free.
• 0:38
  Ride Free.
• 0:38
  I've got Dr.
• 0:39
  Kate Lund.
• 0:41
  I hope I pronounce it right.
• 0:42
  Might be Lund, might be Lund one doesn't know with these Yeah.
• 0:45
  Scandinavian names through the North American filter.
• 0:49
  But she is specialist in the area of resilience and
• 0:56
  particularly resilience parenting.
• 0:59
  And those of you who know my story know that I've had to cultivate some of that.
• 1:03
  And those of you who are special needs parents who are listening
• 1:06
  to this are busy cultivating as much of that as you possibly can.
• 1:10
  And I like the fact that the conversation is turning a little bit.
• 1:18
  Away from just trauma, trauma informed, da, da, da, all of those things, which are
• 1:23
  the buzzwords of up until quite recently.
• 1:27
  And because I, I've always felt a bit like, well, yeah, you sort of can't
• 1:31
  go around on planet Earth without getting traumatized from time to time.
• 1:35
  It's what do you do with it?
• 1:37
  How do you recover from it?
• 1:40
  That's always what's of interest to me.
• 1:42
  And so I'm very excited to have Dr.
• 1:44
  Kate to talk to us about that.
• 1:46
  She's the author of a book called Step Away which hopefully she'll
• 1:50
  talk to us about and her own story.
• 1:52
  So without further ado, Dr.
• 1:55
  Kate, welcome to The Livery Ride Free.
• 1:57
  Please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it.
• 2:03
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 2:03
  Sure.
• 2:04
  Absolutely.
• 2:04
  Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 2:06
  I really appreciate it.
• 2:07
  I'm, I'm glad to be here.
• 2:08
  This is, this is gonna be fun.
• 2:09
  So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 2:13
  I've been doing this work for 20 plus years, and at this point I
• 2:19
  work primarily with adults, many of whom, most of whom are parents.
• 2:25
  Oftentimes they also, in addition to their own struggles or challenges that they're
• 2:31
  facing, have a, have a child facing some sort of a challenge or obstacle.
• 2:35
  So sometimes we work concurrently.
• 2:38
  I started out in medical psychology, pediatric medical psychology and then we
• 2:44
  moved about 17 times for my husband's job.
• 2:47
  And I, then we had kids of our own.
• 2:50
  I have 18-year-old twin boys.
• 2:52
  So I really kind of worked to keep my focus, my practice somewhat portable and
• 2:57
  flexible so I could be available for them.
• 3:00
  So kinda pivoted to the virtual world and away from those 80
• 3:05
  hour work weeks in the hospital.
• 3:07
  But I still at this point have a passion for that area.
• 3:11
  And I'm out in the hospital, Seattle Children's Hospital several times
• 3:15
  a month, probably more than that with my dog Wally, who is a part of
• 3:20
  their animal assisted therapy team.
• 3:22
  And that is a big, big piece of my passion and my work these
• 3:28
  days that I absolutely love.
• 3:30
  In addition to that, I write books.
• 3:32
  I have a podcast, and that's, that's basically the, the
• 3:35
  long and the short of it.
• 3:36
  So that's me in a nutshell.
• 3:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 3:38
  What's your podcast?
• 3:39
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 3:39
  It's called The Optimized Mind.
• 3:41
  And it's really is the, the main goal is to.
• 3:46
  Access the human experience of resilience.
• 3:49
  How have folks overcome challenge, built what they've built, bounced back
• 3:54
  from adversity, that sort of thing?
• 3:56
  Really from a hu through a human lens.
• 3:58
  We interview folks across domains corporate folks, entrepreneurs
• 4:03
  authors, parents, athletes.
• 4:05
  So it's a really wide range.
• 4:07
  It's a broad, broad reaching show.
• 4:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Fascinating.
• 4:10
  Alright, now I've read your bio, of course.
• 4:13
  So I know about a little bit about why you do this work, but the people
• 4:18
  listening and watching will not, you have your own special needs story.
• 4:23
  Could you tell us that?
• 4:24
  And then from there I want to start asking how do we cultivate resilience?
• 4:28
  So, but let's start with you.
• 4:30
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 4:30
  Sure.
• 4:31
  Absolutely.
• 4:31
  So, yeah, when I was four, I was diagnosed with a condition, a medical
• 4:36
  condition called hydrocephalus.
• 4:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 4:38
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 4:38
  Came on very suddenly when I was four.
• 4:40
  And what that is, is it's the cerebral spinal fluid isn't
• 4:44
  circulating as it should, so pressure builds up on the brain.
• 4:47
  And so at four, I wasn't really able to articulate, oh my goodness,
• 4:51
  I have this horrible headache.
• 4:52
  But I was throwing up, you know, just outta the blue.
• 4:55
  I would say my forehead hurt.
• 4:57
  I would, you know, my eyes would be kind of all over the place.
• 5:00
  'cause when you have pressure on your brain, your eyes don't
• 5:02
  really work the way they should.
• 5:04
  So it was really a hard, hard thing.
• 5:05
  My parents were trying to figure out what was going on.
• 5:09
  Imaging in those days was in its infancy, so it took a while for the
• 5:13
  doctors to figure out what it was.
• 5:16
  The good news is the condition is managed with something called a shunt, which
• 5:20
  actually circulates the cerebral spinal fluid when it can't circulate on its own.
• 5:25
  So I had a shunt put in.
• 5:27
  Bad news is shunts break.
• 5:29
  So a large portion of my childhood was spent in and outta the hospital, coming
• 5:34
  back to school looking different, feeling different, you know, big glasses, half
• 5:39
  ahead of shaved hair, wearing a huge helmet when I was ice skating with my
• 5:43
  classmates, you know, when helmets were not cool back in that, in those days.
• 5:48
  So that was, yeah, it was, it was a hard, hard time.
• 5:51
  And I was lucky because I had a lot of great support from my parents,
• 5:56
  my teachers, parents of friends, and they helped me to, when the shunt was
• 6:02
  working well focus on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
• 6:06
  And that then I think that made all the difference for me really to be
• 6:09
  able to move forward in a way that.
• 6:13
  Enabled me to be resilient and believe in my possibility as opposed
• 6:18
  to just in what wasn't possible.
• 6:21
  Rupert Isaacson: And you still have a shunt?
• 6:22
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 6:22
  I do, yes.
• 6:23
  Rupert Isaacson: That's for life, right?
• 6:24
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 6:24
  That's
• 6:25
  Rupert Isaacson: for life, yes.
• 6:25
  And does it still break from time to time, or are they now much better and
• 6:28
  so there's, there's more stability?
• 6:31
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 6:31
  Well, yes and no.
• 6:32
  They do break.
• 6:33
  I am, I have not had, knock on wood, I should preface that with a knock
• 6:38
  on wood, a revision since 2001.
• 6:40
  Okay.
• 6:41
  But it happens, you know, and it's, it's nothing is guaranteed.
• 6:46
  So yes, there's a, there's that piece that lives in the
• 6:49
  back of your mind at all time.
• 6:50
  I mean, in the back of my mind at all times.
• 6:53
  Yes.
• 6:53
  Rupert Isaacson: So hydrocephalus I know some people with it but
• 6:57
  they were diagnosed at birth.
• 6:58
  Is it is it common for it to be a later onset like that?
• 7:03
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 7:03
  It can be a later onset.
• 7:05
  And so for me the story is that at four I was diagnosed, they didn't know why I had
• 7:12
  the hydrocephalus because as I mentioned in imaging was its in its infancy.
• 7:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:16
  So they could figure out, you know, the, the ventricles were big.
• 7:19
  The, the cerebral spinal fluid wasn't circulating, but the
• 7:22
  imaging was only that good.
• 7:24
  So it wasn't until I was 18 when the MRI with Gadolinium came out.
• 7:31
  Gadolinium is the contrasting agent for MRIs that they were able
• 7:35
  to see the two tumors that were actually blocking my aqueduct.
• 7:39
  So that was another massive hurdle.
• 7:43
  Actually.
• 7:43
  It was you know, they, they had to go in and operate on those tumors.
• 7:47
  The second one of those operations was very, very difficult.
• 7:51
  And I was basically out.
• 7:54
  For an entire year, postponed college for a year had to recover.
• 7:58
  And there too, I was extremely fortunate.
• 8:00
  You know, it was a long drawn out saga, but I did bounce back.
• 8:04
  And,
• 8:05
  Rupert Isaacson: and these tumors presumably were, were
• 8:07
  they benign or were they
• 8:09
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 8:09
  Yeah, they were, they were considered low grade juvenile pilocytic astrocytomas.
• 8:14
  So what that means is, in childhood, a low grade tumor is much different
• 8:20
  than if it were diagnosed in adulthood.
• 8:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 8:23
  And yeah, I've, I was very, very fortunate and that those had been
• 8:27
  around since I was four, and they were discovered when I was 18.
• 8:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 8:30
  And is that what had caused the hydrocephalus, in fact?
• 8:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 8:32
  Yes.
• 8:33
  Yes, exactly.
• 8:33
  Rupert Isaacson: I see, I see, I see.
• 8:34
  So the late onset was because of these tumors.
• 8:38
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 8:38
  Yep.
• 8:38
  Exactly.
• 8:39
  It's like, it's like it's possible that they were there when I
• 8:42
  was born, but they grew okay.
• 8:43
  Because they were growing through my childhood.
• 8:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:46
  We just didn't know I had them.
• 8:47
  So, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's, they were there and that's
• 8:52
  what caused the hydrocephalus.
• 8:54
  Rupert Isaacson: And do they have any idea what caused them?
• 8:58
  No.
• 8:58
  Or is that just a completely open question?
• 9:00
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 9:00
  It's a completely open question.
• 9:02
  They have no idea why that happens.
• 9:04
  And Yeah.
• 9:06
  Rupert Isaacson: And you are clear now, or are you, do you have to go
• 9:09
  in and be checked from time to time?
• 9:11
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 9:11
  Well, so when the tumors were diagnosed that became the main focus, right?
• 9:17
  It was like, oh no, there are these tumors.
• 9:18
  And so for about 25 years or so, from that point, when I was 18, they were
• 9:24
  watched very, very, very closely.
• 9:27
  The frequency between scans has definitely increased.
• 9:31
  And now the focus is more on making sure the shunt is working well.
• 9:34
  Okay.
• 9:34
  But, but even that, even that's not all the time.
• 9:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 9:38
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 9:38
  So the, the, it has definitely spread out.
• 9:40
  Yeah.
• 9:41
  Rupert Isaacson: So tell me what are the limitations I want to talk to what
• 9:45
  are the non limitations and the, but what are the natural limitations, both
• 9:49
  for a child and an adult, if you are wearing a shunt, if you are managing
• 9:54
  this condition, what can't you do?
• 9:57
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 9:57
  Yeah, so that's, that's a really interesting question.
• 9:59
  'cause I know what I had to stay away from when I was a child.
• 10:04
  You know fast rides at the amusement park strobe lights,
• 10:08
  blinking lights, you know, fast.
• 10:10
  I couldn't do gymnastics, hang upside down.
• 10:13
  I had to be really cognizant of.
• 10:16
  Getting hit in the head.
• 10:17
  So I couldn't play contact sports in any way.
• 10:20
  I had to wear a giant, you couldn't
• 10:21
  Rupert Isaacson: get into pipes in the playground.
• 10:23
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 10:23
  I could not, no.
• 10:24
  And I, I, I, I, I shied away from those anyway, but yeah.
• 10:27
  Even the, and giant helmet, but
• 10:29
  Rupert Isaacson: one can't always avoid them, you know?
• 10:30
  So is there a certain element of living in fear as a child in the playground at
• 10:35
  that, you know, that comes with that?
• 10:37
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 10:37
  I think what, what happened for me, I, I mean, I wasn't in fear about
• 10:41
  fights 'cause that just, I wasn't gonna get into that in any way.
• 10:45
  It was my, and
• 10:45
  Rupert Isaacson: it wasn't a, a particularly bullying type of school?
• 10:48
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 10:48
  No.
• 10:49
  I mean, bullying, laughing from a distance, but not, not pushing
• 10:52
  me around or anything like that.
• 10:54
  Okay.
• 10:54
  But I think that there was an element of fear because I was always afraid of what
• 11:01
  was gonna happen and what could happen.
• 11:03
  Yeah.
• 11:03
  And all of that.
• 11:03
  So I became absolutely very, very cautious.
• 11:06
  Like, I, I was a very cautious child and I'm still cautious.
• 11:09
  I mean, I, you know.
