Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / Michelle DeCola | Moving Forward After Grief

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Michelle DeCola | Moving Forward After Grief · Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell

• speaker-0: Welcome everybody. You're listening to Through the Shit. I'm your host, Jen McDowell. This is part two of a two-part conversation with licensed psychotherapist Michelle DeCola. If you haven't listened to part one yet, that's okay. You can listen to these two episodes in either order. They're both great conversations on their own, but I think they're even better when you experience them together. In part one, Michelle and I unpacked what grief really is and why we're so uncomfortable with it. We also talk about how we can end up using things like achievement or perfectionism or even staying stuck in familiar patterns to protect ourselves from difficult emotions. In part two, we take the conversation a step further. We talk about questions so many of us have asked ourselves. Why can't I just move on? We explore how to tell the difference between giving ourselves space to grieve and being stuck in it, and how shame and self-blame can make that even harder. Michelle and I also get really practical about something else. How to show up for the people we love when they're grieving. What do you say to them? What do you do? And what if sometimes the most helpful thing you can offer isn't a solution, but simply your presence? Ultimately, this conversation is about learning to meet grief with compassion, curiosity, and trust, and remembering that even when it doesn't feel like it, it won't always hurt this much. So here's part two of my conversation with Michelle. I hope you enjoy. Welcome, I'm Jen McDowell, and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. And every episode we'll hear a new story of loss, hope, and resilience, and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your badass self, or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired, and welcome. To the shit. You've brought in a couple of concepts here that I want to talk about. And so I'm not sure which direction we should go at this point, but it's this idea of family of origin and those messages that we learn in childhood and gender. ⁓ so let's maybe start with like ⁓ talk about the connection that you see between those two, and maybe that'll speaker-1: Yeah. A lot of messages are just sent to us. Yes, the family of origin is a really important one. ⁓ you know, I was raised with an a ⁓ Italian father and and a ⁓ mother who came from a German family. And so culturally, there's just certain cultures ⁓ that that are in that culture. crying and yelling and and getting upset is okay and that's just some of the the more Latin cultures that get the you know, there's more expressive that's just kind of that culture. And there's more cultures that are like don't talk about it. Push it away. speaker-0: I d I don't know what my my my background is, but that was the model that was in my family. Yeah. speaker-1: And I do think in our country, that is more. It it really is. There's there's different parts of the world that honor grief, that have grief rituals that that that allow it, that go grief can go on for days when someone dies and the and the ceremonies. There are just so many cultures. And our culture is really uncomfortable with sitting with. with pain and with grief. So so that those messages get sent. ⁓ and it's and it's really hard when you start realizing like I I wanna be able to access my emotions when we came from a family, a culture, or especially, you know, men in general. Like it's not their culture to Cry together, to show that the those emotions together. And they're learning now. And there's really a lot of men's groups that are really helping men that haven't been raised that way. Like it's really okay to come together in our in our grief and our sadness and support each other. So so we're making some progress. And, you know. Therapy doesn't have such a stigma now that it did, you know, 20 something, you know, years ago. It's it and I think COVID actually helped with that. You know, people were really scared. And it was an unprecedented thing that had happened. And it's like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm I have so much anxiety, sadness, and anxiety. I'm gonna go to therapy. And I I mean, that's a silver lining of COVID. And it's it and so so people can talk about. having therapists and it's there's not as big a stigma. Maybe in different parts of our country there is, but but really there's ⁓ just a a a more acceptance of, you know, it's okay to seek out someone to work with to kind of understand yourself and and understand how to be with these emotions. Wow that that we didn't learn how to be with from our own family of origin. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean ⁓ I I feel like I was a bit ahead of the curve on that because like I was well established in therapy and my life was starting to unravel when COVID happened. And so I you know was was doing that because the emotions were so big at that point that I I I couldn't not deal with them. and I think the collective trauma of the the pandemic just sort of forced everybody to have all of their feelings. out in the open and they couldn't not deal with them because that was a scary and uncertain and dangerous and ⁓ frustrating and limiting. Yeah. speaker-1: It the grief that actually went with ⁓ the pandemic. I mean, it was like people were having to quit their jobs and do their jobs in their home and manage their kids and then just like the overwhelm of how do we wake up in the morning and, you know, like go forward with trying to make our living and take care of our kids and kindergartners are home from school. sitting on computers and like, ⁓ that's their kindergarten. I mean, and so that was a loss for a lot of people. That was a that was a that was a big loss. And so in and again, it's like honoring that when, you know, really unexpected tragic things happen, we're honoring it as losses. