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"Good Intentions" Aren't a Substitute for Consent! with Paloma Alves (S05 Ep66) · ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong

• 0:00
  People are massaging on the social dance floor uninvited,
• 0:04
  just because. Just because.
• 0:05
  Why? I have some injury on my left
• 0:08
  shoulder and at some point I really needed to tell the person
• 0:11
  like, hey, it's hurting me so thank you, but no.
• 0:14
  The most common one that I have felt being done to me was on my
• 0:18
  back, like along my spine. Nowadays, for sure, if the
• 0:21
  person doing something that is hurting my body, I would say
• 0:24
  like, hey, please can you stop? It's not nice.
• 0:26
  Oh, this massage is not bad, but this situation is so weird,
• 0:30
  Like, what's going on? What's happening?
• 0:32
  What am I supposed to do? Is this right?
• 0:34
  Why is this happening right now? And there was no consent, There
• 0:39
  was no agreement. There was no verbal discussion
• 0:42
  about it. We're dancing and then the near
• 0:45
  aspect of having to have all this talk about the massage,
• 0:49
  like why don't we don't we just don't do it.
• 0:51
  What if instead, we're the piano better?
• 0:55
  Is it part of the dance that you dance with everybody?
• 0:59
  Probably not. Probably not.
• 1:00
  So let's be careful with that and let's become more informed
• 1:04
  and more respectful in the community.
• 1:09
  Imagine this. You're dancing with a stranger
• 1:12
  and they start giving you a massage.
• 1:15
  Is this OK? We're talking about an invited
• 1:19
  touch, the fine line between movement and therapy, and the
• 1:23
  importance of explicit consent. Why do people think it's OK to
• 1:28
  do this on the social dance floor?
• 1:31
  Well, let's find out. Hello.
• 1:33
  Hello everyone, and welcome back to Zuk Nerds.
• 1:36
  In this episode, joined by D Prada and Paloma Alvis, we
• 1:41
  tackle the controversial topic of an invited massage,
• 1:44
  stretching and touching, and dance.
• 1:47
  We discuss why it's never OK to assume consent for such intimate
• 1:52
  physical contact, even with the best intentions.
• 1:56
  Whether you are a leader or a follower, it's crucial to
• 1:59
  understand the difference between conscious touch and a
• 2:03
  boundary violation. So let's go.
• 2:15
  Hello, hello everybody and welcome back to another episode.
• 2:19
  My name is Alison Sanji and we are very happy to once again
• 2:23
  welcome back our beautiful Co host Gheep brother.
• 2:27
  Hello Ghee. Hello Alison.
• 2:29
  Hello everybody. And welcome back once again.
• 2:35
  We held Paloma for one more episode.
• 2:38
  If you were hearing the last one, we thought it was going to
• 2:41
  be the last one. But welcome back, Paloma.
• 2:45
  Thank you have to be back. Hello people, beautiful people.
• 2:50
  We're back to be back and have to be back.
• 2:52
  Yes, we are back to be back. And that's a joke from three
• 2:56
  episodes ago. And Paloma said that, but that's
• 2:59
  OK. If you didn't listen to that
• 3:02
  one, go back and you'll have a little laugh with us in the
• 3:05
  future. And next time you see Paloma,
• 3:07
  just tell Paloma, hey, Paloma, are you back to be back?
• 3:11
  And you know, this will live forever.
• 3:14
  And for today, we are going to approach another topic.
• 3:18
  If you're here in the last episode, you know we're going in
• 3:22
  a certain direction. We're going to be talking about
• 3:25
  the fact that people are massaging people on the social
• 3:30
  dance floor uninvited just because, just because why?
• 3:36
  I don't understand why. I know some people teach it and
• 3:40
  I'm still thinking why? Because I do not understand how
• 3:46
  some people will think that it's OK to do that or how some
• 3:51
  teachers will just say in class that, you know, if you feel
• 3:54
  something, just massage your partner and everything is fine.
• 3:58
  Like, bro, that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
• 4:02
  Because if you don't have your tea, grab a tea because we're
• 4:06
  going to spill some tea in this episode in the fire.
• 4:09
  It's going to boil. So let's get to it.
• 4:12
  Paloma. Especially as a follower,
• 4:15
  because a lot of the times this is leaders doing to followers.
• 4:19
  How do you feel about this? Many things, many leaders.
• 4:23
  Many things. I have my tea here.
• 4:26
  I would start with the experience that I had that the
• 4:28
  guy start the dance right away telling me that he likes to do
• 4:34
  massage, doing the dance and if I was OK with that and I said
• 4:39
  maybe you can try and if I would not like I will tell you.