• 11:11
  I, I, I'm not, I, I never had that kind of mm, experience of being like a carefree
• 11:18
  child who just did whatever in the moment.
• 11:21
  Yeah.
• 11:21
  Because I felt like it, I was always like having to think about the ramifications.
• 11:25
  Rupert Isaacson: And if you wanted to say, for example, go off to the
• 11:28
  Amazon and sit in the jungle for 10 years, is that feasible for you?
• 11:32
  Or do you need, is that, no, I must be close to good medical care where,
• 11:38
  you know, there's that infrastructure.
• 11:41
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 11:41
  I would say Yes.
• 11:42
  I, I, I think, yeah, definitely.
• 11:44
  I mean, I'm not, again, my disposition wouldn't take me
• 11:47
  to the Amazon for 10 years.
• 11:49
  But, but yeah, definitely.
• 11:50
  That's always kind of in the back of my mind like, hmm, I can't, you know,
• 11:55
  move to wherever just because I want to.
• 11:58
  It has to be somewhere where there is, is good medical, solid medical care.
• 12:04
  Yeah.
• 12:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
• 12:05
  And then.
• 12:06
  In terms of your own children are the tumors completely random?
• 12:11
  Are, is it hereditary?
• 12:12
  Does that go in the back of your mind?
• 12:15
  What if that develops or is that not really a worry?
• 12:18
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 12:18
  Yeah, I mean, it definitely crossed our minds when, you know, the boys were
• 12:23
  young and, and all of these things.
• 12:25
  But, and I, and before we had the boys, you know, I, I asked those
• 12:29
  questions, you know, is there perhaps a hereditary or genetic component to this?
• 12:33
  And they're like, absolutely not.
• 12:35
  No, they were pretty, pretty convinced.
• 12:37
  And, and my boy, my boys are great.
• 12:39
  You know, they're, they're, they knock on wood, have not had
• 12:42
  any, any issues similar to this.
• 12:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
• 12:46
  Then finally, pregnancy pregnancy with a shunt, any different or, or not?
• 12:52
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 12:52
  It's, it's very, it's doable.
• 12:54
  But it requires a greater, a greater, I, you know, more, more appointments,
• 12:59
  more, but definitely doable.
• 13:01
  Okay.
• 13:01
  In most cases.
• 13:02
  Yeah.
• 13:03
  Rupert Isaacson: So all of this of course, prepares you for helping
• 13:08
  people with the resilience because you had to learn to be resilient.
• 13:12
  Let's just go back to your childhood.
• 13:16
  Can you give me a point where you felt at your most un resilient, like where was the
• 13:23
  bottom of the curve and what do you think were the tools that you found and employed
• 13:30
  to begin to get you out of there that have now brought you to the work that you do?
• 13:35
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 13:35
  Yeah, that's a really, really interesting point or interesting question.
• 13:39
  And I think, you know, there were two kind of bottom points.
• 13:44
  The first one I would say was when I was 10 and my shunt was
• 13:51
  not working for a very long time.
• 13:53
  But again, the imaging.
• 13:54
  Wasn't what it is today.
• 13:57
  And they couldn't see what was happening.
• 13:59
  I actually had developed a a cyst which was gonna require a second shunt
• 14:05
  and they couldn't see it at the time.
• 14:07
  So I got, I was really, really sick, but I was struggling through
• 14:11
  because the doctor said there was nothing wrong, even though Right.
• 14:14
  I was not well.
• 14:15
  And that was really a, a, a bottoming out in terms of being
• 14:19
  in school, feeling like that.
• 14:21
  But then finally they figured it out.
• 14:24
  I got to see and meet with and, and have the cyst managed by another
• 14:32
  doctor who I then ended up, who then ended up following me, you
• 14:36
  know, for the rest of my childhood.
• 14:37
  So that I think was a, a big piece my.
• 14:42
  Kind of in, in integrating or internalizing this ability to come back
• 14:46
  from that, you know, I had to be out of school for like three, four months.
• 14:50
  Coming back wasn't easy.
• 14:52
  But the truth is, I did come back and I was able to then focus on really
• 14:57
  dial, dial in on what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
• 15:01
  And one of the things that, that had happened earlier is that, you
• 15:06
  know, I couldn't play contact sports.
• 15:08
  I had wanted to play ice hockey like my brother, but that was out.
• 15:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:11
  So I gravitated towards tennis and that became a big deal for me.
• 15:16
  Like that was a huge piece of my, my identity, my life.
• 15:19
  And I became pretty good at it.
• 15:21
  I was never the best, but I was good, you know, and, and that was
• 15:26
  really, that meant a lot to me.
• 15:27
  And it, it reinforced for me what I could do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
• 15:31
  So tennis was huge coming back from that, that point.
• 15:36
  And then the second kind of.
• 15:38
  This kind of dip or really low point was after the second tumor surgery where I
• 15:44
  was really, really, it was a very, very difficult year with many complications and
• 15:50
  many questions and all of these things.
• 15:53
  And I was able to come back from that.
• 15:55
  And riding my bike helped me there.
• 15:58
  And I, I I, my dad gave me a bike to help me recover like 11 months
• 16:04
  after the whole saga started.
• 16:06
  And I was able to start college that following year and brought my bike
• 16:10
  with me and use that bike as a way of managing through all the challenges.
• 16:18
  And that became a central piece of my identity.
• 16:20
  So I think all of those things helped me focus on what was possible and really.
• 16:26
  Started my path of like, oh, okay, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a psychologist,
• 16:30
  you know, I'm gonna help people to move through and beyond challenges,
• 16:35
  and I'm gonna, you know, that kind of all started to crystallize in college
• 16:38
  and wasn't a linear path from there, but it was the beginning of, okay, this
• 16:43
  is, this is actually what I'm gonna do.
• 16:46
  Rupert Isaacson: So your parents must have really gone through it.
• 16:50
  Did you observe that at the time and did that make you interested
• 16:56
  even on a subconscious level?
• 16:57
  Do you think because you, you, you now kind of specialize to some
• 17:00
  degree in resilience, parenting, your parents must have had to
• 17:05
  develop a fair bit of resilience.
• 17:06
  They must have been worried sick the whole time.
• 17:09
  It's, but it's interesting to me that you made that leap away from
• 17:11
  yourself more towards parenting.
• 17:15
  Why is that?
• 17:16
  And.
• 17:18
  Yeah, tell us a bit about your work with resilience parenting, because
• 17:24
  I, as someone who has to live that somewhat daily that is of interest to me.
• 17:29
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 17:29
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:30
  And you're right.
• 17:30
  I mean, my parents, it was, it was not easy for them, particularly in those,
• 17:35
  well in any of the years, but in those early years when the imaging wasn't, and
• 17:40
  you know, up to snuff or whatever, what it is today, and kind of like, well,
• 17:44
  we don't know what's wrong, but yet they knew something was really wrong.
• 17:47
  So that was very, very hard and my parents really helped me to focus on what I could
• 17:53
  do as opposed to what I couldn't do.
• 17:55
  They definitely struggled.
• 17:57
  They were definitely very anxious and sometimes that impacted me
• 18:00
  a little bit, like, you know, the whole like anxious piece.
• 18:04
  But they did the very best they could and they were really
• 18:06
  there every step of the way.
• 18:08
  And I really do believe were catalysts for me too.
• 18:13
  Kind of not see myself as someone who could, couldn't do things, but rather
• 18:18
  someone who could despite the challenges.
• 18:21
  And so that was, that was a, a big deal.
• 18:24
  And yeah, maybe, maybe it was a subconscious thing.
• 18:27
  My kind of gravitation towards the, the resilient parenting piece.
• 18:31
  I think another reason that resilient parenting has become
• 18:35
  kind of a primary focus is because of my own journey as a parent.
• 18:41
  And you know, my boys are 18 and so there's been that piece of it.
• 18:46
  So my, my new book, step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting is written
• 18:50
  through three lenses, the lens of my early experiences, and those of my
• 18:56
  parents mentioned at the beginning.
• 18:59
  My 20 years as a psychologist working with a lot of parents who are
• 19:04
  struggling with some, some situations, some challenge, medical challenge
• 19:08
  or otherwise with their child.
• 19:10
  I did my early training, my early, you know, many years of training
• 19:15
  in pediatric medical settings.
• 19:17
  Working a lot with parents in addition to the kids.
• 19:21
  And then the third lens is my life as a parent.
• 19:24
  So I think there's, there's a lot that brings me to this point, but
• 19:29
  definitely I think some on, on some level subconsciously and consciously related
• 19:35
  to watching my parents struggle with what they struggled in relation to my issues.
• 19:40
  Medically,
• 19:41
  Rupert Isaacson: tell us about your journey as a parent.
• 19:44
  How, what has happened?
• 19:47
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 19:47
  My, my journey as a parent has been awesome.
• 19:49
  Not without, not without its ups and downs, whatever, but you know, I.
• 19:54
  Our boys were, were born in 2007 and no sooner had we gotten them home
• 20:00
  from the hospital, my husband's job was transferred to another city.
• 20:04
  So
• 20:05
  Rupert Isaacson: what does your husband do?
• 20:06
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 20:06
  He is in sales and marketing.
• 20:08
  Yeah.
• 20:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
• 20:09
  So getting drafted to different places.
• 20:11
  Yep,
• 20:12
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 20:12
  yep.
• 20:12
  Getting drafted to different places within this, the same or different companies.
• 20:17
  And so there was a lot of that early on.
• 20:19
  So there was a lot of balance, you know, striking balances, but, but I
• 20:23
  entered parenthood thinking, no problem.
• 20:26
  I can, I can do it all.
• 20:27
  You know, I'm gonna have a robust career.
• 20:29
  I'm gonna be the parent who's present available, shows up.
• 20:33
  I'm gonna focus on my fitness, I'm gonna have my friends.
• 20:36
  It's gonna be great.
• 20:38
  No sooner had.
• 20:40
  The boy's been born that I figured, I've learned that that was not reality.
• 20:44
  So there is no perfect balance.
• 20:46
  There is no perfect.
• 20:48
  It's, it's the it's the balance that isn't right.
• 20:51
  You have to just do the best you can and strike a balance that
• 20:54
  works for you in the moment and in the, in the general situation.
• 20:57
  And that's what I learned.
• 20:58
  Took a while, but I learned it.
• 21:00
  And that's really what I, what I work with, with folks on as well.
• 21:03
  There's no one size fits all.
• 21:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 21:05
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 21:05
  And so the first, you know, several years I kind of put my career a little bit to
• 21:11
  the side so I could be present available.
• 21:15
  And I was very fortunate to be able to do that.
• 21:18
  And the boys, the boys and I had a good time as, as, as we were
• 21:22
  exhausted, as we were tired, as I caught many kid germs along the way.
• 21:27
  Aside from that, we, we had a good time.
• 21:29
  You know, I tried to.
• 21:30
  To do things with them.
• 21:31
  I wasn't, I wasn't reading parenting books.
• 21:33
  I was just doing the best I could, you know, I was popping them in their
• 21:37
  stroller and going out and walking and they knew me by name at Starbucks 'cause
• 21:42
  I was drinking way too much of that.
• 21:43
  But, you know, it was, it was the fact of really trying our best to
• 21:49
  do the best we could in the moment.
• 21:51
  And, and sure I didn't do everything perfectly and I don't think
• 21:55
  anyone does everything perfectly, but I did the best they could.
• 21:59
  My husband did the best he could, even though he was gone like six days a week.
• 22:03
  But he did the best he could.
• 22:04
  And you know, then when the boys were, Hmm, just about to turn
• 22:11
  four, we took a cross country road trip to our new home in Seattle.
• 22:16
  And I actually wrote a book about it narrated by my dog at the time and.
• 22:21
  Super fun, super fun trip, and we've been here ever since, you know, and
• 22:25
  striking the balance I've plugged my career in, I've built my career,
• 22:29
  but still tried to be around as much as as possible for the boys.
• 22:34
  And you know, probably will start a bit of a new chapter when they
• 22:38
  go off to college here soon.
• 22:39
  So, you know, it's, it's,
• 22:41
  Rupert Isaacson: but they haven't had a particular special needs
• 22:43
  history or anything like that.
• 22:44
  It's just been more the challenges that come with being a busy working mom.
• 22:51
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 22:51
  Yeah.
• 22:51
  Well, you know, they've had, they've had things, there've been bumps in the road,
• 22:55
  you know, one of them had strabismus
• 22:58
  Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
• 22:58
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 22:58
  And it's when the eyes don't track properly.
