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Grief and Friendship: Showing Up After Infant Loss with Michelle Valiukenas · Friendship IRL: Real Talk About Friendship, Community, and What It Actually Takes

• 0:02
  Alex Alexander: All right, gang.
• 0:02
  Alex Alexander: Here's to nights that turn into mornings and friends that turn into family. Cheers. Hello, hello, and welcome to the Friendship IRL podcast. I'm your host, Alex Alexander. Each week we talk about what is working(and what is not) in our friendships, community and connections. Have you ever wished you could sit down and have a conversation about what is really going on in your friendships? Well, you found your people. Join us as we dive into real life stories and explore new ways to approach these connections. Together, we're reimagining the rules of friendship
• 0:58
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: I need to tell you something before we start this episode. I recorded this conversation with Michelle Valiukenas over two years ago, and then I sat on it, not because it wasn't good, not because it wasn't important, but because shortly after we recorded just a few weeks, some friends of mine unexpectedly lost their son, Cameron in the NICU after just a few days of life, and suddenly I couldn't figure out how to record narrations for this episode without talking about how I was navigating A similar situation as I supported my friends without acknowledging that everything Michelle and I discussed, the secondary losses, the friends who disappear, the ones who show up, the things people get wrong, it was all unfolding in real time with people that I care deeply about, people who are going through their absolute lowest days. And if there is anything that you should know about me by this point, I love this work, but I will never do it at the expense of my friends or their relationships. So this episode sat in my drive for two years. A few months ago, I finally told my friend about it, that I had this conversation that was sitting here, but I didn't know what to do with it, because I didn't know how to do the narrations without talking about Cam. And she immediately looked at me and said release it. She told me that she had sought out stories of people who lost a child and had a very hard time finding them. She had dug through podcast archives, let alone finding episodes about how to show up for friends after such a life shattering loss. So here it is. I am very relieved to finally be releasing this episode to you. It is so near and dear to my heart. Today I'm talking with Michelle Valiukenas. Michelle is the proud mom of her Angel Sweet Pea who she lost due to miscarriage, her Angel daughter, Colette Louise, who she lost at nine days old, and her only living child, her rainbow baby, Elliot Miguel, inspired by her journey with Colette. Michelle and her husband, founded the Colette Louise Tisdahl Foundation, whose mission is to improve outcomes of pregnancy, childbirth, prematurity and infancy, as well as aid in the grieving process through financial assistance, education and advocacy. Their flagship program financially assists families dealing with high risk and complicated pregnancies, NICU stays and loss, this conversation is about grief, yes, but it's also about friendship, about the secondary losses that happen when you lose a child, about the friends who ghost you, the ones who try to fix it, the ones who will just sit with you in the ick of it All, if you're supporting someone through grief, or if you're in it yourself, I hope that this conversation gives you permission, permission to show up imperfectly, permission to have the hard conversations, permission to let the peaks and valleys exist at the same time.
• 4:35
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: And with that, let's get into the episode.
• 4:40
  Alex Alexander: Hi, Michelle,
• 4:42
  Michelle Valiukenas: Hi.
• 4:43
  Alex Alexander: I'm on a high today. You're my second podcast recording of the day. And the more I do these just I'm so grateful to get to have these conversations any and all, even the hard ones will just set the precedent for people we're doing. Another podcast about grief and what it's like to experience friendships and community when really hard times hit. So thank you for being here and willing to talk about the hard times. Talk about the hard things. Yeah, yeah. For sure, definitely. Yeah. I would love to share a little bit of your story, whatever you want to share.
• 5:24
  Michelle Valiukenas: So I am a mom to three, only one living child. So I lost Sweet Pea to miscarriage in May of 2017 at about seven and a half weeks, and that had happened after a very long road of infertility and then getting pregnant on our first round of IVF, dealt with that and survived that, and then got pregnant again on our third round of IVF, and then I was hospitalized at 21 weeks pregnant with preeclampsia, and delivered her at 24 weeks and five days, she went straight to the NICU clutt and spent her short life in there. So nine days a NICU before we lost her.
• 6:06
  Michelle Valiukenas: When I saw... Alex... when I saw your post about this podcast, I was like, oh my god, this is something that is really important. Because to a certain extent, I think most people get the like loss, the grief. Your child died, your person died, right? Like, they get that, but I don't think that they that we spent enough time talking about, like, those secondary losses that stem from that. And so I lost friends who just couldn't deal with it, didn't know how to approach it, people who wanted to fix it, and when I told them they couldn't fix it, you know, just really, then didn't know what to do, and just sort of ghosted me in a, you know, way.
• 6:46
  Michelle Valiukenas: And it's really interesting, because it happens, it's not every friend. It's usually like the ones that surprise you the most. I have a really good friend who really just was trying to fix it, and, you know, kept saying, Okay, let's take a class. Let's take a road trip.
