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Reja Mulloor - Why Brands Keep Chasing New Customers and Losing the Ones They Have · Stacked with Jennifer Laforge

• 0:00
  Jen LaForge: I'm very excited to sit down with today's guest, who I've personally had the pleasure of working with for over seven years now, Reggie Malur.
• 0:07
  Jen LaForge: She's a director of engagement here at Racton.ca.
• 0:10
  Jen LaForge: And uh one of the things I'm most excited about when we bring a guest in to talk about uh, you know, stacked and what we're trying to do here is not only how hyper knowledgeable these individuals are, but the passion behind it.
• 0:23
  Jen LaForge: And Regia has this passion for retention and customer engagement that brings a fire to the boardroom and results to the table.
• 0:33
  Jen LaForge: So, Reggie, thank you for being here.
• 0:36
  Jen LaForge: Let's dive in.
• 0:37
  Jen LaForge: Um, let's start you just sharing a little bit about your journey and why you have this passion for customer engagement and retention.
• 0:45
  Reja Mulloor: Sure.
• 0:46
  Reja Mulloor: I mean, specific to Rackton, actually, I was a member before I even started because I love a good deal and I love giving consumers that same joy of getting the good deal.
• 0:59
  Reja Mulloor: So um in the last seven-ish years, that's pretty much been my goal is to try our best to surprise and delight customers wherever we can.
• 1:08
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and always looking out for where we might be not giving them the best experience because I'm a consumer too.
• 1:16
  Reja Mulloor: I'm a member too.
• 1:18
  Reja Mulloor: I take these experiences, even that I have with other retailers, and I tell people about it, and I, you know, laud good experiences, but I also am pretty vocal about not so great experiences.
• 1:29
  Reja Mulloor: And since I own it here, I want to make sure it represents me in a way.
• 1:34
  Reja Mulloor: So I want to make sure it's good.
• 1:35
  Jen LaForge: I love that.
• 1:36
  Jen LaForge: And that's the fire that we appreciate at the boardroom because Regia does not hold back when she uh when she is concerned about the customer journey, which is what we want.
• 1:45
  Jen LaForge: Um, let's set the stage before we dive right in here, though.
• 1:48
  Jen LaForge: Um, seven years here at Rackchin, what would you say has changed the most in terms of customer engagement within our space?
• 1:57
  Reja Mulloor: I would say um what I've seen is that as time goes on and as like technology grows, customers are becoming more and more savvy about what who they're buying through and especially their data.
• 2:13
  Reja Mulloor: So what I've seen happen more and more often is people questioning.
• 2:18
  Reja Mulloor: I don't know if I want to engage because I don't know what you're doing with my data.
• 2:22
  Reja Mulloor: And so we actually have had to work a little bit harder at ensuring that everything's secure, but also that our customers know that it's safe and that we're only using their information to provide a better experience.
• 2:38
  Reja Mulloor: I I can say that's true of me too.
• 2:40
  Reja Mulloor: I'm very hesitant when I sign up for anything on what it is I'm exchanging.
• 2:45
  Reja Mulloor: Like, do you want my firstborn?
• 2:47
  Reja Mulloor: And what am I getting in exchange for that?
• 2:48
  Reja Mulloor: Because it's a very different universe now.
• 2:51
  Jen LaForge: Absolutely.
• 2:52
  Jen LaForge: Um, in terms of a different universe, um, your evil twin, I would say, is the acquisition side.
• 2:58
  Jen LaForge: Um, but brands are finding far more value in retaining customers, not negating the value on the acquisition side, still very important.
• 3:07
  Jen LaForge: But why do you think the value is shifting towards retention now?
• 3:12
  Reja Mulloor: It's, I mean, almost anyone that's doing growth and acquisition knows how expensive it can be.
• 3:18
  Reja Mulloor: So if you're taking time and effort to grow the customers that have already bought in and had the good experience, it's a lot easier and it's a lot less expensive to grow that experience and grow that customer than it is to explain what value you're offering from to somebody that knows nothing about you.
• 3:39
  Jen LaForge: Talking about not knowing anything about you when you have a new customer, very limited data about who they are.
• 3:46
  Jen LaForge: And so trying to engage with them, especially early on, is really difficult and critical.
• 3:52
  Jen LaForge: So, what would you say brands that are really struggling with engagement with their members, likely it's happening within that early moment where you don't know each other, what are they, what are they doing wrong?
• 4:04
  Jen LaForge: Or what should they be doing to kind of help with that struggle?
• 4:09
  Reja Mulloor: This might sound stupid or like elementary, but ask them.
• 4:14
  Reja Mulloor: Brands don't ask, don't request feedback enough, and if and when they do, don't do anything with it.
• 4:21
  Reja Mulloor: So asking your customers why they're not engaging is the first most obvious step, but not enough brands are doing it.
• 4:29
  Reja Mulloor: And the second thing is is actually taking the time to do the due diligence with the data.
• 4:33
  Reja Mulloor: Um, anyone that knows me knows I'm all about the data.
• 4:36
  Reja Mulloor: And so every every company knows who their best customers are and looking at what makes them their best customer and understanding how to get everybody else to that point.
• 4:47
  Reja Mulloor: Um and in addition to that, like taking those best customers and nurturing them too, to go back to the what's more, you know, when it's more valuable to retain customers, like looking at your best customers and making sure that they remain your best customers.
• 5:03
  Jen LaForge: Okay, so you said talk to them.
• 5:06
  Jen LaForge: That opens up a whole world of challenges in of itself, because when we talk about privacy and uh especially in Canada Castle and anti-spam legislations, you can't just send everyone an email.
• 5:19
  Jen LaForge: So you're cutting your base down based on just not being able to actually speak to them.
• 5:25
  Jen LaForge: Then within that base, there's only so many that are going to respond.
• 5:29
  Jen LaForge: So uh, for you, someone who's now getting a piece of the pie and some feedback, to generalize that seems a little bit biased, biased.
