Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Self-Compassion and DBT: How New Treatment Approaches Transform BPD Recovery with Amanda Smith

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Self-Compassion and DBT: How New Treatment Approaches Transform BPD Recovery with Amanda Smith · It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People

• 0:05
  Megan Hunter: Welcome to All Your Calls from True Story FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict. I'm Megan Hunter, and as you know, I'm usually here with my cohost, Bill Eddy, who at this point would say, hi, everybody. But he is working today somewhere else and cannot record with us. So we are the co founders of the High Conflict Institute and conflictinfluencer.com, where we focus on training for professionals and helping people with high conflict in their personal lives. So welcome back to the podcast, very first episode of the new year.
• 0:51
  Happy New Year, January 2026. So today, we are joined by a very special guest, a good friend, a colleague, and consummate professional, Amanda Smith. So thrilled to have you here, Amanda.
• 1:07
  Amanda Smith: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:12
  Megan Hunter: Of course. We'd have you every week if we could. So you have a brand new book. We're gonna talk all about that today. For background, I know our listeners have met you before, but we probably have a lot of new listeners.
• 1:25
  So if you wouldn't mind just giving a little bit of background, I I wanna say first that, you know, congratulations on your new book. It's amazing. We've been so privileged at unhooked books to publish two of your amazing publications, the dialectical behavior therapy wellness planner and the borderline personality disorder wellness planner for families, which I give all my copies away, you know, randomly, so I didn't even have one of those today. But now you've written a new book, the self compassion workbook for dialectical behavior therapy skills to find self forgiveness and, healing and self love with borderline personality disorder, which just came out in November 2025. So, with that, why don't you give us and our listeners a little bit of background about you?
• 2:14
  Amanda Smith: I am someone who's been working with individuals with a diagnosis of BPD and their families. It's now almost going on it's nineteen years. Wow. So it's been a long time of doing this work, working with people, seeing having lots and lots of beautiful stories of lives changed and people receiving healing, doing their doing the work that they need to do in order to get better. So it's been a privilege to do this work, first of all, with a nonprofit organization that I created way back in twenty o seven and now as a licensed clinical social worker in Texas.
• 3:01
  So working directly with individuals with a diagnosis of BPD. So I'm foremost a DBT therapist. So this is something I'm talking about almost every single day. I am working with people, I'm teaching them DBT skills, I'm helping them to, in Marsha Linehan's words, create a life worth living. So this is something I really, really love doing and means a lot to me.
• 3:30
  So that's kind of it in a nutshell.
• 3:34
  Megan Hunter: Nice. And listen. You know, we've known each other now for for a decade or more at least. I, you know, refer people to you a lot, and I think of you when I when I think of BPD, I'm like, oh, I wish I could ask Amanda this. Alright?
• 3:49
  So we need to duplicate you somehow or clone you somehow. We need a lot more of you because it seems you know, just listening to what you're saying about helping people build lives that are worth or create lives that are worth living. Right? So so let's start there with why is it that the a person with a diagnosis of BPD needs to create this? Shouldn't we all want to create a life worth living?
• 4:15
  Why is it different for someone with that diagnosis?
• 4:18
  Amanda Smith: Absolutely. And I think the answer is yes. I think it's that idea of a life worth living is a worthy goal for people with a diagnosis, but also for family members, for friends, for for probably all of us. So yes to that as as a good life goal. And you're right.
• 4:38
  I think it's so much harder for a lot of people with a diagnosis or traits of BPD. We know that with the diagnosis often comes a lot of self sabotaging behaviors, sometimes self destructive behaviors that may include self harming behaviors, self injury, suicidal thinking, suicidal planning. So I think that it becomes more of a challenge when someone's inclination is again, I'm quoting Marsh Linehan. She is the creator of dialectical behavior therapy. But she talks about how people with a diagnosis sometimes make a bad situation worse.
