Latest / Spokes & Strategy: Marketing the Bicycle / EP 18: How Retailers and Suppliers Can Rebuild Trust in the Bike Industry

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EP 18: How Retailers and Suppliers Can Rebuild Trust in the Bike Industry · Spokes & Strategy: Marketing the Bicycle

• Brandon Morphew: Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, Marketing the Bicycle with Brandon Morphew and Chris Melman of Miso Partners. Hello and welcome to Spokes and Strategy, where the business of bikes meets the joy of riding. Michael Fort has seen the bike industry from lots of different angles. He started in retail and owned bike shops. He later moved into the supplier side, holding leadership roles with companies like Giant, Specialized, Felt, and Rosignal. He's worked across operations, systems, inventory, and strategic planning. And this one's a little more personal because Michael and I have actually worked together at Felt. our paths have crossed again since then, including Michael doing some work with us with one of our clients. this isn't really a conversation where I'm meeting Michael for the first time and asking him to walk through his resume. what I'm interested in is what he's learned from seeing the bike business from all those different angles and all those different seats. Michael talks about one of the best decisions he ever made volunteering to help implement an ERP system at Giant because it forced him to understand how virtually every part of the comp company was connected. He also believes one of the most valuable things anyone working in the bicycle industry can do is simply get out and visit a bike shop. Couldn't agree more. Today we're gonna connect those dots, retail, suppliers, data, inventory, AI. And ultimately the people were all trying to get onto bikes. I'm Brandon Morphew and Michael. It's good to have you here. we've known each other through a few different opportunities and different chapters in the bike industry, which I think is gonna make this particularly fun. but but before we start reliving those felt days, we have to start with with the important question around here. What are you riding these days? What kind of riding still makes you the happiest? Michael Forte: let me answer your question first. I'm still riding specialized, but more important than the brand I'm riding, I'm still riding road bikes, I have a Tormac. still riding mountain bikes, I have an Epic. And that's actually one of the reasons why I transitioned into what I'm doing now. I was actually talking to somebody about this at Sea Otter actually. last year, if I rode ten times, that was a lot. This year, because of the transition, because of what I'm doing now with wheelhouse strategies and the bike shopless, I probably rode ten times in January. So that's actually one of the most things I'm most proud of is the fact that I'm writing so much more this year. Brandon Morphew: It's great. And and thinking about your career and and sort of your relationship with the bike, how has it changed over the years? Michael Forte: well and you mentioned ERP systems because I've been in the bike industry since about nineteen eighty-five. and we can talk a little bit more about that later on. the period of time I rode the most was actually a two-year period from two thousand six to two thousand eight when I was actually technically out of the bike industry. I was still working with a lot of bike companies, but I was out of the bike industry installing ERP systems. And I I rode the most those two years, which was incredible. And now I'm looking to actually exceed that this year. so going to getting on the bike a lot more, mountain biking, road biking, and since I moved to Tucson, I wanna ride the Tour of Tucson again. I've probably ridden it about a dozen times over the past thirty years or yeah, probably the past thirty years. but w haven't r ridden it in the last probably about fifteen years. So my goal is to ride that again this year. Brandon Morphew: Do you have a favorite route, a favorite ride in Tucson? Michael Forte: I'm still learning. I mean I've only been here for about six months. the Loop is amazing, which is a network of bike paths throughout Tucson that really connects everything and allows you to ride safely and away from traffic. so I've been doing that a lot. I've told I'm still working up to being able to climb Mount Lemon. so that's one of the ones that I've to been told that I have to do. because I haven't done that yet. And it's also back to the loop. It's got me very passionate about advocacy in the things that People for Bikes is doing because it really does make a difference riding places like the Loop. Brandon Morphew: Bike paths, bike lanes, it's it's yeah, it's a game changer. Well, Michael, Michael Fort is a founder of Wheelhouse Strategies, where he works with retailers, suppliers, and other organizations across the cycling industry on areas including operations, inventory planning, data, and strategy. But my Michael's perspective started on the shop floor. he owned and operated bike stores before moving