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This is Your Brain on Chilling Out · HER

0:08
Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I'm Dr.
0:08
Pam Peeke, and this is episode 563, woo, of The Bold and the Brave, Her Podcast.
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Now, today I'm joined by one of our repeat offenders, and that is Wall Street
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Journal columnist, Elizabeth Bernstein.
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And oh boy, is this gonna be wild and crazy, 'cause this is your
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brain on chilling out or trying to chill out one way or the other.
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So for all of you who may not know Elizabeth, all three of you, she's been at
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The Wall Street Journal for over 25 years.
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And she's covered topics such as higher education, philanthropy,
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mental health, religion.
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She's an investigative reporter on several high-profile projects, and has really
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written two different columns as well.
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So she's been around forever and a day, and what I'm telling you is that this
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next column she wrote, I sa- I called her up immediately and said, "Let's do this.
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This is too crazy not to do."
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So this is your brain on chilling out.
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Elizabeth, welcome back to the Her Podcast.
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Thanks for having me
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Pam Peeke, MD: I love the title.
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It's Meditation Never Worked for Me, So I Had Harvard Researchers Scan My Brain.
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What the hell?
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did you decide to go down this path?
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Elizabeth Bernstein: You know, I, I, like many people, struggle to chill out.
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You know, I think that we're all-- I write this column about relationships, which
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includes how we relate to ourselves, and I learn, and I believe that we're all
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looking for ways to reduce stress, to, you know, try to, reset ourselves, recharge.
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You know, we're living in times that are very busy, very tough.
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And so I've struggled though, and I've tried all the different
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apps that you can meditate.
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That's one way I've tried to calm down.
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And then I saw this research.
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I thought it was really interesting.
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And these researchers at Harvard, for the first time, they say, mapped, people's
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brains while they were meditating.
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So in the past, people had mapped a brain before and after.
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But now they mapped it while you're meditating.
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They did brain scans, and they saw that, exactly when brains calm down, and
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they said it was two to three minutes.
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And even newbies, even people who are beginners to meditation
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would see these results.
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So I had to find out for myself, and I thought if they could get me to calm
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down, then they're really onto something
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Pam Peeke, MD: I have my calm down, story as well, all right?
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Which I think is, is very pertinent.
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This is why I looked at this and I said, "Oh my God, memory lane."
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So Herb Benson was the founder of the Mind Body Institute at Harvard.
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I remember when he first mentioned this whole issue of, you know, the mind
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is very powerful here, especially…
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Well, he was a cardiologist, especially as it relates to things like high
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blood pressure and cardiovascular disease, and he was poo-pooed.
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They said, "What are you nuts or something?
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We give people pills for all that stuff."
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And he said, "I don't know."
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And so he brought in some, monks, and they were all staring at
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him like he'd lost his mind.
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speaking of mind, the monks were incredible.
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They could reduce their heart rate and their blood pressure upon demand.
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Elizabeth Bernstein: It's crazy
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Pam Peeke, MD: And, they did it in front of everybody there.
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And, all of a sudden, you know, some of those other scientists over
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there at Harvard were scratching their heads saying, "I don't
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know, maybe he's onto something."
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And one thing led to another.
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Needless to say, we all know where this ended, and that is, the reason
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why you write such magnificent columns.
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It's about the mind, it's psychology, and he lent credibility.
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So I met him somewhere along the line, and I walked up to him one day
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and I said, "You know, I can't…
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No, no.
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Look at me.
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I'm a quadruple, quintuple A personality.
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You really think I can chill out?"
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And, and he go, "Of course you can.
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And I'm gonna teach you the relaxation response," which is the title of his
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most famous book, little, tiny book.
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So I read the book and I went, "Mm-hmm," and we sat down together.
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I lasted 11 seconds.
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I was one of his most epic failures.
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I just totally failed the whole thing.
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Oh my God.
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And, flashing forward, what really happened was that you have to fi- and
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you mentioned this, and we're gonna get into this in two seconds, you have
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to find the kind of chilling out and meditation that works best for you.
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I found, you know, forget the teaser alert, here's the answer.
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I do a combination of prayer and, transcendental meditation.
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so I put both of those together and somehow it all worked.
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Some of the other forms just don't kick in for me at all.
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So I think part of the answer to this whole thing, like I can't meditate,
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is maybe the fit wasn't right and, you know, and trying to get that
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whole thing together, you know?
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So, all right, that was, that was my you know, interesting way of putting it.
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The TM teachers, by the way, did a great job of trying to understand me.
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So they said, "Dr.
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Pete, we have formulated a teaching for you," 'cause y-
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you're taught for several days.
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"We're going to call it warrior meditation because that's who you are.
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You're like an Amazon."
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So I said, "Ooh, cool.
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You know, I thought you were going to go like granola on me here."
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And, they didn't.
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They, they did a great job.
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So again, it was about a fit and meeting just the right people.
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And I think that when people read this incredible column you wrote, they're
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going to learn a lot more about what this whole brain thing is about on meditation.
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All right.
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Now, what did you do?
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You called up the, the folk over at Harvard and you said, "Here I am."
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So now what?
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Elizabeth Bernstein: I said, "Can I come on up?"
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They said, "Sure."
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Because all of these people-- It was fascinating to me when I got
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there, but this was a lab full of researchers, neuroscientists, the
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lead, was an anesthesiologist.
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These are people on staff at Harvard Medical School.
