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What Clinic Owners Get Wrong: A Clinician’s View from Inside the Treatment Room · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: Welcome to the latest episode of No Appointment Necessary.
• 0:02
  Michael: Today we have something slightly different.
• 0:05
  Michael: We've got Chloe Gibson, who is an osteopath, um, but a uh uh I was gonna say but a good one.
• 0:11
  Michael: Um I don't know if I know that's a bit pejorative.
• 0:15
  Michael: Um we've got Clay and I've known Chloe for a while, and she's a really good clinician.
• 0:19
  Michael: And I thought it would be really interesting to to get a slightly different view of things um when it comes to running clinics, but from a person who actually works in clinics and has done for quite a few years, um, really explore the things that the a clinician sees within clinics, um, what they think could be done better, where they think things could be improved.
• 0:40
  Michael: So it'll be a bit different to the sort of normal podcast we have, but I think really, really valuable.
• 0:45
  Michael: So, first of all, hi Chloe.
• 0:47
  Michael: Um give us a quick introduction about yourself.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, um thank you.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really looking forward to today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I'm Chloe, I've I'm an osteopath, and I have a background as a personal trainer, and I've worked across a number of clinics now, ranging from your very small um rent a room to the bigger clinics with sort of eight to ten sites as well.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think the industry is in a really interesting place.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of factors that are changing as well.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And as an osteopath, we have very mixed opinions um on how we're seen as well.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're often referred to as physio, so it was quite nice to be invited on as an osteo rather than being called a physio for once.
• 1:29
  Michael: Yeah, I mean that's the same with every single osteopath out there.
• 1:32
  Michael: Everyone just calls you a physio, really.
• 1:33
  Michael: All your patients just when they when they go home, they ask where they are or where they were, they'll just say, Oh, I was with the with the physio.
• 1:40
  Michael: It's like a statement.
• 1:42
  Michael: But let me let me start off with why osteopath.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: So um I really have always valued the holistic approach to health.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually wanted to do a medical degree.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when it came to the time, I went to uni a little bit later, and I found the balance of the medical side of things as well as the holistic care along with exercise and the lifestyle factors, just to really fit how I was working with clients at the time in personal training, and it gave me that much further like medical knowledge and anatomical knowledge to move forward with.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I like the all-rounded care, and I also like the fact we get a little bit longer with patients as opposed to some NHS appointments where they're very quick.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we've really got a chance to get to know and understand our patients and then ultimately move forward with them and change their lifestyles as well as their injuries and whatever else they need, really.
• 2:36
  Michael: So lifestyle management.
• 2:38
  Michael: But on on the other hand, um, I I know what some osteos are taught, and we only need to look at how many osteos practice.
• 2:47
  Michael: Um I am well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're going through your degree.
• 2:53
  Michael: Aren't you sat there, or are you sat there?
• 2:56
  Michael: Don't want to put words in your mouth, going, what the hell is this stuff?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think with osteo, I mean, I totally agree.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Would I go and see every osteo?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: I know, absolutely not.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I could say the same about quite a lot of professions.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with osteo, you have this massive range from people who are they really go holistic.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're like your cranials, your craniosacral, and very light touch, everything like this, right through to your heavy manipulators.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then you also get ones now who do practice much more like a physio, much more hands-off and much more heavy on the rehab.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's kind of hard to picture an osteo as a whole and that to fit every osteo you'll see.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think with any therapist, whether it's a physio, osteopyro, it's important to find your person as opposed to your profession sometimes.
• 3:44
  Michael: Yeah.
• 3:45
  Michael: No, that that no, that's fair, that makes sense.
• 3:47
  Michael: And I think that there are plenty of really great osteopaths out there.
• 3:50
  Michael: Um it's um, I I think you're more likely to see some kind of crazy shit, shall we call it.
• 3:57
  Michael: Um definitely side than you are on the physio side.
• 4:01
  Michael: Um, but but let's not get into that too much.
• 4:03
  Michael: Um, I think it's about doing things the right way and and doing it the way that you want to do it, rather than um, you know, find some of the dodgy stuff that's out there.
• 4:13
  Michael: But in terms of um so you've now worked in in in different types of clinics.
• 4:17
  Michael: And I want to get into it.
• 4:19
  Michael: Let's just get straight into it.
• 4:20
  Michael: So let's go.
• 4:22
  Michael: One of the things I want to know is is kind of where the clinic owners consistently go wrong.
• 4:26
  Michael: Like if if you could walk into if you walked into 100 clinics tomorrow, what are the things that you would see?
• 4:32
  Michael: What are the sort of patterns that you would see that you just think, oh Christ, this is this is not great?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first thing, I mean, one of my like biggest values has got to be respect.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, as in from an Austria's perspective, we're often self-employed, but there's often the expectations of an employee person without the respect of a self-employed person, um, or essentially treating you like another business.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: So they kind of want you there all the time, and sometimes the pay and things like that doesn't quite match to it or the principles associated with the business.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the first thing with clinics at the moment is making sure that when someone joins as a new person, that they are really pushed forward, marketed, being able to be seen, because the biggest downfall as someone joining a clinic is if you don't feel like you've got work there, you don't feel like so away, you can get stuck in and get seeing patients and really build into the team, then you're not going to last very long there because you have no work.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I've joined clinics before and been promised really busy diaries, you know, we're a busy clinic, all of this joined, and then you're looking at an empty diary or two appointments that are four hours apart, which is no good for anyone.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, unless there is demand and hiring at the right stage and then the right support when you do join, that's probably where I'd say this is step one is really important.
• 6:00
  Michael: The first point you made is really interesting, which is the respect because I think um uh throughout the the whole of the MSK industry, you get a lot of contracting work and definitely clinic owners do want those people to be um almost like employees, right?
• 6:15
  Michael: They want them to be invested within the business.
• 6:18
  Michael: But do you think there's a there's a disconnect between the pay that's being offered and then what is expected?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think um you know you you can earn more as a self-employed person, 100%.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um however, when you're being asked to maybe attend extra team times or you're being expected to stay for a full shift, even if there's empty points, then that's not quite matching being self-employed and having that um kind of control over your time.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that my biggest pet peeve at the moment has got to be the late cancellations and things like discounts and all of that.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because if if we're gonna have something like a 24-hour cancellation policy and my patient doesn't turn up as my business, I would say you're still responsible for paying that.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: But if the clinic is then saying the person doesn't have to pay for it, it's like you've taken money from my business and kind of not passed that on, and that's when the respect starts to fall apart for me.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and any kind of like pre-agreed discounts, I always think that should be agreed with the clinician rather than just the clinic's policy.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that's really important to have, and then everyone's on the same page as well.
• 7:32
  Michael: Would you let's say you started a clinic, would you hire people on contract?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I would, actually.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think you really want to build a team that works together and everyone going towards the same goals.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I would want to, I'd rather fill two people's diaries than have four people half-filled and people shortening their shifts left, right, and center.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I would rather employ two people, be able to get them on the right training pathways, get everyone on the same principles of the business, practicing the way we want to.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can have control but in a good way over the quality of your practice if everyone's employed, rather than self-employed people where they do have the right to kind of cancel and you know leave, take holiday whenever they want.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas I think if you've got an employed group of people that you can support and offer good CPD, then you're probably in a better place.
• 8:30
  Michael: And I think that goes to your second point actually, which is uh around um not having a full enough diary, not pushing the person hard enough.
• 8:37
  Michael: It I see it all the time.
• 8:39
  Michael: I see it all the time, particularly when someone says, Oh, I'm gonna hire an osteopath for one day a week.
• 8:44
  Michael: Well, it's very difficult to get someone busy for one day a week or three hours on a Tuesday and five hours on a Wednesday.
• 8:50
  Michael: It's almost impossible.
• 8:51
  Michael: And then in terms of um patient retention as well, if if I come in and see you on a Tuesday, I may want to come and see you on a Thursday or a Friday.