onto the supplier side. eventually holding roles with giant specialized felt and rosignal. And then there's that part of our history that overlaps. Michael and I worked together during our time at Felt and our paths have crossed professionally again. so rather than doing the traditional career retrospective where we we want to use that experience to explore something bigger. What do you see, or what do you start seeing about the cycling industry when you've been a retailer, a supplier and the person trying to connect all those systems together? Michael Forte: Alright, I wasn't expecting it from that perspective, but I mien One of the things I am passionate about is the role of the retailer in our cycling ecosystem that we have. Because I think it's a very important role. And one of the things I'm passionate about is getting people on bikes. And that's one of the things I've been tracking actually since 2015. Well, I've been tracking it since about 2018. But I noticed this trend from 2015. 15, which is the unit sales through the IBD channel declining. And that's except for the blip during COVID, that's continued through today. And that's concerning how we're getting people on bikes, getting new riders, casual riders to become enthusiasts, because that's really the thing that all of us whether we're a retailer or a supplier or a brand or whatever, for the good of the industry, we need to get people back on bikes. And Rick Vosper has been doing a lot. He actually posted four articles recently that all seem to focus on this. And that's the thing I think we need to do as an industry, working together is getting getting riders on bikes and then once they're on bikes getting riders converted from casual riders to enthusiasts and I think that the IBD is in the best position to accomplish that. Brandon Morphew: Take me back to your bike shop days. You you owned bike shop and and h what were some of the ways you got people on bikes back then? Michael Forte: I well and again this goes to Rick's articles, but it also goes to even be before bike shops. I mean I was a cyclist before I worked at bike shops, and I worked at bike shops before I owned bike shops. And my first multi-speed bike was a free spirit, if anybody out there remembers what a free spirit was and who sold it. Definitely not a high quality bike. I was a casual rider. My father was a rider. ultimately we bought I bought my first IBD brand bike. It was actually a Fuji Royale. the summer we were going we did a trip around New Jersey. So I lived in New Jersey at the time and we rode from my house up to High Point, which was the northernmost point of New Jersey. Down to Cape May, which was the most southern point of New Jersey, and back. So I went from a non-IBD brand bike, the Free Spirit, to an IBD brand bike, the Fuji Royale, to where I am now. I would say I am an enthusiast. I'm no longer a racer, but I still am an enthusiast. and so That has always really resonated with me and not turning away these casual riders, no matter what bike they have or brand they buy. I mean Rick just did an article on why every bike shop should be repairing almost every e-bike. And it goes beyond that. And it goes beyond e-bikes but E-bikes are that entry level point for a lot of riders, like the free spirit was to me. And that was what I did when I owned bike shops. I didn't turn anybody away. I worked with everybody because they were my next enthusiast. The story I tell mostly is I had a customer and he bought the cheapest bike I had ever. The had the absolute cheapest bike I had. It was a giant Acapulco, for those of you who remember the giant Acapulco. and it had horrible cantilever brakes on a steel rim. So he brought it in. He was going riding down at the local park Round Valley Reservation and probably had no business riding a giant Acapulco on those trails there, but That's what he wanted to do, so great. He asked me if I could get the brakes working. I'm like, okay, well, I'll see how good I can get them. may take me some time. I know you're going riding now. Here's a giant ATX 760 that you can go and ride while I'm working on this bike. and it had state-of-the-art V brakes. so he took it out, he went in the parking lot, gave it a test ride. Came back like two, three minutes later and said, I flipped over the handlebars. And I'm thinking, shit, he's gonna sue me. Hopefully I can say shit on the podcast. Yep. Brandon Morphew: Yeah, absolutely. You say worse for better. Michael Forte: So like, shit, he's gonna sue me. the next words out of his mouth were, I'll take it. Because the brakes work so much better than what he was used to. He's like, I gotta I gotta have this. Fast forward a year later, I was building a custom bike for him from the frame up and he was an advocate rider of our mountain bike team. So that's what we have to foster as the as an industry. Again, this is what an IBD is uniquely suited to help foster. But Converting those casual riders, no matter what bike they have, to an enthusiast. Brandon Morphew: If you were to so th that's a great story. I love that. I've actually experienced