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and I think you're bringing up something that is important to be to say out loud is that grief doesn't look any specific way. And it's not necessarily death. It's loss, like loss of a job, loss of a pregnancy, loss of a lived experience, or loss of a dream. So thinking about grief more broadly than death is really important. speaker-1: Yes, it's important. And as we honor that we need to think about grief in all I mean, again, there's there's really huge grief, which is a loss of a child, for example, is probably the biggest amount of grief that anybody will ever go through. ⁓ and also heartbreak, the loss of a relationship, right? Because again we're separated and there was love there and and and and so it's like ⁓ my heart is broken. I have lost a person I love. I've lost a relationship that, you know, I thought was gonna go on forever. And I think those are those are really big losses. But yes, there's many, many losses and Sometimes we even have shame for having our grief around losses. I should be able to to deal with this. ⁓ it's j I lost a job and I'm really feeling stuck, or I lost a friendship. and You know, loss is ⁓ the degree of loss is also the degree of like ⁓ you know, a love. Like, wow, I love that person and we lost a relationship or I really loved who I was in this role in this in in this in this job. And it's and it's really really understanding there has to be language around and acceptance around this because we can connect. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: better in our relationships when we all start honoring our grief because it's really making space for the emotional presence of knowing like the more we allow ourselves to feel, the more we can sit with others and be with them with their pain. And it's just like people don't know what to say sometimes. When ⁓ when someone like especially when someone has lost a child or or or someone who wasn't at the end of their life, you know, a stage of life and ready to die. You can lose a parent or l early. But if you I think learning how to talk about it and be with someone and I ⁓ there's a book that someone wrote ⁓ called Putting It Into Words because You know, he said in the book, the author says, I really felt uncomfortable when people would ⁓ come up to me and the author he lost two of his children in a tragic car accident. ⁓ and people would say, ⁓ there are no words. And that you know, that was a sentiment that someone could say to the person who lost, but he said, What that does to a griever is it makes them feel like now I have to talk. You just said there are no words and now you're leaving it to me, the person grieving, to fill this space with words. So I think it's a really important speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: when we make space for grief, then we know what we can say and what we can offer to others who are going through a a a tragic death or a a a death of a of a child to be able just to show up and really just say, I'm sorry that you lost your beautiful child. And then then it's what you're offering is speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You are not alone. That's what I can offer you. When I say, I'm so sorry you lost your child. Mm-hmm. I'm so sorry you lost your spouse. It's like that's what we're offering. You're not alone in your grief. I I'm I'm by your side. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I think that's re a really valuable takeaway for listeners here because I remember, you know, grief is universal, but it also has the capability of disconnecting us. Because I think because of this taboo, this inability to be with other people in their grief, people tend to sort of get distance because they don't know what to say. ⁓ And then they say, like, gee, it's been three months and I haven't reached out and I don't know what to say. And so now I'm not really not going to reach out and I had a lot of people tell me, like, I didn't know what to say, so I haven't been reaching out, but I think about you all of the time. And meanwhile, I'm sitting here thinking I'm all alone. And so these words that you're giving to people who don't know what to say or do or how to sit with them. I'm sorry, you are not alone. I'm here for you. What else can they say? speaker-1: Well, I think it's really important if someone loses someone really important to them. And I mean it could be a child, it could be a parent, it could be a best friend, it could be a spouse. And it and it depending on how close you are in the relationship, that we ask about the person. We tell we say, What was your child's name? Tell me about that person. What was your partner's name? Or if you already know the partner's name, you say, Tell me what you miss the most. