Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S3E4: The Loneliness of Perfectionism with Lauren Martin

Transcript

Becoming Anchored S3E4: The Loneliness of Perfectionism with Lauren Martin · Becoming Anchored

• 0:01
  Lauren: Hey, everyone.
• 0:02
  Welcome back to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
• 0:04
  We're so glad you're here with us today.
• 0:06
  I am Lauren Jackson, one of the hosts.
• 0:08
  This is Laura Dineen, our other wonderful host.
• 0:11
  We're super excited about this episode today.
• 0:13
  We've got a really wonderful guest with incredible wisdom,
• 0:17
  and we're really excited to jump in to the topic that we have.
• 0:21
  Before we do that, just a quick intro about Anchored Counseling Company.
• 0:26
  So we're a small group practice in the Brentwood, Tennessee area.
• 0:29
  We work with clients from grief, anxiety, depression to eating
• 0:33
  disorders, kind of everything in between through the lifespan.
• 0:36
  We love what we do and we have adored this platform and getting to
• 0:40
  connect with you guys in a new way.
• 0:42
  Quick disclaimer before we do jump in.
• 0:45
  for tuning in.
• 0:45
  This podcast in this episode is not meant to be your therapy.
• 0:48
  This is for informational and entertainment purposes only, so if you're
• 0:52
  listening and you feel like you could benefit from therapy, reach out to us.
• 0:56
  We'd love to connect.
• 0:57
  We'd love to help you get connected to support.
• 1:00
  So yeah, without further ado, we have Lauren Martin on the show.
• 1:04
  I know Laura's gonna help introduce her and we're just super excited.
• 1:08
  Mhm.
• 1:13
  Laura: Lauren.
• 1:14
  It is just a joy to have you.
• 1:15
  I know we've wanted to have you on the show and you were one of the
• 1:18
  first people that we thought of and schedules aligning for the three of us.
• 1:22
  We all have little ones at home and so thank you for your time today.
• 1:25
  It's really just such a gift to us and our listeners.
• 1:28
  We're so grateful.
• 1:29
  If you're new to the show really the purpose of this podcast is twofold.
• 1:33
  First and foremost, we are here to be human with y'all.
• 1:36
  We talk a lot about some of our own struggles and pain and some
• 1:39
  of the hardships and lessons that we have learned over the years.
• 1:43
  And then we also have the amazing gift of sitting with clients on a daily basis.
• 1:48
  And we've got two Laurens on the show.
• 1:49
  So co host Lauren and I know love the world of therapy and I
• 1:52
  know Lauren Martin does as well.
• 1:54
  And we just have such amazing privilege of.
• 1:57
  Hearing people's stories and sitting with them in their pain and
• 2:00
  celebrating their joy And so that's really what we're about on this show.
• 2:13
  And so without further ado, thank you for being here and Lauren Thank you
• 2:18
  LRM: Thank you for having me.
• 2:20
  I haven't seen you.
• 2:21
  It's I'm like misty because it's been too long.
• 2:28
  Laura: I know we live like right down the corner Street from each
• 2:30
  other, but it's just it's wild how
• 2:32
  Lauren: Mhm.
• 2:33
  Laura: but yeah Lauren is an
• 2:34
  Lauren: hmm.
• 2:35
  Laura: on so many different topics and has so many fun Resources and things
• 2:39
  to share that she will be sharing at the end of the show We were trying to
• 2:42
  nail down a topic before we started recording today and we decided on the
• 2:46
  loneliness and behind perfectionism.
• 2:50
  And Lauren is such a wealth of knowledge on really all of the nuances that can
• 2:56
  go into perfectionism and really has just wonderful ideas around starting to
• 3:02
  work towards recovery from perfectionism and really challenging some of the
• 3:06
  perfectionism that might be there for you.
• 3:08
  So I'm super excited just to dive in today.
• 3:10
  Thank you, Lauren, for being here.
