Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / The No. 1 Rising Cancer in Women: Dr. Kemi Doll on Uterine Cancer, Fibroids, HRT & What Women Need to Know
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- 34P1 Hol+ S06E10 - Dr. Kemi Doll - Audio - ClipGrowth.com [00:00:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: If uterine cancer is on the rise, and it is, it's the number one cancer on the rise. [00:00:04] Dr. Taz: [00:00:05] Interesting. It's [00:00:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: one in 32 women, and it will be one in 17 by 2050. [00:00:09] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:00:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:00:10] Yes. It will be the second most common cancer among women by 2050. It's [00:00:15] already more common than colon cancer, and right now we are in a place where everybody [00:00:20] is getting hormones. [00:00:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: And like you said, many are not getting exams and they're not getting [00:00:25] ultrasounds. I think it's reasonable to sound maybe not an alarm, but a flag- Right ... to say, [00:00:30] "Hey, if you still have your uterus, you need to make sure you had a very clear [00:00:35] conversation about what doses am I on, what is gonna protect the endometrium or that [00:00:40] uterus, and how are we gonna monitor it to make sure that there are no issues?" [00:00:43] Dr. Taz: Dr. Kemi Doll [00:00:45] is a physician, surgeon, researcher, and advocate and coach working at the [00:00:50] intersection of health justice, reproductive equity, and personal empowerment. [00:00:54] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right now, [00:00:55] in 2026, Black women have a two times chance higher of dying after [00:01:00] uterine cancer diagnosis. The way that our diagnostic system works is that when you come in, we're [00:01:05] supposed to do an ultrasound, and that ultrasound is supposed to tell us whether there's any risk that you might have [00:01:10] cancer. [00:01:10] Dr. Taz: And what are you looking for historically on that ultrasound? [00:01:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: We're looking for the thickness- Mm-hmm ... of the uterine [00:01:15] lining. Okay. So we call it the endometrial stripe. If it's under four millimeters, you're supposed to have a 0% [00:01:20] chance of having uterine cancer, except all of that research was not done on women of color. [00:01:24] Dr. Taz: [00:01:25] Mm. [00:01:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: Especially not done on Black women. [00:01:27] Dr. Taz: Wow. Her groundbreaking research on [00:01:30] racial disparities in endometrial cancer has been funded by the NIH, the [00:01:35] PCORI, and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and has been featured in The New York [00:01:40] Times, NPR, BET, and Good Morning America. Please join me in welcoming [00:01:45] Dr. [00:01:45] Dr. Taz: Kemi Doll to the show. This episode is sponsored by WholePlus, a holistic [00:01:50] health platform built around education, personalization, and integrative care. [00:01:55] WholePlus blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine clinics with [00:02:00] learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast, so you're not just [00:02:05] treated, you're informed. [00:02:07] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a [00:02:10] curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. [00:02:15] Whole Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit [00:02:20] [00:02:20] Dr. Kemi Doll: us at wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:02:25] W-H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. [00:02:27] Dr. Taz: Dr. Kemi, I am so glad you're [00:02:30] here, and I'm gonna tell you why. [00:02:32] Dr. Taz: I have been in practice for over 20 [00:02:35] years in probably this integrative space. Mm-hmm. And I have sat with so [00:02:40] many women, especially women of color- Mm-hmm ... that are not [00:02:45] getting sort of the GYN help that they need. They are suffering from [00:02:50] all kinds of different symptoms and conditions that I don't see- [00:02:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm [00:02:54] Dr. Taz: in our [00:02:55] Caucasian or even South Asian counterparts. Mm-hmm. And when I go to the [00:03:00] research, right, when I start to dig away and I'm like, "Okay, how can I do something? What can we do here?" There's [00:03:05] really not a lot there. Yeah. You have dedicated your career and your [00:03:10] life to helping Black women and trying to understand what's going on with [00:03:15] them- [00:03:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah [00:03:15] Dr. Taz: understanding what's going on with the womb, right? How did you get into this [00:03:20] space? Mm. What is, what is motivating you and inspiring you to [00:03:25] really start to turn the page on this topic? [00:03:26] Dr. Kemi Doll: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Thrilled to [00:03:30] have you here. Mm-hmm. Really happy to be here. [00:03:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: There's so many things that motivated me, but I have to be [00:03:35] honest to say that probably in an unconscious way, I think my [00:03:40] grandmother, my grandmother's story and her life motivated me because I found out [00:03:45] fairly late actually into my adulthood- Mm-hmm ... that she had died in childbirth. [00:03:49] Dr. Taz: Such a common [00:03:50] story, right? [00:03:50] Dr. Taz: Such a common story. For previous generations of women. [00:03:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: Exactly. Um, and then my mother almost [00:03:55] died- Mm ... um, giving birth. [00:03:56] Dr. Taz: Which was not that long ago. [00:03:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: Which was not that long ago, and then here I [00:04:00] am, and I survived. And so I, I just say that because I think that in a [00:04:05] way, this is exactly the work I was always supposed to be doing, and I gravitated [00:04:10] naturally to it. [00:04:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: In medical school, I loved OBGYN. I loved everything about women's [00:04:15] healthcare. I was totally zeroed in on it. And then when I went to residency, I really just got [00:04:20] fascinated with gynecologic cancers. [00:04:22] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:04:22] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, mostly because I was just amazed that the [00:04:25] uterus could do so many different things. Mm-hmm. I thought, "This organ is, is incredible." [00:04:29] Dr. Kemi Doll: I mean, it can [00:04:30] grow life. It can grow a cancer. It bleeds every month. It d- Like I, I was [00:04:35] scientifically fascinated with it. Mm-hmm. And then more than that, I found that- [00:04:40] Unlike any other organ, the meaning that we make out of [00:04:45] what's going on with our womb, what's going on with the uterus, the, the symptoms that we have, it just [00:04:50] impacts so many parts of our lives that it meant a lot to me to serve women in that [00:04:55] way. [00:04:55] Dr. Kemi Doll: And so I just feel, like, so aligned with this work. [00:04:57] Dr. Taz: There's so much, like, written in the [00:05:00] energetic and spiritual worlds- Yeah ... about the significance of a woman's womb- Yes ... and what that [00:05:05] means. You know, I have a background in Chinese medicine as well- Yes ... with our conventional training, and they talk a [00:05:10] lot about that as being the life force- Mm-hmm [00:05:12] Dr. Taz: of a woman. Mm-hmm. Like, that entire pelvic floor [00:05:15] region- Mm-hmm ... the womb, all of it. Mm-hmm. And when it's compromised or when it is [00:05:20] not maybe working at the capacity that it was meant to work at- Mm-hmm ... that was a very important determinant of [00:05:25] not just womb health, but overall health in general. Exactly. You know? [00:05:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: Exactly. [00:05:28] Dr. Taz: But I wanna go back to your [00:05:30] grandmother. Sure. So what's the year? Tell us the timeline. [00:05:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: Oh, gosh, I would have to do the math. Um- [00:05:34] Dr. Taz: [00:05:35] Roughly. You [00:05:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: know, we've- Roughly we're talking [00:05:40] 1950s. [00:05:40] Dr. Taz: Your grandmother. My grandmother. [00:05:41] Dr. Kemi Doll: 1950s. [00:05:41] Dr. Taz: And then your mom? [00:05:43] Dr. Kemi Doll: My mom, [00:05:45] 19- '80s. [00:05:46] Dr. Taz: Okay. So we're, we're talking mid-ni- you know, [00:05:50] 1900s. [00:05:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Now going into the later, you know, uh, 1900s. Now [00:05:55] we are in the 2000s. Yeah. Has anything changed? [00:05:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: Very little. [00:06:00] [00:06:00] Dr. Taz: That is what's so disappointing. [00:06:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: Exactly. [00:06:02] Dr. Taz: So what happened to your grandmother? [00:06:04] Dr. Kemi Doll: So [00:06:05] nobody knows what... I mean, at that time, the story was simply that she bled too much. [00:06:09] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:06:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: You know? [00:06:10] Um, now I think about the fact that fibroids run in my family, [00:06:15] endometriosis runs in my family. [00:06:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, I had issues [00:06:20] with heavy bleeding and anemia. These things all add up, and I think what we see often [00:06:25] is that we see them come to a head when a woman is trying to give birth, right? Everything comes together, and [00:06:30] there's a lot of risk there. But my work is about recognizing that that's not the only [00:06:35] time- Right [00:06:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: that you're at risk. [00:06:35] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:06:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: And I want the conversation about womb health to get [00:06:40] beyond just the moment of pregnancy and giving birth, to recognize that we spend most of [00:06:45] our lives not pregnant. [00:06:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:06:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: And every single day, a lot of us are taught, [00:06:50] unfortunately, to suffer and to just normalize the symptoms that we [00:06:55] have from these various gynecologic conditions to the point that we are vulnerable enough, [00:07:00] honestly, for it to be a life or death thing. [00:07:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, and so that's kind of [00:07:05] why I'm here. My work is about humanizing that aspect of our life every day, taking it [00:07:10] out of silence, and then asking what can we learn from what's going on, and how [00:07:15] can we heal? [00:07:16] Dr. Taz: Why do you think there's such a gap when it comes to [00:07:20] understanding that what the ch- what Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, all these older systems of med- [00:07:25] Mm-hmm [00:07:25] Dr. Taz: African medicine, they all already understood this, right? Mm-hmm. They already understood in their language- [00:07:30] Mm-hmm ... that the womb was a symbol of overall health for a woman. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? It wasn't [00:07:35] this separate entity that lived over here- Mm-hmm ... and you just used it to get pregnant- Mm-hmm ... and then you took it out when you no longer [00:07:40] needed to have babies anymore. [00:07:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? So that was sort of the standard of care. [00:07:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:07:43] Dr. Taz: Why did we miss the mark [00:07:45] on that- [00:07:45] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm ... [00:07:46] Dr. Taz: where we're not thinking about the womb, you know, not to use the word, you know, [00:07:50] flippantly, but we're not thinking about the womb in a holistic way? [00:07:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: I mean, I think the short answer is misogyny. [00:07:55] I mean, I think- The patriarchy. [00:07:55] Dr. Taz: The patriarchy [00:07:57] Dr. Kemi Doll: is usually the answer. Yeah. I mean, if you think [00:08:00] about, even if you think about- The Western medicine framework- Mm-hmm ... and our [00:08:05] biomedical, like, industrial complex, which I am a part of, I believe in science, I love science. Same. Mm-hmm. Right? But [00:08:10] when you recognize that, like, we don't have an institute for women's health- Right [00:08:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: at the National Institute of Health. Like, we [00:08:15] don't- we, we have an institute for the heart, the blood, the kidneys, everything, but we don't have anything for [00:08:20] gynecologic health. Hmm. So that alone, even though half the population has the or- these organs, and [00:08:25] these are very common conditions we're talking about, not rare. [00:08:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:08:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: So I think [00:08:30] part of that perspective that we have, that this is just for pregnancy and then we'll take it out, [00:08:35] is that we have devalued- Yeah ... the importance of the womb and [00:08:40] the uterus from a biology standpoint, from a health standpoint, and from a research [00:08:45] standpoint, and we are just, just beginning to turn the tide on that, but we have decades of [00:08:50] catch-up to do. [00:08:50] Dr. Kemi Doll: To [00:08:50] Dr. Taz: do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's first talk about the womb, and then I do wanna get into [00:08:55] some of the issues around, you know, Black women and what's happening- Hmm ... in particular in [00:09:00] that community. So the womb in general. Yeah. What are we missing when we think about overall health in the [00:09:05] womb? [00:09:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. So first, first is that your womb health lasts a lifetime, you know? [00:09:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: And so I [00:09:10] think, I think even that recognition that, you know, before puberty there's not much going on, but those [00:09:15] organs are growing. And then when we get into puberty and girls have their first period, most of us were [00:09:20] just taught how to keep it quiet. I mean, succe- a successful period was one where [00:09:25] nobody knew that you were bleeding, right? [00:09:26] Dr. Kemi Doll: You're- you get taught to manage the blood, but you don't really get taught [00:09:30] what are these organs and what are they doing. So I always start with reminding people that, you know, the [00:09:35] uterus is just one part of the reproductive health system. You have fallopian tubes, ovaries, et cetera, [00:09:40] but it's a very critical part. [00:09:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: And the way that I think about [00:09:45] menstruation is, obviously, you know, we bleed every month. There's cramping involved. It's not great [00:09:50] sometimes. But from a medical standpoint, it's something really incredible. Hmm. And I think this is what you're [00:09:55] talking about, about the other systems understanding something more deep than we have. [00:09:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: From a [00:10:00] biology standpoint, it's the only place in the body where you have a wound with a [00:10:05] scarless repair. [00:10:06] Dr. Taz: Fascinating. [00:10:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes, and talk about the metaphor- That's so true. I never thought about [00:10:10] that ... already. Yeah. Yeah. So every month, right, this wound forms on the surface, on the inner [00:10:15] lining of the uterus. You have the shedding. [00:10:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: You have everything that's supposed to happen, and then there is [00:10:20] this beautiful repair process with no scarring. [00:10:22] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:10:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: And so even [00:10:25] giving women that imagery and that understanding starts to shift how you think about what's [00:10:30] happening, and then it can help us understand why it's starting to go wrong. [00:10:34] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:10:34] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:10:35] What's wrong with the shedding process- Hmm ... or what's wrong with the repair, and how that's leading to [00:10:40] potentially too heavy cycles or too much pain, and then we can start to get into the biology [00:10:45] of it and what works and what doesn't. So, um- That's how I would start with [00:10:50] saying, like, what's going on with the womb. [00:10:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, there's so much more, but- Scarless [00:10:53] Dr. Taz: recovery, I love that. Yeah. That's something [00:10:55] that all of us should remember. We're capable of scarless [00:10:57] Dr. Kemi Doll: recovery. [00:10:58] Dr. Taz: Right. How is that for meaning? Who [00:10:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: knew? Yeah. [00:11:00] Yeah, it's like, you know, yeah, I think about that a lot actually. Like, how can we think about that in the [00:11:05] rest of our lives too, right? [00:11:06] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. Right. Like, we are all wounded in some ways, um, [00:11:10] and I think we're all looking for a scarless repair, you know? [00:11:13] Dr. Taz: I love that. [00:11:14] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:11:14] Dr. Taz: What [00:11:15] has your work... And I know you're doing a lot of research around the womb. Mm-hmm. You know, what has your [00:11:20] work sort of focused on- Mm-hmm ... when you're doing research, you know? [00:11:23] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And how does that translate [00:11:25] clinically- [00:11:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... to a certain extent? Yeah, so two things. So I'm, I tend to research actually how health [00:11:30] systems and how our, how, um, our communities and our belief [00:11:35] systems interact with the health system- Mm ... to create, unfortunately, a lot of delays in care. And [00:11:40] then I also do a lot of work on how our technologies like ultrasound- Yeah [00:11:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: and our diagnostic [00:11:45] systems do or don't work- Ooh, that's gonna be interesting ... especially for women of color. Yes. And so, um-[00:11:50] [00:11:51] Dr. Kemi Doll: One of the things I think we can start with is this idea [00:11:55] of, um, uterine cancer and diagnosis. Okay. And so, um, I'm a gynecologic oncologist- Mm-hmm ... so [00:12:00] I spend most of my time taking care of women with, with gynecologic cancers, the most common of which is [00:12:05] uterine cancer- Mm-hmm ... which, you know, most people don't realize. [00:12:06] Dr. Kemi Doll: They think it's cervical, but it's not. [00:12:08] Dr. Taz: Right, right. [00:12:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, [00:12:10] uterine cancer is diagnosed through post-menopausal bleeding. So a woman is done with menopause, and then she [00:12:15] starts to have a few drops of blood again. And we have an assumption in medicine that if that happens, a [00:12:20] woman would run to the doctor. [00:12:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:12:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: That assumption does not take into account a lot of women have [00:12:25] negative experiences when they go to the gynecologist. Right. A lot of women don't even have a gynecologist anymore after [00:12:30] they've had a baby. And we are taught, again, to just manage things- Mm ... that [00:12:35] go on down there. [00:12:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:12:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: So if you have a little bit of bleeding and you're not cramping, you're not in pain, [00:12:40] you might just keep moving with your life. [00:12:41] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:12:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: So the way that our diagnostic system works [00:12:45] is that when you come in, we're supposed to do an ultrasound, and that ultrasound is supposed to tell us whether there's any [00:12:50] risk that you might have cancer. [00:12:51] Dr. Taz: And what are you looking for historically on that ultrasound? [00:12:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: We're looking for the [00:12:55] thickness- Mm-hmm [00:12:55] Dr. Kemi Doll: of the uterine lining. [00:12:56] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:12:57] Dr. Kemi Doll: So we call it the endometrial stripe, the thickness of [00:13:00] that. If it's under four millimeters, you're supposed to have a 0% chance of having uterine cancer, [00:13:05] except all of that research was not done on women of color. [00:13:07] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:13:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: Especially not done on Black [00:13:10] women. [00:13:10] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:13:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: Exactly. So you know what should- [00:13:12] Dr. Taz: Wait, who is the sample size then? [00:13:14] Dr. Taz: Who are they [00:13:15] looking [00:13:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: at? It was done in Scandinavia- Okay ... primarily, so mostly Caucasian women. Okay. And there was one study from [00:13:20] Hong Kong. Wow. Think about how many people that leaves out. Right. They also excluded women with [00:13:25] fibroids. [00:13:25] Dr. Taz: Why? Okay. Why would you do [00:13:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: that? 70% of Black women have fibroids. They're the [00:13:30] highest risk. [00:13:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: 80%. Yes. So, um, and it was really oriented time [00:13:35] towards a certain kind of uterine cancer, not to get into the weeds- Right ... that is less common in women of color. [00:13:39] Dr. Taz: [00:13:40] Right. [00:13:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: So what happened was over time, over and over again, even [00:13:45] when coming for care, Black women would get these ultrasounds and then get reassured- Mm [00:13:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: that everything's [00:13:50] fine. You don't have cancer. And then take years to come back after now I'm really bleeding, now I'm having a [00:13:55] lot of cramping. They'd be diagnosed at later stages, and they would die. [00:13:58] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:13:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: And so this is why right [00:14:00] now in 2026, Black women have a two times chance higher of dying [00:14:05] after uterine cancer diagnosis, and this is the number one climbing cancer in this [00:14:10] country. [00:14:10] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:14:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: It is more common than colon cancer among women. So I'm not trying to scare people, but I'm, I'm [00:14:15] in... I'm giving you a picture of what happens when we forget womb health. [00:14:20] Most people don't know that uterine cancer is more common than colon cancer. Why is that? [00:14:24] Dr. Taz: I don't know, [00:14:25] but I will tell you this just from practice. [00:14:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah, go ahead. Well, this has bothered me, and you probably have a better [00:14:30] answer to it. So we have this checklist, right, of preventive screenings. Yes. Like we're set up as like whole family- Yes ... so we do [00:14:35] whole family care. So when women come in and I'm going through the list of preventive screenings to make sure they've [00:14:40] had everything like colonoscopy check, mammogram check- Yes [00:14:42] Dr. Taz: you know, all that other stuff, there's no standard of care [00:14:45] that I'm aware of- Yep ... unless I'm behind, of screening the uterus. Correct. [00:14:50] So what I'm having women do, which you can probably correct me on if it's not the right tool- Mm-hmm ... what I'm having women [00:14:55] do is that minimum every three years- Mm-hmm ... I don't care if you're [00:15:00] 40, 50, 60, 70- Mm-hmm [00:15:00] Dr. Taz: I'm sending them in for a pelvic ultrasound- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... if they still have their uterus. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? That's [00:15:05] just sort of an arbitrary thing I brought up on, you know- Yeah ... I kind of made up on my own- Yeah ... just watching women and [00:15:10] watching what we were dealing with. Yeah. What would you say to that? [00:15:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: I would say I don't think it's crazy. So, um, [00:15:15] I, so, so this is what I would say, a few things. [00:15:18] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:15:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: One [00:15:20] is that a lot of women go undiagnosed for a long time with conditions because [00:15:25] they think everything's normal. Right. They have learned a standard of normal that is wrong, [00:15:30] right? So they don't realize that their pain or cramping is to the extent to which [00:15:35] there sh- this should be evaluated, or they don't realize you are bleeding so much you might be anemic. [00:15:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:15:40] So I think it is actually incumbent upon us doctors to take a further step instead of [00:15:45] waiting for somebody to say, "Hey, something's wrong." The second thing is that, um- [00:15:50] You know, my, honestly my very, um, peer rev- [00:15:55] like peer reviewed, very scientific- Yeah ... very like traditional- Yes ... colleagues might get upset with me [00:16:00] about this, and I think that's okay because- They always mad at me, it's all [00:16:02] Dr. Taz: right. [00:16:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. It's, I think, I think- I think we have to figure out- You're in safe [00:16:05] space. We have to figure out how to bridge the gap- Yeah ... is what I'm saying. Yeah. And we're in a time where [00:16:10] people want information about their bodies. We, people are really, really [00:16:15] motivated right now- Right ... [00:16:15] Dr. Taz: to understand like what's going on with their- [00:16:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. [00:16:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: They want information, right? And we have to [00:16:20] get away a little bit from this idea of, well, when we studied looking at ultrasounds in [00:16:25] 50-year-old women and we could not detect that we found anything, that's one thing to say [00:16:30] maybe it doesn't decrease uterine cancer rates. But that's not the same thing as somebody having a better [00:16:35] understanding of what's going on. [00:16:35] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:16:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: Maybe they understand, you know that you have a polyp, and it's probably [00:16:40] okay, but if you ever have this symptom, then we should do something about it. Or maybe they learn you have a two centimeter [00:16:45] fibroid and it's asymptomatic. That's great, right? Right. However, if it's that way now, [00:16:50] you might decide to