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: And what you're doing is you're honoring this is my beloved, this is someone close to me, and you're honoring them with me. You care about my relationship with them and you care about me. And I think if if people make it really easy, it's just like we're offering care to someone. And it's and we're so it's our own uncomfortability about being able to sit with someone in their pain that we we don't know what we want to say, so we say nothing, and then it's just leaving them alone. It's like, you know, tell me about tell me about them, tell me a story, tell me something funny, tell me tell me something that you just adored about this person, right? And and so it's saying I care about you and I care that that was an a really, really incredible important relationship to you. speaker-0: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, ⁓ because I think the p thing I hear from people is I don't want to make them feel worse. I know they're grieving, and so there's this belief that if we ask the grieving person to talk about their grief, it makes it worse. So what do you say to that? speaker-1: I I just think that's why we avoid it. speaker-0: Hmm. speaker-1: I don't want to make it worse. It's false. And if someone doesn't feel like talking about their beloved, they lost, they can just say, thank you for your sentiments. And I really don't feel like talking about it right now. And we're not giving the other person that chance. We're making up a choice for them. I know what's best. I won't talk about this because it'll make you uncomfortable. And it's like that's not even true at all. speaker-0: Mm. ⁓ I see this come up all the time in relationships, not even just in grief. And and we can have another podcast about that episode, but this idea of making a unilateral decision in a relationship that affects more than one person. I mean, I see it in the corporate context, I see it in friend relationships, I see it in family relationships, I see it intimate relationships. Yeah. speaker-1: I I I'm glad you brought that up because really if we don't know, we're allowed to put words to asking. You know. ⁓ if we don't know, we can say something like, Gosh, I'm not sure how comfortable you're talking about this. And I but but if you're comfortable, I I would just love to know about your loved one that that you lost. Like you know, what's their name? And and right and someone and we can ask people. And we can ask them what they need and we can ask them how can I support you the most right now? Right. And ⁓ I mean again it's very traditional to to bring food to people who are grieving because we we think, okay, they're they're grieving, they don't have time, whatever, but we don't just assume and sometimes someone doesn't want us to stop over to their house with a casserole. They might, right? So It's finding our way too and going back to finding the words is we can say I'd like to support you. I'm not sure what that looks like. What would be the best support for you? Or or you know, where if we just start with, I'm so sorry for your loss. That's it. We start there. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I call that sharing your narrative, right? Because there's all this stuff, like there's a dialogue happening in your head, like, God, I don't know what to say. I c I wanna convey that I care about them, but I don't want to make it worse. And so, you know, verbalizing that rather than guessing, because when we guess, we guess wrong, we make assumptions, we're filling in gaps and we d we take ourselves out of conversation and out of relationship when we make those assumptions. Yes. speaker-1: And we wanna be really careful not to have the griever be in the place of taking care of us because we don't know. ⁓ So if we're saying, I'm really sorry for your loss and I wanna show up for you, I when you know what you need, I'm here to listen or I'm here to to to to be here for you, whatever ways I can. ⁓ but sometimes even saying what do you need could make them feel overwhelmed. It's like, I don't know what I need, I've right. Like it's like really just offering like I'm here and I'll ⁓ I'll support you in the ways that feel supportive to you. I I I'm here. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So it's it doesn't have to be too complicated. And I I think it's hard and it depends on what kind of friendship you have. I mean, you can be kind of making talking to a stranger, a new acquaintance, and you talk about something. ⁓ do you have children? And then it's like something comes up and then all of a sudden you're like, I don't even know this person. And now what do I do? It's just we just start with, I'm so sorry. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I ⁓ one of the other things that I I've learned through my own experiences is this idea of would it be helpful? Like if you f have an idea of something and you know, I'm gonna drop off food, would it be helpful if I dropped something off? Or if you're listening to them and they're saying I'm so overwhelmed and the house is a mess, would it be helpful if I came over and did some laundry or cleaned for you? ⁓ and starting that dialogue Mm-hmm. About what would be helpful. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it goes back to what you said earlier about when we stay curious with someone, then we're just saying, I care about you. I'm curious what would be helpful, right? I I'm here because I want to support you and I'm learning, right? And it I'm I'm learning about what you might need. I'm I'm I don't know and that's okay, but we're we're and that's that is just so important in our relationships. There's there's no harm in being curious unless we're letting our curious questions override what someone's s safety or or comfortability is, but it's like I'm I'm learning new. Right. And it it and that does take time and questions and sometimes you know, sometimes Statements are more powerful than questions. Because questions make the other person have to come up with it. But if you say, I was thinking it could be helpful to drop off food or help with anything in your house, how would how would that be for you? Or what do you think or something? But it's really sometimes when we are asking questions it puts the other person sometimes it can put ⁓ on the defense or it can make ⁓ uncomfortable. And and sometimes statements are are more powerful than questions. speaker-0: Yeah. And you know, I I think it it as I'm listening to you talk about this, it's also bringing it back to what we're where we started around like th sitting with people is hard and there's taboo around grief. And a lot of times the answer to how can I help you is sit with me. A lot of people want to do something because they feel like they can do and just sort of like I'm gonna bring this casserole and then go on my merry way. ⁓ because it keeps me distanced from the grief that you're experiencing w ⁓ but a lot of times that's not necessarily the most valuable thing. speaker-1: Yes. And I just think ⁓ the felt presence of someone even just sitting by your side and and sometimes there's not something to say, but it's like, okay, you're with me. I'm not alone. And it's okay if we're not talking. speaker-0: Hm. Yeah. speaker-1: And that's something we're uncomfortable with as humans. Like, ⁓ there's silence. But it's learning how to be with the silence and and and and really when you think about a felt presence, I I'm feeling someone's presence. That is comforting. They don't have to say so much. You're here with me. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Right. And I I I feel that you're here with me. And and sometimes we don't need words to to feel that someone's here with us. speaker-0: There's something else that you said that I want to go back to. ⁓ and it was when we were talking about grief not looking a certain way and grief really being about loss, loss of a relationship, loss of identity. ⁓ and one of the questions that, you know, I hear a lot from my coaching clients is why can't I just move on? You know, they might be facing, you know, they're like, I've gone through hard things before and like this this is different. Why can't I just move on? So I'm curious, like. What's the answer to that? speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think we get impatient with sitting with the unknown and that's pretty human. And why can't I move on is really a judgment. We're making a judgment and and and people ask this all the time in in relationships in their relationship, is that good or bad? Is that good or bad? And it's like What if we don't judge it good or bad? And so what we've learned as a culture is we're constantly judging to feel safe. Is it good or bad? Am I safe or not safe? And if we can get out of our judging mind, our mind that wants to go to judge it good or bad, right or wrong, ⁓ and get back into. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: you know, our felt sense like, ⁓ I should be over this is like I'm judging this is too long. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: There's some judgment. Shouldn't I be over this? Right. And and and grief, people grieve and have their deep sense of grief at ⁓ and different things happen in the phases, and there's a lot of different stages of grief have been taught. And it's like they come and they go. And and so I would just say in to anyone, and with your coaching, you know, clients or just anybody watching this, it's like, allowing ourselves to notice, am I judging myself? And is that a way to take me away from my pain? Cause it actually is. This is going on too long. And now if I'm judging myself that it's wrong, I'm taking myself away from just feeling like I'm still sad. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And and emotions will come and they'll go. And so that sadness, you know, there's gonna be like, ⁓ today I feel lighter, or I noticed I was laughing and I was really enjoying myself and I didn't think about the loss. And it's really allowing ourselves to say, this is there's no one path, and I'm not gonna judge myself when I feel deep sadness or I'm still grieving. a loss or a a huge breakup that happened a year ago. It's like, yep, that that's gonna come up. So I think really just knowing like if I'm if any emotion is okay and if we're allowing any emotion, those emotions are gonna come and they're gonna go. And the acceptance of that is we are all human and we will all go through loss and suffering. Mm-hmm. There's there's no way around it. It speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And that acceptance piece helps us honor our grief and know, like, okay, there's not a way around grief and loss. So we're not gonna judge ourselves. And we can get curious about it if it's like, wow, this is kind of going on way past you know what it warrants, then we can get curious about maybe. Am I hanging on and am I am I am stuck in my thoughts that are keeping me stuck? Which that can happen. So getting curious about it, if we're really assessing like, ⁓ yes, I want to move forward after my divorce or after my breakup and it seems like I'm stuck and holding myself back, then I can get curious about why that might be or what might be happening. speaker-0: Yeah, so I think y y you've touched on something that feels especially relevant to me because I'm also I just crossed the five year anniversary mark for the unexpected death of my mom. And so ⁓ you know, that day came, I knew it was coming. You know, I woke up not feeling great that day and was like, why do I not feel great? And as the day went on, I was trying to work and get stuff done and then and then I finally got to the point where it's like, ⁓ yeah, this is probably why I feel like shit today. And when I stepped away from trying to power through it and did something else to sort of work through that emotion, it went away and I ended the day feeling better. So ⁓ speaker-1: That's a it I think that's so important that you just notice that because that's an awareness that you had. You know, ⁓ I I'm I wanna honor, you know, I wanna come back to honoring this five year anniversary and that's big and I and and that's a big loss for you, Jen. And and so it's noticing Sometimes our body is holding something that hasn't really connected. And and we really, really have to pay attention to noticing what could be being stored in our body that our mind doesn't want to connect to. So so I I'm really glad that you brought that up because that happens all the time. That that our body knows something that that it is our mind is protecting us