• 3:12
  LRM: What are we going to talk about?
• 3:16
  Laura: Yeah.
• 3:16
  So the title first and foremost, right?
• 3:18
  Like that title of the loneliness behind perfectionism just like
• 3:23
  really resonated with me as you said.
• 3:24
  I'm like, boom, let's talk about that.
• 3:26
  Because I think it's so true and the title speaks for itself, right?
• 3:30
  So tell us a little bit more about how you conceptualize both loneliness and
• 3:36
  perfectionism and kind of the, how those two coexist as a therapist and even as a
• 3:41
  LRM: Therapy, like therapists are humans, so we're the mishmash of both.
• 3:44
  But perfectionism, I think when we all think about perfectionism, there's
• 3:50
  like the Stepford wife or like the Martha Stewart esque type of really
• 3:55
  put together and all of that fun stuff.
• 3:58
  And I don't see perfectionism that way.
• 4:00
  I see perfectionism in the sense of having a vision of how things should
• 4:06
  be and does it line up to that?
• 4:09
  when we cling to that vision to where we don't see any other option.
• 4:13
  And so that can look different for different people.
• 4:16
  I just read the book, the perfectionist guide to losing control.
• 4:20
  And she talks about, I think her name is Catherine Schaeffer, Schaeffler, I
• 4:24
  don't know, but it's a very good book.
• 4:26
  And she talks about the five different types of perfectionists.
• 4:29
  And it really does encompass.
• 4:32
  How perfectionism can look so different because like for me, I'm like, I am a very
• 4:37
  open and authentic person, but there are certain parameters to my authenticity.
• 4:43
  And sometimes that is to protect, like in a clinical sense, like my clients
• 4:47
  know me, but they're not going to know everything, where it sometimes gets
• 4:52
  tougher is if I'm masking like around.
• 4:56
  Friends or, if I'm having a tough day, and I think that's the part of that
• 5:02
  we don't really talk about because
• 5:07
  burnout and perfectionism, they're both exhausting.
• 5:11
  And if we tend to be perfectionistic, the worst that
• 5:14
  we're feeling, the more we isolate.
• 5:17
  And so then we just put our head down, we work.
• 5:20
  We assume that we're the problem and that we need to get ourselves right
• 5:23
  before we are, worthy of love or connection again, and then it just
• 5:27
  becomes this vicious cycle because we don't hear any other opinions about
• 5:31
  Laura: Yeah.
• 5:34
  Yeah, I relate to this on a deep core level.
• 5:40
  If you're watching this, I'm like using my hands.
• 5:43
  I say that I'm like a recovering ING perfectionist because I think it is
• 5:48
  an intentional, active choice choose.
• 5:51
  Perfection and to choose to be vulnerable and to choose to be authentic.
• 5:54
  But yeah, that makes sense.
• 5:57
  Just all of these moving pieces that you're talking about, like the tendency
• 6:01
  to withdraw, isolate, avoid if we have a perceived imperfection and then the
• 6:07
  loneliness that results from that can just feel so visceral and so real.
• 6:14
  I think for those of us that are perfectionists, You know by
• 6:19
  nature and are working on that.
• 6:21
  So yeah, I just relate to everything that you shared
• 6:23
  Lauren: Well,
• 6:24
  Laura: Deep level
• 6:25
  LRM: Oh, go ahead, Lauren.
• 6:27
  Lauren: no, I was just gonna say, when you were speaking to the isolation
• 6:31
  piece, I'm, that's where that loneliness is gonna come in, right?
• 6:36
  And I resonate with the perfectionistic piece as, as well.
• 6:40
  I think probably a lot of people can, to some degree, right?
• 6:44
  And I feel like perfectionism.
• 6:47
  Just like there may be different types of perfections or how it shows up for people.
• 6:53
  I feel like it can also be like an internal sense of like I have to be
• 6:58
  perfect or I have to do things perfectly or I have to show up in this perfect
• 7:04
  way as well as this external sense of the things around me need to be perfect.