• 23:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:02
  So there was surgery for that early on, but we are very, very fortunate
• 23:07
  that that panned out in a positive way.
• 23:09
  But yeah, no, it's, it's been.
• 23:11
  From a medical perspective, knock on wood, again, to a typical childhood for them.
• 23:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Good.
• 23:18
  Okay.
• 23:19
  So you describe your own journey into resilience from those points of despair,
• 23:27
  and they must have been points of despair.
• 23:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:30
  What's, what stands out to me is it's about movement.
• 23:34
  So one thing is tennis, another thing there is riding the bike.
• 23:39
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 23:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about movement and resilience.
• 23:43
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 23:43
  Yeah, that's such a great question.
• 23:45
  And for me it's been integral.
• 23:48
  It's been, been everything.
• 23:50
  And so when I was younger, yes, it was tennis and being able to be out
• 23:55
  there on the court with the other kids and form relationships in that.
• 24:00
  Hmm.
• 24:00
  And I was never, never the best.
• 24:03
  I was, you know.
• 24:04
  The runner up in many tournaments, but I really if ever won the tournaments.
• 24:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:10
  And that was okay as long as I was out there playing and I was doing
• 24:14
  it from the inside out, moving, being out there on the court.
• 24:17
  'cause I loved it.
• 24:19
  Same with biking.
• 24:20
  I mentioned the bike my dad gave me when I was recovering from the brain
• 24:23
  tumor surgeries and started riding that.
• 24:27
  I rode it every single day, I would say in college.
• 24:31
  I rode it so much.
• 24:32
  And the summer I graduated, I rode my bike from Seattle to Denver with
• 24:38
  a group called Cycl Ascending Hunger.
• 24:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 24:41
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 24:41
  And we were, we were talking about the importance of proper nutrition
• 24:45
  and medical care for kids along the way you know, in the various towns
• 24:51
  that we were stopping in and such.
• 24:53
  And that was a huge experience for me because it was five
• 24:57
  years after the massive.
• 24:59
  Medical event with the, the brain surgeries that summer.
• 25:03
  And it, it meant everything to me to be able to be out
• 25:07
  there moving, doing that ride.
• 25:10
  And I, I was stubborn.
• 25:11
  I rode every single mile, even though I was last, every single day, even
• 25:16
  though I, I was in fine shape, but I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't up
• 25:20
  to the speed and the power that these other folks on my, on my trip were.
• 25:25
  But I was okay.
• 25:26
  I, I came in, you know, I, I was out there because I truly wanted to be there.
• 25:31
  Didn't matter to me if I came in last.
• 25:32
  I just wanted to be out there.
• 25:34
  So the idea of moving in that way yeah, has been a huge piece of my identity.
• 25:43
  And will continue to be, I mean, I'm doing it today these
• 25:46
  Rupert Isaacson: days.
• 25:47
  Are you familiar much with the neuroscience of, of movement?
• 25:50
  You know, so when, for example, my son became verbal
• 25:54
  in the saddle in front of me.
• 25:56
  I noticed almost immediately that the rhythm that the horse was in made a
• 26:02
  massive difference between how much or how little communication I got.
• 26:06
  And then I started recreating those rhythms.
• 26:09
  They're sort of soft dancey rhythms in, in horsey terms, you call
• 26:13
  it, collected a collected rhythm.
• 26:15
  And I thought, well, if, if this is working on the horse, so well,
• 26:19
  what about doing that off the horse?
• 26:21
  Right?
• 26:21
  So I emulated it with my shoulders.
• 26:25
  I emulated it on trampolines, I emulated it with swings, I emulated it with
• 26:28
  yoga balls, anything I could think of.
• 26:30
  And sure enough the results were pretty similar.
• 26:34
  And this also was born out with other kids who we would then invite, you
• 26:38
  know, to the, to the ranch to have play dates and they would respond to
• 26:42
  these rhythms on the horse and these particular ways of balancing and moving.
• 26:47
  So of course, at a certain point I, became curious and was like, well,
• 26:50
  I need to know why this is working.
• 26:52
  So I went to talk to neuroscientists and said, can you please explain?
• 26:56
  And the two things it really seemed to come down to was that if you rock
• 27:00
  your hips and rhythm, your body will produce the hormone oxytocin, which
• 27:05
  is not just a feel-good hormone that calms your over oversensitive nervous
• 27:09
  system, which of course, a lot of people say in your condition or in
• 27:12
  the condition of my son would've had.
• 27:14
  Which creates a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, stress hormone,
• 27:17
  cortisol, which blocks learning.
• 27:20
  So things can present as a sort of intellectual disability when they're not.
• 27:24
  It's like the intellects actually fine, it's just kind of behind a locked door.
• 27:27
  But then equally that same hormone is the hormone of communication.
• 27:32
  And then when somebody moves and problem solves, riding a horse,
• 27:36
  playing, playing tennis, riding a bike, dancing the brain produces, a protein.
• 27:43
  And that protein is called BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor.
• 27:48
  And that is neuroplasticity.
• 27:50
  That is the building block, the essential Lego piece, you
• 27:52
  know, of, of neuroplasticity that becomes those neurons.
• 27:56
  And so when that was explained, I was like, oh, well, okay, I guess
• 28:00
  we could replicate this then.
• 28:02
  And so we, we did.
• 28:04
  And it sounds like to some degree that was what was going on for you.
• 28:07
  Did you, at a certain point when things were at their worst for you feel that you
• 28:13
  were in some kind of brain fog and did you feel, did you notice how movement,
• 28:20
  particularly moving and problem solving and hard exercise and that sort of
• 28:24
  thing, which you've described, did you notice a coming out of the brain fog?
• 28:28
  Sort of, can you just talk, describe that process was, and, and if
• 28:33
  not, then what was the process?
• 28:35
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 28:35
  Yeah, it's really, really interesting and I, I.
• 28:38
  One thing is coming to mind.
• 28:40
  It's that year I mentioned when I had the, the first tumor surgery and
• 28:46
  then I had the second tumor surgery.
• 28:47
  And then there was a period of time where I was really not functioning
• 28:52
  very well in terms of my eyes were, they were in a constant state of motion
• 28:56
  because there was something, it just, it was not good and it was related
• 29:00
  to swelling and maybe something else, they're not quite sure what I bounced
• 29:03
  out a bit, but when I was in that space, I couldn't read, I couldn't watch tv.
• 29:08
  I was just kind of, I don't remember the brain fog per se, but I remember
• 29:13
  that I was just kind of there.
• 29:15
  I mean, I was wandering around as a whole,
• 29:17
  Rupert Isaacson: but stuck.
• 29:17
  Your brain couldn't do.
• 29:18
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 29:18
  Yeah, I was just kind of, but what, what I did every single day and what was super
• 29:24
  helpful for me, and I wasn't thinking about it in these terms that you just
• 29:27
  described, but I think it fits and I think it probably is what was happening.
• 29:31
  I would go, we had this circular driveway at my, at my parents' house.
• 29:35
  And I would go and it was a 10th of a mile around once and I would
• 29:40
  just walk around and around and around and that was what I did.
• 29:46
  And I know that I felt better, obviously because we feel
• 29:51
  better when we move, you know?
• 29:52
  And particularly if it's kind of a piece of kind of what we need to be at our best.
• 29:58
  But in that moment where I was far from my best, I was
• 30:01
  actually really, really impaired.
• 30:03
  Those walks meant everything like that was a big deal.
• 30:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you walked?
• 30:11
  Do you think that your body actually was wise and new?
• 30:17
  Listen, we need to get moving here so we can get this brain.
• 30:22
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 30:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Neuro plasticizing.
• 30:24
  Do, because I, I am a great believer that the body is wise.
• 30:27
  Do you think that was what was going on?
• 30:28
  Or, or how much of it was a conscious decision?
• 30:30
  Were you like, I just wanna move because I feel like I need to move?
• 30:34
  Like, what prompted you?
• 30:37
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 30:37
  I think there was a bit of both.
• 30:39
  Because I've always been someone who has thrived in movement.
• 30:43
  You know, I've always wanted to be in motion in some way, but in those
• 30:48
  moments when it would've been very easy to just sit because I wasn't really,
• 30:56
  I, I was, I was not in good shape.
• 30:58
  I think, yeah, I think my body probably knew.
• 31:01
  I, I think it was a combination, but for whatever, I'm, I'm grateful that, that
• 31:05
  my body was giving me those signals.
• 31:07
  And I also, I knew enough myself to know that, that it was gonna help
• 31:12
  me on some level, you know, and put,
• 31:15
  Rupert Isaacson: so tell me now about the work you do and the book
• 31:17
  that you've written, and how much do you integrate movement into that?
• 31:22
  And if so, what sorts of movement and why, and how do you tackle this
• 31:26
  with parents who are perhaps feeling defeated and crushed and exhausted,
• 31:32
  perhaps not wanting to move, et cetera.
• 31:34
  You know, talk us through your practice.
• 31:37
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 31:37
  Yeah, got it.
• 31:38
  So yeah, so the, the book Step Away, the Keys to Resilient Parenting
• 31:41
  definitely integrates movement
• 31:43
  Rupert Isaacson: step away.
• 31:44
  I guess you have to move to step away, right?
• 31:46
  Yeah,
• 31:46
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 31:46
  yeah, yeah.
• 31:47
  We're actually, we're stepping away so that we can step in more robustly,
• 31:50
  but yeah, and you know, the first piece is managing our stress response.
• 31:56
  Finding a way to show up as level as possible every day, because if
• 32:02
  we're starting the day up here.
• 32:05
  A stressor hits and boom, we shut, we escalate to the point of shutdown
• 32:09
  and that's not gonna gonna help us.
• 32:12
  And so, you know, I teach that the importance of finding that that modulated
• 32:17
  space in terms of our stress response, and that can either be through a mini
• 32:22
  meditation technique that I teach, derived from a technique developed
• 32:27
  by a physician in Boston in the 1970s called the relaxation response.
• 32:32
  So that's one, one thing to keep us level coming up with a word or
• 32:37
  a phrase that we find soothing in one, in some way, and then breathing
• 32:42
  and practicing that to the point of integration so we can show up level.
• 32:48
  And then it's layering on the other tools and strategies, one
• 32:52
  of which is definitely movement.
• 32:55
  Finding a way to move each and every day, whatever that looks like for you.
• 33:00
  Because the big idea in this book, and in really everything I teach,
• 33:04
  is that we want folks to thrive within their own unique context.
• 33:09
  There's no one size fits all in any of this.
• 33:12
  And so some folks might be, oh yeah, I've got the movement thing covered.
• 33:17
  You know, I'm on the Peloton every morning.
• 33:20
  But some clients might say, well, I don't really have time to move.
• 33:25
  I haven't exercised in 10 years.
• 33:28
  I don't know what to do.
• 33:29
  I don't know how to start.
• 33:31
  So those are two very different, you know, starting places for integrating
• 33:36
  movement in a, in a meaningful way.
• 33:38
  So really it's about those small steps forward.
• 33:42
  We really wanna avoid having that A to Z mentality.
• 33:45
  And if we don't succeed in that, eh, then why try?
• 33:49
  So it's, it's helping folks to.
• 33:53
  Notice and appreciate the small steps that they're taking to build a foundation
• 34:00
  of resilience, a resilient lifestyle that helps them optimize within their
• 34:05
  own unique context, if that makes sense.
• 34:07
  Rupert Isaacson: It does.
• 34:08
  Tell me about this chat from Boston and his relaxation technique,
• 34:12
  and why did you choose that?
• 34:13
  What, what, why do you feel that that is so effective?
• 34:17
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 34:17
  Yeah, so it's Herbert Benson's technique.
• 34:20
  Herbert Benson is unfortunately he's no longer alive, but he's a
• 34:24
  physician in Boston and developed this technique in the 1970s before
• 34:33
  meditation, mindfulness, and the name
• 34:35
  Rupert Isaacson: again?
• 34:36
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 34:36
  The relaxation response.
• 34:38
  Rupert Isaacson: The relaxation response.
• 34:40
  Okay.
• 34:40
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 34:40
  By Herbert Benson.
• 34:42
  Rupert Isaacson: And why do you hone in on this given that we live in an age of
• 34:45
  mindfulness and other things like that?
• 34:48
  Why, why that?
• 34:49
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 34:49
  Yeah.
• 34:50
  Well because it's, it's this technique is the cornerstone of
• 34:54
  the MINDBODY medicine program at Mass General Hospital in Boston.