• 6:59
  Michelle Valiukenas: Let's do this. Let's do that at a time when it was hard to just get out of bed and function as a human being, right? Like, nothing, nothing major, just like getting on the bed, showering, yeah. And so when I told her, like, that's not really helpful, and you know, you need to just sort of accept that you're not going to fix this. I think she was very shocked that I said that, and just that I didn't hear from her for quite a while, and that, you know, really, ultimately, was a test, and it's sort of, we don't really talk anymore, and, you know, it was a good friend, and that's, you know, it's painful to go through that and to lose that
• 7:40
  Alex Alexander: and and you're already in pain, and now we're adding, like, layers and layers, yeah,
• 7:46
  Michelle Valiukenas: and the different ways that friends just sort of treat you and react right? Be like, Oh my God. We can't, you know, we can't talk about baby, we can't do this, we can't do that. And I wanted to talk about client, and I still, I love my kids, all of them, you know. And I think the people that really showed up for us were the people who sat there and said, like, tell us about her or, you know, just sat there with us and sat in that uncomfortable silence and emotion and all of that. And so, you know, I think that was really what I started thinking of. And, you know, as we talked before this, and before we scheduled this and everything, you know, I also started thinking about all the good things, right? You know, because while there's all that stuff that's easy to like, kind of focus on the losses of friends, we also had some friends that really like just came through for us in amazing ways, and we made new friends. You know, I have lost parent friends now.
• 8:45
  Michelle Valiukenas: Just get it on a whole different level, right? And that's really important as well. And so it's right, it's a lot of loss. It's a lot of, you know, been good things, but it just, I was in my mid 30s when we lost and I kind of thought, you know, my group of friends was more or less kind of set and, you know, I expected that with kids, I would have a couple of, you know, parent friends and that kind of thing and but, you know, I pretty much Just thought this will be my group of friends, and for that to dramatically change was really shocking to me, and was really part of in dealing with pain, you know, just a real loss of that as well.
• 10:41
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: So again, I had recorded this episode, and it's been sitting here for quite some time because I couldn't bring myself to record narration and pretend like nothing was going on. But I did use this episode. I actually went back and listened to this episode. I referenced this conversation with Michelle in.
• 11:04
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: In how I showed up for my friends, and I shared things Michelle had said with my other friends, especially the ones who were, like, really on the front lines, you know, the first points of contact for these friends, because I would say I'm like, one line removed. You know, one of the biggest things we did was immediately make sure that we all got very used to talking about Cam, using his name, even when his parents went around, when we would list off all of our friends, kids, like, if we were like, counting out who had who we always included Cam's name on the list, and still do to this day. One of the very first messages I sent my friend after a while, you know, because we were going through their closest friends for a bit, but when they kind of opened up communication again, the message included a lot of things I wanted to say, but I also said, Hey, I vividly remember this like being the sign off. I said,"Hey, I want you to know that all your people, all of us friends, we are talking about Cam, even when you're not here, and we will keep talking about him." So I'm really grateful to Michelle for this conversation, because I really did use it as inspiration for how to show up.
• 12:33
  Alex Alexander: Yeah, I mean, society's narratives really tell us that we're going to meet our people young, and then we should do everything we can to hang on to them, and we're better if we can hang on to them and the real friends, the true friends, will stick with you through literally anything. So then when these really big things happen in life, and that is not your experience, there's so many layers, like, Did I do something wrong? Are they terrible people?
• 13:07
  Alex Alexander: We just can't simplify it. I don't think that much. There's so many components of what is happening in that very emotionally charged transition, and it's affecting every single part of life,
• 13:30
  Michelle Valiukenas: right. And I think, like, you know, the other thing is, your friendships change naturally, right? And so even in the good things, right?
• 13:36
  Michelle Valiukenas: You know, when friends of mine had kids earlier, our relationship changed, right? It just has to all of those kinds of things that morph and change.
• 13:47
  Michelle Valiukenas: And that's not a bad thing.
• 13:47
  Michelle Valiukenas: That's growth. That's really, like the important part, and I think that that's really something we don't talk enough about, is that, you know, in different transitions, good or bad, you change, and so, by extension, your relationships change. And that doesn't mean anything. You know, the friends I had in college, I mean, I just, we just got back from vacation, one of my good friends lives in Arizona, and so we got to see her, and she and I went to college together, and saw each other all the time in college, and then saw each other fairly regularly. And then, you know, a couple years later, we were both, happened to be single, happened to have, fairly recently, both gotten out of serious relationships, and I spent a lot of time with her, right? So we went and we went and we drank and we had fun, and we did all of that stuff, and we saw each other, and we brought our sons to see each other, right, like, and so that was just a different change. And then, you know, she moved out of the area, and so, you know, all of those things, right? And it's all like good stuff, but just we ended up in different things, you know, we got married, we, we had kids, we, you know, all of that.