• 7:09
  My environment, my, and I resonate with that just from like my
• 7:13
  peacekeeper and how my environment can sometimes get the best of me and
• 7:18
  me wanting that to be just right.
• 7:20
  And that, that external piece also, feels like it can be
• 7:25
  pretty debilitating as well.
• 7:27
  LRM: Put together this beautiful party, celebrating it let's just
• 7:31
  say you put together a party.
• 7:33
  For your birthday.
• 7:34
  So you're not celebrating, like you were actually celebrating you and you take
• 7:37
  this risk because it is a risk, right?
• 7:39
  To put your vision out there and to have your friends come in and to have
• 7:44
  the food and to, be on and talking and you want everybody to have a good time.
• 7:50
  But what happens sometimes if you're a perfectionist is that
• 7:53
  you have the party that's for you.
• 7:56
  But you spend the entire party catering the environment and making
• 8:00
  sure that everybody is experiencing it in that way that you want it to.
• 8:04
  So that by the time the party shuts down and everybody goes,
• 8:07
  you didn't connect with anybody.
• 8:10
  You didn't feel seen.
• 8:11
  Like people saw you, but were you seen or were hiding behind?
• 8:15
  I hope none of y'all run into me at a party now, cause
• 8:17
  you'll see if I'm like on one.
• 8:20
  I'll start busing the tables.
• 8:22
  For people and I'm like, clean things up.
• 8:25
  I think it's that whole thing of, there's a difference between being alone and
• 8:30
  lonely because you can be around people all the time and still feel really lonely.
• 8:37
  And I think that's the biggest struggle for perfectionists is that people
• 8:41
  like them people rely on them, people actually like the affirmation is
• 8:46
  like one of the bigger reinforcers.
• 8:49
  Of that perfectionism.
• 8:51
  And so that's like
• 8:51
  Performing and the mask comes on and it just becomes a vicious cycle.
• 8:57
  And then like when
• 8:58
  Lauren: Mm
• 8:59
  LRM: that's why the idea of calling yourself a recovering perfectionist, I,
• 9:03
  I resonate with that in the sense of if you're a perfectionist, you're going to
• 9:07
  be one for a lifetime and that's okay.
• 9:10
  Where can we move it to a manageable place?
• 9:13
  Because if we completely drop Perfectionism from us, we like,
• 9:19
  we don't have any starting ground because it's like who am I?
• 9:22
  Who am I?
• 9:23
  I'm not hosting the party.
• 9:25
  Who am I?
• 9:25
  If I don't get straight A's, and so I think that's where it all
• 9:29
  intertwines because the external is reflecting the internal.
• 9:32
  So that's where that
• 9:33
  Lauren: And I think that's such a great point that you make, Lauren,
• 9:37
  because I think this speaks to the fact that somebody's tendency
• 9:42
  towards perfectionism or that part of them that is perfectionistic
• 9:47
  is not bad or wrong, right?
• 9:49
  It's what is motivating it?
• 9:51
  Why has it gotten so loud and so intrusive?
• 9:54
  And how can we, like, how can, maybe, and maybe the work is like, how do we
• 10:00
  turn the volume down on that to make it more adaptable and more helpful.
• 10:04
  Because when we're hosting the party and we find that we haven't connected
• 10:08
  it with anybody at the end, and we're feeling lonely, it's that can be a sign
• 10:12
  that maybe this isn't adaptive anymore.
• 10:15
  LRM: not at all.
• 10:19
  Laura: maybe it's like not working anymore.
• 10:20
  So it's okay, I know I love solutions.
• 10:25
  So for our listeners who are listening if this story that Lauren has told resonates
• 10:29
  with you, it's okay, then what do I do?
• 10:31
  I know that y'all can relate to that, right?
