Latest / True Crime with Gavin Fish / Legal Analysis of the Ellen Greenberg Murder with Joshua Ritter from Courtroom Confidential

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Legal Analysis of the Ellen Greenberg Murder with Joshua Ritter from Courtroom Confidential · True Crime with Gavin Fish

0:12
Well, hello there, my friend. Welcome back to the channel.
0:15
My name is Gavin. Thank you for being here on my
0:17
channel. We're into true crime.
0:20
We do our very best to cut through the nitty gritty.
0:22
A cut to the nitty gritty of true crime.
0:25
Cut past the sensationalism, cut past the fluff, and have
0:27
meaningful conversations for the purpose of educating ourselves.
0:32
And we entertain ourselves a little bit here, too.
0:34
But if that's what you like, then you're on the right.
0:37
You're at the right place, and I'm glad you are.
0:40
Hey, today I am. We're continuing our coverage of
0:44
the murder of Ellen Greenberg today.
0:47
We are joined by a friend of mine.
0:52
I'm so glad that he's here. Josh Ritter from Courtroom
0:55
Confidential. Josh, thank you for being here.
0:57
I pushed the wrong button. Need to be there.
0:59
We go. Welcome.
1:01
Thank you. So much for having me.
1:03
I've been looking forward to this.
1:04
I I am glad that you're on. I'm glad for a little inside
1:09
baseball. For those that are watching the
1:12
true crime genre. We don't do a lot of
1:14
collaborations in the genre. It does feel like we're in
1:17
competition with one another, but Josh and his team really
1:21
came in and changed that. Yeah.
1:22
Which has been terrific. When yeah, yeah.
1:26
When I, when I watch a show, it's good to see faces that I
1:29
know. And and thanks for thanks for
1:31
kind of breaking that that ceiling in in true kind.
1:35
Hey, the internet's big, big enough for all of us, and all
1:39
ships rise with the tide, so I'm I'm happy to do it.
1:42
Plus it gives me somebody to chat with rather than staring at
1:45
my computer the whole time, so I appreciate it.
1:48
It does feel that way, right? You're just like, oh, it's just
1:51
me again, sitting in front of my computer, make eye contact with
1:55
the camera. Let me do my best.
1:57
Yeah. Now.
1:58
Well, it's good to have you on. And a little background on Josh.
2:01
Josh is a he's a lawyer. He is a former prosecutor.
2:06
Did you what? What prosecutor's office did you
2:08
work in, Josh? I was at the LA District
2:11
Attorney's Office for just about 10 years.
2:15
What was that like? What is it like to that's a huge
2:18
office? It is huge.
2:20
Actually. Fun fact, it is the largest
2:23
prosecuting office, prosecutorial agency in the
2:27
world. At least that's what they would
2:29
tell us. It certainly is the biggest in
2:31
the United States. And if you think about it it, it
2:34
handles all the prosecutions for felonies and a lot of the
2:37
misdemeanors in all of Los Angeles County, which is the
2:40
most populous county in the United States.
2:44
So we had, it's huge. It's a huge office we had when I
2:48
was there, at least we had over 1000 attorneys, over 1000
2:53
prosecutors. Oh my goodness.
2:55
Add, add to that support staff and everything else.
2:57
So when I listen, I loved it. It was, it was my favorite
3:03
career as a lawyer and I classify it just by saying as a
3:08
lawyer because I love what I'm doing now with the whole YouTube
3:11
world and everything else. But it was fantastic.
3:15
It, you know, it was one of those jobs where every single
3:17
day you felt like your, your job was to do the right thing.
3:22
You, you were tasked with pursuing justice and doing the
3:27
right thing And you're doing incredibly difficult cases.
3:32
You're doing a lot of cases that nobody knows about that don't
3:35
make the headlines that are very, very important though to
3:37
the people that they affect and are involved.
3:40
And you're, it's a, it's a, it's a trial by fire because I mean,
3:45
they throw you in the deep end. You're starting trials from day
3:48
one day literally after training the first day I was a a ADA
3:54
assigned to a courtroom. I started picking a jury that
3:57
day. So it is, it is like you're
3:59
thrown in the deep end and you just kind of sink or swim.
4:02
How far out of how far out of law school were you when you
4:05
took that job? Oh, I, I was a law clerk in the
4:08
D as office when I was still in law school.
4:11
So I graduated law school and immediately that was my first
4:14
job out of law school. Wow, Yeah, wow.
4:17
No. Well, one of the things that
4:20
kind of how do I say this, you're talking about hard cases
4:25
in cases that mean that are meaningful to to the people that
4:29
are involved, right, the families, the victims and stuff
4:32
like that. I would imagine that I would
4:35
imagine that it that there's some hard conversations that you
4:38
have to have with some of these families.
4:42
Oh yeah, oh, oh, it, it, you get a real eye opener as to this
4:49
isn't just about, you know, the, oh, I've got a police report and
4:53
oh, I've got to prove these elements and I've got to make
4:55
these arguments in court that this is like real life stuff
4:59
happening. These are real people whose
5:01
lives are very much affected, both as from the victim's
5:05
perspective and from the defendant's perspective.
5:07
I mean, you get, you know, you, you, you realize you're putting
5:11
people in prison and that's going to affect their life and
5:14
their families lives moving forward.
5:16
I'll never forget early on in my career, I, I had a case and I
5:21
was talking to the defense attorney and I'm like, I felt
5:25
that the offer we had given them was really good.
5:27
And it was for for about 16 months in prison.
5:30
And I'm like, what is going on here?
5:32
Why won't he take this? I don't understand that, you
5:34
know, that this is a great offer.
5:36
Why are we pushing this to trial?
5:38
And the defense attorney turns to me and he goes, he's never
5:41
been to prison, man. And it was like, oh.
5:47
Scares the crop out of. Swallow Yeah.
5:49
This guy's having a rough time with the idea.
5:51
For the first time, he's going to be going to prison.
5:53
Wow. That's something I need to
5:55
appreciate and understand moving forward.
5:58
And from the victim's perspective, I will never forget
6:01
this. When this was early, like, you
6:03
know, within my first year, I was handling A misdemeanor case
6:07
involving child like abuse, but not sexual.
6:14
I'm talking about like the the children were being beaten
6:17
essentially by their father and handled the case.
6:21
Did the trial, felt all proud of myself.
6:23
And the the mother of the children came to me afterwards
6:27
and they were a an immigrant family.
6:29
And she's speaking broken English and she tears in her
6:31
eyes saying thank you so much for helping us.
6:34
And it was like, wow, this isn't about wins or losses.
6:38
This isn't about my, my trial stats.
6:41
Like these people's lives have now been affected by this and
6:44
hopefully for the better moving forward.