• 14:54
  Alex Alexander: And yeah, you're different. You're different people in this friendship now,
• 14:57
  Michelle Valiukenas: and that's okay. Yes, I loved the time we had together when we were in our 20s and just starting out. And, you know, learning all those things and doing all the stupid things that I'm sure we did, that we learned and grow from.
• 15:15
  Michelle Valiukenas: And now I'm really glad that I can be with her and that we can talk as moms and all of that, and we can have those experiences. And I think that that's something we just don't spend enough time talking about that like that changes. And that's actually kind of fun, you know, to sit there and to say, like, Okay, we did this at one point in our lives when we were these people, and now we're not, and that's okay, and those kinds of things, and I think that that's really important too, is to recognize those things.
• 15:44
  Alex Alexander: I say this thing that a very dear friend of mine, a family, chosen family member of mine. He always brings me back to this, as I say, like we're so focused on maintaining, like, the peak of our friendship, right? So when you're younger, that's a really societally pushed narrative, is that college friend and that you. Carefree, and the parties and the doing the things and whatever, and like, that's a peak. And people tell you, people say things like, Oh, well, these are the best days of your life, and you can never get these back. So soak them in, right? All this scarcity, and if it's not that peak, then it's lesser than but the thing is, we can't maintain peaks. It's like, it's no different than, you know, an athletic pursuit. You can't be at race day conditioning forever. So it's like, enjoy the peak while you're at it, and then when the peak is gone, you're gonna find a new peak, but it's gonna be different, and you can't compare them. They're just different.
• 16:48
  Alex Alexander: But you have to enjoy it, right?
• 16:52
  Alex Alexander: So now your parents and you get to be together with your sons and play and like, that's a new peak, and that will be here, and at some point that will also go away, and you'll have to find a new one. Like, we just have to keep finding new great moments in our current version of friendship as our current selves, which are different than our old selves. I think you're so right.
• 17:13
  Michelle Valiukenas: That's so just critical and important. And one of the best experiences we had was a friend of ours. He was actually a friend of my husband became a friend of ours. He and his wife. He was actually the realtor when we bought our house, and we didn't hear from him or his wife, and they don't have children. And it was probably like six months after clet died, he sent us both a very nice message, saying I screwed up as a friend. I didn't know what to say at first, so I waited, and then I waited, and then I felt like it had been too long. Oh yeah. Then I didn't know what to do, and he was like, and then finally, the other day, I just was like, I'm gonna reach out and tell you this. Like, just apologize for not being there and immediacy.
• 17:55
  Michelle Valiukenas: And it was one of those, like, that moment really, like, went from, yeah, he was a friend. He was a super close friend, to now, like, he's a very close friend of ours, and, you know, his wife and so, like, I think, just that kind of change of being vulnerable too, and saying, I can't undo what I, you know, what I didn't do, and I can't go back in time, but I can be here and I can say, like, I am so sorry for not being here when you needed Me, and now I'm going to be here. And, you know, I think that's really important, especially because I always say, like, it's easy to show up for the funeral, the memorial, the No, whatever, it's easy to show up for that moment because it's a standard time we kind of, like, are, sort of know the motions, yeah, you know the emotions, right? Like, you know, you go to this, you do that, you know, you know that kind of thing. So it's very easy to show up for that. It's much harder to show up a year later, two years later, it's much harder, you know. And we found this like, you know, people showed up for the memorial and then didn't acknowledge Colette's birthday, you know. Or, you know, people showed up and said this and then when? So Colette died May 31 so Mother's Day had already passed, but then didn't really show up for Father's Day for my husband or for Mother's Day the following year. Those kinds of things where it's like in a lot of ways, I will say to people, if you didn't do the work, reach out now, because less people are reaching out anyways, and so they might really appreciate. A, the apology and the like vulnerability, but then B, that somebody at that moment is going to start really caring and showing up and doing all of that, and I commend him. I mean, I didn't, prior to everything happening, I would not have thought he would have been the guy that would have showed up and, you know, stood up and said, I screwed up.
• 19:49
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Put the milestones in your calendar.
• 19:52
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Just do it wherever you track things like birthdays, anniversaries. I know that it might feel odd to put the anniversary of a passing in your calendar, but you'll want to remember I also have Cam's birthday in my calendar. It repeats every year. I have other friends who have lost, maybe parents. I have that day in the calendar. I have all sorts of days in the calendar, because you will want to remember, so you can reach out and also, yes, you might not be sending a Mother's Day card, but please send some sort of acknowledgement about how terrible that day is. If you have a friend or friends who have lost a child like this, because I think it's helpful, I am actually going to read you the message that I sent my friend on her first Mother's Day After losing Cam. Now remember my mom passed away when I was 13, so that'll help this message make a little more sense. I wrote "From one gal who understands that Mother's Day effing sucks to another, it's.