• 10:33
  As therapists, when clients are like, okay Laura, what do I do now that you've
• 10:36
  Illustrated this example and a couple of things are coming to mind for me just as
• 10:40
  you've shared this story Because I do love to host and I think one of the best things
• 10:45
  that I can do in environments like that is ask for help recognize that it doesn't
• 10:50
  all have to be on me for everything to go perfectly Yeah asking for help and
• 10:56
  then also permission for things to go imperfectly like maybe we run out of
• 11:01
  You Like a soda or food and let letting that be okay versus that Performance
• 11:09
  that you were talking about Lauren
• 11:10
  Lauren: hmm.
• 11:11
  Mmm.
• 11:12
  Laura: in that example that you shared Specifically that came to
• 11:15
  mind for me of things that I've certainly tried to do over the years.
• 11:18
  I'm hosting and having people
• 11:20
  LRM: I love that you said,
• 11:22
  Oh, sorry.
• 11:22
  I wanted to say, I love that you said that because we.
• 11:26
  Perfectionists are so good at not making mistakes that
• 11:29
  we've lost tolerance for them.
• 11:32
  And however, and I want to bring this because like, when we talk about like
• 11:35
  exposure stuff, and you didn't say this, but people will, how we have assigned
• 11:39
  people in the past we'll just go make some mistakes and see how that happens.
• 11:42
  That's not really going to work because then you're going to get
• 11:45
  really good at making fake mistakes.
• 11:48
  So it's the idea of.
• 11:50
  How
• 11:50
  Lauren: Mm hmmm.
• 11:52
  LRM: ahead of everything all the time if you lean in, if you're more
• 11:55
  of like the like, how can you stop researching and just get messy that way?
• 12:01
  So it's if you're prevented, if you're overly preventative just
• 12:04
  go with the information that you have, if you're overly avoidant.
• 12:08
  Why don't you try to learn by experiencing instead of just intellectualizing?
• 12:12
  So I wanted to offer that framework too,
• 12:14
  Lauren: It's good.
• 12:15
  Laura: Yeah, that's great.
• 12:16
  That's great.
• 12:17
  Yeah, the making the fake mistakes.
• 12:19
  I chuckled when you said that.
• 12:21
  LRM: because we've all assigned it.
• 12:22
  Lauren: I love that!
• 12:23
  LRM: to people and we understand the concept, but if they're a perfectionist,
• 12:27
  they're going to come in and make their big, I made the most epic mistake
• 12:30
  last week, but they did it to where it didn't really impact anything,
• 12:34
  Lauren: hmm.
• 12:35
  Laura: No, I get that.
• 12:37
  one thing that came to mind as you were sharing this idea of masking, so for our
• 12:42
  listeners, some of you may have heard this term, some of you may not have but Lauren,
• 12:47
  I'd love for you to elaborate On that and what that means to you as a person and
• 12:54
  clinician and how you see that show up in your clients and what we can do about it.
• 12:59
  So
• 13:00
  LRM: so the that term asking has really come up.
• 13:03
  With neurodivergence and the sense of I think that's like where the term
• 13:07
  first really started coming into play of especially like with autism because
• 13:11
  they're trying to figure out, social cues.
• 13:13
  But I think masking is pretty universal just at different levels.
• 13:17
  And so the easiest thing, the easiest way that I define masking is that is
• 13:24
  your outside's not matching your inside.
• 13:27
  So there's a lot, like there's a lack of congruency, but it also goes into
• 13:31
  context to like, like I said earlier, I'm not going to tell my clients
• 13:38
  that like, I really need to poop.
• 13:40
  I'm not going to tell them that that's just not, that's not what I need to do.
• 13:44
  And so we don't want to unmask to that level.
• 13:47
  We want to take context into consideration.
• 13:50
  Um, but like for me personally, it, it's I can feel in my body
• 13:56
  when I know that I'm performing.
• 13:57
  And not in a context of like where the performing doesn't really need to happen.
• 14:05
  And so
• 14:06
  Lauren: Mm.
• 14:06
  LRM: our, oh, we talk about there's two subtypes of it.