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But they all meditate, and they have large, you know, very serious
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meditative practices in their own lives.
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I've never seen people laugh more.
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Like, they were just the happy laughing people.
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So I was already sold on the Zoom call beforehand.
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But, then we went up there-- I went up there, and I had them, you
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know, really do the brain scan.
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You know, I had an EEG, so I wore the cap, they scanned my brain while
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I meditated for fifteen minutes.
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And there's a lead-up, you know, where you do some breathing, and
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then afterwards, you know, they get a baseline before and after.
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But for fifteen minutes, I meditated with their protocol, which is a person…
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It was focused attention meditative, and it's, somebody just saying two sentences.
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" think it is, "I'm not the mind.
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I am not even the body."
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As you breathe in on "I am not the mind," you breathe out on "I am not the body."
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And that's all I had to do for fifteen minutes
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Pam Peeke, MD: Wow.
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What was that like?
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Well, at first I was nervous.
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Well, I was very nervous beforehand because I thought, "Well, this just
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isn't gonna work," because they told me no caffeine and no hair gel.
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And it's June, and I have curly hair, and I-- this was just not gonna work for me.
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We were gonna have a videographer, and I thought, "Well, how am I gonna even focus?
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I don't have any caffeine.
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It's early in the morning."
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so I was already a little bit more stressed than usual.
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But then when I got there, and they, me listen to the recording beforehand.
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But when we started, the me- when I started the meditation, I really
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thought, "This person's talking too fast.
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This man who's speaking is talking too fast, and I'm gonna have to ha- ask them.
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I'm gonna have to stop this whole thing and ask them to slow him
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down, slow the recording, and I can keep up with my breathing."
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And so I was a little stressed for a few seconds, a minute.
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and then I-- in my head, I thought, "Wow, they must have read my
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mind 'cause they've got a brain scan going, and they're Harvard.
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They're very smart.
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So they must have read my mind, and they must know that I've
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slowed do- they've slowed him down.
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He's, his, the speaking has slowed down."
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And then I thought, "Well, that just can't be.
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I think something's happening in my brain."
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And so it seemed slow enough.
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I could keep up with my breathing.
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And then halfway through, I thought, "Well, "That's very interesting.
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They've stopped the recording."
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I sort of jolted awake.
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Like, I almost think I fell asleep or I, you know, just sort of
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really zoned out for a second.
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then came to and he was talking, and I finished the
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meditation, and I felt very calm.
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It was, you know, e-even
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Pam Peeke, MD: Wait a
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minute, Elizabeth.
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Wait a minute.
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Stop.
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you say you were calm?
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Yeah, it's incredible, right?
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It's really incredible.
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Pam Peeke, MD: you write this down in your diary, your da-
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My God, at exactly 11:05 AM,
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Elizabeth Bernstein: down for the first time ever.
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I thought like this is really-- I mean, my job is busy, my mom is sick.
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Like it was really going into this was a stressful period.
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And I thought, "Wow, like this really worked."
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It-- But I knew it worked before they showed me the results because I felt it.
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And in fact, when the doctor showed me the results, he said, "You already know them.
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You've already felt what happened, so you're not gonna be surprised
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when we show you your brain scan."
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And it showed, and I'm stunned that exactly at two minutes, two and a
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half minutes, I calmed down, and my brain moved from alpha waves into
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theta waves, which was more of a deep, sort of a deep relaxation.
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So, and then it stayed that way even after the meditation.
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So I was really surprised
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Pam Peeke, MD: What was that like for you to see your own brain scan?
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I
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Elizabeth Bernstein: It's really fun.
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It's really fun to see-- Like, it's very fun as a report…
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It's just fun for a person, but it's fun as a reporter to see that
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what you are trying to write about, actually to see the evidence.
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To say, "Wow, that really did work.
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I can see it."
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So I have a lot of-- It's not just subjective, that I
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can really say this worked.
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I can show that this worked, and it's very fun, and it's fun
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to have them explain it to you.
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And, and then we went to lunch afterwards, an hour or two later, and, I thought the
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food was the greatest food I ever tasted.
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It was just Chinese food.
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But I kept saying like, "Wow, it's just not that good in Miami where I live."
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And they all laughed around the table, and they said, "That's the meditation."
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You know, they said, "The food's nice, but it's not spec-- you know, there's nothing
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particularly special about this meal."
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But meditation, they said, "Your brain, it focuses you."
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Because it does two things I learned.
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It calms you down, but it also focuses you.
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And so that's what they can see in the brainwaves.
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They're not waves that just zone you out.
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They can see the focus too, which I think is fascinating
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Pam Peeke, MD: It very interesting.
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It's almost like you're more present, right?
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You're, you're not getting distracted by, you know, some guy talking
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over to your left or, you know, some dog walk by or something.
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You're, you're really into it in a big way.
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A lot of the science, and you mentioned this very well, a lot of the science noted
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that when you reach that more meditative state with the theta waves, right?
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That your prefrontal cortex, which is the CEO of the brain, becomes more, enriched.
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we can actually see in some research that the circulation
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increases to the prefrontal cortex.
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And this is where you organize, where you strategize, where,
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you know, you have a much higher level of thinking and analysis.
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and all of that comes on.
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But the other thing that also occurs is the amygdala, which is where your fight
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and flight response is, is tamped down.
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That's the part that, you know, gets all of us who are, you know, quintuple
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A personalities, and we're kinda doing lizard brain all day long.