• 4:44
  And then he said, oh, totally fine.
• 4:46
  And it was the first time someone approached me in that
• 4:49
  way. And I love it because actually
• 4:52
  he is a massage therapist. So it was OK to receive.
• 4:57
  It was nice. It wasn't a few moments during
• 5:00
  the dance. OK, was not the entire dance
• 5:02
  doing that and I think the amount of it can be very
• 5:06
  abstract, you know, but I will bring the topic that I had
• 5:11
  moments that I've received and it wasn't comfortable at all.
• 5:15
  In addition to that, not just massage, but some people try to
• 5:18
  stretch my body without asking for that and actually felt very
• 5:25
  uncomfortable. I have some injury on my left
• 5:28
  shoulder and at some point I really needed to tell the person
• 5:32
  like, hey, it's hurting me, so thank you, but no.
• 5:36
  And the person look at me like, OK.
• 5:38
  But for me, the point is it is a really challenge on our desk to
• 5:43
  find the sweet spot of doing things in a very comfortable
• 5:47
  way. Each body we're going to react
• 5:49
  in a different way, right? Even when we go to a massage,
• 5:53
  people ask like how is the amount of pressure that you
• 5:56
  want? And we are not receiving that
• 5:59
  and dense people asking this normally, right?
• 6:02
  You know, massage, the person says.
• 6:04
  Is it OK? More or less, yeah.
• 6:07
  Yeah. So what I had been receiving,
• 6:10
  and I'm not saying that I don't like, but I'm saying very
• 6:14
  specifically that the right amount, it's very abstract, you
• 6:20
  know, because I had the moment that I received more pressure in
• 6:25
  the wrong place close to my spine.
• 6:27
  And my advice, it's like if you go to dance with someone and you
• 6:32
  do like to try that, at least search for some clarification
• 6:37
  with the person, if the person is liking, if it's comfortable
• 6:41
  because it's out of the dance aspect.
• 6:44
  I'm not saying that you cannot bring, but I'm saying that it's
• 6:47
  very important that you check with the person.
• 6:52
  That is one of the points. And the other one, when you say
• 6:55
  that people are teaching that, it come up to my mind is like,
• 6:59
  how can we teach massage in one class?
• 7:03
  You know, So I don't know because I wasn't there in those
• 7:07
  classes. But what come up is if you're
• 7:11
  there receiving that class and you want to apply this into
• 7:14
  someone's body, like are you feel really like sure and secure
• 7:20
  that you can do that? You know, and we know that the
• 7:24
  body already in the flow of the desk can have so many different
• 7:29
  alignments, so many different amount of engaging on the
• 7:34
  muscles. Sometimes receive a massage can
• 7:36
  maybe have the opposite result in my point of view, like.
• 7:42
  I've been to a professional masseuse that after the massage
• 7:46
  I felt worse and I felt misaligned and I felt like, Oh
• 7:51
  my God, my body went three steps back.
• 7:54
  And that was a professional person that should know what
• 7:58
  they're doing, let alone somebody on the dance floor that
• 8:01
  took a one hour workshop and then realized that Oh my God, I
• 8:06
  can just massage people anytime I want, bro, do not do not.
• 8:15
  It's hard to do well. It's one of those things that is
• 8:18
  really hard to pull off. Really, really difficult.
• 8:21
  We sometimes cannot teach us how to chill in one class, let
• 8:25
  alone. Did you not?
• 8:27
  Did not? Sometimes Every time.
• 8:30
  Every time. So TIO is a big topic, OK?
• 8:34
  A big topic. Well, right, like we can do it a
• 8:37
  Gene One class, OK, You know, So the matter of being able to do a
• 8:42
  massage well while dancing is really difficult.
• 8:46
  And from my experience, there might have been perhaps once
• 8:51
  that I liked when it was done to me once.
• 8:54
  And I'm saying once because there might have been in the
• 8:57
  realm of probability one time. That was nice because I cannot
• 9:02
  remember. I don't have a memory of a very
• 9:04
  good one. And I said, wow, this was good.
• 9:06
  You know, and I think it's nice for us to clarify that when we
• 9:10
  mean by massage in these episodes, we are talking about
• 9:13
  really like moving the hands and like pressing into the muscle.