6:46
So it's to to your point, it is definitely you are dealing with
6:50
absolute real life drama and real life consequences for
6:55
people. Well, and like I, I as a
6:58
reporter in this local area and I don't know what it is about
7:02
our area. Actually, I, I have theories out
7:05
here in Western Pennsylvania, this used to be a very, very
7:09
wealthy area because of the oil industry.
7:12
And in the 90's the oil industry literally just picked up and
7:15
left and went to Texas and it left this place just desolate.
7:20
And that was, that was a prime opportunity for a, a drug
7:24
epidemic to just sweep through. And that, that's what ended up
7:27
happening. So we have, we have a lot of
7:30
crime for, for a place that's so rural because we're now 30 years
7:37
into this battle with, with drugs.
7:40
And, but so in my reporting, I will often talk with families
7:48
where something has happened to a loved 1 of theirs and they
7:51
will say, you know, DA so and so doesn't care.
7:58
He just doesn't care. He won't prosecute, right.
8:00
And it's very hard for me to communicate to them that he has
8:04
a duty to only prosecute a case that he knows, he knows he can
8:10
win or he has, he has a very, or he's confident that one, the
8:15
person that he would be prosecuting is guilty, he has.
8:18
And two, that he could win, he'd he'd be able to prove.
8:21
It may not be that he doesn't care.
8:23
It just may be that he can't prove it.
8:27
And I I bet that's got to be tough.
8:29
It's extremely tough. And I've had many of those
8:32
conversations or conversations where you, you charge someone
8:37
with a crime and then you, you know, you, you start to
8:41
understand how difficult this might be to prevail at trial.
8:45
And so you make an offer. And that might be way below what
8:50
the, the victim's family members are hoping for.
8:53
I mean, they, you know, they're, they've in the case of, let's
8:57
say a murder, they've lost a loved one.
8:59
And the price of that to them is there's no, there's no value you
9:05
can put on it, right? But at least they want the
9:08
prosecutor to get the maximum. And when you make a plea deal,
9:13
it necessarily includes you probably offering something less
9:16
than the maximum. And so they believe that
9:19
therefore you don't feel their loved 1 is worth that.
9:23
And you, they start to feel like you're frankly a coward or that
9:27
you don't want to put in the work or that you're lazy, or
9:30
that you're just trying to move your caseload along.
9:33
And you're trying to explain to people that no, I, I want a win
9:36
here. I don't want to go to trial and
9:39
lose. And then you, you get 0 justice
9:42
for your loved 1. And so I'm making the difficult
9:45
decision of offering something less than the maximum, but
9:48
hopefully that that does some level of justice.
9:52
And those are difficult conversations.
9:55
Well. You're people leaving very
9:57
unhappy with you. You're.
9:58
Right. Sure.
9:59
And, and that's a good transition into the case that
10:01
we're talking about tonight, Ellen Greenberg, because one,
10:05
this is a case that never made it far enough along in the in
10:11
the investigative process to really have that kind of a hard
10:14
conversation, but it did, it did end up, I don't know if you're
10:20
familiar with this, but there was a guy that worked as an ADA
10:25
in the Philadelphia District Attorney's office named Guy
10:28
D'andrea. Every time I say there's this
10:30
guy, and I know his name is Guy should stop, I should stop doing
10:33
that. But he was Guy D'andrea was told
10:37
about this case from, I mean, it was like a Six Degrees of Kevin
10:44
Bacon kind of thing that he found out about this thing.
10:46
And he found the file in a closet where they kept their
10:51
holiday decorations. And he looked at it and he
10:54
thought, hey, I've got a homicide here.
10:56
I would like to prosecute this homicide.
10:59
But the police were adamant that it was not a homicide.
11:04
And I would imagine in in the shoes of a prosecutor, that
11:09
might be a pretty steep hill to climb.
11:14
Yeah, I can't even, I first of all, I don't even have a, a
11:18
situation that I can call upon that's even similar to that.
11:21
Because I mean, just so your listeners understand, usually
11:26
the way it works is the one making the calling the shots on
11:30
whether or not something's a homicide and whether or not to
11:32
bring charges and pursue it is the DA's office.
11:35
I mean, this is another difficult conversation.
11:38
Many times you get officers who come in with a file and they've,
11:41
they've been they've put a tremendous amount of work into
11:44
it and they want you to file something and you go, sorry,
11:47
guys, we don't have it. You need to go do more
11:50
investigation or we just don't have enough that we feel we can
11:53
prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.
11:55
And your your cops will be very frustrated with you thinking you
11:58
don't, you don't got the guts, you don't want to do it, you're
12:00
lazy, whatever. But I can't think of a situation
12:04
I've ever encountered where the prosecutor takes a look, goes, I
12:08
think this is good for murder. And the officers, the Police
12:12
Department saying, no, we don't, we don't think it's there.
12:15
I mean, that's just not the way it works.
12:16
The, the people who decide are the prosecutor's office and the
12:20
people who do the investigation are the the police.
12:22
And they make suggestions. But it usually doesn't work that
12:25
way. So I can't imagine what he must
12:28
have gone through and the frustration and what
12:30
conversations he may have had with his supervisors.
12:33
But I mean, listen, if your police are not on board and they
12:37
believe that something is one thing and you believe it's
12:39
something else, even if you decide to pursue it, it's going
12:42
to make it incredibly give difficult.
12:44
And you you imagine putting your officers on the stand to talk
12:48
about a case where they don't even believe that a crime was
12:50
committed. That's that's not going to be a
12:52
very successful day in court. Yeah, Now this case is one that
12:57
just to give a quick primer to everybody, Ellen Greenberg was a
13:01
27 year old woman living in the Manayunk neighborhood of
13:05
Philadelphia. She was engaged to be married to
13:07
a guy named Sam Goldberg. And one night in January of 2011
13:14
is January 26th, 2011, so the story goes, she was discovered
13:19
on the kitchen floor with a knife sticking out of her chest
13:22
and nineteen additional stab wounds, half of which were to
13:25
the back of her head and neck. When the medical examiner
13:30
examined her body, he, I think correctly in my opinion, ruled
13:34
her death a homicide. But under pressure from police
13:37
and actually a member of the DA's office as well, allegedly,
13:41
I should say that that's what her parents allege, he changed
13:46
it. Well, actually, I, he has
13:49
testified to that. I guess I, I, I don't have to
13:51
put a ledge on that. He testified to it.
13:55
But under pressure from members of the Philly PD and at least
14:01
one assistant District Attorney, he was pressured to change the,
14:04
her manner of death to suicide. And her parents have been trying
14:11
to get this, this error corrected for 14 years now.
14:16
They're still they're still in a fight, Josh.
14:21
In fact, on the 14th of is is tomorrow, October.
14:25
Are we in October tomorrow, crying out loud.
14:28
OK, that's crazy. Yeah.
14:30
October is my birth month, and I am having a midlife crisis right
14:34
now, so I'm not really excited for my birthday.
14:37
But on October 14th. Thank you.
14:40
Thank you. It's Friday.
