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The Reparenting Process · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:09
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gaiman Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host today, Matt Lansadel, and joining me are Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Welcome, boys. Okay, today we're talking about the reparenting process. We're exploring remothering and re fathering ourselves and what that looks like. So we're going to be unpacking the tender questions of what needs went unmet for you in childhood? How did you cope with these unmet needs as a child? And how have you learned how to meet these needs for yourself as an adult? So we're essentially talking about inner child work. Reparenting. It's going to be a good conversation. I have a good feeling about it. What we want you, the listener, viewer, to get out of it is just the impact that having unmet childhood needs can have on your life and what you can do about it as an adult. We're essentially really talking about trauma. Trauma is unmet needs, right? So we're going to be unpacking. Some of it might be big T trauma, but some of it might be small T trauma. All is valid. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, so reparenting, it's essentially a term used to describe a process that we go through when we heal and learn how to take care of our inner child. So reparenting is about learning how to meet our unmet childhood needs and parent ourselves in ways that we were not parented as children. All right? It's extremely hard as a parent. I'm not a parent, so I can't speak to it. But for those of you who are listening, who are, I can't even imagine you have this little being that you're in charge of all of its needs. And it's very hard to meet every single need of a child. So I think there's room in this conversation for empathy, understanding, compassion, and even forgiveness for our parents for these unmet needs. And that doesn't mean that we're not going to have to grieve and hold them accountable and these sorts of things. But I think that's an important part of this conversation, too, is it's not about blaming. I think it's really about taking responsibility, and that's that stage in the journey, when we start doing the reparenting, we're taking responsibility for ourselves. That's a big part of this as well. So two extremely important aspects of parenting, just in general parenting, is protection and compassion. These are very, very important skills for parents to have. And when we do get this, when we get protection and compassion, we are more likely to develop self protection and self compassion, two extremely important things that we need as human beings, as adults, in order to take care of ourselves, get our needs met. So traditional gender roles in our society often assign protection to the father and compassion to the mother. That's why I put in the subtext of this episode, remothering and refathering ourselves. We all have the ability to nurture and we all have the ability to protect, right? It just happens to be that they get assigned in those gender roles. But we all have an inner masculine or an inner feminine yin yang, whatever you want to describe it as. So we can actually provide these two things. We can protect ourselves and we can be compassionate towards ourselves. So it's important to note that in order to go on the reparenting process, it requires us to first develop a relationship with our inner child. It's extremely important. You can't reparent something that you don't, that you're not connected to. So we first want to start to connect to the inner child. And for those of you who don't know or have never heard this term before, the inner child is, from my perspective, a collection of memories of periods in our lives that have shaped who we are and who we've become. And we have different versions of the inner child based on different ages, different periods in our lives, different memories. And it's really important to give each version a voice. When we start to work with the inner child, and we have the inner child, we have the inner toddler, we have the inner teenager. We have all these versions of ourselves at different points in our development. And it's important to work with, with all of them. I'm just going to list off a few examples of what reparenting yourself might look like. Speaking to yourself in a kind and loving manner. Using daily positive affirmations. Practicing self regulation or emotional regulation skills. Advocating for your needs to be met in your relationships. Respecting your personal boundaries. Rebuilding trust with your inner child by keeping promises to yourself, Practicing self validation of your emotions, taking an interest in yourself, practicing a lot of self care, practicing self holding or hugging, doing things that bring you joy and allow you to be playful and celebrating all the wins along the way. So some of those, you might even take inventory right now, like, oh, yeah, I didn't really get that as a kid. So I'm not quite sure how to do that for myself. I'm not sure sure how to celebrate my wins along the way. Maybe you're really hard on yourself. And I think this is what we want this conversation to be about. This conversation might highlight for you the unmet needs in your childhood that maybe you weren't aware of. So it's just something to. To take note of. And I want to just mention too, right before we hop into our first question. I often find this, this is in myself, but also in a lot of people that I work with. People pleasers, if you're a people pleaser out there, people pleasers tend to have an underdeveloped fight response. And when I say fight response, I'm meaning like in a healthy way in the sense of self protection. They didn't really learn that self protection mechanism, so they fawn as a way to try and deal with whatever, a threat or fear, these sorts of things. And then on the other end of the spectrum, people that have a strong inner critic or even an outer critic, you're really judgmental of yourself or others, these people tend to have an underdeveloped self compassion, right? So they're really hard on themselves. They don't know how to be gentle with themselves. So that ends up manifesting as being hard on other people as well. So it just gives you kind of an idea of the spectrum that we'll be talking about today. So, all right, this is the golden question. I asked this before I do any inner child work with people in my practice. What needs went unmet for you in childhood? It takes a lot of journaling. It takes a lot of going back to memories where you felt insecure or scared as a child. And it requires a lot of being able to move through grief to answer this question. So there's. There might be some tenderness in today's conversation, and we can definitely hold space for that. So let's start with. Let's start with Reno today. What needs went unmet for you in childhood?