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Elizabeth Bernstein: All day
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Pam Peeke, MD: It's like, oh, it just totally just rebounding off every stress
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that, you know, is happening around the world, next door, on top of us, whatever.
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And so that is, to me, wonderful to know that these are actual anatomical
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physiologic changes that are taking place once you reach that more meditative state.
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there are so many people out there, what would you tell them, you know, who
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say, "Oh, God, I could never do that.
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I'm just too razzed up," and
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Through triple A, quadruple A.
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I would say if I can do it, anybody can do it.
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But, again, it goes back to your point that I think different
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types of meditation work.
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One reason I could never really do it before is I would try different
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ones on apps, and maybe the voice would be annoying to me, or it would
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be distracting, and I would get, you know, sort of curious about
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how this person was talking in a way that didn't seem quite natural.
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You know, they talk in a very calm way and, you know, so…
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Or I didn't like the exact guided meditation.
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And this for me, was so simple.
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Two sentences, breathe in, breathe out.
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So the distractions went away right away.
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So, I would say keep trying.
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I, I could never get the meditations where you have to try to sit calmly
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and let your thoughts just float by.
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That just is a concept I don't know that I'll get my mind around.
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but so that didn't work.
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but again, like something so simple as two sentences that I listened
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to, that was really incredible.
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and they assured me that this-- I was gonna see the results, that
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a b- a beginner could do this.
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But I even then I was surprised 'cause I knew how stressed I
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was in my life going into this.
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And I, you know, thought, "I hope this works because I'm going up to Boston
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to write a whole story about it."
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but, I, would say stick with it and keep trying some things and maybe
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start with the most simplest one.
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The
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simplest one
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Pam Peeke, MD: I think one of the biggest lifts from this really
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wonderful column is, that you have to find what works for you.
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and that's-- it's okay.
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You can have epic fails like I did.
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It's like finding clothes.
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Like, "Oh, look, this is the perfect fit."
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Well, you didn't know that until you, you know, tried to wedge yourself
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into some other clothes or maybe that color like, no, that's never
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gonna work, and that type of thing.
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So, you know what was fascinating was, I literally dared my TM teachers.
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I said, "Mm," you know.
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And they said, "Yes, and it'll be twenty minutes."
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I said, "Twenty minutes?
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I couldn't last eleven seconds.
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What are you, crazy or something?"
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And they have like a little clock there, and it was the
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first teaching and whatever.
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But you know what really worked for me?
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I'm a visual person, and what they told me, is they use, an analogy, right?
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"What we're gonna do is it's gonna be like scuba diving."
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and then they had no idea, unless they did some really interesting
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vetting on me, that I'm a scuba diver.
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Elizabeth Bernstein: So am
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Pam Peeke, MD: I love the water.
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So are you.
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You love the water.
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We both love the water.
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So when you first get in the water, you know, you're up there and-- Now, what's
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interesting is when you're just sort of like treading water for a moment
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and trying to get yourself together and get the mouthpiece in and, you know,
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the whole thing, you're getting knocked around by waves, and that's life.
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So that's the stress of your mother and, and all the other
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things going on in your life.
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And so you're getting smacked around by all the waves, right?
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And then as you descend, mm, into theta wave, right, then all of a
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sudden, as you know, as a scuba diver, it gets quiet there's no waves.
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You're just, you know.
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And then as you go deeper, it gets more and more quiet, and then the
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thing-- And see, I could visualize all this 'cause I've done it.
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And then I thought, "Wow."
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And then they said, "Now look to the right, look to the left, look
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in front, look anywhere you want.
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What do you see?"
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And I said, "Infinity."
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'Cause you know when you're in the ocean, there's no wall.
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You're not in a pool, you know?
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It's infinity.
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And, and it occurred to me, my God, this is really cool.
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And so I could see myself.
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I visual-- I, I envision myself doing little twirls in the, in the water and,
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and having fun and, and being weightless.
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and I didn't have to try to think about anything.
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I was just there, and that's what worked.
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So the fit for me, maybe someone else isn't a scuba diver, and
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they wouldn't be able to relate.
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But for me, it was like that was the thing.
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And by the time I came out of it, she had to tell me it was twenty minutes.
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When I saw that it was twenty min-- I literally almost fell off my chair.
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I said, "You have flipping gotta be kidding me."
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And she goes, "Nope, twenty minutes."
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And I thought, "Okay, I can do this.
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We can, we can scuba dive."
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Yeah.
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Right?
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We can scuba dive in our mind.
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It's great.
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And it's just a great feeling.
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I had that same feeling.
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What do you mean we're done?
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I could do that again.
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I can't believe it's over.
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But it's interesting that you said scuba diving because I've always felt
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meditative diving, and I think a big piece of it is the breathing as well, right?
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You have to calm your breathing in, out, and that's a big piece of meditation is
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you're calming, it's all breath oriented.
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but also people wrote me afterwards and they said, "You know, I haven't
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really successfully meditated, but how about scuba diving?
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Or how about fly fishing?
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Or how about when I knit or I crochet?"
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And I do think these repetitive things, especially if they sort of focus, if--
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another thing is, right, you're focusing your attention on something other than
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your monkey mind, is very important too.
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But I have always found scuba diving, especially the breath
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part of it, to be so meditative
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Pam Peeke, MD: There was an article that just came out, I think it's live right
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now in The New York Times, and it was like, "What if I can't run anymore?"