• 34:58
  And that's where I did in addition to Shriners Hospital for Children in
• 35:02
  Boston, a lot of my early training,
• 35:05
  Rupert Isaacson: okay,
• 35:05
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 35:05
  so I had a lot of exposure to this technique, the research
• 35:10
  around this technique.
• 35:11
  So, you know, there are many ways to get there.
• 35:15
  It's just this technique is so efficient and effective and simple.
• 35:21
  That, that's why I gravitated towards it.
• 35:24
  Tell,
• 35:25
  Rupert Isaacson: tell us, how does one do it?
• 35:26
  What's the 1, 2, 3.
• 35:28
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 35:28
  So super easy, you come up with a word or a phrase that
• 35:31
  you find soothing in some way.
• 35:34
  You breathe,
• 35:34
  Rupert Isaacson: like cheers, for example.
• 35:36
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 35:36
  Yeah.
• 35:36
  Whatever.
• 35:37
  Whatever, whatever you, whatever's gonna be soothing.
• 35:41
  Okay.
• 35:41
  You know, you don't want it to be complicated and
• 35:43
  you breathe and you do too.
• 35:44
  Rupert Isaacson: How do you breathe?
• 35:46
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 35:46
  You breathe as you would normally breathe.
• 35:48
  You don't have to do anything.
• 35:50
  And that's why I like it.
• 35:51
  You don't have to be thinking about how you're breathing.
• 35:54
  You're just breathing.
• 35:56
  Rupert Isaacson: So let's try it now.
• 35:57
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  So I like horses for example.
• 35:58
  So if, if I'm feeling stressed and I think about horses, that's gonna be a
• 36:03
  little bit less stress than it would be if I didn't think about horses.
• 36:06
  So, would I say horses?
• 36:10
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:11
  Rupert Isaacson: And then what would I do?
• 36:14
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:14
  You would just sit here.
• 36:15
  Most people close their eyes.
• 36:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 36:17
  I'm gonna do it with you,
• 36:18
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:18
  okay?
• 36:19
  Okay?
• 36:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 36:22
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:22
  Okay.
• 36:22
  Now think of your word and just put that on slow, repeat and breathe
• 36:30
  Rupert Isaacson: forces.
• 36:32
  Horses
• 36:33
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:33
  and it's generally most effective in your mind.
• 36:36
  The words.
• 36:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
• 36:37
  I'm just,
• 36:38
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:38
  oh, yeah.
• 36:38
  Okay.
• 36:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Giving the running commentary.
• 36:40
  Okay.
• 36:41
  So, oh,
• 36:41
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:41
  got it.
• 36:41
  Okay.
• 36:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Let's assume I'm talking about horses here.
• 36:43
  Thinking horses.
• 36:52
  Okay.
• 36:54
  This actually is working.
• 36:56
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 36:56
  Yeah.
• 36:58
  Yeah.
• 36:58
  And so that's the thing, right?
• 37:00
  And so
• 37:00
  Rupert Isaacson: is it that simple?
• 37:02
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 37:02
  Yeah, it is.
• 37:03
  It really is.
• 37:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting.
• 37:04
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 37:04
  And, and the cool thing is you the more you practice for that five minutes in
• 37:09
  the morning, five minutes in the evening, this becomes somewhat of your baseline.
• 37:14
  You're integrating it into your baseline and it, so it's like a
• 37:18
  Rupert Isaacson: mantra.
• 37:19
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 37:19
  Effectively.
• 37:20
  Rupert Isaacson: It's
• 37:20
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 37:20
  Yes.
• 37:20
  Yes.
• 37:21
  With, with breath attached.
• 37:22
  And the cool thing is, and this works for a lot of, you
• 37:26
  know, most all of my clients.
• 37:28
  Also the younger athletes that I work with, they can
• 37:31
  keep it in their back pocket.
• 37:33
  And if they're entering into a stressful situation, a stressful medical
• 37:37
  appointment, a stressful conversation, a stressful sporting event, whatever,
• 37:42
  can kind of pull this out and do it for a minute or so to kind of level
• 37:46
  themselves before moving into that space.
• 37:49
  Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
• 37:52
  an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
• 37:59
  people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
• 38:04
  Are you a therapist?
• 38:05
  Are you a caregiver?
• 38:07
  Are you a parent?
• 38:08
  Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
• 38:12
  When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
• 38:17
  I really didn't know what to do.
• 38:18
  So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
• 38:24
  autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
• 38:27
  Temple Grandin.
• 38:28
  And she told me what to do.
• 38:29
  And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
• 38:34
  That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
• 38:39
  countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
• 38:43
  Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
• 38:48
  If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
• 38:52
  approach, it's called Movement Method.
• 38:55
  You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
• 38:59
  It's almost laughably simple.
• 39:02
  The important thing is to begin.
• 39:05
  Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
• 39:08
  Grandin and see what results can follow.
• 39:13
  Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
• 39:18
  com Sign up as a gold member.
• 39:21
  Take the online movement method course.
• 39:24
  It's in 40 countries.
• 39:26
  Let us know how it goes for you.
• 39:29
  We really want to know.
• 39:29
  We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
• 39:34
  live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
• 39:38
  Absolutely.
• 39:41
  I mean, some people might say, oh, money put me on, you know, which they say, you
• 39:45
  know, has all these, but I, you know, it is interesting that affirmations and
• 39:49
  mantras, I remember when I was growing up and despite the fact that I have long hair
• 39:53
  I'm not much of a hippie and, but I grew up very much in the seventies in England
• 39:59
  where a, it was a lot of hippie dump.
• 40:01
  Actually, it's wrong.
• 40:01
  I'm, I'm a card carrying hippie, but you know what I mean?
• 40:04
  I'm, I, I, I wasn't drawn to pop psychology or pop
• 40:09
  spirituality much, and so.
• 40:12
  We, one was brought up to dismiss that a little bit and be much more stoic.
• 40:17
  But there is no question that people have found mantras and affirmations
• 40:22
  really efficacious over millennia.
• 40:27
  Some people call it prayer, you know but I'd rather like the idea that instead
• 40:31
  of learning some word in Sanskrit or an affirmation that perhaps you don't
• 40:35
  fully believe because you know, if, if you are like loathing yourself
• 40:39
  or something, or in deep despair, if you say, well, I, I love myself.
• 40:43
  I actually do believe that if you say that enough, it actually does kick in.
• 40:46
  'cause I've been in situations where I've loathed myself and
• 40:49
  people have said, oh, try these.
• 40:51
  Affirmations I like.
• 40:53
  So your affirmations, you stick those, you know where you can imagine.
• 40:57
  But then I actually, of course had to try them, you know, and
• 40:59
  of course they actually worked.
• 41:01
  And then I realized, oh, I see actually I, I, I am a lot more
• 41:04
  plastic than I thought I was.
• 41:06
  But I like the idea of, of putting it in a language like that,
• 41:09
  that doesn't necessarily trigger somebody's, well, I'm not that sort
• 41:13
  of spiritual person type response.
• 41:14
  So we don't have to get over that obstacle and that hurdle in order
• 41:19
  to just find something effective.
• 41:22
  Okay, so there I am, I'm breathing, I'm thinking about horses and
• 41:25
  I'm, I'm feeling a bit better.
• 41:28
  What's my next step toward?
• 41:31
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 41:31
  So it depends.
• 41:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Resilience,
• 41:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 41:32
  it, it, it depends.
• 41:33
  But we wanna start integrating, you know, a little bit of joy,
• 41:39
  happiness, engaging in something that brings you that moment of.
• 41:45
  Levity of something beyond the challenge or the difficult situation that you're
• 41:50
  facing, or just the stress and overwhelm that you are experiencing, right?
• 41:56
  And that's a powerful, powerful thing because again, super simple, right?
• 42:01
  But so important because oftentimes challenge or not just in the context
• 42:07
  scope of our lives, we're moving so fast that we forget to laugh, we
• 42:12
  forget to find the joy in the small things, and it's really important.
• 42:18
  So give us an
• 42:19
  Rupert Isaacson: example.
• 42:19
  If someone's really low, I mean, one could get on Google and look up dad jokes.
• 42:24
  One could in my case, go swing my leg over a pony, but then perhaps I'm far from
• 42:30
  where the ponies are, so I can't do that.
• 42:32
  So what are the small, accessible joys that you feel you would
• 42:38
  normally suggest to people?
• 42:40
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 42:40
  So, you know, it can be as simple as turning on your favorite song.
• 42:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 42:45
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 42:45
  It can be as simple as going outside and sitting on the front stoop with
• 42:54
  your favorite hot cup of coffee or tea.
• 42:57
  It could be going into your garden and looking at a beautiful flower.
• 43:04
  You know, listening to the birds sing.
• 43:07
  Anything that's going to shift you to, oh, that's, you know, a wonderful sound
• 43:13
  or a pretty flower, something like that.
• 43:15
  Just those small moments.
• 43:17
  And then we can build from there.
• 43:19
  We can build into, Hmm, wow.
• 43:23
  I love to draw.
• 43:24
  Maybe I'll call my friend and have a conversation.
• 43:28
  You know, all of these things, if we think about doing them in an intentional way.
• 43:34
  It really does bring a moment of respite, joy, that sort of thing,
• 43:42
  into those points where we're feeling so bogged down and so overwhelmed.
• 43:47
  And I'm not trying to negate the challenges here because those are real,
• 43:50
  but it's really trying to take those intentional steps that are gonna give us
• 43:56
  at least a moment away from that space
• 43:58
  Rupert Isaacson: to truth.
• 43:58
  What do you do when people are in that state of despair and
• 44:01
  apathy which we know can overtake.
• 44:04
  And then also with people who say, well, I don't, I dunno what I
• 44:06
  like, I I don't know what I want.
• 44:09
  I'm, I'm quite lucky, like, you know, I know I like ponies, so even
• 44:12
  thinking about them is going to make me feel better to some degree.
• 44:15
  But not everyone, you know, I've encountered this.
• 44:17
  Not everyone actually does have that passion or, or know what their passion is.
• 44:21
  Some people might have forgotten, pushed it away.
• 44:23
  Other people, as you know, are so overwhelmed, so despairing
• 44:26
  that they fall into that apathy.
• 44:28
  So.
• 44:30
  Speak to that.
• 44:31
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 44:31
  Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 44:32
  And that's a great point because it's true, right?
• 44:35
  You could be either so deep in the apathy or you know, really be
• 44:39
  struggling with what those things are.
• 44:42
  So that's where, you know, that authentic human connection between me in my role
• 44:48
  as therapist or coach and client comes in and really taking the time to understand
• 44:56
  their experience, who they are, where they're coming from, where that the
• 45:01
  depth of that apathy is coming from.
• 45:03
  And then slowly over time helping them to, through conversation, through perhaps
• 45:12
  journaling or some personal exploration on some, some level kind of start to
• 45:18
  uncover, well, what are some things that maybe made me happy in the past?
• 45:23
  What are some things that, you know, I could envision.
• 45:29
  Re-engaging in, even if in a tiny, tiny way, because none of this,
• 45:33
  there's no on button for any of this.
• 45:36
  It's a process and there's no one way to do it.
• 45:39
  But it's slowly over time, building a sense of awareness of what those
• 45:45
  things are or were in the past.
• 45:48
  That's important to help people get in touch with.
• 45:51
  And that happens through that authentic human connection between
• 45:56
  therapist, coach, and client.
• 46:01
  Rupert Isaacson: You, you talked about maybe going out into the
• 46:04
  garden and looking at a flower or listening to the bird song.
• 46:09
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 46:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:11
  Rupert Isaacson: When I'm talking to therapists, unless they're coming
• 46:15
  from a particular angle, what often surprises me is how little in the
• 46:22
  clinical setting they talk about nature.
• 46:24
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 46:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:27
  Rupert Isaacson: You did just talk about nature, but I remember myself when I
• 46:30
  was going through some talk therapy and sitting in this office with the therapist
• 46:35
  and looking, hating it no movement.
• 46:40
  A room that well congenial enough was a room and the, you know, challenging
• 46:47
  frontal gaze of the therapist, you know, sparking my cortisol my stress.
• 46:54
  And I remember sort of looking out the window at the trees and thinking, gosh,
• 46:59
  if we were only walking out there under those, I would be feeling so much better.
• 47:04
  I'd be so much more receptive.
• 47:06
  And after, funnily enough, after a few sessions, I said to the therapist,
• 47:10
  could we not do this thing out there?
• 47:13
  And he came up with like a bazillion reasons why that would not be possible.
• 47:19
  And I said, look, you know, I actually know something about the brain.
• 47:22
  It's, it's.