• 6:31
  Speaker C: Well, I'll preface my response by saying that I revealed as we were gearing up to have this conversation, that I came in feeling kind of tender and vulnerable. There's some synchronicity around this topic because my mom actually reached out to me recently and asked if we could have an amends conversation. Some of our listeners and viewers have met her through the podcast and might Be surprised to know that, like, she would have amends to make. I don't know. But yeah, the timeliness of this is really interesting. So I'll go through the list and I'll say that it was really challenging to write down how my needs were unmet by my parents and some of the people around me, because I love them and I care about them. And so I love that you prefaced by saying this isn't about blame and shame and all of that, but simply identifying what needs went unmet, you know, and. And acknowledging that this is a difficult task. A challenging task. So I wrote acceptance, peace of mind, stability, security, mourning, self, expression. In some ways, intimacy, companionship, affection, shared reality, trust, communication. Again, in some ways. That was essentially my list. And I want to share if anyone listening is looking for a tool to be able to identify some of these needs. There's a course that I participated in. It's called the Compassion course. And if you Google compassion course and needs, there's a whole list and they're categorized into specific areas. Autonomy, connection, peace, meaning physical, well, being, play. So you can go through that list, and it'll definitely help you figure out which ones you know. As you're going through the list, if you notice you feel something, that's probably where you want to look. So I would say that's predominantly my list of unmet needs. Yeah.
• 8:58
  Speaker B: I'm curious if there's one that really stands out for you that really kind of got you in the field. And I think the thing I would want to know once you identify that one, would be, like, the impact that that had on you as a child.
• 9:10
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think the one that really comes up is probably like, I notice I feel some tenderness in my heart when I look at trust, shared reality, and companionship. I think those three kind of tug on my heartstrings. Trust, because, yeah, there was a lot that went on in my environment that really made it difficult for me to trust the people around me, to trust the people who were there to care for me. And I often had to read between the lines. Like I say to people that one of the reasons why my extra sensory capacities, you know, including intuition or like my empathic gifts are as they are, is because I existed in an environment where I was constantly having to see what wasn't there or look for what wasn't there, hear what wasn't being said, and really kind of read between the lines, kind of this detective. And so other parts of me came online so that I could move in support of myself. I guess. Yeah. So that's definitely a big one. And then I guess, to speak to companionship and shared reality. My mom said to me that for as long as she could remember, like, from the time I was a kid, I craved deep and meaningful and intimate connection and relationships. And I would say during childhood, that was sort of there. But it was also quite difficult, you know, it was also quite difficult to, I think, to access that and experience it and then shared reality. Well, like, how do you tell your friends and the people around you that you, like, live in? I guess some of the circumstances that I was existing in. You know, it's like, hey, my parents are addicts. Or, like, you know, they're not always home or I don't always feel stable and secure in my environment. Like, what? You know, it's like, how do you communicate all of that? Like, at, you know, five or seven or, you know, even 10? Like, my first confidant was in high school, to be honest. And what was amazing was that as I started to open up, and this is unfortunate, actually, because he passed away. He died while I was in high school. And he was, like, one of my best friends. And, you know, some of those needs were met through that relationship. So it was heartbreaking. But he was one of the first people that I opened up to and said, hey, here's what's going on, you know, so, yeah, I'm okay, by the way. But, yeah, it's intense.
• 12:03
  Speaker B: It is, yeah. I want to. I want to honor you. I want to honor, like, I can feel it, that there's a lot of tenderness around it. And I just want to honor, like, the little you. The little nervous system in you that, like, never felt like it could land.
• 12:15
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 12:15
  Speaker B: It always had to be hyper observing, hyper vigilant of the next thing to look out for. So that's a tough way to grow up.
• 12:22
  Speaker A: Right.
• 12:22
  Speaker B: And no wonder that you couldn't trust. Right?
• 12:26
  Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you.
• 12:28
  Speaker B: What about for you, Michael? What needs went unmet for you in childhood?
• 12:32
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks for sharing, guys. And thanks, Matt, for the intro. Thank you, Reena, for going first so vulnerably there. First of all, you know, I love this topic and these questions. The intro was really good. I think already. I hope a lot of people are thinking about it because I think inner child work before you do it can be very, like, intangible. And hopefully this conversation helps give people examples and make it more tangible for them because it is important. So the way that I answer these three questions, and I love that they're kind of in order. And I'll draw the thread through them as we go. But I'll start with the first one, which is what needs went unmet for me in childhood. I went back to the earliest memories of childhood. So I'm answering it from age 4, 5, 6, maybe up to 10. Okay. Just keep that in mind. And so I can find examples of all of a lot of different unmet needs. And I'm sure we all could do that. But I wanted to answer, like, one in particular that was pretty common throughout my childhood, and that was the need for connection and belonging, not necessarily with my parents or with my family, but with other kids. And this does connect to my parents as we go. I'll explain how, but I was a very lonely kid in those early years. My sister was seven years older than me, so if I was five, she was 12. She had her own thing going on. I was left to my own devices when it came to playing. So we didn't play together. And when it came to going to school like jk, sk whatnot, making friends didn't come naturally to me. I was extremely quiet, painfully shy, very nervous around other kids. And I remember my family caught onto that fairly quickly. By the way, I should also mention my sister's completely the opposite. She's very good at making friends, very social. So when my family saw that I was really struggling in this, I remember, like, them telling me, oh, you should be more outgoing. You should be more social. And, like, I remember them, like, talking and me just kind of overhearing and thinking, like, something's wrong with me. They're talking about me as if something is wrong with me. So that hurt, right? That was the beginning of my not good enough. And I'm like 4, 5, 6 years old, right? I don't understand this. And then when they did try to push me to go, go do social things, go be social, go play with people, right? It felt very pushy. It felt like they didn't understand me. It felt like they didn't accept me for who I was. And it just simply felt like they wanted me to be someone else. Like I wasn't. Again, that wasn't good enough. And that was, looking back, probably one of my first, if not my very first, not good enough seed planted. And it was always around that concept of the difficulty for me to make friends. Now I understand, and I'm really happy we're talking about this now as an adult. I understand their point of view. I totally get it. Like, oh, he's really shy. Let's you know, he's got to go learn how to socialize. So of course they're going to push me into things. But what was missing was it wasn't the right approach for me. I didn't want to be thrown in the deep end of the pool. That was not my approach. It would have been a lot better if they sat down and said, listen, we love you, you're amazing. What we want for you, Michael, is to like, you know, have some friends and have some connection. We don't want you to be lonely. And so what's the best way for you? Like, how do you think you want to do it? That's not what happened, of course. Right. And I don't blame my parents at all.