• 5:24
  So things are already breaking down. Things are already happening. And then it seems like for a lot of people with a diagnosis, you know, like, okay. Let's make it worse. Let's make it worse.
• 5:37
  So we want people to do the exact opposite, and we want to equip them with skills and strategies and ideas so that they can move toward that ultimate goal of creating a life worth living.
• 5:51
  Megan Hunter: Yeah. It's it's not as intuitive perhaps as for someone without the diagnosis. It's just a harder path to get there, I suppose, and take some work just like a lot of other issues that people have in life. So what is it that, you know, twenty years ago, borderline personality disorder was, you know, seen as such a scary diagnosis? And I think it probably still is in a lot of respects both in the professional world and in the lay world for those that either have, you know, have the diagnosis or the the, you know, friend family members and friends around that person.
• 6:28
  But it seems like it's it's some of the stigma has disappeared, and maybe this is is recognized more as something that is recoverable from if you do the work. So how have you seen that transition and that progression over the last twenty years, if there is any in your view?
• 6:46
  Amanda Smith: Oh, I think there's been a huge shift. So, absolutely, I think over the past eighteen, nineteen, almost twenty years now, I have seen a huge shift in how people understand the diagnosis, how they are sometimes even embracing this diagnosis, with this idea of like, wow, this really explains what I've been experiencing or how I've been healing, feeling, or what I've been thinking over a long period of time. And I also think that the name borderline personality disorder continues to become or continues to be pretty problematic for a lot of different people. So we can think about, you know, the the pros and cons of calling this a personality disorder and what that might mean for some people that it may feel like, oh, well, you know, you're telling me that I've got this thing, and it's my fault, and I'm the problem. I'm the black sheep.
• 7:48
  Yes. Right. And but that's, of course, not what we're saying. When when someone has a diagnosis or, again, traits of BPD, we now have we have so much strong evidence to show that treatments like dialectical behavior therapy not only work, but they work really well. So someone could have the diagnosis at some point in their lives.
• 8:15
  And after some really hard work in therapy or treatment, they may no longer meet diagnostic criteria after a year, after two years, after three years. That's actually more common than not. Wow. Yeah. We want people to get have access to evidence based treatment and to be thinking about, yeah, DBT is a really tough treatment.
• 8:42
  It's challenging. It's very hard work. And at the end of the day, I I wouldn't be doing this work unless I had a lot of really amazing success stories. So I want for my clients to know that. I want the family members to know that.
• 9:00
  So, yes, there's a lot less stigma. And at the same time, I wanna recognize that stigma absolutely still exists. Sure. I also see a lot of self stigma. So maybe the the stigma or the invalidation isn't coming from other people.
• 9:17
  It's coming from the person. So that might be part of the diagnosis for many people is that idea of it's not me, it's other people. Because it's not me, I don't need to change. I don't need to do anything different. Other people, they have to change.
• 9:35
  They have to do things different. That that's something we absolutely see.
• 9:42
  Megan Hunter: That self awareness can be slow to come for sure. Right? So one of the things Bill and I talk about in our trainings is there's four forget about it. And one of the forget about it is forget about trying to get someone into a place of self awareness and insight by just saying, you know, look, do you do you realize you have a you know, I think you have borderline personality disorder. They're just going to be you know, any human's going to be resistant to being told they have a personality disorder if they discover it on their own by going to therapy or now they're, you know, reading online, reading books, things like that.
• 10:18
  That's one thing. But to try to lead someone down that path of self awareness yourself is is just not a good idea. But, yeah, I think this this whole area, I I I've heard so many people say they wish it had a different name and and people do call it things like emotion dysregulation disorder. What are some of the other terms that you've heard?
• 10:39
  Amanda Smith: Well, that's the one I hear most, and that's the one I like. I think it that's what it it's pretty self explanatory. I think it's I think it's a pretty non shaming name or description. So I I like that idea, and and I also realize that some people think, okay. Well, we're just we're we're calling something by a different name.