start taking vitamin D. [00:16:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: You might decide to do things that you know are [00:16:55] helpful to halt fibroid growth before it gets symptomatic. [00:16:58] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:16:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: That is reasonable. Yeah. [00:17:00] I think that we need to be in a place where we're more in partnership with [00:17:05] patients, and sometimes that means offering them information even if we [00:17:10] think this isn't telling me anything. [00:17:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: So that's what I would say to you. I think every three years is totally [00:17:15] reasonable. I mean, that doesn't sound crazy to me at all. [00:17:18] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this [00:17:20] and thinking, "I know something is off in my body, but I don't know where to [00:17:25] start," this is for you That's why I created the Circle. The [00:17:30] Circle is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding your body [00:17:35] from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real-life guidance [00:17:40] that you can actually use. [00:17:41] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and consistency and support [00:17:45] beyond the exam room, and maybe outside of all the different appointments and [00:17:50] experts that you've been running around to. You can try the Circle with a one-month trial [00:17:55] using the promo code podcast at [00:18:00] wholeplus.co/circle. [00:18:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: Again, that's Whole Plus, [00:18:05] wholeplus.co/circle. [00:18:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: All right, let's jump back into the episode. [00:18:08] Dr. Taz: Well, I'm glad, and then the [00:18:10] other thing that sort of I've noticed, and I'm sure you have too, is that with this explosion around [00:18:15] HRT, right? Yes. [00:18:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. Like hormones for everybody. Let's talk about that too. [00:18:17] Dr. Taz: Like- [00:18:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: Another reason to do ultrasounds. Yeah ... [00:18:19] Dr. Taz: [00:18:20] why would you do hormones for everybody at some of these doses, right, when you have a [00:18:25] thickened endometrial lining to begin with? [00:18:26] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. Or fibroids. Dr. Taz, I keep bringing this up. [00:18:28] Dr. Taz: No, I'm just saying. [00:18:30] This is so- I mean, like- No, this is so important ... right now it's like, "I got that patch. I got..." I'm making fun of this. I do not mean... I'm all about hormones. No, [00:18:35] no, we all... Okay. I am all about hormones. 100%. I'm on hormones. Listen. I love 'em. [00:18:38] Dr. Taz: Hormones for [00:18:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: everybody. [00:18:39] Dr. Taz: Hormones for [00:18:40] everybody. However. However. Not where you, like, type in something and then get your [00:18:45] prescription in the mail without a proper screening. [00:18:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: I'm very concerned about this. I just wanna say, [00:18:50] again, as a gynecologic oncologist, and I wanna be really clear about this, 'cause I agree with you, I am not [00:18:55] anti-HRT. [00:18:56] Dr. Kemi Doll: I think people should be on hormones. I do not think women should suffer through menopause. [00:19:00] And we are missing the conversation about the womb and menopause. Yes. I am [00:19:05] not hearing people talk about the fact that- 100% ... uterine cancer is absolutely a risk when you're [00:19:10] on HRT if you're on estrogen without progesterone. [00:19:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. Yet women are being [00:19:15] given estrogen without progesterone who still have a uterus. [00:19:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:19:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: I'm talking to women who [00:19:20] say, "Well, I was given both, but the progesterone gave me some side effects, so I dropped that one." Mm-hmm. They have no [00:19:25] idea that it's there to prevent cancer. [00:19:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:19:27] Dr. Kemi Doll: And I don't think I'm being, [00:19:30] um, I don't think I'm being fear-mongering when I say- If uterine cancer is on the [00:19:35] rise, and it is, it's the number one cancer on the rise. [00:19:38] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:19:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: It's one in [00:19:40] 32 women, and it will be one in 17 by 2050. [00:19:43] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:19:43] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. It [00:19:45] will be the second most common cancer among women by 2050. It's already more common than [00:19:50] colon cancer, and right now we are in a place where everybody is getting hormones. [00:19:55] And like you said, many are not getting exams and they're not getting ultrasounds. [00:19:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: I think it's [00:20:00] reasonable to sound maybe not an alarm, but a flag- Right ... to say, "Hey, if you still [00:20:05] have your uterus, you need to make sure you had a very clear conversation about what [00:20:10] doses am I on, what is gonna protect the endometrium or that uterus, and [00:20:15] how are we gonna monitor it to make sure that there are no issues?" [00:20:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: 'Cause I, unfortunately I have [00:20:20] heard stories. My gynecology colleagues are telling me- [00:20:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:20:22] Dr. Kemi Doll: listen, women are coming in with estrogen levels at [00:20:25] 100- [00:20:25] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:20:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: no progesterone- Right ... and a thickened stripe at 62. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my [00:20:30] gosh. [00:20:30] Dr. Taz: And I'm seeing that in practice too, by the- [00:20:31] Dr. Kemi Doll: You're seeing that too ... by the way. [00:20:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: So yes, thank you. I'm seeing the exact same thing. Yep. So I just, again, [00:20:35] it's about the balance of things and about, um About bringing the womb back into the [00:20:40] conversation. [00:20:41] Dr. Taz: Well, let's go back to the womb- Yes ... for a second. [00:20:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. I [00:20:43] Dr. Taz: have so many questions. Okay. But going [00:20:45] back to the womb, you talk about there's a crisis- Yeah [00:20:48] Dr. Taz: when it comes to the womb [00:20:50] of Black women. Yeah. Right? I think you, uh, you have a term for it as well. But, you know, in [00:20:55] general- Mm-hmm ... when we look at the stats on h- the health of Black women across the board, right? Yeah. They [00:21:00] have the highest sort of morbidity and mortality when it comes to childbirth. Yeah. [00:21:04] Dr. Taz: They ha- [00:21:05] they're very behind when it comes to many of the other markers around women's health in general. [00:21:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:21:09] Dr. Taz: You [00:21:10] know, we know in the research and we know clinically that they're suffering from fibroids- Yeah ... and, you know, [00:21:15] a lot of issues with endometriosis. Yes. Ovarian cyst, you know. Yes. A lot of these different [00:21:20] conditions. [00:21:20] Dr. Taz: And the answers for most of them that, at least again I'm [00:21:25] aware of, is take it out. You know, uh, myomectomies take the fibroids [00:21:30] out. Yeah. Hysterectomies take the uterus out. [00:21:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:21:32] Dr. Taz: So let's go back to what's happening with the [00:21:35] womb of Black women- [00:21:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... [00:21:37] Dr. Taz: today. [00:21:37] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:21:38] Dr. Taz: Why are they having such an [00:21:40] issue- [00:21:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... [00:21:40] Dr. Taz: in comparison- [00:21:41] Dr. Kemi Doll: To others [00:21:42] Dr. Taz: to the others? [00:21:43] Dr. Kemi Doll: Let's take fibroids. [00:21:43] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:21:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. [00:21:45] So fibroids, um, fibroids grow because of actually a single [00:21:50] cell. There's a s- a single cell will be mutated. It's a muscle cell in the uterus. It'll have [00:21:55] a number, there's a number of different kinds of mutations that can happen, and once that muscle stem cell [00:22:00] changes, it will start to grow basically out of proportion and create a fibroid. [00:22:03] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. That's what happens. [00:22:05] Fibroids in most women start in the 30- in their 30s and grow [00:22:10] from there. In Black women, fibroids start as early as the late teens- Mm ... and early 20s [00:22:15] years. Yep. So it's actually true that, like, 80% of women will have fibroids at some point in their life [00:22:20] because again, these little mutations happen, they grow, and then they go away. [00:22:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: So half of fibroids will [00:22:25] grow and disappear, grow and disappear. This is why I tell people, "Don't freak out- Right ... if you see one." For Black women, [00:22:30] they start earlier. Why? They grow. We don't know. [00:22:33] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:22:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: We don't know why they start [00:22:35] earlier. [00:22:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: But if you think about the fact that they are basically random mutations that are [00:22:40] happening, there's probably an element of environmental influence there. [00:22:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:22:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: As [00:22:45] well as a predisposition, because we know fibroids tend to run in families as well. [00:22:50] And so when that happens, you have Black women who now have larger fibroids that started [00:22:55] earlier that are now more symptomatic earlier, except they're [00:23:00] not seen as vulnerable. They're not going to the doctor, or when they're going to the doctor they're getting [00:23:05] dismissed. [00:23:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: So paradoxically, they're getting treatment later. [00:23:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:23:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: So by the time somebody is really [00:23:10] taking them seriously to say, "Oh my gosh, there's a problem here. Let's do something about it," there's only the option of [00:23:15] hysterectomy. Mm. Or there's only the option of myomectomy. So I want the awareness to [00:23:20] recognize that if this is a problem that's happening in young Black women, we're s- we see these s- asymptomatic, [00:23:25] they start off with no symptoms fibroids in Black women in their early 20s, that's when we should be paying [00:23:30] attention. [00:23:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's when we should be starting the therapies that we know can halt fibroid growth- [00:23:34] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:23:35] [00:23:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: and give them more options instead of waiting until things are symptomatic. [00:23:40] Um, so that's, that's like one of the... That's like, I think, a really good example. [00:23:45] There are a lot of hypotheses about, like, what's going on, and I'm gonna do a little bit of, like, science plus woo woo.