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And, you know, people-- It, really interesting article, and they interviewed
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people who for a whole host of reasons, it's usually the, you know, like I
19:14
got to 50 and my knees are shot or, you know, whatever the issue may be.
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And, the grand majority of them said, never did this to like, you
19:25
know, burn calories or, you know, fit into those jeans or whatever."
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Said, "To hell with that.
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It was all for my mind."
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And now that I don't have it, they literally, you know, shift
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mood and they become gloomier and, even depressed because how do
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you, substitute in the right way?
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But what they really got down to it was it was highly meditative.
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You get lost when you're, you know, as one, woman runner was mentioning, she
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goes, "I feel like I've-- I'm flying.
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It's effortless.
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And, it's all I think about is just how beautiful it is today and, I'm
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not thinking about another thing."
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I don't know.
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Sounds like meditation to me.
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Elizabeth Bernstein: Exactly.
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And again, another breath, you know, sort of focused.
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You have to really, breathe well to run well.
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So, you know, I think that's a key, but I, I can see that.
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I think there's probably so many activities that are meditative
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Pam Peeke, MD: So in the article you, you were quoting, Dr.
20:31
B.
20:31
I'm gonna say that because you can say his name and I can't.
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it's a quite a long name.
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He's a professor of anesthesiology at, at Harvard Medical School, and he's the one
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who, you know, is overseeing the study.
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The goal of meditation is to get into a space where you're observing
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your thoughts coming and going, but you're not caught up in them.
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They don't, like, snare you, like, "Oh my God, I just had this fearful
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thought," you know, and whatever.
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He said, "There is a distance between you and your mind and body."
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You know what I thought about?
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I just had another thought.
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and that is when I was walking around Lake Washington with a good friend of
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mine who was one of the big, you know, original leadership team with Microsoft.
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And we were just walking around, and she was teaching me, something about Buddhism.
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And she said, "Look up at these…"
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You know, Lake Washington is gorgeous, and it was a beautiful sort of sunny day, blue
21:39
skies, and some really nice fluffy clouds.
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And she said, "Gra-," you know, "Look at that one cloud right there."
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And I said, "Oh, okay."
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And she said, "Now take every funky thought that is filled with maybe
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some fear, anxiety, weirdness, something, almost feeling toxic,
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and just dump it on the cloud."
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Okay.
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So I said, "All right.
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It's dumped."
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She says, "Now watch the cloud slowly go away," and it just took
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all of that little bad stuff with it.
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Every, ever since then, when I look up and I see the clouds, I'm
22:20
Elizabeth Bernstein: That's a good technique
22:22
Pam Peeke, MD: It, it's a brilliant
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technique.
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It's just like, Okay, It's gone.
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Bye."
22:28
You know?
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And I love it.
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So, and then they said the effects of all of this are cumulative.
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The more you meditate, the more lasting the benefits.
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What's that about?
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Elizabeth Bernstein: you know, and they're saying this is
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just for a few minutes a day.
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You don't have to sit down for two hours a day, but some of these researchers did.
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but, the more you meditate, so if you meditate every day, the more
22:52
you're going to calm down, the more you're gonna see the health benefits.
22:55
There's health benefits with reduced blood pressure and, the, more you
22:59
do it, the better you're going to feel, and physically and mentally.
23:03
And I think that's so compelling
23:06
Pam Peeke, MD: I think that that's awesome.
23:08
and you also mentioned, it's kind of like, you know, I was thinking about this.
23:14
It's like mental pennies in a mental piggy bank, you know?
23:20
Elizabeth Bernstein: Yeah
23:21
Pam Peeke, MD: You're just sort of a- accumulating and it's like, look
23:24
what I have here, you know, 'cause it really works, you know, over time.
23:28
So there are different kinds of medic- meditation.
23:33
my, my doctor mind wants to keep turning this word into medication
23:37
and I'm like, "Stop that right now.
23:39
Just stop it."
23:41
okay.
23:41
So you've got focused attention meditation.
23:44
What's that?
23:45
Elizabeth Bernstein: So that's what I did.
23:46
so where I focused on a sentence, you could focus on a chant, focus on a
23:50
word, focus on your breath, but you're focusing on one thing, and that, is
23:57
what's going to get you into that state.
23:58
You're repeating something.
23:59
The breath, again, like fo- the focus on something that's repeating
24:03
Pam Peeke, MD: is that looking at like a candle burning?
24:07
Is that the same thing
24:09
Elizabeth Bernstein: You know, I honestly don't know the answer to that question.
24:12
Pam Peeke, MD: Interesting.
24:12
I wonder.
24:13
I don't know.
24:14
Well, then there's open awareness meditation, and that's where it's all
24:19
about your mind and your thoughts, right?
24:22
Elizabeth Bernstein: That's sort of what you talked about with the clouds.
24:24
You can often-- I've heard them say, you know, picture your thoughts
24:27
drifting by like a cloud drifts by.
24:30
But it's-- that's one I find it a little harder to do personally, but
24:33
where you're, sort of letting your thoughts come and go and sort of
24:38
you're supposed to observe them.
24:40
Oh, wow, I had that very bad thought, and then it's leaving.
24:45
so that, that's what that is
24:48
Pam Peeke, MD: How interesting is that?
24:49
And then there's this other one that I have big problems with, okay?
24:55
We're, we're just gonna be totally transparent.