• 5:40
  Jen LaForge: And to plan your entire engagement or the customer journey on that seems kind of blind.
• 5:47
  Jen LaForge: How do you take what you get?
• 5:49
  Jen LaForge: You know where I'm going with this.
• 5:51
  Reja Mulloor: So that you're like, how do you how do you decide with what little you have?
• 5:54
  Reja Mulloor: So I think it it is actually looking at the what little you have and optimizing against the rest of your audience.
• 6:01
  Reja Mulloor: But I think also there are tools that are available that are at everyone's disposal that you can use even when you might not like what they provide, in that we use Trustpilot, which is a third-party um company that will ask those questions for you.
• 6:18
  Reja Mulloor: People are more inclined to give those answers when they really truly feel like it's anonymous and when they really truly feel like they want to put their name against it.
• 6:27
  Reja Mulloor: The other place to look is Reddit.
• 6:30
  Reja Mulloor: Um, it's rich with feedback.
• 6:33
  Reja Mulloor: People love to talk.
• 6:34
  Reja Mulloor: They love to talk about themselves, they love to talk about their experiences.
• 6:38
  Reja Mulloor: Look at that and take it for what it is.
• 6:40
  Reja Mulloor: If people have had a bad experience, dive in and figure out why.
• 6:45
  Reja Mulloor: Is it a one-off?
• 6:46
  Reja Mulloor: Is it a pattern?
• 6:47
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and then use those learnings against that audience, the mystery audience, in the hopes that maybe you can re-engage them.
• 6:54
  Jen LaForge: What what would you say is more value for you as someone who's who's driving this engagement?
• 6:59
  Jen LaForge: The bad feedback that's telling you where we're going wrong, or the positive feedback?
• 7:05
  Jen LaForge: Like how do which one's more valuable?
• 7:07
  Reja Mulloor: It's it's a tough question because the position I'm in, I can only affect so much.
• 7:13
  Reja Mulloor: So a lot of the negative experiences might revolve around product and product experience.
• 7:18
  Reja Mulloor: And, you know, as as true with any large company, trying to make those kinds of major shifts will take time and effort and planning, et cetera, et cetera.
• 7:27
  Reja Mulloor: So I look for, I mean, we've always been very agile here.
• 7:30
  Reja Mulloor: We're like kind of bootstrapped in Canada.
• 7:32
  Reja Mulloor: So I look for where I can affect an a final sort of outcome within what I have available at my sort of um for me.
• 7:43
  Reja Mulloor: So I kind of look at, okay, these people are correct in that this experience is terrible.
• 7:48
  Reja Mulloor: How can I make that better from within my world?
• 7:53
  Jen LaForge: And then actually try to do that.
• 7:55
  Jen LaForge: And then you send that email the product.
• 7:57
  Jen LaForge: I know you.
• 8:00
  Reja Mulloor: There's in fact an entire page.
• 8:03
  Jen LaForge: You don't stop there again.
• 8:04
  Jen LaForge: This is why why we love having you here voice at the table.
• 8:09
  Jen LaForge: Um, so so you you're talking about this engagement, you know, throwing them through a journey, complete a transaction.
• 8:16
  Jen LaForge: That's very different than building a real relationship and engagement.
• 8:21
  Jen LaForge: So, what do you think is the difference between driving a transaction and creating engagement and a relationship with our members?
• 8:30
  Reja Mulloor: I think the biggest way we can create that relationship is to surprise and delight.
• 8:36
  Reja Mulloor: Like not enough companies are doing that, we us included.
• 8:40
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and because you're right, the the way we engage is actually having them do the transaction through us.
• 8:46
  Reja Mulloor: But we want them to always be thinking about us and how do we how do we do that?
• 8:50
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and it's by providing, especially going back to the best customers, by providing those best customers reasons uh to stay.
• 8:58
  Reja Mulloor: It's just the surprise and delight, like here's a um an experience or bonus for you because you're awesome.
• 9:05
  Reja Mulloor: Um and the thing that's great about doing that when we do create that relationship and that sort of good feeling, is that then they want to tell everybody about it.
• 9:15
  Reja Mulloor: And that is a huge, that's the biggest tool for us is going back to the acquisition and how expensive it can be.
• 9:21
  Reja Mulloor: It's not that expensive when people are telling others about it and telling them doing the, you know, selling for you.
• 9:29
  Reja Mulloor: You're obviously gonna buy into a product or service that your friend is into versus seeing an ad online and just switching, you know, trading your data for you, or your firstborn child.
• 9:42
  Jen LaForge: Right, or your firstborn.
• 9:43
  Jen LaForge: Um, I'm gonna pause there because I want to jump over.
• 9:46
  Jen LaForge: You're talking about referrals now.
• 9:47
  Jen LaForge: Obviously, very, very highly effective uh channel for new member acquisition.
• 9:53
  Jen LaForge: They become your your most savvy members.
• 9:57
  Jen LaForge: Why are is a referral channel so important to a company or a brand?
• 10:02
  Jen LaForge: And then what is our referral program?
• 10:05
  Reja Mulloor: Referral program is so important because it's not only um having your customers advertise and sell for you essentially, but it also is a good uh indicator of how well the experience is working for them too.
• 10:19
  Reja Mulloor: If you have a really strong referral program and suddenly, you know, it all drops, that is an indicator that something's broken, that something's wrong.
• 10:28
  Reja Mulloor: And so it it you can look into, you know, where's the experience dropping?
• 10:32
  Reja Mulloor: But more importantly, as I was saying before, I'm much more likely to buy into a product or service that my friend tells me about, um, especially when they're so passionate about it, especially in today's environment where like everybody's really looking to get their dollar to go further, inflation and wars and and all of the, you know, yeah crazy, crazy prices on food, et cetera.
• 10:57
  Reja Mulloor: Anywhere someone can save a dollar is going to be really valued.