14:43
I turn 50 on Friday. I turn 50 on Friday.
14:48
You don't look it, my friend, I don't.
14:49
Like it the the skunk stripes don't give it away.
14:54
No, you're talking to the Oh dude, no, I appreciate to the.
14:58
Converted. I was turning. 50 And I was like
15:00
silver oh, I'd be in, I'd be in. But anyway, on the 14th, they
15:07
have a hearing again in front of Judge Linda Carpenter because
15:13
they're trying to get the city of Philadelphia to just do what
15:15
they settled to do, which was expeditiously do a review of
15:21
this because now Doctor Osborne is saying, no, it's not suicide.
15:25
So y'all take a look at it. And in the last hearing, I wish
15:29
you could have been there, Josh. It was amazing.
15:31
Judge Carpenter really lit into him.
15:34
And she actually said, I would love to hear your thoughts on
15:37
this. She she actually goes, this is
15:40
not verbatim, but she goes, I think I have the power to
15:45
declare this a homicide. Tell me how I don't have that
15:48
power. Yeah.
15:50
And then everybody was like, do you think a, a judge can I, I
15:57
know that through mandamus, a judge can force action, but I
16:01
don't, I don't know that a judge can say, no, this is a homicide,
16:05
make a homicide. First of all, I love, I love
16:09
this judge. I, I did not, I have not seen
16:12
video, but I've read the reports of the comments that she's made
16:15
in court. And I love her because she's,
16:17
she's just so sick of it. And she's really putting
16:20
pressure on on the it's the city, right?
16:24
It's the city of Philadelphia. That's the defending, if you
16:27
want to call it in this action. And why haven't they done what
16:31
they promised they're going to do?
16:32
And she she, she she starts, she starts thinking outside of the
16:37
box while she's on the bench. Can she officially declare this
16:42
a homicide? I don't believe so.
16:44
I don't, I don't think, you know, you're talking about a, a,
16:46
a conflict between the executive branch and the judicial branch
16:50
of our governments. And I don't think she can from
16:52
the bench, take an action which is in the purview of the
16:55
executive branch, which is law enforcement, right?
16:58
Yeah. But I think she can certainly
17:01
have place on the docket in order to show causes to why it
17:06
hasn't been done and what what is the what's taking so long and
17:10
what what evidence do they have that is preventing them from
17:14
making that decision right away. And I think that she is
17:17
essentially doing that is, you know, turning up the temperature
17:20
as much as she can to say enough with this.
17:23
This is why are we still sitting here with unanswered questions
17:26
on this case? Yeah, her ultimate threat was, I
17:29
think I'm just going to put this back on the docket.
17:31
Let's take it to trial. Yeah, I love it.
17:35
Yeah. Judge Linda Carpenter.
17:37
I see. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
17:40
is lame. They they don't allow cameras
17:42
and you cannot record. You can't record any, any court
17:46
proceedings, period. And a zoom hearing, which is
17:50
what it was. I just wanted to, like, record
17:52
it. And then I wanted to put it like
17:55
those cars in the World War 2 movies playing Édith Piaf and
17:59
their little loud speakers. I wanted to drive through Philly
18:06
and just just play what it was that she said.
18:09
But I hope that the city, the city quibbles.
18:11
The city is not a defendant. They're former employees of the
18:15
city that are defendants. But it's a city attorney that
18:18
that is representing them. So maybe we'll see this getting
18:23
back on. And all that they're asking for,
18:26
right, is just to begin the investigation.
18:30
It's not even, it's not even that they're asked the judges
18:34
ordering them to come to a certain conclusion is that, am I
18:38
getting that right? Like, it's to me, it's, it's I,
18:42
I don't, I understand backlogs, bureaucracies, the government, I
18:47
work for the government. I, I get it.
18:49
I get how, you know, doing the simplest of tax tasks and
18:53
somehow can sometimes seem like, you know, insurmountable.
18:57
But when the idea is just simply beginning an investigation that
19:04
doesn't need not seem like the greatest of undertakings that
19:06
can't be accomplished. And especially if the if the
19:10
outcome of that investigation is not somehow being dictated, it's
19:14
like, OK, we we've got people assigned to this, they're taking
19:18
a look, they're opening up an investigation.
19:21
Yeah, you got that right. So what happened was in
19:24
February, I was actually there for this.
19:28
It was like, it was like this a scene from a very dramatic law
19:32
movie. And and I hate watching legal
19:35
dramas because they're all just so terrible.
19:36
But it it felt like that, right? And yeah, the settlement that
19:42
that they came to was that Josh and Sandy, OK, the lawsuit was
19:49
over. Josh and Sandy alleged that
19:52
there was a conspiracy to cover up the murder of Alan Greenberg
19:55
by members of the city, members of the medical examiner's
19:59
office, members of the Police Department, members of the DA,
20:03
member of the DA's office, The DA, the the suit against the DA
20:08
got kicked like that because she enjoys, you know, high official
20:12
immunity, but. OK, so they're, they're suing
20:17
over this alleged conspiracy to cover up the murder of their
20:21
daughter. The settlement that the city
20:22
came to literally the, a panel of jurors were in the the
20:27
courtroom getting ready for jury selection and they sat there for
20:31
probably 3 hours while all these hearings and negotiation was
20:35
happening in other rooms. But the settlement was we'll pay
20:41
Josh and Sandy Greenberg a certain amount of undisclosed
20:44
money be to make them whole, hopefully for everything that
20:48
they've spent trying to trying to get justice for their
20:52
daughter, which they said was that they said they sent spent
20:55
about 800 grand on this so far. And so you're pushing 1,000,000
20:59
bucks. And then the second part of that
21:03
is that they would, and the word was expeditiously review Doctor
21:09
Osborne's work with the new staff in the medical examiner's
21:13
office, because they're all new to see what it was that they
21:16
think. And that was it.
21:18
And they didn't act like you said, they didn't ask to make it
21:21
a homicide or make it undetermined.
21:23
It was just review it and that's all they're asking.
21:28
It and to me, and I hope I'm not oversimplifying it, but to me
21:33
that is sounds nearly as simple as taking a file from the bottom
21:37
of the stack and putting it to the top of the stack there.
21:40
Yeah. No one's asking for the the the
21:44
the review to even have been completed.
21:47
No is no one's asking for a certain result.
21:49
No one's asking for all sorts of further investigation being
21:53
done. It's just, hey, can you have
21:55
somebody, a new set of eyes, objectively take a look at this,
21:59
that again, I don't understand why that can't be accomplished
22:02
in the town, the time that they've been given.
22:05
And I think that didn't the judge have some great, great
22:08
line about under what universe or something does this appear to
22:12
be expeditiously? I, I, I, I remember something
22:14
along those lines too, that it's like, right, what do we, what is
22:18
the dragging of feet for at this point?
22:20
Because what the what they're asking for seems incredibly
22:24
reasonable given the circumstances.