[00:23:50] [00:23:50] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:23:50] Dr. Kemi Doll: I love it. Right? [00:23:51] Dr. Taz: You, you know that's me. [00:23:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's right. That's, we, we love this. That's my [00:23:54] Dr. Taz: jam. [00:23:54] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's my jam. [00:23:55] Right. Yeah. Okay, so, so for example, there are things that we know that are associated with [00:24:00] fibroid growth. One of the things that's associated with fibroid growth and m- women with more [00:24:05] fibroids is chronic stress. [00:24:06] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:24:06] Dr. Kemi Doll: We also understand that Black women experience a different kind [00:24:10] of chronic stress in this country because of the intersection of racism and sexism- Mm-hmm ... that we deal with. Mm-hmm. And that happens from [00:24:15] an early age. Right. Another thing that's associated with fibroids is something called [00:24:20] anger squelching. [00:24:20] Dr. Kemi Doll: Have you heard about this? [00:24:22] Dr. Taz: No, but I'm gonna go on a rabbit hole with you in just a [00:24:25] minute, so I don't wanna- Okay ... interrupt you 'cause you're gonna- So- ... you're gonna die in a second, but keep [00:24:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: going. Okay. [00:24:30] So anger squelching, it's come from the psychology literature. When you, and when instead of releasing [00:24:35] your anger, instead of expressing your anger, you suppress it. [00:24:38] Dr. Taz: Yep. [00:24:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right? [00:24:39] Dr. Taz: Yep. [00:24:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: Think [00:24:40] about the angry Black woman stereotype. Yep. You're not allowed to be angry. There's lots of consequences if people [00:24:45] feel like you're doing too much. Women with high levels of anger squelching have more [00:24:50] fibroids. Associated with more fibroids and fibroid growth. So [00:24:55] what we don't know yet, 'cause I wanna be really clear, I can't trace to you right now yet the [00:25:00] mechanism of, like, this emotion, this neurotransmitter, this molecule, this fibroid. [00:25:04] Dr. Kemi Doll: But you start [00:25:05] to see those patterns, and then it's not shocking to me that 80% of Black women have fibroids, and that they're [00:25:10] bigger, and that they're more intense. Yeah. So I like to open up the conversation to just [00:25:15] say, "Listen, there's a lot of science going on in how to treat these. There's a lot going on in figuring out how to stop, [00:25:20] stop growth, and I love that work, and th- we can get into that. [00:25:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: And we have to [00:25:25] acknowledge that the data shows that these are not, this is not just [00:25:30] a unilateral, like, scientific condition that is not connected to our envi- our [00:25:35] environment. [00:25:36] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:25:37] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. Are you ready? Okay, I'm ready. [00:25:38] Dr. Taz: All right. [00:25:40] Anger squelching. Yes. We gotta talk about anger squelching. Okay, let's talk about it. [00:25:43] Dr. Taz: All right. Because get ready. [00:25:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:25:45] Okay. [00:25:45] Dr. Taz: In Chinese medicine- [00:25:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay ... [00:25:47] Dr. Taz: the liver- [00:25:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes ... [00:25:48] Dr. Taz: holds anger- [00:25:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:25:50] Mm ... [00:25:50] Dr. Taz: and is the seed of anger. So people with repressed anger- Wow ... or anger that's developed even [00:25:55] intergenerationally- Yes ... that's held, according to Chinese medicine, which is- Yes ... a more energetic system of- Yes ... [00:26:00] medicine, right? [00:26:00] Dr. Taz: Sure. That's held in the liver. [00:26:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. [00:26:02] Dr. Taz: Now, when you apply kind of the chemistry and the physiology [00:26:05] to this- [00:26:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm ... [00:26:05] Dr. Taz: when the liver get, and this is again still in the Chinese medicine world- [00:26:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: I'm [00:26:09] Dr. Taz: listening ... when the [00:26:10] liver gets stagnant- [00:26:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... [00:26:11] Dr. Taz: or sluggish- Yeah ... it cannot metabolize the hormones well. They call [00:26:15] that liver stasis. [00:26:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: Listen. [00:26:16] Dr. Taz: That liver stasis- [00:26:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: Look at [00:26:18] Dr. Taz: us ... leads to estrogen [00:26:20] dominance, I don't know how you feel- Mm ... about that theory- Mm ... which is a stored form of estrogen. Mm-hmm. Essentially, you're holding [00:26:25] onto the metabolites of estrogen. Mm-hmm. You're not able to metabolize them effectively. Mm-hmm. Which then in turn [00:26:30] triggers the mutations that cause fibroids. [00:26:32] Dr. Taz: Interesting. That's the Chinese medicine interpretation- Interesting ... [00:26:35] of fibroids. So- So they have a lot of herbal formulas that would, like- [00:26:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... [00:26:38] Dr. Taz: target this, but [00:26:40] then the Chinese medicine practitioner would be like, "Okay, take this herb." [00:26:43] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. [00:26:44] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:26:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. "[00:26:45] [00:26:45] Dr. Taz: Follow this diet- Mm-hmm ... to help improve- Mm ... the health of the liver- Mm-hmm [00:26:48] Dr. Taz: to improve your fibroid." [00:26:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. [00:26:50] [00:26:50] Dr. Taz: Please also, let's work on your shen or your anger- [00:26:54] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:26:55] Yeah ... [00:26:55] Dr. Taz: to help release that to really bring about a healing response. [00:26:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: That is so [00:27:00] fascinating to me. I have so many things I wanna say. Yeah. So several... First of all, I love this. I [00:27:03] Dr. Taz: know. [00:27:03] Dr. Kemi Doll: Because I can't- Science with a [00:27:05] little bit of woo Yeah. [00:27:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: I can't, because that's me. I love it. I love it. I literally, I literally said in my book. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like a woo woo [00:27:10] girl- Yeah ... with a scientific heart of gold. Uh, [00:27:11] Dr. Taz: same. [00:27:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: But like, and we have- 100%. 100%. And don't you think we need, we have to have [00:27:15] more conversation? You have to have that. That's [00:27:15] Dr. Taz: the purpose of this show. [00:27:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: And- [00:27:17] Dr. Taz: That's the purpose of all of it, [00:27:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: yeah ... and yeah, also, you ostracize people. [00:27:20] Right. [00:27:20] Dr. Taz: And I'm like, [00:27:20] Dr. Kemi Doll: we, [00:27:20] Dr. Taz: everybody actually wants the same thing. [00:27:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. Everybody wants good [00:27:22] Dr. Taz: health. We're on the same team. [00:27:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: We're on the same team. Yeah. Different [00:27:25] ways to get there, and I think we can unite, and that we don't wanna cause harm. [00:27:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. That's the main thing. So these are the [00:27:30] things that come up when you say that. One is that, um, one, I think that's fascinating. [00:27:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:27:34] Dr. Kemi Doll: Two, [00:27:35] I always wanna say, I wanna be careful to say I don't think this are women, this is women's fault. [00:27:38] Dr. Taz: No. [00:27:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: This is not me saying- No, no, no, no, no ... [00:27:40] you're angry. If you were just less stressed, go meditate, and these will go away. [00:27:43] Dr. Kemi Doll: But it's actually [00:27:45] recognizing that, can we be empathetic to like- Yes ... it's not easy to be a woman in this society. No. [00:27:50] It's not easy to be a woman of color in this society, and that has [00:27:55] physiologic and biologic consequences. We already know from heart disease. [00:27:57] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:27:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: We know from hypertension. [00:28:00] There, we, we can trace these things, um, like from start to finish in some [00:28:05] diseases, and we're working on the other ones. [00:28:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: So I wanna just make sure that people listening know [00:28:10] that this isn't about blaming individuals. No, no, no, no, no. 'Cause I think sometimes that's the pushback. It's actually to me about saying it's blaming [00:28:15] society, like this is part of the soup that we swim in. The second thing I wanna say is about [00:28:20] estrogen dominance a little bit, and this is where I'll push back a little bit- [00:28:23] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:28:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: is just to say that- [00:28:25] We see fibroids develop, large ones, horrible ones, in women who have, like, never taken [00:28:30] birth control. They've never done any, they've never taken any- Right ... exogenous estrogen. And we d- we, so we [00:28:35] see women with no fibroids ever who've been on birth control, like, every day of their life since they were 12. [00:28:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:28:40] So I wanna be careful about people thinking, like, estrogen, me taking estrogen or estrogen- [00:28:45] No ... equals fibroids. [00:28:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:28:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. Fibroids are actually, they grow from this very complex [00:28:50] interplay between estrogen and progesterone. Estrogen kind of primes the fibroid [00:28:55] to receive progesterone as a growth stimulant, is kind of how it works. [00:28:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: Interesting. So it's the two of them [00:29:00] together. Okay. Um, and it is true that when we've measured levels of [00:29:05] estrogen and progesterone in women, they don't correlate to fibroid growth, size, or [00:29:10] anything. Mm-hmm. So it's something... What that means is that it's not that those hormones don't matter, but it's [00:29:15] actually about how the fibroid receptors are interacting with your hormone levels. [00:29:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: With those hormones. [00:29:20] Okay. So somebody who has really sensitive fibroid receptors might have super low estrogen and [00:29:25] progesterone, and the fibroid is like, "Give it to me." Exactly. "I'm growing." Yep. And I've seen that. And somebody else- Yep ... has super high levels, and they [00:29:30] might have one fibroid that has, like, one receptor, and it's, like, barely impacting it. [00:29:34] Dr. Taz: Do we have a [00:29:35] test to test fibroid receptor sensitivity? [00:29:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: No, girl. Okay. So this is what we have to work on, right? I just asking. So it's like, I [00:29:40] know. [00:29:40] Dr. Taz: Asking for a friend. [00:29:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: I know, asking for a friend, right? Yeah. But it's, I say that not, like, it's like, [00:29:45] it's, like, all the yes and, which is that this is why we need these, we need these [00:29:50] systems so people can feel like, "Okay, what can I do?" [00:29:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:29:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: And I start to say, like, I put in my book, one of [00:29:55] my things is, like, eliminate stress. Yeah. Like, we gotta work on that. I'm not gonna leave that off the list when I [00:30:00] know that this is associated. [00:30:01] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:30:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: And then also, there are some, there are [00:30:05] some medications, and there are some, um, vitamins that [00:30:10] we do know can halt and slow down fibroid growth. [00:30:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: And so, [00:30:13] Dr. Taz: like- Well, let's talk about those. [00:30:14] Dr. Kemi Doll: Oh, okay. Yeah. [00:30:14] Dr. Taz: [00:30:15] Yeah. Vitamin D. Vitamin [00:30:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: D. [00:30:17] Dr. Taz: Vitamin D is that girl we all- You know, vitamin D- Yes ... is chronically low in a lot of- [00:30:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:30:20] Yes ... [00:30:20] Dr. Taz: my, uh, [00:30:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: Black women. Your patients. And Black women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's chronically low. Why? And, um, the [00:30:25] theory, and I will say that I'm kind of, like, sometimes I get a little suspect- Yeah [00:30:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: suspicious of this, and I'll tell you why. Yeah. The [00:30:30] theory is that, you know, we have more melanated skin. [00:30:31] Dr. Taz: Right, so we don't [00:30:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: absorb the sun. So we absorb less. We absorb- I [00:30:33] Dr. Taz: never really bought that theory. [00:30:34] Dr. Kemi Doll: Thank [00:30:35] you. 'Cause first of all- Yeah ... like, so you're telling me that all my ancestors- Right ... had the vitamin deficient for the last 2,000- Right [00:30:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: you know, thousands and [00:30:40] thousands of years? Right. Like, that makes no sense to me. But- [00:30:41] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:30:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: I acknowledge that's the theory. Um- [00:30:45] Dietary things can also, as you know- Right ... like, depending on, like, the quality of your diet and stuff, it [00:30:50] can be low. So that's not my area of expertise. I'm not sure why it's low. [00:30:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: But I know that the studies [00:30:55] looking at vitamin D and fibroids, fibroids do not... I mean, vitamin D does not [00:31:00] shrink fibroids, but it halts growth. [00:31:02] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:31:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: So it's very... I s- I spoke to [00:31:05] many phys- gynecologists who only do fibroid care, 'cause I wanted to really get this right. Right, right, right. [00:31:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:31:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:31:10] And they were saying yes. [00:31:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: Like, they tell all their patients, "Listen, while we're figuring out what to do, at least get your [00:31:15] vitamin D levels up because we can s- we can slow things down." Right. And we've seen that in studies. [00:31:20] So that's really important. Okay. And any woman that has concerns about that, I would say get that vitamin D going.