• 15:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:30
  Speaker A: I want to say that it is very hard to do that. So, you know, it wasn't that I didn't want to have friends. I did. I just wasn't comfortable in those typical settings like at the time that people made friends as kids and I resisted everything that my parents wanted to put me in. Sports, Cub Scouts, all the things. I just wasn't that kid who wanted to play with other kids in that way that like, maybe they were used to or that that's all they knew. Right. That's all they knew. Go outside and play. I didn't want to run around with other kids. I remember as a kid in JK SK Grade one, really wanting to hang out with my teacher and gravitating towards the adults in the room and my teacher, maybe one or two other super quiet kids. We kind of like play together, but what we actually did is like we'd play by ourselves, beside each other, if that makes any sense. We wouldn't actually interact so much. But he'd play with his Lego set, I'd play with my Lego set. But we'd be in the same area, so people would kind of like leave us alone. That was how it was. Now again, I wasn't sad about this. Like looking back, I don't think I was sad about it. It was a lonely yes, but I wasn't necessarily sad. I just didn't want to play with those other kids in the way my parents family wanted to. So that's my unmet need. Connection with other kids was the unmet need, but also from a parenting perspective, just acceptance that I wasn't like those other kids.
• 16:41
  Speaker B: Again, I feel a lot of tenderness around little Michael and like, you know, what does Michael want? Like, I find that sometimes parents project onto children and that can be very harmful. Right. It's like, you know, especially. I know. I think I got you to take the HSP test, and you scored quite high on it. Right. So you do define yourself as an.
• 17:01
  Speaker A: HSP in some ways. It sounds very much so. Very much so.
• 17:08
  Speaker B: Young HSP children often get labeled as shy, but really they're just sensitive. They're picking up on so much in their environment. There's too much stimulus. Other kids are loud and pushy and touchy, and it's just a lot. Right. So I had the very similar experience as a child, and it's like, it's tough to navigate that and. But so, same question that I asked Reno. What impact did it have on you to have this little. This I'm not good enough seed planted and kind of feeling like you were different?
• 17:32
  Speaker A: Well, of course, it was like the birthplace of shame, I guess. Like, something's wrong with me. I'm not good enough. And it's. Something's wrong with who I am. And I didn't feel like anything was wrong with me, so I felt hurt. It actually probably isolated me more. I think my coping, which we can get to in the next question, but my coping was to just isolate myself further. Yeah. I'll leave it there for now and not give away my next answer. Okay.
• 17:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I was torn between having that be the second question, and then I changed it to the second one, so I wanted to ask that one anyway.
• 18:04
  Speaker C: Oh, and I wanted to say real quick, what you described, Michael, earlier is the term I learned was parallel play, and it's.
• 18:12
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 18:13
  Speaker C: Yeah. Where two people will be in the same room doing separate activities, but still, you know, being in connection and shared space. And honestly, sometimes I really love that. Like, sometimes I'm like, I don't really want to interact so much. I just want you in the room, you know?
• 18:29
  Speaker A: Perfect. I love that. There's a word for it. Thank you.
• 18:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very common for neurodivergent people. I think it comes out of, like, you know, people with asda, Autism spectrum disorder is. That's how they tend to like to engage because it's. Can be overstimulating, engaging with somebody and being highly social. So it's like, cool, I'll draw and you can play Lego, and we'll just be dandy.
• 18:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. And it looks like we're not alone. So. People.
• 18:56
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about you, Matt?