22:27
I agree now and like you said, and I think the Greenbergs have
22:31
been this way too, where I mean Philadelphia is a violent place
22:37
with many murders every year. It's like 2-3 hundred people
22:40
that get murdered every year in Philadelphia and they have a
22:44
staff. I don't think it's very big,
22:46
maybe six or seven medical examiner's, right.
22:50
So that is a that's that that's, that's a lot of work that can
22:56
backlog. Yeah.
22:59
However, I don't think they need anything more than the file.
23:02
The doctor like just don't read his autopsy.
23:05
Just read the reports, look at the photos, look at the tissue
23:09
samples. Right.
23:10
But the, the city in that hearing was asking for well, the
23:14
police files need to be delivered and oh, there's been a
23:17
strike and oh, you know, the Courier and oh, the this and oh
23:20
the that. And Judge Carpenter brought up,
23:25
you don't need any of that. Why do you need any of that?
23:28
Just look at the you have files, don't you?
23:31
It's pretty crazy. Well, and also begin the
23:36
process, right. I mean, it's, it's one thing to
23:38
say like, well, we're, we've started the process and we're
23:42
continuing our review, but we're waiting on whatever the police
23:47
to hand over such and such, you know, certain documents to be
23:49
refined, but you're telling me you can't even get started until
23:54
you feel like you've got all those pieces in place.
23:57
It's like I again, I, I, I, I having been in government,
24:04
there's a little bit of sympathy on my part realizing the
24:06
bureaucracies that they deal with.
24:08
But, but it seems as simple as assigning this to a medical
24:12
examiner and having that person start a review and then they can
24:16
say we've we've accomplished at least what the what the
24:20
settlement was about and we will update the court to our
24:23
progress. Yeah, OK, so by the way, one of
24:28
the things that I really love about Josh and Sandy and I, and
24:30
I expressed this last night, just so you know, Josh.
24:36
So Sandy has become like a second mom to me.
24:39
I talked to her on the phone sometimes daily.
24:42
Like, like she's my buddy at this point.
24:44
I really love him to death, but one of the things that I've
24:48
really loved about Josh and Sandy is they've never asked for
24:52
a homicide investigation. They've that's never even and
24:56
people pressure them. What is that they want out of
24:58
this? I want the world to know that my
25:00
daughter did not do this to herself.
25:02
Well, who did it? Who do you think did it to her?
25:05
It does not matter. That is for the police.
25:08
What matters to me is that the world knows that my daughter did
25:11
not do that to herself. And they've, they've kept on
25:13
that the whole time. However, I'm kind of in the
25:18
other camp where I'm like, OK, well, there, there is a suspect
25:21
here and, and there should be, well, I have a suspect.
25:26
I, I imagine if police investigated correctly, they
25:30
would have a suspect or two maybe.
25:33
But say, say the medical examiner comes back and I don't
25:38
have high hopes for this because it's Philadelphia, but the
25:41
medical examiner's office comes back and says we agree that this
25:44
is a homicide. OK, So now it has to actually be
25:49
investigated as a homicide. So let's say that it goes
25:52
through a five year investigation for a homicide
25:54
investigation and then it makes it back to ADA and they bring it
26:00
back in. OK.
26:01
Mr. Ritter. Mr. DA Ritter, Sir, here is our
26:05
file. This is our case.
26:06
Yeah. It started out, We thought for
26:08
15 years that she had did it to herself.
26:11
And then we fought with them for all of these years.
26:15
And then they forced us to do this.
26:17
And then we actually did it. Like, as ADA, are you going to
26:21
be able to take up that case? Like, are you going to be able
26:23
to tell a jury? Such a great question because I
26:27
feel like people don't people who follow this kind of don't
26:31
understand that element of it as well.
26:33
Is that the, the, like you said, remarkably, the city could
26:39
change their posture on this thing completely.
26:42
And you could have a detective who takes a look at this and
26:45
goes, wait, wait a minute. Not only do I feel this was a
26:48
homicide, I've got my lead suspect already put together an
26:52
entire investigation. Hand that to the DA's office and
26:55
they could say, and this is not an unlikely scenario, they could
26:59
say, great work. I agree with you.
27:02
We don't have enough to file because that's a different
27:06
standard. There's a, you know, there's a
27:08
wide chasm between suspicion by the Police Department, even the
27:12
gathering of evidence identifying A suspect and ADA
27:17
believing that they have proof beyond a reasonable doubt of who
27:22
they're going to charge 'cause that's the standard.
27:24
We don't, we don't. DA's offices don't throw it
27:28
against the wall and see what sticks.
27:30
They've got to only file charges where they believe that if they
27:34
need to, they can stand in front of 12 people and prove this case
27:37
beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the highest legal
27:39
standard that we have. And that is there's a big
27:42
difference, like I said, between suspicion and beyond a
27:46
reasonable doubt. And they just might not feel
27:48
that they have it. And it could be not for reasons
27:53
of laziness or they don't believe, you know, they don't
27:57
want to take the chance. Or it could just be we don't the
28:01
evidence has disappeared because of a lack of investigation of
28:04
the last 10 years or the evidence disappeared within the
28:08
first two days when they brought in professional cleaners to
28:11
clean up that. I mean, it could just be that
28:13
that case was never going to make it to a filing because the
28:17
evidence got lost early on. I think the good news in all
28:21
this is that I think Josh and Sandy would just be happy if the
28:24
world recognized that something that that happened to their
28:28
daughter, that Ellen was killed. Ellen did not do it to herself.
28:31
And, and I think I think that they will find comfort in that.
28:39
I will not, not at all. But I could imagine being a
28:43
prosecutor and standing in or well, I could imagine being a
28:46
prosecutor sitting at my desk in a courtroom.
28:49
You've got your 12 people over in the jury box that are
28:51
listening to everything that you say.
28:53
And then in the opening statement, a defense attorney
28:56
gets up and goes, this is not a homicide.
28:58
They didn't even think it was a homicide for 15 years.
29:01
You know, like holding that against, which I think would be
29:05
a compelling argument. It'd be a good argument.
29:07
Yeah, I mean, a defense attorney.
29:09
I mean, listen, he's going to call that medical examiner and
29:13
go wait a minute. You're.
29:15
You declared this a homicide. Fine.
29:17
Then you received further information and declared it a
29:20
suicide. Were you lying at that time,
29:23
Sir? Are you on the stand telling us
29:24
that was a lie when you declared this a suicide?
29:27
No, no, no, no, no. I received other information.
29:30
OK, great. And then you got sued, right?
29:33
And then you declared this. His determination isn't.
29:38
He said other than suicide. Other than suicide, I mean, that
29:42
is. Listen, if you're 12 people who
29:44
know nothing about this case and you're hearing that you're kind
29:47
of going, what am I doing here? How have they proven this?