• 14:09
  So if you're overly agreeable, like somebody could have ran into you, like
• 14:14
  they rear ended you, so it's clear that they're at fault and you would apologize.
• 14:18
  You'd be like, I'm so sorry that happened.
• 14:20
  I'm so sorry you ran into me instead of being like, no, like you apologize.
• 14:25
  Like how people bump into you and you go, oh my gosh, sorry.
• 14:29
  They ran into you you know?
• 14:31
  And so most of our overly agreeable people will be a little bit more
• 14:35
  submissive because it elicits that like caretaking response.
• 14:38
  And that's how we get away from feeling
• 14:40
  that
• 14:40
  Lauren: Mm
• 14:43
  LRM: And then with overly disagreeable, they're like the
• 14:45
  people that are too cool for school.
• 14:47
  I got Taylor Swift tickets that big deal?
• 14:50
  Like, why would I make a big deal of that, and so what happens is
• 14:53
  that it creates this sort of barrier because we're pushing them back.
• 14:58
  And so that feels protective in that sense too, because people don't mess with
• 15:02
  us or they don't mess with our plans.
• 15:05
  So then we don't have to go into the messiness of imperfectionism either.
• 15:11
  Laura: yeah.
• 15:12
  so it's all interconnected, right?
• 15:14
  Like this over agreeable or what was the second you said the disagreeable
• 15:20
  LRM: yeah, so overly agreeable, overly disagreeable.
• 15:22
  Yeah.
• 15:24
  Laura: Yeah, and it's it's all interconnected to the perfectionism
• 15:27
  of I don't want you to see my flaws, because then you see my flaws, and then
• 15:32
  I feel shame, and does that lead us?
• 15:36
  Because I don't want to feel those things.
• 15:37
  LRM: And we don't, for a lot of us, we get scared that if we mess it up, if
• 15:43
  we mess up relationship, especially, or if we don't come correct, that will
• 15:49
  lead because shame essentially is being disconnected from your, like the word
• 15:54
  tribe in the sense of like evolutionarily, like if back in the day, if I messed up
• 16:01
  and the fire went out in the middle of the night, Then like I would literally die.
• 16:06
  Like That's how we are wired.
• 16:08
  Except now it's I wore the wrong shoes to this event.
• 16:11
  Everybody's wearing sneakers.
• 16:12
  I'm wearing heels.
• 16:13
  And so I'm different than everybody because you literally
• 16:16
  are, but you're not going
• 16:18
  Lauren: hmm.
• 16:19
  LRM: at that.
• 16:19
  I do not know where you were at.
• 16:21
  But that I'm just saying it, you didn't never know.
• 16:26
  Um, but I like, I think that people, so like we being connected as
• 16:36
  such an essential part to staying alive, that there's more weight
• 16:40
  I think we feel it inside, but we don't recognize it externally.
• 16:44
  Cause we say things like don't care what others think about you and all that.
• 16:47
  But I care a lot.
• 16:49
  I may not come across like it, but I give many craps.
• 16:53
  Lauren: Totally.
• 16:54
  Laura: I do too.
• 16:55
  Yeah.
• 16:55
  And just in
• 16:56
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 16:56
  Mm hmm.
• 16:58
  Mm
• 16:58
  Laura: A lot of my work in therapy has been sitting with the discomfort
• 17:03
  of possibly not being liked and with different roles I've had in my life.
• 17:08
  Like with friend, mother boss.
• 17:11
  It's okay, if somebody doesn't like me.
• 17:14
  That feels uncomfortable to me.
• 17:17
  And there's lots of different reasons for this, right?
• 17:19
  Whether it was temperament, the way I was raised plays into this so that
• 17:22
  environmental like piece as well.
• 17:24
  But yeah, it doesn't feel good and we have to do a lot
• 17:27
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 17:28
  LRM: We do in the,
• 17:29
  Lauren: So the
• 17:29
  LRM: oh, sorry.