that where, you know, you you you know, put someone on a on a new bike, they come back and they, you know, buy it sight unseen, sort of like that from that not sight unseen, but from that first experience. just because it is that much better, I think you know, anyone that's on a bike, you know, whether it's a mountain bike or a road bike, you know, that's more than a decade old would be shocked at how good the Michael Forte: Sure. Brandon Morphew: the bikes are right now. And And so I think there's there is that interesting thing. But what what are in your opinion, you know, what are what are some things that maybe shops did or brands did that they're not doing now? If you th you know, like Rick's got great he's making great points. Has the has the shop experience changed, the buying experience changed, or do you think that there's something about the consumer that changed or maybe a little bit of everything? Michael Forte: I I mean it's a little bit of everything. I mean one of the things that is changing is the desire of anybody in the industry, whether it be a retailer or a supplier to make or carry that entry level product. I mean you're seeing that from a lot of the major brands where the five hundred or $600 or $700 bike is just disappearing. And in doing that, you're resigning that customer. If they want to buy a bike under a thousand dollars, a lot of times you're forcing them to go to a Walmart or a Target to buy a bike. And Back to my previous statement. I mean, yeah, a lot of people go there to buy a bike. And if they do go there to buy a bike, I urge every bike shop to embrace them if they come in for service or advice or whatever. But the problem with that is a lot of them don't come to a bike shop and they don't have a good riding experience. And I'm applaud Walmart for what they're doing to try to attract more people into riding and try to kind of bridge that gap. But again, back to my comment that the IBD is ideally suited to helping with that transition. And by not having that level of bike in their stores, it's making it a lot harder to identify those casual riders and to convert them to enthusiasts. Brandon Morphew: I I don't w I don't remember where I heard it, but there was a comment. The target was part of their their big thing was that they want to be your your first. They want to be your first bike, your first mountain bike. That was kind of their f their thing, or your first baseball glove. You know, they they want to be kind of that that initial tip of the spear when it comes to customer acquisition. because you have to start somewhere. And I I think you're making a great point around You know, if there isn't a entry point, then you're almost in you're ensuring that it will fall off. People do think about bike shop. There's a there's a pretty strong percentage of people that think about bike shops when they're gonna buy their first bike. Not not everybody, a lot of people go to Walmart or to Dix. but there are, you know, quite a few people that'll go to their local bike shop. So that's a it's a really interesting point. thinking about suppliers, I I I I wanna know like how you made the jump from supplier to but w but i is this a supplier issue? Like they're just not making these bikes, they they're not profitable anymore. So they're just removing them from their lineup? Is that do you think that's what's going on or is there is there something around demand that's happening is the bike shops the independent bike shops don't want to sell them? Michael Forte: Well, I mean from a demand perspective, if you read if you read the People for Bikes participation studies, there is demand out there. There is people riding. and I don't mean this to be a a Rick Vosper commercial, but Brandon Morphew: That's okay. We'll have to get give give Rick some some some credit. we'll we'll send him a link to the episode. Michael Forte: Yeah, I'm gonna send him a bill after this. so but I mean he he two other articles he wrote. One was about ridership being up and sales still being down. And then he also did one about a got milk style cam campaign. And it all points to the fact that this is not a IBD problem. This is not a supplier problem. this is not a mass mark merchant problem. like a Target or Walmart problem. It's an industry problem. And I still remember God, I can't remember what year it was. But it has to be over ten years ago. Now I was on the BPSA board, which was before BPSA merged with people for bikes. And we had our yearly board meeting at Interbike. So we're down in the I'll call it the basement of the Monterey Bay Convention Center. If everybody knows you go down those stairs and there's all those rooms down there where people meet. But we had our board meeting, and we're talking about efforts we can do as the BPSA to get people on bikes. And then, and I still remember this, people for bikes came in, had this proposal they wanted to run by us. looking for money, of course we all need money to execute on these things, to get more people on bikes. Then the NBDA came in and they had this proposal that they ran by us