• 47:23
  My job to, doesn't mean my brain is necessarily working very
• 47:26
  well, but I, I I do know sort of what it, what its needs are.
• 47:31
  Would you indulge me and then find, you know, still resisting?
• 47:36
  So I said, look, I'll pay you an extra hour, you know, that
• 47:40
  will cover the 10 minutes.
• 47:41
  It will take us to go down the stairs to go out there, blah,
• 47:45
  blah, and then to come back up.
• 47:46
  How about that?
• 47:48
  And with great reluctance, the therapist finally conceded, but
• 47:55
  wouldn't do it more than another time.
• 47:57
  And I realized that actually I needed then to find somebody
• 48:02
  who would take me into nature.
• 48:04
  So I did.
• 48:05
  But in the clinical setting, it's so not there.
• 48:10
  And yet that's our habitat.
• 48:12
  So how can we find wellbeing?
• 48:16
  Without that.
• 48:18
  And how do you incorporate that?
• 48:20
  Because I'm sure that when you are going into clinical settings,
• 48:24
  there are some constraints.
• 48:27
  How do you incorporate movement and nature?
• 48:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 48:32
  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a hard question, like when you can't
• 48:35
  get out of the clinical setting.
• 48:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:37
  Like, for example, with this therapist who is reluctant to,
• 48:41
  and, and sometimes there are, yeah.
• 48:43
  Constraints given the location of an office or that sort of thing.
• 48:48
  I personally do most of my work, all of my work actually right now virtually.
• 48:53
  So it's a question of what is available to the client, you know, where they
• 48:59
  are, you know, whether it's stepping out into the garden or, you know,
• 49:03
  so coming up with a plan as to what the possibilities are for them.
• 49:09
  But another, another space where I see this actually is when I'm working out at
• 49:15
  the Children's hospital with my dog you know, they have, I mean, very clinical
• 49:20
  setting inside the hospital obviously, but when a child is well enough to
• 49:27
  walk a little bit or perhaps they can go outside to the hospital garden in a
• 49:33
  wheelchair or something along those lines, those moments are very, very powerful.
• 49:39
  So, yeah, it's, mm, adapting with flexibility.
• 49:46
  Within the context of whatever, whatever that clinical setting is, to try to
• 49:50
  find options and opportunities and to encourage those if it's not top
• 49:55
  of mind for the patient or client.
• 49:58
  But yeah, there are those, those moments where perhaps it's less feasible.
• 50:02
  And then, you know, it's certainly not the same thing, but if nature, if a nature
• 50:10
  scene can be soothing to some, someone we can work with visualization around
• 50:17
  helping folks to engage through these images that they create in their mind.
• 50:24
  So that's, that's another opportunity.
• 50:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 50:27
  I'm glad.
• 50:27
  Well, I'm glad you bring that up because yeah, what we know that.
• 50:31
  Both negatively and positively, the mind will respond to the stimuli that don't
• 50:34
  necessarily have to be real, right?
• 50:36
  So the co the amygdala fight, flight freeze will re respond to
• 50:41
  a threat that's imagined almost as strongly as a threat that's real.
• 50:45
  But similarly, you know, in our work sometimes with what we call
• 50:49
  movement method, maybe we're working in schools and we'll look at a very
• 50:53
  sterile classroom and say, you need to bring a bunch of plants in here.
• 50:57
  You know, and then the, sometimes the school administration will
• 51:00
  say, well, here's a bazillion reasons why we can't do that.
• 51:03
  And usually it'll come down to like fire hazard and allergies and we,
• 51:07
  they'll die 'cause we can't water them.
• 51:09
  And so we thought, oh gosh, what are we gonna do about that?
• 51:11
  And we realized, oh, well then we just put fake plants in there.
• 51:15
  And because the brain, when you see the fake plants, basically responds the same.
• 51:19
  And we'll put pictures of nature on the wall and, and, and and we'll.
• 51:24
  And so I like the idea that you will also give people visualizations
• 51:28
  of nature because I, it would, it would seem that those
• 51:34
  play upon the mind in the same way largely that the real thing does.
• 51:38
  Do you get people who are so far removed from that, that they'll try to reject it?
• 51:46
  And if so, how do you help them with that?
• 51:50
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 51:50
  Yeah.
• 51:50
  You know, absolutely.
• 51:51
  You know, folks might not have experienced sort of the soothing
• 51:57
  impact of being out in nature or, you know, the, the, the positives around
• 52:02
  that, or perhaps it just hasn't been part of their life and experience so.
• 52:07
  What we can do is, you know, suggest, encourage, and try to
• 52:11
  build on that through that authentic connection right in mm-hmm.
• 52:16
  In the work that we're doing.
• 52:18
  But at the end of the day, we can't force it.
• 52:20
  No.
• 52:21
  But by building an awareness of the possibilities of the positive impact over
• 52:27
  time, you know, sometimes folks are able to, you know, shift gears and see things a
• 52:31
  little bit differently and then are often pleasantly surprised by the impact of
• 52:38
  engaging in that way, that kind of thing.
• 52:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a little suggestion can go a long way.
• 52:42
  It's true.
• 52:43
  And, and, and what people might resist at first, perhaps after they go away and
• 52:49
  have a bit of a think even, or not even a think, just their subconscious gets going.
• 52:53
  You mentioned you use your dog, you bring your dog into these clinical settings.
• 52:57
  So for me, that is nature, right?
• 52:58
  The animal is automatically nature.
• 53:01
  Yeah.
• 53:01
  You know?
• 53:01
  Yeah.
• 53:01
  So by bringing a dog into a sterile hospital walk, you have effect, you
• 53:06
  brought in the forest, you know?
• 53:07
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 53:07
  Yes.
• 53:07
  Rupert Isaacson: What gave you that idea and Yeah.
• 53:10
  How did you develop it?
• 53:11
  Yeah,
• 53:12
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 53:12
  yeah, yeah.
• 53:13
  So you're right.
• 53:13
  I mean, it's incredibly powerful.
• 53:15
  It's, it's, it's awesome.
• 53:16
  It's, it's really, really meaningful to me as well.
• 53:19
  And I had always wanted to train a dog that I had for this purpose.
• 53:27
  And I think it goes way back to my early childhood when I would sit with
• 53:32
  my dog, peanut for hours, hours as I was, you know, maybe recovering
• 53:39
  from a shunt revision or, oh.
• 53:41
  Or So your dog
• 53:42
  Rupert Isaacson: had a big part of your recovery.
• 53:44
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 53:44
  Yes, abs a hundred percent.
• 53:46
  And so that I think is where the idea first came.
• 53:53
  You know, I was really, I mean obviously it was subconscious at that point,
• 53:56
  you know, when I was four I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm gonna train my dog
• 53:59
  to go to the hospital to visit kids.
• 54:01
  But that's really where the idea first formed, I'm sure of it.
• 54:07
  Because I would sit for hours with her and she would really be
• 54:11
  a primary support in helping me through some very difficult moments.
• 54:15
  So there was, so there was that.
• 54:17
  And then, you know, when we got Wally, who is my certified therapy dog to go out
• 54:23
  and work on this, on this animal assisted team, he, his disposition just felt right.
• 54:31
  And I also had an opportunity arise, right.
• 54:36
  When we got him to join a group of join a group where we were
• 54:41
  starting to do the basic obedience for this exact kind of work.
• 54:45
  And so I joined them and it was just, it was awesome.
• 54:48
  Like he, he took to it, you know, got all the obedience down.
• 54:52
  We worked in assisted living facilities for a year because he
• 54:57
  had to be two before he was ready to be eligible for children's.
• 55:01
  And it just evolved from there.
• 55:03
  And it's really, if not the most, one of the most meaningful things I do right now.
• 55:11
  I love my work with him out at the hospital.
• 55:13
  It's, it's so powerful to see a child who's struggling with
• 55:18
  whatever it might be, light up when they see the dog walk in.
• 55:24
  Or the child who's struggling with physical therapy at the end of a hall
• 55:28
  and really is, is not, not wanting to engage and not physically believing.
• 55:35
  They're able to engage, but then pointing at Wally and saying, I wanna pet the dog.
• 55:40
  And
• 55:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 55:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 55:42
  We stay at the other end of the hall and the child does it, you
• 55:46
  know, they, they, they walk down the hall so that they can pet the dog.
• 55:49
  It's, it's so they can pet wally.
• 55:52
  It's it's really powerful stuff and it's, it's,
• 55:54
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I mean that sort of motivation and of course
• 55:56
  the moment you, you are caressing another mammal your pet, you are of
• 56:01
  course getting oxytocin, you know?
• 56:03
  Yeah.
• 56:03
  We know this, you know but it's, and that's, you know, obviously one of
• 56:06
  the most healthful hormones we can have coursing through our bodies.
• 56:10
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 56:10
  A hundred percent.
• 56:11
  Yes.
• 56:11
  Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
• 56:12
  Where did you discover, I mean obviously you had your own experience
• 56:14
  with this when you were a kid, but when did you discover the sort of more
• 56:18
  formalized world of animal assisted.
• 56:21
  Therapies and hey, how did you get involved in that?
• 56:24
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 56:24
  Yeah, it's a great question.
• 56:26
  You know, so I did all of my early training as a psychologist out in
• 56:31
  hospitals in Boston some of the bigger hospitals, mass General Shriners Hospital
• 56:36
  for Children, Beth Israel Deaconess, and all of those places had, it was
• 56:41
  much, it was almost 20 years ago now.
• 56:44
  So animal assisted therapy wasn't quite.
• 56:48
  As prominent and as prevalent as it is today.
• 56:50
  But it was there, it was around.
• 56:52
  And so I'd always kind of observe and watch and Hmm, that's so cool.
• 56:56
  You know, and I would see the impact that the dogs were having
• 56:59
  for patients and, and such.
• 57:01
  So I think you know, I started learning about it at that point.
• 57:05
  And then, you know, we moved a lot with my husband's job and I, it, the
• 57:08
  timing just wasn't quite right for me to get actively involved until about
• 57:14
  four years ago when we got Wally.
• 57:16
  And I had the time, I had the puppy and I had the strong desire to make this real.
• 57:23
  So that's kind of how that happens.
• 57:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Do have you developed it since then?
• 57:29
  Are you part of any kind of group and when you're talking to parents
• 57:34
  that are looking for resilience, do you guide them towards animals?
• 57:39
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 57:39
  Well, yeah, absolutely.
• 57:40
  I mean, you know.
• 57:42
  I don't know if I really guide them towards animals, but, well,
• 57:45
  actually, first, to answer your first question, I, I am part of a
• 57:48
  group a certification organization called a TD American Therapy Dogs.
• 57:54
  Okay.
• 57:54
  And they certify us.
• 57:56
  They're many groups out there, but that's the one that
• 57:58
  certifies for, that certifies me.
• 58:01
  And so there's a whole group of us here in Seattle that's part of that organization.
• 58:05
  So that piece is pretty fun.
• 58:06
  And we'll go out and do things together in schools and stuff like that.
• 58:10
  But you know, I don't necessarily direct folks clients outside of the
• 58:18
  hospital setting towards animals, but most of my clients have animals.
• 58:23
  And we do talk about the soothing, kind of relation aspect of the
• 58:27
  relationship and that sort of thing.
• 58:30
  But I will tell you that when I'm out in the hospital with Wally.
• 58:34
  You know, if a child is not really up for a visit or in a procedure,
• 58:40
  but the parent is there, I mean, they always run out into the hall to
• 58:44
  hang out with Wally for a little bit.
• 58:46
  I mean, so it's very, very powerful what he's bringing to
• 58:50
  them in addition to the, the kids.
• 58:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Why do animals make us more resilient?
• 58:57
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 58:57
  Well, you know, I think it's because honestly, they're in the moment.
• 59:02
  They're showing up unconditionally.
• 59:05
  They're there for you and they're not thinking about what's just
• 59:09
  happened or what's gonna happen.
• 59:12
  They're in it, you know, and they're so well able to, I believe, pick
• 59:21
  up on, what somebody's emotional condition is in the moment.
• 59:26
  You know, I know that I feel it with, with Wally and me, you know, if I'm,
• 59:31
  you know, stressed or struggling with something on a given day, you know,
• 59:35
  he'll come up and, you know, well maybe put his head on my, on my on my lap.
• 59:40
  But like, if I am, you know, in a different space, you know,
• 59:45
  he'll, he'll respond differently.
• 59:47
  And I see he'll respond differently depending on what's happening for kids.
• 59:53
  He's visiting in the hospital too.