29:50
I mean it, again, I feel your frustration and I share your
29:54
frustration. But if we're talking about how
29:57
this actually plays out at a trial, it is it's going to be a
30:01
real difficult undertaking for a prosecutor, even if they get
30:05
friendly investigators involved. You know, there is a there's a
30:11
line from the movie Men in Black delivered beautifully, perfectly
30:15
by Tommy Lee Jones. That is like, it is a truth that
30:19
I live by, OK. And it came from a stupid movie.
30:23
And the line is a person is smart, people are stupid.
30:28
I have been a juror on a murder trial.
30:33
And I sat in that box for the two weeks of the trial looking
30:38
at all the evidence, listening to all the witnesses, looking at
30:42
all the forensic everything. And I was so excited to go back
30:47
into that jury room and go, oh, I'm glad this is going to be
30:50
fast because Thanksgiving is just a couple days away and
30:53
we're planning on traveling right and get into the jury room
30:57
and the dill hole idiot people that I was on a jury with, I
31:02
couldn't believe it. I could not believe that they
31:07
were even sitting in the same trial that I was.
31:10
So how do you do that? Like as a prosecutor and even at
31:13
because you're, you are now a defense attorney, right?
31:16
Do you do criminal defense? Is that?
31:18
What you do? OK.
31:20
So how much faith do you have in juries?
31:23
Tell tell me a little bit about that.
31:27
Yeah, if you ever really want to test your faith in humanity, go
31:31
go watch jury selection in just a random courtroom somewhere.
31:35
And it is, it is amazing. Listen, you, you, you've got,
31:41
you've got a lot of good folks who want to do the right thing.
31:44
You've got a lot of people who just want to get out of jury
31:47
duty. You've got people who've got
31:49
wild and ridiculous beliefs. And you're given the shortest
31:56
amount of time to try to weed through all of those people to
31:59
find folks that you hope are reasonable to sit on the jury.
32:03
You know, everybody thinks that jury selection is this kind of,
32:08
you know, process where you're trying to pick the jurors that
32:12
you want to be on and they'd like, oh, that juror, juror
32:16
number perspective juror #13 is fantastic for us.
32:20
And I'm going to make sure he know you're, you're what you're
32:23
doing is you're picking the people you don't want on you're
32:26
you're with your limited time as you're trying to identify all
32:29
those people who are just have ridiculous kind of world views
32:34
and what you're left with then. And this happens to me every
32:36
single time as you go through this whole process and you kick
32:40
and the other side kicks and you go back and forth.
32:41
And finally you reach that climactic moment where you both
32:45
accept the jury as currently impaneled.
32:47
They swear them in. And you look over and you see 12
32:51
people that you know nothing about because they're the people
32:54
who probably kept their mouth shut through the whole thing and
32:56
so therefore didn't identify themselves as having kind of
33:00
ridiculous views. But then you go through this
33:04
trial and many times afterwards, you'll speak with jurors and you
33:08
are blown away by some of the stuff that they were talking
33:11
about while deliberating and some of the things that they got
33:15
hung up on. And I've, I've got, you know, I
33:18
wake up in cold sweats still sometimes thinking about some of
33:21
the things that I've heard jurors say afterwards that
33:24
affected whether or not they had a conviction on a case or not.
33:27
It's it is you listen, I firmly believe we have the best system
33:33
in the entire world. I firmly believe that we, we, we
33:36
do it as best that we possibly can.
33:38
But you're right, you're putting it into the faith of, of, of
33:43
people and people. People.
33:45
What? What was the code?
33:46
Yeah, a person is smart, people are stupid.
33:49
Yeah. Yeah, that's and it's true.
33:52
It's absolutely true. When we get into to groups of
33:55
people, I remember our deliberations.
33:59
Oh, Dang it, there was this I was juror #2 juror number one
34:05
was this sweet little old lady. She she looked like something
34:10
out of like, I don't know, our town.
34:14
She she even had like she even had like a, a a fur stole.
34:20
I mean, it looked like you couldn't even you couldn't even
34:22
write this person right. But she was the cutest little
34:25
old lady. And she was so just
34:28
conscientiously writing notes, man.
34:30
She, she was taking notes. And I, and the entire time I was
34:34
thinking, man, I'm glad that we have her.
34:36
She is paying close attention and she's taking these copious
34:40
notes, right? And we get into the jury room
34:44
and it turns out she's deaf. She cannot hear anything that
34:49
anybody is saying. And she thinks that she heard
34:52
things that just never happened. Just never happened, you know?
34:58
Incredible. Yeah.
35:01
Yeah, those stories. So yeah, anyway, with, with
35:05
Ellen, I don't, I, I guess I don't have a lot of faith that
35:10
this would will end someday in a, in a conviction, but.
35:16
I mean, well, not to not to dash everyone's hopes, but you know,
35:22
sometimes in cases like this, if this is a murder, right, you'll
35:30
see a break in a breakthrough route will come, but it won't
35:33
come in the sense of some sort of forensic change.
35:37
And it won't come in the sense of like, you know, you get a
35:39
medical examiner that says, oh, I found the missing piece that
35:43
nobody saw over the past decade that in that proves this is
35:47
murder. It could come in the form of
35:51
someone who can't keep their mouth shut and someone after a
35:54
decade of keeping their knowing something can't can't hold it
35:58
inside of them anymore and a guilty conscience.
36:01
And they come forward and they say, I had a conversation with
36:04
so and so and so and so told me XY and Z.
36:07
And that is where you usually see the breakthroughs in these
36:10
things. But if this case, as as it is
36:12
right now and everything that we know about it remains true, it
36:15
is, it is even even with the full force and confidence of the
36:22
prosecutors and detectives behind, it is an incredibly
36:26
difficult case to bring in front of a jury.
36:29
Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I think I brought our
36:32
audience down with that same opinion.
36:34
But I mean that this is This is why it's so important that I
36:40
mean, I think I said this on your show, or at least the call
36:44
in video that I sent you, where like everything about this case
36:49
started with just shoddy police work because they were in the
36:54
middle of a nor'easter and had and you know what?
36:59
I've had bad days. You know, I've had really bad
37:03
days. And they do seem to kind of
37:07
those bad days seem to accumulate around natural
37:11
disasters. And you know, those, those, I
37:14
guess what would we call them? Things in your life, you know,
37:17
that are that are going wrong and stuff like that.
37:19
So I can understand people having a bad day, but this all
37:24
comes down to had they just like, I don't know, rotated her
37:29
body and went oh, oh, yeah. Or said to themselves, I don't
37:35
know that anybody really does that to themselves by stabbing
37:39
them in their heart. Why don't we put, why don't we
37:41
put an extra 15 minutes into this, You know, if they would
37:43
have just done that. Yeah, You know, that's I'm so
37:48
glad you say this that way because that's something I've
37:51
thought about this too, is that, you know, we always look at this
37:54
as they really dropped the ball in the beginning and therefore
37:58
somebody got away with murder and that is 1 conclusion you
38:01
could arrive at. But just being objective and I
38:05
don't know how people are going to respond to this.