that they were looking for money for to get people on bikes. And it dawned on me at that time that I mean we had all these people trying to do the same thing in a vacuum when we should all be working together. to get more people on bikes and if a got milk style bike campaign is going to work, we need to work together. The suppliers, the BPSA, the or now people for bikes, the retailers, the NBDA, and even people like Walmart and Target need to work together to get people on bikes because it's going to benefit all of us. Because we are an ecosystem and the only way we're gonna survive is, especially at the IBD level, is to continue to get those casual riders to convert to enthusiasts. Brandon Morphew: with you. I'm I'm I'm there. I'm I actually think about this. I I I'm on a subcommittee with people for bikes and this was one of the agenda items that this is it's in and I think it's Couldn't agree with you more. I I you know I do so I I wanna I wanna think a little bit about supplier. So you made this leap from o owning a shop into working for a supplier. Tell me like what what's the big aha seeing like how the world works from you know IBD, roll up your sleeves, get it done. Nobody's helping you to supplier where there are, you know, people a lot of people have very specialized functions and there's more of a siloed approach, I think often is what ends up happening, but just, you know, bigger organization, more more, more muscle. What what was the biggest surprise on the inside? Michael Forte: well, I mean There's a a lot of a lot of d ways I can answer that question. and I mean and I don't even know if it was a surprise or not. but and it goes back to the whole my whole comment on the Got Milk Style campaign. It's it's an ecosystem. It's it's working together. and there are certain things that an IBD needs to do. And there are certain things that a supplier needs to do. And more and more, and it it really evolved over time. I mean when I was a giant it was the separation between an IBD and a supplier was the most it's been, at least in my lifetime, or my time in this industry. And I could see at when I was at felt that those lines started getting blurred. Especially with online sales and click and collect sales and things like that. But I mean, it's also I I cautioned to say that that's something new because it's not online sales are not new. I mean I remember back when I had my free spirit. I had my Bike Nash Bar catalogue in front of me and I was ordering every things I needed from Bike Nash Bar. So there is always that direct component that Brandon Morphew: Sears and Sears and Robux, that yeah, that yeah, yeah. Michael Forte: Online component. Yep. And Sears was the company that sold Free Spirit, if people did not put that together. because my mother actually worked at Sears and I got a great deal on a Free Spirit, so that was my first geared bike, my first 10-speed bike. and then at specialized, and specialized is really promoting the whole ecosystem. And yeah, there are gonna be people who buy online and get it shipped to home. And that's gonna happen and we as an industry need to embrace it. And there's people who are gonna do click and collect, buy online, pick up and store. And again, we need to embrace it. But back to my comment about the IBD being ideally suited to help this transition for a rider from casual to enthusiast, is Even at Specialized, which was the first company to really launch ship to home from a major supplier. I mean, you had people like Canyon and Rad Power who did it, but that was their business model. Specialized was that first hybrid and the first one to really launch the ability for a rider to buy online and ship to home, a major IBD brand like specialized. And when they did that, it was amazing how small of a percentage of their sales were by online shipped to home. And it was amazing that especially when they did a major project product launch of a e-bike it was the leave of our I think I can say it that when they offered that online for sales almost everybody because of that high touch h want to see it high value bike almost everybody chose pickup and store so the ecosystem is necessary having that ability to buy it however the consumer wants. but it also shows how important the IBD is in that ecosystem. Brandon Morphew: Yeah, I I could agree more. I think you know, if you can look at other industries and see the the the sort of need for specialty. I think there's, you know, music is is a good example. There's lots of, you know, you know, high end guitar shops and that you know, there's lots of places and I think any category you look at, if you if you look at a a lot of that business has gone online. I think there's some that have a service component that are are interesting. And I'm wondering, you know, maybe if you can Maybe you can't, but if you can take us into some of that thinking and maybe some of the learning and 'cause I think retailers and suppliers would like to know, like, what what what what was the thing that you took away, you know, other than people do want to pick up in store? Like