• 8:59
  Michael: And if that's not possible, then it makes life really, really difficult.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you've got to be in often enough, but then if you're gonna hire someone that's self-employed, they're probably not gonna want to step away from you know, two, three days of essentially paid work somewhere else to come and not get paid by you if they're quiet.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, yes, have have diarrhea create demand, like to have patients that can't see anyone for a week is actually almost not a bad place to be sometimes because it shows that the clinic's in demand and people then want to book ahead, and then that's your point to hire someone new when there is clear demand ready for it.
• 9:38
  Michael: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 9:39
  Michael: Um, because I think particularly with osteopaths, but just in general, there's so much contract work and I think it all makes the industry feel like it's a collection of room rental businesses rather than healthcare businesses.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it it it has its perks.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can bring a lot of variety into the practice.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, like it allows me to go and do, I've worked with like international sports teams, and it's allowed me to take on that work as it's come up, which has definitely fed into my uh practice and created some really interesting discussions with patients as well, and they seem to like the fact I do that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it has its perks, but I think you can maybe work that out with an employee person still and still support them wanting to do things that further their experience as such and bring other things to the table.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you have that better control over as and when that happens.
• 10:31
  Michael: And also you were talking, and we talked uh offline a week or two ago about um investing in the clinician, talking about mentoring and so on, which we'll get into.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:42
  Michael: But I suppose when someone is full-time, it's it's much easier to spend a bit of time and money on helping them and and helping them grow.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'd say alongside that, if you're working for yourself as well, you're probably working at at least two, if not three.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I know people that work at, you know, they've got four different things going on.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're then expected to have those meetings with each business, that's quite a lot of your time that goes in.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you might not have the same pathway laid out each one, and it's then it starts then direction and kind of commitment to each of those processes become really difficult, and let alone the time, just for those meetings.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And do they want you to fill out a progress report?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And do they want you to fill out your review?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And there's just so much extra admin that comes with it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if you're in one place and you know your pathway and you can set that, then that can be a lot better.
• 11:31
  Michael: I yeah, and I suppose there's different requirements.
• 11:33
  Michael: So some people have AI notes, some won't.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um will be used two different AI tools at the moment in two different clinics.
• 11:41
  Michael: And and I suppose at the same time you have different processes, so and and different KPIs, uh, again, which we'll get into later, but um, where people have specific requirements for rebooking rates and and so on.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yes, we have figures.
• 11:56
  Michael: Is that does that do you do you find that a lot where you have lots of every clinic wants something slightly different and then it's quite difficult to adhere to all of them?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: I actually work at two very different clinics, and one's very hands-off, trusts me, like you know, really respect the fact I'm self-employed.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now I have a really fantastic relationship with my um clinic manager there.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she's actually one of the only people I will let treat me um myself.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: But uh and then I have another one where it's very much like figures, these are your KPIs, these your rebooking rates.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they, I think there is pros to both.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but having said that, should I want more hands-on from my very hands-off clinic manager, like I can I can get that.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that is fine.
• 12:39
  Michael: I mean, it depends whether you want to touch on it now, but I think having some figures around rebooking rates, we have we start to get close to the ethics line sometimes because not everyone wants we'll get enough, but but um because I I I have a whole topic around that, but in terms of um do you think in your experience that clinic owners sometimes obsess over stats and figures when they need them?
• 13:12
  Michael: Or do you think that the it it's it is something we should be obsessing over?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we need some stats and figures because they're not literally in the room with us when we're treating, and there is something to be said for whether patients are coming back.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a clinician where no patient is coming back, that is an obvious red flag because they're not.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you've got a business to run as well, and you need you need sort of regenerative um from let me give you some some examples.
• 13:43
  Michael: So uh a few things that you know from a consultant perspective, things that I always look at is revenue per hour.
• 13:49
  Michael: Um revenue per hour, revenue per room, um time between bookings, actually, time between booking and and ongoing bookings, your overall rebooking rate, your DNA rate, your cancellation rate, these are really important uh numbers if if I'm looking at a business.
• 14:07
  Michael: And I suppose from my perspective, I'm the business guy that's coming in and saying, right, we want to make more money, we want to um generate more profit, so we've really got to look at this, these, these numbers.
• 14:18
  Michael: How do you feel as a clinician when the clinic owner then comes to you and says, right, your um time between appointments is 8.9 days, and we want it to be no more than six days, and your secondary booking rate, you know, on your funnel, it's only 32%, and it should be at least 72%, whatever this might be.
• 14:35
  Michael: Do you sort of look at sit there and and think of it and see the commercial side of it?
• 14:40
  Michael: Or do you say, oh fuck off?
• 14:42
  Michael: Like I'm I'm treating a patient here.
• 14:45
  Michael: Um, I this this is completely irrelevant.
• 14:48
  Michael: Because what I will say is that because most clinics do not differentiate between different patients.
• 14:57
  Michael: So, for example, um it's very difficult for most clinics to go, okay, uh 37% of Chloe's patients were uh came in with chronic pain, and 70% or 68% came in with uh a hurty knee.
• 15:13
  Michael: Well, the hurty knee doesn't need 14 appointments, right?
• 15:16
  Michael: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Michael: So do you sort of sit there and see the commercial side, or do you just sometimes go, oh, what the hell are you talking about?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got a few points here.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: So the first one is I remember as a new clinician, we had conversations about follow-up rates because when you're new, new, all you want to do is that person to walk out feeling 100% better and be like, I've got the healing hands that everyone speaks about, and they're better and great and they're healed.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, somewhat uh like having those conversations with my clinic manager when I was in my first year or so actually really helped me from a sales perspective with business as well.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't just because I was trying to hit numbers, it actually improved my care as a clinician as well, because I didn't need to solve everything in that initial appointment.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you start to develop your education for the patient as well, in terms of like, this is the path they were gonna follow.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean I need to see you three times a week for the next six months.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: But what it does mean is in this appointment, I first want to just want to understand you, what's gone on.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're probably gonna get some hands-on because we're in osteo, and it's it's it's nice.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And generally the patients respond quite well to that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I also want to say, start laying out your rehab plan, and this is how that's gonna look for you.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you book maybe not just one, but you might book the next sort of two or three with them ahead, and then they understand the process, and then you've got someone who isn't just coming back and great from a revenue perspective, but they actually feel that you understand them better and that they're gonna get better care going forward.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: The other side of it is as you started to allude to there with the different types of patients, and that is really important.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: I have some patients who, I mean, we're always going to see lower back pain and as an osteo.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've got my acute ones that come in and they will see me two or three times in that first week because they need as much help as they can get.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we'll do other stuff like referral for medication, whatever else they need.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we don't need to go into that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And those ones you will see follow up.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes people almost just want a little MOT.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And those ones are your one or two times, but they'll come back six months later.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're your ones that will return in these longer gaps, which will definitely skew your um return rate that you spoke about.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: But they're your long-term retention patients, which I have patients on like they're kind of like MOT, and they'll see me once a month, once every couple of months, and we have a really, really brilliant relationship, and I've treated them for years.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there's it's important for the clinic clinic manager to lay down their expectations, but it's important that it's also an open discussion and not every patient will fit that, say, five appointment follow-up.
• 17:59
  Michael: I I uh there's a few really interesting things there, um, which are completely off script.
• 18:04
  Michael: But uh let's start with you mentioned hands-on.
• 18:07
  Michael: Um hands-on versus hands-off.
• 18:10
  Michael: I think there's a massive, massive push, and you know this, right?
• 18:12
  Michael: You only have to look at the the big names of the country to move completely away from hands-on.
• 18:18
  Michael: And I hear lots of clinic owners going, Oh, it's so fucking annoying.
• 18:21
  Michael: There's all these um new grads that come out, and all these young uh clinicians that come out, and they don't want to do any hands-on whatsoever, so we have to teach.
• 18:30
  Michael: Um, how would you react if a clinic owner said that to you?
• 18:33
  Michael: If they said, Look, this is that's not what we do.
• 18:35
  Michael: We have a gym, an SC facility, we do hands-off, and it's exercise-based rehab.