• 9:17
  Talk about sometimes a little squeeze that happened during the
• 9:20
  dance. We talked about a lot of that
• 9:22
  thing. The most common one that I have
• 9:24
  felt being done to me was on my back, coming from down, up, like
• 9:29
  along my spine like this. This is the one that I felt the
• 9:32
  most being done to me. And it's interesting because
• 9:36
  while it was happening, I didn't see anything.
• 9:40
  I didn't say I don't like it. I didn't say stop.
• 9:42
  I kind of waited until it was over.
• 9:44
  But while I was going through the experience, I was not
• 9:47
  enjoying it. So for the people listening that
• 9:51
  I think when they look at me, when they look at the
• 9:54
  connection, people dancing, they make these associations of
• 9:57
  dancing on the spot and breathing or does massage.
• 10:00
  I don't like it. I don't like the massages while
• 10:06
  I'm dancing. You know, it's one of those,
• 10:09
  like I was saying, even when we go to professional people, they
• 10:12
  ask all the questions. It's not very good.
• 10:15
  I have a hard time with my massage general.
• 10:17
  So it's something that I think it's nice for us to, again, like
• 10:23
  we talked about in the other episodes when we talked about
• 10:27
  then feeding the I come from the assumption that things that are
• 10:33
  not in the realm of the movement of dance, they are not welcome
• 10:38
  right away. I'll need to check recheck As
• 10:40
  for validation if this is OK, you know, because it's tricky.
• 10:45
  Yeah, it's all the extras like massaging, stretching or
• 10:51
  expressing and then exchanging sexual energy or things that are
• 10:56
  like more than our regular dancing.
• 11:01
  It's something that happened to me once as far as I can
• 11:04
  remember. And I think it's maybe because,
• 11:07
  you know, I'm not the most huggable, like, Gee, so people
• 11:12
  don't just come and massage me all the time.
• 11:15
  But this one time that this person did to me, I froze.
• 11:20
  And it goes back to the previous episode that Paloma was saying
• 11:24
  that sometimes when something's happening, you're just freezing.
• 11:28
  You don't know what to do. And that's what happened to me.
• 11:30
  I remember so clearly, like, I don't remember many dances.
• 11:34
  But this time I remember that I felt like so uncomfortable while
• 11:40
  at the same time feeling like, oh, this massage is not bad.
• 11:46
  But this situation is so weird. Like, what's going on?
• 11:49
  What's happening? What am I supposed to do?
• 11:52
  Is this right? Why is this happening right now
• 11:55
  that I froze? I froze.
• 11:58
  And then I kind of got out of it and I'm like, I'm OK, let's just
• 12:03
  continue dancing. I was so uncomfortable.
• 12:06
  I was confused. I kind of felt like lost in that
• 12:09
  moment. I was just lost.
• 12:11
  So to just continue the dance, I kind of like shook it off and
• 12:15
  continue. But for the rest of the dance, I
• 12:17
  was just like playing in my head and I couldn't focus anymore.
• 12:20
  So I kind of just ended the dance and went to sit down,
• 12:24
  reconnect with myself again. Because it's not that the
• 12:27
  massage was unpleasant. It was just it came out of
• 12:31
  nowhere, uninvited. No words were exchanged about
• 12:36
  it. And I think that's where the
• 12:39
  problem really starts. When things are uninvited,
• 12:43
  whether it's a massage or anything else, I stretch.
• 12:46
  And there was no consent. There was no agreement.
• 12:51
  There was no verbal discussion about it or enough intimacy
• 12:56
  between me and that person. You know, it's a different thing
• 13:00
  that both of you might start dancing and then it just
• 13:04
  happened that a little squeeze and another squeeze turning to a
• 13:08
  bigger squeeze and maybe a few things and a little massage
• 13:12
  while you're doing like somebody roll.
• 13:15
  It's between two people that have a friendship, a trust, a
• 13:21
  connection and intimacy that is not just some random person on
• 13:25
  the dance floor. So I like what you said about
• 13:29
  consent because the amount of time that I've received massage,
• 13:32
  the balance, it's pretty much like it's a good balance.
• 13:35
  The times that I like, the times that I don't and the moments
• 13:40
  that person asked was very like few moments, you know, was most
• 13:46
  of the time people doesn't ask and it started and I kind of get
• 13:50
  in this freeze mode of like, OK, I understand that person trying
• 13:54
  to be nice with me, so maybe I should accept that, you know?
• 13:59
  So I didn't felt like right to say can you do less or can you
• 14:04
  stop right away? So now when the person ask, it
• 14:08
  gives me that opportunity to express my reaction to this.
• 14:14
  You know, nowadays for sure, if the person doing something that
• 14:18
  is hurting my body, I would say like, hey, please can you stop?