24:57
It's, it's you're gonna love this.
25:00
It's loving kindness meditation.
25:04
So what the h- what, what is this?
25:06
Elizabeth Bernstein: This is where you send thoughts of love and kindness to
25:10
yourself, to others, to the world, to someone you love, to someone you don't
25:15
love, to someone who's very difficult.
25:17
And there's sort of a protocol.
25:19
You go through these different groups of people, it's yourself, someone
25:23
you love, someone you find difficult, someone you don't know well, the world.
25:28
I don't know the exact order.
25:29
But it's interesting because after I did my meditation story, I saw
25:32
some research that showed that doing this, regularly can make you happier.
25:37
They have some research that shows the loving-kindness
25:39
meditation makes us happier.
25:41
So I've decided to stack them now.
25:43
Before I go to bed, I stack my listening to the sentences, "I am not the mind.
25:48
I am not even the body," and then I do a loving-kindness.
25:50
And I have to say, I sleep much better on those nights.
25:54
So just go out like a light
25:57
Pam Peeke, MD: I have a friend who, you know, is really into the loving kindness
26:01
thing and she sent me this, it was like a Christmas present or something, and
26:07
it was a, a whole bunch of really cool Post-Its and it said, "I burn incense."
26:15
I meditate daily
26:19
I think kind thoughts And I still wanna slap people
26:26
Elizabeth Bernstein: That's all of us.
26:26
It's totally true.
26:29
Pam Peeke, MD: I just loved it.
26:31
It was like, "Okay, you know, I'm there.
26:34
You know, you tried,
26:35
but you still wanna do bad
26:37
things to people."
26:38
Oh my God.
26:39
Elizabeth Bernstein: It goes back to psychology
26:41
Pam Peeke, MD: I know, 'cause you know what happens with the loving
26:42
kindness thing, what, what immediately comes to my brain is like, you
26:47
know, all the people who are really annoying me at this very moment.
26:51
Elizabeth Bernstein: Mm-hmm.
26:52
Pam Peeke, MD: And, and somehow that compassion thing, I don't know.
26:54
I don't know.
26:55
It's
26:55
a deal breaker
26:56
Elizabeth Bernstein: the person who's a little tiny bit annoying, not the
26:58
really annoying one, or you'll get
26:59
stuck
27:01
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
27:01
I think I'm gonna have to
27:02
be a little more discerning in the future cause I…
27:07
I…
27:07
oh, oh my gosh, please.
27:09
No, no, no.
27:09
We're not doing politics.
27:11
All right.
27:11
Now, when we come back, I'm gonna be asking Elizabeth some really pointed
27:18
questions about meditation going forward, especially after this experience
28:23
And we're back.
28:25
Okay, so what the hell did you really learn from this whole thing?
28:29
What are you, what are you using right now in your life?
28:33
What's going on?
28:35
Elizabeth Bernstein: You know, I learned that it does work and that it's certainly
28:38
worth going forward trying to do.
28:40
That this is, you know, I saw, I felt it, a very powerful effect, and I saw
28:44
the powerful effect on my brain scan.
28:46
And then I met these people who meditate a lot, and they did seem very, very happy.
28:52
So that's enough for me to decide that I'm going to try to do this every day
28:56
and maybe see if I do another story in three months and see if I'm a
28:59
measurably, you know, objectively happier or calmer person or less reactive.
29:06
or maybe, one thing that's interesting is Dr.
29:11
Subramaniam, he goes by Bala, his first name, Dr.
29:15
Bala, he-- who is the lead researcher here, he showed me his Oura Ring,
29:20
results of his sleep, and he sleeps maybe six hours, if I remember, a night.
29:26
He's not sleeping seven and eight, but he's sleeping a very
29:30
large amount in very deep sleep.
29:32
And that was also very compelling to see, so I thought, I wonder if I
29:35
can change my sleep by meditating.
29:37
So I think I'm gonna do some more experiments, see if this works
29:41
Pam Peeke, MD: it's, really interesting because when I started to really
29:45
do this as a practice-- hello, people, I said the word practice.
29:50
Doing this once a month is, yeah, that's a real special experience,
29:55
but that'd be like training for a marathon by running once a month.
29:59
That's not happening, okay?
30:01
You, you've got to do this on a more routine basis, but don't be
30:04
weird and strict about it, right?
30:07
if-- like, for instance, I for sure get my 20 minutes in in the morning 'cause I
30:13
have-- I get up early enough to be able to do some of that, and that's good, okay?
30:19
But later in the day, you know, when all hell is breaking out and all my
30:24
great thoughts about getting a whole bunch of stuff done, well, you know.
30:28
So when that may fall apart, I may or may not get to that second 20 minutes,
30:34
'cause TM involves 20 minutes twice a day.
30:37
And you know what I say to myself?
30:39
Little loving kindness, okay?
30:42
Girlfriend, you got one in.
30:44
That's cool.
30:45
That's better than none.
30:46
And it means a lot.
30:48
It's like how you set the pace for the day and the rest of it.
30:53
So how are you doing yours?
30:56
Elizabeth Bernstein: So I do it, usually before I start work.
30:59
So I do not get up probably as early as you do, but I do do it before I start
31:04
work, and then I do it, the one I can get more regularly to is before I go to bed.
31:10
Dr.
31:11
Bala did say he feels that sunrise and sunset are the best times to
31:16
meditate because there's a transition already that your body's recognizing.