• 17:31
  I just get so
• 17:32
  excited.
• 17:32
  I get so excited.
• 17:33
  I'm like, I want to respond
• 17:34
  Lauren: No, I love it!
• 17:36
  I love it!
• 17:38
  So the mask helps us to stay perfect.
• 17:42
  So how do we I love because I love what you said earlier, and I
• 17:48
  want to remember how you said it.
• 17:50
  that, you're talking about that we mass when we're not congruent, right?
• 17:55
  When our insides aren't matching our outsides.
• 17:57
  And we can start having awareness of that when we maybe bring
• 18:01
  insight into I'm performing and the performance isn't necessary.
• 18:05
  That's, I think that's how you said it.
• 18:07
  And how do we like start taking that off and not doing that performing?
• 18:13
  LRM: The first thing is going to be clocking it.
• 18:15
  So there's got to be a degree of ownership of like, all right,
• 18:18
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 18:19
  LRM: I struggle with.
• 18:20
  And you know what I tend to be overly agreeable.
• 18:23
  I don't like that.
• 18:23
  I do that.
• 18:25
  And I'm saying it because I air more overly agreeable, like I'm
• 18:28
  so chill and like inside, like I'm like that fire person on inside
• 18:32
  out, it's just like raging at the
• 18:34
  It happens, there can be shame around that.
• 18:38
  Like I've worked with people that air more disagreeable and they're like, I
• 18:41
  feel like I'm just a horrible person.
• 18:43
  Like I feel like a horrible
• 18:44
  Yeah, you might be more blunt.
• 18:46
  You might call things as it is, but there's a difference between.
• 18:50
  Being blunt and connected and being blunt to push people away.
• 18:54
  So the first thing you have to do is clock it.
• 18:57
  And then from there.
• 18:59
  So if you're disagreeable, your job is not to become overly agreeable
• 19:04
  like that, because that's just a, I think we do that too much.
• 19:08
  We want to be perfect at changing.
• 19:11
  So if you're disagreeable, you
• 19:12
  Lauren: Mm
• 19:13
  LRM: to things and then the resentment builds.
• 19:15
  And then my overly agreeable people will start like setting
• 19:18
  so many boundaries and it's no.
• 19:22
  you want to do is ask your if you're doing it, to get curious on the back end.
• 19:28
  So you have to have a, an understanding as to what and what things are maybe
• 19:32
  prompting that and also what you're wanting out of those relationships.
• 19:37
  So you have to start defining things.
• 19:39
  And then from there you can think about your options.
• 19:42
  Or how you, in an ro we call it socially signal, like how
• 19:46
  you're more expressive to others.
• 19:48
  And that is gonna take trial and error.
• 19:51
  I know in, in RO we like practice conversations.
• 19:54
  We do role play of like, how are you gonna tell your boss
• 19:57
  that you're taking vacation?
• 19:59
  How are you gonna tell this person that what they said hurt your feelings and
• 20:02
  you're sorry that you snapped back, but you really do care about them.
• 20:07
  It's a, it does take like a degree of rehearsal.
• 20:10
  In that sense, when it comes to the social signaling piece, what's going
• 20:14
  to help your nervous system with that is exposing yourself to novelty, out of
• 20:20
  routine, trying some things that are new.
• 20:24
  I've done like an RO class.
• 20:25
  I've told people to wear the watch on their opposite wrist and it's
• 20:29
  because it's physically Uncomfortable.
• 20:32
  And so the idea is like warming your nervous system up with some of these
• 20:36
  like small changes, and then you'll be able to sit in that discomfort
• 20:41
  when you're confronting somebody or being more vulnerable with someone.
• 20:47
  Lauren: I love that.
• 20:49
  That's good.
• 20:51
  Laura: Yeah.
• 20:51
  And that's what allows us to make the change, right?
• 20:54
  Because I know that as therapists, and I know that the three of us
• 20:58
  have been doing it for a while now.
