Latest / Wellness in Today's World / Ep. 23: "Matters of the Heart": Reclaiming Your Authentic Self and Healthy Relationships

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Ep. 23: "Matters of the Heart": Reclaiming Your Authentic Self and Healthy Relationships · Wellness in Today's World

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Hello and welcome to "Wellness in Today's World," the podcast where
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we talk about wellness, psychology,
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and everything in between. I'm your host,
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Debra Kawahara, and with each episode,
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we talk about what it means to live well.
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Today, I am delighted to welcome back Dr.
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Thema Bryant, a renowned psychologist,
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ordained
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minister, professor at Pepperdine University,
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author and sacred artist. ~ Her work beautifully bridges
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psychology, spirituality, and transformation,
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uniting people around the world where they can get back to their authentic self.
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Today, we're gonna be focusing on her book,
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"Matters of the Heart."
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And I'm just really thrilled that you're here.
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Thank you so much. I am honored that you have me.
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And I think I'm your first repeat guest.
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Yes! Back again!
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Yes.
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And for those of you in our audience,
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me and Thema go way back when we were really early career psychologists.
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So we've seen each other through our journey as...
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decades.
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That's decades and then both ended up being APA presidents.
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Incredible!
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Yep, yep, yep. So I'm gonna start us off because you know,
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most people see you in your professional role,
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right? As a psychologist, ordained minister.
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But talk to me about when the-
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when you're not in your professional role,
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when the cameras turn off, when the microphones are off,
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who is Thema Bryant?
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I am a living soul that is committed to healing;
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healing myself and helping other people to heal.
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I am also someone who is rooted and grounded in joy and the things that bring
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joy. And it is hard-earned joy.
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Joy that didn't come from everything being easy or simple,
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but a commitment to reclaiming
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everything that was taken from me,
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including my joy. I am a person who loves community,
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~ loves my family. I have two children,
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~ a 20-year-old and a 13-year-old.
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And ~ they bring me joy as well.
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And I have a beautiful sisterhood circle ~ that we call ourselves "The Gathering."
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And we get together once a month and just pour into each other.
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And I love dancing. So those are some of the highlights of who I
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am outside of "the academy."
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Okay. I hear people. Yes. I hear your spirituality.
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Yes. And that it was hard-earned.
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That this just didn't come to you easily.
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Yes. Right? Yes. And I think a lot of your book talks about how when people feel
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lost, when they feel disconnected,
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that you can actually find yourself back there.
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So talk to me about how do people get to that point of finding their joy?
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Finding- going back to their grounded self?
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Uh-huh.
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Well, the first thing in terms of reclaiming the joy is we have
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to recognize when it's gone. And I think sometimes we're so busy
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we don't even realize that we disconnect it from ourselves.
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~ You can be productive and still have no joy.
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You can be productive and functioning ~ and still have no peace.
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I heard yesterday in a symposium,
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functioning is not flourishing.
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Yes. And I'm like, absolutely.
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So...
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We have to slow down enough to recognize that we've become disconnected,
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to dare to tell ourselves the truth of that,
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~ and to believe that we're actually worthy of reclaiming the joy.
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~ I think that sometimes, especially those of us who enter into this field,
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we have a focus on other people,
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~ whether we call that people pleasing or people serving or being outwardly focused.
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And...
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I think there's sometimes a lack of our own worthiness to know that
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we are deserving of the care we try to give to everybody else.
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And that includes the love, matters of the heart.
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Yeah. The love that we try to give to everyone else,
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to know we're worthy of receiving that.
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Yeah, and I think one of the things as I was reading the book,
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the message about valuing yourself deeply and that that needs to be kind
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of the first step before you can really love outwards.
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Because until I really love and accept myself,
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I'll keep, we call it shape-shifting,
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right? That whenever you meet a different person,
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then I have to like adjust myself to be...
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You know, we're very wise people,
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and you can pick up on like what people want from you,
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like what their expectation is.
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And so you can live your whole life making adjustments to try to be acceptable.
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And so when...
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When we do that I call it, when I let people meet "my representative." Then
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we don't have a real relationship.
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Yeah. Right? Yeah. I'm just like a clone.
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I'm echoing back what you want to hear.
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Yeah. And so I think for there to be good relationship,
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it requires both people showing up authentically.
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So then it's a real connection.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. You know, and I think about,
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you kinda talk about, what we talk about in Asian culture is face.
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Yes. So is it your public face?
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Is it your real face? Yes! You know?