• 21:06
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Wild that a Hallmark holiday can make some of us feel so alone, so on the outside and so without the people we want to be beside us. Cam is so lucky to have you as a mom, even if he isn't in your arms. It's just not fair.
• 21:26
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: There's no other way to say it.
• 21:26
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: It's just not fair. I hope you are doing whatever you need to do today. There's absolutely no right way to get through today.
• 21:36
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You aren't alone though, sending hugs."
• 21:44
  Michelle Valiukenas: So I often say like, when people lose Right? Like with we all say it, I've said it. I know I'm responsible for saying it, and it's like, please let me know if there's anything you need. Yes, when you're overwhelmed by grief, that is, like, too hard of a concept to think about.
• 21:58
  Michelle Valiukenas: Like, oh, I have to identify what I need, and then I have to think of you would be helpful to do this, and then I have to, like, contact you. It's too much. And so I don't do it right? And we just don't and, you know, I think instead is to say things like, I would like to bring you a meal. Yes, is tomorrow Good day? Or, you know, whatever? I think that's a really unhelpful thing. One of the things my sister in law did when I was hospitalized for three weeks, and, you know, so it was kind of crazy. The unplanned was she would say, like, I really like doing laundry. Do you want me to do your laundry? Right? Like, totally never, ever thought about that.
• 22:35
  Alex Alexander: I'm going to target. Can I pick you anything up?
• 22:38
  Michelle Valiukenas: Exactly I'm going to target. What can I get you? Or, you know, I have a very good friend who is famous for she'll talk to you. She'll hear the things. She now doesn't live here anymore, so she moved and and she'll say, Okay, I am going to call you on such and such day. And she'll choose a day, and she'll say, you know, it's usually a couple days a week, whatever is that okay for you?
• 22:57
  Michelle Valiukenas: And it's nice, right? Because, you know, then, and it's definitely been at moments when it's like, okay, I have a phone call with Megan tomorrow. Okay, great. And it's sort of, you can have that marker. That's really a great thing that she's taught me, that she does and then says, and I'm here any other time you need. But she's giving me a specific she's giving me a point. Those are so great. I've started developing this for anybody that I know that suffers any sort of loss or anything is, you know, reaching out and then saying, but prefacing this was like, I do not need a response.
• 23:35
  Michelle Valiukenas: I just want to let you know I'm, you know, I'm thinking of you.
• 23:38
  Michelle Valiukenas: I'm sorry, whatever, because when I had that from people, that was so great, right? You know, I had a family friend who they had also lost years before, and she would send me, you know, text messages and and emails and stuff like this. Sometimes was just like a heart, you know, just a little emoji heart.
• 23:58
  Michelle Valiukenas: Sometimes it was just like, you're on my mind today, or, you know, anything like that. And those were great, like, just touch points, because then it didn't feel so alone. And I think especially with baby loss, baby loss feels very isolating.
• 24:11
  Michelle Valiukenas: I think any grief feels like that, but baby loss feels really, really isolating. And so it was just nice to, like, have those kind of inputs where people just were thinking of me, right, like something so simple, they were just thinking of me.
• 24:26
  Michelle Valiukenas: And that was, you know, enough
• 24:28
  Alex Alexander: when you were going through this, right?
• 24:31
  Alex Alexander: Because we were talking about the secondary loss and realizing that people you thought would reach out weren't, was that like a conscious thing that you were thinking about after the fact was that, like later when you were evaluating this hazy period of time, when do you think it like hit you that things weren't what you thought they would be?
• 24:57
  Michelle Valiukenas: I think as time passes, right? You know, and we all have, I mean, I think every friend we know kind of like how often we hear from them, right? You know? I think like the friends I have that I don't hear from them that often, but when I do, it's like, we've just gone right back to where we were at. And we do that. But you know, when it's friends that you feel like you've you hear from fairly often, fairly regularly, in some form, and then you don't hear from them, right? I think you start to be like, there's something off here, and I'm not hearing from these people, right? And they're probably, I mean, for me, talking about the one friend that I really did lose, it was also the person that, you know, in my mental list of people that I reached out to regularly, she was in it, and all of a sudden it felt very weird to reach out to her. I felt like I didn't want to. And I think that was really actually, now that I'm kind of talking through it like, I think that was actually the realization was things would happen, and I didn't think of contacting her. And I think that that's really where you start realizing a lot of those things.
• 25:59
  Michelle Valiukenas: It's like, that's not the person I thought of to contact over this one thing, right? And whether it be, you know, I found out we went to high school together, so. Whether it be like I found out something about her, you know, an old teacher or a classmate, or something like that, and I didn't contact her, that told me a lot.