38:07
Another way of looking at it at is they dropped the ball in the
38:11
beginning and therefore someone who did take their life in a
38:15
very bizarre way. Now we are all left with all
38:19
these unanswered questions and frustrations because you didn't
38:22
do it handle it properly to begin with.
38:24
In other words, my point being, like, even if it was a suicide
38:29
and they believe that, they should have still investigated
38:32
it thoroughly so that we're not all sitting here going, well,
38:35
what about this and what about that?
38:36
And wait a minute, you're telling me that they witnessed
38:39
him breakdown the door, but nobody witnessed him breakdown?
38:41
Like, give us the answers so that at least people are not
38:45
tormented, including her mother and father over the last 10
38:48
years, that they just feel like somebody got away with it
38:52
because you didn't ask those questions early to begin with,
38:57
does. That make sense yeah.
38:58
And I I guess another layer to that for me when I think about
39:01
the Philly PD again, I just think everybody was having a bad
39:05
day. It was a hard day and and I can
39:09
understand that the, my, my real problem with the Philly PD is
39:13
when I think they recognized we've got a problem here because
39:18
Doctor Osborne said we've got a homicide.
39:20
Did you know she was stabbed in the back of her head 10 times,
39:23
right? They didn't to my observation
39:28
anyway, in my opinion, they didn't go, oh crap, we have made
39:32
a mistake here. Let's, let's see if we can, you
39:34
know, investigate this thing. No, they doubled down and like,
39:40
they did it through the media. They did like a public pressure
39:43
campaign through the media to make the medical examiner's
39:47
office change their mind. And and that to me is like, OK,
39:52
you know, you can, you can make a mistake, but when you endeavor
39:55
to cover up those mistakes, then then I've got a problem.
39:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And why?
40:02
Why pressure the conclusion too with the medical examiner like?
40:09
I feel like we wouldn't even have been as set on fire by this
40:14
whole thing as if they had listened.
40:17
Listen, you want cops presenting as much evidence to the medical
40:21
examiner as possible, right? And if you feel like if the
40:24
medical examiner's getting it wrong, you want those police
40:27
doing the right thing and presenting him with evidence.
40:29
So let's try to assume for a moment that everybody's got
40:32
honest hearts here and you've got a medical examiner that
40:35
draws A conclusion that the police feel like is not
40:37
supported by the evidence. And you want them going to him
40:41
and going, hey, did you know at the time that you arrived at
40:44
this conclusion, XY and Z? But then leave it there, right?
40:50
Let him do his job. And if he wants to come back and
40:52
say, well, even in spite of all of that, I stand by my original
40:56
conclusion or now that I've received this new information,
40:59
I'm going to put it down as undetermined.
41:01
But it was like they, you know, from what we know, it sounds
41:05
like they, they wanted this conclusion of suicide so that
41:09
they could close it and end it and walk away from it and hope
41:13
that that would be the end of it.
41:14
And that added to the conspiracy.
41:17
And like I said, the fuel to the fire that everybody's still
41:19
inflamed about to this day. Yeah, I, I also, I wonder, I
41:27
wonder how many families this has happened to a couple things.
41:31
And I'd loved your your thought on this number one, most people
41:35
don't have 1,000,000 bucks to fight the system for the I mean,
41:41
Josh and Sandy are getting up in years, man.
41:43
They've been spending their their entire, well, it's not
41:48
their entire life, but it's their entire, let's call it
41:50
would have been grandparent stage of their life, right,
41:55
fighting for their daughter. And it just so happens that they
41:59
have the resources and really the grit to do it.
42:02
I mean that the, the, the grit that these two people show is
42:08
pretty remarkable. It is, as they say, True Grit,
42:11
right? There's they're those kinds of
42:14
people. So most so I'm wondering how
42:17
many families have been kind of bulldozed by something like this
42:22
happening. And then the second thing is I
42:25
wonder what your thoughts are like when you were ADA, did you
42:29
ever get a file and thumb through it and look at, oh,
42:32
that's the assistant medical examiner I got on this case.
42:35
Crap, he sucks. He is the worst witness.
42:39
He does such shoddy work because Doctor Osborne, I mean, he did
42:44
copy and paste errors. He just did copy and paste
42:46
errors. He said there was nothing
42:48
remarkable about her neck, but took pictures of the hemorrhage
42:51
inside her neck, you know, and the bruises on her neck.
42:54
I mean, is, is that a thing that I guess, is that something that
43:00
you've experienced where you're like, oh, it's this
43:02
investigator, it's this Emmy, This is not going to go well.
43:06
Yeah, I mean, there were there because you know, the the DA's
43:14
office at least in, in, I'm going off of my experience here
43:17
in LA County, they're they're separate government agencies,
43:20
right? Like they're, they don't work
43:21
with or for each other. The, the, and that's the way it
43:26
should be. The coroner's office should be
43:27
an independent office that does the work of, you know,
43:31
examinations and autopsies. And then they compile their
43:35
reports and they hand it over to the DA's office.
43:37
And there should be very little influence between the two.
43:41
Now, sometimes you go back and you'll ask for clarification on
43:45
something or you'll ask for, did you run a toxicology on this and
43:49
whatever, you know, whatever. But because of because of that,
43:55
we had, you know, the DA's office can't decide who is
43:58
assigned to a case or whether or not somebody should still be in
44:03
that office. That's their office and they can
44:05
run it how they want. I imagine, you know, there are
44:07
people who were in the DA's office that weren't the cops
44:10
wouldn't like bringing their case to a certain prosecutor
44:13
'cause they don't feel like they do a great job.
44:14
So, yeah, there were medical examiner's that you thought,
44:17
God, I wish so and so had been assigned to this, but they
44:21
weren't. And now I've got this report and
44:23
I know this person's not great and not even to the point of
44:26
saying that they get their evaluations wrong, but maybe
44:29
they're just awful on the stand and they can't explain
44:32
themselves and they can't, they don't perform well during a,
44:36
during a, during a, you know, testimony.
44:41
And a lot of times too, the medical examiner, they don't
44:45
necessarily know the public profile that a case is going to
44:49
get when they first get it. So they.
44:51
Might. You know, they might just be
44:53
assigning this to whoever's up next.
44:55
Oh, it's your turn for for an autopsy.
44:58
And that might not be the best person for a case that's going
45:01
to become an incredibly controversial case.
45:04
So, yeah, I mean, I've, I've it is a frustration and a part of
45:09
it is a result of, of that objectiveness that you want to
45:14
exist. But then another part of it is
45:16
that you, it leads to, you know, consequences like this.
45:19
I mean, yeah. I mean, it's, it's it's I again,
45:25
I'm trying to think of how would, how would this case play
45:27
out if you had to put him on the stand and it would be a problem.