31:20
but that's just not feasible for me on either end.
31:23
You know, I'm not up for the sunrise and usually, and the sunset I'm working.
31:28
So, it's just not.
31:30
So but I've found that right before bed is very helpful.
31:34
I can calm down, and it, it also cuts off that…
31:37
Usually I read, but now it cuts off this like f- I'm paying attention, I'm
31:41
paying attention, I wanna check my phone.
31:43
Oops, I scrolled for 20 minutes, and now I'm really still activated
31:48
in my brain or upset about something I saw on the news or…
31:51
You know, it really is a great for me transition from sort of active
31:56
mind to like internal calming down
31:59
Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah, it's interesting.
32:01
it also made me much more aware of the, landmines out there.
32:08
Literally land mines, you know, with a D.
32:12
and that is , you know, doom scrolling, you know, freaking out,
32:17
especially with the news nowadays.
32:20
You know, it's just, there's so much anxiety and craziness and the rest of it.
32:25
So what I find myself doing is really turning all of that off.
32:30
I've been very proud of myself.
32:32
Elizabeth Bernstein: Yes.
32:32
Pam Peeke, MD: you'd be proud.
32:34
Elizabeth Bernstein: That's-- I am proud of you.
32:35
It's very hard.
32:36
It's a, it's impressive because it's very hard.
32:39
And then there's research that shows that these short-term videos, every
32:42
little video we're seeing on Instagram or TikTok is very bad for our brain.
32:46
And so it's keeping us addicted and it's, it's n-it's not-- I can't remember the
32:49
exact results, but just the big banner headline that it's very bad for our brain.
32:54
And so this takes me away from that in the evening, and I don't…
32:58
It's, it's almost like a way to, at first, supplant it,
33:03
but have something else to do.
33:05
But also it makes it less compelling because this becomes very compelling
33:09
when you feel how calm you are.
33:11
And it's interesting, going back to your prayer mention, I think
33:14
prayer can be a meditation.
33:16
And also for me, I find that the loving kindness in a way
33:19
is also a, a prayerful thing.
33:21
So, and I th-I like that before bed too.
33:24
I think it's really, a nice way to transition to s-going to sleep
33:30
Pam Peeke, MD: So I'm a recovering Catholic, okay?
33:33
I'm in, I'm in recovery right now.
33:35
I'm in rehab.
33:37
it's, it's it was traumatic.
33:41
but I've, I've saved, you know, a few prayers that have
33:46
always been very comforting to me, and they're short enough.
33:49
And so who doesn't know the Hail Mary, right?
33:52
And Our Father and, and that type of thing.
33:56
And I, find myself, much to the chagrin of the strict TM people, you
34:02
know, just, I like cobbling things together and customizing them for
34:07
myself so that it works for me.
34:11
don't like to be told what to do, as it were.
34:15
so I always like to have wiggle room to make it, to call it my own, to
34:20
say, "I crafted this for myself."
34:24
And, you know, it's so interesting.
34:28
one of the reasons why I loved this, column that you wrote,
34:33
Elizabeth, is, after I got through laughing at the original picture,
34:39
of you and the electrodes.
34:40
Yeah, that was, it was special.
34:42
Elizabeth Bernstein: happy
34:44
Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
34:45
It's just the whole world had to see that.
34:47
What's really important here is to say how unbelievably critical it is that we calm
34:58
our heads down for everything in life.
35:03
That before we, you know, go from zero to angry outburst, that we kind of, mm.
35:09
I found that as I did more and more meditation, it became so much easier to
35:15
just sort of stay in that calm place.
35:18
So you mentioned that you tried a bunch of apps and, you know,
35:22
whatever, to try to calm down and, and things didn't go so swimmingly.
35:28
those app things never work for me.
35:30
I don't wanna listen to s- yeah, I found them useless.
35:34
now that doesn't mean that they're not useful for somebody out there,
35:39
but for me, you know, that's not good.
35:42
So one thing led to another and, I just found that, owning the experience as
35:50
my own and then realizing, of course, you know, I'm a researcher, so I had
35:56
to look at the, the published evidence, as you did too when you wrote this.
36:03
And what it says is, your mental health is dependent upon your ability to modulate
36:15
your mood because you can control that.
36:18
That's one of the few things we can control in life, but
36:21
you can actually control that.
36:22
You know what I think about?
36:24
You know, you know I'm an outdoor person, so are you, and whatever, and I'm a major
36:29
league hiker and, and back and forth.
36:31
I think, "Okay, I'm gonna go on a five-miler," right?
36:35
And maybe even a longer one, whatever.
36:39
and I'm hiking out there.
36:40
What do you think is reasonable to do about halfway through?
36:44
You know, you see a big rock over there, you sit down.
36:47
Elizabeth Bernstein: Mm-hmm.
36:47
Pam Peeke, MD: You take a chill.
36:49
You know, you look around and you go, "It's a pretty cool place.
36:52
You know, I didn't realize they had those kind of trees over there."
36:55
And you're becoming mindful.
36:56
But guess what you're doing?
36:58
You're resting and calming the body.
37:02
The body was like, "Thanks a lot for the rest, 'cause we've been
37:05
kind of going uphill and things are looking a little iffy."
37:09
Right?
37:09
Why are we not doing that with our minds?
37:12
Our minds are going like crazy things, like a little gerbil
37:15
wheel in there, all day long.
37:18
Did it ever occur to people you need to rest your mind as well?
