Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Summer Break: Diversity in the Boardgame Industry

Transcript

Summer Break: Diversity in the Boardgame Industry · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey Tolerators, It's me Natalie with your before show updates
0:06
Speaker 1: on all things Team Tolerator. So we are sitting on
0:11
Speaker 1: the January, February March side of life, and what does
0:16
Speaker 1: that look like? Well, it looks like The Misogyny Meltdown
0:20
Speaker 1: over on Patreon is well underway. That is a new
0:24
Speaker 1: series and show that I am producing for Patreon members
0:28
Speaker 1: only because there is a lot of scripting and a
0:33
Speaker 1: lot of vulnerability going on. I've already segen a song,
0:37
Speaker 1: I've already produced to skit, I'm already writing comedy. So
0:42
Speaker 1: go take a chance on the Misogyny Meltdown in the
0:45
Speaker 1: way that to all the men I've tolerated before, is
0:47
Speaker 1: expanding and evolving with the link in the show notes.
0:52
Speaker 1: For January, we celebrated the Misogynist of the Year Awards ceremony.
0:57
Speaker 1: For February we are focusing on the concept of love
1:02
Speaker 1: and self love being part of the resistance. And in March,
1:06
Speaker 1: why yes, We're still going to do seasonal things with
1:10
Speaker 1: celebrating International Women's Month, and all of that will be
1:14
Speaker 1: wrapped up into our new variety show, Misogyny Meltdown. I
1:18
Speaker 1: cannot wait for you to check it. Out, Hey tolerators,
1:43
Speaker 1: listens to all the men I've tolerated before with Namiley Katona,
1:47
Speaker 1: your weekly look at everyday misogyny. Today, my special guest
1:51
Speaker 1: is Purvin for four Why Games. We were a little
1:55
Speaker 1: bit of a missed connection because while I was at
1:57
Speaker 1: gen Con, I saw a flyer for the game allow
2:00
Speaker 1: me to man explain, and told my family we should
2:03
Speaker 1: be on the lookout for it. There's so much that
2:06
Speaker 1: goes on at gen Con and so much to look
2:07
Speaker 1: at that it wasn't until TikTok brought me to Curvin's
2:11
Speaker 1: videos that we actually got to connect. So welcome to
2:14
Speaker 1: the team, Curvin, and thanks for being here to talk
2:16
Speaker 1: about working towards diversity and game creation.
2:19
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:21
Speaker 3: I love being a borgan of designer and I love
2:23
Speaker 3: sharing my story, so this will be awesome.
2:25
Speaker 1: I love it. I desperately want more friends in the
2:29
Speaker 1: gaming community in general, especially when those friends like go
2:33
Speaker 1: to gen Con because I go every year, and every
2:36
Speaker 1: year I just end up walking around by myself. Oh,
2:40
Speaker 1: I know my family, Like my family goes for just
2:45
Speaker 1: like the shopping and the vibe, and I'm like, what
2:47
Speaker 1: if we played a game, what if we literally did
2:50
Speaker 1: any of the things that this convention has going on.
2:54
Speaker 1: What if I meet Brendan Lee Mulligan, Like, come on, everybody,
2:57
Speaker 1: I will.
2:58
Speaker 3: Say though, Like, so I was at gen Con, like
3:01
Speaker 3: I flew in from Houston for a day and a
3:03
Speaker 3: half and then I left. And the reason why I
3:07
Speaker 3: used gen Con for a day and a half is
3:09
Speaker 3: because one of my favorite publishers that I met on
3:11
Speaker 3: TikTok Wonderbo Games.
3:13
Speaker 2: They're based out of Germany.
3:15
Speaker 3: They're based out of Germany, and I don't know if
3:17
Speaker 3: I'll ever go to group for board game stuff, and
3:19
Speaker 3: Germany's a long way from America. And they decided last minute,
3:22
Speaker 3: like a week before gen Con, that they were going
3:25
Speaker 3: to do it. And so I called her up and
3:28
Speaker 3: I said, hey, I don't fomo, and I'm a gay
3:31
Speaker 3: board gamer. Like you think I would just blose fomo,
3:34
Speaker 3: but I don't. And I said, you're gonna make me
3:36
Speaker 3: fomo meeting you. And then she said, well, I kind
3:41
Speaker 3: of like I'm doing this event. I have a free badge.
3:44
Speaker 3: It's yours, nose strings attached. You have four hours to
3:46
Speaker 3: tell me if that you want it or not. And
3:48
Speaker 3: I said okay. So I looked at playing tickets. I
3:52
Speaker 3: looked at hotels. Initially, when I looked at plane tickets,
3:55
Speaker 3: it was like eight hundred bucks from Houston.
3:57
Speaker 2: It was ridiculous.
3:59
Speaker 3: And then when she messaged me about the fruit ticket,
4:03
Speaker 3: I looked it went down to three point fifty.
4:05
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
4:07
Speaker 3: So and Direct Direct like direct. So I got a hotel.
4:14
Speaker 3: I get a hotel for a night, two nights, I think,
4:17
Speaker 3: and a gen car badge had a plane ticket, all
4:21
Speaker 3: for what I would have paid if I just bought
4:23
Speaker 3: the plane ticket six months ahead of time.
4:25
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I ply out to LA on Sunday,
4:28
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be paying off that ticket for
4:30
Speaker 1: a year. But it's because I do get FOMO. And
4:33
Speaker 1: a bunch of my virtual book club friends were getting
4:35
Speaker 1: together and I was like me too, and they're like,
4:38
Speaker 1: you live in Ohio and I'm like, uh huh, me too.
4:42
Speaker 3: My online board gaming group we play on tabletop simulator
4:46
Speaker 3: where people can like put their their games so people
4:48
Speaker 3: can play test. We play every Monday, and then we
4:51
Speaker 3: played for a year and they said we should all
4:52
Speaker 3: get together.
4:53
Speaker 2: And they're in New Jersey, Maryland.
4:56
Speaker 3: And upstate New York and I'm in Texas and I
4:59
Speaker 3: was like, oh, okay, cool, and then they picked Virginia,
5:03
Speaker 3: so they literally drove like VIRGINI they're picking up in Virginia.
5:07
Speaker 3: And we played board games for two and a half
5:10
Speaker 3: days straight, me and another guy concidentally another queer person color.
5:15
Speaker 3: We just cooked the entire time, had people to eat it,
5:17
Speaker 3: and did do dishes, and played board games.
5:20
Speaker 2: That was the dream.
5:21
Speaker 1: I have this working theory that it is virtual friends
5:25
Speaker 1: that are the most generous with their heart and time
5:28
Speaker 1: with you, because your other friends are just like always
5:31
Speaker 1: looking at you and they're like, no, we get it.
5:33
Speaker 1: We do trivia on Wednesdays, everything's fine. But your virtual
5:37
Speaker 1: friends were like, I'm so excited to be in a
5:39
Speaker 1: room with you.
5:42
Speaker 3: That literally you just described my gen Con experience. So like,
5:45
Speaker 3: I'm not a typical board game TikTok content creator.
5:47
Speaker 2: I don't do exclusively how to videos.
5:50
Speaker 3: I don't talk about I don't talk about near's like
5:53
Speaker 3: the newest hotness board game. I don't exclusively talk about
5:56
Speaker 3: the same game repeatedly. I talked about my experiences. I
5:59
Speaker 3: talk both good and bad in the industry. I talked
6:01
Speaker 3: about my journey, and so when I went to gen Con,
6:04
Speaker 3: I fully expected people to be like, oh, hi, Curve
6:06
Speaker 3: and nice to meet you.
6:07
Speaker 2: I didn't expect them to be genuinely.
6:09
Speaker 3: Excited to It was my first con since I joined
6:12
Speaker 3: TikTok and it was like a year and a half
6:14
Speaker 3: and the entire time everyone was so nice. Like I
6:18
Speaker 3: got to the thing, it's like the exposure room, like
6:22
Speaker 3: the new exposure for any games. And I got there
6:25
Speaker 3: and then like four people texted other people said Curvens here,
6:29
Speaker 3: get here now.
6:29
Speaker 2: I don't know where he's going to be next, and.
6:31
Speaker 3: So people like ran the convention hall to like hug
6:33
Speaker 3: me and say hello. I was like, straight people are
6:36
Speaker 3: the nicest.
6:38
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's not get insane. Straight people in Indiana
6:44
Speaker 1: not the nicest.
6:46
Speaker 2: None of them are from Indiana. To be fair, though,
6:48
Speaker 2: fare you go. No.
6:50
Speaker 1: I brought friendship bracelets to gen Con this year because
6:53
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with the Eras tour and I have
6:56
Speaker 1: so many beads in my house that now wherever I go,
6:59
Speaker 1: I made bracelets. It's all I do now, and people
7:04
Speaker 1: like my dad takes us every year and he's used
7:08
Speaker 1: to like me just doing my own thing, but this year,
7:11
Speaker 1: because my uncle was also there, I ended up like
7:14
Speaker 1: orbiting them more. And he was just blown away that
7:17
Speaker 1: I would just walk up to someone and be like,
7:19
Speaker 1: here's a trinket, and then we would have like a
7:22
Speaker 1: thirty minute in depth conversation about our hopes and dreams
7:25
Speaker 1: and favorite games and what my body felt like when
7:29
Speaker 1: I got to hug Kyle Shier and if I thought
7:32
Speaker 1: Kyle Shier was single and needed a husband, and I'm like,
7:35
Speaker 1: maybe that's amazing. I hope so. But yeah, so let's
7:40
Speaker 1: start with your journey first, Like, tell me your background
7:43
Speaker 1: and the story in all of it, all of it.