• 19:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, this. I do feel tenderness, but I've done a tremendous amount. I've spent the last year doing a lot of Family of origin work. I've did a lot of EMDR around it. There feels like space now. I don't feel grief as much and stuff anymore. I feel more forgiveness for my parents, these sorts of things. But I'm able to still really connect with the scars. I say, like, the, the scars aren't controlling my, my life, but they're always going to be there, right? And they're just reminders of, of a challenging childhood. And I think the, the first one that stands out for me is stability. I didn't have stability, like, at all as a child. There was a lot of chaos in the home. My parents split when I was young. I had to move between homes every week and then every other week. It was just like I've never had. My system could never settle. So that was a big piece. And then the trust issues started to develop. Like, I felt very betrayed by my parents. I felt I was navigating being gay. And as soon as the divorce happened, like, my sister went her way, my mom went her way, my dad went. Went his way. And I kind of felt almost like abandoned. Like I, I didn't have support. I was dealing with being sensitive and empathic and gay and all these things. And I kind of felt like was. I was floundering. So there was a lot of like, trust issues that I had. And then I went. I really struggled a lot as a kid with feeling safe, you know, in my own body, in my own nervous system. But I think this really, you know, my parents were young when they, when they had me. Like, you know, I'm turning 40 and I'm like, still like, geez, if I had a kid, like, that would be tough, like, so to be like 20 years old, you know, in your 20s, having children. Like, so my, the unmet need for me was emotionally mature parents, they just were not emotionally mature. And so that led to a lot of conflict in the home, a lot of behaviors on both of their parts that really led to unsafe environments, things like that. So I think. And you know, and when you have emotional immaturity, there's going to be a lack of ability to be able to emotionally attune. So I didn't feel like I had emotional attunement as a kid, which is a support and validation of your emotions. And I think that for me is. Would have been so huge in my development, and I would have developed a lot stronger and a stronger sense of self because I'm a very emotional creature. I'm highly sensitive. I had very big emotions as a kid. And so to not have a support in that area, I think that's where my big T trauma was. It was like, because I. I kind of took that as, like, no one's there to support me. No one's there to take an interest in my inner world. So I felt, like, very alone. And then obviously my way of coping with that was to go into, like, a lot of hyper independence. Just like, okay, it's not there for me. Great, I'm going to shut off my need to even need people, and I'm just going to do everything on my own. And that was probably like the birthplace of my lone wolf syndrome and, and all that. So that's kind of in a nutshell. And I just want to really reflect on, like, I'm like, wow, I've done so much work in this area because I don't really feel. I feel like I'm able to talk about it without there being any grief, which is pretty cool. All right, for those of you who are watching on YouTube, let us know in the comments what needs went unmet for you in childhood. If that feels too vulnerable for you, just take a moment, pause the video or the audio, and just take a moment and reflect on this question because it's a really important question. I think once we understand the answer to that question, we'll understand how we are subconsciously showing up in our relationships trying to get these needs met that never got met as children. If you can start to understand what those are, you can start to find healthy ways of getting those needs met. You'll stop playing out dysfunctional patterns in your relationships. So it's a golden question for a reason. And if you want to come and unpack this further with us, you can come join us in our connection circles, which we go into pods of three and we start to unpack lots of questions revolving around this, the topic. Then we have our sharing circles where you can come and you can get on the little mini zoom stage and share your thoughts and feelings and let everybody hear your experiences. So there's two great opportunities. And to learn more about that, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com check out the events tab. And we will also join our email list and we'll. We'll email you all the information that you need to join those. So, all right. How did you cope with these unmet needs as a child, Reno?
• 23:07
  Speaker C: Well, I want to say my mom had me when she was, I think, 21 or 22. So I'm glad you mentioned that earlier because I had this Flashback to where I was at when I was 21 or 22. And, like, I'm, like, just learning to wipe my own ass at, you know, like, in my 30s. So, you know, I'm like, props. Props to the people who did their best, you know, and that was a joke. I'm. I'm good. But really, though, you know, it's. It's difficult. Things, like, life is difficult in your 20s. One of the first things that comes up, though, it's so funny. I'm like, I'm probably gonna need some therapy soon. This is an area I haven't delved, like, all the way into, you know, and again, I'm all right. It's just interesting to notice the tenderness here. Yeah. I spent time out of the house. I found I was sort of the ringleader. And so what I would do is I would escape and I would go on adventures. You know, like, we'd ride our bikes and, you know, go play outside and kind of get into trouble outside. And. And then there was another thing I noticed happening, and I wasn't the only person who did this. It was really interesting to see, even sometimes, the ways in which there was a competitiveness among some of the other folks in the neighborhood or, like, the longing. As I'm looking back, I'm like, wow. But what I would do is I would connect with a family that had all of the things that were missing in my household, you know, so it was like, oh, there seems to be a lot of acceptance here, a lot of stability here, a lot of security here, or, you know, like, there were things in a space. And I just. I found ways to. To access that in other households. Right. And then again, notice that that was common. Like, it's so interesting because I can even see some of the neighborhood kids coming to my house and my mom kind of being their therapist or, you know, coming and spending time in our home because perhaps it was more stable than theirs or different than theirs, you know, so it was. It was interesting to see that that was one of the ways. Another way to cope was escapism through, like, imagination and fantasy. I played video games a lot, and, yeah, I was. I was quite into gaming. I would, like, rent games all the time or watch movies and, you know, pull all nighters and stay up playing, like Zelda, like, trying to complete, you know, the whole game before school on Monday or, you know, but I loved gaming. And. Yeah. And then I think what started to show up a little bit later was Grandma's place. You know, she became a sanctuary for me in a lot of ways. So when I went to her place, acceptance, peace of mind, stability. This is gonna make me cry probably, you know, security, mourning, self expression, intimacy, companionship, affection, trust, communication, shared reality. Yeah, it's wild to say all that out loud because, yeah, her home was. Her home was all of that for me. And I guess that's why I always. I always say I'm like, grandma was sanctuary, or grandma's home was sanctuary for me, because, I guess because, yeah, it's where a lot of my needs were being met, and she didn't get it so right the first time, you know, like, my mom is a product of my grandmother and her father, my grandpa, and she was neglected in a lot of ways, you know? So I think my grandma got better and saw an opportunity to get it right. As grandparents do. They're like, oh, you know, I can't wait to have grandbabies so I can do this again and do it right. And my grandma did a really, really good job, you know, so thank you for this. I came in tender, and I knew there was something there. And it's so interesting to see how therapeutic this conversation has been. It's probably one of the most therapeutic topics for me that we've explored on this podcast, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to go here.