what what is something that you took away as far as like this is, you know, it just makes it easier, this is what people are looking for? Is there any any insight that was there that might, you know, from a I B D, you know, if you're running a bike shop that you might be able to think, all right, well, maybe there's something I should be considering as I'm, you know, building out my, you know, 2027 will be here in no time. I know it's still 2026, but it's coming. As you're thinking about what you're going to do next year, and this direct-to-consumer piece is not going away. You know, this is it's only going to keep getting, you know, and and ideally you're picking up in store, but a lot of times it's still going to be shipped to someone's home. You know, there's people who like that too. So anything that came out of that work that you felt was like You know, more bike shops should know that this is what's going on. Michael Forte: Yeah, and one of the other things that's happened throughout the years is the number of skews that are out there. I mean I I had it so easy when I had bike shops. and even when I was working in bike shops it was so easy. I mean the number of skews that a bike shop had to carry in the 80s pales in comparison about the number of SKUs that are available today. And one of the things I work with both suppliers and retailers on is inventory and inventory management. And I mean I I hope this is where you're going with that question, but if if I'm not we can pivot somewhere else. But SKU management now is takes a a concerted coordinated effort between suppliers and IBDs. And this whole ecosystem that we're building, I think really put paints a different picture and even an opportunity on it. And I mean whether it be buy online, whether it be buy in store or buy online, pick up and store, or buy online and drop ship, or whatever. It's it's really leveraging everything that's available to you because you as an IBD can't stock everything. I remember having a discussion and this is a specialized retail discussion when we are doing assortment planning for specialized retail and you're working with the assortment planners who say I want to stock black and white shoes in the common sizes. and then you're working with the specialized marketing team saying, why aren't we stocking the pink and the yellow and the green shoes that we're making in the retail stores? Well, they're not selling, and you want us to manage our inventory, but you want us to carry these special colored shoes. and it's really a matter of being focused on your inventory, stocking what sells, stocking what turns, and then leveraging the ecosystem, leveraging what companies like Specialized and Trek and Giant have built to yeah maybe you stock one or two of those unique shoes. You stock what turns, you're always having stock what sells. If you're at a stock of a black and a white forty-four shoe, you're in trouble. But Brandon Morphew: Yeah, yeah. Michael Forte: you have one pink one that you leverage specialized or Trex or Giants inventory that they can buy online, pick up and store, drop ship directly to the customer, or I mean, even if you do lose a sale. occasionally you're not going to lose a lot of sales to buy online ship to home but leverage your suppliers inventory on these unique sizes keep your business healthy keep in stock what turns and leverage that ecosystem that the suppliers are building on those unique SKUs. Brandon Morphew: I think a good so I g I I I recently visited a a a store here. I'm in the northeast, just near Boston and I recently vi visited a shop and they had done this thing where, you know, I part of me loves it. Like it was super clean, really pared down, like really But as a consumer, as a bike consumer, passionate bike consumer, I I didn't find anything that I would have liked to have spent some money there. I actually went in with the idea that I was gonna buy something unique and something interesting, and and I had the experience where there really wasn't anything. There was all just branded, same thing, one company X. You probably mentioned who they were and all the stuff. Like it was just very what I will call like a mono branded kind of experience. As a consumer, I you know and I was looking for something interesting. So that was me. I'm one per I'm a data point of one. So I'm not I'm not the I'm not I'm not representative at all. And if you're in that world, you know, you have a a great partner in Trek or a great partner in specialized or a great partner in giant and or pawn. You know, you're you're you're building this retail environment that's you know, really clean, looks good. It's how What what resources would you recommend? Because you can't look at your sales to sort of cause you're just selling the thing you sold last year. what would you what would you recommend for someone who's thinking about assortment for next year? Thinking about like making their shop hum. Like what are the things, what are the categories that that you should take a risk on? Or what are the areas where you would think about making like what if someone came to you as as a retailer, as as a buyer, as a as a shop owner and they said, Look, I I you know, I I'm gonna buy these things, I'm gonna do the black shoe and the white shoe. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna make sure we have, you know, a couple of tire brands and a whole bunch of different tread pattern you we're gonna have the the good stuff, but how do we make those decisions? Like what would you recommend as some resources to help understand like what we're missing, where we might grow, how do we focus? What What's the framework we should use for making some of those decisions, those hard choices? Michael Forte: Yeah, and I mean you know me, I'm a data person, so I love data. And there is no shortage of data out there if you know where to find it. S some of it you have. Leverage the data that's coming out of your POS system. Some of it you can get for free. depending on like for example, well nowadays there is No end of people asking for your data. And like you have the Circana or People for Bikes data, you now have Track Fly with the NBDA. Bicycle Market Research is now working with people for bikes as well. And there are some, if you participate in those programs, you can get some limited scope of data. If you purchase that data, you can get down to skew level detail, which is amazing information. And then you also have suppliers who will provide you data if you ask for it. I mean, and I'll give an e give a couple examples on that part of the the piece. I don't know if you I can't remember if you were there at Felt when we did this, but We actually started pulling Google Analytics data for our website, and we were supplying to retailers a snapshot of what felt was selling in their area. We did it by MSA Metropolitan Statistical Area, but we would provide to dealers. Hey, yes, you're stocking these bikes. You're selling these bikes. Of course, you're selling what you're stocking. But what are others in your area selling? what are others in your area? What consumers in your area are visiting our websites? And what pages are they looking at on our websites? And that is great information that suppliers have that they can provide you. And it may not be the unit data of what's selling in your area, but they can direct you on what models, colors, or sizes are selling best in your area. They have that data. They may not be providing it, but I'm sure if you asked, they very well may provide it because it's going to benefit you as a retailer, knowing what else you should be stocking, and it's going to benefit them as a supplier. Because you're gonna buy it from them. So yeah, it's just leveraging the data that's available to you, whether it's in your own POS system, whether it's something you can ask your suppliers for, and they'll give it to you probably free of charge, or whether it's something you either get or buy from these companies like Circana or Bicycle Market Research or Track Track Fly. whether you buy it from them or whether it's something that you get f by participating and supplying your data to them. Brandon Morphew: Is there anything you'd recommend from like a decision making process or or you get the data, now you need to like make some decisions about like w where like what would you say? Like you're you can use AI now. I think that to me like that's probably one of the most interesting. But what what what would you say to a retailer who's thinking about planning for twenty twenty seven and they're gonna reach out to the suppliers, they're gonna get this information and they're thinking about like what they're what their supply looks like, you know, what their what their assortment looks like for twenty twenty seven. What what would you say would be a good maybe first, second, third step for doing some of that planning? Michael Forte: I mean there's a lot of ways you can do it. My my go-to is an ABC analysis. it's something that I've always found insightful. I've used it since I was a dealer. I used it at Giant Felt Specialized. I'm using it now in clients I'm working with. But it it goes back to Determining what are the skews that are moving the needle, what are the A skews, what are the twenty percent of the skews that are driving eighty percent of your business. And if you manage those skews correctly. You're there. The rest of the stuff is gravy. and so really you're focusing on twenty percent of your SKUs and managing eighty percent of your revenue. That's why I love the ABC analysis. Brandon Morphew: choice. And that's something in it as far as the methodology goes, like that's something somebody could just look up like Google ABC analysis and they'll get a good, you know, retail ABC analysis, you know, and that would they would give them a good formula, like how likely they'd get probably the Google AI would tell them how to do that. Michael Forte: Yeah, I mean AI can definitely help you. I leverage AI in a lot of the things I do. I can do it for you if you ever want to reach out to me, of course. but yeah, an ABC analysis is nothing proprietary to me. It's something that's