7:47
Speaker 2: Okay, So, born and raised in Houston, Texas.
7:50
Speaker 3: I went to school in Nebraska and lived there for
7:52
Speaker 3: ten years in Omaha, moved back to Houston, got into
7:56
Speaker 3: board games, and then because of work, board gaming can
7:59
Speaker 3: kind of consume your life. I had to give it
8:02
Speaker 3: up for a few years and then decided to bring
8:04
Speaker 3: it to come back to it. And then the pandemic
8:07
Speaker 3: hit and so I started to play a little bit virtually.
8:12
Speaker 3: And then I woke in the middle of the night,
8:14
Speaker 3: which I never do because I'm a really heavy sleeper,
8:16
Speaker 3: and wanted to buy a Man's Plaining party game and
8:19
Speaker 3: I would have paid whatever and not exaggerating. There were
8:24
Speaker 3: two or three man's plaining games that were out there,
8:27
Speaker 3: but they played like trivia games.
8:29
Speaker 2: Oh exactly. Oh.
8:33
Speaker 3: It was just like I don't It wasn't funny, it
8:36
Speaker 3: wasn't interesting, it wasn't like anything worthwhile. And I like
8:41
Speaker 3: sent it to my couple of sample the cards to
8:43
Speaker 3: my friends and I was like, can you make this
8:45
Speaker 3: make sense to me? And they're like, provence because you're
8:48
Speaker 3: not the target demographic of that. I was like, did
8:50
Speaker 3: white men make a game for other white men that
8:53
Speaker 3: they think was funny?
8:54
Speaker 4: And they said, oh yeah, And I was like you're like, oh,
8:58
Speaker 4: I remember probably yeah, yeah, yeah, but it didn't occur
9:02
Speaker 4: to me because you know, brand need the boguing stuff, right.
9:04
Speaker 2: And then I complained about it to everyone in my
9:06
Speaker 2: life for three and a half months.
9:08
Speaker 3: And then we have a local grocery store called AGB
9:11
Speaker 3: which is one is like the Pride and Joys in Texas,
9:13
Speaker 3: and I was in the grocery. I was in like
9:14
Speaker 3: the PROTI style ironically by bananas, and I was like,
9:18
Speaker 3: I'm so mad, and my friend's like, well, what would
9:20
Speaker 3: your game look like? And we designed eighty five percent
9:24
Speaker 3: of it, like all the openings of the game and
9:27
Speaker 3: the general mechanics of the game. We designed in the
9:30
Speaker 3: aisle of a grocery store and it took me an
9:32
Speaker 3: hour and a half to leave the grocers. I just
9:34
Speaker 3: laugh at I was just laughing so hard in the
9:36
Speaker 3: banana as likes the bananas.
9:39
Speaker 2: And then this was work. Because the pandemic, I started
9:42
Speaker 2: to work from home. We had to go to the office.
9:44
Speaker 3: My coworkers for mostly middle aged black women, were like,
9:47
Speaker 3: what are you doing? And I said, Oh, there's this game,
9:49
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, I want to play it. So
9:51
Speaker 3: I made a prototype and then they played it and
9:54
Speaker 3: they loved it, and they're like, well.
9:56
Speaker 2: When can we buy it? And I was like, I
9:57
Speaker 2: oh know.
9:58
Speaker 3: So I did a bunch of research, like super hardcore.
10:02
Speaker 3: I read every blog, listened to like a bunch of podcasts,
10:07
Speaker 3: watched all of YouTube everything, and then I was like,
10:10
Speaker 3: I guess I can do this.
10:11
Speaker 2: Sure, why not?
10:12
Speaker 3: And so I like jumped head first and as a joke,
10:17
Speaker 3: I said, because during the pandemic, I was like, I
10:19
Speaker 3: guess I'll join in TikTok.
10:20
Speaker 2: I was like, there's no way.
10:21
Speaker 3: I don't use social media in my real life like
10:23
Speaker 3: at all, and so like that was just a it
10:27
Speaker 3: was it literally was a joke, and then it's like
10:31
Speaker 3: it changed my life.
10:32
Speaker 2: It literally has changed my life.
10:34
Speaker 3: I i joined TikTok, I realized that maybe you don't
10:38
Speaker 3: have to do dances, and maybe I can just like
10:42
Speaker 3: be grumpy and do tiktoks and see what happens. My
10:45
Speaker 3: background's in film, and so if you've done film, you've
10:48
Speaker 3: done editing, and if your degrees in film and editing,
10:51
Speaker 3: you know how OCD you can get even if you
10:53
Speaker 3: don't have OCD, and TikTok is not.
10:56
Speaker 2: It wasn't a platform.
10:57
Speaker 3: I mean still isn't a platform where as to Super
11:00
Speaker 3: Polish and Super and I just wanted to get my
11:03
Speaker 3: information out there and kind of see what happens. So
11:06
Speaker 3: I literally would take a nap, wake up, and the
11:08
Speaker 3: record tiktoks. That way, I would worry about edits. I
11:11
Speaker 3: don't care how I looked. And I came across some
11:16
Speaker 3: pretty influential people in the industry who found me four
11:19
Speaker 3: game TikTok maybe had eight people when I first started.
11:23
Speaker 3: One was talking about borgame design. There was like one
11:25
Speaker 3: other Bipop person and I said, sure, let's go. And
11:30
Speaker 3: then I've met people who've completely changed the directory of
11:35
Speaker 3: I guess I'll make a man playing game too. I
11:37
Speaker 3: could be a content creator. I could be a publisher.
11:40
Speaker 3: I could make the industry easier for people who look
11:43
Speaker 3: more like me, who wanted to play games that I
11:45
Speaker 3: want to play.
11:47
Speaker 2: And I've I've been I'm going to be writing this
11:51
Speaker 2: for as long as I can.
11:52
Speaker 1: I love it when this happens because it happens in
11:55
Speaker 1: my life too, where I will just say a sentence
11:59
Speaker 1: like there should be a game about mansplaining, and then
12:02
Speaker 1: someone will go, it's happened on the show before, where
12:05
Speaker 1: someone will go, stop, we're going to talk about that
12:07
Speaker 1: after we're done recording, because that's an idea, and we
12:10
Speaker 1: don't just give ideas away at the supermarket or whatever,
12:13
Speaker 1: but making connections with the people who believe in you
12:17
Speaker 1: and support your like far fetched statement and an idea,
12:23
Speaker 1: and then you take it and you create a board
12:25
Speaker 1: game or a game that when I bought Queen by Midnight,
12:31
Speaker 1: my dad was surprised because it was an expensive game,
12:34
Speaker 1: and I said, but it's the only game that is
12:38
Speaker 1: that I know of currently that is all female driven,
12:43
Speaker 1: and each one of those women is from a different background,
12:46
Speaker 1: and I was like, and that's why I hugged Kyle
12:49
Speaker 1: Schier when I got to like buy it, and I
12:51
Speaker 1: was like, this is so important, This is so important
12:54
Speaker 1: to me. I don't get to always feel like I
12:57
Speaker 1: belong playing the board game that we're playing at gen
13:00
Speaker 1: Con and you're just doing really important work. And to
13:06
Speaker 1: think of how many I'm in love with TikTok. I
13:09
Speaker 1: joke about it all the time, Like, you know, I'm
13:10
Speaker 1: always on TikTok, but I have made such good friends
13:15
Speaker 1: through just commenting on people's videos, just being like, hey,
13:18
Speaker 1: this is great, Hey I love this, and then just
13:22
Speaker 1: commenting becomes DMS and I do it all the time
13:25
Speaker 1: on Instagram too. TikTok and social media is a way
13:29
Speaker 1: that I feel like, even though they keep throwing barriers up,
13:34
Speaker 1: we keep finding fun and interesting ways to like circumvent
13:37
Speaker 1: the barrier and be like, no, women's voices matter, queer
13:41
Speaker 1: voices matter, people of colors voices matter, and we're here
13:46
Speaker 1: and we're not going away even if the algorithm says
13:48
Speaker 1: we should.
13:50
Speaker 3: It's funny so that the because we're TikTok, I mean,
13:54
Speaker 3: it's it's so relatively small as far as you shou
13:57
Speaker 3: just go.
13:57
Speaker 2: And I was talking to a friend at and he.
14:00
Speaker 3: Said, Kurvin, do you ever feel like you're just making
14:03
Speaker 3: videos for the other borging TikTok contact creators?
14:06
Speaker 2: And I said, all the time, all the time.
14:09
Speaker 1: I am probably because you know, there's always there's that
14:14
Speaker 1: sound that goes around on TikTok who's like, who even
14:16
Speaker 1: watches your TikTok? And it's like I do when I
14:19
Speaker 1: feel bad about myself, I just go through my TikTok
14:21
Speaker 1: feed and go, that's right, I am funny and I
14:25
Speaker 1: just put it away. And it's so funny because it
14:30
Speaker 1: was something that I too. When we started this podcast,
14:33
Speaker 1: I had a co host for the entire first season
14:37
Speaker 1: and she ended up stepping down and she's like, TikTok
14:41
Speaker 1: might be a great way to get the podcast out there.
14:44
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't want to be on
14:45
Speaker 1: TikTok with the teenagers doing weird dances. I'm thirty two.
14:51
Speaker 1: I was thirty two with the pandemics. I was like,
14:55
Speaker 1: they're gonna laugh at me, and they're gonna tell me
14:57
Speaker 1: that I shouldn't have adult act me anymore, and I'm
14:59
Speaker 1: gonna cry.