• 27:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. It's. I kept getting this visualization of, like, you just being, like, super adaptive. Like, just. And, like, that's kind of like how I see you, too. Like, you're like a little hustler, you know?
• 27:58
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 27:58
  Speaker B: Hustling. And you're just getting things done, and, like, you probably had the. Like, had to grow up too quick. But there's. There's a downside to that, but there's also a positive to that.
• 28:09
  Speaker C: You nailed it. Adapt. Adaptivity, resourcefulness, Hustle, you know, like, I think is a beautiful word. Hustle. I mean, I have that in spades, you know? Like. And it's great because. And we'll probably get to this in the third question, but, like, you drop me somewhere. I'll figure it out, you know, like, you could put me in Toronto or Timbuktu, and I'm like, I'll find my way, you know, and I'll probably make all sorts of friends in the process, and, you know. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that reflection.
• 28:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. What's this question bring up for you, Michael?
• 28:46
  Speaker A: Shout out to all the grandmas. Because Reno, my nonna, was also my safe space, and I was very fortunate to have had spent a lot of time with my grandparents because my parents were separated, my mom was working. So my grandparents took care of me a lot in those early years. And very similar to you, I felt very safe there. And so, yeah, shout out to all the. All the grandmas and grandpas out there. How did I cope with these unmet needs as a child? I've got a lot to say here, and I think Matt will resonate with some of this as well. But, yeah, so recall, I struggled to connect with other kids, and my parents and the adults in my life were like, I felt very pushy and not accepting and not compassionate about that. So what I did is I kind of withdrew even more and I got really good at being alone. And I think looking back, I just made the most of it. I was, I think, naturally a very imaginative, curious kid. And I love to learn. I don't know which one came first, if that was because I was alone or that one came first, but either way, I really went down that path. I also like books. I had a lot of books. My family always teases me that my best friend was my atlas. I would just. Just love soaking up all the information from that atlas and just. And to this day, I'm a world traveler for. For a reason, right? I also loved listening to music a lot. Music was my best friend. I would go literally everywhere with, this is going to age me, my Walkman. If you don't know what a Walkman is, you're very young with my Walkman. And I would have my little mixtapes in there, and I'd have my headphones on. So think of it. Even the image, right? I'm me isolating myself from the world with my. In my little cocoon of music, which we talked about in previous episodes, was very much a big part of my. My identity. So Reno for you might have been gaming. For me, it was just, you know, music and books and solo activities outdoors. You know, once I got a little bit older and I was allowed to go do things outside on my own, I remember not wanting to do any team sports, not wanting to play with the kids outside, street hockey, whatever the hell they're doing. Not interested. But I loved riding my bike because I could do it alone and I could get the hell out of here. So I'd hop on my bike, bring my Walkman, and I would go, now, guys, this is when I was, like, young. I am 42 now, and I still do the same thing. My Walkman is now replaced with my iPhone, But I do the same thing. So this is. This is like, really early stuff here. I'd also go to walks and go for walks in the park and go find ravines. And again, this is all very, very familiar. Right. I actually remember a story where my dad would take me to the beach. We loved going to the beach. And other kids would, like, you know, build a sandcastle and like, go on their way and play with other kids and go swimming. But no, that was not me. I did not build a sandcastle. I built an entire civilization. Right. Because I just got so into it and I was so imaginative and creative. And then these other kids would want to come play with me and say, oh, I want to help you. And I would be like, no, I didn't say bitch. No. But in my own, like, kid way. Like, no, like, don't help me. I don't want your help. I want to do this on my own. So it's very much a. The beginning of my lone wolf, as Matt had said. I totally get that. I built this safety bubble around myself, which was fine for me. I was very comfortable in it. I liked it. It was good. I feel that way very much today. This has not gone anywhere. So, you know, I wasn't lonely. I was independent. And that's how I coped. I coped by becoming reliant on myself. Very self reliant. It's where independent Michael was born. And he is alive and well to this very day. I love being on my own. As I'm sitting here now, guys, I'm traveling alone. I'm in Mexico City by myself. Right. So this has taught me a lot of amazing things. I will also say that it was a coping mechanism, but it also. I didn't learn how to connect with other kids. I didn't learn how to make friends. So my independence became my superpower. Yes, but at the cost of not actually learning to face that challenge of connecting with other kids my age, I just kind of made the most of it. I learned that if I didn't fit into the world around me, I would just create my own, which is not a bad thing. But I think there is some balance there. And we'll talk about that in the next question.
• 32:43
  Speaker B: It doesn't surprise me that you're an entrepreneur. Well, all three of us, actually.
• 32:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker B: And we all have hyper independence in our story. That's funny.
• 32:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. Kids would want to play and I'd be like, ah, how do I say no?