• 18:40
  Michael: Given your PT background, how do you feel?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think as an osteo, it wouldn't be the right place for me to work.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like straight away, I would probably say that's a red flag.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you need to decide hands-on or hands-off.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you can have the two live in harmony together.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we learn a lot whenever you learn to become an osteopath about the power of light touch and things like that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that sounds very, very holistic.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wonder about that.
• 19:10
  Michael: If we bring it up, I want to pick you up on that because you say as an osteopath, and quite honestly, um, I think it doesn't matter.
• 19:17
  Michael: It's it's more as a clinician, because if we picked up all the things that osteopaths learn, um, we'd probably be sat here lighting candles and uh having hugs.
• 19:28
  Michael: Um, but as a clinician, as a as a as an as a clinician that is looking at getting results, yeah, do you feel like you can get results without being hands-on?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Probably, but I don't think you would meet a lot of patients' expectations for their first appointment, is is where I would say I think you build a lot of trust with them in that first appointment.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are in an acute back spasm and you're really struggling to move when you've been there, you've been there.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but actually that hands-on can really help to get someone moving and provide them with a very like kind of form of like they essentially feel a bit safer, and you work with them, and that can kind of coax them in to the um more mobility and exercise.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: But do I get people doing mobility exercise 100%?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Are some people easier to convince than others 100%?
• 20:31
  Michael: But that's what I was gonna get at because I think a lot of it is to do with because I hear it again from clinic generals all the time.
• 20:36
  Michael: I I think to some extent what patients want and what they expect.
• 20:40
  Michael: This is why during COVID it was almost impossible to get virtual physio off the ground because people expect someone to put their hands on them.
• 20:48
  Michael: And and I I think whether or not you feel that hands-on is ethical, effective, like that, I don't really care.
• 20:56
  Michael: If it's what patients really want, then you're kind of looking for the best way I can describe this is if your knee hurts, what do you do?
• 21:05
  Michael: Um take as much cocoa domol as possible.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: You you rub it, you you touch it and you rub it better.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that is like one of the easiest ways I can describe to people that how it's it's uh like an innate comfort thing as well for people, and that's you can really break down some barriers with some quite in-pain, difficult patients by getting hands-on, and overall the relationship that you will build with them is so much better.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: I have patients who I don't spend very much time hands-on at the start.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it's more their assessment, and even that, like with a bit of hands on, you can gain a lot more information.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are there patients who you could treat with zero hands on?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I've also had people come to me because they've been to see several before who didn't do any hands on, so there's a clearer expectation.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And as a clinician, but I think that's an uh patient discussion to have first of all is what are their expectations.
• 22:07
  Michael: Yeah, I I think it's an interesting one because there's there's a lot of um uh clinicians who really are one or the other actually, um, but I think it does come down to that patient experience and what they expect and so on.
• 22:20
  Michael: You mentioned um and I hate this word, um you mentioned the word Well you said that people come back to you and they'll come back every now and again and they'll come back every three months or whatever.
• 22:30
  Michael: And you mentioned it was potentially because of the outcome uh and outcomes and source.
• 22:35
  Michael: I I think that personally, I think that outcomes are almost irrelevant to any discussion uh in terms of running a clinic, uh how uh a physio clinic, I would just use the the word physio, but running a physio MSK clinic in terms of whether people come back to you or not, because quite honestly 80% of people will get better over time anyway, right?
• 22:57
  Michael: We'll um and beyond that, people don't know what a good clinician is.
• 23:02
  Michael: Um, even once they've seen them.
• 23:04
  Michael: I think that um everyone wants to and I just I I talked to you about this actually because I I uh someone you you know, I was on a I was watching a panel.
• 23:14
  Michael: Um and yeah, I'll bring up here it's really interesting because there was this panel of um a guy who runs a very, very big um MSK business uh uh and and then two aesthetics clinic owners.
• 23:27
  Michael: It was so interesting that the uh MSK guy talked about outcomes, outcomes, outcomes, demographics, and etc.
• 23:34
  Michael: etc.
• 23:35
  Michael: And the aesthetics guys never talked about it at all.
• 23:37
  Michael: They it was just like you go to a dentist, you don't think, hmm, I wonder if I'm gonna get a good outcome here.
• 23:43
  Michael: It's just presumed that I'm going to see a dentist and they're gonna stop my tooth from hurting.
• 23:47
  Michael: But what um the aesthetics guys talked about was experience.
• 23:51
  Michael: It was about does the patient, and in fact, they never called them patients.
• 23:54
  Michael: That was another interesting thing.
• 23:56
  Michael: Um the MSK thing, it was all patient, patient, patient.
• 23:58
  Michael: With those guys, it was customers and fine.
• 24:01
  Michael: And it was about the experience.
• 24:03
  Michael: What is it like walking into the clinic?
• 24:05
  Michael: What are the people like?
• 24:06
  Michael: What are the clinicians like as people?
• 24:09
  Michael: And I think I don't know if you disagree with me, but I think people come back to you because of who you are rather than anything else.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say most people make their mind up whether they're gonna come back in the first I'd say two minutes, but max five.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Before I've actually treated them.
• 24:33
  Michael: So what is it that that you have to do in that first few minutes to to get them to come back?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Shut up and listen.
• 24:42
  Michael: Okay.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm if I'm really honest, I don't say a lot for the first five minutes of an appointment.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I ask how their day was when they're on the way into the treatment room, and then I'm like, tell me why you're here, what can I do for you?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: And they just start talking, and then because I'm not just hammering them with questions at the start, it allows them to kind of tell everything from their perspective.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll drop in with a few points of direction, but realistically, the first few minutes I don't actually say a lot, and it they they've come to see you because they've got something to tell you and something they want help with, so let them fucking tell you, like, because otherwise you're gonna just direct it all in your way, and you might miss some key stuff that they'll tell you.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: They'll they'll tell you that they were playing tennis the other week, they'll tell you that they've lost a family member, they'll they'll tell you those other things that contribute towards that picture if you actually just let them talk.
• 25:34
  Michael: So you're actually uh in some ways building a bit of a personal relationship right at the start straight away.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: That that's what will make them come back, yeah.
• 25:42
  Michael: Yeah, it's it's knowing who they are and letting them talk about different things and throwing it out.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I know where they're going on holiday, I know which clients of mine are dating, everything.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's important because then they relax and they talk to you.
• 25:56
  Michael: Oh, it's no different than going to a hairdresser, right?
• 25:58
  Michael: You go to the hairdresser, everything about you.
• 26:01
  Michael: You come back and and and tell them that you know you've had another argument and the boys, whatever.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, absolutely.
• 26:07
  Michael: So I think that's really important.
• 26:09
  Michael: Again, I I I I feel so strongly that when when clinic owners are hiring, they're hiring for clinical excellence a lot the time, and not hiring for the person that's actually really likable that will get on people.
• 26:24
  Michael: And I think that's so much more important.
• 26:27
  Michael: Uh, I'm not saying clinical skills are not important at all, but um, I I think that the clinic owners should look more at how likable is this person, how well will they get on with clients?
• 26:39
  Michael: Are they nice?
• 26:40
  Michael: Um and I see this evidence all the time actually, when someone hires a new physio.
• 26:43
  Michael: Uh I I know one client who who lost a physio substitute, he didn't die.
• 26:49
  Michael: Extreme.
• 26:50
  Michael: And they were very, very clinically like fantastic, they were right up there.
• 26:54
  Michael: But when the new younger girl came in, um, and I do think there's a little, and I I can say this on the podcast, I do think there's a bit to do with that, actually.
• 27:02
  Michael: It's it's some interesting data that we have, but um which we'll go into as well.
• 27:06
  Michael: But um, as soon as the new person came in that was just ultimately more likely, maybe not clinically as excellent, their numbers shot through the roof.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um I can't remember exactly where I was gonna say this.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: You said something about the clinical excellence.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's when there's you can know everything, you could know the most in-depth.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're talking physio, so I'll give them credit here, their ACL rehab.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they could know the pathway back to front, they could know their outcome measures, all of this.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: If they can't communicate that to a patient, then it's it's not useful.