• 11:01
  Reja Mulloor: And on top of that, having someone you know tell you about it costs the company next to nothing relative to putting an ad out, you know, a digital ad out or a commercial or whatever that is.
• 11:14
  Reja Mulloor: So it's always going to be a much lower cost of acquisition.
• 11:19
  Reja Mulloor: And the lifetime value of all of those customers is going to be significantly longer and more valuable to the company.
• 11:27
  Reja Mulloor: Our referral program is quite rich.
• 11:29
  Reja Mulloor: It's usually $30 for the referer and the referee.
• 11:36
  Reja Mulloor: So sometimes we will increase that bonus so that it's $10 to potentially more than that dollars richer for both the referer and the referee.
• 11:47
  Reja Mulloor: Um and it's and it's at the risk of sounding, again, simplified.
• 11:54
  Reja Mulloor: It's easy and it's it's a no-brainer.
• 11:58
  Reja Mulloor: It really is that simple.
• 11:59
  Reja Mulloor: So I've been working here for seven years.
• 12:01
  Reja Mulloor: I've had this conversation with more people than I can count.
• 12:04
  Reja Mulloor: And everybody's sort of reaction is that sounds a little too good to be true.
• 12:09
  Reja Mulloor: It's not.
• 12:10
  Reja Mulloor: I can tell you after having run the program and whatever, it really is that simple.
• 12:15
  Reja Mulloor: You sign up using your referrers code, you spend, you know, a minimum amount, which is always any online purchase is always more than $30 or $40.
• 12:24
  Reja Mulloor: And then you get sent a check within two weeks, or even faster than that if you get direct deposit.
• 12:29
  Reja Mulloor: So it's it's that easy, it's that simple, and then it's that real.
• 12:34
  Jen LaForge: So you you've 10 friends and family to sign up that's $300 in your pocket.
• 12:38
  Jen LaForge: Easy.
• 12:39
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 12:39
  Jen LaForge: Easy money.
• 12:40
  Jen LaForge: So fantastic.
• 12:42
  Jen LaForge: Um, going back a little bit now, you were talking about uh the value of retention versus acquisition, and you you made a comment about how you want them to still think about us after the transaction, which is a big thing that we try to do here is create that habit, right?
• 12:58
  Jen LaForge: So don't forget to click at Rackin before you go shopping so you can earn that cash back.
• 13:03
  Jen LaForge: It's a little bit of a muscle you've got to build on.
• 13:05
  Jen LaForge: Um, and so how would you say habits form through your engagements and the work that you're doing?
• 13:13
  Jen LaForge: So you create a habit.
• 13:15
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 13:15
  Reja Mulloor: So I mean, ideally, I have the opportunity to communicate with you.
• 13:19
  Reja Mulloor: So one of the things we have even too, we have tools too to make it easier for customers like our browser extension, so that when you are shopping online on your on your desktop, you never forget because the extension tells you, hey, this retailer's on Racketton, you can save X percent.
• 13:37
  Reja Mulloor: No reason not to click.
• 13:38
  Reja Mulloor: Literally, no reason not to click.
• 13:40
  Reja Mulloor: In addition to that, I will try to send out what I do is specific, is very audience specific, so that if I think this message is valuable to you specifically, I would like to communicate it to you.
• 13:53
  Reja Mulloor: For example, we want to tell members who have identified favorite stores when those favorite stores are at elevated cashback.
• 14:02
  Reja Mulloor: So if you have the app, you will get a push notification that says, hey, your favorite store, Old Navy, is at elevated cashback today.
• 14:10
  Reja Mulloor: It ends soon.
• 14:11
  Reja Mulloor: You might want to go shopping.
• 14:12
  Reja Mulloor: So I'm trying to also help remind them that like if you had some stuff in your cart, now is the time to check out.
• 14:20
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 14:21
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 14:21
  Jen LaForge: So is there a one one singular place within that customer journey that you get to and they're now loyal?
• 14:31
  Jen LaForge: Or is that depending on the customer and how challenging is it to find like the sweet spot?
• 14:37
  Jen LaForge: And is there one?
• 14:38
  Reja Mulloor: In my opinion, and I answer this as a retention marketer and also as a consumer, no.
• 14:45
  Reja Mulloor: Because you can have the greatest experience for decades, but then you have that one crappy experience, and that informs everything going forward.
• 14:55
  Reja Mulloor: So you want to make sure that every experience is a positive one.
• 14:59
  Reja Mulloor: And even if it's not, it's addressed in a way that has the customer still feel like they're valued and that you're valuing their business and their feedback and you're doing something about it because it's gonna happen.
• 15:11
  Reja Mulloor: You're you're gonna be loyal to all kinds of brands for a certain amount of time, and there's going to be a bad experience.
• 15:16
  Reja Mulloor: It's really how is it managed?
• 15:18
  Jen LaForge: How is it handled, whether or not you would stay?
• 15:21
  Jen LaForge: Um, I'm gonna pivot, but I have to sum up this round of questions.
• 15:26
  Jen LaForge: You sound like a superhero for our consumers because you are actively trying to isolate those bad moments, fix those bad moments, communicate with products so that they can fix surprise, delight them.
• 15:39
  Jen LaForge: You want to talk to them, you want them to think about us.
• 15:42
  Jen LaForge: Um, you really do sound like you care so much about our consumers.
• 15:47
  Jen LaForge: And I'm glad and I hope they hear this because you can sometimes feel like companies are the bad guy and they just want your money.
• 15:54
  Jen LaForge: When you sit and listen to you, Reja, talk about how important retaining customers are, at least to Raccutin, it really does sound like a very nurturing and caring relationship.
• 16:04
  Jen LaForge: Is everyone treating retention the same way, do you think?
• 16:09
  Jen LaForge: Or is that something you know brands should be leaning more into?
• 16:13
  Reja Mulloor: Um, I'm gonna go with, again, a hard no on that.