[00:31:25] [00:31:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: Another, um- When we think about actual fibroid growth, there's kind [00:31:30] of two medications and, um, I'm forget- the generic names are very [00:31:35] long. I, I'm literally forgetting them right now. No, no, it's- I feel really bad. No, but- Oh, we have rigolix and something else anyway. Oh, God, I [00:31:40] forget that too. I forget. Like- [00:31:41] Dr. Taz: Rigolix [00:31:41] Dr. Kemi Doll: maybe? [00:31:41] Dr. Kemi Doll: There's ... But they're combination. Okay. And they're a co- and there is actually a [00:31:45] very specific targeted combination of a certain type of [00:31:50] progestin that's kind of like more of an androgen- Mm-hmm ... estrogen. And then another [00:31:55] medication that kind of halts fibroid, um, vascular growth. Mm-hmm. Like it stops them from growing the blood [00:32:00] vessels- Right [00:32:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: that they need to keep growing. And those are both oral medications that do a very good job of- [00:32:05] They do ... halting and shrinking fibroid growth. So there are options that aren't just [00:32:10] surgery. [00:32:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:32:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: But the issue is that when you show up and your fibroids are already eight, [00:32:15] 10 centimeters- Right ... or you already have 35- Right [00:32:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: of them- [00:32:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:32:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: that's where it gets difficult, [00:32:20] and that's where, as a physician, I do say like, "We can do the teas, and we can do all these other, and we can [00:32:25] do the supplements." Right. But at this stage, we're beyond- I said the same thing ... right, we're just beyond where ... And it's [00:32:30] like, what can we do to either, like, do a myomectomy or, like, bring things back and then [00:32:35] start from there? [00:32:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, because once, once they're at a certain size, [00:32:40] unfortunately, that s- that original stem cell, you're not gonna get to it. If you think about- That's been- ... a stem cell in the [00:32:45] middle of ... Like, you're not gonna get to it anymore. That's [00:32:46] Dr. Taz: been my clinical experience. Like- Right? ... you know, patients come in all the time wanting a [00:32:50] more holistic approach to- Yeah [00:32:51] Dr. Taz: managing fibroids. [00:32:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:32:52] Dr. Taz: And we, we are [00:32:55] successful as long as those fibroids are under about six- [00:32:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's [00:32:59] Dr. Taz: right ... you know. So to- Four [00:33:00] to six is what we usually say. Four to six. Four to six centimeters. We're [00:33:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: successful. [00:33:02] Dr. Taz: Yeah. But the minute you've got like, you know, 10 [00:33:05] centimeters- Exactly ... you have multiple ... I had one patient describe her uterus to me as like a, like literally an [00:33:10] apple sack- Yes [00:33:10] Dr. Taz: is what she described it as. You know, I'm like, at that point- [00:33:14] Dr. Kemi Doll: It's too late ... [00:33:15] [00:33:15] Dr. Taz: it's, like, very difficult- It is ... for these things to turn it around and for you to maintain the quality [00:33:20] of life that I know you wanna maintain. That's exactly right. Yeah, so that's where this, like, middle road is so important, [00:33:25] right? [00:33:25] Dr. Taz: Like- [00:33:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: It is, and that's why we need to work together. [00:33:27] Dr. Taz: Right, [00:33:27] Dr. Kemi Doll: you know. Because it's like ... And this is why I ... [00:33:30] Again, I might get in trouble. This is why I'm not opposed to a woman at 22 being like, "I would like [00:33:35] an ultrasound just to see where I am." Yes. Why not? Because why not empower [00:33:38] Dr. Taz: her? Yeah. Yeah, [00:33:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: exactly. Um, you know, [00:33:40] like, why not? [00:33:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: It's something at least she knows about [00:33:41] Dr. Taz: it. Well, that was gonna be my next question. Like, if you're saying this is showing up [00:33:45] as early as your late teens- Yeah ... why are we not doing routine ultrasounds on young [00:33:50] girls after they turn about 16 or so? [00:33:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: I have two theories. [00:33:53] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:33:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: So one is that [00:33:55] doctors don't like to find things that we feel like we can't do anything about. [00:33:58] Dr. Taz: Ah. [00:33:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: And a lot of the ... [00:34:00] Like, even the s- the studies I just shared with you, like, a lot of these things are- [00:34:05] Uh, most of the treatments are developed for people who are symptomatic and severely symptomatic. [00:34:09] Dr. Taz: [00:34:10] Right. [00:34:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: So- Not [00:34:10] Dr. Taz: preventative ... [00:34:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: not preventative. And so I wanna, you know, especially things are [00:34:15] different in internal medicine. [00:34:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: I just, I don't wanna paint all physicians- Right, right, [00:34:18] Dr. Taz: right ... with one [00:34:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: brush. No, no, no, no, no. But I just think- We're just talking [00:34:19] Dr. Taz: about [00:34:20] the [00:34:20] Dr. Kemi Doll: established standards ... I think it's fair to say in gynecology we have not had a very [00:34:25] strong focus on prevention outside of things like the HPV vaccine, which is great. [00:34:29] Dr. Kemi Doll: You know, like- Mm, mm-hmm ... and [00:34:30] Pap smears. Like, it's not like we don't do it at all. But when we think about endometriosis, fibroids, and stuff, there [00:34:35] has not been as much research and clinical focus on preventing those things. Right. [00:34:40] We focus on treating severe disease. And so I think that's part of it too, is that just, like, as a [00:34:45] physician culture- Right [00:34:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: right, we don't like to find things we can't do anything about. Mm-hmm. And what I used to learn [00:34:50] is that, like, well- That doesn't, like there's no reason to find that because it's just [00:34:55] gonna make somebody anxious. There's nothing you can do, right? And it [00:35:00] probably isn't gonna bother them anyway. But as a Black woman, I have to say, I [00:35:05] started to shift on that 'cause I'm like, you know what? [00:35:06] Dr. Kemi Doll: We say that, but then when they come in bothered, [00:35:10] we don't believe them until they're severe. [00:35:12] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:35:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: And then once they're severe, we have one solution. Right. [00:35:15] Take it out. [00:35:15] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:35:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: So there's something wrong with this narrative. Yeah. And I am challenging us to say that's not [00:35:20] quite the right, the narrative, and it makes sense, especially that women of color feel so neglected. [00:35:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:35:25] Absolutely. And it makes sense that they want to turn away to something else, and we [00:35:30] can do better. So, um, so yeah, it's... I'm passionate about it. And, and [00:35:35] then, well, I, we can keep going later, but I'll stop there. But yeah. [00:35:37] Dr. Taz: No, I mean, it's, that's just interesting that you say [00:35:40] that, and I guess I have the luxury of kind of setting up my own ecosystem when it comes to how we take care [00:35:45] of patients- Yes [00:35:45] Dr. Taz: and all that other stuff. But I'm actually challenged [00:35:50] by the thing I don't know. [00:35:51] Dr. Kemi Doll: Me too. [00:35:52] Dr. Taz: You know what I mean? Mm. The thing I don't know has driven me for all [00:35:55] these years. Yes. You know? It's what drove me into the journals when Black women are coming in- Yes ... you [00:36:00] know, with these sort of- Yes ... very similar patterns, you know? [00:36:02] Dr. Taz: I agree. So the thing I don't know does not scare me, [00:36:05] and maybe it's a problem with our education system that we- we've been sort of trained to fear [00:36:10] that, but we should embrace the thing we don't know. [00:36:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. [00:36:12] Dr. Taz: Because it's going to lead to the next frontier, [00:36:15] you know? [00:36:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. And also, that's where the best ideas, scientific insights come from. [00:36:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: Like, I [00:36:20] think s- I think there's nothing better than biomedical science for a mechanism. Right. Like, I think there's just... [00:36:25] It's something so cool to be able to understand, like something from like the DNA strand to the protein to the this to the [00:36:30] that. I try to remind people that takes decades and decades and decades. [00:36:34] Dr. Kemi Doll: So when you just [00:36:35] start, like last year- Yeah ... when we just started- Right ... it's gonna take a while. However, [00:36:40] I would offer that the ideas that [00:36:45] drive what the question is often come from the outside. [00:36:48] Dr. Taz: Yes. [00:36:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: You know what I mean? It's like- They always [00:36:50] do ... it's a both/and, yeah. Right. And so that we need to have more of an integrated [00:36:55] approach even when we think about research, because we'll get really interesting [00:37:00] ideas to follow, and then we can see, okay, what does the science show? [00:37:04] Dr. Kemi Doll: And [00:37:05] sometimes we'll research something and we'll be like, "Oh, well, the science shows there's nothing there." And it's like, well, [00:37:10] then we need... I always go, "Okay, well then, what is another way to ask the question?" Mm-hmm. Or like, [00:37:15] what was it about this group where everything, you know, we didn't see what we expected. [00:37:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: Like, [00:37:20] it's al- there's always another interesting question. [00:37:22] Dr. Taz: Right, [00:37:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: right. Um, and so yes, I don't [00:37:25] believe that we should continue. We should do things that we know, like, don't work, you know? And I do... [00:37:30] It's like in both areas that we've kind of set up here that we're saying are integrated, but, you know, [00:37:35] we've set them up as like Western biomedical framework. [00:37:37] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. And, uh, in both areas, I think the [00:37:40] practitioners that have ethics and that really want things to go well, they're [00:37:45] not interested in giving you things that don't work. Right. And however, [00:37:50] there's a lot to be explored about how things work, why things work. The placebo [00:37:55] effect, I'm sure you are very familiar with. [00:37:57] Dr. Taz: Oh, yeah. [00:37:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: I, I was always [00:38:00] taught that as something, like, very denigrated. Oh, negative. Like, "Oh, that's just placebo." Right, right. It's very negative. And I'm like, "Wait a minute." So by [00:38:05] placebo, meaning, like, the person basically got better on their own because they believed they could, that [00:38:10] is- [00:38:10] Dr. Taz: That's enough [00:38:10] Dr. Taz: that's huge. [00:38:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's [00:38:11] Dr. Taz: enough. [00:38:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: And also- Yeah. It is enough ... if I can tap into [00:38:15] the placebo effect- Right ... isn't that a good thing? [00:38:17] Dr. Taz: That's a good [00:38:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: thing. Isn't that am- Like, I think that's an amazing thing. [00:38:20] And how long has the tradition, how, in how many different cultures is the [00:38:25] idea of laying hands on somebody healing? [00:38:27] Dr. Kemi Doll: Is that not the placebo effect? Right. [00:38:30] Is that not... So even that, I feel like as, for [00:38:35] me, I identify as a scientist, and I'm like, "That is so interesting." And yes, of course, I'm [00:38:40] interested in things that outperform the placebo effect, but I'm not gonna denigrate it as a [00:38:45] problem. [00:38:45] Dr. Taz: Well, the placebo effect is simply the body's capacity to self-heal.