• 14:21
  It's not nice. And the other thing that I want
• 14:24
  to say is I can understand or maybe I would say I can assume
• 14:29
  that people there are teaching that they may be excited to give
• 14:33
  something nice because especially something nice maybe
• 14:36
  for the body of the faller that we are doing so many cumbres, we
• 14:40
  do so much stuff that sometimes our body are tired.
• 14:44
  My point is when we go in that aspect that we can bring that
• 14:49
  element because I believe that it's additional element into the
• 14:54
  dance. It is important to ask and the
• 14:58
  person that is receiving can be a leader or a follower to
• 15:02
  remember that maybe if have the intention to be something good
• 15:07
  for me, the person is there like hey, I want to give you
• 15:09
  something that I believe that is good.
• 15:12
  I can say like hey, thank you so much, but I don't feel good.
• 15:16
  I don't feel comfortable right now receiving that or maybe like
• 15:20
  it. The pressure is too much.
• 15:23
  I don't know, because also I agree with what you say, Alison.
• 15:27
  Maybe if he's a friend of mine, I will feel much more free to
• 15:30
  say, hey, can you release the pressure?
• 15:33
  But if he's not a friend of mine, the person would say like,
• 15:36
  Oh my gosh, I'm giving massage, you know, complaining with me,
• 15:39
  you know, so much layers come with that in my mind and.
• 15:45
  In the context of the dancing, we're dancing and then the near
• 15:51
  aspect of having to have all this talk about the massage,
• 15:57
  like why don't we don't we just don't do it.
• 16:03
  What if instead we do piano better?
• 16:08
  Yeah, because I have seen people dancing and they are both doing
• 16:13
  massaging each other and I hear, I see here Papa and they seem to
• 16:18
  be both of them fairly enjoying it's daily laughing.
• 16:22
  They are exchanging some shape or form.
• 16:25
  So there was the build up. There was some sort of build up,
• 16:28
  there was some sort of spoken or unspoken conversation that led
• 16:32
  them to eventually go to the massages.
• 16:34
  And that makes sense. So I think our point here, and
• 16:38
  specifically my point is when it comes from the assumption that
• 16:42
  it is OK and it comes like, I just want to say I don't know
• 16:45
  where you know? So liking the more complicated
• 16:49
  movements, liking the more of a squeezy dance, liking the more
• 16:53
  of this more exchange dance. There is a level of build up
• 16:57
  that takes us to a place that let's call it, let's say it's
• 17:01
  outside of the regular dance mode, just out of Pyongyang.
• 17:06
  So there's a build up to that where there is, like we said in
• 17:10
  the previous episode, a process of checking.
• 17:12
  We check which I call feedback loop.
• 17:14
  And then this is the feedback loop where you are in this
• 17:17
  constant exchange with your apartment to get to that point.
• 17:20
  I think when we were requested to talk about the massages,
• 17:24
  because there was also request that came to talk about massage
• 17:26
  on the dance floor. It came from this place.
• 17:29
  What we do when it comes out of nowhere, you know, and ISO and
• 17:33
  I, our reactions was we let it happen.
• 17:36
  Hopefully it would end soon, you know, but there wasn't yet a
• 17:40
  moment that that happened to me. It doesn't happen often.
• 17:42
  OK, people, if you're watching, it doesn't happen very often.
• 17:46
  And this is not an invitation. Not an invitation.
• 17:49
  Yeah. Don't try to convince me.
• 17:51
  The last time it happened was probably 3 or 4 weekends ago.
• 17:55
  It happened once and yeah, I reacted the same way.
• 18:00
  I just waited, you know? Eventually it stops, but I'm
• 18:03
  still not in the point of saying something.
• 18:06
  And I want to talk to the teachers here because, guys, it
• 18:10
  gives me things and it makes me cringe and it makes me want to
• 18:14
  say something in the moment when I see teachers in a head
• 18:19
  movements class or something and they go like, OK, now followers
• 18:23
  turn around. Leaders give followers a
• 18:25
  massage. Give followers a massage.
• 18:27
  I'm like bro, why don't you say now leaders ask your followers
• 18:33
  would you like a massage on your shoulders?
• 18:35
  Are you OK with that? Like just change how you say,
• 18:40
  change how you put it instead of just simply assuming that the
• 18:45
  followers don't want to be touched by those leaders in a
• 18:49
  way that is not just, you know, closing brace head movement, but
• 18:53
  actually touching their neck and touching their.