• 16:16
  Reja Mulloor: Um, there are, and and you know, if this was ours, I could list, you know, all the brands and and sort of not so great experiences I've had where you've provided feedback or you've provided uh your your negative experience and nothing comes back.
• 16:32
  Reja Mulloor: Like even just acknowledgement is something.
• 16:35
  Reja Mulloor: Um and the opportunity is endless uh to make to make that better.
• 16:41
  Jen LaForge: I think we had uh Elizabeth McNeil, who uh was very passionate about member services and how we should be treating our customer service and our member services as uh an opportunity because we have their attention, we have an opportunity to fix things and communicate with them.
• 16:58
  Jen LaForge: Um, so it sounds like you're saying the same things.
• 17:01
  Jen LaForge: Look at these moments as fresh opportunities to kind of rebuild and start fresh.
• 17:06
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 17:06
  Reja Mulloor: And and you know what?
• 17:07
  Reja Mulloor: Even remember them in the future if you're building something that's gonna address their issue and have them as part of a focus group, because then it really tells them not only did you take my feedback, you're doing something about it, and you still want me to participate.
• 17:20
  Reja Mulloor: Like that person is not only gonna participate, they're gonna tell all their friends, they're gonna post it on social.
• 17:26
  Reja Mulloor: And as everyone knows, um negative experiences travel far and wide very quickly this day and age.
• 17:36
  Reja Mulloor: And you wanna be able to sort of control that narrative, even if it starts out not so positive.
• 17:42
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and there are some brands that are doing that well too, which is great.
• 17:46
  Reja Mulloor: But in general, um, like I said, I could list several experiences where I've had no response.
• 17:52
  Jen LaForge: Part of me feels like with our over 8 million members at Racquutin, you know all of their names.
• 17:57
  Jen LaForge: That's that's no, I know you don't, but um so that talking about your retention being so valuable, what do you think breaks when a brand or a company leans too far on the acquisition side and kind of forgets that acquisition piece when they're not in balanced?
• 18:16
  Jen LaForge: I mean, what really breaks in that scenario?
• 18:19
  Reja Mulloor: I mean, literally loyalty.
• 18:20
  Reja Mulloor: Uh, why am I staying with you when when I get the the message of here's this awesome deal, but it's for new customers only.
• 18:30
  Reja Mulloor: Right.
• 18:31
  Reja Mulloor: What about your I've been part of your service or product, whatever, for 20 plus years.
• 18:37
  Reja Mulloor: And I'm thinking about telco just in my head.
• 18:40
  Reja Mulloor: Like what's in it for me?
• 18:42
  Reja Mulloor: Um, it's turned into a commodity, so I can easily switch and jump back and forth.
• 18:46
  Reja Mulloor: Why should I stay?
• 18:48
  Reja Mulloor: And not enough brands are giving that value to the existing customer, and they're putting all that time and energy and money into acquisition, and that's what they're losing.
• 18:57
  Reja Mulloor: They're losing the customer.
• 18:58
  Reja Mulloor: The customer has options.
• 19:00
  Reja Mulloor: And this day and age, when they want their dollar to go further, they want it to go to a company that actually values that dollar.
• 19:07
  Reja Mulloor: In fact, I think most consumers are willing to spend a touch more to give a smaller, potentially smaller company their dollar versus making a billion trillion dollar company four dollars extra.
• 19:24
  Reja Mulloor: I want my dollar to go to the company that values it.
• 19:28
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and that's your opportunity.
• 19:30
  Reja Mulloor: That as a brand, as a as a service is the opportunity for you to make sure that that extra dollar goes to them and not their competitor.
• 19:39
  Reja Mulloor: And if you're spending all your time, effort, and strategy on acquisition, you're missing that opportunity.
• 19:46
  Reja Mulloor: And it doesn't even cost that much time or money.
• 19:50
  Jen LaForge: I think we've said a few times here at least that heavy acquisition without the retention is like filling a bucket with holes.
• 19:58
  Jen LaForge: And so you're just wasting a whole lot of that acquisition effort by not focusing on how to really keep them and drive that engagement.
• 20:06
  Jen LaForge: Now, when you're building these engagement strategies and trying to get a customer into your very loyal space and interact with you, there's gotta be some trade-offs.
• 20:16
  Jen LaForge: What are some of the trade-offs that you have to anticipate or think about when you're building these customer engagement strategies?
• 20:23
  Jen LaForge: I think we have to think about the experience.
• 20:27
  Reja Mulloor: The experience is not going to be the same for every customer, unfortunately.
• 20:31
  Reja Mulloor: Like in a company like ours, where cashback varies greatly across retailers, I can provide a better experience to somebody that's more interested in those products and services with those higher cashback retailers than somebody that is really only looking at a small sort of category or a small product or whatever.
• 20:52
  Reja Mulloor: And so you're trying to tailor those offers to make sure everybody's happy, but there's always going to be a trade-off.
• 21:00
  Reja Mulloor: At some point, I need critical mass in order to justify doing those things.
• 21:05
  Reja Mulloor: And if the audience is too small, I need to sort of figure out where's the ROI on this.
• 21:09
  Reja Mulloor: Because that is, at the end of the day, it is a business.
• 21:12
  Reja Mulloor: And, you know, we need to see the ROI and where we're investing.
• 21:16
  Reja Mulloor: And sometimes the the smaller people in what are however you that's defined may not get as much attention as as you'd like them to, but that's the trade-off.
• 21:26
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 21:27
  Jen LaForge: So you you can't make everyone happy.
• 21:28
  Jen LaForge: You can't make everyone happy.
• 21:31
  Reja Mulloor: I hear you.
• 21:32
  Reja Mulloor: It applies to all things in life.
• 21:34
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, that's a blanket statement.
• 21:36
  Jen LaForge: You cannot make everyone happy all of the time.
• 21:39
  Jen LaForge: Um, but how do you know uh that you're doing a good job?