• 11:04
  We don't wanna we don't wanna make it prettier than it is. Right? Like, we're we're working with people who are really suffering. And because they're suffering, people around them are also often suffering. So so I think there's that balance between, hey.
• 11:22
  Maybe we call it something a little bit different to kind of for for lots of different reasons. And at the same time, we still wanna recognize that this is a pretty serious mental health diagnosis. So maybe it's both and.
• 11:38
  Megan Hunter: I heard someone recently say, well, I I thought it was something positive because it was borderline, meaning it was almost bad. Right. Oh, I like that. I like that. You're right.
• 11:49
  Heard that before. So, wow, interesting. So, yeah, I think we have to recognize the the pain and the struggle. And as you were talking, Amanda, I was picturing, you you know, like a pie chart and you have the the chart the pie represents the disorder. And within that chart, you have, you know, the person themselves.
• 12:10
  The I guess the pie chart represents the pain and suffering and struggle of BPD. And it's not just the person, it's their family, it's their spouse, it's maybe their kids, it's those around them and how it affects you know, impacts everyone. And there's there seems to be a a lack of awareness of the person in some who, about the impact that they have on others. Would you say that's pretty common, or is that am I off base there?
• 12:37
  Amanda Smith: I think that's pretty common. And and I also wanna recognize that there are exceptions. I sometimes meet with people, and they will almost immediately start talking about how a spouse is affected by their moods, by their behaviors, or, like you said, their children, or there might be a friend who's affected. So so I think, while it's true that that self awareness can be lacking for a lot of people, I also wanna recognize that for some people, they are very aware. You know?
• 13:12
  When I'm hurting, I know that I have a tendency to hurt other people. Terrific. Let's start there. Let's start talking about that. Let's start coming up with skills and ideas that you can use to help yourself the next time this happens.
• 13:29
  Megan Hunter: Interesting. So one of the criteria and the all the different little, you know, I guess, subs under each of those. So let's say self harm. Can every bit of those problem areas be addressed with DBT?
• 13:44
  Amanda Smith: From my perspective, the answer is yes. I think so. I think that I think that DBT as an evidence based treatment was created in part to address all of the symptoms that someone might experience with a diagnosis of BPD. Now I don't think that that means that DBT is a perfect treatment for everyone and works exactly the same way for everyone. But, again, for the most part, we know that, again, this is an evidence based treatment.
• 14:18
  There's a tremendous amount of research to show that this is highly effective for most people. And, of course, there will be exceptions. But but, yes, I think that DBT addresses the comprehensive nature of BPD, and it and it is also designed to address specific symptoms like self harming behaviors.
• 14:45
  Megan Hunter: So that's great to know, number one. I mean, it it really is. It's it's stunning. I'm wondering with the exceptions if those are perhaps because of co occurring disorders that still need to be treated in some way, whether that's with, medications because of a maybe a bipolar diagnosis or another personality disorder, would that be a cause of the exceptions?
• 15:10
  Amanda Smith: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And and I think it's also I I can't imagine one client over the past twelve years who has had just a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. So we can think about, okay.
• 15:28
  Is this borderline personality disorder and depression or anxiety or OCD or ADHD or borderline personality disorder and trauma? So so those are things that we absolutely wanna be paying attention to as well. And and we wanna be thinking about, okay, is there a place for some of the DBT skills to address some of these other problems? Or do we need be thinking about what other evidence based treatments do we have to address these problems and help the individual who's in front of us who's, again, who's really suffering a lot. Fascinating.
• 16:11
  I I would imagine,
• 16:12
  Megan Hunter: you know, what we've heard from from many is that there's some sense of relief when they finally when a person finally has a diagnosis. Like, I up to this point, it's been a mystery, and I don't know why I impact others around me so awful. Why, you know, why I I say things that I can't take back and they're very hurtful and why I you know, whatever fill in the blank there. There is some, you know, relief, but probably a little trepidation too about what do I do to to fix this? Is it even possible?