37:23
Elizabeth Bernstein: No, and I think it's getting worse, of course, because with
37:26
the internet again, and the internet's gone from just pictures to these videos
37:31
and people talking at you all the time.
37:33
in, the corporate world too, I think people's jobs have picked up.
37:35
It's a, it's a very tough time.
37:37
Companies are under stress.
37:39
They want more, more, more out of everybody.
37:41
And so there's just this, never rest from the top down.
37:45
Everybody's stressed out and pushing for more.
37:48
And you're right, there's just not this culture that we would rest.
37:51
And it's you know, the major religions of the world have built-in
37:54
rest into their weeks, right?
37:56
So, but we just don't do that anymore in our secular world, really, unless,
38:00
you know, you're quite religious and you're observing a Sabbath of some kind.
38:03
So, but we don't, and it's so important because it's important
38:07
for our, our mental health.
38:08
It's important for our physical health.
38:10
It's important for our relationships, our work, ev- ev-
38:14
our, our parenting, ev- everything
38:17
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, everyone out there, Elizabeth and I are right
38:21
now giving you a license to chill.
38:25
Okay?
38:26
You're gonna have your own license to chill because, you
38:29
know, you weren't giving, given kudos for that in the workplace.
38:35
It was like, "Keep going, keep going, keep going," especially with
38:37
AI and all this stuff going on.
38:39
Everything's changing at n- you know, nanosecond speed, and you're
38:45
expected to keep up with it.
38:47
You need, just like sitting on that boulder halfway through a
38:51
long, you know, arduous hike, you need time to take a chill.
38:57
And who hasn't taken a nice walk somewhere in a park and, didn't come
39:03
out saying, "Wow, that really cleansed my brain, and I feel more creative.
39:08
I feel calmed down"?
39:10
I mean, you know, who takes a nice walk in the park and said, "You know, that
39:13
was the worst experience of my life"?
39:15
No, it's the best experience.
39:17
You're in nature.
39:18
You're connecting.
39:20
You're calming down.
39:21
Now, that doesn't mean, mind you, that you have to be sitting somewhere.
39:26
You know, for me, I like calming down by just doing what I call meditative walks,
39:31
right?
39:32
And those meditative walks are extremely important.
39:36
I, took, up about five years ago Taijiquan, which is sort of
39:40
more of a military, of course, why not, a version of Tai Chi.
39:45
God forbid I should do
39:47
the just
39:47
the simple one.
39:48
No, no, no.
39:49
We have swords, and we got the whole thing, you know, rocking as soon
39:53
as you reach a certain belt level.
39:56
You know, it, it's sort of me, you know?
39:59
But what's interesting about that is that you're called out if you
40:04
go too fast So everything there, if
40:08
you just look carefully-- Well, actually it's a thing now in
40:11
fitness, the Tai Chi walk.
40:14
So it's very methodical.
40:16
Have you seen it?
40:17
It's, it's all over the internet.
40:19
It's just extremely methodical and, you know, you're not just kinda
40:23
like schlepping along or something.
40:25
You're, you're really kind of doing it strategically and methodically.
40:30
You're feeling, you know, the ground underneath you.
40:34
You're, you're really engaging muscles that you didn't even know you owned.
40:40
it's a wild experience.
40:42
The first time I did it, of course, you can only imagine what an epic
40:45
fail that was, years ago when I was learning, Tai Chi Quan.
40:49
My, master w- constantly screamed, he said, "Slow it the hell down, will you?"
40:55
And I said, "Okay.
40:56
All right.
40:57
All right.
40:57
Like, how slow would you like it?
41:00
Elizabeth Bernstein: How
41:00
Pam Peeke, MD: Would you like it half?
41:01
Maybe a third?"
41:03
It was like I was constantly negotiating.
41:05
And he said, "Just slow it down."
41:07
And then he would take it to a painfully slow level and, have me follow him.
41:13
And I suddenly realized, okay, light bulb went off, so this is how you do it.
41:19
And I noticed my mind changed right along with
41:22
it, Have you ever tried anything like
41:24
Elizabeth Bernstein: I haven't gone that slow, but I do make myself walk
41:27
with no music, you know, no phone calls.
41:30
Like, it's very rare.
41:31
People, I see them all over my neighborhood walking their dogs, like
41:34
they're not, you know, even running.
41:36
They're, they're listening to something, listening to a podcast.
41:39
But it is, it's tuning all of that out, down and out.
41:44
so I'm gonna try the slower walk, see how
41:47
Pam Peeke, MD: But the slow walk thing is wild.
41:48
Just look at, you know, look it up.
41:50
They have some great videos out there.
41:52
You know, when I walked, my beloved German shepherd, I used to, you know,
41:57
have my podcast thing going or whatever.
42:01
Then I realized, you know, I'm not even mindful of my surroundings.
42:04
You know, I'm walking around a gorgeous lake, I've got beautiful greenery around.
42:09
What, what is wrong with me?
42:11
And so I forbade myself, and I just said, "No, we're not doing that anymore."
42:17
And now I'm, like, totally, I've made friends with certain ducks, and
42:22
I've, I'm, I'm right there with the Canadian geese, and my herons are
42:26
out there, too, and all that stuff.
42:28
And, the, it's like one big happy family that I didn't even know existed
42:34
Elizabeth Bernstein: existed.