• 32:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, I kind of still feel like that, to be honest. Like, I'm very, very Comfortable in aloneness. And I don't often feel loneliness. I will, but it's more. My body will feel loneliness, but mentally, like, I could keep myself occupied on an island by myself for months. Truly, like, I'm. I'm just like that. And I actually find I get agitated when I'm around people for too long. It's. Yeah, there's a. It's just classic HSP stuff. Okay. So, yeah, like, the first one for me is I just overdeveloped a sense of independence, like hyper independence to the nines. And that was with my family, though. Like, it was like, okay, this is what's causing me pain and suffering. I'm going to start hanging out with my friends all the time. I was obsessed with hanging out with my friends. I never wanted to be home. I would be out on the street playing hockey. I would be riding my bike everywhere. So it's like kind of like, blend your two stories and that's kind of my story. So very similar. But then I think I started to go. Even at a young age, I started to go into, like, dissociation, but not so much like the freeze style of dissociation. It was more like the flight dissociation. So it was like becoming so busy and always doing and never being able to be with myself. I think I had a lot of big emotions as a child and I just started to get really busy, so I didn't have to feel and then move that into getting older. And I started to become an overachiever and a perfectionist. And, you know, I brought all of that flight energy into my. My business. I think I started being an entrepreneur when I was like 24, something like that. So I just basically put all that energy into that. And then fast forward another 10 years. I'm. Well, even more than that, probably 15 years, because I was about 38 when I started having a bad case of burnout. Although I did have other periods of burnout, but this one was the big one. And it's like, go figure, right? Spending your whole life in flight and not being able to rest and. And. But just put me into a depression, into a massive burnout that I've been coping with for the last few years. So, yeah, it always catches up to us, right? Yeah. We can't unfortunately escape our own body. Yeah, I think that's kind of the main pieces that I wanted to cover for that question. So.
• 35:11
  Speaker C: Wow, busyness. I love that you mentioned that, because I had. I hadn't really thought of that one, but I did. I did make Myself busy. I made my mind and my life busy, you know, constantly sort of doing and really not wanting to feel so much. Just like, let's just get on with things, you know?
• 35:30
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I relate to that because I think I went into this energy of like, not. Not letting myself be the victim.
• 35:39
  Speaker C: The victim.
• 35:39
  Speaker B: I went into like, you know, and then so the last few years of my life, I've had to go back into victim energy and like grieve and be through that. But I didn't want anybody to know that people got to me, that they hurt me. And I think that was. My heart was just balled up with all of this like, you world and, and I've had to really melt that. And it's been very, very hard and very painful, but liberating. Right? But going back to all that stuff and, and each layer that was put over my heart had to be lifted off layer by layer, right? And like, that's the pain of like doing inner child work is you have to be with all the tenderness and the grief. It takes a lot of presence. It takes a lot of money. I've probably spent 50 grand on therapy over the course of the last 15 years. Like not, I'm not even joking, like a lot of money. So it's, it's an investment in self, right, to do this healing work. That's for sure.
• 36:30
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's. It's interesting because as we were entering, we received messages around the topics that are coming up. And I saw this one and I remember my initial reaction was like, why are we doing this one? You know, like, this is just like such a downer, like, let's do a different one. Let's do something fun, you know. And as soon as I started feeling all of that, I was like, oh yeah, there's something here for me, you know, but it is that, like what you said. I love what you said, Matt, about not wanting to let people know they get to you or, you know, not wanting to let life know it got to you in some way and just kind of moving on or being self protective or what have you. I mean, in this conversation alone, I think I've said I'm okay like a few times to reassure everyone and to also, you know, so it's like I am okay, right? But and, and also there's something to this whole experience in this whole topic around me going back to that place again and like just not being okay, maybe, you know, and being like, okay, like, sure, you're not a victim or whatever, maybe you were. Can you go into that space and feel all of that? Right. So I really appreciate what you just said because that was it for me, was I'm not going to be a victim. I'm going to be a hustler. You know what I mean?
• 37:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:56
  Speaker C: So, yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker B: And I think part of the work, too is to. Is to remind yourself that it's okay to not be okay. Like I had when I had to go back and do this work. I'm actually reflecting on a year and a half ago, we did inner child work and I had a big cry on that. Like, I let. I was going through all the work that I've just completed that was at the very beginning of it and it was very heavy, very painful, and I was carrying a lot of unprocessed grief around, around that. And I had to go into. I am not okay. Right. I have some that I got to deal with and that it's okay. And I think, you know, working with therapists and coaches and these has really helped me, like, be held. I had to learn how to be held because I was like, ain't nobody holding me because I didn't feel held by the people that were supposed to hold me. So, like, who on earth can hold me if those people can't hold me? Right. It's.
• 38:44
  Speaker C: That's why we're all so tender and juicy now, you know, like, that's the byproduct.
• 38:48
  Speaker B: So.
• 38:49
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:51
  Speaker B: All right, listener, viewer, take a moment, feel, breathe. What's coming up for you. Go downwards. I know the mind wants to tell all these stories. Just go downwards and feel into your body. What sensations do you notice right now? Are there any emotions that this conversation is bringing up for you? And just let yourself be with those feelings. And if you're wanting to, I would say start some of this work. And we got some really great videos in our coaching collection that can help with this. I didn't take a chance to look, but I don't know if we did one on inner child work. I might have done one in that. In the collection on inner child work. But anyway, it would be a good place to start to do some of this work. I would say probably hiring a therapist or a coach or counselor or something would probably be your best bet in doing some of the deeper inner child work. But there's definitely resources in our coaching collection that's going to help you get the. The work started for sure. You can head over to gameandgoingdeeper.com for more info about our coaching collection. It also includes the. Well, it's got 45 premium plus development videos and healing your shame, building better relationships courses, which are our two six week courses in the coaching collection as well. So it's a great value for what you get. Okay, last question, Reno. How have you learned how to meet these needs for yourself as an adult? Or we could even say how are you learning? It doesn't have.