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But what it takes to do that is vulnerability.
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Right.
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Right. And taking the risk that if I dare to show up as myself,
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some people won't like me. And that's okay!
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It's actually liberating ~ to just accept like I'm not gonna be everybody's
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cup of tea. Right? So I'm a spiritual person,
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some people don't like that. I'm artsy,
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some people don't like that. I'm bookish,
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some people don't like that. So...
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And that's okay. I still give myself permission ~ to be myself.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that takes strength and that takes courage.
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Yeah. It
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Right.
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does. To be okay with who you are and that you may not be liked.
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Yes. Right. And and I, you know,
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say like older people in my tradition will say,
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"keep on living." Uh-huh. So it's like,
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you know, if you're rejected or judged or condemned for certain things,
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you keep living, you'll find your people.
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Uh-huh. Right? So it's like I could contort myself to be chosen by people
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who I'm not even aligned with.
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Or I could like release them, keep on living and then encounter people like
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Dr. Debra
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who are my kind of people. And so that's the best part.
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You know, and it reminds me when I'm working with clients,
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it's kind of like if you don't sync with this person,
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that's information for you. For whatever
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It is.
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reason, yeah, we don't connect or we don't align in some way.
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Yeah. And that's actually good information for you.
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It is. I tell people after a breakup to pull the wisdom out of the wounds.
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And so, like, what did I learn about myself from that relationship?
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And sometimes some things are important to me that I didn't know were important
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to me until they didn't show up.
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Right? So now I can go forward with more clarity.
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And there doesn't always have to be a villain.
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Sometimes you just didn't align.
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Right.
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Yeah. Right. And and that's absolutely okay because we all know there's millions
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of people and that we're not gonna get along with everyone.
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And it doesn't mean that there's something bad or wrong between us.
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It just- we just didn't connect.
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That's right. Right. That's right.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. You know, one of the things if you ever get the chance to meet Dr.
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Thema,
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she has inspired- your joy, your energy has inspired so many people.
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And I think, you know, I think about people wanting to tap into that.
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You know? Yeah. And ~ what do you-
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if you were talking to somebody and they felt disconnected or,
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you know, just down, what would you say to them in terms of trying
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to reclaim that joy?
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Yes, yeah. I would first say if somebody is down,
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give yourself permission for that.
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Like whatever has broken your heart,
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you're worthy of the space for your grief,
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right? You're worthy of... For me it is an act of resistance,
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an act of liberation to show up authentically,
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right? That we don't have to pretend or perform,
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right? Some people want your performance,
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but they don't want your humanity,
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right? So I think- and this is probably the therapist in me.
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Yes. If someone came to me and they were feeling ~ distressed and wanted
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me to help them get their joy,
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I would say, let's not jump to the joy first.
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Let's first grieve what we're grieving.
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Yeah. Or be angry about what we're angry about.
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~ We are deserving of that.
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'Cause the opposite of that is what we would call ~ like
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toxic spirituality or toxic positivity.
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So when I get my joy, I want it to be authentic,
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which means I give myself permission for the full range of human emotion.
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~ But then in terms of the joy,
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I would say you can feel more than one thing at the same time.
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And so, what are the things that I'm grateful for? Like, my gratitude is a source of my joy.
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And when we say that joy is also an act of resistance,
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it means there are people in your life who have shown up
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to try to dismantle you. Yes. It was their goal to break your spirit.
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Exactly. And so if I spend the rest of my life in this broken state,
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then not only have they won, but then I am living in alignment with the goals
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of the people who despise me.
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And I refuse! I refuse to be in alignment with people who want to see me broken.
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I don't give them that authority.
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I don't give them that right. Now,
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could they have done it in a moment?
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Sure. So I've had some moments of despair,
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but that cannot be my permanent condition unless I have decided that
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I'm a puppet and other people get to decide and dictate my emotions for
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the rest of my life. ~
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You refuse to do that.
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I refuse, I refuse.
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~
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But you know, you talked about that,
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you know, there are moments of despair or hopelessness or,
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you know, disappointment or feelings of betrayal or grief or loss.
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So at those moments, what do you think your heart is trying to tell
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you at those moments?
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Yes.
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Our hearts, when they are breaking,
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are telling us that we are deserving of love,
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that we are deserving of care.
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They are telling us that we have the gift of still being open-hearted.
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Some people, and I say this with grace,
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but some people have become hardened by life.
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And so that's when you get into that phase of I don't care.