• 26:17
  Alex Alexander: So let me get this straight, because I think I want to, I want to see if I'm hearing this right. Because, yeah, part of doing these interviews is me seeing if my observations that are in my book and whatever supported so this friend that you thought you would talk to what you talked to her about before the loss was mainly like historic parts of your life, things that reminded you of each other, or old memories or times of the past that you were reliving. Were you talking much about like your present life, and I don't just mean filling each other in. I mean like actually talking about what was happening, you know, I'm saying,
• 26:57
  Michelle Valiukenas: yeah, no, no, totally, totally. I think in this particular case, looking back on it, we weren't having those conversations. I think we were talking, the more filling each other in, and the more like day to day kind of things, but, you know, we weren't having the conversations. And I think largely was, you know, we were at very different points in our lives, but we weren't having those kind of deep conversations. And I think that that's also something, and I'm glad you asked me in this way, is that that also was a recognition of mine about a lot of friends. It was like, Oh, we really, we had more of a surface friendship. We weren't really doing the deep dive uncomfortable conversation.
• 27:41
  Alex Alexander: I mean, people are gonna say it's a surface friendship, and that might be one way to describe it, but when I listen to that, what I hear is when you were talking, sure you were filling each other in on life, present life, but you weren't really like doing life together. You didn't have to be in each other's houses or go grocery shopping or, you know, she didn't have to deal with you as a parent whose attention is being dragged away. I mean, this is with your now, son, is what I'm referring to there. But you know, when you talked, you could kind of revert a little bit to this version you previously were. And sure, you kind of acknowledged this new version, but you didn't have to live with the highs, lows, realities, whatever of that. So it's likely, then, in my mind, I'm like, Okay, well, you really didn't build necessarily a new version of your friendship as these new adult people. You just kind of strung along the old version. But you aren't really those people anymore, so there's not a lot of sustenance there.
• 28:50
  Alex Alexander: And so it would make sense then, in my mind, that when this really big event happens in your life, you are firmly now a new person. You're not even like one version out from the person she really knows. You're like 3x we're like, 10 versions now different, but because the version, like she was operating off of, or knew is so far back, you kind of almost were like, I don't even know how to show up for you. What do you like? What does your day to day look like?
• 29:24
  Alex Alexander: What people live around you and are in your life, and who really are they? And can I contact them like you just don't have a lot of information to work off of, either, let alone even just starting to have those deeper, more present, real talk conversations, because you weren't really having those for a while, right?
• 29:50
  Michelle Valiukenas: Yeah, no, for sure. And I think that that's very true, and I think that can more often change, because, as you were talking about this, I was thinking, you know, I have some friends from college that we were kind of like, when we get back together, it's sort of like we're just the college versions,
• 30:03
  Alex Alexander: yes, which is, which is like, beautiful and fun, love.
• 30:07
  Michelle Valiukenas: And I, you know this, and yet some of those people, because then we, you know, had these similar experiences, right? And I'm thinking like one of my college friends who had children in the NICU, right? All of a sudden, yes, she didn't lose her kids, but she had this knowledge and this basis, and we were both moms, and we could do this, then we had this other level of renewed friendship, because we had had these experiences, right? So yes, we still have a little bit of that, like bringing up college and being, you know, and laughing about it and doing all that stuff, but there's also this other like, and now we're adults. And so yes, they had these fun times together, and let's laugh about them, and let's enjoy them and all of that. But also now here's this other level of friendship as well. And I think, yeah, those are great. I mean, you want the friends that you can go back to and say and kind of relive some of your your memories, right? The people who knew you before you know. You were, like, I always say before I was a boring mom, right? The people who knew me when I when I did, like, you know, really cool, fun stuff, and all of the stories and the time we spent together in these, like, very, you know, developmental stages, right?
• 31:20
  Alex Alexander: They're all important. They're all important, and they're all beautiful, and they all serve their value. But my thing is that I don't think we have presently, currently. I mean, my book is coming out, and all this is in there. We don't have, like, the language or the structure to understand what we have. So then these big, catastrophic life events happen, and because we just have these really simple ways of understanding friendship that are kind of this all or nothing, whatever, had you understood this about this friendship before it happened, you probably wouldn't have expected her to show up, and maybe that would have saved the friendship, because You would have had different expectations, and you would have let it go, and you would have put less pressure on it. Maybe the friendship would have ended another time. Maybe it would have you would have just seen it as more of a past friendship earlier, whatever. It doesn't matter, but we're all operating with not a lot of thought, intention, understanding, of our friendships, and then it's just creating even more frustration and sadness and action that isn't really building what we want. You know?
• 32:46
  Michelle Valiukenas: Yeah, no, I completely agree, right? And I think of sort of what you said at the beginning, right? This like view of, you know, once you have these friends at these, like pivotal moments in time, right? Whether it's the college friends, high school friend, it's the grade school friend that that has to remain that friend and that friend level all the way through, yes, and it doesn't, right? You know, there are friends I have had at various points in my life that, you know, were those, like, very deep and we had those really, real conversations and all of that. And then that changed, as, you know, life changed, right?
• 33:20
  Michelle Valiukenas: And it's not to say, yeah, some of them are not really part of my life anymore. Some of them are not really part of my life.