• 21:00
  And we know that asking someone to make a change for the sake of making
• 21:04
  a change isn't super effective.
• 21:06
  Like they have to understand what their why is.
• 21:09
  And so full circle, it's okay, what Why are we even challenging the mask
• 21:15
  that pops up with perfectionism?
• 21:17
  It's so that we can live in connection with other people.
• 21:20
  And I think even in my own therapy journey, things that I've done that
• 21:24
  Been really hard understanding why I'm doing the thing is really fruitful.
• 21:30
  And if I don't feel like doing it, it's a good reminder to have okay,
• 21:33
  there's a reason that we set this goal.
• 21:34
  There's a reason that we're doing this we all need community.
• 21:38
  We need connection.
• 21:39
  We need belonging acceptance, all the things that are so
• 21:42
  life giving for us as humans.
• 21:44
  LRM: A shift in environment can do wonders.
• 21:47
  A question that I bring up a lot is are you putting effort into
• 21:51
  people that you actually don't like?
• 21:54
  Are you putting effort into things that really aren't aligned?
• 21:59
  And we all have our reasons.
• 22:00
  It's like when people stick with a certain major because they feel like
• 22:03
  that's what they should be doing.
• 22:04
  Or they stick around in a specific church when they know there's one
• 22:08
  that's more more aligned with them.
• 22:11
  I think we sometimes go into all or nothing or like the
• 22:15
  idea like that we can't U turn.
• 22:18
  You can pivot, you can shift, you can change.
• 22:20
  It just may not have to be as drastic as you think.
• 22:23
  And you're right.
• 22:25
  You can't make a change just for changes sake.
• 22:26
  There's.
• 22:27
  There's gotta be a carrot at the end of that, or else you just
• 22:31
  keep doing what you're doing.
• 22:32
  If your perfectionism is not messing your life up and you
• 22:36
  feel connected, then do you.
• 22:38
  Please, don't waste your energy on that.
• 22:44
  Laura: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Or maybe sometimes people don't realize, maybe it is messing their life up or they
• 22:49
  don't realize that the root of that is perfectionism or unrealistic expectations
• 22:54
  of self, capital S, or other people.
• 22:57
  And so then they come to therapy like, Oh my gosh, I have all these
• 23:00
  problems in my life and help me.
• 23:03
  after some sessions we're like ding you may have you may be a perfectionist
• 23:08
  and then once we know what it is, then we can like work on it So
• 23:13
  LRM: Control is a really powerful thing.
• 23:17
  Lauren: Mm
• 23:18
  LRM: some of us feel like we don't have any control of our lives.
• 23:20
  Some of us know we have a lot of control because we've curated our life that way.
• 23:26
  And it's really exhausting.
• 23:30
  If you're the only
• 23:31
  person driving the car on a road trip, you're going to get tired.
• 23:39
  Laura: Yeah, that's a beautiful picture of what perfectionism is.
• 23:45
  Lauren, thank you for your time, you're just, ugh, you're such an amazing
• 23:49
  person and friend and colleague and I love how you talk about this topic.
• 23:55
  I feel like I have gleaned new ways of saying things from you.
• 24:00
  I like learning from other therapists and thank you for your time today.
• 24:03
  This has been so much fun
• 24:05
  Lauren: It has to be fun.
• 24:06
  Ahaha.
• 24:09
  Ahaha.
• 24:12
  Laura: too.
• 24:12
  So as I know that we briefed you before we started recording, but we close
• 24:16
  with an affirmation and with homework.
• 24:19
  You are welcome to provide one or both of those.
• 24:23
  And then as we close to you we'll share with our listeners how they can.
• 24:26
  you and all of the goodies that you have to offer.
• 24:28
  So would you like to close with affirmation or
• 24:32
  LRM: my gosh.
• 24:32
  Yeah, because this is like a jam.