from. So so you're kind of Coming to like, ⁓ okay, yeah. That's what I was feeling. speaker-0: And think the question that I have in in response to that is, so how do you know the difference as a clinician between someone who is getting impatient and someone who is really stuck in in and whose body is still holding on onto something? Like how do you tell the difference? speaker-1: I think that's knowing the person, you know, in that relationship a little bit. But ⁓ if you don't, might be a new person, you know, that you're working with in therapy. But ⁓ I think the best way to to do that as over on my side is just to to be with that person and notice it and observe it and reflect that back. You know, like tell me more about. how long this is going or tell me more and then really gently maybe introducing like in a question or just getting curious together. Like, could you be holding on to something? And sometimes we use grief to protect ourselves. Like if we stay stuck in it, then we don't have to to to face kind of the unknown or some of the anxiety that goes with like, well, how do I get back there? And you kind of think about a divorce. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And at some point we have to grieve and get ourselves ready to explore the possibility of a new relationship. Yeah. And that's scary. So we might stay stuck because it might be really scary to get ourselves out there again. The same with a new job or it or a lot of things. So so again, if we bring and this is really important, self-compassion. Because self-compassion means I have, I don't want to suffer. You know, compassion for others is I don't want to suffer. So so we're operating first with compassion for ourselves. Like this has been really hard. This is painful. And then we get curious. So so those two things are really ongoing practices of whenever I'm suffering, if I feel scared, if I feel sad, if I feel angry, those are those are difficult emotions. So we want to allow it without judgment. Well I shouldn't be sad. I shouldn't be angry. Well anger Anger tells us something. Something felt unfair and unjust. So it's so it's coming in with compassion when we have some of these really difficult emotions. And then we started out this one with trust, like trusting like I'm gonna be okay. So any emotion is okay. I'm learning how to sit with it. I'm learning how to bring compassion to myself. And I will. Find my way and I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I trust that I will find my way. I trust myself. speaker-0: Yeah. And and that was hard for me, to learn how to trust myself again when I was going through my parade of horribles. And so I think, you know, for me it was a a lot of things over a series of years where I got to trust myself, but it but it all started with taking small steps. So again, what do you say to someone who's trying to rebuild that trust with himself? speaker-1: Well, I just I really like what you said. You you said I started taking small steps. And the small steps are important. And I think it's like again, if we're not judging ourselves and and we just well, I'm not judging this good or bad, or I'm not judging the amount of time I have compassion for my losses. It's hard and Taking steps means I start taking a little bit of risk. And I'm and as I take risk, like that might be starting a new relationship after being really, really hurt relationship. It's like, okay, if I trust myself, I'm going to honor that I have been hurt, but also honor that I have a desire to be in a relationship again. To to and so I'm gonna take steps. that feel comfortable to me, whether that's starting a new job, a new relationship, ⁓ going back to grad school, anything where we're saying, I'm gonna support myself, even if I notice I feel some anxiety or fear about putting myself out there, I'm little by little supporting myself to know that I can, I can do this again. speaker-0: Yeah. And and I think you're touching on something implicitly that I want to say explicitly, which is you don't necessarily have to put yourself out there in the scariest way to start, right? You don't have to dive straight into the deepest. You can try it with a relationship that's safe. You can try it with something else that feels a little bit more manageable from a risk standpoint. speaker-1: That's important too, that we don't just say, well, here I go, and I'm gonna throw myself into something that might be right. Like that's knowing ourselves. So that that piece is important. It's like that would be a huge jump to make an early commitment in a relationship after I'm just getting through, right? So I'm gonna take it in steps. I'm gonna take it in steps and digestible pieces and speaker-0: ⁓ huh. Yeah. speaker-1: And that's how I build my trust is that I don't push myself to take on too too much of a risk, but I am taking some risk. speaker-0: Yeah. I see that with clients all the time. I mean, they wanna I don't they're over, you know, on one side and they wanna do some big drastic thing and they think they have to make that leap and what in one jump. And it's like no, you can chart this out in a couple of steps or more. ⁓ you don't have to make a hard pivot or a U turn. You can sort of chart the course more gradually. Yeah, it's like a tend to use a lot of hiking metaphors 'cause I've ⁓ hiked a lot. So speaker-1: That's exactly right. That that seems like it works. speaker-0: This is your scenic outlook, right? You take the long way. ⁓ okay, so we've talked about ⁓ you know, why is it so hard to get over grief sometimes? But I I think the other thing that I'm curious about is, you know, some people seem to just really bounce back from setbacks and loss really fast. And other people are really sort of stuck in it. So why do some people Seem, I'm going to use that word 'cause perception is not necessarily true, but why do some people