• 18:55
  No, it's not OK. I know that as teachers, you may
• 19:00
  have the best intentions of like, oh, I'm going to do
• 19:03
  something nice for the followers.
• 19:05
  I'm just going to get the leaders to massage them, but do
• 19:08
  they even want it? Do they want to be touched by
• 19:11
  that person in any other way? No.
• 19:14
  So please, my advice and request to you is that don't do it or
• 19:19
  change how you say it and invite a request from the leaders.
• 19:25
  Would you like a massage? Would you like me to help you
• 19:28
  stretch something if you are feeling a little tired or a
• 19:31
  little tense because we've done an hour of head movement?
• 19:33
  Something like that. Maybe.
• 19:35
  Maybe. Very maybe.
• 19:37
  I love that approach, especially because being something that
• 19:42
  more and me still news bring more consent aspect in
• 19:46
  everything. Instead of assume that you
• 19:49
  should do things or the things that we believe they are good
• 19:53
  right away, we actually ask, do you feel comfortable with that?
• 19:59
  I remember that I participate in a class consent class.
• 20:03
  That actually had these exercise and it was a massage exercise,
• 20:07
  but everything guided from the person that is receiving, oh, I
• 20:11
  want to receive a massage in my hand and then the person starts
• 20:16
  and then the person asks. This amount of pressure is good.
• 20:20
  And then the other person, the one that is receiving is the one
• 20:23
  that guys like I want you to change for my forearm with the
• 20:27
  lighter pressure. So this for me gives so much the
• 20:31
  aspect of even something that we believe is good, it can be not
• 20:36
  true for the other person, you know?
• 20:39
  So I love that especially because guys, I will be the
• 20:42
  Angel and the devil here and very Libra because I had moments
• 20:46
  that I like it. I will not say that hey, don't
• 20:49
  do it. I don't like it, but I will be
• 20:51
  like, can you ask first or can you recheck?
• 20:55
  Hey, you restarted, this feels good for you.
• 20:57
  Depression is good. Yes or no Can check are.
• 21:01
  You comfortable with this? Are you comfortable with this?
• 21:04
  You know, and yeah, recently I had a dance.
• 21:09
  It was amazing, but it was with the person that actually knows
• 21:13
  how to do massage. And at some point he started do
• 21:15
  it and I say, can you press a little bit more on my?
• 21:19
  Since we're here. Since we're here, you're so and
• 21:23
  I know that you know how to do it.
• 21:25
  And then he just just solve something here, you know, and it
• 21:28
  was like, whoa, amazing. And we continue then.
• 21:31
  So was an amazing experience for me and especially as a follower
• 21:36
  that the person was like in this mindset of not just using my
• 21:41
  body to do movement, but in the mindset like, can I take care a
• 21:45
  little bit, you know? But again, was a person that
• 21:49
  really knows works with that know how to do it.
• 21:53
  So I need to bring that element because even me like I never did
• 22:00
  a massage course. So sometimes when I receive it
• 22:03
  in my mind comes, should I give back?
• 22:05
  I know how to give back. And then I try to do sometimes,
• 22:08
  but I do in a very soft way, because at least in the soft way
• 22:12
  I know that I will not hurt the other person, you know, But I
• 22:16
  get confused just. I think there are two very
• 22:19
  important aspects that we're talking about.
• 22:21
  The first one is the person, the receiver, realizing their
• 22:27
  limits. You know, how good I am with
• 22:29
  this thing. How would I feel about this?
• 22:31
  I don't. And then reacting to it in some
• 22:34
  shape or form. And the other one is the given,
• 22:38
  you know, so I think what happens in the dance world, and
• 22:42
  I think probably in the Muggle world as well, is that sometimes
• 22:47
  we want the other person to know what's best for us.
• 22:51
  So we want them to know that this is not OK.
• 22:55
  You know, So if somebody is massaging me, I'm receiving the
• 22:59
  massage. Sometimes it's in my business to
• 23:02
  go in the mindset he should not, she should not be doing the
• 23:06
  massage. They should know better.
• 23:09
  And I put myself in the position of helpless receiver of the
• 23:14
  massage, you know, so I think it's nice that we are talking
• 23:17
  about both sides here. And then we talk about as the
• 23:20
  receiver what you can do as the giver.
• 23:23
  For me personally, the assumption is I won't do it.
• 23:28
  I don't know how, I'm not trained.
• 23:30
  I don't know where to put in the dentist very well.