• 27:46
  Michael: So can you let's say you were hiring?
• 27:49
  Michael: Yeah, how do you uh test that?
• 27:52
  Michael: How do you figure out if someone can do that?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I would, if I'm really honest, I would just go for a coffee with them first and talk to them.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can you have a normal conversation with them?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Can they tell you about what they've done?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, rather than going straight in with how would you treat this knee and like what tests would you do?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the first contact that they're going to have with the patient as well.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is can you sit down and talk to me and get to know me as a person and can you build that relationship?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also think that feeds into their wider practice.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I know some amazing other clinicians and consultants and other people in the industry now, and that's through chatting to them and get to know them.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need to be able to meet the wider thing.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you stay in your clinic room as your own, just reading the best way to rehab an ACL, well, you're not going to get very far because you don't know anyone else.
• 28:47
  Michael: And and I suppose it extends um to the culture of the business as well.
• 28:50
  Michael: Because if you've got people we've always tried to do this at HMDG, if you've got people who are talkative and nice and chatty and have a good character, forget about the skills.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Basic manners as well.
• 29:01
  Michael: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think because there's patient care, like the care part of it, is is I can't explain it any better than just say patient care, really.
• 29:10
  Michael: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Michael: No, I agree.
• 29:11
  Michael: We I used to um I'd take people out for a coffee, and I think I've mentioned this before, but uh, I take people out for a coffee, and if they weren't kind and nice to the person serving the coffee and they don't say thank you.
• 29:21
  Michael: If they don't say thank you, and you're out.
• 29:23
  Michael: I'm nice to a person that's having, trust me, a much shitter day than you are.
• 29:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:29
  Michael: That's not gonna work in in our team.
• 29:31
  Michael: Uh so I think that's really important.
• 29:33
  Michael: And and yeah, I I I do I do think that's something that is missing in w when people are recruiting, is is is forget about the skills to begin with.
• 29:43
  Michael: And if it's the right person, skills can be taught, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also think with that as well, when you get to understand the clinician that you might be hiring, you'll get to understand where they want to take their practice as well.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can start to see actually, am I right the right person to hire them?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I'm a clinic that's very heavily like sports-based and rehab, and I've got some, let's say I've got an osteoan that is really cranial or even pediatric, or just really doesn't fit with the business that you're trying to run.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they're not the right hire either for you.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it works both ways, and you really you've got to make sure that actually that fits your team, or is it the kind of arm that you're missing?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Say, for example, like women's health is thriving at the moment, and you want to understand what this person wants to bring to the clinic as well.
• 30:39
  Michael: Next question, and it was it's out of the blue one, but it it's it's a question about tech.
• 30:44
  Michael: And as a clinician, how important is it for you for the clinic owner to be going and getting involved in ultrasound guided injections and shockwave and whatever, I don't know, getting a load of force plates and like is that something that that you appreciate?
• 31:01
  Michael: Is that something that is important to you or not?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say with that kind of data, there is that's definitely more heavier done.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is where physios and osteos can differ, is where it is a lot more used in a physiotherapy in a physio setting.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Do osteos use it?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like um, especially with um ultral guide injection.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure the person who runs the smug course, which is um the sports medicine ultrasound group, they are actually osteo by background.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um it has its place, but it has it starts to have its limitations in terms of when are you better just to refer them somewhere where there's a better quality ultrasound and they can provide the further care.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Force plates and so like Valder is probably one of the most popular ones there, they are they're great.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think have data in the right scenarios, and you'll see a lot of that in like your knee injuries and your ankle injuries as well, which is probably why we see it a little bit more in a physio setting, not to say we don't deal with knees.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but with that, there's also an expense element, and it's like you can get into a really, really deep rabbit hole with tech, especially when you start buying shockwaves and things like that, and it's working out from a business owner's perspective.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: When are you actually getting that return on your investment as well?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how many of your clinicians are really competent to use it?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: And do you charge more for appointments?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it opens up a really, really big discussion in terms of tech.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: There is there's some stuff that's really useful, and then there's some stuff where it's a nice to have, and it but it's only really revenue generating when it's used enough and appropriately.
• 32:44
  Michael: And and when yeah, when people are trained to actually use it.
• 32:47
  Michael: Because I think there's a lot of we'll take shockwave, a lot of shockwave units sat in a corner gathering dust, dust, and it's a buzzbearer of mine when people uh you know I I'll ask, you know, how much are you spending or say, oh 25k on a focus shockwave?
• 33:00
  Michael: Say, okay, what's your strategy for that?
• 33:02
  Michael: And it's oh well, if we get seven or a month and we'll pay it off.
• 33:06
  Michael: Well, actually, I'm not interested in spending 25 grand just to pay something off.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a good a lot of insurance companies now don't cover it as well.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you've also got to then think, would someone self-fund this?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if it's an extra cost, if they also want exercise rehab or they also want manual therapy, when how do you then start you know charging without people paying a lot?
• 33:34
  Michael: Does it you know, let's say I had a clinic and I had all the gear, um with me none of the idea, but I had all the gear, would you look at that and go, oh, that's a much more attractive clinic to work in?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily, because I think sometimes if we're going so heavy on tech, we're missing the basics.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And some people in the industry, whether it's fitness, whether it's clinics, like across that whole health and wellness industry, and now coming some people are going really, really into tech, and other people are going, actually, are you using all this tech?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, your sleep is crap, you're not eating well, you haven't exercised in five years, and you're sat at a desk for 12 hours a day.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: And are we kind of jumping to tech before we've nailed the base of the pyramid here?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a lot to be said for patient education here, and most of my patients, I would say we get a lot better results from kind of getting them into a regular exercise routine, getting them to drink a little bit less and things like that than uh you're smiling now.
• 34:41
  Michael: Um you're talking about me, not enough sleep, too much.
• 34:45
  Michael: Um cool.
• 34:47
  Michael: Okay, so next quick question on uh I don't want to spend too much on this, but we we you talked before about um just privately with me about um mentorship.
• 34:57
  Michael: And I'm interested in what your um experience was in terms of what you got when you first came out of uni because I know you you looked farther farther afield, right?
• 35:08
  Michael: There wasn't any from the clinic.
• 35:10
  Michael: What were the clinics not doing?
• 35:12
  Michael: What what do you feel like they should be doing when it comes to mentoring and and helping you, whether that's with communication or confidence or clinical skills or um decision making, whatever the case may be, why did you feel like you had to go somewhere else?
• 35:26
  Michael: Why was it not coming from the clinics?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think maybe it came from the fact that I'm self-employed and they weren't trying to like put loads of hours in my diary.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what as an osteo, as in general, when you come out um being qualified, there is absolutely zero.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: From a clinic's perspective, I think that's got to be recognised.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think whenever someone is getting onboarded, it's got to be part of your onboarding process.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you want out of this clinic and where do you want to be?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you can build that pathway together.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that doesn't just mean like long term, I think short term.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would have liked to have had more like patient reviews.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're starting early, you're suddenly in a room by yourself treating.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, okay, you've done a bit of that, but now people are paying a lot of money to see you.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to have your clinic manager start to review some of your appointments?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: How would they have dealt it?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it also helps you to build your clinical skill set because you're not understanding this is just the way I treat people.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: How else could I see this?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: What am I missing?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also think direction towards CPD, and that might not be offered by the clinic themselves.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's brilliant CPD.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm London-based, so maybe I'm a little bit more sport for choice here.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: But at places like Cleveland and Fortious and HCA, some of them are in person, some of them are online.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: There is a wealth of free CPD out there as well.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's no cost to the clinic.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: That is absolutely free for the clinician to attend.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if I was, well, I uh I was a new clinician, whenever they're coming up, they are absolute free gold dust for them to go and explore, to meet other practitioners and to learn and to see how where you're referring to as well, not just building those referral relationships, but what happens when they go there?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: What do those places look like?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you're sending a patient, your understanding is so much better.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the first thing as a clinic owner would be what does this person need to learn?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: What have they not picked up?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where's their confidence strong and where's it weak?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you can start to fill in those gaps.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Some people will be very good with the talking and very not confident with their hands-on or their special tests or whatever, how they do that.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then also working on some of the efficiencies.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll get on to AI, I'm sure, at some point, but it wasn't something that I had whenever I left uni.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas now, if I was a clinician leaving uni and wanting to join, I'd want to understand how can I be the most efficient practitioner possible because that improves my time to treat patients and it improves my patient care, easier follow-up.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd want training in actually how do I become a really efficient clinician that delivers information well and in a timely manner.