• 59:55
  If he notices that a kid is really withdrawn or struggling with something,
• 1:00:00
  he'll literally come in and pop his head on their knee, for example.
• 1:00:06
  Whereas if a kid is, you know, smiling and saying, come here, come here.
• 1:00:11
  You know, he'll go in a bit more robustly.
• 1:00:14
  He'll offer them his paw.
• 1:00:16
  You know, it's just these, these, these subtle, subtle differences,
• 1:00:19
  subtle shifts in how he's showing up.
• 1:00:22
  But the, the fact is, the bottom line is animals always show up.
• 1:00:28
  And I really do think that they're able to, to discern
• 1:00:32
  what we need in given moments.
• 1:00:34
  And they're not bogged down by like the baggage of what's happened or the
• 1:00:39
  fear and worry about what's coming.
• 1:00:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that we, on a, on a subconscious level, just take that
• 1:00:45
  on so that by seeing the animal constantly showing up, it allows us to show up?
• 1:00:50
  It teaches us or shows us how to show up?
• 1:00:54
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:00:54
  Oh, I think so.
• 1:00:55
  Yes.
• 1:00:56
  I think for sure, particularly in those moments.
• 1:00:59
  And then if we're able to take that a step further and really recognize
• 1:01:05
  what's happening, then that can be a really powerful reminder to us.
• 1:01:11
  To show up even when the animal isn't present, if that makes sense.
• 1:01:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:01:17
  No, I do.
• 1:01:17
  And I, you know, our, our minds are so open to metaphor.
• 1:01:21
  Metaphor is the, is the human thing really, isn't it?
• 1:01:23
  The storytelling ape.
• 1:01:25
  I think it's worth considering this thing that yeah, animals sort of
• 1:01:28
  lead by example, but that we do actually follow those examples.
• 1:01:32
  And I, I guess our, our language is sort of peppered with metaphors and sayings
• 1:01:39
  of one kind or another adjectives, you know, that, that describe being like
• 1:01:43
  this animal or being like that animal.
• 1:01:45
  And sometimes it's negative, you know, you dirty pig or whatever you swine.
• 1:01:49
  But although actually pigs are so charming, it's, it's always
• 1:01:52
  struck me as an odd one, that one.
• 1:01:54
  But normally we use animal stuff quite positively.
• 1:02:00
  It seems.
• 1:02:01
  Okay, so you, let's just go back to your book and your, and your practice.
• 1:02:05
  You, you give people these relaxation techniques to get
• 1:02:09
  them to a sort of calm baseline.
• 1:02:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:11
  You, you give them the visualizations some of which involve nature.
• 1:02:17
  You have your own practice of course, which does involve animal assisted
• 1:02:21
  going through your book Now, what's the next stage in resilience, parenting?
• 1:02:26
  Here I am, you know, feeling un resilient in my parenting moment.
• 1:02:30
  And sometimes I still do, you know, despite the fact that my son's doing
• 1:02:33
  really well, and so I'm not always feeling resilient, you know, so of
• 1:02:37
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:02:37
  course
• 1:02:38
  Rupert Isaacson: what's, what's, what's the next stage?
• 1:02:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:02:42
  And that's, and that's a great point that you mentioned, you
• 1:02:44
  know, 'cause 'cause it's true.
• 1:02:45
  'cause we're not always feeling resilient, even if we're building, you know?
• 1:02:49
  Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  These skills into our life and experience on a foundational level, they're
• 1:02:54
  gonna be moments when we don't feel.
• 1:02:57
  Resilient.
• 1:02:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes
• 1:02:58
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:02:58
  more than
• 1:02:59
  Rupert Isaacson: moments.
• 1:02:59
  Yes.
• 1:02:59
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:02:59
  Well, exactly.
• 1:03:00
  Exactly.
• 1:03:00
  Yes.
• 1:03:01
  Yes.
• 1:03:01
  Sometimes more than moments.
• 1:03:02
  And trust me, I, I, I get this.
• 1:03:04
  Yeah.
• 1:03:04
  And, and so, you know, it's, it's a question of really
• 1:03:07
  building these things in.
• 1:03:08
  So you mentioned some of the, some of the key ones.
• 1:03:11
  You know, the, the nature piece, the visualizations, the
• 1:03:14
  managing our stress response.
• 1:03:16
  You know, we're encouraging folks to have some sort of social support.
• 1:03:23
  We know the power of social support in building our resilience,
• 1:03:27
  our resilient lifestyle.
• 1:03:30
  You know, whether that looks like can, because you see the thing is with
• 1:03:34
  social connection, we can be moving.
• 1:03:36
  Through life so fast, we can be bogged down.
• 1:03:39
  We can be overwhelmed that we just think, Hmm, it's not important.
• 1:03:42
  I don't have time.
• 1:03:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:03:43
  Really it is important to intentionally try to carve out that time, make
• 1:03:50
  some sort of connection as often as possible to have that, that
• 1:03:56
  context of social support in place.
• 1:03:58
  You know, whether it's a phone call to an old friend or if it's a coffee
• 1:04:04
  at the local coffee shop with an acquaintance or a friend, whether it's
• 1:04:08
  joining a group, a parent parenting group related to a challenge that you're
• 1:04:14
  having or a hobby or something fun.
• 1:04:16
  You know, I've got a group of friends who gets together on Sunday
• 1:04:21
  mornings and I'm often not able to join, but to go hiking or walking
• 1:04:26
  their parents from the same school.
• 1:04:28
  You know, it's that kind of a thing just to kind of have that connection.
• 1:04:33
  However you're gonna get in touch with it is really powerful in
• 1:04:38
  terms of normalizing the fact that, yeah, life isn't easy necessarily.
• 1:04:44
  Things get hard, and that's okay.
• 1:04:48
  And here's what helped me.
• 1:04:49
  And not that there's a one size fits all, but having ideas and thoughts around it.
• 1:04:54
  So, so social support, social connection is a really important piece of, of
• 1:04:58
  what we talk about in here as well.
• 1:05:01
  Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
• 1:05:04
  guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
• 1:05:09
  just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
• 1:05:13
  about the relationship with nature.
• 1:05:17
  Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
• 1:05:21
  And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
• 1:05:24
  If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
• 1:05:28
  you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
• 1:05:34
  and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
• 1:05:39
  what started Live Free Ride Free.
• 1:05:41
  And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
• 1:05:44
  Land, which tells the story of.
• 1:05:48
  My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
• 1:05:53
  there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
• 1:05:57
  Come on that adventure with me.
• 1:05:59
  Now let's talk about crisis.
• 1:06:01
  So there are times when things become so pressing that or
• 1:06:06
  everything goes outta the window.
• 1:06:07
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:06:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:07
  Rupert Isaacson: And one hasn't the bandwidth for anything
• 1:06:09
  other than straight up survival.
• 1:06:12
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:06:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:12
  Rupert Isaacson: When people are in that kind of mode.
• 1:06:15
  Again, what are your recommendations?
• 1:06:18
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:06:18
  We wanna make sure that they understand when it's necessary to elicit professional
• 1:06:24
  support, you know, or, you know, call 9 1 1 or go to a local emergency room
• 1:06:30
  if we're in that level of crisis.
• 1:06:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:06:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:06:32
  But if it's, if it's not at that point, but rather a point where folks
• 1:06:40
  are so bogged down, so overwhelmed that there's really not any bandwidth
• 1:06:44
  for anything else, it's a question of doing the best they can in those
• 1:06:51
  moments to move forward or just be as best they can without, without that
• 1:07:01
  added stress of, well, I should be doing this, I have to be doing that.
• 1:07:05
  Sometimes we just need to be, so there's that.
• 1:07:10
  Not putting that external pressure on them, you know, internal pressure
• 1:07:14
  or going for, like, I have to do more if, if in that moment they just can't.
• 1:07:18
  But I wanna, you know, make sure that folks are aware that, you know, there
• 1:07:23
  are those moments where they should, you know, go to a local emergency room
• 1:07:28
  or call 9 1 1, that kind of thing.
• 1:07:30
  But I don't know, does that answer the, the question?
• 1:07:33
  Because there are,
• 1:07:33
  Rupert Isaacson: well, yeah, I'm, I'm just wondering if whe because you know,
• 1:07:36
  when, when once amygdala is really activated while it's full of cortisol
• 1:07:40
  or it's not capable of rational thought.
• 1:07:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:07:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And you can be highly intelligent, highly educated.
• 1:07:47
  Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  And behave like an absolute idiot because the neurotoxins in your
• 1:07:54
  brain with the cortisol are simply preventing you from reasoning.
• 1:07:57
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:07:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you have
• 1:08:01
  things that help in that mode?
• 1:08:04
  To sort of bring one back to oneself so that one can actually figure one one's
• 1:08:10
  way through and get out of reaction.
• 1:08:14
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:08:14
  Well, you know, it's, it's managing the stress response on a consistent basis that
• 1:08:19
  we uhhuh come back to in those moments.
• 1:08:21
  That really is kind of leveling out.
• 1:08:24
  But, you know, if somebody is in a space where, you know, they're, they're so
• 1:08:31
  far escalated, so escalated to the point of shutdown, you know, the, the reality
• 1:08:38
  is it's gonna take a little bit more to get back to that modulated space.
• 1:08:42
  But that's the, that's the first go-to, to get back to that modulated space.
• 1:08:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  If, if you yourself are driven to the wall, I'm sure it's happens occasionally.
• 1:08:56
  What's your.
• 1:08:58
  Go to.
• 1:09:00
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:09:00
  Yeah, that's a great a great, great question.
• 1:09:03
  And it's true, you know, sometimes I am bogged down and driven to the wall.
• 1:09:07
  So it depends.
• 1:09:09
  Sometimes it's getting out for a long walk.
• 1:09:11
  Sometimes it's, don't move
• 1:09:13
  Rupert Isaacson: it again,
• 1:09:13
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:09:13
  nature again.
• 1:09:13
  Yep, yep.
• 1:09:14
  Nature movement.
• 1:09:16
  Sometimes it's jumping on my bike.
• 1:09:18
  But if I've been super active and I've put a large number of miles in
• 1:09:23
  on my bike or a large number of miles on walk-in and, and I know that my
• 1:09:29
  body is a little bit exhausted too.
• 1:09:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 1:09:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:09:32
  I might take a nap.
• 1:09:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:09:33
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:09:33
  I might tune out with my favorite podcast or something along those lines.
• 1:09:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:09:40
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:09:40
  You know, I might kind of do something like that.
• 1:09:43
  So it kind of is situationally dependent, but oftentimes
• 1:09:48
  there's movement, there's nature.
• 1:09:50
  But sometimes there's an app.
• 1:09:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, but yeah, I think what you just described there, so if you
• 1:09:56
  have, if one's all pent up that desire or, or, or the ameliorative effect
• 1:10:04
  of really hard exercise, okay, then we're gonna get some neuroplasticity.
• 1:10:08
  That's going to create a brain change, right?
• 1:10:11
  But then also of course, we're gonna end up with happy hormones.
• 1:10:16
  We're gonna end up with endorphins that are going to
• 1:10:20
  allow us then to pause and reset.
• 1:10:22
  That's the nap.
• 1:10:24
  And then that's a reset of the nervous system.
• 1:10:28
  Meanwhile, because you just did that hard exercise, that neuroplasticity has
• 1:10:33
  a certain knock on, carry on effect.
• 1:10:35
  So even while you're napping or tuning out to that podcast that neuroplasticity sort
• 1:10:40
  of keeps, keeps going, and then you can sort of come out of that at the other end.
• 1:10:47
  With a bit of a different brain.
• 1:10:48
  But I, I, so I think what you just described is very sound from a,
• 1:10:52
  from a neurological point of view.
• 1:10:54
  It's just that, you know, I think a lot of people don't
• 1:10:56
  necessarily have access to that.
• 1:10:57
  And it interesting you talk about napping because in the stoic school of Wasp
• 1:11:02
  fish culture, we're not supposed to nap.
• 1:11:04
  That's a sign of weakness.
• 1:11:05
  You know, we're supposed to flog ourselves and keep going
• 1:11:08
  and keep going and keep going.
• 1:11:09
  And this, I, you, you might be aware of what Google apparently used to call
• 1:11:14
  on in its campus 20% time, apparently.
• 1:11:18
  Back in the early days people employed on the campus would be
• 1:11:22
  allowed to spend 20% of their day not working because it was known.
• 1:11:27
  Among the upper management, that it was in that sort of daydreaming
• 1:11:30
  time or doing something else that people came up with their best ideas
• 1:11:34
  and those ideas belong to Google.