• 23:33
  You know, the moments that I have done it, sort of it was in
• 23:39
  this build up of the feedback loop, the times that I received
• 23:43
  it, I just like stayed there without putting the blame on the
• 23:47
  person I was giving, you know, because I knew who was doing the
• 23:51
  massages. People that I really like,
• 23:53
  people that I really like to dance.
• 23:55
  Every time I go to a social incident, I dance with them, you
• 23:59
  know, and I know a massage might come, but it's OK.
• 24:02
  I like to dance with them anyways, so it's not black and
• 24:05
  whites and I think that's the cool thing for me that I'm
• 24:08
  extracting from. What you're sharing is that all
• 24:12
  these layers and like you said, they're going to be the Angel
• 24:14
  and the devil at the same time. There was a massage that came
• 24:17
  out of nowhere, but I know him. I know what they can do.
• 24:23
  We are already in the build up here, so it works for me.
• 24:26
  So it's just nice, I think that we can explore all the levels
• 24:32
  and all the dimensions of this. I love what you said about build
• 24:35
  up. I kind of like a lot this word
• 24:38
  build up because everything and dance for me, it should come
• 24:41
  with the in my mind with the build up, we're going to build
• 24:45
  up a story together. Even inside of this massage
• 24:50
  aspect for me is the same. It can start with this build up
• 24:55
  story that we can check how this person is receiving or reacting
• 25:01
  because because sometimes person like relax more into that moment
• 25:06
  or sometimes they can get tense. And this can be answered too.
• 25:10
  I don't know. But instead of coming from
• 25:13
  nowhere, it's like it can be build up to.
• 25:18
  I like it a lot when we thinking about the amount of types of
• 25:22
  contacts that we can do in our dance.
• 25:25
  More lighter, more airy, more earth, more water.
• 25:31
  For me, there's so much already inside of this that the whole
• 25:35
  dance can become this massage, but because we are doing
• 25:39
  something together, you know. So I was thinking about that.
• 25:44
  That's why sometimes I'm not Even so into it to like, should
• 25:48
  I learn to give a massage? So I want to learn, but to
• 25:52
  really, really give a proper massage, you know, I will not
• 25:55
  say yet. Now I want to learn to do
• 26:00
  massage but not to do massage while dancing.
• 26:02
  The massage in general yes in life it's so cool.
• 26:05
  This because we also, I also take into account a lot,
• 26:11
  sometimes people are just doing what they think is what they're
• 26:15
  supposed to do in the environment that they are,
• 26:18
  meaning they are following reference points.
• 26:20
  Yeah, You know, someone comes in and they see a bunch of massage
• 26:23
  happening, like, oh, perhaps this is what these people do.
• 26:26
  They like it and they go Redding massage.
• 26:29
  So it's another invitation I think that we do for everyone
• 26:35
  that we sometimes request people to have way more awareness then
• 26:41
  they perhaps are prepared to have or they have at all.
• 26:45
  And that's where the shoots come in.
• 26:47
  So we want somebody sometimes that just came in to have this
• 26:50
  full awareness of how everything works, how we behave in these
• 26:54
  environments, how we do these things.
• 26:56
  And the person just came in. So the person just comes in,
• 27:00
  they're going to look around and see who are the experienced
• 27:02
  people here, who are the chiefs of this tribe, and they're going
• 27:06
  to see them going about life and they're going to just basically
• 27:08
  replicate what they're seeing. You know, so if people are
• 27:13
  teaching about stretching, these people are talking about massage
• 27:17
  and these are the reference points people would.
• 27:20
  Like OK so this is. What the cool thing is, you
• 27:23
  know, so I think it requires like a more systematic approach
• 27:28
  to it, understanding the how we can without intention to
• 27:33
  influence people's behaviors so much in what comes to dancing
• 27:38
  just by one thing we said in class once a one thing we did in
• 27:42
  a demo once, you know, like this thing, man, this thing of the
• 27:47
  demo that the follows like clap behind there, they're back, you
• 27:51
  know, that thing there. I think that thing showed up in
• 27:54
  a demo once really. And then all of the sudden
• 27:59
  people like, you know, and then the father started complaining.
• 28:02
  What the hell is going on? Where did you take this from?
• 28:05
  And I said, guys, there is a source to it.
• 28:07
  It came from this place. And then you see that it was in
• 28:11
  the context of the demo was fun, was playful, you know, was to be
• 28:15
  like, wow, look at this cool thing, but people are watching,
• 28:18
  oh, this is cool. I'm going to do it too.