[00:38:50] [00:38:50] Dr. Kemi Doll: Exactly. [00:38:50] Dr. Taz: And self-healing is really what all of our [00:38:55] ancient, you know- Yes ... medicine people- Yes ... any culture, any tradition, any religion really [00:39:00] advocated for. Mm-hmm. That it's within you. Yes. You know, go back to The Wizard of Oz. It's within you. Yes, yeah. You know, the [00:39:05] answer's within you. [00:39:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [00:39:06] Dr. Taz: So I mean, I think, you know, we got really, really far away from [00:39:10] that. [00:39:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. [00:39:10] Dr. Taz: We also don't wanna re-correct to the other side. We don't wanna go all the way to the other [00:39:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: side, [00:39:13] Dr. Taz: right. But I think the physician [00:39:15] community would serve everybody really well to be a guide in that. Yeah. Right? To be a [00:39:20] sound, trusted best friend guide. Yeah. You know, which is different. Here [00:39:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: are all the tools. [00:39:24] Dr. Taz: Correct. [00:39:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:39:25] I think about it that way, yeah. Yeah. It's like, listen, we certainly ... I tell people all the time, the biggest [00:39:30] red flag for anybody that you go see is that they have all the answers. [00:39:32] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:39:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: That is, I s- it's like- Right ... [00:39:35] I, like, regardless of whatever the background training is, because the body is way too complicated for [00:39:40] that. [00:39:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: Life is way- Too individualized ... it's too individualized. Right. There's, like, too much going on. However- [00:39:45] The another, like the green flag is somebody be able to tell you, "Listen, these are the tools that I have." [00:39:49] Dr. Taz: [00:39:50] Yeah. " [00:39:50] Dr. Kemi Doll: This is how I've seen them work. This is what that is based on, and this is why I think [00:39:55] it's worth you trying it, and this is how we're gonna reassess if it doesn't work." [00:39:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:39:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: Because [00:40:00] that's the other piece is that, like, I think, again, in all different types of clinics, environments, [00:40:05] people can get gaslit. "Well, if it's not working, it's you." Yeah. It's like, okay, hold on. [00:40:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:40:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: The patient is the [00:40:10] expert, and so in that sense, I, like I would ... I, why would I be against anything that's [00:40:15] working for somebody? [00:40:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, so when I was practicing, I would say that all the time. I would say, "First of all, let's talk [00:40:20] about ... I want you to know I'm curious about all the things you wanna do." Like as a cancer doctor, most [00:40:25] cancer patients are accessing some kind of alternative medicine in some way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If y- [00:40:30] especially if you define that as like acupuncture- Oh, yeah [00:40:31] Dr. Kemi Doll: everything, right? [00:40:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:32] Dr. Kemi Doll: So I'm like, I want to know, one is [00:40:35] 'cause I wanna make sure nothing you're doing might be interacting with what we're giving you, and then [00:40:40] two, if it works for you, I wanna know that. If another patient asks me, like, "What can I do?" I can share with them [00:40:45] like, "Listen, I don't know if this will help you, but this pa- this helped this patient." [00:40:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: A place that's [00:40:50] open like that is a place where people feel empowered and where we give the best care. [00:40:54] Dr. Taz: I love that, and [00:40:55] I hope that model is gonna be there for the future. I know I'm trying to build it. I know. And so many people are trying to build it, you [00:41:00] know, moving forward so that people have more options, more choice, more dialogue, right? [00:41:04] Dr. Taz: More [00:41:05] dialogue. And we have to have a system of medicine that, that actually rewards dialogue at the end of the [00:41:10] day. Yeah. It'll save so much money on the other end- That is so true ... if you could have these [00:41:15] conversations. [00:41:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: And they're rewarded. [00:41:16] Dr. Taz: In a relaxed manner- Oh my gosh ... and then make the right- Not time pressured [00:41:19] Dr. Taz: set of [00:41:20] choices, right? So- [00:41:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: Correct ... [00:41:21] Dr. Taz: but going back to the crisis of the Black womb- [00:41:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: Oh, yes ... [00:41:24] Dr. Taz: [00:41:25] I have two questions there. Mm-hmm. One, I read a study not too long ago, you probably saw the same one, that [00:41:30] talked about the chemicals- Mm-hmm. Yes ... in relaxers- Yeah ... some of the products [00:41:35] in makeup. Yes. Where, what's the story on that study? [00:41:38] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Is that, is that a link [00:41:40] to maybe some of this? [00:41:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. I think, um, yeah. It cer- first i- it certainly is. [00:41:45] So in, let's take hair relaxers. So in hair relaxers there's kind of like- [00:41:50] There's two different angles of concern about beauty products- Right ... we'll say [00:41:55] broadly, and, like, the reproductive system. One angle of concern are the [00:42:00] endocrine-disrupting chemicals. [00:42:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. So things that might mimic, in some way, hormones or might be [00:42:05] blocking hormone action in some way. And then the other category are just things that are [00:42:10] harm- like, cellularly toxic or harmful. In the hair [00:42:15] relaxer, um, conversation, it is mostly the latter category. So it's mostly, like, things that are just, like, [00:42:20] toxic in, in some way, shape, or form. [00:42:22] Dr. Kemi Doll: And what we found looking [00:42:25] specifically at women with regard to fibroids and with regard to [00:42:30] uterine cancer. [00:42:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:42:31] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, we-- There is a link between the specific [00:42:35] kinds of chemical hair relaxers that Black women are more likely to use, 'cause they're for very tightly c- [00:42:40] curled and coiled hair. [00:42:41] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:42:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: So they're very strong relaxers. [00:42:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: I think that's [00:42:45] very important. They're also more likely to cause burns on the scalp- [00:42:48] Dr. Taz: Oh, [00:42:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: wow ... because they're so [00:42:50] strong, and so they're easy to seep in through the skin barrier. Oh. So the exposure level [00:42:55] is higher. Is systemic. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So a very good study. This was actually done by the National, [00:43:00] um, Institute of Environmental Studies Found that Black women who had relaxers [00:43:05] more, six or more times a year, so they're going like every other month they're doing their chemical hair relaxing, [00:43:10] had a higher risk- Mm [00:43:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: of uterine cancer. [00:43:12] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:43:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: And it was very well done. This was like... [00:43:15] And then another, there was another group that runs something called the Black Women's Health Study. I talk [00:43:20] about this study a lot in the book, 'cause it's the only study we have with over 50,000 Black women. Oh, [00:43:24] Dr. Taz: wow. [00:43:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. Yes. [00:43:25] And it, I, I recommend everybody go look it up because it's not talked about that much, but it's a huge [00:43:30] study. [00:43:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: They followed them for over 20 years, and they collected a lot of information about [00:43:35] fibroids, cycles, all this stuff. So the Black Women's Health Study went back to their data, and they [00:43:40] asked the same question, and they found the same link. Mm. So there's clearly, it's about a 17% increased [00:43:45] risk of uterine cancer with the use of hair relaxers in Black women, especially frequent [00:43:50] use. [00:43:50] Dr. Taz: What's the dominant chemical in the hair relaxers? [00:43:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: I don't remember. [00:43:52] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:43:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: So is there a- Um, because they're all... [00:43:55] Yes, also, sorry, I'm, I didn't mean to in-interrupt you. Yeah, yeah. There are several different ones. Okay. And I just can't [00:44:00] remember, but there's a few that are, like, probably the most, like the agents of most concern. [00:44:03] Dr. Taz: Are there new products on the [00:44:05] market that- [00:44:05] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes ... [00:44:05] Dr. Taz: are a little bit gentler? [00:44:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. Okay. So like, you know, a Black woman, like a silk [00:44:10] press. Yeah. Like a keratin treatment. Like these things are different. [00:44:12] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:44:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, and they're used. And also a lot of [00:44:15] women do, um, they, they end up with, um, what we call mechanical straightening, right? [00:44:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. Right. [00:44:20] So like, and it kind of gives you the same look. There's no concern with that. [00:44:23] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:44:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: So we're really talking about [00:44:25] classic chemical no-lye relaxers. That's what we're really talking about. [00:44:29] Dr. Taz: Got [00:44:30] it. [00:44:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, and so I tend to say, you know, I feel comfortable now saying, recommending Black [00:44:35] women avoid those. [00:44:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: It doesn't mean you can't straighten your hair- Right ... but just don't do it that way. That [00:44:37] Dr. Taz: way. [00:44:38] Dr. Kemi Doll: That way. Gotcha. Yes. [00:44:39] Dr. Taz: [00:44:40] Okay. And then the other question I had, just more of a curiosity- Mm-hmm ... for me, a lot of my patients will go [00:44:45] get myomectomies- Yeah ... but then they're right back in the- Yeah ... same spot. Yeah. [00:44:48] Dr. Taz: What's happening there? [00:44:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah, so with [00:44:50] myomectomies, thank you for asking this question. So it's when you [00:44:55] have, um, myomectomies are most successful- About half of people who [00:45:00] have a myomectomy will have their fibroid grow back. So I try to make people clear about [00:45:05] that, 'cause I'm like, so that's half that don't and then half do. [00:45:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. So what, how can we know which half you're gonna be [00:45:10] in? There are a few ways. One is myomectomies are most successful when you have [00:45:15] one dominant fibroid. [00:45:16] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: So it's like it's one fibroid, it's six, seven, eight, nine, [00:45:20] 10 centimeters. You don't have a uterus riddled with fibroids. So that's more [00:45:25] successful. [00:45:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: When you have multiple fibroids, multiple large and small fibroids, it's [00:45:30] much less ... It's much more likely they're gonna grow back, 'cause remember why fibroids grow, one [00:45:35] single stem cell. [00:45:35] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: So when you have like 10 fibroids, you're banking on you're [00:45:40] removing every single one of those stem cells. Those individual different mutations that created each one of those [00:45:45] fibroids. [00:45:45] Dr. Kemi Doll: It's a lot less likely that's gonna happen. It's a lot more likely that you have small [00:45:50] fibroids that aren't actually removed, and so you haven't removed all of the stem cells. Interesting. Does that make sense? Yes. So that's a [00:45:55] big reason why it grows back. That's an important [00:45:57] Dr. Taz: differentiation there, [00:45:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: yeah. [00:45:58] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes, and why it's not [00:46:00] unreasonable to pursue a myomectomy potentially if you have one [00:46:05] dominant fibroid that is not responding to medical treatment. Gotcha. 'Cause you're actually in the group that's most [00:46:10] likely to succeed- Mm ... with the surgery, right? Um, so I ... [00:46:15] One of the issues with that, with that regrowth, and I get why women would choose it. [00:46:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: I'm, [00:46:20] I understand- [00:46:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah, [00:46:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: yeah ... is that we have women that are doing myomectomies with lots of fibroids, [00:46:25] and the success rate is gonna be lower. The second, um- [00:46:30] The second, um, issue around myomectomy is what happens [00:46:35] afterwards. [00:46:35] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:46:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: So what we also want is if your fibroids are gonna grow back, we would at [00:46:40] least like to give you several years. [00:46:41] Dr. Kemi Doll: You know what I mean? Like, we want it to be like 10 years. We want it to be a long time before you [00:46:45] have to deal with it again. So what's happening in that intervening time? Are those things that [00:46:50] we talked about happening? Are we getting vitamin D supplementation? Mm. Mm-hmm. Are we on, preventatively on [00:46:55] the medications that I said sh- actually shrink fibroids? [00:46:57] Dr. Kemi Doll: Shrink it. So it's like, hey, listen, just in case, you know what I'm [00:47:00] saying, there was a one centimeter fibroid we didn't find or a stem cell left behind, let's do some [00:47:05] preventative treatment. So are you on things that we think are gonna prolong that time, or [00:47:10] is it we took the fibroids out, fingers crossed? [00:47:13] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:47:15] Is there not any, with all the work on stem cells right now, is there not any evolving [00:47:20] therapies with stem cells to- [00:47:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: In progress ... get rid of this? Yeah. I mean, they're working on it. They are working on it. We have, we now [00:47:25] have in the last five years, um, the NIH, just in the last five years, actually funded large [00:47:30] centers of fibroid, centers of fibroid excellence and research. [00:47:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. It's like a specific kind of NIH [00:47:35] center where- Right ... you get- I think [00:47:36] Dr. Taz: I saw that. [00:47:36] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. Okay Yeah. Mm-hmm You get, like, molecular biologists, geneticists, [00:47:40] like, you get every kind of- Right ... kind of discipline all working on the same problem. [00:47:44] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:47:44] Dr. Kemi Doll: So we've [00:47:45] got a few of those now, right? So it's gonna take time. [00:47:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: Take time. I know, y'all. [00:47:50] Okay. But we are gonna get there, so it's frustrating- Okay ... 