• 21:42
  Jen LaForge: Like what's what points in the data are you really looking at that says we have treated this customer the way they deserve?
• 21:48
  Jen LaForge: They are loyal to us and we have a strong relationship.
• 21:51
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah, so we have specific, very specific KPIs for that.
• 21:54
  Reja Mulloor: It's not just orders and frequency of orders and engagement in what.
• 21:59
  Reja Mulloor: That looks like it those are the sort of top two.
• 22:03
  Reja Mulloor: Um, but even visits, even coming to our site and remembering about us, even clicking on those merchants, tells me they're thinking about us and they're happy because if they weren't, they wouldn't be here.
• 22:14
  Reja Mulloor: So the other way, you know, is again by the feedback, if you're asking them.
• 22:19
  Reja Mulloor: Um, I actually look at, so again, going to Trustpilot, I actually look at what that feedback is, and I love to see the feed, the the quotes that are specific around this isn't a scam.
• 22:31
  Reja Mulloor: It's like this is the message we're trying to get across, and we can't.
• 22:36
  Reja Mulloor: And our the best people to get that message across is our happy customers.
• 22:40
  Reja Mulloor: And so I love to see those kinds of comments of like, I saved ta I saved cash on something I was doing anyway.
• 22:48
  Reja Mulloor: Like that tells me it's working.
• 22:50
  Reja Mulloor: I also, we also have KPIs um around the how long somebody's, you know, with the company and and how long they've been ordering through us and active through us.
• 23:01
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and another great sort of metric would be looking at referrals.
• 23:05
  Reja Mulloor: Has this person referred?
• 23:06
  Reja Mulloor: Because I know you're happy, obviously, if you're telling everybody about this.
• 23:11
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 23:13
  Jen LaForge: He do love your referral program.
• 23:14
  Jen LaForge: Um, okay, so we're gonna switch uh a little bit here, and I need to power up for this one.
• 23:20
  Jen LaForge: Get ready.
• 23:21
  Jen LaForge: Soon I have sorry.
• 23:23
  Jen LaForge: Load up, load up.
• 23:24
  Jen LaForge: Um, but I'm gonna switch over to AI because we've been talking about uh retention and the importance of building loyalty as if the game's the same as it was five years ago.
• 23:34
  Jen LaForge: It's not.
• 23:34
  Jen LaForge: AI is changing every game on the planet.
• 23:37
  Jen LaForge: So when you think about how that customer journey and the engagement, how they're searching, how they're shopping, how they're behaving online and interacting with companies, what do you think is um the number one shift in how you now have to interact with them because of AI?
• 23:56
  Reja Mulloor: I think AI can be really useful in providing the right experience at the right time to the right member.
• 24:05
  Reja Mulloor: Um, when they're on our site, as mentioned before, it's it, those are all owned by us.
• 24:11
  Reja Mulloor: So we have a better lens of what people are doing, where they might go next, and actually using AI to potentially predict what is the next best action, what is the next best um offer, even for the for these customers, and being able to tailor an experience around what that looks like.
• 24:32
  Reja Mulloor: The the experience might not be always offering dollars.
• 24:36
  Reja Mulloor: It might just be surfacing the right merchants at the right time and be making it easier for a member to go shopping and save money.
• 24:47
  Jen LaForge: Do you think in your world, obviously you want to be able to talk to these consumers, but you can't overwhelm them.
• 24:54
  Jen LaForge: And personalization and using AI to predict things should make that much easier.
• 25:00
  Jen LaForge: But is there a risk as we are evolving out of these old ways of communication and interaction into the new?
• 25:07
  Jen LaForge: Like, what is the risk of just overwhelming our consumers in this transition?
• 25:12
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah, there's something I've, you know, the team knows that I call the creep factor, which is when you go in knowing sort of too much and you you don't want to make people uncomfortable in that.
• 25:24
  Reja Mulloor: How did you know that I did X, Y, Z?
• 25:27
  Reja Mulloor: I whatever.
• 25:29
  Reja Mulloor: How you don't want to make them feel kind of overwhelmed in this way, because as I mentioned kind of earlier, everyone's really particular about their data and what companies know about them and how companies are using it.
• 25:40
  Reja Mulloor: I want to make sure we're using their data in a way that exclusively benefits them and them only, because by them having a good experience, we have a good experience.
• 25:50
  Jen LaForge: Well, you were talking about the creep factor.
• 25:52
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Jen LaForge: And I want to pause there because the creep, it's very real.
• 25:55
  Jen LaForge: I think we all experience it.
• 25:57
  Jen LaForge: We have a side conversation with someone, and next thing all of our algorithms and feeds have changed.
• 26:04
  Jen LaForge: Sometimes I've just thought it and suddenly my algorithm and my feeds have changed, and that's super creepy.
• 26:12
  Jen LaForge: But also feel like we're becoming almost numb to the the creepy effect that um I'm gonna use that from now on.
• 26:19
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 26:19
  Jen LaForge: Um so so talk to that.
• 26:21
  Jen LaForge: Like, is there a world where we're just gonna get used to companies knowing stuff about us and being creeped at?
• 26:27
  Reja Mulloor: I I think yes.
• 26:29
  Reja Mulloor: Um, we do have to sort of adopt the idea that our data is a commodity and companies are using it.
• 26:35
  Reja Mulloor: Hopefully they're using it in a way that benefits you also.
• 26:39
  Reja Mulloor: Um, but be be savvy about it, be vocal about it.
• 26:44
  Reja Mulloor: If you're not comfortable with how a company is using your data, vocalize it.
• 26:50
  Reja Mulloor: And there are laws to protect consumers for that kind of thing.
• 26:53
  Reja Mulloor: And though you might have to get used to it, it is your, it is your, it is a currency.
• 26:58
  Reja Mulloor: It is your currency and you can use it to your advantage too.