15:01
Speaker 2: It was more of just like I just you never
15:04
Speaker 2: really know.
15:05
Speaker 3: And then the more research I did, weirdly enough made
15:09
Speaker 3: me feel comfortable, like that, like the algorithm is this
15:11
Speaker 3: crazy thing right that no one fully knows her theories.
15:15
Speaker 3: There's like competitive algorithms and blah blah blah blah blah.
15:18
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, I took comfort
15:20
Speaker 3: in knowing that TikTok wants your videos to be seen.
15:25
Speaker 3: TikTok wants to show your videos to as many people
15:28
Speaker 3: who they think might like your videos and build this community.
15:33
Speaker 3: And if you were to tell me that I were,
15:35
Speaker 3: I would build a community of like allies on an
15:41
Speaker 3: app where I just talked about my feelings in a
15:44
Speaker 3: car for thirty seconds at a time. It's wild to
15:48
Speaker 3: me and the people in the boarding ministry fomo not
15:51
Speaker 3: being on TikTok, but they don't want to do the
15:53
Speaker 3: work it takes to do well on TikTok. I hear
15:56
Speaker 3: all the I've heard multiple times to my I've heard
15:58
Speaker 3: multiple times to my face that well, Kirby's just talking
16:02
Speaker 3: about his feelings in his car. If he can do it,
16:04
Speaker 3: I can do it. I'm like, then do it, then
16:05
Speaker 3: do it. It's like you can't tell me if it's
16:08
Speaker 3: that easy, but they discount my intention. You can't, I
16:12
Speaker 3: say all the time, and they're like, Kurban shouldn't say it,
16:14
Speaker 3: But I think it's true. I don't have the privilege
16:18
Speaker 3: of like just opening up an app, of like starting
16:22
Speaker 3: recording talking about diversity the way like a straight ally does,
16:26
Speaker 3: like that they're allowed to make mistakes, they're allowed to misspeak,
16:31
Speaker 3: and like, well, Curvey put that pressure on yourself, and
16:32
Speaker 3: I said no, like, my platform is very much my
16:35
Speaker 3: experiences because I don't want to have to deal with
16:38
Speaker 3: all the bs that all my friends and like biplocking
16:41
Speaker 3: through friends have in other spaces where they're just like
16:43
Speaker 3: screaming at people who are trolling them, and I get
16:47
Speaker 3: anxious enough.
16:48
Speaker 2: I'm hard enough with myself. I don't want I don't
16:51
Speaker 2: need other people.
16:52
Speaker 3: And there's one person I've ever blocked, and before I
16:56
Speaker 3: blocked him, he made a response saying that I saying,
17:01
Speaker 3: why are you making a game that's not that's not
17:03
Speaker 3: for me? And he's like it says het white male,
17:06
Speaker 3: And I had six content creators who were all says
17:10
Speaker 3: het white males respond to that comment and say, just
17:13
Speaker 3: because something is made for other people does not mean
17:15
Speaker 3: it's not made for you. It just means they're being included.
17:18
Speaker 3: You're more than welcome to play it, but it just
17:22
Speaker 3: might mean something and give a different experience to somebody else.
17:25
Speaker 3: And I was like, that was one of the first
17:26
Speaker 3: times I was like, I'm making a difference. There's quality
17:30
Speaker 3: people on sicket.
17:31
Speaker 2: What is happening? It was just it was the coolest
17:34
Speaker 2: experiences I've ever had.
17:35
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can really just leave those comments alone and
17:38
Speaker 1: be like someone will take you to task, because I've
17:41
Speaker 1: been that person on someone else's kiktok where I'm like, hey, hello,
17:45
Speaker 1: ignorant fuck you found us, you found the people who
17:49
Speaker 1: are just trying to be chill with one another and
17:51
Speaker 1: like love. But now I'm gonna have to embarrass you.
17:55
Speaker 1: So I hope you feel big. It amazes me that.
18:00
Speaker 1: And so I was raised by a sis head white
18:05
Speaker 1: man and one year we went to gen Con and
18:09
Speaker 1: there were all of these flyers up about cosplay doesn't
18:13
Speaker 1: mean consent yes, And then in the gen Con program
18:18
Speaker 1: there was an article about highlighting people of color cosplaying
18:25
Speaker 1: and my dad was like, I don't get it, and
18:27
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, tell me, come on He's like,
18:31
Speaker 1: number one, gen CON's the safest thing I've ever taken
18:34
Speaker 1: you to, So why do we have to have flyers
18:36
Speaker 1: reminding people that it's safe to cosplay? And I was like, well,
18:39
Speaker 1: number one, gen Con is a place where I've technically
18:43
Speaker 1: always been safe, but it is not the safest place
18:46
Speaker 1: I can go. I going. You're not with me all
18:48
Speaker 1: of the time I go. I got out of the
18:51
Speaker 1: car this past year at gen Con and I was
18:53
Speaker 1: out of my dad's car for thirty seconds walking towards
18:57
Speaker 1: the convention center. It was insight and I got cat
19:00
Speaker 1: called twice. I have watched women lose their patience because
19:05
Speaker 1: guys are touching them weird for photo ops or they
19:08
Speaker 1: won't leave them alone, and they're like, I have a ticket,
19:11
Speaker 1: I have to get somewhere, And people are getting mad
19:13
Speaker 1: because he got to take a photo but I didn't
19:15
Speaker 1: get to take a photo. And I've stepped in and said,
19:18
Speaker 1: are you paying her? Is she paid by gen Con?
19:21
Speaker 1: You you working for gen Con? No, she's not actually
19:23
Speaker 1: a part of your experience. You need to go, You
19:26
Speaker 1: need to move on. And my dad's like, well I've
19:29
Speaker 1: never seen it, and I go because you don't have
19:32
Speaker 1: to see it. That's the point. It's like, why aren't
19:36
Speaker 1: you making a game for me? And it's like, because
19:38
Speaker 1: there are already twenty two hundred games for you that
19:43
Speaker 1: come out every year, that come out every year, and
19:47
Speaker 1: we're not excluding you. We're just making something different. And
19:53
Speaker 1: I know that you've talked about on TikTok that you
19:56
Speaker 1: have a very You're new to tt RPGs and RPGs, right, Yes.
20:03
Speaker 1: I have been playing tt RPGs until since I was
20:07
Speaker 1: eight years old. And before I was playing them, I
20:11
Speaker 1: was sitting at my dad's kitchen table watching siss head
20:14
Speaker 1: straight youth play tt RPGs. I've seen everything under the
20:21
Speaker 1: sun when it comes to the sis white male experience
20:24
Speaker 1: of D and D. And this year my uncle called
20:28
Speaker 1: it out before I could. They were sitting and they
20:32
Speaker 1: were watching me play a game, and afterwards, my uncle went,
20:35
Speaker 1: you didn't win, and I was like, no, because we
20:38
Speaker 1: were playing Queen Bye Midnight. He goes, I really thought
20:40
Speaker 1: you were winning because the guy across from you was
20:44
Speaker 1: really mad at you for a lot of your moves.
20:47
Speaker 1: And I'm like, they're always mad. They're just always mad
20:51
Speaker 1: at me if I've outsmarted them, if I understood the
20:54
Speaker 1: rules better if my cards lined up more, if I,
20:59
Speaker 1: you know, maxed out my character and they're more powerful
21:03
Speaker 1: than your character. I go, they're always mad at me?
21:05
Speaker 1: And he's like, I thought you were really playing it
21:07
Speaker 1: cool and you're really dealing with it nicely. I was like, well,
21:10
Speaker 1: that's because I don't perceive it anymore, because to perceive
21:13
Speaker 1: it is to give it attention. I did not even
21:16
Speaker 1: notice that he was grimacing and mumbling the entire tide.
21:21
Speaker 1: But it's it's the scarcity mindset, and it's you've never
21:25
Speaker 1: actually had to live in scarcity. This white men who
21:30
Speaker 1: want to enjoy gaming. But there are people who literally
21:34
Speaker 1: didn't have a superhero movie that related to them until
21:38
Speaker 1: Black Panther. And then you all want it to be like,
21:41
Speaker 1: why is Black Panther a big deal? And it's like,
21:44
Speaker 1: because it's a movement and a moment and it's a
21:46
Speaker 1: beautiful film, and it's the same in gaming.
21:49
Speaker 3: I did a costplay expansion of a lobby, and Dan's
21:53
Speaker 3: playing because the artist is like a minor costlay celebrity
21:57
Speaker 3: on Texas. She's I met her at a face painting
21:59
Speaker 3: and body painting competition that I used to run that's
22:03
Speaker 3: a completely different tangent. But so when I did research
22:07
Speaker 3: on it, it was mind boggling, how like racist and
22:11
Speaker 3: the setonistic cosplay is and like just because they costplace,
22:15
Speaker 3: they costplay someone who might like show a more revealing outfit,
22:20
Speaker 3: like men feel entitled to anything.
22:22
Speaker 2: I was just jet like it was, it was just
22:24
Speaker 2: it was.