'cause we're behind, but I never want the narrative to be like, "We [00:47:55] don't care. There's no research," like nobody... Like, it's not true we're not doing anything, but it does take time. [00:47:59] Dr. Taz: Time. What [00:48:00] about PRP? Have you seen those uterine washes with PRP? [00:48:03] Dr. Taz: I'm just curious. I'm just [00:48:05] asking. I- I'm just curious. So [00:48:06] Dr. Kemi Doll: okay, did you see the recent, um, [00:48:10] oh wait. Okay, I, I just saw this about the plasma. It was [00:48:15] a negative study, and I now, I just cannot remember what it was about. Oh, that's bothering me. It, [00:48:20] um- It was for, um, pelvic floor. That's what it was for. Okay. It was [00:48:25] for, uh, pelvic floor issues, like a urogynecology issues, [00:48:30] and people doing PRP for urinary incontinence- Mm [00:48:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: and weakness in the pelvic floor. Okay. It did [00:48:35] not [00:48:35] Dr. Taz: work. [00:48:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: Do anything? It did not help. Okay. No. So my thought... So I really don't like [00:48:40] it. [00:48:40] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:48:40] Dr. Kemi Doll: And I'll explain why. [00:48:41] Dr. Taz: Okay. It's- And maybe explain what PRP is too, just in case someone [00:48:45] listening [00:48:45] Dr. Kemi Doll: does not know. It's a plasma rich- Yeah. Okay ... um, I forgot what the third P stands for. [00:48:48] Dr. Kemi Doll: Platelet. Plasma-rich platelet [00:48:50] infusion. Right. Okay. So here's a few th- reasons why I don't like it. One is that the [00:48:55] endometrium, so that's the inner lining of the womb, is a very tightly controlled space. It's one of the most protected [00:49:00] spaces in the body actually, right? Because, because to [00:49:05] grow a life, it has to be, like, immunologically protected, so there's a lot of... [00:49:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: That's actually why it's difficult to [00:49:10] develop treatments- Mm-hmm ... 'cause the uterus is like, "Don't come in." [00:49:12] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:49:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right? Like- Right ... you are not allowed in here. Yeah. [00:49:15] Okay. So menstruation, going back to the wound with the scarless repair, is [00:49:20] this very tightly regulated system of, um, the [00:49:25] hormones and then the inflammatory system, which includes platelets, right? [00:49:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: Macrophages, [00:49:30] prostaglandins, that all come in, and they grow these spiral arteries. This is actually [00:49:35] really beautiful architecture, and then those arteries unwind, and it's this very tightly regulated [00:49:40] system. I do not like the idea of inserting more [00:49:45] platelets, plasma-rich platelets, into that system for growth reasons- Mm-hmm [00:49:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: when [00:49:50] actually growth factors are never a problem in the uterus. That's not the problem [00:49:55] that we have. Hmm. Interesting. It's not an area where it's like, oh gosh, we just, like, need more. We don't [00:50:00] ever need more of that. [00:50:01] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:50:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: Most of our conditions come from too much of that. So it's like I [00:50:05] just... Again, this is not my scientific opinion from the mechanisms, but this is my [00:50:10] scientifically informed perspective, that when I think about PRP, I think about, like, [00:50:15] aging. [00:50:15] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. I think about, you know, like- Right ... places where you're trying- Yeah ... to, like, get more, and that's not [00:50:20] the condition of the uterus. [00:50:21] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:50:21] Dr. Kemi Doll: So I don't like it. [00:50:22] Dr. Taz: You don't like it. All right. So no to that. [00:50:25] All right. What I'd love to do, I'm thinking about my patients, I'm thinking about- Yeah ... our [00:50:30] listeners and viewers, and they're hearing this conversation- Yeah [00:50:33] Dr. Taz: around the womb- [00:50:35] [00:50:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah ... [00:50:35] Dr. Taz: around fibroids, and they're like, "Well, what do I do?" Yeah. So [00:50:40] can we just go down the arc of being a woman? Mm-hmm. If you're a teenager- Mm-hmm ... if you are [00:50:45] a young Black female teenager- [00:50:47] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm ... [00:50:48] Dr. Taz: what would you have them do? [00:50:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: Oh my [00:50:50] gosh. Okay. Um, I have... Okay, so a few things. [00:50:55] One is I would have you establish care with a gynecologist that you trust, that you really [00:51:00] like. [00:51:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: I promise you they exist. They are, there are... Especially we [00:51:05] have this whole huge crop of new generation- Yeah ... holistic- Yeah ... minded, um, [00:51:10] gynecologists. I say that because you should have a gynecologist before there's a problem. [00:51:15] A lot of times, and I am completely part of this problem- Yeah ... and I'm working on it, we [00:51:20] only go when there's a problem, but now that person does not know your normal. [00:51:23] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:51:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: That person is starting from [00:51:25] scratch. To know [00:51:25] Dr. Taz: your normal. [00:51:26] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. So you need to know your normal, and then you need a doctor to know your [00:51:30] normal. I encourage everybody to do a three-month symptom journal. [00:51:33] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:51:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: It doesn't take that much [00:51:35] time. It's like just a quick every day, bleeding, cramping, anything going on down there. [00:51:39] Dr. Kemi Doll: You will now [00:51:40] know this is what is normal for me. First of all, what you write down might surprise you. You might be [00:51:45] like, "Actually, I bleed and cramp a lot." [00:51:46] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:51:47] Dr. Kemi Doll: And that's a sign to go in. Secondly, you now [00:51:50] have a record of normal. And Dr. Taz, you know how physicians are. Yeah. It's totally different to [00:51:55] say like, "I think something's been a little different for a little while," than to come in and say- "What's next?" [00:51:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: from January [00:52:00] to March- Right. ... this is what it was. Right. And then this, it- Right ... 'cause it already starts us, we already start [00:52:05] going, "Okay, it could be this." Right. It like- Right ... it turns on our- Instantly ... differential diagnosis. Yeah, yeah. So I tell [00:52:10] people, speak that language. So do a symptom journal to know your normal. [00:52:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: If everything's fine, put it [00:52:15] away, now you have it. If it's not, you are already collecting data for that future appointment. [00:52:20] Get a gynecologist so that you have somebody who knows you- Mm-hmm ... and you don't have to [00:52:25] convince them when something has changed, 'cause they already know your baseline. [00:52:28] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:52:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: Number three, in terms [00:52:30] of womb health, know your family history. [00:52:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: Does endometriosis run in your [00:52:35] family? Do fibroids run in your family? What are periods like in your family? Um, we don't have these [00:52:40] conversations often. We need to. Get a blood count and an, uh, an iron level. [00:52:45] 30% of Black women with heavy periods are anemic. [00:52:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:52:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: 30%- Wow ... [00:52:50] are walking around without enough oxygen in their blood as a norm. [00:52:54] Dr. Kemi Doll: Wow. [00:52:55] Get those labs tested. Um- And then you said young Black women. [00:52:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:52:59] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:53:00] Oh my gosh, healthy, healthy, encouraging, positive relationships [00:53:05] in your life. Mm, love that. It is not too young- Yeah ... to demand a [00:53:10] high standard for people who interact with you, for your romantic partners, for your [00:53:15] friends. Like, I love that people are, like, reclaiming themselves, but aren't you tired of the re- [00:53:20] reclamation happening at 45? [00:53:21] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:53:22] Dr. Kemi Doll: How about 25? I [00:53:24] Dr. Taz: love that. [00:53:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: You know what I [00:53:25] mean? [00:53:25] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:53:25] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, and lastly, I talk a lot in the book about womb sisters, which is that we've gotta break the [00:53:30] silence and say, we need a sisterhood where we can talk about these things for real, for real. [00:53:34] Dr. Taz: [00:53:35] Yeah. [00:53:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: I understand what it means to ask Black women especially to go to the doctor when they've had such [00:53:40] negative experiences, and I don't ask them to go alone. [00:53:42] Dr. Kemi Doll: You don't need everybody in your friend group to know your business. Right. But [00:53:45] you should have one friend- Who's an advocate ... that you ... Yeah- Yeah ... that, who's an advocate, that can, that doesn't care about all the [00:53:50] details, that can be an objective ear for you, and in a very vulnerable [00:53:55] exam and environment, be an anchor. [00:53:57] Dr. Taz: That's a really great tip, actually. I love that. [00:54:00] Let's move on to the woman now entering her 30s- Yeah ... and going maybe into [00:54:05] her childbearing years- Yes ... coming right out of it. What would you tell her? [00:54:08] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah, so I would tell her that, [00:54:10] um, it is really easy in your childbearing years, after you have kids, you're chasing your [00:54:15] career, all those things, it is really easy to literally disassociate- Yep [00:54:17] Dr. Kemi Doll: from what's going on down there, right? You're just like, [00:54:20] "I don't exist below the belly button." Right. I only exist here. I'm like, I am right here. Right up [00:54:23] Dr. Taz: here. [00:54:23] Dr. Kemi Doll: Right. Yes. And you're going, 'cause [00:54:25] I do the same thing. Yep. Go, go, go, go, go. Yeah. It's very, very easy to disassociate, and that is actually where we [00:54:30] see the most severity of symptoms during that time- Interesting [00:54:33] Dr. Kemi Doll: that are untreated. Okay. It is [00:54:35] in the 30s. It's like everybody is just go, go, go. They're taking care of their kids. They're taking care of their parents, all this stuff. [00:54:40] And especially for Black women, like, this is the time when we could actually [00:54:45] intervene. [00:54:45] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:54:45] Dr. Kemi Doll: And often, you know, if you look at the hysterectomy rate, it's like [00:54:50] low in the 20s. [00:54:51] Dr. Kemi Doll: There's a little blip in the 30s, and then you look at Black women, and it just, like, [00:54:55] skyrockets. Wow. 