• 16:46
  And that's, I think, where, you know, what you've named your organization, your website, hope for BPD is just is brilliant because there is hope for this. And that is encouraging as Bill and I go out and do training for family law professionals and, you know, child protective services, who wear wherever we do training and we talk about any of this, it's exciting to be able to say, look. There's help for this. And here's some things you can do in the meantime even though you're not a treatment provider, but you are someone who's in this person's sphere and can have an impact in a positive way that some small things that you can do.
• 17:24
  Amanda Smith: I agree 100%. And in that way, family members and friends are in, you know, in this really beautiful position of being able to help. And you're right. That doesn't mean that a parent or a spouse can, you know, take on the role of therapist or coach or anything like that. But I absolutely agree that there's a pretty powerful place for family members and friends to be able to help someone who's suffering in this way.
• 17:55
  Megan Hunter: Now I wanna shift a bit into different age groups. I've been talking lately to quite a number of parents with teenagers who they're, you know, convinced have borderline personality disorder. So and this is, you know, in in Europe, in, The Middle East, in The US, Canada, so all over the place. I know in the in in the past, I think you had to be, what, 18 to have a diagnosis of BPD, and I could be wrong on that. Is that the case and or was that the case?
• 18:27
  And if so, is that still the case here and abroad?
• 18:30
  Amanda Smith: Sure. Well, I I think that there has been this idea that, oh, well, we have to wait and not diagnose someone until they're 18. When I'm working though with adolescents and young adults, one of the things that we usually talk about is how, you know, your eighteenth birthday wasn't this magical moment where, you know, everything was fine when you were 17, and then and then something happened overnight on your eighteenth birthday. So so, yes, we want to be cautious, and we don't want to say, you know, wow. This looks like borderline personality disorder.
• 19:11
  But I think it would also be incorrect to say that we don't see these symptoms come up in children and also adolescents. So, yes, we wanna we wanna be cautious. We don't want to give someone a diagnosis or a label until we really know. And at the same time, I I sometimes think, well, I maybe there's no reason to wait, you know, and say, okay. Well, we're gonna wait on DBT until this person turns 18.
• 19:46
  From my perspective, that's probably not a good idea.
• 19:51
  Megan Hunter: Yeah. So much harm can occur if you're waiting till 18 plus one day, right, to to start treatment. So many things can happen. And and I I see that happening now in some parts of the world where there's just not as much access to to treatment and the DBT wait lists are terribly long, you know, maybe six months or or a year or even longer. And you have someone with a an adolescent teenager who is just being, like, shuffled in and out of psychiatric hospitals.
• 20:23
  And it's just like a holding place, until, you know, the number of days expires that their insurance pays for them to be there or something like that. And they, you know, get a little rest and things, then they go back home and the same you know, nothing has been resolved internally. So the same issues persist, and they just keep going on and on. So in a situation like that, is there, are there things that parents can do or loved ones can do if they have a young person in their home that's that's can't get into treatment?
• 20:57
  Amanda Smith: Absolutely. So one of one of the things that I like to recommend for families who are in that situation is to, you know, take Marshall and Ahan's book, start going through it yourself, start finding a way to teach yourself. If there's truly no one who can help you through the process, there usually is. But but I wanna recognize that that family members may be in that position where it feels like, I don't I don't know if we should be doing this right now or I don't know who we should be reaching out to. Get the book.
• 21:31
  The book is accessible. The book is fairly easy to use. And I would encourage family members, start learning this DBT skills yourself. And then when your loved one is emotionally dysregulated, when they're having a rough day, when things are breaking down, that's gonna be your opportunity to say, you know, I've been reading about this treatment called dialectical behavior therapy, and I think that the skills are probably for all of us. Let's use a skill together.