42:36
And you're getting at something else, which is awe, which is my favorite
42:40
line of research, where, you know, awe can also, lower our blood pressure.
42:46
It can help, with depression and anxiety.
42:49
It can improve relationships.
42:50
This is all a strong body of research.
42:52
And awe itself is really anything that we-- is bigger than ourselves.
42:56
So, it can be the, the herd of, not-- I guess it's not a herd of geese, is it?
43:02
A flock of geese.
43:04
It's not
43:05
herd.
43:06
it's a flock of geese.
43:07
it can be anything, mountains, water, a symphony, a baby taking a walk.
43:12
So-- But when you're outside and you're having these walks and these meditative
43:16
practices outside, you're layering awe on.
43:18
So it's just double the benefit
43:20
Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
43:21
And, and I love the awe thing, 'cause now I have something to awe
43:25
about because I'm paying attention.
43:28
Oh my God, when the geese were having little babies, and I walked, you know,
43:34
early in the morning, it was just quiet and so peaceful and all the rest of it.
43:39
Oh my God.
43:41
The babies were underneath the wing.
43:44
I had never seen
43:46
that
43:46
before.
43:47
I have the videos,
43:49
because I…
43:50
Oh my God, little babies poking their heads out going, "Yo," you know?
43:55
And I, if I was listening to a podcast, I'd miss the whole thing.
44:00
Elizabeth Bernstein: Yeah, it's
44:01
Pam Peeke, MD: and that's
44:01
kind of where it's at, So that's kind of where I am.
44:04
So everyone, we have been talking to the one, the only Elizabeth
44:09
Bernstein, of The Wall Street Journal.
44:12
And again, we've been talking about brain scans, meditation, having a
44:19
license to chill, which we all need, and the unbelievable benefits of
44:25
just calming down to your own mental health, let alone your physical health.
44:33
and this is another shout-out that this is a mind-body proposition.
44:39
I know you hear a lot of physical fitness and the rest of, rest of it from me, but,
44:46
I've always been mind-body, you know that.
44:49
That's just the way.
44:51
And so I really wanna make certain that you know how terribly essential it is that
44:58
you take a moment, and that's one of the reasons why, I had Elizabeth on to explain
45:04
all of this, and her personal, journey.
45:08
And I think it's important to know how human we are.
45:11
I'm human.
45:12
Elizabeth's human.
45:14
You know, we're all kind of struggling with this.
45:16
We're challenged with calming down, you know, the monkey brain, the
45:21
gerbil wheel, whatever you want to call it in your brain, lizard brain.
45:27
and, and just take control.
45:30
Be calm.
45:31
So what's your last statement to people out there who may still be
45:37
on the fence like, I don't know.
45:39
You know, is this real?
45:40
Is this not?"
45:42
Elizabeth Bernstein: my statement would be that it is real, but it's also something
45:44
you don't have to purchase, right?
45:46
I should mention this app that I use, this, you know, I'm not
45:49
the body, I'm not even the mind.
45:51
It's on an app called Miracle of Mind, which is free.
45:54
So you don't have to purchase something.
45:56
You can repeat that yourself.
45:57
You could come up with your own phrase you repeat, listen to your
46:00
breath, walk, run, whatever it is.
46:03
So it's free.
46:04
It, it's relatively easy, I found.
46:07
I was surprised.
46:08
And it really does work.
46:10
So I s- would say stick with it.
46:11
That try it, but stick with it long enough to see.
46:14
And yes, w-we need to be kinder to ourselves and give ourselves that break
46:21
Pam Peeke, MD: I still have those Post-its, by the way.
46:22
I light a candle.
46:24
I, I say my
46:25
meditate.
46:27
I still
46:27
wanna, I still wanna, you know-- It's actually what it said was, "I
46:30
still wanna bitch-slap someone."
46:32
And, so I sh- I fell off my chair, I was laughing so hard, 'cause she's real.
46:37
She knows how hard It is
46:39
you
46:39
know, and, and the whole thing.
46:41
So Elizabeth, just keep up these fantastic columns.
46:45
Everyone, look up Elizabeth Bernstein with The Wall Street Journal.
46:51
Her columns are absolutely priceless.
46:54
I just love them.
46:55
I learn so much from each one of them.
46:58
So please do that.
47:00
And thank you so much, Elizabeth, for being on the HER Podcast
47:04
again
47:04
Elizabeth Bernstein: for having me.
47:05
Thank you
47:06
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh boy.
47:07
And then I wanna thank my wonderful sponsor.
47:10
It's SkinSafe, and that's an app developed by the Mayo Clinic.
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You know, we're in summertime, you know you're cooking your skin, you know that.
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And so what this wonderful SkinSafe app does, developed by the Mayo Clinic, is
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it takes the guesswork out of shopping for skincare and personal care products
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using high-level science, which is what I love, decades of clinical
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research, analyzing the ingredients.
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You gotta run on over to SkinSafe.
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This is absolutely the best.
47:43
So download the app for free and use the link in the description to get
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20% off a SkinSafe premium membership, 'cause I want your skin to look
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healthy and gorgeous, just gorgeous.
47:58
And this has been a production of Podcast Health.
48:04
And just a little thought, you know, when we think about meditation and
48:08
all these new practices and rituals in our lives, you gotta plan.
48:13
Please remember something.
48:14
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
48:19
So let's get this little sucker on your calendar.
48:23
All right.
48:24
Get on out there and seize the day.
48:26
Thanks for listening, everyone