45:31
Yeah, here in here in western Pennsylvania, there used to be a
45:36
pathologist that worked at the. He's retired the but at the Erie
45:40
County P as medical examiner's office.
45:42
And I loved it when he was the when he was the pathologist
45:47
because he was the best giver of testimony he could speak to.
45:52
First of all, he spoke loud enough, you know, he was he was,
45:58
oh, man, his testimony was awesome.
46:00
And yeah, I I hear that. And I remember back when when I
46:04
was on that jury, there was this one was a shooting death.
46:08
And what happened with the young men who got shot was they they
46:13
were like shot center mass and then they were shot on the side
46:17
and then they were shot in the back.
46:19
And I remember the prosecutor saying, So what is your
46:23
conclusion that they were that they the victims were turning
46:29
and running. And the forensic pathologist
46:31
said, my opinion is that either the gun was going around them or
46:38
they were going around inside where the gun was.
46:41
And I remember as a juror, I was like, you know, it was it was
46:45
completely clear understood what she was saying.
46:48
She was looking at it from a scientific perspective and she
46:51
wasn't drawing any conclusions. It was cool.
46:54
So having those witnesses are pretty amazing.
46:56
Hey, Mooney is my one of my mods.
46:59
She's my OG. She's been supporting my channel
47:02
since forever, she said. Can you ask Josh Josh if he ever
47:05
worked with Emily Baker? Hi Mooney, Emily and I were in
47:12
the office at the same time, but I never was assigned to the same
47:16
place she was assigned. Like I said that the DA's office
47:19
in LA is enormous and there is a dozen different courtrooms and
47:24
actually more than that, courthouses that are staffed by
47:27
DAS. And so you get assigned all
47:29
around the county. And I just never crossed paths
47:32
with her. But I I do know that we were in
47:34
the office at the same time and we know a lot of the the same
47:36
folks and I hear nothing but good things.
47:41
She's an impressive YouTube, I'll tell you that.
47:43
Yes. Oh.
47:44
My goodness, yeah. I I imagine working with a staff
47:47
of 1000 lawyers, with all the other support staff and
47:50
everything. You can't possibly know
47:51
everybody in the office. No, that's like going to a
47:55
liberal arts, funny, small liberal arts college.
47:58
You've got to. Yeah, that's what it's.
48:00
Like, yeah, you know, a lot of you know enough that, like I
48:04
said, there's usually only 1° of separation.
48:06
So I know people who were assigned with her, but I was
48:10
never assigned with her myself. Cool.
48:14
Let's see, T Suze says. Gavin and Josh, was there
48:17
anything that surprised you in the dock talking about the
48:19
docuseries that came out on Hulu?
48:21
Did you check out that at all? I did.
48:23
I did. What did you think of it?
48:27
I thought it was incredibly well done, but I don't know this case
48:30
to the granular level like you do.
48:32
I I thought it was incredibly well done and I thought they did
48:35
a very good job. Well, again, I want to hear your
48:39
opinion, but I thought they did a good job of kind of trying to
48:43
be as objective and not point you towards the conclusion that
48:47
at the end of it, I felt probably about as confused as I
48:51
was to begin with, which is kind of a good thing sometimes in
48:54
these documentaries. I mean, it certainly drove home
48:57
the points that you've already made tonight about this was
49:00
handled poorly to begin with. There was a lot of pressure
49:03
campaigns and politics playing a role in this that should not
49:06
have played a role. But at the end of the day, it
49:09
was kind of like, I remember turning to to T Suze, who's my
49:12
wife, by the way. Oh yeah.
49:15
Yeah. This is Tiffany.
49:17
This is Tiffany turning, turning to her and going, you know what?
49:22
I have not heard anything yet that makes me go this is
49:26
absolutely this or absolutely that.
49:29
Like it's everything about this case and that's why we're still
49:31
talking about it 10 plus years later.
49:34
Everything about it, you, there's things that are
49:37
convincing and questionable kind of on both sides.
49:40
I don't know though. How do you feel after watching
49:42
it? So I, I haven't given this much
49:47
detail about the doc, but the documentary started as a Laura
49:51
Diamond Gavin Fish project. And yeah, and Laura and I worked
49:56
together for about 3-4 years on it and I was happy to help as,
50:03
as a source and to help her get to the right place.
50:07
Now, I, I don't want to take away anything the Laura did
50:10
because freaking Laura is an amazing reporter that I can't
50:13
believe the people that she chased down.
50:14
She's just absolutely amazing. But Laura and I worked on that
50:18
together for a few years. And then when Black Fan, which
50:22
was bought by Lionsgate, kind of became involved.
50:28
I just don't like the entertainment industry.
50:31
I just, I, I don't like the business of it.
50:33
I like the product of it. So everything that is in that
50:36
document, I am there in that docu series.
50:40
I am intimately familiar that it was going to be there, or at
50:43
least that they were talking about putting it there.
50:45
And I know all the things that they weren't going to put in
50:47
there. So there wasn't anything that
50:49
surprised me in the doc. There were some things that were
50:51
missing. But I think that to your point,
50:56
they did that on purpose, one, because they had to stay
50:58
objective, right? That this is an ABC News
51:01
documentary. They have to stay objective
51:04
third party. And yeah, so like the whole Josh
51:09
Shapiro thing, they didn't really get into the whole James
51:12
Schwartzman, Kamian Schwartzman thing.
51:14
They didn't get into. They didn't get into the
51:17
strangulation aspect of it. They didn't get into a lot that
51:20
well, They barely did. They kind of did right there.
51:24
But also what was it, you know, 345 minute, you know, episodes.
51:30
So it's not like it's not like you can cover that in, in that
51:34
the entire case in that amount of time.
51:36
So I've been, but I was impressed.
51:39
I was I was deeply impressed. And as soon as it was, as soon
51:43
as I watched it, I reached out to Laura, I reached out to
51:45
Nancy, who's the director and executive producer.
51:47
I reached out to everybody on there just to congratulate them
51:50
on on what they did. I couldn't participate in it
51:54
because if I did, I'm sure there would have been a murderer and I
51:58
would have been accused of. I just hate the entertainment
52:01
business so much. But it would have driven me to
52:05
murder. But they barely John.
52:13
I also felt too, I really appreciated the the way that
52:19
they portrayed her mother, Josh and Sandy.
52:27
I could have easily have seen in the hands of different
52:31
documentarians, them almost making them look a little, you
52:36
know, Don Quixote ish, that they're kind of chasing after a
52:39
thing that's unattainable. But they, they, I felt it was
52:42
kind of a loving portrayal of a of, you know, parents lost their
52:46
only child and they've now made it a mission to make sure that
52:50
she has not been forgotten and mistreated by the by the system.
52:55
I thought that was well done. Yeah.
52:58
I think one of the things that that I think is pretty freaking
53:03
remarkable about Josh and Sandy is that through all of this,
53:06
they have remained faithful and loving to one another.
53:10
Like that is the gauntlet that they have been running through.