• 40:11
  Speaker C: Well, right, because it's an ongoing journey. I became my own best friend. Really. Like I am my bestie, you know, and there's a lot in there, like of course, you know, the, the simple answer is I, I learned, I am learning. I am growing to become my own best friend more and more and more. You know, so I'll sort of go down the list briefly. But like I learned to cultivate peace of mind and acceptance and stability and security, let's say through meeting what was within me and feeling it and moving through it, through spiritual practice, through connection, finding like minded and like hearted people or people I trust to be able to reveal my inner world too. But yeah, I think a big piece was, you know, someone said to me at one point you ET'd yourself. ET being an acronym for exposure therapy, which I, you know, I was at the time, I didn't really know much about. But I think what became a practice of mine was to hurl myself into the things that made me feel uncomfortable. You know, if I was scared of it, I moved in the direction of it. And that, you know, self expression, it's like I started wearing clothing that was a bit edgier and experimenting with, with fashion, with self expression, you know, finding spaces and opportunities to lean in just a little bit more. Maybe there was some sense that where I found myself was safe enough to show this much of myself or reveal this much of myself or explore this much of something. Right. And so I would, I would go into environments and I would kind of pay attention and observe, reveal a little bit, see what sort of response I got and then maybe expand further, express further companionship, intimacy, affection, communication, trust, shared reality. I mean, all these needs are met in so many ways. I started finding, you know, I guess in high school, this probably started more so, but I started connecting with people who I could share with. You know, they'd reveal a bit and then I would. And it was like, oh, okay, you know, this is a safe place. This is a place where we, you know, where we can express these parts of ourselves. I remember like being in high school and you know, having the opportunity to explore affection and touch in a consensual way with, you know, one of my close friends. And we kept that to ourselves because, you know, I think during those years, like, there's this fear that, you know, you'll be called gay or you'll be outed or something like that if you're affectionate with your male friend or something like that. So. But, you know, there were ways to meet those needs and confide in one another. And then, as time went on, I found community. You know, like, I look at. I look at where I am now. It's really remarkable to see how far I've come where I find myself. Like, I work with an erotic school. You know, I go to workshops. I've gone to retreats. I've hosted retreats. I volunteer. I'm involved. Not only am I involved and engaged in community, but I also curate and facilitate it. You know, I'm on this podcast with you two lovely souls. I mean, there's so much. The house I'm in for the last four years and the space that I've curated. Funny enough, I always think this place feels like some of the best places I've ever been. Like, my room is like Grandma and Bali, sort of in this beautiful. And Reno in this beautiful package. You know, it's like, that's what I do. I become what I love, and I. I bring in and create what I love around me, you know, and I'm increasingly clear about what that is and what that isn't, and willing to call it in, cultivate it or let it go, move away from it if it's not a fit. And I really advocate for and prioritize my needs and my experience more and more. I'm still working on that. I still sometimes find myself more concerned about how other people will feel or the experience they're having. And I prioritize that. But, yeah, I would say that's a lot of what I'm up to these days, and, you know, how I'm growing and evolving. And that little boy would be. I mean, I think he would just be like, wow, this is so awesome, what we got up to. Like, thank you. You know? Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker B: For real. You've come a long way.
• 45:06
  Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you.
• 45:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. I feel a sense of pride for you.
• 45:11
  Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you.
• 45:12
  Speaker A: Confidence.
• 45:13
  Speaker C: Yeah. What about you, Michael?
• 45:16
  Speaker A: All right, I'll wrap up my story about my inability to make friends and how people kind of pushed me into it. So the biggest shift for me in learning how to make friends was realizing that connection is not about forcing myself into spaces and Places that I just don't want to be. That's what was missing for me and that is what I needed to learn. I don't need to do it their way. Their way was not the only way. Their way is not the right way for me. And so what I've learned is what is my way? What is the Michael way? What is my ideal approach? So that is probably the biggest lesson I've learned and I still carry that with me very much to this day. It's giving myself permission to be me. I don't pressure myself into doing things I don't want to do. I don't bully myself into saying, oh, you should do this or you shouldn't do that. It's just like, this is what I feel like. I will check in with myself on literally anything. I'll get an invite to go somewhere, like, do I want to go to this? And if it's a no, it's a no. And I'm just like, no, it's a no. I don't want to. Maybe tomorrow it's a yes, but today it's no. So that's been my biggest lesson, is really learning to align who I am with my actions and chart my own path. Because for me, like for a lot of people, the path well traveled is the one that everyone else does. Good for you. That must be really nice for you. That's just not my reality, unfortunately. My reality is my own path. So learning what that path is and then really having the confidence and the courage to do it that way while still being very compassionate with myself and not bullying myself and not pressuring because I still get that pressure like, oh, I should do this and oh, I should do that. So I would say that re parenting for me is more on that self compassion side and understanding side. And just while still though make this point, challenging myself to get out of my comfort zone, I still had to go out and make friends. I did want to make friends. I didn't want that. So I want to know that I didn't stay in my coping mechanism. Right. I did eventually learn how to do that, but I just did it in my own way with my own people. And so it's really that balance of challenging myself. I do challenge myself. I put myself out there. I take risks. I do like a little bit of tough love. But to me, tough love is not mean. It's very kind and loving and understanding. So that's my personal big takeaway.
• 47:19
  Speaker B: I love it. Their way is not my way.