• 33:26
  Michelle Valiukenas: But like, when I do get together and I do see them like, it's great and I love it. And, you know, some are just, it just changed, right? The relationship changed. And that's all, okay.
• 33:36
  Michelle Valiukenas: There's no reason why a friendship can't morph and change. And I think, and that you can let go of some people,
• 33:46
  Alex Alexander: oh, yeah, nothing wrong with letting go.
• 33:51
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: if you are like Alex, that was a lot of analysis, and I am very confused where that came from.
• 33:58
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: It came from my Roots of Connection framework, which you can hear more about in Episode 12. It's a way for you to analyze what is holding your friendships together, which, in turn, can help you understand how they would weather a storm, like losing a child.
• 34:20
  Michelle Valiukenas: And I agree totally, you know, I think it's also just being honest about how you can show up in the world, right? And, you know, how can I be there? You know, right now, in this moment, and being really honest with them,
• 34:31
  Alex Alexander: like, I think it's more about the conversation and the honest and the authentic and the real, right? Maybe even say, like, my life looks really good right now. I know you're in a valley. My life looks really good. My life is all really overwhelming. I can do these things for you. I can text you every week. I can pick up your things at Target. I can do this that the other thing, like, I think the conversation is so important, maybe almost more important than the actions.
• 35:04
  Michelle Valiukenas: No, no, I agree. And like, I think you know just we're all going through something at all times, right? And, you know, it takes our time. Just the day to day life that we have takes our time and resources from us. And it's fair to say, I'm not like there yet, and, you know, and I'm thinking like, I have a friend that runs a mentor program for lost parents, right? And, and and that's how I met her, right?
• 35:28
  Michelle Valiukenas: And I consider her a very good friend, because she and I have, like, developed this friendship based on our stories and based on just knowing each other and all of that. And she sent me an email and asked me to take on a mentor or my team, and I sort of sat on it for like a day, and I was like, and finally I reached out to her, and I was like, she wants to be contacted by phone, and I don't have it in me to sit on the phone with us. And I said, So if, and I've done previous things where, you know, it's been text and email on like, if she's good with that, I can do that. Like, I just, I can't show up on the phone right now. And, like. She heard it, and, you know, she kind of laughed about it, and she was like, Okay, thanks for your honesty. And you know, she's like, I'm gonna see if I can find somebody else. And if not, I'm gonna circle back with her and see if this works. Yeah, great. She found something else, and that was fine. And you know, I think I sat on it for a little bit because I felt bad. Yeah, my friend asked me to do something I knew I was not in the place to sit on the phone and hear somebody's sob story. I just wasn't, you know, and so I think there's also that to say I am not there right now. So can we just, like, table this, yeah, and go back
• 36:43
  Alex Alexander: right the conversation? Because the other option would have been you either doing the thing that felt wrong to you, like you was right, draining didn't work, whatever, or ghosting the whole situation and that that like not even having the conversation, is what is costing so many people in their friendships. It's like, well, if I can't do it, then I'll just ignore it. And that's, I think, what is most hurtful and impactful. Quite often I'm saying that with like a I don't really know that, but in this moment, in this conversation, that's really what it feels like, is not having the conversation just is such a major reason that friendships are on the struggle bus.
• 37:32
  Michelle Valiukenas: And it's things like, you know, one of the things I was thinking of when you were talking to is, so I have, she's a friend of mine.
• 37:38
  Michelle Valiukenas: She's actually my, like, one of my sister's best friends. So I've seen her grow up, and, you know, their friendship evolve and change and go through all these sort of peaks and she consistently. I still think that there are people that grew up around us that think she actually is my sister, because she wouldn't call herself my sister. So I think that there are probably people who are like, wait, I think you're related. And I'm like, No, we're not. But she was pregnant, and she had babies, maybe, like, seven or eight months after we had lost Colette and so she reached out to my sister, and she said, You know, I'm inviting your mom to a baby shower. I want to invite Michelle, but I don't want to hurt her, which I do. And you know, my sister's advice was, I think she would be really hurt if you didn't invite her. I don't think she'll go. I don't think that's where she's at, but I think she will appreciate that she was invited, and give him the option, yes, and that's what I did. Feel like I got in and, you know, it was a little painful. I was like, oh, okay, baby shower, okay. And then he was like, but I was still acknowledged, right? The decision wasn't made for me. It was still like, you are part of my life, and I would love to have you there, and I also get you not coming, yes, and that was really beautiful for me. And I got online, and I sent her a gift, and, you know, did all of that, and you know, later, then was able to tell her, like, thank you for allowing me the option. Because when I was getting on the other side, were a lot of people who just kept things from me right, like, Oh no, we can't invite her to this.