• 22:08
  And we could think about ways in which, you know, parents can help children or parents can help adolescents to begin to use these skills. Certainly, couples can also use these skills and these ideas together. I love it when that happens. So if we can have someone else in the family or someone else in the friend group start learning these DBT skills, I think it's it's such a win win because you're laying the groundwork for this is an effective treatment. We know this is effective.
• 22:40
  We know it helps. And you can be that person in the family or in the relationship to take the lead and say, okay. Right now, let's bring out the book. Let's find a skill that we can use together over the next ten minutes or twenty minutes or an hour. Let's do this together.
• 23:00
  I and, again, I I have seen where even if the the person with the diagnosis isn't quite ready to go into treatment or to get any kind of help, just the idea of a family member coming along and saying, hey. I think that we need these skills, or I think our entire family needs these skills. Let's use this together, is something that feels very nonthreatening, nonshaming, very inviting, very validating. And I think, again, it can make a huge difference for for everyone.
• 23:37
  Megan Hunter: We're just gonna all get in that boat together. Right?
• 23:40
  Amanda Smith: Makes sense.
• 23:41
  Megan Hunter: I really do. I think so too. Because I think those who you know, if you have a loved one with with BPD, it's it's probably very difficult. You you you know that they're struggling and in pain, but you you don't really understand probably I don't think anyone from the outside can understand how difficult it is for that person to to, who already feels badly about themselves to think that other people are feeling badly about them, or that they they are impacting other people. So if we're all in this boat together, let's just do little DBT together right now.
• 24:19
  We'll both do it. Right? Or we'll all do it. So we're all in the boat together. Then it's just so less, confronting, so less judgmental, and I think the resistance and defensiveness will come down.
• 24:30
  I I would I think that's probably what, you experience with, what you're talking about. So interesting. Where do and we'll get onto the book right after this question. Where do boundaries and limits come into place? Because I think a lot of in in families where some BPD is present in some way, there seems to be a lot of chaos.
• 24:52
  Let's say someone they there's a break for a while, and then they're all back together again. And in the meantime, those without BPD are are surrounding this person are saying, look. We've gotta get some structure here, and we have to have some rules. Gotta get some rules. And so when this person comes back into the environment, they're met with rules.
• 25:12
  Now is that okay, or should that come later?
• 25:16
  Amanda Smith: I have a thought that more often than not, that should probably come later. I think it can be very problematic for people to say, okay, now we know what we're dealing with. And maybe that person has read a book or they got some, well meaning well meaning advice from a friend or a therapist who said, oh, well, you know, if if this person has a diagnosis of BPD, you need to have lots of boundaries. At any given moment, you need lots of boundaries. So the person thinks, oh, okay.
• 25:52
  Well, I'm getting this advice. I'm gonna start to have a lot of boundaries. And I think almost always that approach backfires and winds up making the problem much worse. So that's what I've seen more often than not.
• 26:11
  Megan Hunter: Good. So come in with some empathy first and just let things settle a bit and then talk about let's sit down and make some agreements. That's the word I like to use is let's make some agreements about what all of us are going to do in this household. And it's it's hard, I think, especially for parents to think, well, we're in the we're the ones in charge of this household of protecting it, of stabilizing it, of creating the the structure and the rules. So why shouldn't we still be doing that?
• 26:36
  But I think taking that step back and first providing that validating environment before coming in with the hard core rules builds trust. So and then, you know, imposing consequences, I think, probably one of the harder things that we that we do with with any other humans at all, but it's it's absolutely helpful for someone with with BPD to help them feel, structured and, safer, I suppose, would be my word.
• 27:07
  Amanda Smith: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm not in certainly, in DBT, we aren't against having, like you said, agreements or boundaries or limits. I think that can absolutely be a part of healing and recovery, and all sorts of good things can come out of it. It's it's just a matter of, okay, when do we start having those conversations and what do they look like?