• 47:21
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 47:22
  Speaker B: And that can be for Us as gay men, whether you're neurodivergent, whatever. Like, I love it so much. And that's kind of how I define authenticity. It's like, oh no, everyone's gonna go right. I'm not vibing with right. I'm gonna go left. Like, you know, and it's that it takes a lot of courage to do that. So I also feel a sense of pride for you too.
• 47:39
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:40
  Speaker B: I would say asking for my needs to be met is extremely vulnerable. I don't do well with letting people meet my needs. And I think that is my work is to let people be there for me, let people support me. And I think part of it is like learning how to make need requests, sharing that I feel vulnerable, especially in my romantic relationships. This is probably again, it leans into. I've been trying to heal a disorganized attachment for the last 10 years and I've come so far and I'm like, almost there. But there's that still that part in me that's like, it's not safe. People are not safe. It's like it's almost ingrained in me, like, people are not trustworthy. And I think I'm still, you know, moving through some of that sort of stuff is to let go of that. And then I would say for me, I didn't really develop either of the two, the self protection or the self compassion. I didn't have those. Self protection now has been fully. I'm in it like I'm in my masculine around that. Like I'm very, very protective of my time, my, my energy. I have strong boundaries. Like that is now fully activated. It took me a long time. The self compassion piece, on the other hand, is what I'm still working on. It's very hard for me not to be hard on myself and it's very hard for me to not put pressure on myself. Right. To be perfect, these sorts of things. So I think that that's been a big piece of my work. And then the last thing I'll say is like learning what needs are relational and what needs are personal. A lot of my work has been learning how to let people in to support me. Like, I'm very good at meeting my own needs and almost too good at it. I've overdeveloped that as a skill and I've had to like move away from the overdevelopment of that. And so my work is learning how to be open to people meeting my needs. So that's again, I'm still in this. I'm still learning this as a skill. I think it'll really solidify in my next relationship. I know the next relationship I attract will be a secure relationship because I'm not going to settle for anything less. I know what I need now. So in that relationship, there's going to be a. I'm going to need a partner who can hold me accountable and, like, say, okay, like, let me be there for you. Let me help you, like, those sorts of things. Because I'm just. I'm very independent and I don't want to lose my independence, that's for sure. I wanted to have a balance between independence and I call it, like, interdependence. Right. I'm not codependent. I'm not too independent, but I have this nice ability to be able to receive support and love and also give support and love without it becoming. Without merging or becoming enmeshed with somebody. I think that's part of the work that I'm going to be embarking on in my next relationship. So stay tuned.
• 50:15
  Speaker C: I'm excited for you. I am. I'm excited for you. I look forward to the day when you. Yeah. You find that, like. Or connect with or meet that, like. Right. I don't know that. Right. Fit. You know, and also, I think it's so beautiful to see that you have cultivated that in yourself beforehand. You know that, like, you are becoming your own. Right. Fit first.
• 50:40
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I feel the energetics of my partner, and I think I've really always have to a certain degree, but he's felt very far, and I feel him closer. It's interesting.
• 50:50
  Speaker C: Wow.
• 50:51
  Speaker B: He's getting closer. He's coming. So, like, I don't know, like, I can't think of timelines. I'm not. I can't grab onto that sort of stuff. But I. If I were to guess, I'd say like a year, year and a half, like, within that time frame, like, I'll probably end up finding a partnership and be in a relationship, and that'll be, like, the guy I'm with for the remainder of my time. That's kind of. That's just what I'm intuiting. But we'll see.
• 51:12
  Speaker A: What I loved about listening to you guys, Matt and Reno, and what I want, maybe the audience, if they didn't see it either, or listen to this either, notice how the needs that went unmet in our childhood, that may have been something sad or frustrating or disappointing, how all three of us have turned that into our superpower, into something that is beautiful and wonderful. And alive. And we still have wonderful, amazing relationships with our parents. Okay. So whatever needs went unmet for you, there is a path through that forward that ends up with you being stronger, more brilliant, more authentic and more confident.
• 51:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. And I also want to say too, that it doesn't just like doing inner child work doesn't just heal the relationship with the parents. Like, for me, I had to sit down with my parents, I had to have conversations. I had to express to them my grief and my hurt. I've had to put in that work too. I think that's a big piece of it. But, yeah, the healing really happens. It's an inside job in respect to doing inner child work. It's very important work. So, yeah, you can go back and watch the episode from a year and a half ago, inner child work. And then this one would be great to give you insight into doing inner child work for yourself.
• 52:15
  Speaker C: The cave we fear to enter holds the treasure that we seek.
• 52:22
  Speaker B: Amen.
• 52:23
  Speaker C: Thank you.
• 52:24
  Speaker B: Well, yeah, thank you guys. I. I appreciate your tenderness and just showing up and sharing and like, like every time we do these and we go into these tender places, it's just, it gives me. I feel closer to you and I feel like I understand why you are who you are more clearly. You know, it's really cool. So. And for the listener, viewer, thanks for coming on this journey with us. And if you took the time to be with yourself too, kudos to you because it's not easy to like pause the video and check in with your own stuff. So keep going with that. Go on your own journey and discover. And just a reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes, or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube and show your support that way. And you can also subscribe to early access option on Apple Podcasts where you can listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. And all your support does help us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance for that. And come hit us up at one of our connection or sharing circles. They have one a week. Michael and I host them when Reno and Ellery support us with the Connect with the sharing circles as well too. So you can come hang out with all, all four of us. And for anything GMB, you can go to gaimansbrotherhood.com thank you everybody much.