• 28:22
  And that's very tricky because we are not aware of how much
• 28:28
  something we do like that in like in a second, two seconds,
• 28:32
  someone is watching and someone is going to try to replicate
• 28:36
  that, you know, and the massages is one of them.
• 28:39
  I believe. So the massage is totally one of
• 28:41
  them because I have received massages and squeezes and
• 28:46
  breathes that were not good at all.
• 28:50
  But I'm pretty sure that the person thought that they were
• 28:52
  doing something really good for me, you know, And that's the
• 28:55
  tricky. Part with a good intention.
• 28:57
  With the best of the intentions, you know, And that's so tricky
• 29:02
  because if we think about this too much, at least in my head,
• 29:06
  we don't do anything anymore. We just sit down with pissing
• 29:09
  like this, you know, all my movements are being watched, so
• 29:13
  it's not freezing. But again, just understanding
• 29:17
  that that can happen, you know? I remember an episode that I was
• 29:22
  almost the end of the social and person that I normally like to
• 29:28
  dance, but I was feeling some pain.
• 29:31
  I was already tired. And then I said like, you know
• 29:34
  what? Can you we dance tomorrow
• 29:35
  because I feel tired and I'm think I'm leaving.
• 29:38
  And then he said, you know, I can do some massage on you a
• 29:42
  little bit will be very chilled and then we're going to this.
• 29:46
  And at this night, I didn't respect my boundaries and I said
• 29:50
  yes. Who never.
• 29:53
  Who never, who never, who never. And then he started already
• 29:57
  saying it's just to adding for what we have been said like,
• 30:01
  Hey, I learned this in this class and I'm going to do it
• 30:03
  with you. And then as I said, I have this
• 30:07
  injury on my shoulder. And then he stretched like but
• 30:11
  comes from nowhere. It has no build up, has no
• 30:15
  consent about like this amount is good.
• 30:17
  How do you feel? And then I was like, you were
• 30:22
  like, no, no, no, that sorry, sorry.
• 30:25
  This hurts my shoulder. And I get like kind of guilty,
• 30:30
  you know, because I didn't respect my boundaries.
• 30:33
  I accept the massage and then again, feel like I complain
• 30:36
  about the massage, you know? And then he did a few more
• 30:40
  things and then we start to dance.
• 30:41
  But I was in my mind. And right now I'm more in my
• 30:44
  mind with this topic because it is about that mostly people
• 30:49
  maybe look at this trying to replicate it, but it requires so
• 30:55
  much of awareness. So much.
• 30:58
  Consent and skill. Like it requires skill, these
• 31:02
  are. Especially when you're dealing
• 31:04
  with a spine. I'm a big believer that the
• 31:07
  spine is connected to the entire body in ways that I don't
• 31:13
  understand. But I do believe it, you know,
• 31:17
  like a little touch here, a little something there.
• 31:20
  It can mess up with other parts of the body that are not just,
• 31:25
  you know, the outer muscle of the body, but things really
• 31:29
  inside of the body. So knowledge, man, it is amazing
• 31:34
  if we wanted to understand more about things.
• 31:37
  Even when you say law like you look a group doing thing and
• 31:42
  check first before you trying to replicate it like check with
• 31:47
  yourself. This is a line with you.
• 31:50
  First of all, we start to jump in right away and check.
• 31:55
  For me like this word check I can repeat so many times because
• 32:00
  this process of self observation can help us so much to
• 32:06
  understand about where we are in the present moment.
• 32:10
  We like this, how much we like this, we want it continuous, yes
• 32:15
  or no. It can be a massage can be about
• 32:18
  the topic that we talked in the last episode, but self
• 32:22
  observation can help us in so many aspects and in a massage
• 32:29
  one it's a very strong one too for me.
• 32:33
  Yeah, I'm thinking about these things that we're talking and
• 32:36
  I'm realizing when I dance with followers who I know are body.
• 32:40
  Workers. They don't do massage.
• 32:42
  They no, they don't. But I think when you work with
• 32:46
  the body, when you learn how to work with the body, it does
• 32:48
  inform your touch. So the quality of touch changes.
• 32:54
  So you don't need to actually make the massage like to press
• 32:58
  the muscle, but the quality of the touch is so in heightened.
• 33:03
  This instantiative touch is so in heightened that the pressure,
• 33:07
  the amount of pressure that you put in a simple hold and you see
• 33:11
  that there is awareness there. There is a quality there.