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It doesn't matter to me. Yeah.
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Right? So I mean that armor is one way ~ of navigating life.
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Uh-huh. But I would say for those of us who ~ you know,
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growing up I was called "sensitive." ~ And then I became a therapist.
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So there you go, you do something with it.
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Make it work,
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make it work. It's your superpower.
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So now of course the clients are very happy that I'm sensitive.
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So it's actually a gift to feel things deeply.
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And so ~ when you feel that,
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to not judge ourselves. So in mindfulness,
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we would say, if I feel brokenhearted and then I'm judging myself
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for being brokenhearted, I have doubled my trouble.
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Right? So when I'm brokenhearted,
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I say,
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I'm still human, right? I'm still alive.
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Yeah. I still like took the risk of opening up.
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And so ~ I'm glad to feel-
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there's a gift in the feeling it.
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If I feel nothing, it means I have not opened myself to life.
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Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think, you know,
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from my stance of being Buddhist,
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you know, it's like, yes, in this moment I feel that,
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but I know that it's not permanent.
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Yes. Right? Yes! That at some point the happiness and joy will come back.
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You know, and that is part of love.
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Yes, absolutely. There is a scripture,
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my tradition, ~ Christianity, that says,
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"Weeping may endure for a night,
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but joy comes in the morning." And I just remind people that it's symbolic because
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sometimes it's not one night. The weeping can last many,
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many nights. But that whole thing of eventually the joy will return.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So don't think this is forever.
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Yes! Or that you're never gonna get past this.
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Right. That's right. Yeah. Right.
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So you talked about your background,
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your Christianity, and as we know,
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you're an ordained minister. Yeah.
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And one of the things that I have seen in your trajectory is how
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you are integrating spirituality into evidence-based psychology.
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That's right. So I really wanted to talk to you about that,
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because I know you're doing a lot of...
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You know, going to settings that we typically would not think a psychologist,
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but you're an ordained minister.
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You're going into those settings like churches.
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Yes. And touching those people in a different way.
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So I wanted you to talk about that.
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Yeah, it is so important. The majority of people in the United States endorse
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religiosity or spirituality. So when our training programs ignore
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it or pathologize it, we are doing a disservice to humanity.
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And when we talk about disparities in treatment,
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women and people of color are the most likely to endorse religiosity
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and spirituality. So when we pathologize that,
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who are we pathologizing? And so I think it is often because
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we haven't been equipped, then we avoid it.
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So students haven't been taught how to address it.
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Can you imagine working with someone for months and never knowing that they're
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a deeply religious or spiritual person?
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Like you don't know your client.
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Yeah. You could do a piece of work,
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you know, you could do the chart,
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you could reduce some symptoms,
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but you have not yet met your client.
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And so,
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I think it's about teaching us,
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even from the standpoint of assessment,
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to learn that about each person,
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whatever your presenting issue is,
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how does your faith, spirituality,
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or religion influence your understanding of what you're facing?
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Right? If you're depressed or if you're anxious,
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has it been a source of comfort to you?
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Or do you feel judged that like I'm not spiritual enough or
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I'm not religious enough?
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And so I think it's so important for us to get outside of
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our clinics and outside of the academy and go to the community.
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So a part of decolonizing psychology is bring the knowledge to the people,
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which is why, you know, these books are written for the public.
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I have like academic books that are one,
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full of jargon, and lovely jargon,
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but full of jargon.
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Very scholarly.
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And also they are priced like a textbook.
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Yeah. So those books are like $70 and have a lot of graduate school words that like
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your grandmother or cousin could not get anything from when it's
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not accessible price-wise, nor in presentation.
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So whether we do it through social media,
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through your podcasts, through public-facing books,
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we have a responsibility, I feel,
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to share our science in a way that actually is helpful.
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Yeah, yeah. You know, I think about,
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'cause you've done a lot of liberation,
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decolonizing psychology, and part of that is the deep wisdom that
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our communities have and are only now being
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~ legitimized and recognized for the healing processes that
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we do as psychologists. But are now at least being acknowledged like these
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what we would call interventions or tools are now being seen as,
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you know, this is what thousands of years people have been using.
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And why are we so fast to kind of dismiss it?
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Yeah, well, one, it is extraction.
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So we have a long history of taking the indigenous medicine but
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not giving credit for it. So like anything we come up that's healing today,
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it's not the first time people did that,
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right? We're just naming it that.
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And that's fine. I'll give people their credit for like you know,
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putting it in a manual. But ~ healing is not new.