• 1:11:36
  So you could sort of do anything that you wanted to and apparently
• 1:11:38
  that's how Gmail came into being.
• 1:11:41
  But I guess what you're really talking about there to some
• 1:11:43
  degree is also myelination.
• 1:11:44
  Right?
• 1:11:45
  So, you know, myelin being the fatty tissue that grows around new neuron
• 1:11:52
  connections when they're made, which are a bit fragile to begin with, you know?
• 1:11:56
  And then as we rest that fatty tissue, like a sort of insulation cable.
• 1:12:02
  Comes around them and then makes them secure, and then
• 1:12:05
  we've got a new neural pathway.
• 1:12:07
  Without that nap, it's very difficult for those neurons to remain connected.
• 1:12:14
  And so what we learned, or so it might, we might forget it, we might lose it.
• 1:12:20
  How do you deal with when people are very, very resistant to the idea of the nap?
• 1:12:25
  I'm a great believer in it, but I'm a late comer to it.
• 1:12:28
  You know, I, I, for years would never allow myself to, and I remember people
• 1:12:32
  sort of trying to encourage me to do that, and I'd absolutely blow that out away.
• 1:12:36
  And then I realized that that was just really stupid.
• 1:12:39
  But, you know, this is in our culture,
• 1:12:41
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:12:41
  Right.
• 1:12:42
  Rupert Isaacson: The workaholic, the, the, the self martyrdom, all that.
• 1:12:45
  How do you help people through that?
• 1:12:47
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:12:47
  Yeah, it's, it's again, it's an important question and no one size fits all, per se.
• 1:12:53
  I, I have been slow to come to the nap too, because, you know, you always
• 1:12:57
  just wanna be moving forward and Wow.
• 1:12:59
  What do you, what does that mean?
• 1:13:00
  But I have felt the power, the benefits in it.
• 1:13:03
  Yeah.
• 1:13:04
  My husband's always been a napper, you know, and so it's, it's so fascinating.
• 1:13:08
  Right.
• 1:13:08
  And to recognize, yeah.
• 1:13:11
  Wow.
• 1:13:12
  Okay.
• 1:13:12
  So that was a great thing that he was doing as opposed to,
• 1:13:16
  why are you napping so much?
• 1:13:18
  This, you know, it's like, whatcha doing?
• 1:13:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you have to write him an apology letter now for all the
• 1:13:21
  times that you ed on him for napping?
• 1:13:24
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:13:24
  I think, I think I was able to apologize verbally.
• 1:13:27
  It was fine, but Yeah, no, it, we laugh about that.
• 1:13:30
  It's pretty funny.
• 1:13:31
  But, you know, again, it's, it's kind of trying to introduce the potential
• 1:13:36
  benefits and recognizing that, you know.
• 1:13:40
  All of these shifts, all of these changes that folks make have
• 1:13:44
  to come from the inside out.
• 1:13:46
  So it's educating, it's giving examples of, you know, why this
• 1:13:52
  could be beneficial and encouraging folks to try it in small bites.
• 1:13:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:58
  And seeing what happens.
• 1:13:59
  Because we like to have folks integrate changes which feel daunting or
• 1:14:04
  overwhelming, or like, they're not aligned in small bite-size pieces so
• 1:14:10
  that they can integrate them over time because the, there's no button that
• 1:14:16
  they can push to be like, oh, I can feel the benefits of a nap and I'm a napper
• 1:14:20
  now, you know, that kind of a thing.
• 1:14:21
  So yeah, it's a process.
• 1:14:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:14:26
  What, what is the number one biggest hurdle to resilience that you see?
• 1:14:33
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:14:33
  You know, it's.
• 1:14:35
  Folks having trouble slowing down to the point of understanding what they need
• 1:14:46
  to be at their best, what they need to optimize their overall sense of wellbeing.
• 1:14:54
  So it's a process to help folks to slow down and kind of explore what those
• 1:15:04
  things are and then integrate them over time to build that sense of awareness
• 1:15:09
  of what they need to be at their best.
• 1:15:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:14
  The slowing down again.
• 1:15:15
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:15:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:15:16
  The breathing, the perspective.
• 1:15:18
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:15:18
  Yes.
• 1:15:19
  And, and yes, the perspective and creating that space to gain perspective
• 1:15:26
  and to even gain perspective on what it looks like to be at your best.
• 1:15:32
  Sometimes we're so used to functioning in a suboptimal place that we don't
• 1:15:37
  recognize that there's more is possible.
• 1:15:41
  You know,
• 1:15:42
  Rupert Isaacson: it's true.
• 1:15:42
  We get very used to existing in that sort of cortisol state.
• 1:15:45
  We're good at it.
• 1:15:46
  I mean, I guess we are resilient.
• 1:15:48
  Yes.
• 1:15:48
  Humans are resilient.
• 1:15:50
  Uhhuh, do you, okay, so just bring it back to parenting.
• 1:15:56
  So
• 1:16:00
  in an ideal world, we have two parents but those two parents
• 1:16:04
  are not always on the same page.
• 1:16:07
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:16:07
  Right.
• 1:16:07
  Rupert Isaacson: When the parents are beginning to battle about
• 1:16:11
  the best way forward for a child this of course can escalate it.
• 1:16:20
  Yeah.
• 1:16:20
  We don't need to say much more.
• 1:16:24
  I should imagine a certain, you know, a fair amount of
• 1:16:26
  your work is dealing with this
• 1:16:30
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:16:30
  mm-hmm.
• 1:16:30
  Rupert Isaacson: In your book, how do you help people through that?
• 1:16:34
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:16:34
  Well, you
• 1:16:35
  Rupert Isaacson: know, apart from just telling them to
• 1:16:36
  go to counseling, you know?
• 1:16:39
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:16:39
  Right.
• 1:16:39
  Yeah.
• 1:16:40
  You know, so it's, well, so the book has case examples throughout
• 1:16:45
  to illustrate main points.
• 1:16:47
  Okay.
• 1:16:47
  And so in the scenario that you just described, communication is key, right.
• 1:16:54
  And not always easy, right?
• 1:16:56
  Well, yes.
• 1:16:57
  Not always easy.
• 1:16:58
  In a perfect world, yes.
• 1:16:59
  Communication between the spouses that are the two parents that are not on the same
• 1:17:05
  page in terms of the best way forward.
• 1:17:09
  So we encourage communication to, to the.
• 1:17:13
  Extent possible.
• 1:17:15
  We also recognize that we're gonna have different ways, perhaps, of viewing things
• 1:17:20
  that might cause tension, angst difficult relationships to get more difficult.
• 1:17:25
  But one thing that's really important is to mm, try to work those differences out.
• 1:17:31
  Come to a, a, a common understanding away from the children.
• 1:17:36
  So not being, not having those difficult discussions in front of the kids.
• 1:17:40
  And also then trying to help each parent to understand the
• 1:17:49
  other a little bit more fully.
• 1:17:51
  Except that we might have different ways of looking at things and what's the middle
• 1:17:57
  ground, you know, those types of things.
• 1:17:59
  It's, it's a process.
• 1:18:00
  There's no one size fits all, and there's no one perfect answer.
• 1:18:05
  But it's really coming up with a compromise, a middle ground between
• 1:18:10
  the different ways of looking at things and going from there.
• 1:18:14
  And that really happens through a willingness to listen and try
• 1:18:20
  to understand the other person and accept that there's more than
• 1:18:26
  one way to make something happen.
• 1:18:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you give people techniques for that listening?
• 1:18:33
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:18:33
  You know, it's listening.
• 1:18:36
  It's sometimes journaling on our response to our.
• 1:18:43
  Spouse or our co-parents or whatever, their way of doing things, they're kind
• 1:18:48
  of thoughts about how something should be.
• 1:18:51
  The other thing that's really important, and not to be a broken record on this,
• 1:18:55
  but to be showing up in that level space to be modulating our stress,
• 1:19:00
  our stress response, and to try to show up in an optimized space, in
• 1:19:08
  an optimized way ourselves, so that we're better able to engage in these
• 1:19:15
  conversations, in these discussions, in these areas, which are more challenging.
• 1:19:22
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, someone once gave me a really good technique, which was
• 1:19:28
  helpful to me when I was in a situation where I, I, I, I was finding it very
• 1:19:32
  hard to listen, and the other person was finding it very hard to listen to me.
• 1:19:36
  And you know that that's not optimal, but things have just moved to a point where,
• 1:19:42
  boy, and what they said to me was, ask yourself, where's the awesome in this?
• 1:19:52
  And like, just from a purely selfish perspective, where is the
• 1:19:59
  op hidden opportunity here for me?
• 1:20:03
  Even amid, among this hostility where it seems that you are not
• 1:20:09
  there, there, there is no opportunity other than to try and survive it.
• 1:20:14
  But just to ask that question, is it possible that there is something, there's
• 1:20:21
  some little golden nugget in here that is actually a key to my own freedom.
• 1:20:28
  And if so.
• 1:20:30
  Should I not listen quite closely to see if that's there?
• 1:20:34
  And that made perfect sense to me.
• 1:20:36
  It was funny, it, it, of all the things that I was told,
• 1:20:40
  that one really resonated.
• 1:20:42
  I think partly because also I have a background of living with
• 1:20:45
  hunting and gathering people and this idea of tracking.
• 1:20:47
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:20:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:20:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Constantly tracking.
• 1:20:50
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:20:50
  Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  Rupert Isaacson: But it's very hard to track Well, if you're upset 'cause
• 1:20:53
  you're not following the signs.
• 1:20:54
  Yeah.
• 1:20:55
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:20:55
  Right, right.
• 1:20:55
  Rupert Isaacson: So just to stop and ask oneself that, and that became
• 1:20:59
  a habit which I then found helpful.
• 1:21:02
  But, you know, by no means foolproof, but it definitely helped me avoid
• 1:21:09
  falling into cycles of conflict or bitterness or, knee jerky sort.
• 1:21:16
  Well, all like, so you have your knee jerk, but then you have your paws and
• 1:21:20
  your, but it, it, it, it, it was that piece of advice that, that, that helped.
• 1:21:26
  I wonder if that's similar to perhaps your
• 1:21:29
  your thinking of the word that brings you pleasure and joy.
• 1:21:34
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:21:34
  Hmm.
• 1:21:34
  Rupert Isaacson: And thinking of the thing that brings you pleasure and joy.
• 1:21:37
  That it allows you a moment of perspective.
• 1:21:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:21:42
  Yes.
• 1:21:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Which is very difficult to do when the adrenaline is rising.
• 1:21:46
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:21:46
  Yeah.
• 1:21:47
  Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless, if, if that's a sort of a muscle one can
• 1:21:51
  exercise and strengthen to some degree a sort of response, a neurological response,
• 1:21:56
  one can almost like a muscle memory.
• 1:21:59
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:21:59
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:59
  Yeah.
• 1:22:00
  Because creating that space, that perspective allows us.
• 1:22:05
  To respond as opposed to react, particularly when
• 1:22:08
  we're on different pages.
• 1:22:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
• 1:22:11
  And it's so funny, you know, I can, I can catch myself sometimes in the sort
• 1:22:16
  of everyday stuff that goes on thinking, oh, I didn't do that there, I didn't,
• 1:22:22
  I didn't have that pause between my reaction and my response or so, you
• 1:22:28
  know, that if I had only just paused a moment and separated myself for only a
• 1:22:34
  nanosecond from the reaction, then my response would've been so much better.
• 1:22:41
  But I suppose at least I do think those things these days, whereas
• 1:22:43
  in the old days, I wouldn't have thought about that at all.
• 1:22:46
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:22:46
  Right, right.
• 1:22:47
  And it's, it's a process, right?
• 1:22:48
  And so shifting in that, yeah.
• 1:22:50
  Direction, I love it.
• 1:22:51
  Cool.
• 1:22:52
  Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I think that's the important thing about a, a book
• 1:22:54
  like yours in that it does give people chance to bring their attention there.
• 1:23:01
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:23:01
  Yes.
• 1:23:01
  Rupert Isaacson: What is it they say in law of attraction?
• 1:23:03
  You know, energy goes where attention flows, where attention goes or, or
• 1:23:07
  something like that, that you know, when you put your eyes on a particular
• 1:23:10
  path, that's inevitably where you'll sort of end up walking towards.
• 1:23:15
  I dunno if you're familiar with Neville Godard.