53:14
And the fact that they've held hands the entire time is pretty
53:16
impressive. And I'm glad that I'm glad that
53:19
they, that they portrayed it that way because it I, I know.
53:25
And they and they said in the dock, too, that that it was
53:28
difficult on them at different times.
53:31
And I so, yeah, I loved that. I loved the little scenes with
53:34
Caroline, who is Sandy's niece. And yeah, they, they, they did
53:42
the Greenbergs, right. And I was really grateful for
53:44
that. Let's see.
53:46
O Contrera wants to know if I can tie my hair up yet.
53:48
I can. Yes, I can tie up my hair.
53:54
Let's see. Shopping addicts just got here.
53:56
So happy to see it's a collab between you 2.
53:59
Glad that we glad that we did. It's pretty fun.
54:03
I just want to see if there are any other questions here instead
54:06
of just going through. Was it a hung jury?
54:10
I think she might be asking about my No, no, I was a
54:14
convincing politician in that jury and I, I Josh, I'm not
54:22
super proud of this, but we had to negotiate as a junior and I
54:27
ended up, I ended up giving, I wanted two first degree murders
54:32
and we negotiated one first degree, one second degree.
54:36
That's how we ended up doing that.
54:38
Well. Can I say something?
54:39
Though too, you do, you know, how many like to your point of
54:43
how these things end up and how do they ever come up with a
54:46
conviction? What if there wasn't a you in
54:49
that in that room? There may have been somebody as
54:51
thoroughly convinced by you, but just not in it for the fight.
54:54
And when people say they we, we can't decide, OK, you know, I
54:57
want to go home. OK, I'm not going to I'm not
54:59
going to put in the work. I mean, how many how many trials
55:03
do we see end up in hung juries? And I think that's just because
55:05
people don't want to really give it the time and effort.
55:08
They just kind of go, oh, OK, let's all agree to disagree and
55:11
get out of here. And hopefully the judge declares
55:13
A mistrial and we're on our way home.
55:15
We saw one yesterday in the murder of Kirby Carpenter down
55:18
in Ripley County. No, I'm sorry.
55:21
Ripley, Ms. Yeah, they, they they deliberated for something
55:27
like 6 hours and said no, we we are impossibly deadlocked.
55:33
Well, apparently none of you are married.
55:35
Have you ever had an actual argument?
55:37
Come on. Pretty crazy.
55:40
OK, let's see if there are any other questions.
55:45
No, let's see, has the Pi or family, Jen says, looked into
55:49
how easy it is to Jimmy those door locks so it can look like
55:52
it was locked from the inside. Yeah, but I don't think that's
55:56
the question. They've they've looked at all
55:58
that, but I don't even think that's the right question.
56:01
It's the question that people often ask.
56:03
And yeah, no shade at you, Jen, but I I think what we should be
56:09
asking is, was the door actually locked?
56:13
And I don't think it was. Yeah.
56:16
No, but there is one witness, one neighbor who said that they
56:20
saw Sam outside of the door. But.
56:25
Struggling to get in or something.
56:26
Yeah, but I don't think the door was locked that that's me and I
56:32
think that's it. So Josh, thanks for coming, man.
56:36
That was a fun conversation. This was.
56:38
Great. This time flew by, by the way.
56:41
Yeah, holy crap. It's been, we're coming up on an
56:44
hour that did fly by. What's going on in your channel?
56:47
What? What do you want people to know
56:49
on your channel? You know what I would love for
56:51
them to know first of all, if they don't subscribe, please
56:54
come over to courtroom confidential and subscribe.
56:57
We'd love to have you. And, and we have a, an interview
57:02
with Gavin that we kind of did turn the tables on the
57:06
investigative reporter and asked him about his, his life and
57:09
background, which you guys should check out.
57:10
But we put a lot of work into a recent video that's up on our
57:15
channel right now where we did a deep dive into the Rex Heuermann
57:19
case and we put a lot of time into it.
57:22
We did some interviews with people who've been following the
57:24
case very closely, a lot of kind of background information and
57:29
archive footage and everything. And it's, it's up right now.
57:32
It's called case notes. Rex Heuermann I really invite
57:37
people to go check that out, 'cause we just really kind of
57:41
put a lot of sweat and tears into it.
57:42
And it, I, I'm very proud of the product.
57:45
I, I, you know, the amount, the amount of, the amount of
57:49
resources and time and people that somebody has like a
57:52
dateline has working on it. I, I feel like we're, we're,
57:56
we're giving them a run for their money on a, on a shoelace
57:59
and Scotch tape budget. So do you know, man, what I'm
58:05
blanking on his name. I've known him for years.
58:09
Do you know John Ray? He's he's an attorney who
58:12
represents one of the, well, a couple of the families of
58:16
victims out there. No, but I when you said the
58:20
name, I immediately kind of recognized it and I think that's
58:22
why, but I do. Not know he's always in a fancy
58:25
hat. He's he's always dressed for the
58:27
name that guy. If you want an introduction, if
58:29
you want to do a follow up and talk with a fascinating person,
58:32
I will introduce you to John Ray.
58:34
Oh, absolutely. He knows that case inside and
58:37
out. So yeah, everybody head on over
58:40
to Courtroom confidential. I've got it.
58:42
LinkedIn the title and in the description, give him a, give
58:46
him a subscribe if you think he's earned it.
58:48
I think he has. And yeah, that's so thankful
58:52
that you came on and hopefully we'll do this every once in a
58:56
while. It'd be great to have you
58:57
anytime. Love to.
58:58
All right, cool, hang out for just one second while I do my
59:01
outro. Hey guys, just again, big thanks
59:05
to Joshua Ritter from Courtroom Confidential to come in on
59:08
tonight. That was amazing.
59:10
For those of you who are come who are watching, who are
59:13
viewers of Josh's, thanks for coming over and watching over
59:16
here. I just want to real quickly give
59:19
a quick little plug to the website.
59:21
There is a page on the Ellen Greenberg case that is thorough.
59:26
I'm just going to zoom on past there.
59:28
You can see all the stuff, so if you want to know about the Alan
59:34
Greenberg case, that is a great place to go while you're on my
59:37
website. If you ever want to reach out to
59:39
me and click on this little envelope right there, that will
59:42
be the way that you can contact me.
59:44
Having a hard time loading right now?
59:46
And then if you click on this little fishy logo the right
59:48
there, that will take you to the fish tank on Facebook where we
59:50
hang out coming up on 5500 folks that are in the tank right now.
59:55
If you are on Facebook and that is your thing, we invite you to
59:58
come and join us and chat about true crime with that.
1:00:02
With again thanks to Josh for coming on.
1:00:04
I bid you adieu and I will see you on the next one.
1:00:07
Take care. Thank you very much for watching
1:00:10
this video. If you liked what you saw,
1:00:12
please consider subscribing and if you have any questions or
1:00:16
comments, please leave them below.