seem to bounce back from grief or loss more easily than others? speaker-1: You know, I I I don't know if there's one reason, but the the first reason that comes to to my mind is ⁓ that a lot of times in our our grief and loss we we blame ourselves and wonder if we could have s done something different, whether it's a loss of a job, a loss of a relationship, ⁓ maybe something traumatic ha happened in a death. ⁓ Could we have done something different? And then when we start questioning ourselves, you know, shame comes in. Like I didn't do, I didn't do it right. It was my fault. And that can prolong the intensity of our grief and staying stuck is when we when we come up with, you know, shame. You know, you think about a divorce and and and being left in a marriage, you know, the person that was left is. can just totally blame themselves. I I wasn't a good enough spouse. I didn't I didn't give the person what they needed. I wish I if I if I had only done it this way, if I'd only done this. So that's what what keeps us stuck sometimes is our shame and blame and our judgment of somehow we failed. And then it's a deeper sense of of of loss and it it really does keep us from speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: moving forward because we all are imperfect and and any kind of loss, even small loss or friendships leaving, we can just say, ⁓ gosh, what did I do? What did I do? Well how come I how come I wasn't good enough? And you know, with big losses like that, ⁓ that that happens and and it does keep us stuck from moving forward to to go on with our lives again and and create the happiness that we want to create because somehow We feel like we're not deserving. We messed it up. speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so it's generally there's something underlying it, whether it's trauma or shame or blame, which kind of tr goes back into some of those other maladaptive coping strategies that we talked about earlier in terms of the perfectionism or the independence or the isolation. Like I I I screwed something up and this is all my fault. And ⁓ and it kind of is this perpetual downward spiral pattern that we find ourselves stuck in. speaker-1: Yes. And somewhere it supports our narrative is see, I'm not good enough. I'm not deserving. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And that's a big one to be like, Yes, that that's we're the more we come back to shame or blame, the more we're gonna stay stuck. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean this feels like a good place to start winding some things down. And I'm just kind of reflecting on some of the things that I'm taking away from our conversation. It's this idea around some of the maladaptive strategies that we use to distance ourselves from our grief. And the example that's really standing out for me is this like staying in it in something too long, staying in a job too long. ⁓ Those those things that we do to protect ourselves from this fear, ⁓ to get unstuck, it's important to start allowing your difficult emotions. And really, it's this idea of compassion, curiosity, allowing and trusting yourself. ⁓ and I think the other thing that I'm really walking away with is this idea of putting things into words. And that's important not only for the person who's going through the grief. But the people who are surrounding them. And we talk about all these ways that people can support their loved ones. I'm here with you, whether in words or presence, expressing your care, talking about you know this was an important loss or relationship or things, saying simply just saying I'm sorry, you are not alone. What else would you what else feels unsaid to to complete this? speaker-1: I think you you've got so many you got it all. ⁓ but I I I'm gonna stress it again. It's it's just come showing up with compassion for the other person's pain. Yes, for both, right? So who that so it's self-compassion when we're in our own pain. And when we want to be with someone else, it's compassion for their pain. And speaker-0: And yourself. speaker-1: What really helps us do this is the acceptance of of all humans are going to go through loss and suffering. So so we're in acceptance of, yes, this happens, and it's really, really hard. And the hope that we're hanging on to is it it's not always going to be this painful. And we're doing that for ourselves and we're showing up for others, knowing like they're in the throes of this. grief and that's okay, or I'm in the throes of this huge loss and this grief, and I'm trusting the process of allowing myself to grieve that I will move forward in a way that I'm going ahead and it's not always gonna be this painful. And I trust that. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And that dovetails back with something you said earlier, and I'm restating in my own words, is this idea of like happiness can't exist in a vacuum and the the the sadness and the grief are not always going to be that painful. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. Yes. And that's kind of one of the Buddhist teachings. That the if we can just kind of say suffering is gonna happen to to all of us, th th that we're accepting of this, but it's it's going to come and it's gonna go, right? And it's just really that acceptance and and and and I guess I wanna use the word surrendering to that's how it is. That is how it is. And we're learning to be accepting of that. And and to be with it when it happens. speaker-0: Hmm. Well, ⁓ I can't put it into any better words than the Buddhist philosophy than that. ⁓ Michelle, thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation. Listeners, thanks for listening and we'll see you on the flip side. That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at through the shitpodcast at gmail.com or go to our website at throughthe shit.com. I'll see you on the flip side.