• 27:01
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, there is uh, in fact, a way where you can contact any company, at least here in Canada, and request all of your data to be deleted and wiped clean with confirmation and receive what data they have.
• 27:14
  Jen LaForge: So if you're curious to say what data of mind do you have, you can actually request that and have them wipe it out of their database.
• 27:19
  Jen LaForge: And I think they have like 10 days to act on that.
• 27:22
  Jen LaForge: And so you know, there should be a safety in that.
• 27:26
  Jen LaForge: If you do feel like that creep, creepy effect is getting a little too strong, um, then then there is a way, and you're saying consumers should be very vocal about that.
• 27:36
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Jen LaForge: But then also brands should be very conscious of not putting themselves in that position and respecting it.
• 27:41
  Jen LaForge: It is a fine balance.
• 27:42
  Jen LaForge: It you want to make sure you're not hitting the creep with the creep factor.
• 27:45
  Jen LaForge: But do you let's um blanket like the the change of AI overall?
• 27:50
  Jen LaForge: Um, I'd love to hear just your opinion on like what you think AI is going to do to the entire landscape of customer retention.
• 27:58
  Jen LaForge: Make it easier, make it harder, change all of our tools and strategies.
• 28:03
  Jen LaForge: Like what's what's coming?
• 28:05
  Jen LaForge: And do you think?
• 28:06
  Reja Mulloor: I think, I think AI will have a huge effect on personalization to speak to what we were talking about earlier, but personalization in the right way.
• 28:14
  Reja Mulloor: Um, we can't, as we were saying earlier, you you can't be everything to everyone.
• 28:19
  Reja Mulloor: You can't make everyone happy.
• 28:20
  Reja Mulloor: I think at some point, AI might be able to do that with respect to your shopping habits and shopping behavior.
• 28:27
  Reja Mulloor: Again, surfacing the right product or service at the right time with the right deal.
• 28:33
  Reja Mulloor: Um, that would be a pleasant experience for me, actually, if I'm shopping for specific kind of shoes and I put that in AI, and AI gives me a whole list of shoes that I'm interested in, colors, price point, um, even geography.
• 28:50
  Reja Mulloor: AI will make all of that much more accessible.
• 28:54
  Reja Mulloor: Um, but there's always gonna be the the questionable factor of like, is this full information?
• 29:04
  Reja Mulloor: Is this the correct information?
• 29:06
  Reja Mulloor: Do I need to do more due diligence?
• 29:08
  Reja Mulloor: I think AI will get better at that, but there should always be the should I be questioning this?
• 29:15
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 29:15
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, you're you're making me question a lot of things.
• 29:18
  Jen LaForge: This wasn't on the script at all.
• 29:19
  Jen LaForge: This is actually a personal question I've been fumbling around in my head with for a while.
• 29:23
  Jen LaForge: When I and I just won't play with this with you for a bit.
• 29:26
  Jen LaForge: When it comes to personalization and AI, there's a part of me that thinks two things.
• 29:32
  Jen LaForge: One, most people don't really know themselves.
• 29:35
  Jen LaForge: And so the the data that AI is picking up and like defining this person around, there could be a mismatch of what's true to me.
• 29:44
  Jen LaForge: And the other side of that is now they're sending me all these things they think I like.
• 29:49
  Jen LaForge: And so, where's discovery fall into that?
• 29:51
  Jen LaForge: So now suddenly my world has gotten much smaller, and it's just a subset of products that are now supposedly perfect for me and whoever I am.
• 30:01
  Jen LaForge: Like this is a very confusing world we're entering into.
• 30:06
  Jen LaForge: So, what are your thoughts on how personalization and discovery with a consumer kind of mingles together?
• 30:16
  Reja Mulloor: I think as long as the the gates are made obvious to consumers, then that is a happy way to enter into this world.
• 30:27
  Reja Mulloor: Meaning AI and and those um platforms are providing consumers a way to control certain things.
• 30:35
  Reja Mulloor: So um, yes, that's happened to me before too, where like I click on one thing because a friend is interested, and now suddenly my whole feed is this thing.
• 30:44
  Reja Mulloor: If there are easy ways to engage with AI to say, I want more of this, I don't want more of this, that is much more specific than the little checkbox or whatever.
• 30:55
  Reja Mulloor: It is you can tailor the experience to you.
• 30:58
  Reja Mulloor: At some point, that becomes very valuable.
• 31:01
  Reja Mulloor: The only thing to be wary of is what you're is the firstborn.
• 31:06
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 31:06
  Reja Mulloor: Because at this point, you are tailoring your experience so specifically that it is so specific to you that now those platforms really understand who you are, whether or not you do.
• 31:19
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 31:20
  Reja Mulloor: And what they're going to do with that is kind of a mystery.
• 31:24
  Reja Mulloor: So this that's where we're at now.
• 31:27
  Reja Mulloor: So, you know, come 10 years from now, you know, I'm I'm I know as a consumer I'm gonna want control.
• 31:35
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 31:36
  Jen LaForge: So that leads to expectations, consumer expectations.
• 31:40
  Jen LaForge: Put on your consumer hat now, not the retention hat now.
• 31:43
  Jen LaForge: What what do you think consumers are going to be expecting about loyalty through these changes?
• 31:48
  Jen LaForge: Like, how is that standard gonna change to you?
• 31:51
  Reja Mulloor: I think it should get easier as a consumer for me to be loyal with any sort with any company or a brand, um, because you should know a lot about me exclusively based on how I'm interacting with you and your brand online.
• 32:06
  Reja Mulloor: That said, what I also expect is more richer programs.
• 32:13
  Reja Mulloor: What we're seeing now is I'm, you know, constantly getting emails from loyalty programs and brands saying, our program has changed.
• 32:21
  Reja Mulloor: You now get less for what you used to have.
• 32:24
  Reja Mulloor: And consumers are just like, there are only so many dollars to be split.
• 32:30
  Reja Mulloor: The wallet can only be split so many ways.