• 24:35
  So like with the affirmations, I always like the idea you can always quit,
• 24:42
  Laura: I love
• 24:42
  Lauren: Love that.
• 24:43
  LRM: I, give myself permission to quit
• 24:47
  Lauren: That's
• 24:47
  LRM: because
• 24:47
  Mama didn't raise no quitter, but she's going to learn to be a quitter.
• 24:50
  And then,
• 24:52
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 24:52
  LRM: homework.
• 24:54
  Oh my God.
• 24:56
  Lauren: Yeah.
• 24:57
  Heh.
• 24:58
  LRM: I would assign people to sit down and just ask themselves, what do they want?
• 25:07
  And just see what comes up.
• 25:10
  No direction, just open ended.
• 25:12
  What do I actually want?
• 25:14
  Because for some people, like even I just felt it in my chest.
• 25:18
  It's a very uncomfortable thing.
• 25:20
  And a lot of times we don't know because we rely on the guidance.
• 25:25
  Like, even at the start of the podcast, they're like, what
• 25:27
  do you want to talk about?
• 25:28
  And my immediate thought was what do you want to talk about?
• 25:30
  Tell me what to say that I'm the best podcast host or podcast guest ever, and so
• 25:38
  that idea of really bringing that question into play of what do I really want?
• 25:44
  And recognizing that some of that stuff, if it's at the top, everything can't be
• 25:51
  at the top, but that's for future editing.
• 25:54
  So it's If you are a person that tends to, their mind goes blank, sit
• 25:59
  with that question it might just be I want a hug, but those are, but those
• 26:05
  Laura: Yeah, and I have thoughts even about the homework because I'm
• 26:09
  like, ooh Is this what you want or what your perfectionism wants, but
• 26:13
  I know you left it open and then so
• 26:15
  LRM: But that's the thing with perfectionist is that we tend
• 26:17
  to edit before we express.
• 26:21
  And so the idea is to have that like unedited space because you can always
• 26:26
  go back, you can cross things out, you can always quit and you put that.
• 26:32
  Lauren: Heh.
• 26:35
  Laura: love both the homework and the affirmation.
• 26:36
  Thank you so much for being here today Okay, so tell us all the things about you
• 26:41
  I Both as a therapist and I know you've got some amazing new business ventures.
• 26:46
  So we'd love
• 26:47
  LRM: So I see my current clients in practice, I'm novel counseling and
• 26:51
  Franklin, I'm not taking anybody new right now because I'm spending a lot of
• 26:56
  my energy with the nine to kind planner.
• 26:58
  So the nine to kind planner, it's a digital and paper planner.
• 27:02
  And it's meant to be for perfectionists and people pleasers or overthinkers
• 27:07
  or overdoers as I say it, um, but it's basically just it is like a planner and
• 27:12
  a journal all in one and it's undated because it needs to go with your life.
• 27:18
  And I've really just been like sitting on the concept of a lived in life.
• 27:23
  I think because I've been using the planner for almost my planner for almost
• 27:27
  a year now, and it's got dirt all over it.
• 27:29
  It's got scribbles and and that, but that's a planner that has lived some life.
• 27:34
  So that's like what the
• 27:35
  About.
• 27:35
  It has therapy worksheets.
• 27:37
  It has self care indexes so that you have inspiration weekly affirmations,
• 27:42
  weekly reminders to do self care.
• 27:45
  And it's a beautiful layout.
• 27:47
  I love it when people say that the planner is beautiful because
• 27:49
  my inner perfectionist is yes, it is absolutely gorgeous.
• 27:53
  But that's my little baby, so nine to kind.
• 27:56
  com if you want to get one and there's also a really great
• 28:00
  daily planning notepad too.
• 28:02
  And that's become a favorite also for me.
• 28:08
  Laura: Thank you so much for your time today.
• 28:10
  It's been so good chatting with you and thank you guys for being here
• 28:13
  on the becoming anchored podcast.
• 28:15
  We'll see you next time.
• 28:16
  Take care.