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So in human history,
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psychotherapy, formal psychotherapy is a new process.
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So then it's important for us to think about how did people heal before
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we created this format? And ~ you know,
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whether we say it as indigenous science,
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indigenous wisdom, cultural wisdom.
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~ I'll just give one example when we think about regulation and the nervous system,
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~ along with breath work, which you know,
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we've done these like million-dollar studies on breathing.
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You know, and it helps. After
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breath, two of the big things that help regulate the nervous system
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are humming and rocking. Mm-hmm.
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You- I mean, I just want you to think about your tradition.
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Yes. Right? And seeing like the mothers of your tradition,
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the grandma humming and rocking,
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whether it's front and back or side to side and humming,
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~ that they were soothing themselves.
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But now we say it's like a validated intervention.
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Hum and rock.
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Evidence-based.
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So yes, by all means get the evidence,
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but right, we didn't create it.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. And how beautiful.
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It is so beautiful to see it! And powerful.
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Yes.
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So beautiful.
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You know, I know that you preach as part of,
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you know, being an ordained minister.
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I want you to talk about that in terms of,
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you know, I think about collective care and community healing.
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So tell me- and the dancing. So,
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talk about that.
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So you imagine all over the country and all over the world,
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there are people who gather at least weekly ~
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to be nourished spiritually. And so when we enter into these places,
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the sermon or the homily or the teaching is like the highlight,
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along with the music, is a highlight of that time of gathering.
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And so I would
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say to anyone, whatever your sacred text is,
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if you read it, psychology is in there.
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So when people say like, well,
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how do you preach about mental health issues?
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Well, you know, the Bible is full of narratives.
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It's stories about people, people doing all kinds of things.
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And so if you just listen to the story,
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then you'll see the psychology in it.
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And then it helps people, because it's this false idea
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that if you're religious or spiritual,
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you'll never feel sad or you'll never feel anxious.
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It's just not accurate. And none of our sacred texts actually teach that.
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And so ~ to give room and space for people to feel what they feel
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and to help them as they're healing and reclaiming themselves.
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~ So I love it. It's also ~ my family legacy that
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my parents and my grandparents
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did ministry and I think about therapy as an act of faith.
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When people come for therapy, they are in a rough place and they're showing
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up because they believe that somehow things can get better.
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Faith. That's faith! It's faith.
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It's faith. Yes. Yes. Absolutely!
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And as you were talking, you know,
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I had a previous guest talk about narrative,
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ritual, and purpose. And all those things sound like when people go
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on a regular basis, you know, whatever spiritual practice you do,
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it infuses
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all of those things without having to like name them;
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like here's the narrative, here's the ritual we're doing,
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and here's the purpose. It's kind of wrapped in there without it having
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to be packaged as a manual.
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And I wanna say in terms of naming it,
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that in this- and you know, the studies are important.
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I love the science. And when we try to quantify everything,
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we can miss it. Mm-hmm. So a lot of religious measures wanna count:
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How often do you pray? How often do you read the text?
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How often do you go to services?
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And that's important information,
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but we don't have a measure on supernatural experiences.
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No. Right? On spiritual encounters,
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~ on
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your dream life, right? Of your ancestors showing up with you.
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Well, we don't, you know, we can't manipulate that or measure that,
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but we can miss the essence of the thing because we want to focus
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on variables that are controllable.
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And that's kind of speaking to our research methods of wanting to quantify,
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which I think is very Western,
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but it's like talking about love.
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Right. How do you quantify love and the different types of love?
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It's very hard to do that in a measure that it's like,
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one to ten. Tell me, tell me how your heart feels.
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Did the Holy Spirit move you at a level ten or was it a level one?
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Like, ~ I got three. So we need the qualitative to be able
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to tell our stories and to honor people's stories.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Do you have a question that you would like to throw out to the listeners just
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for them to think about the work that you've written about and you wanting people
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to re-engage with their authentic and ~ vulnerable heart?
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Yes, absolutely. So two questions.
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The first one is, "Do you miss yourself?" Do you miss yourself?
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It is an act of truth-telling to be able to admit,
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I miss me. And I have been busy or I have been producing or I have been showing
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up in spaces, but I miss me,
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the truth of me, right? The authentic me.
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So the beautiful thing is, if you miss yourself,
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and you are worthy of being missed,
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you can go back and get yourself,
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right? You can then say, like,
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where did I leave myself? In what rooms did I leave myself?