• 1:23:17
  The the, he was a sort of a,
• 1:23:22
  before new age existed, sort of back in the forties and fifties, he was
• 1:23:29
  a bit of a guru who interpreted it through a very Christian scripture
• 1:23:34
  sort of lens and very much sort of early law of attraction stuff.
• 1:23:39
  And he would say that in the Bible, when they say you to turn the other cheek,
• 1:23:44
  if you're slapped, is not to be a pussy.
• 1:23:46
  It's to simply.
• 1:23:48
  If you don't like what you're seeing over there, turn literally your gaze
• 1:23:53
  over there to something that you do like and go in that direction.
• 1:23:58
  'cause as long as you're looking at the thing you don't like,
• 1:24:01
  that's where you're gonna be going.
• 1:24:03
  And I do wonder if that technique that you were talking about earlier in the
• 1:24:07
  conversation is really a version of that.
• 1:24:10
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:24:10
  Very possible.
• 1:24:11
  You know, I think it's at the core to kind of calm the central nervous system,
• 1:24:16
  but in a sense yeah, shifting our focus calming the central nervous system
• 1:24:21
  in a way that allows us to shift our focus in a more productive or optimal
• 1:24:28
  direction, I think is what I would say.
• 1:24:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:24:32
  If you have a hope for your book and the work that you do with,
• 1:24:38
  with parenting, what would you say?
• 1:24:41
  I mean, apart from obviously ameliorating suffering, but.
• 1:24:48
  What, what would you say your mission is with this?
• 1:24:53
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:24:53
  Yeah, so with this, my, my primary mission is to really help folks to
• 1:24:59
  appreciate their own unique context.
• 1:25:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:25:02
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:25:02
  Without falling into, you know, the comparison trap or vibe.
• 1:25:06
  And within that context, be able to create create a roadmap
• 1:25:13
  for how to be at their best.
• 1:25:16
  And then from there, believe in the possibility that's out there
• 1:25:21
  for them and for their children.
• 1:25:23
  On the other side of the challenges that are inevitably gonna come up.
• 1:25:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:25:27
  So a lot of it's about imagining what, what good looks like, perhaps
• 1:25:33
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:25:33
  Well.
• 1:25:34
  Yes.
• 1:25:35
  Creating a map for what good looks like and then moving intentionally towards,
• 1:25:41
  Rupert Isaacson: and how do you create that map?
• 1:25:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:25:42
  Well, you create that map by really being intentional by, you know, increasing your
• 1:25:51
  sense of awareness through conversations with a coach or a therapist, or
• 1:25:56
  journaling, or really taking the time to sit down and think about, Hmm, what
• 1:26:02
  are the things that make me feel good?
• 1:26:06
  What do I want my life to look like?
• 1:26:07
  How might I be able to create that?
• 1:26:10
  And my book kind of creates a, is is a catalyst for that kind of a process.
• 1:26:16
  Kind of like a, a playbook, so to speak, for folks to start thinking about these
• 1:26:20
  things and create that foundation for, for optimizing their own sense of wellbeing.
• 1:26:28
  And in doing that, helping their, their children and families to do the same.
• 1:26:33
  Rupert Isaacson: What are the building blocks of that?
• 1:26:35
  Like, do, is it vision boarding?
• 1:26:36
  Is it visualizations?
• 1:26:38
  Is it guided meditations?
• 1:26:40
  Is it these, you know, these are sort of known tools.
• 1:26:44
  Yeah.
• 1:26:45
  Or are there others?
• 1:26:46
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:26:46
  Well, you know, so it's, it's lots I essentially what we
• 1:26:50
  already have talked about the ma modulating your stress response.
• 1:26:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:26:54
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:26:54
  The visualization is a big piece of it.
• 1:26:57
  We also want folks to be able to see the things that are going well as opposed to
• 1:27:03
  just the things that are not going well.
• 1:27:05
  The challenges.
• 1:27:06
  So really important.
• 1:27:07
  Ones called the Daily Wins exercise.
• 1:27:10
  And we have folks sit down at the end of each day, or you can do it
• 1:27:14
  at the beginning of each day and come up with three to five things
• 1:27:17
  that went well on that given day.
• 1:27:20
  Because human nature.
• 1:27:23
  Takes us pretty readily to the negative stuff.
• 1:27:26
  Yeah, the negative bias.
• 1:27:27
  What should have happened?
• 1:27:29
  What should we have done?
• 1:27:30
  Why are we not succeed?
• 1:27:32
  You know, that kind of thing.
• 1:27:33
  So this daily wind exercise helps neutralize our lens and maybe even put
• 1:27:39
  it a little bit towards the positive.
• 1:27:41
  We're not trying to minimize the challenges because challenge is
• 1:27:44
  real and it's gonna come up every single day, probably multiple
• 1:27:49
  times for all of us big or small.
• 1:27:52
  And so the Daily winds exercise is an important piece.
• 1:27:55
  Journaling is a huge piece.
• 1:27:57
  What's happened in our day?
• 1:27:58
  How did we respond to it?
• 1:28:00
  How would we like to respond differently?
• 1:28:02
  Creating that kind of a roadmap is important.
• 1:28:05
  Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for the people like me who just will not journal?
• 1:28:09
  Nope.
• 1:28:10
  I write for a living.
• 1:28:11
  It's like, no, I'm sorry.
• 1:28:12
  I'm not gonna write anymore.
• 1:28:14
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:28:14
  Yeah, I got ya.
• 1:28:15
  And, and, right.
• 1:28:16
  It's not, it's not gonna fit for everybody.
• 1:28:18
  Right.
• 1:28:18
  So then you might, you
• 1:28:20
  Rupert Isaacson: say plan B from journaling.
• 1:28:21
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:28:21
  So plan B from journaling is reflection.
• 1:28:25
  You can always take time to reflect, to think, and you can do
• 1:28:30
  that, you know, within yourself.
• 1:28:32
  Or you can do that in conjunction with you know, a spouse, a partner, a
• 1:28:38
  trusted advisor, a friend and kind of go back and forth in your reflections.
• 1:28:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:28:43
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:28:43
  So that would be plan B.
• 1:28:44
  You don't have to write it out.
• 1:28:46
  And then another building block is.
• 1:28:50
  What do you love to do?
• 1:28:52
  You know, what, what is a hobby that you don't have time for that you might
• 1:28:56
  be able to reintegrate in some way?
• 1:28:59
  Maybe it's something you love to do in the past.
• 1:29:01
  Maybe it's something you wanna try that's new, but creating space, and
• 1:29:06
  it could be a teeny, tiny engagement to start, but to give your sense self
• 1:29:11
  that sense of how that feels to be, you know, taking a little bit of time out to
• 1:29:17
  paint or draw or whatever it is for you.
• 1:29:19
  You know, there's no one size fits all.
• 1:29:21
  That's an important building block as well.
• 1:29:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny, I have a I grew up very much in the
• 1:29:27
  English hunt field, which is fox hunting, you know, riding two hounds.
• 1:29:32
  Which is, there is nothing like it in terms of adrenaline.
• 1:29:37
  Now I can't justify doing that anymore because I can't hassle
• 1:29:40
  a, a fox for my own enjoyment.
• 1:29:42
  So I, I do a.
• 1:29:45
  Simulated version of it where we lay a scent and try to do it creatively so
• 1:29:50
  that the hounds, you know, have a bit of trouble working it out and we'll get
• 1:29:53
  someone to lay it across a stretch of country that might be a bit challenging
• 1:29:56
  to ride over or something like that.
• 1:29:58
  But it's, and even then frequently I find that I'm not able to do
• 1:30:02
  it for bazillions of reasons.
• 1:30:05
  So I discovered YouTube and I realized that people were going out hunting
• 1:30:10
  in these areas of England that I grew up in, which I love and are
• 1:30:13
  still dear to me, even though I live, you know, hundreds of, sometimes
• 1:30:17
  thousands of miles away from that.
• 1:30:19
  And they put, he, they put helmet cams on and they go.
• 1:30:22
  And I found, I found people going out hunting in these areas that I grew up in.
• 1:30:29
  And I watch them, and it's so interesting.
• 1:30:33
  I feel so much better.
• 1:30:35
  It's like, at first I thought, oh, it's just gonna make me feel
• 1:30:37
  bad because I'm not able to do it, and I'm not able to go there.
• 1:30:39
  It's like, no, it was the opposite.
• 1:30:42
  And it was so unexpected and, and such a kind of lovely
• 1:30:48
  use of social media in a, in a funny way.
• 1:30:50
  You know, we're so used to thinking of social media as a negative, but of
• 1:30:53
  course, you and I would not be having this conversation, but for social media
• 1:30:57
  people perhaps wouldn't discover your book, but for social media so, you know,
• 1:31:00
  social media is just another way for humans to, you know, swap information.
• 1:31:04
  But I was, I was really astonished by the joy that that came with this.
• 1:31:09
  Do you help people to, to sort of engage virtually in the things
• 1:31:15
  that give them joy if they can't access them perhaps in this moment?
• 1:31:19
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:31:19
  Definitely that, that's always an opportunity depending on, you know,
• 1:31:23
  who the person is or their willingness to engage in that way, but absolutely.
• 1:31:29
  You know, and it can be as simple as you know, a virtual meeting,
• 1:31:33
  a virtual coffee meeting with a friend, or that kind of a thing.
• 1:31:36
  Or there are folks who love to engage in role-playing games online in communities
• 1:31:44
  of folks that they, they are a part of, you know, that kind of a thing.
• 1:31:49
  So there's all sorts of opportunity to do just the type of thing
• 1:31:54
  that you're, you're describing.
• 1:31:56
  So Absolutely.
• 1:31:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:31:59
  The sort of blessings of the modern age in a funny way.
• 1:32:03
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:32:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:32:03
  Yes.
• 1:32:04
  Exactly.
• 1:32:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:32:05
  Well listen, people will need to know how to find the book.
• 1:32:09
  How to Access You.
• 1:32:09
  I know you do public speaking, I know you also coach online and virtually, and I'm
• 1:32:14
  sure there's listeners and people watching who think Yeah, I could use a bit of Kate.
• 1:32:19
  So how do they find you, Dr.
• 1:32:20
  Kate and your book?
• 1:32:21
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:32:21
  Absolutely.
• 1:32:22
  So a great way to do that is through my website, which
• 1:32:24
  is www kate lund speaks.com.
• 1:32:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Kate lund speaks.com.
• 1:32:32
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:32:32
  Yes, exactly.
• 1:32:33
  And my book is available on the website as well as on Amazon.
• 1:32:38
  Rupert Isaacson: And give us the title again.
• 1:32:40
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:32:40
  Step Away.
• 1:32:41
  The Keys to Resilient Parenting.
• 1:32:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
• 1:32:45
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:32:45
  And I'm also very active on Instagram and LinkedIn.
• 1:32:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Great.
• 1:32:49
  So people can find you.
• 1:32:50
  And if they also want to a bit of personal help, they can
• 1:32:57
  let you help them get some resilience in their parenting.
• 1:33:00
  A
• 1:33:01
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:01
  hundred percent.
• 1:33:01
  Yes.
• 1:33:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
• 1:33:03
  Well I, I know that a lot of our followers will be interested in
• 1:33:06
  that, so thank you so much Dr.
• 1:33:09
  Kate for coming on.
• 1:33:11
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:11
  Well, thank you for having me.
• 1:33:12
  I really appreciate it.
• 1:33:13
  This has been a lot of fun.
• 1:33:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it really has.
• 1:33:16
  And I'm gonna go and try your your just, I'm gonna imagine horses say awesome,
• 1:33:21
  not imagine I'm gonna say horses.
• 1:33:23
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:23
  Rupert Isaacson: The next time I'm, I'm, I've got it on my agenda.
• 1:33:26
  I'm gonna say that tomorrow when I get stressed about something.
• 1:33:29
  'cause I inevitably will.
• 1:33:30
  And I'm gonna see how that goes for me and I'll take, see
• 1:33:33
  if I can find that baseline.
• 1:33:36
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:36
  Perfect.
• 1:33:36
  I love it.
• 1:33:37
  And let me know how it goes.
• 1:33:39
  Rupert Isaacson: I will, I will indeed.
• 1:33:40
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:40
  Okay.
• 1:33:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.
• 1:33:41
  Thank you so
• 1:33:42
  Dr. Kate Lund:
• 1:33:42
  much.
• 1:33:43
  Thank you so much.
• 1:33:43
  Thank you.
• 1:33:43
  Bye-bye.
• 1:33:44
  Bye.
• 1:33:44
  Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
• 1:33:48
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• 1:33:52
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• 1:33:56
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• 1:34:02
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