• 38:17
  Michael: Okay.
• 38:17
  Michael: Yeah, I think there's there's definitely most clinics will do some level of CPG, but it's often quite disjointed.
• 38:25
  Michael: Um, it's sometimes quite cookie-cutter, like this is what our business does, rather than vote per clinician, which I think is is a mistake.
• 38:33
  Michael: Um, and I think that there is, like you say, there's so much out there.
• 38:37
  Michael: Um, whether they paid stuff like physiomatters, and which I think is fantastic, or it's yeah, free stuff that's out there.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even podcasts, there's a brilliant podcast out there.
• 38:47
  Michael: Which one?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you tell me.
• 38:51
  Michael: You tell me.
• 38:52
  Michael: Which one's which one's you can just think off the top of your head?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's the physiomatters podcast.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's I knew you were gonna love that one.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've listened to, I looked a little bit more down the sports med routes, so I listened to frontline to finish line for a bit.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's some really good ones around the sports med industry if you're more into that.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's also who else wants it?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Physiomatters, and then there's also some ones around, I would also recommend listening to some around like business as well, because I think as a clinician, you can get into a really narrow hole about how is this being dealt with, what's the latest on like BGSM and everything like that.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas listening to some wider business discussions as well, if you're still running your business, like learn how to run it.
• 39:41
  Michael: Yeah, no, that's an interesting one because I I don't think that's something that very many people think of, and I think they should.
• 39:48
  Michael: You know, when we if it let's take a completely different industry, my industry where I was in tech and so on.
• 39:53
  Michael: I think it's so important to understand how a business runs to be able to do your job more effectively.
• 39:59
  Michael: And and I think that having that kind of exposure, I think very few clinicians do have that exposure.
• 40:05
  Michael: Yeah, is often shown by the fact that by the time they decide to start their own business, they need their clinic room, they open their business, and they don't know how to spell KPI, not mine know what one is.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't realize business rates.
• 40:18
  Michael: So I think that's really, really important actually.
• 40:20
  Michael: It's a really good point.
• 40:21
  Michael: I do wonder to know how many um young technicians are listening or how many clinic owners are making that part of their CPD.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think it's I think it's the biggest thing missing from the degree.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we I could say rehab's missing a little bit, it could be a lot better, but I think actually business knowledge and learning that is the biggest thing that's missing from the degree.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's why a lot of people actually don't survive their first year, because you you also coming back to what you asked me first, would you employ or would you go self-employed?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if the as a clinician, if you don't understand what's your benefits in each camp, then how do you make that decision?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like whenever you're I think if you take COVID was the biggest like sort of uh example of this for lots of people who had gone self-employed who hadn't kept money back for tax and things like that as well.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to make all those decisions as a self-employed person.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like and financial planning and you know, what should you expect, or like how much do you need to earn per month, or if I earn this salary, is that what's that relative to?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: And how much do I actually take home?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need that understanding.
• 41:39
  Michael: And then yeah, as a business as well, like I I I actually think it's really useful from a uh so as an example, I think it's with our um team, I think it's really important to give them financial advice as well.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: Things around um pensions and ICEs and I know people who are well into their careers who don't have a pension.
• 42:00
  Michael: Yeah, I uh so do I.
• 42:02
  Michael: I know people who have got 20 grand in their bank account in the Savings bank account but don't have it in stocks and shares ICE, right?
• 42:08
  Michael: It's I I think there's uh there's just a lack, and there always has been, a massive lack of education on you know everything from compound interest.
• 42:18
  Michael: I tell my kids all the time, I like preach it.
• 42:20
  Michael: I was moaning that the other day, oh dad's talking about compound interest, it's this stuff important.
• 42:26
  Michael: Um that brings us on nicely to um to another topic, which we might disagree on.
• 42:34
  Michael: Okay, you are you are a bit of a different kind of clinician, but I want to talk about work ethic.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:40
  Michael: Because I think that in this industry now, a lot of the younger clinicians, the under 30s, I think that there is a a view out there that the work ethic is just not there anymore.
• 42:54
  Michael: Um everything is about work-life balance, it's about um mental health and and so on and so forth.
• 43:02
  Michael: And there are I I'm sure there are clinic owners right now that would say, Oh, I'd love to do all the CPD, I'd love to do all this perspective, but they'll tell me where to stick it because they don't want to feel bothered, they want to get home at five, and so on.
• 43:17
  Michael: Do you think it's um that the perception of younger people not working as hard is true, or do you think it's just a bit of lazy stereotyping?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the first thing is I don't think that view is unique to this industry.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: I treat a lot of people in finance and actually in marketing and other areas as well.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had some quite funny stories of requests from their um newer recruits, I'll put them as that, um, asking for pay rises after six months with absolutely no backing on why they deserve it.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think sometimes as well you see people.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: That are you know really successful and they they do get a little bit more work-life balance sometimes.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they are on holiday a bit more, but what you haven't seen is all the years that have gone in before that, where they have absolutely not had a work-life balance.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't seen a holiday moving the sun for quite a long time.
• 44:17
  Michael: Well, we were just talking, you're currently on holiday, you're taking three days into your first holiday this year.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I mean that's part of working for yourself as well.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you see any days off as like I'm not earning and that, but they are ultimately sometimes an investment to sort of explore what you need to do, but we don't need to get into that.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: But there's, I think some people definitely have a really, really good work ethic.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think like anything, we shouldn't umbrella it to be like everyone.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's really kind of I will shut my laptop at five and I am going home and I need Fridays off or Fridays work from home and everything like that.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the only difference I do feel though is when you're in the health and wellness industry, you do need to work out how are you not being a massive hypocrite and telling someone that they need to sleep a bit more or they need to eat better or exercise more if you are doing absolutely zero of those.
• 45:18
  Michael: But I'll I'll pull you up on that because I don't think you're telling many 25, 26, 27-year-olds to sleep better and exercise more.
• 45:26
  Michael: You're telling older people in general to do those things.
• 45:30
  Michael: And I think that um, you know, I I said not so long ago, if I hear anyone under the age of 30 talk about work loss balance, I'd fire them.
• 45:37
  Michael: Um because you're all right under 30, right?
• 45:40
  Michael: But I I do feel uh from definitely stories from clinic owners, they find it very, very difficult now hiring under 30s.
• 45:47
  Michael: Um there are there's been a massive change in expectation, whether that's and I I don't know whether that's since COVID and COVID was uh has contributed to it.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think COVID was a massive thing for it, if I'm really, really honest.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've now got people who have done their training and they won't have had the same level of like in-person contact.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I do see that across different industries as well, where they want to just work from home, and that's that doesn't work when you're trying to build a team as well, sometimes as well, or there needs to be some expectations set.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're a clinician, you you've got to be in front of people and you've got to be there and you've got to do the outside work, and you'll get, I think as if I was a clinic owner, I would have the discussion in terms of if you try and like finish earlier and do all of those kind of saving things now, your trajectory will just be so much lower long term.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you did five years of putting the graft in, I mean, I I am the biggest hypocrite for sleep advice.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really don't, but but has that actually helped me long term?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: And would I change it?
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wouldn't change what I've done at all.
• 47:00
  Michael: I I I I have to agree.
• 47:01
  Michael: I I'd say to both my boys, um, if you are, if you act like I did, which is 7, be the last person out, and if that means 9 pm, 9 pm, work your socks off, never say no, only be positive.
• 47:16
  Michael: Um make sure you get your work done, your emails done on Sunday, so when you come in on a Monday, you've got a clear desk.