22:25
Speaker 3: It was baffling to me, and that expansion in costplay
22:29
Speaker 3: circles when they play, it turns into the therapy session
22:34
Speaker 3: of like this happened to me? And then just like
22:38
Speaker 3: there's things like so in allow me to mansplay the
22:40
Speaker 3: game I designed, you started off describing something with an
22:44
Speaker 3: opening line of something that like a douchey mail mindset
22:48
Speaker 3: or like a dude, I'd say, right, And though when
22:52
Speaker 3: I wrote those lines they meant nothing to me, like
22:55
Speaker 3: if you learn to cover your scenes better, that meant
22:57
Speaker 3: that means nothing to me, like like, but when they
23:01
Speaker 3: met it to each other, it meant all like it
23:05
Speaker 3: evoked like anger and emotion and just like cervin no
23:09
Speaker 3: like you said it, but like as like a joke,
23:11
Speaker 3: but like it does get sad and it's part of
23:14
Speaker 3: the there's It made you realize how many experiences. I
23:17
Speaker 3: genuinely don't understand your experience, and as like a double minority,
23:22
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm just like, it's so hard just to deal
23:24
Speaker 3: with what I'm going through just having like capacity to
23:29
Speaker 3: just be open to and sympathize with. I don't understand
23:34
Speaker 3: your experience. I'm sorry that like what I wrote invoked
23:38
Speaker 3: that emotion for you, But like, let's talk about it.
23:41
Speaker 1: And I think that gaming opens up that It's a
23:44
Speaker 1: good I always use stand up comedy in my therapy
23:49
Speaker 1: sessions because it's like, I don't want to talk about
23:51
Speaker 1: when this happened to me, But what if we talked
23:54
Speaker 1: about when it happened to Taylor Tommelson And you'll be like, oh,
23:58
Speaker 1: and what did that make you remember? And now I've
24:00
Speaker 1: tricked myself into talking to you about it. It's a
24:04
Speaker 1: way to break down barriers and have a baseline of
24:07
Speaker 1: how we communicate to one another with one another. My
24:11
Speaker 1: DM a few months ago or a year ago, who knows,
24:15
Speaker 1: we've been playing this campaign for almost four years. She
24:19
Speaker 1: one time had our characters be faced with what she
24:23
Speaker 1: knew was like our nightmare, our greatest fear, and for
24:27
Speaker 1: my character, she's convinced that she killed her aunt. It
24:31
Speaker 1: was an accident, but she is convinced that that is
24:33
Speaker 1: what happened. And so she was like her aunt was
24:37
Speaker 1: just following her around just and like we're supposed to
24:40
Speaker 1: be trying to figure out stuff, and I'm distracted because
24:43
Speaker 1: my aunt is following me around talking to me. And
24:47
Speaker 1: my DM did after care after that, and she's like,
24:50
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it. Was it fine? Was
24:53
Speaker 1: it mean of me to do that? Like what's going on?
24:57
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I'm always up for the
24:59
Speaker 1: very human experience happening in D and D. I did
25:03
Speaker 1: yell at Abri and a gart I a guard one
25:06
Speaker 1: time on one of my tiktoks because Burrow's end when
25:10
Speaker 1: it's stoats playing D and D and they're just like
25:12
Speaker 1: little weasels. I'm like, not making bad things hit those stoats.
25:16
Speaker 1: They're so cute. And she tricked me and I yelled.
25:20
Speaker 1: But I'm always because I'm a storyteller, I'm like, I'm
25:24
Speaker 1: always up for whatever is going to make the story
25:26
Speaker 1: tell story be better. I'm a role play player. I
25:30
Speaker 1: also happen to be really good at battles, but I
25:32
Speaker 1: am I crave wanting to be a role play player.
25:37
Speaker 1: But I thought about that and I was like, Okay,
25:39
Speaker 1: but I am gonna have to talk to people about
25:42
Speaker 1: maybe not my dead ant bee plot, but there were
25:45
Speaker 1: other things like I had betrayed a lover, I had whatever,
25:50
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to sit
25:52
Speaker 1: in this. But I also think that again, now I'm rambling.
25:58
Speaker 1: You created a game that opens that doorway for people
26:02
Speaker 1: to share their experiences, and a lot of time we
26:05
Speaker 1: feel like we're isolated in those experiences, like well, I
26:09
Speaker 1: should have covered up my seams and maybe I wouldn't
26:12
Speaker 1: have gotten yelled at in the middle of Comic Con
26:15
Speaker 1: or whatever. But it's a it's a barrier to breed community,
26:21
Speaker 1: it's a barrier breaker to build community.
26:24
Speaker 3: One of the biggest criticisms I got about the game
26:28
Speaker 3: is what keep What was from women who said, like,
26:34
Speaker 3: what makes you as a man qualified to make a
26:37
Speaker 3: man's plaiting game? And my response, my initial response, which
26:42
Speaker 3: was a little starky, was why do you think you
26:44
Speaker 3: have like the market cornered on being spoken over or
26:47
Speaker 3: not being seen, or thinking that you're not intelligent or
26:50
Speaker 3: you don't know what you're doing. That is an experience
26:53
Speaker 3: that more than just women have where people have it,
26:56
Speaker 3: minorities have it, and I wanted one of the things
27:01
Speaker 3: I wanted to do with this game. Yes, it's very
27:03
Speaker 3: like it can be very real, but at the same time,
27:06
Speaker 3: man's plaining it's the thing that's gonna be around for
27:09
Speaker 3: a long time. And there's so many people. When you
27:12
Speaker 3: say it, people just roll their eyes. And if I
27:14
Speaker 3: can insert one funny, one memorable, one interesting man's plaining
27:19
Speaker 3: moments that like make you laugh, that it might make
27:22
Speaker 3: the next one more tolerable. And for me, that's worth
27:26
Speaker 3: all this the grief I've gotten for the game, because
27:28
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it's still something I.
27:31
Speaker 2: Love and I'm very proud of.
27:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. It's a great party game. I
27:36
Speaker 1: like getting a party game because we've all played like
27:39
Speaker 1: the Cards against Humanity and the Apples Tables or whatever,
27:42
Speaker 1: and they stop, like you're given a prompt, you answer
27:45
Speaker 1: that prompt with one thing and it stops. We all
27:48
Speaker 1: have a chuckle, we all move on. But with allowing
27:52
Speaker 1: the man's playing, it's more I mean, not conversation based
27:56
Speaker 1: because you're forced to like talk over your friends or
27:59
Speaker 1: whatever it is. It's more like acting and it's more
28:02
Speaker 1: like role playing. And it does push it further. It
28:06
Speaker 1: pushes it pushes it further than the initial bit, and
28:10
Speaker 1: that's why I like it.
28:11
Speaker 3: It's it also it shares a lot about how your
28:19
Speaker 3: brain works and how you communicate. Like I've said, I
28:23
Speaker 3: made this stock multiple times where you had to man'splain
28:27
Speaker 3: how an automatic door works. And there were four or
28:30
Speaker 3: five times a guy literally said, you walk up to
28:34
Speaker 3: it and it moves, and we're like, to me, please
28:37
Speaker 3: have more, and they said no, like that's as clear
28:40
Speaker 3: as day. And then we just like sat there in awkwardness.
28:43
Speaker 3: And then they're like, Curvin, maybe you should like put
28:46
Speaker 3: like a time limit, And I said, I purposely didn't
28:48
Speaker 3: do a time limit because A that makes people anxious,
28:52
Speaker 3: but B it forces people to listen, both the man's
28:56
Speaker 3: plainer and the person receiving it, because it gives people
28:59
Speaker 3: up to to actually listen because they didn't really know
29:02
Speaker 3: what was happening. And of course when women we would
29:04
Speaker 3: have to explain that, they'd say everything from like you're
29:07
Speaker 3: at the grocery store, you have a cart, and you
29:09
Speaker 3: walk in the building and then this happens. They talk
29:11
Speaker 3: about sensors, they talk about motion sensors. And my favorite
29:14
Speaker 3: was when you were a kid and you pretend to
29:17
Speaker 3: use the force at the grocery store. It's still my
29:21
Speaker 3: favorite explanation of anything I've written.
29:23
Speaker 1: That's my favorite one because it's so true. I so
29:28
Speaker 1: not only being an intersectional feminist woman who runs an
29:32
Speaker 1: intersectional feminist podcast, but I am also a late in
29:37
Speaker 1: life late blossoming queer woman, I guess we would call it.
29:41
Speaker 1: And I have ADHD all on top of it. And
29:44
Speaker 1: there are so many times where the smallest thing has
29:48
Speaker 1: made my ADHD shut down whatever you're saying and focus
29:52
Speaker 1: on whatever new stimulant happened. And I've had to ask
29:56
Speaker 1: people like, can you elaborate? Can you explain yourself? Again?
30:01
Speaker 1: I didn't catch part of that. I think part of
30:03
Speaker 1: my ADHD is an audio processing issue, and the and
30:09
Speaker 1: the amount of times that people who know me, people
30:11
Speaker 1: who don't know me, people who care about me, have gone, no,
30:15
Speaker 1: I already told you, and you should be listening.
30:18
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, that is not where I thought that
30:21
Speaker 3: was gonna go.
30:22
Speaker 2: That is not where I thought that was gonna go.
30:23
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, I know, because who says that
30:27
Speaker 1: to people anywhere, like no, I I told you and
30:31
Speaker 1: you should have listened.
30:32
Speaker 3: Well, I think for me it's more of like less
30:35
Speaker 3: like I'm an anxious person and I have like a
30:38
Speaker 3: really good memory, and I'm also like a feeling. So
30:40
Speaker 3: if someone says something that has like a really strong
30:43
Speaker 3: connotation to me, I'm gonna go through that experience and
30:47
Speaker 3: then and then it's gonna trail off. So I normally
30:51
Speaker 3: say something like, can you just rephrase that, please, because
30:56
Speaker 3: like it's not that I wasn't listening. I was so
30:59
Speaker 3: distracted by what you said that there's no way you
31:01
Speaker 3: could possibly know is you just asked him question right?