• 32:33
  Reja Mulloor: You want to make sure you've captured your place in that wallet.
• 32:37
  Reja Mulloor: And the harder you make it, programs changing, less rich, less rich programs, then you risk losing them altogether because they need their dollar to go further.
• 32:49
  Reja Mulloor: And that's true now more than ever, and will be in the future.
• 32:54
  Reja Mulloor: Um, I think, I think again, it's an opportunity because it's actually a time when brands can actually be giving more in order to secure that loyalty for five years in the future.
• 33:06
  Jen LaForge: Agree.
• 33:06
  Jen LaForge: I I would stand behind those statements 100%.
• 33:09
  Jen LaForge: Um, what a lot of what we talk about here with my guests is value.
• 33:13
  Jen LaForge: So I want to pivot over there and ask you what your definition of value is.
• 33:17
  Jen LaForge: And then I have a follow-up question there.
• 33:19
  Reja Mulloor: My definition of value is how I feel post-transaction.
• 33:23
  Reja Mulloor: Oh, that's a new one.
• 33:25
  Reja Mulloor: If I have a feeling of joy and excitement because so for me, sorry, for me specifically, okay, I love a good deal.
• 33:35
  Reja Mulloor: When I get a good deal, I tell everybody about it because I'm so proud of the good deal.
• 33:40
  Reja Mulloor: I'm not the person that buys like designer clothes and and stuff and and needs to tout that.
• 33:48
  Reja Mulloor: Like I'm really more like, I got this thing at this price and I negotiated the crap out of it.
• 33:54
  Reja Mulloor: Five dollars.
• 33:56
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 33:57
  Reja Mulloor: And it's that, that's when I know I got value because it was on my terms.
• 34:01
  Reja Mulloor: Especially when I like I have so many people that come to me and are like and are with me even in a retail experience and are surprised when I ask for a discount or a better deal or whatever, an opportunity for me to save money.
• 34:18
  Reja Mulloor: People that are sometimes embarrassed.
• 34:20
  Reja Mulloor: Um, but it's you never know unless you ask.
• 34:24
  Reja Mulloor: And if I ask and it works, I get that feeling, that high of like that is good, that is good value for my dollar because I defined it.
• 34:34
  Jen LaForge: I do think more people should be like Regg in terms of just asking.
• 34:38
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 34:39
  Jen LaForge: And getting that no.
• 34:40
  Jen LaForge: It's it's okay to get that no, because most of the time there is a yes.
• 34:45
  Reja Mulloor: Most of the time there is a yes.
• 34:47
  Reja Mulloor: I can tell you from experience.
• 34:48
  Jen LaForge: Yes, there's always a yes.
• 34:49
  Jen LaForge: So be brave and say, hey, this does meet my expectations.
• 34:53
  Jen LaForge: I want X off, or what else can you do for me?
• 34:56
  Jen LaForge: I think you see that a lot in car lots.
• 34:58
  Reja Mulloor: Um, but it's not the same thing.
• 35:00
  Jen LaForge: But it can happen anywhere.
• 35:00
  Jen LaForge: It can happen anywhere.
• 35:02
  Reja Mulloor: It really can, even when you don't think I've had people tell me, like, I'm gonna take you the next time I go negotiate a car because Well, you're com you're gonna come, I'm bringing you everywhere with me.
• 35:12
  Jen LaForge: Um, so with the question of value, one of the things we're talking about is being more intentional in the loyalty programs that you are joining and making sure you're stacking them for the most value.
• 35:25
  Jen LaForge: But it doesn't mean get every loyalty program in the country and try and maximize all of them and have a wallet this sick and pull out all these cards.
• 35:32
  Jen LaForge: Being very intentional with your own personal definition of value, let's add in the layer of retention and how that's going to help people decide what those top three programs are going to be.
• 35:46
  Jen LaForge: How do they think about the retention side and what that cuss that that company is trying to do for their relationship in that decision making?
• 35:54
  Reja Mulloor: So I think when companies provide that surprise and delight for their best customers, no matter what, their program is going to land in that top three, even if the program is less rewarding, not by significant a significant amount, but less rewarding or maybe has some obstacles that are not ideal.
• 36:15
  Reja Mulloor: Um, once you build that brand loyalty, you want your dollar to go to them no matter what.
• 36:21
  Reja Mulloor: And as long as the program makes sense for you and you're investing in the entire customer relationship, yours will always be in the top three.
• 36:32
  Reja Mulloor: Um, and even on that note, one of the companies I was thinking about that does a really good job at this is Chewy.
• 36:38
  Reja Mulloor: They they will, you know, send you a hand-painted picture of your pet just because, and it's just it's just surprise and delight.
• 36:47
  Reja Mulloor: Even if you've decided you're going to invest in another company for food or whatever, you will actively switch and go back, even if you're paying a little bit more because you know that company values you, your pet, your the relationship between you two, and the relationship you have with that company.
• 37:05
  Reja Mulloor: So even if it doesn't look as rich, that's who you want to give your dollar to.
• 37:12
  Jen LaForge: I think pet companies do a really great job of creating that personalized relationship because they truly understand the value of that relationship with your pet, which is so unique in this world and probably the strongest love yet to exist on this planet for a lot of people.
• 37:30
  Jen LaForge: I mean, so I think I you're right.
• 37:32
  Jen LaForge: I think a lot of pet companies do it very, very well.
• 37:35
  Reja Mulloor: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Reja Mulloor: And just recognizing that that's not tangible.
• 37:38
  Reja Mulloor: That's not uh KPI.
• 37:40
  Reja Mulloor: And when you are investing in those things, that's where loyalty really becomes becomes a game changer because that loyalty won't be broken, assuming you don't screw it up.
• 37:53
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna I I wanna end it on two last things.
• 37:56
  Jen LaForge: The first one is I'd like for you to give everybody one red flag and one green flag that they should keep an eye out for with a company interacting with them, trying to build a relationship that they will really help them understand how healthy that relationship is.