• 47:22
  Michael: You do those things, you are ahead of 99% of all the other people looking for jobs, and you will succeed.
• 47:28
  Michael: And I I've seen it myself where um the the the the way that um the younger generation now act is completely at odds with the way that we felt like we were gonna go get ahead and the way that we acted.
• 47:46
  Michael: Um, and I I do see it in you actually.
• 47:49
  Michael: You you are definitely not your sort of typical three days off um July.
• 47:55
  Michael: You're not the typical person, but I think that's so rare nowadays.
• 47:58
  Michael: I think it's so rare, and then you get onto forget work ethic for a second, you get onto um I gotta be do I have to be careful, get on to mental well-being, you get onto um all of those things, you know, uh anxiety and everything else.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to sound like I'm sort of like no, I think what I would say with this is you know how about how I have my mental health issues 100%, and we're not opening that box here, but I actually think that when you use that to inform your discussions with patients, because it will it will transform the way you can speak to them, actually, unless if if you kind of say you don't need to tell them everything about yourself or anything like that, but you if you get yourself to turn up to work, you prove yourself wrong every day that actually, no matter how much crap is going on in the scenes, I can still show up.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: You'll actually become a much stronger person long term, and you will understand there'll be a number of your patients that will have had the worst times.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard some pretty horrendous stories over the years.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, by turning up to work, what they've done is they've kept that part of their life going and actually stopped things getting a lot worse overall, and it's given them that person-to-person contact, it's kept that other part of their life running while there's a fire going on at home, for example, and I think it stops it getting worse, if I'm perfectly honest.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do people need a day off every now and again?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but does your threshold for that need to be tested 100%?
• 49:41
  Michael: But when you're in clinic and you see other people your age, and and and you're not super young, right?
• 49:46
  Michael: You're 29?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:48
  Michael: Yes, you're not super young, but when you see other clinicians and and you see some of the stuff going on, are you just sat there thinking, Jesus Christ, what what are you doing?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think perspective is a wonderful thing, I think.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um just because of childhood.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think my perspective, I learned what a problem was is probably the easiest way to put it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to acknowledge the fact that some people had maybe a more simple time growing up, and that is absolutely fine.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: And respecting what they feel is a problem, and then part of your kind of relationship with them might mean that you respect that that's their problem and you help them kind of move on from it.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: But do I think ours and things like that?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but it's it's their career and not mine.
• 50:37
  Michael: Like I I I have to say, I see it, I I I love it, not particularly if it were happening at my uh something around.
• 50:45
  Michael: But um when I know I will outwork every other person on the planet, you know what?
• 50:50
  Michael: It gives me a leg up.
• 50:51
  Michael: So when I see um when I go into a company, I see half the people, well, let's just say not all that not having a great work ethic, gives me a massive competitive uh and I think that's what you have, right?
• 51:06
  Michael: Because you know Yeah.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think I get bored used to be.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you've learned that.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think if I didn't feel like I was doing things, then I would I would get very bored.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if I don't feel like I've got something to kind of like fight for that's maybe a little bit out of my reach, then then I get bored.
• 51:26
  Michael: You're one of those annoying high rocks people, aren't you?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: I actually only did.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: I did two like four years ago, but do I train similarly to it?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 51:34
  Michael: Well you do.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: But am I surrounded by them 100%?
• 51:40
  Michael: Bloody everywhere, aren't they?
• 51:41
  Michael: Do you know what high rock stands for?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's I actually it's out for debate whether it is actually hybrid rock star or not, by the way.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: It might have been it might have been a rumour.
• 51:51
  Michael: I I heard hybrid rock star.
• 51:53
  Michael: Um right.
• 51:55
  Michael: Going back now to um to KPIs to some extent, because we covered it a bit.
• 52:03
  Michael: I do uh I I I I I suppose it goes to my question.
• 52:08
  Michael: Can you be, and what you mentioned earlier, can you be ethical and really focus on KPIs?
• 52:15
  Michael: I suppose there's a wider question is can you be a truly ethical business and be super profitable?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Can you be ethical and be profitable 100%?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would take longer to be profitable.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think you'll have a better long-term successful business than if you just sell salves out and try and meet KPIs, because I think then you start to miss the patient experience early on.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's in a nutshell, that's probably where I would say, are they like are KPIs important?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's a business, but do I think there's got to be a black and white set follow-up ratio for a patient and a set gap between appointments?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 53:06
  Michael: See, that's fascinating.
• 53:07
  Michael: I've never thought of it like that.
• 53:08
  Michael: KPIs versus patient experience.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you've ever said that to me.
• 53:13
  Michael: But that's that's actually really interesting.
• 53:14
  Michael: It's it's KPIs versus patient experience and do they live together?
• 53:22
  Michael: And probably you're right, they don't massively.
• 53:25
  Michael: When I think about the those sort of aspirational businesses out there that really care about patient experience above anything else, because patient experience is the thing that brings people back, right?
• 53:34
  Michael: Yeah, um, it's not KPIs.
• 53:36
  Michael: Um they don't have the strictest KPIs, do they?
• 53:41
  Michael: That's a really interesting point.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you we spoke so much about patient experience earlier on there, and I've had people they send their colleagues because they come and they they have a good experience, so they send their colleagues, and that's what they, as you said before, rightly, that is what they send back on.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you went into a clinic and I was like, right, Michael, you need 10 sessions and I'm gonna see you every week for the next 10 weeks, and I've not really kind of delivered on the experience front, then you're gonna just feel sold to, and you might even drop off during that.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you have a really good experience first or second time, you waltz back into the office and you feel good, that's gonna send the next two or three people through as well, or you're gonna write me a nice review.
• 54:28
  Michael: Yeah.
• 54:30
  Michael: Yeah, that's a really interesting, it's a really interesting point.
• 54:33
  Michael: Because I think um it's a little bit like I I often say, if you start a you should start a business to deliver to deliver a really great product, and yeah, if you do that, you will make money.
• 54:45
  Michael: But lots of people where the businesses fail is where they try and figure out how to make money first and then they create a product around it.
• 54:51
  Michael: And I suppose it's the same thing here.
• 54:53
  Michael: Is it KPIs first or or product and experience first?
• 54:57
  Michael: And it's probably product and experience first, and the KPIs should follow, then, right?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they they should be the byproduct of the patient experience.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna come back, whether it's next week, whether it's in a month's time, if you've had a good experience, you'll be the person that goes, I've hurt my back, I go to Chloe.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's or I go to this business.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, and that's what we have is we have the patients that come back, um the smaller clinic, especially that I work for, where we've really built relationships with patients.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: They come back because as soon as something goes wrong, you're like the speed dial in their phone that's like, that's where I go, that's where I know I'll be cared for, that's where I'll be listened to.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to, you know, re-explain everything because they understand me and they know me, and that's gonna make me get help quicker as well.
• 55:48
  Michael: And actually, yeah, most clinics forget this.
• 55:50
  Michael: You make more money off me telling five other people that you're fantastic than me coming back or seven times over a course of a year.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because then you end up with that kind of like tree effect of they they then come back for three appointments each and things like that as well.
• 56:06
  Michael: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Michael: Um, you mentioned reviews.
• 56:08
  Michael: Uh it's the bane of pretty much every clinic man is life.
• 56:12
  Michael: Well, how do you get people to leave your reviews?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't, I mean, it's something which is I can understand it's it is a difficult thing to get.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: The amount of people that say they're gonna leave a review versus the amount that do.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's definitely a discrepancy there.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've got to make it as easy as possible.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: I would personally, if I was setting up a clinic and the the systems that go with it, I would have it, person comes in for their initial appointment, they get sent, use an AI note taker, you've got some really, really great patient follow-up kind of um notes explainers that come from that.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: You edit that.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: And on that email is your leave your review, because they're gonna read that, have had an even better experience because not only have you seen them, but you've then clarified everything that you've spoken to them about, and then they'll leave a review.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some we have QR codes as well.
• 57:05
  Michael: Um but you ever do it in person?
• 57:09
  Michael: So you've just seen a patient.