31:05
Speaker 3: That Like that would just make me lose my mind.
31:08
Speaker 3: But I'm lucky that I when I ask that people
31:11
Speaker 3: understand like I'm it's not that I'm not listening, it's
31:14
Speaker 3: just it might get lost. And the longer I'm in
31:16
Speaker 3: the board game industry and the more I play games
31:18
Speaker 3: with people, the more it's obvious that my brain just
31:21
Speaker 3: processes information differently. And how I hate I hate when
31:25
Speaker 3: people talk about intuitiveness in board games because what's intuitive
31:29
Speaker 3: to one person? I genuinely don't think it's intuitive to
31:31
Speaker 3: like me and have like I've been told that move
31:35
Speaker 3: is suboptimal, and I was.
31:36
Speaker 4: Like, is it?
31:37
Speaker 2: I don't think it is. I think it's perfect. Like
31:39
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to minmax my way to a win.
31:41
Speaker 3: I'm trying to like figure out a way with what
31:44
Speaker 3: I have to like come out on top, and more
31:47
Speaker 3: times than not I do so.
31:49
Speaker 2: Like I hate when people talk about intuitiveness, but I
31:51
Speaker 2: also think it's people start.
31:53
Speaker 3: When people say intuitive, they don't I don't think they
31:56
Speaker 3: actually mean intuitive.
31:57
Speaker 2: I think that they mean that that's just how my
31:59
Speaker 2: brain works.
32:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's what would have made sense to me.
32:03
Speaker 1: I Have I thrown a Have I walked away from
32:08
Speaker 1: the table after I've knocked my own chair down because
32:10
Speaker 1: my brother in law has beat me at?
32:15
Speaker 2: Oh?
32:15
Speaker 1: No? What's the train game to get to Ride? Take
32:19
Speaker 1: it to Ride, which is one of my favorite games.
32:22
Speaker 1: Will I have completed four railroads in that game and
32:25
Speaker 1: then my brother in law beat me by three points
32:28
Speaker 1: because he got the longest railroad and that technicality made
32:32
Speaker 1: him win.
32:33
Speaker 2: Yes.
32:35
Speaker 1: Will I walk up to the board game the next
32:37
Speaker 1: time and be like today is the only today? All
32:39
Speaker 1: I care about is the longest railroad?
32:41
Speaker 3: No?
32:42
Speaker 1: Because I like getting the cards and I like being like, Okay,
32:45
Speaker 1: I can connect San Francis, go to Al el Paso,
32:49
Speaker 1: and while I'm doing that, I can also get from
32:51
Speaker 1: Maine over here and connect it all and get these
32:56
Speaker 1: four railroads. So I'm going to keep all of my cards,
32:59
Speaker 1: and I guess I could be a little less competitive,
33:03
Speaker 1: but it does. It makes my brain tingle, like it
33:06
Speaker 1: gets the it gets the good feelings.
33:08
Speaker 2: In oh one thousand percent.
33:11
Speaker 3: Like I always say, if I'm not holding all the cards,
33:13
Speaker 3: I'm not playing the game, Like I'm the reason why
33:16
Speaker 3: there's a hand limit, because that's always my first question,
33:19
Speaker 3: wants the hand limit, and like Curve, and I was
33:21
Speaker 3: like I play a lot by feel and like have
33:24
Speaker 3: you ever played the game BLOCKUS or like Locust BLOCKUS.
33:27
Speaker 1: No, but I'm vaguely familiar with it. I think a
33:31
Speaker 1: lot of people are familiar with it. Like I can
33:33
Speaker 1: picture the box in my.
33:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a box. There's a bunch of like teches
33:37
Speaker 3: like pieces, and I get accused of just like, oh,
33:40
Speaker 3: you have all these plans, Like no, I really hold
33:42
Speaker 3: a piece, see if it feels right, If it doesn't,
33:44
Speaker 3: put it down by the next one.
33:46
Speaker 2: And that's how I play games.
33:48
Speaker 3: And it confuses people, and then they get mad when
33:50
Speaker 3: I win and they're like, oh, blah blah blah. And
33:52
Speaker 3: I was like, my like, if I change like my
33:56
Speaker 3: feelings to like intuition or like my feelings, that they
34:01
Speaker 3: be way happier than I feel. But I do feel,
34:04
Speaker 3: and I'm not going to shy away from the fact
34:06
Speaker 3: that I do feel, and I'm very like. It's one
34:08
Speaker 3: of the things that I love about me and my
34:10
Speaker 3: friends like about me is that I'm very honest and
34:12
Speaker 3: I speak my feelings and I'm loved and I can
34:14
Speaker 3: sit in my emotions.
34:15
Speaker 1: Have there been times in your career or even just
34:19
Speaker 1: as a board game lover where it really hit you that, oh,
34:25
Speaker 1: this is a direct consequence because of the lack of
34:28
Speaker 1: diversity that we see in board games or in game development.
34:32
Speaker 3: Kind of the one that's coming to mind is when
34:35
Speaker 3: people talk about diversity and making games more accessible. Do
34:40
Speaker 3: you know what the default thing people talk point too
34:45
Speaker 3: for accessibility.
34:46
Speaker 1: Is for accessibility or for diversity or.
34:51
Speaker 2: For diversity slash accessibility. Yeah, it speak to me. They're
34:54
Speaker 2: very innertying.
34:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, they revamped Clue and they
34:59
Speaker 1: make miscar a black woman and then they put her
35:02
Speaker 1: real big on the box to be like he didn't.
35:05
Speaker 3: So like for me, they're intertwined because so the go
35:07
Speaker 3: to thing they talk about accessibility is they talk about
35:10
Speaker 3: color blindness. And if you look into it, color blindness
35:14
Speaker 3: mostly affects white men. So that's why they talk about
35:18
Speaker 3: making game more diverse, more accessible. It's more accessible for them.
35:21
Speaker 3: And when people talk about accessibility and that's the only
35:24
Speaker 3: thing they care about, it makes me just go okay,
35:28
Speaker 3: genuinely just don't care, like when people talk about diversity
35:32
Speaker 3: of body types or diversity of like even just like
35:35
Speaker 3: hair color. There's games I've played where it's just like
35:38
Speaker 3: not even like it's just like brown and blonde hair,
35:40
Speaker 3: people like there's black Irish right, Like you can't tell me.
35:44
Speaker 2: Like as someone who grew up in.
35:46
Speaker 3: Texas, I grew up in a very in one of
35:48
Speaker 3: those diversifying suburbs they always talk about.
35:51
Speaker 2: And even for me walking to the room, it's like
35:53
Speaker 2: the first thing I noticed.
35:54
Speaker 3: And when you play a game, it's the first thing
35:56
Speaker 3: I notice, and it's and it it gets infuriating. And
36:01
Speaker 3: so whenever I was in the borgame design forums once
36:04
Speaker 3: and there was a white borgame designer who was trying
36:10
Speaker 3: to add more diversity to his game and posted a
36:15
Speaker 3: like a black character and one of them had a.
36:17
Speaker 2: Flat like a flat top, like a Hey Arnold nineties flattop.
36:21
Speaker 3: The other had like a fro and then they basically
36:25
Speaker 3: was up for discussion which one they preferred. And Borgame
36:29
Speaker 3: design forums are mostly white men, and I had the
36:32
Speaker 3: ick because it's basically like a white dude asking other
36:36
Speaker 3: white dudes which hairsty style is more tolerable, and it's
36:40
Speaker 3: like things like that that I'm like, I have to
36:42
Speaker 3: tell you guys this, like I don't understand.
36:45
Speaker 2: I don't understand.
36:46
Speaker 1: I hate, like I don't hate telling the story, but
36:51
Speaker 1: I I have been the white woman explaining other things
36:56
Speaker 1: to white people in the room so many times. And
37:00
Speaker 1: a fun example, or not so fun example, because I
37:03
Speaker 1: meant I did not enjoy the movie was we were
37:06
Speaker 1: watching Hit Bad Hair on Hulu, which is a horror movie.
37:11
Speaker 1: It's a horror comedy with Nicole Bayer where a weave
37:15
Speaker 1: is possessing people and then like horror hygiene ensue. And
37:20
Speaker 1: I was watching it with a room full of white
37:22
Speaker 1: people and they just kept asking ignorant questions and I
37:26
Speaker 1: was like what, and they'd be like, I don't to
37:29
Speaker 1: understand how this would happen. And I was like, so
37:32
Speaker 1: then I'm explaining weaves or whatever, and then I'm explaining
37:35
Speaker 1: like people who are coming on screen who are like
37:38
Speaker 1: in a different world or living color or whatever. And
37:42
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, everyone, I know that we're in Ohio.
37:47
Speaker 1: I get it, but have you ever turned on the
37:50
Speaker 1: TV and seeing anyone who doesn't look like you? Or
37:54
Speaker 1: are you only watching nineteen and counting on TLC? Like
37:59
Speaker 1: what are we doing? When you told me that it
38:02
Speaker 1: was just like white men going back and forth on
38:04
Speaker 1: which hair style was tolerable, I was like, oh my gosh.
38:09
Speaker 1: It again makes the person that they're trying to quote
38:14
Speaker 1: unquote like respect or probably just appease. It still just
38:19
Speaker 1: makes them a commodity to the game and to all
38:23
Speaker 1: of it.