• 27:37
  And like you said, I really think that it it makes a difference when we lead with a lot of validation, a lot of empathy, a lot of love, and nonjudgmentalness. That seems to make more of a difference than saying, hey. We're not gonna have another day like we had last Saturday. We're gonna you know, that's not gonna happen again. Well, for the most part, that's something that creates even more shame and embarrassment for the person with the diagnosis who may not yet have the skills they need in order to change their behaviors, manage their emotions.
• 28:19
  So so we wanna be careful about not asking someone to do something that they may not yet be able to do.
• 28:27
  Megan Hunter: That's really important. That's it's really, really important. I think we we have a big expectation that just because you're, you know, a 16 year old or an 18 year old or a 28 year old or a 38 or a 68 year old person, you should have these skills. But if you have a disorder, you don't have those skills yet or they're not fully developed yet so they can get there, which is the great news. Exactly.
• 28:53
  So and thank you for all that. I I you know, these are the questions I get a lot from people, and and I thought, let's just hear from the expert herself. But I I know we will also wanna talk about your amazing book, the self compassion workbook for dialectical behavior therapy, skills to find self forgiveness, healing, and self love with BPD. So this is for the person who has the diagnosis. Yes?
• 29:19
  It is. Yes. It's primary primarily for the individual with the diagnosis. You've written two amazing books already that are, I think, very, very helpful. I mean, go look listeners, go look at the Amazon reviews, and you'll see how helpful these are.
• 29:34
  I I think the borderline personality disorder wellness planner for families is vastly undersold. I think it's it's just so helpful for family members. So if you are a family member, go pick that book up and and use it every week because it will immensely help your life. So this book now,
• 29:53
  Amanda Smith: how is it different? What are you doing in it? And just tell us everything about it. So the book is different because we are approaching the diagnosis and all of the symptoms of the diagnosis of BPD through the lens of self compassion. So we're understanding, you know, the first diagnostic criterion is a fear of abandonment.
• 30:20
  So let's look at this this symptom or the these sets of symptoms through the lens of self compassion. So when someone feels like a relationship is ending or a relationship in the moment is tenuous and and and just feels, there's something about it that might feel threatening, what would it look like to respond to those emotions or those thoughts or those urges to act in a way that may not be a part of a life worth living? What would it look like for that individual to respond to whatever's happening in that moment with self compassion. So I do that with all of the nine diagnostic criterion for BPD. So we look at each of them very honestly and through that lens.
• 31:19
  And then we we take a look at, okay. This is what it looks like when it just feels like everything is breaking down and everything is happening. And and then how do we how do we respond to that emotional pain with self compassion even in that moment? So maybe we're not addressing a specific symptom, but we're thinking about, again, the experience as a whole of borderline personality disorder. So that's what I'm doing with the book is addressing all of this with with an eye toward more self compassion.
• 31:57
  Megan Hunter: I think for those who have this diagnosis, that must feel great. Right? It it must feel so validating to you know, I think it's clever that you've titled the book, started it with the self compassion workbook because those with BPD, which I think is a complete surprise to the outside world is that it's a very painful disorder for those who who have it. Right? And so there's not a lot of self compassion.
• 32:25
  There's so much pain and self judgment and shame and all of that around it. So this is the same person who would probably express a lot of compassion for another person. Now it may not seem like that to a person who's in a tight relationship with someone with BPD because it's a very chaotic, but, there is a ton of self of compassion for others. So to recognize that it is something that I would need for myself and that I have I think maybe this book and the the work you do, Amanda, gives someone permission to even think about that I can have compassion for myself. Exactly.
• 33:04
  Exactly. And and and when I when I think about and I I know I said earlier, you know, DBT is not a perfect therapy or a perfect treatment. It certainly isn't for everyone.