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I remember during my presidential year,
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an African-American colleague asked me how was it for me
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as APA president code-shifting and code-switching?
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And I said, I didn't code-switch,
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I gave out a thesaurus.
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Right? So I'm... Sometimes in spaces we think we have to be a certain
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way to be palatable, to be acceptable.
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And so I tell our students at Pepperdine,
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if you graduate and you have left yourself behind,
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we have robbed you. You got a diploma and lost your soul?
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Go back and get yourself. Right?
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So where are the places where we left ourselves and go back and get ourselves?
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And the second question I would say is,
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"Who lied to you about your worthiness of love?
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And when will you stop believing the lie?" Who lied?
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And when will you stop believing the lie?
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We are worthy. We are worthy of good love.
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Love that! And I think what your-
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at least what I took, you should never sacrifice yourself for anything.
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Right. Right. It's not worth it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. What are you signing your soul over to?
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Yes! And what are you gaining and what are you losing?
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Yes. Right? For the piece of something.
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Yeah. When you know, my last thing on this is,
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I tell people in my early twenties,
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I used to think, romantically,
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I used to think if people were interested in you,
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you had to pick the best out of your options.
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So if you had like three bad options,
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you would pick the best of the bad.
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That is not the way to do things.
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I had to get the clarity that sometimes the answer is none of the above.
25:37
Yeah. If I don't have good choices,
25:39
then no thank you and no thank you and no thank you.
25:42
The that is one of the many options that you have.
25:46
You do not have
25:47
to choose among terrible options.
25:50
Choose yourself!
25:52
And I think some people have experience when you have done that.
25:57
And, look, and go back and get yourself.
25:59
You don't have to be stuck forever.
26:01
Okay, final question. I know whenever people are writing books,
26:06
you know, it's a labor of love 'cause it takes a lot of work.
26:10
But if people were to read your book,
26:13
what would you want them to get from it?
26:16
Yes. You know?
26:17
Yeah.
26:18
Two things from "Matters of the Heart":
26:20
One is to not abandon or neglect yourself,
26:23
to choose yourself and nourish yourself.
26:26
And then the second part of the book is giving you skills and strategies
26:31
to have healthy relationships.
26:33
Because sometimes we assume that people should know these things,
26:36
but what if no one ever told you or you didn't see a good example?
26:40
Or you saw a good example, but they were two different kind of people.
26:45
So how do you learn how to love,
26:48
how to repair relationship or conflict,
26:51
how to decide when to stay and when to go?
26:54
Like those are the things that we need so we can have healthy relationships,
26:59
because our relationships are a major predictor of our mental health.
27:05
Right? The people around you can stress you out or they can sustain you.
27:11
And so I'm so glad that this relationship,
27:14
your friendship and sisterhood is one of the things that is sustaining to me.
27:19
And me too. Thank you. ~ So,
27:22
I didn't prepare her for this,
27:24
so I don't know if she'll agree to it,
27:26
but I thought as ending, I would have you do one of your beautiful songs for us.
27:33
All right. All right. We're gonna do call and response.
27:38
So I sing the line and you all repeat it after me,
27:41
okay? In wisdom, may we walk.
27:45
All day long, may we walk.
27:49
In wisdom, may we walk.
27:52
All day long, may we walk.
27:56
In joy, may we walk. All day long,
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may we walk.
28:03
In joy, may we walk.
28:05
Y'all being shy! Son, the camera's not even on you.
28:09
In love, may we walk.
28:12
All day long, may we walk.
28:15
In love, may we walk.
28:19
All day long, may we walk.
28:22
And if you forget any of the blessings:
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do do do do, do do. Do do do,
28:29
do do do.
28:31
Do do do do, do do. Do do do, do do do.
28:37
Thank you.
28:38
Thank you so much!
28:39
Thank you all for coming. I so appreciate you!
28:43
And I just, from the bottom of my heart,
28:45
wanna thank you so much for all the wisdom,
28:48
all your graciousness and dignity that you brought here today and
28:54
for sharing all your works with us and the world actually.
28:58
Yes.
28:59
Thank you.
28:59
And I hope that people will. She's written "Matters of the Heart," "Homecoming,"
29:05
and "Reclaim Yourself."
29:07
~ So thank you for being here.
29:09
And to the audience, I want to thank you for coming to "Wellness
29:13
in Today's World." ~ You know,
29:16
as I say in every episode, remember:
29:18
Wellness is a journey, not a destination.
29:21
Until the next time, please take care of yourself and others.