• 57:10
  Michael: Do you ever say, Listen, I'd love you to leave me a review if possible?
• 57:14
  Michael: Can I send you a do you ever do that?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I I think um Google reviews are obviously the easiest place.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: Everything sits and then it sits under your business as well.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I said about having like the the QR code in the clinic because that opens it up straight away, it puts it straight on the page.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you've obviously got to make sure that your Wi-Fi is sorted in clinic, because that is actually one of the biggest reasons why people don't in the clinic I'm in, or in a basement, and you've got to log into the Wi-Fi and all of this.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think reducing the barriers for reviews is really good.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe having it in a place just outside the clinic room as well.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: So if the patient's spoken for five minutes over their appointment time and you're trying to kick them out, then you don't then want them to sit there and start typing.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um do I want to send five reminders afterwards asking for review?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, because I wouldn't if someone did that to me.
• 58:10
  Michael: Yeah.
• 58:12
  Michael: In terms of uh, this is always an interesting one, in terms of difficult patience.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:20
  Michael: Someone said to me a long time ago, and I now practice this religiously, if someone pisses me off, they're gone.
• 58:26
  Michael: I I I don't even have the time to try and spend time and turn it around, all of that sort of stuff.
• 58:32
  Michael: Um, and I mean truly, genuinely difficult, just annoying, annoying people.
• 58:35
  Michael: Yeah, but how do you deal with difficult patients?
• 58:38
  Michael: Because the big difference is a big difference in healthcare, right?
• 58:40
  Michael: Because you're dealing with someone um with me, it's business and it's like I don't care.
• 58:44
  Michael: But but in healthcare it's slightly different, isn't it?
• 58:47
  Michael: So how do you deal with it?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: So for full transparency, I can count on one hand the amount of people that I've turned away for um for that.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: But part of that is due to them not being willing to answer case history questions because they're so difficult and I you're not safe to treat.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: So have I ever just sent people away like you?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Three, probably.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a funny story there, but we'll leave that.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I want to hear the funny.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I had a patient come in.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: This was at least a couple of years ago now, and they just wanted they wanted treatment on their neck and shoulders.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: I need to ask a few questions here just to make sure they're safe to treat before I put hands on.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I was about two questions in.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, why do I have to answer so many questions?
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm bored.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is boring.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, the funniest one, I can laugh now.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I said, is there any like I just really want to understand, like, where is your pain?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: She said, the only pain is my headache from you asking these questions.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the story is gold, the whole interaction probably not.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yes, uh, how do I deal with difficult patients?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first thing is understanding them as a person.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and where are they at?
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the best books I read for this was Surrounded by Idiots.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would tell anyone, anyone in healthcare, read this book.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a massive reader.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Surrounded by Idiots is unbelievable for it because you're you may not be aware of, say, your personality and your presumptions and the way you deal with things versus someone else.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if you've got someone that, for example, has like a blue person in the book and they're very information heavy, and you've got to pick that up from your patient early, or you'll have someone who's like your CEOs, your C sweet ones, they're your red people, and you obviously get people who are mixed, but and there's a couple of others.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: But if you understand how your patient functions, how they think, and what they're looking for, and what's going to get you your wins, you will have a much better time with them.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it might just be that you're not the same kind of person, they're not difficult, they're just their own person.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had patients before where they're really blue, and it's like, I need to be, this is the test I'm doing, this is why I'm doing it, this is what we're gonna get out, and they don't care about all the fluff and niceties and extra lifestyle questions around it.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: They want the information.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if I've got someone coming in who's, you know, they're running one of the large companies, and I work in Victoria, so they're running around there or they're very high up there, they want efficiency.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: Without their like, I want to be in, I want to be sorted 92 back in the boardroom this afternoon.
• 1:01:46
  Michael: We actually talked about this, didn't we?
• 1:01:48
  Michael: On were we Instagram?
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: The time of appointments, yeah.
• 1:01:51
  Michael: Yeah, we were Instagramming each other, were you at Wimbledon or something?
• 1:01:55
  Michael: Um, and yeah, time of appointments.
• 1:01:57
  Michael: And I was saying how, particularly in in London, um busy people, they would rather have a pay more for a quick appointment.
• 1:02:05
  Michael: Um more for a for an hour appointment or an hour and a half appointment.
• 1:02:12
  Michael: Um and you had an insight on that.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, we we spoke about this maybe four months ago.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I've tried it a few times, like um just sort of testing the water, not not like cutting people's appointments massively short, still making sure obviously everything's taken care of.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes people will just book the long appointment or the long initial one.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, if you've dealt with their issue, you've explained it, you're given the hands-on treatment, they want to be out and on time.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if they can be back in and back in early, having had that issue taken care of, they're actually really happy.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's important to time manage your appointments as well.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: But on the flip side as well, they are those kind of people, they understand that if you run over with them, you're late for their next, you're late for the next person.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't want to be that patient that's turning up and they're sat there, they've blocked that 45 minutes in their diary to get there, be treated, and get back.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're running 10 minutes late, that's no good for them.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes you get those patients as well who are really, really on it with their time management, and actually they'll be really, really respectful of it.
• 1:03:20
  Michael: Hmm.
• 1:03:21
  Michael: Okay, let's quickly jump into being a woman in MSK.
• 1:03:25
  Michael: Okay.
• 1:03:25
  Michael: Um, because it was quite interesting.
• 1:03:27
  Michael: In my lot last podcast, I was chatting to Hannah either half about what it was like being a woman in the in the industry.
• 1:03:35
  Michael: And as a clinician, do you have you found well actually first question, do you prefer working for women or men?
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, actually.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've worked for both and I it's it's actually really person-dependent as opposed to gender, if I'm if I'm really honest, especially with a fitness background, like I've had a very good bring-up of actually being more male-dominated environments, and I haven't really ever made a decision on that.
• 1:04:09
  Michael: I prefer women personally, although it is person dependent, but um but as a as a female clinician, have you faced any barriers?
• 1:04:17
  Michael: Have you found it difficult for patients you yeah, I I I I I know that Hannah said, you know, in terms of getting that authority where people are like, oh blonde little girl who who doesn't know anything.
• 1:04:30
  Michael: Do you get that ever?
• 1:04:31
  Michael: Uh have what's your experience been?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it definitely happens.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um they have also chosen to come and see me.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there's also a is there's a line there of like, it's not like they've turned up to a business meeting, and I'm the one sat there and they're like, right, we can walk over this girl.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's there's a level there.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm forthcoming with education and stuff like that.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe I feel that I have to do that a little bit more to justify myself as a woman against some um, especially some of the slightly older generation of men, and have they, you know, maybe thought I'm not as experienced because I look younger than them, um, then that's fine.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've been because I'm I'm not that tall either.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you definitely sometimes think, um, neither's my clinic manager at Victoria, and we've both had it before.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, you're quite strong for a small person, or like, you know, and you're like, yeah, I know how to do my job well.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so a bit of that, I think.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: Have I ever been looked over as a woman in general?
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think I've been fairly well respected.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the biggest examples I have it was actually when I was renovating my house.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was my renovation, all of mine, and Then in the group chat, the builders asked my now Alex to sort the skip out.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, hold on, he has absolutely nothing to do with this.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: They just didn't.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was never addressed as the first port of call until a few months in.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: And do you get that in healthcare?
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: Probably, yes.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like kind of a what you're gonna know, or you don't maybe look as experienced as someone else just because you are younger.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you've got to, I would I would want to earn that trust from anyone.
• 1:06:32
  Michael: Yeah, you make a good point about the fact that um people are actually choosing to come to you.
• 1:06:36
  Michael: They've seen your profile and so on.
• 1:06:39
  Michael: It's interesting.
• 1:06:40
  Michael: I I was literally the other day out for dinner, and once again, I'm the one giving them the bill.
• 1:06:45
  Michael: I'm like, I'm not the one paying it here, how they can bloody pay it.
• 1:06:49
  Michael: Um there's that sort of thing.