'Cause that's when women ... You know, their kids graduate. Everybody moves out, and they're finally like, "Okay, let [00:55:00] me take care of myself." Yeah. And now there are no options. [00:55:02] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:55:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: So this is the time where we have to [00:55:05] make a specific point to say- I have to prioritize my womb [00:55:10] even when it is inconvenient to other people. [00:55:13] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:55:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: If something has changed during [00:55:15] this time, I have to put something aside in order to take care of this for myself. [00:55:20] And also, I start thinking about, um, screening for cancers, right? So we start thinking about, [00:55:25] oh, I should tell the young people to take the HPV vaccine. [00:55:27] Dr. Taz: Yes. Sorry. [00:55:28] Dr. Kemi Doll: HPV vaccine. [00:55:30] Youngsters. [00:55:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: Please. Yeah. Okay, so this is when you start thinking about, um, you know, 7% [00:55:35] of uterine cancers happen under 45, so we start thinking about talking to your doctor about your risk factors [00:55:40] for uterine cancer. You start thinking about optimizing your heart health, 'cause almost everything that you do [00:55:45] that helps your heart helps your womb. [00:55:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm-hmm. That's another thing I tell people. Anything you hear about heart health helps your womb. [00:55:50] Um, it's when we start thinking we have to be a little bit more careful about- Yeah ... dietary things. We have to start being careful [00:55:55] about high processed sugars and, um, high, um, what do [00:56:00] you call- you know this better than me, Dr. [00:56:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: Taz, the high glycemic index- Oh, yeah, [00:56:03] Dr. Taz: yeah ... [00:56:03] Dr. Kemi Doll: foods- Inflammation and all- ... and diets and [00:56:05] inflammation. Right. Mm-hmm. That drives fibroid growth. It worsens endometriosis. We know that for a fact. Right, [00:56:09] Dr. Taz: [00:56:10] right. [00:56:10] Dr. Kemi Doll: So you have to start paying a lot more attention to that. And then also, I have to say alcohol. [00:56:14] Dr. Taz: Oh. [00:56:14] Dr. Kemi Doll: [00:56:15] Alcohol increases fibroid growth, y'all. [00:56:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: I'm sorry. I'm just- It's the truth ... I'm telling you the truth. It's the truth. [00:56:20] So I think the 30s are a time where there is a deliberate [00:56:25] effort to carve out a piece and say, "What am I doing that I'm s- to make sure that my [00:56:30] womb and the rest of my body health is as optimal as it can be, even if it's inconvenient?"[00:56:35] [00:56:35] Dr. Kemi Doll: Now we get into... Oh, sorry, go ahead. [00:56:37] Dr. Taz: Well, no, I was gonna say, now we move into- 40s, 50s ... 40s [00:56:40] and 50s. Okay. I believe we're- Peri-menopause years ... peri-menopause and menopause. Yes. And I have a [00:56:45] visual of a couple of women who've come, lots of fibroids- Yes ... kind of an angry uterus- Yeah ... [00:56:50] asking me if they can save their uterus. [00:56:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. What would you tell these women? [00:56:53] Dr. Kemi Doll: I would say maybe, maybe [00:56:55] not. Yeah. And I would say, and I would be really honest, and I tell a story in the book of, like, [00:57:00] honestly having to tell a woman in her early 40- she was, she was actually- Mm ... just, [00:57:05] she had just turned 40, and I had to tell her- Some of them haven't had children yet [00:57:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: "You need a hysterectomy." Oh, yeah, she had not had children. [00:57:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I [00:57:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: said, "You need a [00:57:10] hysterectomy." Yeah. And so I'm honest about that because I don't want [00:57:15] you to live a life of anemia, of pain, of cramping. At, you're 40, I assume [00:57:20] you've got 50 more years, girl. Right. Good point. So we are not gonna suffer through that. [00:57:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:57:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, so if [00:57:25] we haven't done that priorit- prioritization in our 30s, right, and you're just coming in, one, [00:57:30] it's It is, one, seeing a, [00:57:35] seeing a holistic doctor, a specialized gynecologist so that you can walk through [00:57:40] all your options and your fertility options. So surrogacy might be an option for you, [00:57:45] harvesting eggs might be an option for you, all of these things. [00:57:47] Dr. Kemi Doll: Um, two, it's recognizing [00:57:50] that you are about to enter the menopausal years, and it's probably going to be very helpful [00:57:55] for you to get an assessment of whether menopause hormone therapy is gonna be helpful for you, and [00:58:00] protection for your womb- [00:58:01] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:58:01] Dr. Kemi Doll: during that time. Mm. For everybody, because there's women who are listening who are like, "Well, [00:58:05] I haven't really suffered from fibroids, endometriosis, anything." [00:58:07] Dr. Kemi Doll: True. Mm-hmm. You're still at risk for uterine cancer, [00:58:10] especially if you're on estrogen-only therapy. [00:58:11] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:58:12] Dr. Kemi Doll: So I think I talk about that a lot. [00:58:15] And then, um, making sure that you stay in care during [00:58:20] menopause, because especially for women of color, what can happen is a [00:58:25] lifetime of fibroids, a lifetime of heavy bleeding means that as they go through menopause, [00:58:30] Dr. [00:58:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: Taz, they actually don't have that 12 month without bleeding- Right ... because they're [00:58:35] symptomatic from other things, and it can mask uterine cancer bleeding. So you need to [00:58:40] be in routine care with somebody who's watching that pattern, because your [00:58:45] periods should always be getting farther apart and lighter, farther apart and lighter, farther apart and [00:58:50] lighter. [00:58:50] Dr. Kemi Doll: But what happens, especially with Black women, is that that starts, but then maybe they start bleeding more, and [00:58:55] they start bleeding more. Mm-hmm. But it's all just perimenopause. Right, right. And we miss those signs. [00:58:59] Dr. Taz: Miss the [00:59:00] big things. [00:59:00] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. Right. Interesting. And so staying in care is really important. And then post-menopause, [00:59:05] it's just making sure you still get that annual exam, 'cause you know, there are vulvar, vaginal cancers, other things that can happen [00:59:10] that are more common 60s, 70s, 80s. [00:59:12] Dr. Taz: So a lot of women aren't going after 60. [00:59:14] Dr. Kemi Doll: I know. [00:59:15] [00:59:15] Dr. Taz: Do you want them to go? [00:59:16] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. Okay. I want you to go. Sorry. [00:59:18] Dr. Taz: No, that's important. [00:59:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: I want you to go [00:59:20] because it goes back to what we talked about. Yeah. Are we just child bear- I mean, are we just- Right ... here to child bear? [00:59:24] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:59:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: So [00:59:25] vulvar and vaginal cancers are most common in women in their late 60s, early 70s. [00:59:29] Dr. Kemi Doll: Mm. And you know what would [00:59:30] happen? We would see women with literally masses on their vulva, [00:59:35] on their vagina, that nobody had bothered with, women in nursing homes or not, women who [00:59:40] otherwise looking great, because the thought was, "Oh, I might have a UTI," or, "Maybe [00:59:45] I have, like, an STD or something. There's noth- like, there's nothing-" Right [00:59:47] Dr. Kemi Doll: "to really worry about down there." Right. And [00:59:50] as gynecologists, it's so frustrating. I'm sure. Because it's like, why? These organs still exist. [00:59:55] Why do we have this paradigm where we just- act like they're not there anymore Right Like, is there any point [01:00:00] where somebody goes like, "Oh, we don't worry about your heart anymore"? [01:00:02] Dr. Kemi Doll: Is there any point where we're like, "Kids-" [01:00:03] Dr. Taz: Good point. Your bones don't matter. [01:00:04] Dr. Kemi Doll: Oh, yeah, [01:00:05] your bones don't matter. You know what I'm saying? Oh my God. Like, even your teeth. Like, every- Yeah ... it's like the uterus is the only [01:00:10] organ, misogyny- [01:00:11] Dr. Taz: Right ... [01:00:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: where it's like, "Oh, you're not producing babies. Probably fine. [01:00:13] Dr. Kemi Doll: Don't worry about it." Yeah. What? Like, [01:00:15] what... How did this happen? [01:00:16] Dr. Taz: You said it. [01:00:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: Okay. [01:00:18] Dr. Taz: Misogyny. [01:00:18] Dr. Kemi Doll: So, yes. Well, [01:00:18] Dr. Taz: your book is out. [01:00:19] Dr. Kemi Doll: It [01:00:20] is. [01:00:20] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about the book. Oh my gosh. What can we find in there? What do you want people to walk away with? [01:00:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: I want people to [01:00:25] walk away so informed that they never feel intimidated by going to seek women's healthcare [01:00:30] again. [01:00:30] Dr. Taz: Mm. [01:00:30] Dr. Kemi Doll: I want them to feel informed so they actually, they can look towards any [01:00:35] type of practitioner they want to and feel like they can understand what that person is saying through the lens of the [01:00:40] biology. I promise you it's not too scientific. I promise you, you can follow it, and there are [01:00:45] incredible stories in this book of women, not just enduring womb suffering, but overcoming it, including [01:00:50] my own story of my own journey to endometriosis- Yeah [01:00:52] Dr. Kemi Doll: and my own journey with fibroids. And [01:00:55] ultimately, it is an empowering book. You're gonna wanna give it to your friends. You're gonna wanna take it to your [01:01:00] doctor. Um, the entire third part of the book is just how we can heal, and as we talked about, [01:01:05] through many ways. So I wanna bring these worlds together, and it's why I include information about [01:01:10] vitamins, supplements- Amazing [01:01:11] Dr. Kemi Doll: emotional management, and- Love it ... medicine- I love it so much ... and surgery. It's like- Yeah ... 'cause that's [01:01:15] the world we live in, so please pick it up wherever you find books. Give it to your mother for Mother's Day. [01:01:20] I don't know- Mother's Day is right around the corner ... if you're, if you're late or early- That's right [01:01:22] Dr. Kemi Doll: you know what I'm saying? Um, and I think it will [01:01:25] definitely serve you. [01:01:25] Dr. Taz: Well, I am so honored to have you here. We have a crisis when it comes to [01:01:30] Black women's health. We both know that. [01:01:31] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yeah. [01:01:32] Dr. Taz: I've sat with so many women, both in our [01:01:35] clinics, and then prior to my clinic life I was in the ER. Yeah. Yes. So, you know, got to witness [01:01:40] firsthand kind of some of our breaks and, and how women are not served well. [01:01:43] Dr. Taz: So I'm gonna [01:01:45] encourage everybody watching and listening to please, please share this episode [01:01:50] with at least two to three other women in your life, and I don't care if they are [01:01:55] 12, 13, 14, or they're 70, 75, or 80. I feel like we have to get this [01:02:00] message out there. So please share it. Let's get educated. We can take care of the body. [01:02:04] Dr. Taz: The body's [01:02:05] incredible. Yes. We're both fascinated by it, but if you don't know, then you don't know what to do. [01:02:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: [01:02:10] Yeah. [01:02:10] Dr. Taz: And Dr. Hemy, thank you so much. Thank you. I love this episode. Thank you. Well, before [01:02:15] I let you go- Okay ... and unleash you to the world, uh, what makes you whole?[01:02:20] [01:02:24] Dr. Kemi Doll: [01:02:25] Um, I can say more than one thing? [01:02:28] Dr. Taz: You can say more [01:02:29] Dr. Kemi Doll: than one thing. What makes me [01:02:30] whole is remembering that I come from amazing people, [01:02:35] and that my life is like a blessing- [01:02:37] Dr. Taz: Mm ... [01:02:37] Dr. Kemi Doll: um, to be able to live this life. I'm literally [01:02:40] grateful. I'm, like, grateful to God, the divine, for trusting me to, like, be alive. [01:02:45] Um, what makes me whole are my kids. [01:02:46] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. They're so [01:02:47] Dr. Taz: sweet. [01:02:47] Dr. Kemi Doll: Yes. They're seven [01:02:48] Dr. Taz: and 11. Family. [01:02:49] Dr. Kemi Doll: And, [01:02:50] like, they are adorable. I love my husband still, so that's always great. That's always good. We have a good time. [01:02:55] Um, and, um, and really just feeling... It's like we talked [01:03:00] about this before we started recording. There's nothing like feeling like your work has meaning beyond you. [01:03:04] Dr. Kemi Doll: [01:03:05] Yeah. I am so renewed by that, so yeah. [01:03:08] Dr. Taz: We're changing generations. Thank you. [01:03:09] Dr. Kemi Doll: So [01:03:09] Dr. Taz: that's [01:03:10] huge. So thank you again for joining us. For everybody else, please remember, [01:03:15] another little plug to first of all, get the book. Secondly, share it. I go deeper on all these [01:03:20] topics, including fibroids, women's health, Black women's health, and more in my private community, The [01:03:25] Circle. [01:03:25] Dr. Taz: So if you've not joined yet, now is the chance. Just go to [01:03:30] wholeplus.co/circle and we will see you next time. Before you go, take a second to [01:03:35] reflect on what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review [01:03:40] wherever you're listening. It really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their [01:03:45] own healing journey. [01:03:46] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at drtazmd. I [01:03:50] love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.