• 39:19
  Michelle Valiukenas: And, you know, that kind of thing. And it's like, no, give somebody the chance to show up or to not show up, or to say what they want to do, and have that dialog and have that ability to say that, because it's so important. And I was more hurt when I found out about invites that were just kept from me, yeah, because that felt like, well, thanks, right? Is a different, sort of different way of ghosting, right? And that sort of just feels really terrible and really tough to be in, you know. And it was similar the people who showed up and just said, and this was, you know, a colleague, a mentor, kind of a friend. And I hadn't seen her for a little while, and she saw me, and she said, People tell me I'm not supposed to talk about Colette with you. And she said, but I don't personally find it comfortable to just ignore what would you like? And I said, I'd love to talk about my daughter. So powerful. I said, Don't you love talking about your kids? And she said, Absolutely. And I said, Okay, well, I still do that didn't go away. And so she said, Okay. And we talked about our kids, and we had those conversations, right?
• 40:30
  Michelle Valiukenas: And, and I just was so grateful that she acknowledged this. Of the message she was getting was, don't even acknowledge this, right? And I think that's a message of a different generation. And, you know, that's kind of thing. And, and she was saying, like, but I don't want to make that decision for you. So what is it that you want, you know? And so it was really, it was nice because I was able to talk about her, and able to, you know, to sort of be like, Okay, well, let's talk about other things, you know, all the same time. And, you know, I think those are those kinds of things. Things where it's just, like, really showing up and asking, you know, what do you mean? What feels good to you
• 41:13
  Alex Alexander: when you're saying the previous generation thing? My brain was thinking like so often. We're trying to, kind of, like, control the environment. We're trying to keep it nice, neutral, happy, keep that peak. We're trying to do actions that will we can anticipate the outcome, right?
• 41:34
  Alex Alexander: And what we're saying, I think what we can boil it down to, is stop doing that right, right?
• 41:38
  Alex Alexander: Just have the conversation be present and allow the pieces to fall, how they may right, even the baby shower invite, she allowed space for you to show up, to not show up, like she thought you may not want to come, but maybe you did. Maybe you went, maybe you walked in the door. Maybe you were fine, or maybe you immediately were like, I really wanted to try for you. I cannot do this. I love you. Goodbye and left. Just allow for whatever happens, instead of trying to control the outcome and keep it nice, neutral, happy. You know, peaks and valleys are happening in the same room on the same invite in the same party at the same time, and like there needs to be space for all of it. If we try and shut out the people in the valleys and allow them no space, they already feel like they aren't allowed to take up space, we're just putting them in a deeper valley.
• 42:45
  Michelle Valiukenas: You're absolutely right. I mean, it's sort of like you have to do it in this way, right? So, you know, if you love somebody and they're having a baby, you have to be at the baby shower, right?
• 42:53
  Michelle Valiukenas: And if you're not, you have to have a good excuse, right? And I know I felt this, you know, I've only been to one baby shower since, since Colette died.
• 43:03
  Michelle Valiukenas: That's not because I haven't been invited to others, because I have, it is okay to say I just can't. Yeah, I can't. And not I can't because I have this other thing just I can't, and I think it's okay. It is more than okay to show up to the event, and whether it is, you pull into a parking lot, then you go, nope, nevermind, and leave. Or you walk inside and leave, or you stay for part of it and then decide I need to go.
• 43:36
  Alex Alexander: You stay for the whole time, and you go outside and sit in the backyard for 30 minutes of it by yourself. You know it's like that, and the and is allowed to happen. This is an all or nothing. It can be a happy occasion, and you can be having a hard time and need to go sit outside for 20 minutes, right? Allowing it all to exist together is the beauty and the vulnerability, and honestly, it's what people tell me they want in friendship, and quite often, I feel like people want it by like, sitting down and having these deep conversations where they share back and forth.
• 44:14
  Alex Alexander: And it's like so much of this vulnerability just comes by allowing an existing if that's what you want, and you tell me you want that, they tell me they want it in my DMs, in meeting me, they tell me they want it like these are the moments that are really going to create those connections that you want. And they're not all pretty heartfelt, candlelit dinners,
• 44:41
  Michelle Valiukenas: yeah, and I, I mean, I have a group. I have, I have three lost mom friends that they are very, very close to me. We are all super close. They all now have at least two living children, right? And when the last one of them had brought her son home, he was really lonely, like it was hard, you know? And we had tried again, and ultimately decided we we were done for a variety of reasons. And so we all met on Zoom one day, and they were talking about the transition of one to two and two to three and all of that. And I was really emotional. And finally, when I had a chance, I said, you know, I want you guys to have these conversations, because I know it's really important for the lives you're living living right now, but I am going to excuse myself, because this is really hard for me to be in and to hear and, you know, everyone was really good.