• 1:06:50
  Michael: But but certainly when it comes to clinics, I suppose, yeah, you're right, they they're choosing you, so it's not like they're just given some little girl to to treat them.
• 1:06:59
  Michael: And and I think, and I was gonna touch on this earlier, but now's a good point.
• 1:07:03
  Michael: Um, from all the data we can see and all the evidence that we can see, it let me put it this way if I was to open a clinic, I would hire 90% female clinicians.
• 1:07:12
  Michael: I think it's well easier to get a female clinician busy than it is a male clinician, and I'll just expect why before someone accused me of anything.
• 1:07:21
  Michael: Um when you think about the general public, yeah, they see physio, and we'll call it physio again, but they see physio as a hands-on kind of thing.
• 1:07:31
  Michael: They think of it as massage, you're gonna press them better, right?
• 1:07:34
  Michael: And 90%, 95% of men are comfortable and happy with a female putting hands on them, uh far fewer are comfortable with that with men, which is why if you look at any massage company, whether it's urban or whatever, it is primarily females that get the appointments.
• 1:07:54
  Michael: And the same goes the other way around.
• 1:07:56
  Michael: Women are far more comfortable in general with another woman touching them, particularly if they need to be, you know, because in their mind they're about to get naked in front of people.
• 1:08:04
  Michael: And so it's actually much, much easier as a female to get appointments and to get business than it is a male in the industry.
• 1:08:10
  Michael: We see that time and time again when you hire a brand.
• 1:08:13
  Michael: Interesting, it is always easier getting them busy than a male clinician.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it's really interesting.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: I would be interesting to understand, um, or interested, sorry, to understand what their whether their expectations would be different if they had booked with a male practitioner versus booking with me.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: Would they would they book for different things, if that makes sense, or expecting different care based on gender?
• 1:08:44
  Michael: Yeah, that's an interesting one.
• 1:08:45
  Michael: I don't have any data whatsoever on that.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, I need- I mean, neither do I, because it's be really hard to get.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: But is it that like if you say for example, you're Well, actually, there is some.
• 1:08:57
  Michael: Um, and it's interesting, uh not in the MSK field necessarily, but um orthopedics.
• 1:09:03
  Michael: So I'm a very, very talented um and highly qualified, one of the best out there um consultants, surgeons, yeah, and female, and she really struggles with it.
• 1:09:17
  Michael: People want the male, um yeah.
• 1:09:20
  Michael: So I I do think I imagine it does follow in that same way because it's it's what you I can't remember um who may think about it, but if I'm getting my car fixed, this is not the case.
• 1:09:32
  Michael: I'm not getting my car fixed.
• 1:09:34
  Michael: I don't want to see a woman on the end other uh you know, as a mechanic.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now I don't, that's not my personal opinion, but you can definitely I'd be interesting to see if people were expecting more of a more of like a care-based appointment and they wanted to kind of be take care of.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I will fully admit as psycholom, and maybe I do is a little bit more like that's just part of your like natural persona, or um, you're like, I will take care of your back and that kind of caring role, versus if you were again, let's go back to ACL rehab, would you be like man?
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like do you uh whether there's a difference in expectation there?
• 1:10:14
  Michael: So I know a couple of gynecologists, husband and wife, um who are gynecologists, and it's really interesting what they've told me, which is that most women would prefer a male gynecologist to a female gynecologist.
• 1:10:30
  Michael: And that really shocked me.
• 1:10:31
  Michael: I thought, what, that's a bit strange.
• 1:10:33
  Michael: And they said, well, the reason being that when you go in and see a male gynecologist, it is very matter-of-fact.
• 1:10:38
  Michael: You are in, you are out, the thing's done, you're in and you're out, and there's no when it's a female, you feel like they want to talk to you more, and there's it's it's a different thing, you know, it's the last thing you want to go and see a gynecologist, but when you have to, you see a male that's just in out done.
• 1:10:54
  Michael: Uh and you know, so I I I f I really found that interesting, and I expected completely opposite.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen a male gynee.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say I made a decision because he was male.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think I probably actually probably would have preferred a female, but hey, we're done.
• 1:11:09
  Michael: Depends on the person, doesn't it?
• 1:11:10
  Michael: But yeah, I wouldn't get massages for a from a from a man.
• 1:11:14
  Michael: Um, but I know the guys at Urban that they prime and they do however many tens of thousands of massages a month.
• 1:11:21
  Michael: It's some ridiculous percentage towards females um from function.
• 1:11:26
  Michael: Um and I don't mean from the the dodgy males who expect a sexy massage, I mean just in terms of just generally, um which I think probably feeds into physio a little bit.
• 1:11:36
  Michael: But it it's certainly I I I we have seen it um when a when a new female clinician um interesting.
• 1:11:44
  Michael: In fact, if you uh if you're let's say you've just hired someone and you run Facebook ads uh meta ads and you have you on there saying, Oh, Chloe loves um training and she loves treating this and she loves treating that and put a nice picture in a video of you off versus a male clinician doing the same thing, the metrics on those two ads are completely different ballgames.
• 1:12:06
  Michael: Completely different.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: What pushes a male clinician then?
• 1:12:11
  Michael: What pushes a male clinician?
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um if I was gonna hire a male, what would be your advice?
• 1:12:18
  Michael: I don't.
• 1:12:19
  Michael: No.
• 1:12:20
  Michael: Um no, um I I think often, and this sounds terrible, it's not it's also not what I believe, but I think often sell more on authority and market more on authority um than you know anything else, whereas with females you you may focus more on what they're interested in and things they enjoy doing.
• 1:12:42
  Michael: Yeah, so I think that's kind of an interesting one.
• 1:12:45
  Michael: Do you know that just made me think completely off topic, but I don't think I've ever met a male women's physio or heard of one.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder why they're um a male one for women's health.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't actually think I have either.
• 1:13:07
  Michael: Someone's found the gap in the market.
• 1:13:10
  Michael: Found a gap in the market for the the male women's health specialist.
• 1:13:14
  Michael: But that's true, isn't it?
• 1:13:15
  Michael: It's very rare.
• 1:13:16
  Michael: I suppose to some extent from a marketing perspective.
• 1:13:19
  Michael: If I'm a female and I'm going through um public girl paying or whatever, I want a woman who understands what I'm going through.
• 1:13:25
  Michael: A little bit like actually, which probably isn't true to be fair, but it I remember many years ago before I got into this industry, I was doing powerlifting, stupid sport to get into.
• 1:13:36
  Michael: I feel it today.
• 1:13:38
  Michael: Um, and I remember getting really injured, and I spent weeks looking for a physio who was also a powerlifter because I thought only a power lifter would understand the the issues I'm going through.
• 1:13:49
  Michael: Um and eventually I did find someone who did powerlifting, it was useless.
• 1:13:55
  Michael: Um I I suppose we do book people who we think are going to be most like if I was marketing a female uh uh sorry, a women's health specialist, I would if they had children, I'd put that front front and center to say had children, they understand, you know.
• 1:14:12
  Michael: Um anyway, that's brilliant.
• 1:14:14
  Michael: Thank you.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_02: I also think to just with the women's health stuff, I think part of that probably comes from as well, people get into what they're interested in, and a lot of their own experience feeds in, and there's not gonna be any men that have had experience with women's health issues.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I think generally you go in having had issues yourself.
• 1:14:35
  Michael: That is true, but saying that I know some women's health uh sorry, I know some female E D um so I do know a few females that are getting into the world of ED and shockwave and so on, which Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:50
  Michael: I would I go and see a female?
• 1:14:52
  Michael: Maybe, maybe I would, I don't know.
• 1:14:54
  Michael: Um anyway, listen, I I don't want to um take you any more of your time.
• 1:14:58
  Michael: It's supposed to be on holiday.
• 1:15:00
  Michael: Um so thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:15:03
  Michael: It's been really interesting.
• 1:15:04
  Michael: It's it's genuinely been really getting your perspective and a clinician's perspective um rather than just clinic owners.
• 1:15:11
  Michael: So it's been thank you so much and enjoy your holiday.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you too.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.