38:24
Speaker 3: I've had I maictually talk once talking about how they're
38:28
Speaker 3: people who say they've never like played a board game
38:31
Speaker 3: with like a minority person before, and I was like
38:34
Speaker 3: that's interesting. And I was like, I guess if you
38:36
Speaker 3: want the experience, hit me up.
38:38
Speaker 2: Let's go. Why not, right? And I took someone up on.
38:44
Speaker 3: That offer and we played a game and the first
38:47
Speaker 3: words were I never played with a gay before.
38:51
Speaker 1: That's so sad.
38:53
Speaker 3: I was just like that, you know.
38:55
Speaker 2: My response was that you know, of.
38:59
Speaker 3: Hey, right, because is like it's not like you're not
39:03
Speaker 3: where like yeah, so And then the entire time they
39:06
Speaker 3: just hipt on saying things, and I just remember saying, like,
39:09
Speaker 3: that's probably why you have it, it's because you and like,
39:11
Speaker 3: it's not my job. One of the biggest differences. So
39:16
Speaker 3: I've diverse In the borgan industry, there's like the main
39:20
Speaker 3: thought is to like uplift voices and to include other
39:27
Speaker 3: people who are like marginalized. But the moorgame industry specifically,
39:32
Speaker 3: a lot of it, very minimal of it goes towards
39:36
Speaker 3: like allyship and for me, I have the obbs of
39:39
Speaker 3: experience of a one of other bipop people in the
39:41
Speaker 3: industry because they've had other bipop people reach out. I've
39:44
Speaker 3: had allies reach out to me and have been very beneficial,
39:47
Speaker 3: like in my journey. And so I'm not saying so
39:51
Speaker 3: my approach do I talk about diversity isn't like I'm
39:53
Speaker 3: gonna change your mind, I think you're evil.
39:55
Speaker 2: It's it's more of just like this is my story.
39:58
Speaker 2: We are all rome.
39:59
Speaker 3: If you care, here's the different side of the story.
40:02
Speaker 3: And if you want to listen, cool. If you don't, hey,
40:04
Speaker 3: that's totally fine. But I'm not here to engage to
40:08
Speaker 3: change your mind because I'm trying to make games for people.
40:12
Speaker 3: That is like my one priority and I and people
40:16
Speaker 3: think that you need to engage more conversation, like I
40:18
Speaker 3: don't want to do nothing.
40:20
Speaker 1: I don't uh one am I creative creator or co creators?
40:26
Speaker 1: Julia Washington. We went hard in our voice message just
40:30
Speaker 1: one time because someone dared to say the like have
40:33
Speaker 1: you tried leaning in? Did you just lean in? And
40:36
Speaker 1: I'm like, why am I always leaning My back is
40:39
Speaker 1: like crooked? Why can't I just be accepted? And if
40:45
Speaker 1: I'm telling you to plus two is four, please don't
40:48
Speaker 1: get out the calculator, like sorry, I didn't put it
40:51
Speaker 1: out for counters as you and lean for you and
40:54
Speaker 1: leaned in harder. And I do feel that we do
40:58
Speaker 1: put a lot of pressure on other people to fix
41:01
Speaker 1: that problem for us, where it's like, well, if it's
41:04
Speaker 1: a problem for you and women aren't in the gaming
41:07
Speaker 1: industry enough, why aren't you putting women in the gaming
41:11
Speaker 1: industry enough, and I'm like, because I don't. I don't
41:15
Speaker 1: have the time to teach all of the women that
41:17
Speaker 1: I know D and D like there are so many books.
41:20
Speaker 1: There are just so many books that I would have
41:23
Speaker 1: to read.
41:23
Speaker 3: And I feel like there's also people like better equipped
41:25
Speaker 3: with that, Like I don't have the patience to sit
41:27
Speaker 3: down and be like, let's sit with your feelings. I'm
41:30
Speaker 3: just like, I've done that my entire life, and I
41:33
Speaker 3: don't have as an adult. I'm just like, I it's
41:36
Speaker 3: funny because on TikTok, a lot of my mutuals were like, oh, Curven,
41:39
Speaker 3: you're so blunt, you speak your mind, and then they
41:41
Speaker 3: meet me in your life like, oh you really call
41:43
Speaker 3: yourself out for your tiktoks. I'm like, yeah, because a
41:45
Speaker 3: lot of it has to do with like am I
41:47
Speaker 3: comfortable with you? Do I feel safe with you? And
41:50
Speaker 3: if my feelings won't let me, then I won't, So
41:53
Speaker 3: like it takes a lot for me to just be
41:55
Speaker 3: able to like speak my mind and just know that
41:58
Speaker 3: like it's being accepted taken the right way, without having
42:01
Speaker 3: to quantify or qualify everything I say.
42:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, my new approach is it's just so easy to
42:08
Speaker 1: do it, that there's no reason why you can't. Gen
42:11
Speaker 1: Con recently started offering for your badge pronoun ribbons so
42:16
Speaker 1: that when you were playing with other people that you
42:18
Speaker 1: had not met, you could respect their pronouns. And I
42:22
Speaker 1: pick one up. I put on my she her hers
42:25
Speaker 1: pronoun ribbon every year and I move on, Well, this
42:29
Speaker 1: year they let you print it on your badge, like
42:32
Speaker 1: you could change your pronouns into your profile and they
42:34
Speaker 1: would just print them. So someone in my group was
42:39
Speaker 1: trying to rile up the conservative the conservatives in my
42:43
Speaker 1: group with these ribbons, and they're like, don't you need
42:48
Speaker 1: a rebbon? Don't you need a ribbon? Blah blah blah.
42:50
Speaker 1: You know, good old white man Matt Rife value comedy
42:54
Speaker 1: we're having right now, just live right in front of me.
42:58
Speaker 1: And they get to me and I go, I don't
43:01
Speaker 1: need a ribbon, and I just pull up my badge
43:04
Speaker 1: and I go, I had them print my pronouns. I
43:06
Speaker 1: paid attention when they sent the email that we could,
43:10
Speaker 1: And a person of my party went, well, why do
43:13
Speaker 1: you have to if that doesn't apply to you, I go,
43:16
Speaker 1: it does apply to me, because it applies to all
43:19
Speaker 1: of us. We all have pronouns. This was one way
43:22
Speaker 1: I could make this community safer for people who you're
43:26
Speaker 1: going to tell them that their pronouns don't matter or
43:29
Speaker 1: don't make sense or aren't gram like grammar correct or whatever.
43:33
Speaker 3: My favorite thing to do what like, there's a lot
43:36
Speaker 3: of little things I do when I like meet like
43:39
Speaker 3: my mutuals for the first time, just to make sure
43:42
Speaker 3: that like I think they like, I think they are
43:44
Speaker 3: who they like say they are, and like my feelings
43:47
Speaker 3: are right.
43:48
Speaker 2: My favorite thing ever is like I'm five to.
43:51
Speaker 3: Two right, and most if you see any video's pro packs,
43:55
Speaker 3: all of them are huge oliver well over six feet
43:58
Speaker 3: and so one of the things I always make a
44:00
Speaker 3: point to do is, like when we're walking somewhere, like
44:03
Speaker 3: put my hand on their lower back because it literally
44:05
Speaker 3: is right here for me, like, and if they freak out,
44:09
Speaker 3: that's a pretty good indicator of like, hey, like maybe
44:13
Speaker 3: I'm not who you thought you were, so I'm not
44:15
Speaker 3: hitting on you.
44:15
Speaker 2: It's just more just like, oh, hey, hi, see Jesus,
44:18
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
44:19
Speaker 3: And there's so many men that are insecure about the
44:20
Speaker 3: most random things that don't matter.
44:23
Speaker 1: And then because I had heard years of the Nadley,
44:28
Speaker 1: why do you honor the programs? So I'm at gen
44:30
Speaker 1: Con comment I lost it. I had not lost it
44:35
Speaker 1: yet at gen Con, but I was like, well, I
44:37
Speaker 1: guess here it is, and I went, I have told you.
44:41
Speaker 1: I have told you that it is one of the
44:42
Speaker 1: easiest way that you can respect people, and you just
44:45
Speaker 1: choose to not do it. You choose to not do it.
44:48
Speaker 1: You choose to tell me that you don't care that
44:49
Speaker 1: those people live a life that they live and live
44:52
Speaker 1: a life the way that they quote unquote choose to live.
44:54
Speaker 1: And yet you won't do the one simple thing to
44:57
Speaker 1: make sure that they feel safe. You would rather people
45:00
Speaker 1: feel unsafe so you are comfortable.
45:03
Speaker 2: Well, I also am just.
45:04
Speaker 3: Not a fan of when people talk about like, don't
45:08
Speaker 3: tell me a safe a space is like a safe space,
45:12
Speaker 3: just let me feel that it is, and you can't.
45:15
Speaker 3: And like, I just I'm not a big fan of that,
45:18
Speaker 3: just because there's things that are there's so many people
45:22
Speaker 3: who just say things. And in the Bordum Ministry it's
45:25
Speaker 3: it's in she full of dreamers. It's why there's games, right,
45:28
Speaker 3: and at the end of the day, it's just like
45:30
Speaker 3: show me that you care and there was like a
45:33
Speaker 3: one of my mutuals.
45:34
Speaker 2: He was just like, curb it.
45:36
Speaker 3: I want to put you on my shoulders. And I
45:37
Speaker 3: was like okay, sure He's like no, you can say no.
45:41
Speaker 3: Like again, it's.
45:42
Speaker 2: Fine, I don't care. I genuinely don't care, right and.