• 33:17
  Amanda Smith: However, we can also think about, these other ideas or strategies or skills that we know are highly effective. There's also a lot of excellent research to show that people who are more self compassionate, either naturally self compassionate or they've learned to be self compassionate, they practiced self compassion, those individuals are going to be healthier. They're gonna have healthier relationships. They're gonna have less depression. They're gonna have less anxiety.
• 33:53
  There's been research to show that even for people with a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, self compassion can be also very beneficial for those individuals. So we can think about how these ideas really do apply to lots of different people. And so why not why wouldn't it also be helpful for people with a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder? And I think mhmm. I think it is a fit.
• 34:24
  So
• 34:25
  Megan Hunter: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's for everyone. It's for everyone.
• 34:30
  I I didn't know about the research about self compassion and the the positive effects from that. I I don't think that's something that most people think about.
• 34:38
  Amanda Smith: Well, I don't I don't think a lot of people know. So that's why I think this book is important. I want people to know, and I want people to know I I want people to feel hopeful that things can get better even for my clients who say, well, I'm not nice to myself. I beat myself up. I judge myself.
• 34:59
  I'm self condemning. Well, we think about how there's a missing a missing skill there. Marshall and a hand would say there's a skills deficit problem. So I think the it's also the same with self compassion that for lots of people with a diagnosis or traits of BPD, there is a skills deficit problem, and and self compassion can help and make a difference for a lot of people. So I think there's a fit there.
• 35:32
  And you're right. I think for the most part, we we think we spend a lot of time trying to get people to change their behaviors. Don't do this. Do this instead. I think that can be very helpful for a lot of people.
• 35:47
  And at the same time, I also think about how the person who is going to be more self compassionate is going to be less likely to hurt themselves. They're gonna be less likely to hurt others. They're going to be responding to whatever is happening in their environment, in the workplace, in the classroom, just in a healthier way. So so why not? I think you're right.
• 36:15
  Why why wouldn't this be for all of us?
• 36:19
  Megan Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. Self compassion becomes a skill, and it it replaces, like you said, maybe a self harming moment, and it comes from within. Right? And I I think because so many it it's so hard for someone with the diagnosis to self regulate emotions and that just those big, big, powerful feelings that are, you know, pretty negative and and, self destructive sometimes to grant oneself self compassion, then it does come from within.
• 36:55
  And no one can say from the outside except maybe a qualified therapist who uses the right language and the right process and that just an outsider can't say, you know, have compassion for yourself. Why don't you? Why don't you have compassion for yourself? It just doesn't work that way.
• 37:10
  Amanda Smith: Right. Right. And and in fact, I think the opposite is often true. You know? I and and I think there is often that experience of, hey.
• 37:21
  Again, we don't want we don't wanna we don't wanna have a repeat of what happened last Saturday, so don't do that thing again or don't say that thing again. And and, again, I I think there's a time and a place to have those discussions. But I also think about, okay. Well, what was happening right before everything fell apart last Saturday? Was the person judging themselves?
• 37:46
  Were they beating themselves up? Were they thinking, I'm a burden. I shouldn't even be here. I shouldn't be a part of this family. And then instead of taking out that pain on themselves, did they take it out on everyone else in the family or on a stranger or a customer or someone?
• 38:06
  You know? And we could think about how and and it sounds I think it sounds a lot of the time very counterintuitive. Like, oh, well, you know what? We want people to kind of be a little bit tougher because that's gonna build resilience, and that will change the behavior. But we have this idea, well, with self compassion, people are gonna let things slide.
• 38:30
  They're not going to to change the things that they can change. And I think that the research shows the exact opposite, that when people are more self compassionate and we we also know this. When people are compassionate with us, most of the time, it it it makes it easier to change those things that we wanted to change in our lives. But when other people are saying, oh my word. Stop it.
• 38:57
  Don't do that thing again. You know, you're ruining the relationship or the family. Well, then, you know, what's what's the incentive for the person with a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to change and do things differently. So if that doesn't work, why don't we try the exact opposite? Maybe maybe that will be something that could be effective for for most people.