• 38:12
  Jen LaForge: So, what's a green flag and a red flag?
• 38:14
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna go back to the what I was saying earlier of the red flag.
• 38:19
  Reja Mulloor: If and when you have a negative experience and it is not addressed in a way that makes sense for you, red flag.
• 38:26
  Reja Mulloor: That it's not gonna get better from there.
• 38:27
  Reja Mulloor: And a green flag, I would say, is is if you get the value feeling and it just builds every time you engage with that company, whatever that engagement looks like.
• 38:38
  Reja Mulloor: If you feel good post-transaction or engagement, then there's no reason you wouldn't continue with that relationship.
• 38:48
  Jen LaForge: One of the things that drives me crazy is when a company sends me the 14th email with the same message, but slightly more urgent, slightly more love-balming.
• 38:59
  Jen LaForge: And I'm like, guys, I know I'm done.
• 39:02
  Jen LaForge: And I've now unsubscribed and completely abandoned that brand.
• 39:05
  Jen LaForge: What when do you stop?
• 39:07
  Jen LaForge: And this wasn't the second part, but I no, I I do that sometimes.
• 39:11
  Jen LaForge: So, like, when do you stop though?
• 39:13
  Jen LaForge: When do you they they don't, they're not interested in us?
• 39:16
  Reja Mulloor: I don't think there's any finite sort of this date and time and this is how you stop, whatever.
• 39:21
  Reja Mulloor: It's it's it's figuring it out through experience.
• 39:23
  Reja Mulloor: It's communicating and then figuring out at this point, is when they do certain actions that you would consider deal breakers, like unsubscribing.
• 39:32
  Reja Mulloor: Then I need to stop doing this.
• 39:33
  Reja Mulloor: And unfortunately, a lot of that is just through trial and error, which we do a lot of here.
• 39:39
  Reja Mulloor: Everything I do is some sort of test built into it because I want to always be able to be providing an optimal experience.
• 39:47
  Jen LaForge: So, yeah.
• 39:48
  Jen LaForge: So uh that was a gift for you.
• 39:50
  Jen LaForge: Now a gift for me.
• 39:51
  Jen LaForge: And uh, this has been the back of my head since we're talking about AI and algorithms, how they pick up our conversations.
• 39:57
  Jen LaForge: Um, in our meeting yesterday, a bunch of us got excited because Majuri SummerSale had started.
• 40:03
  Jen LaForge: And so it was a big conversation.
• 40:04
  Jen LaForge: I'm just curious, did you go home and you know, stand next to your husband, your partner's phone and let it know that Majuri Summer Sale is on and that you're really interested in the three-piece.
• 40:18
  Jen LaForge: You know, do you do that?
• 40:20
  Reja Mulloor: I do not.
• 40:21
  Reja Mulloor: I do not, because I'm really about I want the experience.
• 40:25
  Reja Mulloor: I like shopping.
• 40:27
  Reja Mulloor: I I want that retail experience.
• 40:29
  Reja Mulloor: So that is part of the joy for me.
• 40:31
  Reja Mulloor: Uh, we were talking about this last week.
• 40:32
  Reja Mulloor: There is a, I think, Korean company providing the entire retail experience that's fake.
• 40:39
  Reja Mulloor: Yes.
• 40:40
  Reja Mulloor: And then they don't it goes right up to shipping and it should be at your door, and then it's not there.
• 40:44
  Reja Mulloor: It's so you can ex feel the experience.
• 40:47
  Reja Mulloor: For me, that's definitely part of the experience.
• 40:50
  Reja Mulloor: But then it showing up at the door is like that's your that's the climax.
• 40:55
  Reja Mulloor: That's like that app.
• 40:56
  Jen LaForge: I'm especially interested in those dopamine fake shopping um apps that are coming out because I'm an abandoned carter.
• 41:04
  Jen LaForge: Um I shop all of the time, but I'm very frugal and I've got you know my environmental concerns.
• 41:08
  Jen LaForge: Do I need this?
• 41:09
  Jen LaForge: Is it gonna last?
• 41:10
  Jen LaForge: Is it quality?
• 41:11
  Jen LaForge: But I load up carts every day and just abandon them.
• 41:14
  Reja Mulloor: So for me, it would really work, but you No, I need the whole, but I need the whole experience.
• 41:19
  Reja Mulloor: I need the shopping too.
• 41:20
  Reja Mulloor: I need I need to be able to select it and look at it in different ways.
• 41:23
  Reja Mulloor: I need to think about it.
• 41:25
  Jen LaForge: You know, so there you go.
• 41:28
  Jen LaForge: Well, there you have it, folks.
• 41:30
  Jen LaForge: We talked about the importance of retention uh with members.
• 41:32
  Jen LaForge: It is actually a symbiotic relationship of true value that a good company puts a lot of weight and attention on.
• 41:40
  Jen LaForge: Very thankful to have you here at Rackchin.
• 41:42
  Reja Mulloor: Thank you.
• 41:43
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, how you take care of our members.
• 41:45
  Jen LaForge: Um, if anyone has questions uh or would like to provide Regia with feedback that she so loves and desires to help us be better, um by all means uh hit us up LinkedIn Slack Regimure, uh Director of Engagement here at Rackchin.
• 42:00
  Jen LaForge: Thank you again.
• 42:01
  Reja Mulloor: You're very welcome.
• 42:02
  Reja Mulloor: It was my pleasure.
• 42:02
  Reja Mulloor: I love talking about things I'm passionate about.
• 42:05
  Reja Mulloor: Perfect.
• 42:06
  Reja Mulloor: And that's it.
• 42:07
  Reja Mulloor: This episode of Stacked.
• 42:08
  Reja Mulloor: If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes.
• 42:16
  Reja Mulloor: And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you.
• 42:19
  Reja Mulloor: See you next time.