45:45
Speaker 3: So, but he's like six to two and I have
45:47
Speaker 3: a twenty four inch in zine, so unless I'm standing
45:50
Speaker 3: on a chair, he is on the ground like before
45:53
Speaker 3: he lifts me up. And so he went and did it,
45:57
Speaker 3: and he like walked, he like to created me around
45:59
Speaker 3: like and he was so gentle, he was so like methodical.
46:05
Speaker 3: He was so it was just like it was like
46:07
Speaker 3: something I didn't expect because he's just like this big,
46:10
Speaker 3: burly guy with a beard, and he was like super
46:13
Speaker 3: like he was checking in with me. He's like, are
46:15
Speaker 3: you okay?
46:15
Speaker 2: I can put you down? Are you sure? And I
46:17
Speaker 2: was like where was this all my life? Like it
46:21
Speaker 2: was super sweet and unexpected.
46:23
Speaker 1: If that guy's listening, I definitely want to be friends.
46:27
Speaker 1: But like, if you're listening, because my dream is to
46:32
Speaker 1: just be Yoda backpacked through crowded areas, like just please
46:36
Speaker 1: put me on your back, like I am Yoda because
46:38
Speaker 1: I am five four maybe five to five, so like
46:41
Speaker 1: please just attach me and let's go. No, it's but
46:46
Speaker 1: that's a great point. It's like stop telling me that
46:48
Speaker 1: I'm safe when I'm telling you that I'm not feeling safe,
46:52
Speaker 1: because eventually, I say, you know, the pronoun issue also
46:57
Speaker 1: makes me feel unsafe as a person who's invited in
47:00
Speaker 1: you that I'm exploring queer options with my sexuality. So
47:06
Speaker 1: it's a real slippery slope about where your intolerance is
47:10
Speaker 1: gonna end up, and then you're gonna have to lay
47:12
Speaker 1: awake at night be like am I intolerant to someone
47:15
Speaker 1: I love? And the answer is going to be like, yeah,
47:19
Speaker 1: you are.
47:19
Speaker 2: One of my best guy friends.
47:21
Speaker 3: I remember I was visiting him in Nashville where he's like, Kurvin,
47:24
Speaker 3: We're gonna watch the soccer game at my favorite bar,
47:27
Speaker 3: and I said, okay, let's go.
47:28
Speaker 4: Sure.
47:29
Speaker 2: We walked into the bar and I did not feel safe.
47:33
Speaker 2: Like I walked in, I.
47:34
Speaker 3: Heard slot, I heard slurs, there were like no other
47:38
Speaker 3: minorities in the bar. There were no there's very few
47:41
Speaker 3: women in the bar. It just like I just could
47:43
Speaker 3: not enjoy myself. And I knew that like if I
47:46
Speaker 3: sat down and had a drink. I wouldn't be able
47:49
Speaker 3: to like enjoy his company or give him the majority
47:52
Speaker 3: of my intention. And we took to we like got
47:54
Speaker 3: halfway to the bar and I said, Hey, is there
47:56
Speaker 3: any way we can just do another bar? And he
47:58
Speaker 3: said sure, And then when like another bar and then
48:01
Speaker 3: had a good time. And later the next day we
48:02
Speaker 3: talked about it, and I told them I really appreciate
48:06
Speaker 3: that we didn't have to have that conversation at the
48:09
Speaker 3: bar to be like, what do you mean you're not safe?
48:11
Speaker 3: Why don't you feel safe around people who are not
48:13
Speaker 3: making you feel safe? M right, He's just like I
48:16
Speaker 3: He's like, I trust you. I assumed you had like
48:19
Speaker 3: a different reason, and you talk about it when it's ready,
48:22
Speaker 3: And to me, like that's the sign of like an
48:25
Speaker 3: ally and someone who just genuinely cares is just not
48:27
Speaker 3: having to like question to say I feel uncomfortable and
48:32
Speaker 3: then just wanting to you, wanting to talk about it
48:34
Speaker 3: and justify whether or not you're comfortable. Just I'm uncomfortable,
48:37
Speaker 3: let's figure it can just leave the situation. And I
48:41
Speaker 3: don't know why that's such a big deal.
48:43
Speaker 1: There are there are so many instances where marginalized voices
48:48
Speaker 1: and marginalized people are asked to endure. An example in
48:52
Speaker 1: my own life is I have marked certain men, ah
48:57
Speaker 1: maybe that we know through various activities around town as unsafe.
49:02
Speaker 1: And when I'm making plans with you outside of the
49:05
Speaker 1: activity where we're all gathering and it's a public space,
49:08
Speaker 1: so I don't have any control over who gets to come.
49:11
Speaker 1: If I'm making plans with you, I feel like I
49:16
Speaker 1: should be able to say I don't want that person
49:19
Speaker 1: to be invited, they're unsafe, And instead it's well, he's
49:24
Speaker 1: having a hard time, can't you just feel? And it's like,
49:28
Speaker 1: now I'm not coming because it's a waste of my money,
49:31
Speaker 1: because now I'm just math the entire time, and well
49:34
Speaker 1: and time like like money.
49:36
Speaker 2: Like I've mom said about just like having to like
49:39
Speaker 2: tolerate them.
49:40
Speaker 3: I don't want to have to tolerate someone when I'm
49:43
Speaker 3: supposed to be like enjoying someone's company.
49:46
Speaker 2: Like I literally just quoted the name of your podcast.
49:51
Speaker 2: I was so funked. I was like, not gonna do it,
49:53
Speaker 2: not do it. I love it.
49:55
Speaker 1: I love nothing makes me more happy than when someone
49:58
Speaker 1: just uses tolerate natural Early I'm like ooh yes, but yeah,
50:04
Speaker 1: it's just like I don't I don't want to get
50:07
Speaker 1: the hours that it takes me to get cute and
50:10
Speaker 1: then to travel to somewhere to sit there and be
50:13
Speaker 1: like why is this person here? And then you tell
50:16
Speaker 1: me because it's not a big bad or it's not
50:19
Speaker 1: a big deal that he's here, and I'm like, but
50:22
Speaker 1: he's made discaraging remarks to me, or he's sexually harassed
50:26
Speaker 1: one of our friends in front of us, or he
50:29
Speaker 1: stalked us, Like why and it's like, well, you know,
50:33
Speaker 1: he's just a little awkward, and I'm like, awkward people
50:36
Speaker 1: still kill he's.
50:38
Speaker 2: Awkward, that's the excuse. You might as well just say
50:43
Speaker 2: he's cute and it's fine. Like that, it's the same thing,
50:47
Speaker 2: like he has an arm tool.
50:49
Speaker 1: Like I had a man come up ask me, can
50:53
Speaker 1: I talk to you about this? And it was something
50:54
Speaker 1: that happened to another friend of mine and he ended
50:58
Speaker 1: up saying he.
50:59
Speaker 5: Was like, I just feel really bad for the guy
51:02
Speaker 5: because it's just really apparent that he's not as socially
51:07
Speaker 5: intelligent and as socially adept as all of us. And
51:11
Speaker 5: I was like, hey, that's a really kind chance to
51:16
Speaker 5: take I go, I don't get the privilege of taking
51:19
Speaker 5: that stance because men who get the benefit of the
51:22
Speaker 5: doubt because they're awkward or they're just not like on
51:25
Speaker 5: the up and up of what it means to treat
51:27
Speaker 5: other people or whatever. They get angry at me and
51:30
Speaker 5: then I disappear and then you won't see me again
51:33
Speaker 5: until my photo's on Netflix, like get your outfit ready
51:37
Speaker 5: for my Netflix murder documentary. And he really went He's
51:41
Speaker 5: like oh, And I was like, yeah, I go.
51:44
Speaker 1: I'm over feeling like I deserve to be harmed because
51:47
Speaker 1: someone else is having like a mental block on what
51:51
Speaker 1: it means to be a person in a group.
51:53
Speaker 2: Even just like believing my experience the amount of times
51:56
Speaker 2: where like I.
52:00
Speaker 3: That's That's one of the most surprising things is that
52:01
Speaker 3: when I talk about my experiences in the industry, people
52:03
Speaker 3: are like, well, that's not my experience.
52:06
Speaker 2: I'm like, cool, you're not making a video about not
52:09
Speaker 2: your experience.
52:10
Speaker 3: I'm talking about like my experiences in the industry, whether
52:13
Speaker 3: or not you like, I didn't think people think I'm lying,
52:16
Speaker 3: But like, why do I have to justify if I
52:18
Speaker 3: said this happened, like and it doesn't change, Like something crazy.
52:24
Speaker 3: It's just something that I noticed, and I have explained
52:27
Speaker 3: that I have to record everything for you, like I don't.
52:29
Speaker 3: I don't understand well.
52:31
Speaker 1: And because you know we're on TikTok, people are subviting
52:35
Speaker 1: their doorbell They're like Nest video doorbells to be like, yeah,
52:39
Speaker 1: he screamed at me and then he punched the wall.
52:42
Speaker 1: So I threw something at him to get him out
52:45
Speaker 1: of my house. And the pops are like, ohh and
52:48
Speaker 1: it's like, well, here's my video, and they're like, uh,
52:52
Speaker 1: hands are tied. Let him back in your house.
52:56
Speaker 2: It's infuriating.
52:57
Speaker 1: It's infuriating. Well, I I'm going to move us to
53:01
Speaker 1: our uplifting traditions onto all the men I've tolerated before.