• 39:24
  Megan Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. To you know, what's the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over and getting hoping for different results. You know?
• 39:34
  And and that's, I think, such a, you know, the the very distinct nature of personality disorders is is it's very counterintuitive, and I'd like to say it's an opposites world. So what what the person is experiencing is the opposite of what most everyone else is experiencing. And and so how can those around them respond in the same way we respond to everyone else? We have to respond in an opposite way, which is often the opposite, of what we feel like doing and what we're used to doing. So it's it's learning kind of this replacement technique of instead of judging or putting someone down or just kind of barking at them or having these high expectations is to do the opposite, and it's to provide some validation.
• 40:25
  It's to provide some empathy in those moments. That is completely counterintuitive, but it's easy to do once you get used to it. You just have to practice a little bit, and it takes discipline. And if that can help your loved one improve and recover and build that life worth living, then isn't it worth it to be that disciplined?
• 40:46
  Amanda Smith: Oh, I agree. I agree 100%. I think when I think about the wonderful clients I've worked with over many years now, the ones who have recovered, the ones who have restored relationships, the ones who have gone on to create new healthy relationships in their lives, those people have done the opposite. You're right. Again and again and again.
• 41:15
  And it and it's not just, okay. Well, I did it this one time. I did it last Tuesday at 3PM. You know, it really has to be that lifelong commitment to, okay. You know, when I when I feel like condemning myself or when I feel like hurting myself or when I'm hating myself, that's the time.
• 41:35
  That's my opportunity to be self compassionate. That's what's gonna change lives. Not that, wow. I I you know, here's one more moment when I don't like myself, and now I'm gonna shut down, or I'm gonna lash out at others. So why don't we try something so very different and see if that might be might have at least part of the answer for for what we need.
• 41:59
  Megan Hunter: Well, I think that is part of the answer, and I think your book is a big piece of the answer and the progression in, you know, the treatment and hopefulness of of treatment for borderline personality disorder. So I'm I'm really glad you've written the book, and, I know it's come from a lot of experience and a lot of of understanding where your clients have been, the shoes they've walked in, the big feelings they've had, and and what those missing pieces are. So I have no doubt that this book will be extremely helpful to many.
• 42:34
  Amanda Smith: Aw. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I also I I recently told a client, you know, I I wrote a book that I needed twenty years ago, thirty years ago.
• 42:48
  So so I think it's you know, again, this isn't just an intervention for someone with a a particular diagnosis. Like you said, I I think this is an idea for probably almost all of us. Yeah.
• 43:04
  Megan Hunter: Yeah. I 100% agree. We don't want everything to be about us. We're not saying that. It's that we do have to have some degree of self compassion and and taking care of ourselves.
• 43:16
  And, you know, it it gives us a a chance to forgive ourselves when we do mess up. And I think that opens the door then to taking the next step or to getting back on track even. Right?
• 43:29
  Amanda Smith: I absolutely agree. Yeah.
• 43:31
  Megan Hunter: Well, this has been fantastic. We are going to put the, links for your book, the self compassion workbook for dialectical behavior therapy. We'll put link in the show notes. It just came out in November 2025, so it's brand new. And it's one of those books that will live on forever and ever
• 43:50
  Amanda Smith: and be super helpful for years to come. Also, Amanda, your website is? It's hopeforbpd. So basinborderline,pasinpersonality,dasindisorder,.com. Hopeforbpd.com.
• 44:06
  Megan Hunter: Great. And we'll put that link in the show notes too as well as the link to your other two books. And just grateful for you to be for to you for being here, and I'm thankful to all of you listeners who got to have this amazing opportunity to hear from Amanda today. If you're looking for training or consultation or any, help for a high conflict situation in your personal life, come see us at conflictinfluencer.com. Or if you need training, anything like that, come to us at highconflictinstitute.com.
• 44:43
  Keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson.
• 45:02
  Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at truestory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.