• 45:28
  Michelle Valiukenas: They were like, you know, we'll stop our conversation if you want to talk about something, whatever. And I was like, You know what? Honestly, this is now hurt a little bit. And I just, I would prefer to just, like, end it and just leave and have my my time and my energy and my emotions and cry and scream and, you know, rant and rave. Like, how dare you have three children? And I only, you know, all of those kinds of things, right? Like, I would prefer to have my time, and so I don't want to do this. And I did, and then they reached out to me in a very loving way. And, you know, really just were very kind of, like, you know, we didn't want this to feel bad for you, and we're. Sorry if we hurt you, and it was like you didn't it was just you were talking about the things that matter to you and that affect your life. And I want you to have those conversations.
• 46:19
  Alex Alexander: So I also want to acknowledge they're being kind to you, right? Because they're saying you don't need to be here. That's okay. We care about you. Please don't force yourself to sit here if you're uncomfortable. You also are being kind to them by saying, I know these are important to you.
• 46:34
  Alex Alexander: I want you to have these conversations. Please go forth and do that. I don't want to be here, but like I want you to have the conversations because they are important. So everybody is being kind to each other, and maybe from the outside right, like on movies or TVs like this doesn't look kind. This would feel like some big dramatic scene, but really, at the core of it, like this, is such a beautiful, vulnerable kind friendship moment of just allowing all these things to exist at one time, no, for sure, like you're being a great friend too to them.
• 47:12
  Michelle Valiukenas: And I think that that's, you know, it's really important to acknowledge like you don't have to, you don't have to risk your mental health, no, and your emotions, just to show up for your friends. And you shouldn't, right? And yes, there are times where we sort of have to, because we need to show up. We have to sort of shelve our stuff for a minute and show up in that way. And, you know, do all of that. And if there had been more going on, I might have done that, but it was just like, you guys need to have these conversations, because now you're dealing with living children and siblings and the transitions and all of that. And I'm not dealing with that. And right now, as it stands, I am not ever going to deal with that. And so that is a loss. The fact that he's like, you know, your worries and your concerns is a loss for me, right? Like, I wanted those, yeah, right. I wanted to have these conversations where we talk about, like, Okay, what do I do when this happens and, you know, and I don't get to and so I need to just remove myself, because this is triggering a lot of things for me, and it's just too hard, right? And just to show up and say those things is so incredibly important.
• 48:23
  Alex Alexander: And having conversations like this, I mean, obviously you and I are having this conversation, we could talk about this for five more hours, I think, but like we're having this, this just keeps hitting me this week on recordings, is I am so honored to get to have these conversations and that people are willing to have them, and We can put them out in the world, and I know that it's new for a lot of people to do this and have these sorts of conversations, and I hope people start doing it in whatever way feels feasible for them. And if this doesn't feel feasible, what a beautiful, living, Evergreen episode you and I have created for somebody who feels this way but doesn't know how to verbalize it, to send it to their friends and maybe like, that's the conversation starter.
• 49:15
  Alex Alexander: Michelle, thank you so much for being here and for just like, being willing to get into the nitty gritty and think about stuff differently, and like I said, create this conversation that'll live on forever for hopefully other people to know that they're not alone in these moments and have some ideas for how they might try and approach these really tough times.
• 49:39
  Michelle Valiukenas: Thank you for having me. I was I love to talk about all of this, so it was very nice,
• 49:44
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Michelle, thank you for your vulnerability, for your wisdom and for being willing to have this conversation, even when it meant unearthing some of your darkest days. If you want to learn more about Michelle's work or support families going through high risk pregnancies, NICU stays or loss, please visit the Collette Louise Tisdale foundation after having two friends with babies in the NICU in the last couple of years, this is a cause near and dear to my heart. You don't know how much NICU families need support until you watch someone go through it. So I'll put the link in the show notes to my friend.
• 50:22
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: You know who you are, who told me to release this episode.
• 50:27
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Thank you. Thank you for trusting me to share even a sliver of your story, for giving me permission to share what I learned from walking alongside you, and for reminding me that these conversations, even when they aren't the most joyous, and in fact, they're pretty hard, are exactly what people need to everyone listening. If you're supporting someone through grief or you're in it yourself, I hope this conversation gave you something, a framework, a permission slip, a reminder that you're not alone. The most important thing I learned from Michelle and from supporting. My friends, is this, you don't have to be perfect. You just have to show up, say their name, sit in the uncomfortable silence, remember the milestones, and keep showing up even when everyone else has moved on.
• 51:21
  Alex Alexander [Narration]: Grief doesn't have a timeline, and neither does friendship with that, I'll see you next week.
• 51:28
  Podcast Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of Friendship IRL. I am so honored to have these conversations with you. But don't let the chat die here. Send me a voice message. I created a special website just to chat with you. You can find it at alexalex.chat. You can also find me on Instagram. My handle, @itsalexalexander. Or go ahead and leave a review wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Now if you want to take this conversation a step further, send this episode to a friend. Tell them you found it interesting. And use what we just talked about as a conversation starter the next time you and your friend hang out. No need for a teary goodbye. I'll be back with a new episode next week.