• 33:13
  There is different from the actual pressing in to the
• 33:17
  muscle, you know. And that has been my experience
• 33:19
  as well when I realized the other things that I did in my
• 33:22
  life that I take, it's not that I take to the dance, it's that
• 33:26
  they are downloaded into the body and you are never the same
• 33:29
  again. You just inform how you touch,
• 33:31
  how you move, how you look, how you speak.
• 33:33
  So I think when you learn about, for example, the massage or when
• 33:38
  you learn about anything related to the body, it doesn't mean
• 33:41
  that you need to go and transport it exactly how you
• 33:45
  learned to the dance floor. Just transport you because you
• 33:50
  are now a different person because you have this knowledge
• 33:52
  in your body, you know, and that alone can bring so much joy just
• 33:57
  because of the increase in perception sensitivity, the way
• 34:02
  that you touch alone is a massage, you know, because it's
• 34:05
  not the massage of pressing in, but it's the massage of the good
• 34:09
  relaxation feeling that comes after you receive a good one.
• 34:14
  You know, one of the course that I did actually needed to
• 34:17
  redefine what the word massage means because we always relate
• 34:21
  massage to pressing in and doing these things.
• 34:24
  And that's the meaning that we used for these episodes.
• 34:27
  But in these courses that I did, massage just meant any sort or
• 34:32
  any kind of aware, informed, conscious touch, you know, And I
• 34:37
  liked that a lot because it was because I was always associating
• 34:42
  massage to utility me, you know, best year.
• 34:46
  I love what you said. It reminds me of SO that few
• 34:51
  times and quiet times that I dance with someone and because
• 34:57
  of this amount of presence, amount of awareness, like I was
• 35:02
  experienced something on my back, on my lower back.
• 35:06
  And then during the dance, I felt the pain dissolved and just
• 35:10
  also because of the amount of silence in that dance and I love
• 35:16
  that. I was like, wow, what happened
• 35:19
  here? You know, I felt my body, I was
• 35:20
  tired, I was stiff. And then with the embrace, with
• 35:24
  the motion of the movements, I was like.
• 35:27
  Exactly a massage like sensation without.
• 35:31
  Yes, Oh yeah, good memory. That is exactly what we're
• 35:38
  talking about here and in the previous episode.
• 35:41
  It's all about awareness. It's all about consent.
• 35:44
  It's all about good communication and to understand
• 35:48
  that when we're in a dense scene, we may see things, but
• 35:54
  that doesn't mean that this is normal.
• 35:57
  And if you're ever questioning, is this normal, go and ask that
• 36:02
  specific question to somebody else in the community or to a
• 36:05
  teacher and say, hey, I've seen people doing this.
• 36:09
  Is this something that you can do with anybody or is this
• 36:12
  something just between good friends or partners?
• 36:16
  Because there's so many things in the community that I often
• 36:21
  have to tell the students and say, hey guys, this is part of
• 36:24
  that 10 or maybe 20% sometimes of things that only dance
• 36:28
  partners do, only people who really know each other for a
• 36:32
  long time due to each other. Don't assume that this is just
• 36:36
  part of the hi, nice to meet you, Let's have a dance and you
• 36:40
  can do that with that person because it's just a point.
• 36:44
  There are many, many, many things in this dance and we
• 36:47
  speak for this dance. I'm sure there are other things
• 36:50
  in other dances. Then we really, really have to
• 36:54
  be careful. And yes, you may have taken a
• 36:56
  workshop with a very amazing, highly skilled teacher in a
• 37:03
  certain niche thing that in the realm of like dance and arts,
• 37:09
  maybe there's a connection, maybe there's a benefit, but is
• 37:14
  it part of the dance that you dance with everybody?
• 37:19
  Probably not, Probably not. So let's be careful with that
• 37:23
  and let's become more informed and also more respectful in the
• 37:27
  community. All righty then, everybody.
• 37:30
  With that in mind, we want to thank you once again for being
• 37:34
  here with us and participating. In our.
• 37:37
  Episodes as a listener and thank you once again Guy and Paloma
• 37:42
  for being here for another episode.
• 37:45
  Thank you. Everybody.
• 37:46
  Think what is Sunny that might not have been the last episodes.
• 37:50
  Yes, with Paloma, yeah. We're going to be travelling for
• 37:53
  several months next year so we see more of her.
• 37:58
  You're going to see me back-to-back.
• 38:00
  You're. Going to be back to me.
• 38:02
  Back to me back. Many times.
• 38:04
  A pleasure to be here guys. Yes, we love you and we hope to
• 38:09
  have you back as many times as possible.
• 38:11
  So thank you once again, BHS, BHS, Abrasus and Ciao.