53:06
Speaker 1: We like to give everyone a takeaway from our experience,
53:11
Speaker 1: like if you had to learn anything about what it
53:13
Speaker 1: meant to be fighting for diversity in the gaming community,
53:16
Speaker 1: this is what you should take away from it. And
53:19
Speaker 1: then we like to manifest and we like to hope
53:21
Speaker 1: that eventually all of the heavy things that we talked
53:24
Speaker 1: about get better. So, as a person who was working
53:28
Speaker 1: so hard to fight for diversity in the gaming community,
53:32
Speaker 1: what is your big takeaway? Like what is your driving force?
53:36
Speaker 3: Being open to the fact that people might actually care
53:40
Speaker 3: in diversity circles because of experiences and how like you
53:46
Speaker 3: can treat it, and the longer you eve been in this,
53:48
Speaker 3: it's really easy to get jaded.
53:49
Speaker 2: It's really easy to be like us versus them.
53:52
Speaker 3: And I genuinely believe that when it comes to diversity
53:59
Speaker 3: spaces and grow diversity in order to.
54:01
Speaker 2: Get to where I hope the borghamanitry will go.
54:05
Speaker 3: You can't ignore says at white males because they control
54:09
Speaker 3: how long it's going to feel awkward for us and
54:11
Speaker 3: they're gonna be and then and then they also control
54:14
Speaker 3: like whether or not they're going to fight for us
54:17
Speaker 3: with their circles, because there's just there are tons of
54:20
Speaker 3: circles in the more industry.
54:21
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be a part of that.
54:22
Speaker 3: I'm not invited to because I choose not to be,
54:25
Speaker 3: because they choose me not to be, And like, but
54:29
Speaker 3: there are people who who believe in me and believe
54:33
Speaker 3: in my message, who fight for me in ways that
54:37
Speaker 3: I never expected or dreamed of. And being open to
54:41
Speaker 3: the idea that someone who acknowledges they will never.
54:45
Speaker 2: Understand your experience want you to be here, and I.
54:53
Speaker 1: Believe that there.
54:54
Speaker 3: I genuinely believe with all of my being that like,
54:57
Speaker 3: there is a space for me in the borgame industry.
54:59
Speaker 3: There's a community of people who want me to be
55:01
Speaker 3: here and to be into like and to succeed. And
55:05
Speaker 3: I just had to be open because there's so many.
55:08
Speaker 3: There's been five dms I got for mutuals who were like,
55:12
Speaker 3: I would love to talk to you about the future
55:14
Speaker 3: of your.
55:14
Speaker 2: Business, like whatever.
55:16
Speaker 3: It's really easy to ignore those, right, but I took
55:19
Speaker 3: all of them, and every single one of them drastically
55:23
Speaker 3: changed my trajectory in the industry and put and put
55:28
Speaker 3: me in connections with people who I literally talk to
55:31
Speaker 3: every day now, Like I my friends had been replaced
55:35
Speaker 3: with all TikTok friends. And we were like and like,
55:39
Speaker 3: I'm sure you noticed the day that when you share
55:42
Speaker 3: like a video via text message, it also shares like
55:45
Speaker 3: in the app.
55:46
Speaker 1: Now, annoying, annoying TikTok. Take that off. I know my
55:51
Speaker 1: sister sent me this TikTok. I'm opening it right.
55:54
Speaker 2: Away, getto It's not like it's just waiting there forever,
56:00
Speaker 2: no I do. I'm like, what is this stupid fucking
56:04
Speaker 2: so bad, so bad, TikTok.
56:06
Speaker 1: It's because they want us to stay in the app,
56:08
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm already dedicating days to you, TikTok.
56:14
Speaker 1: I think my biggest takeaway is a lot of people
56:17
Speaker 1: keep talking about the gaming like gaming is a community,
56:23
Speaker 1: gaming is fun, gaming is safe. And I think my
56:27
Speaker 1: biggest takeaway is, or the thing that I would continue
56:31
Speaker 1: to add to that sentence is gaming is a community
56:34
Speaker 1: if you allow it to be a community. Gaming is
56:36
Speaker 1: a community if we're all having fun. Gaming is a
56:40
Speaker 1: community if we all feel like we get to share
56:44
Speaker 1: or have equal time or whatever.
56:47
Speaker 2: I love that. I absolutely love that.
56:50
Speaker 1: What would you like your manifestation to be? What do
56:53
Speaker 1: you hope for coming forward?
56:56
Speaker 2: Coming forward?
56:57
Speaker 3: So, the the goal was not to break even on
57:02
Speaker 3: my first game because it was a party game. I
57:05
Speaker 3: acknowledge it was a polarizing party game, and so and
57:09
Speaker 3: I had the game made in America as well, because
57:11
Speaker 3: people say you can't have your game be made in
57:13
Speaker 3: America and like watch me, and so I did.
57:17
Speaker 2: And my goal was to always build a community to
57:19
Speaker 2: where I'll break even on my second game. And so
57:22
Speaker 2: my second game is a marshmallow cultist board game.
57:26
Speaker 3: Where you have these marshmallows who travel the world to
57:29
Speaker 3: find this mallow flower and they do this fire ceremony.
57:32
Speaker 3: But some of the marshmallows are afraid you're gonna burn
57:34
Speaker 3: down your home you being animals, so they come to
57:37
Speaker 3: you with water guns and they say, help us save
57:41
Speaker 3: your home. So the game has these really cute animals
57:47
Speaker 3: with like super soakers, and you're shooting them at marshmallows.
57:52
Speaker 1: I know, like literally like people who are like, oh
57:55
Speaker 1: nably smelting. And it's because I love animals, and I
57:58
Speaker 1: love like puppy little magic marshmallow people, and I love
58:02
Speaker 1: colts like I love I love learning about the colts.
58:08
Speaker 1: It's perfect. It's a perfect game. And I don't even
58:11
Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna manifest that you break even I'm
58:13
Speaker 1: a manifest a, Like I see it in my board
58:16
Speaker 1: game bar because someone bought it and was like, D
58:19
Speaker 1: twenty needs this, and I bought myself a copy, and
58:22
Speaker 1: then I'm donating you a copy, like I just like
58:28
Speaker 1: want to manifest that for the rest of my life
58:31
Speaker 1: and for the rest of my gen cons and for
58:33
Speaker 1: the rest of my gaming experience. I'm running it TikTok
58:36
Speaker 1: screening me to you two people like you, people like me,
58:41
Speaker 1: people who are open to online friends, and people who
58:45
Speaker 1: just want to make the community put its money where
58:48
Speaker 1: its mouth is and actually be a community. And I
58:51
Speaker 1: love I can't wait to see the art for it.
58:53
Speaker 1: I know that I've seen you like cutting out pieces
58:56
Speaker 1: and stuff. Did you get to play test at PAX?
59:00
Speaker 4: So?
59:00
Speaker 2: I play tested it at gen Con?
59:02
Speaker 3: So I got to so at gen Con, I played
59:04
Speaker 3: it with like two groups of people, all content creators,
59:07
Speaker 3: all very different styles of gamers, include teach Turkey gees,
59:11
Speaker 3: just to kind of get like the general like, does.
59:14
Speaker 2: This game work? Yes, it worked.
59:16
Speaker 3: There's a lot of issues, and then it packs. I
59:20
Speaker 3: thought I fixed all the issues and they loved it.
59:23
Speaker 3: And when people talk about like building community, like people
59:26
Speaker 3: don't think you can build a community with content creators.
59:29
Speaker 3: And That's what I'm doing. And it's a working TikTok
59:33
Speaker 3: is just a wonderful place to be. And they played
59:35
Speaker 3: the game and they're like, people are really sick of
59:37
Speaker 3: me talking about your game.
59:38
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't wait. I can't wait.
59:41
Speaker 1: No, I love it. Go ahead and while we wrap up,
59:44
Speaker 1: plug all of the places that we can find you
59:46
Speaker 1: and then all of those will be linked in the
59:48
Speaker 1: show notes too, so people just have to scroll and
59:51
Speaker 1: it'll be easy.
59:53
Speaker 3: So I'm mostly on TikTok It's four y games dot
59:58
Speaker 3: Flawn because I needed to have access to the fun
1:00:02
Speaker 3: sounds because the business accounts you can't have fun sounds
1:00:04
Speaker 3: and there's no point, there's points. It feels it hurts
1:00:10
Speaker 3: my soul to not be able to do trendy videos
1:00:13
Speaker 3: that I do very often, but I'd like the option.
1:00:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you, just more I.
1:00:18
Speaker 2: Games dot on on TikTok and just forreigames.
1:00:20
Speaker 1: Dot com, all right, and everyone you know where I am.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: It's all in the show notes. Nadley K one two
1:00:26
Speaker 1: four on TikTok men. I've tolerated pod on Instagram. A
1:00:30
Speaker 1: lot of things are happening on Patreon. We had a
1:00:34
Speaker 1: brief conversation on this episode about what it means to
1:00:37
Speaker 1: like put on your public TikTok podcast space and what
1:00:41
Speaker 1: it means to really pop off. And the Misogyny Meltdown
1:00:45
Speaker 1: is a series of content that you're only getting as
1:00:48
Speaker 1: a Patreon member, and it's where I'm going to get
1:00:52
Speaker 1: ugly about some of the issues that are affecting everyday
1:00:56
Speaker 1: misogyny and all of us. So it's a lot of fun.
1:01:00
Speaker 1: And remember, tolerators, you don't have to smile through anything
1:01:03
Speaker 1: you're tolerating, including rolling up to a game night just
1:01:08
Speaker 1: to be told, oh, it's just because your brain doesn't
1:01:11
Speaker 1: work the way that the game wants it to work.
1:01:15
Speaker 1: Smiling needs for joy.