out there, it's pretty documented on how to do it. I look at it by units, dollars, and margin, so you get a really good mix of on it. and yeah, AI can do amazing things. you do have to work with AI. make sure it's the right tool for what you're using it for. like I said, I utilize AI tremendously in my business. I'm I'm probably on AI Probably two or three hours a day. strangely enough, I woke up at I think it was like one forty seven is when I looked at the clock this morning and I was like as things were going through my mind and I said, All right, I gotta go do it. So I was actually using AI to work on something at one forty seven AM this morning. so yeah, it has a lot of value to it. it's an incredible tool. You do have to make sure it's the right tool for the job. the the analogy I use is a hammer is a great tool for driving nails. A wrench is a great tool for turning bolts. but you want to make sure you're using the hammer for the nail, driving the nail and not trying to drive a nail with a wrench. AI is the same thing. Make sure it's the right tool, because there are some things it does great. And there are other things that I do manually because manual is still the right tool. but yeah, so I we can definitely talk more about AI if you want. It's it's Brandon Morphew: Do I do I do want to I I want to think a little bit more about that supplier-retailer relationship because I I think it is it's evolving. Like this is I think some retailers, you know, maybe some suppliers maybe specialize, you know, you had an experience with them where they are sort of looking at this a as a whole, you know, value chain, you know, like how do we manage all of it, you know, because it it's a it's a very important part of the the retailer engagement. The retailer, the first touch, you know, like that first experience, that first bicycle, like having that entry point is super valuable, but also like profitability across, you know, people want to pick up the bike, they want to deliver. There's lots of there's lots of components there. But I'm just wondering what do you think right now is the biggest disconnect today between the people that make decisions at suppliers and the the people who are sort of making decisions and living this the suppliers' decisions at the bike shop. Where do where do you think the the biggest disconnect lies today? Michael Forte: I hate to be a little bit of a cop-out on this answer. but I'll mention it because it's what I believe. It's I mean, it's twofold. One is it's a trust issue. They don't trust each other. and that's a shame because back to my got milk analogies that I used previously. If we are going to succeed as an industry, we gotta work together as an industry. So we need to overcome that trust issue. And the the other piece is really just understanding where the other person is coming from. And that's something that I actually learned early on in Giant at when I was at Giant. it's And it had nothing to do with the supplier retailer dynamic. It had everything to do with the operations sales dynamic. I was at odds with the inside sales manager. And it was just frustrating me to no end. And it was not until I I don't know if you want to say walked a mile in her shoes or tried to understand where she was coming from, that it really helped our relationship. And it was understanding where she was coming from that helped us develop a really good working relationship. And that goes back to something you mentioned earlier, which is my belief in visiting dealers. one of the best things I did was visit dealers and whether Skip Hess at Giant really dr drilled it into us. And Skip, for never ever being a dealer, probably understood dealers the best out of anybody I worked with because he made that effort to visit dealers and he required the leadership team at Giant to visit dealers quarterly. And that's how I got into that habit of visiting dealers. When I was at Felt, and again I'm not sure if you were here there during that time, Bill During and Jim Felt decided to take a road trip and just went out and visited dealers. And that helped build trust between them and the dealers. And then even at specialized Matt Kepphardt and I, this was after COVID, we felt that We were not in touch with the dealers like we should have been. We hadn't seen some of our biggest dealers in years. So we made it an effort. Every month we picked a geographic area and went and spent a week visiting dealers in that geographic area. And that did a huge it really fixed that problem and really allowed us to understand where the dealers were coming from better than we had before we did the trips and back to how I started this, develop the trust between the dealers and us. Brandon Morphew: it's a very human issue. You know, trust and empathy are both I'd say core challenges for human beings, probably in general. And then even more so, I think, with some of the things we have that disconnect. You know, we do a lot of Zoom, we do social media, there's all these things that are happening that I think are great and have a lot of drawbacks. You know, we miss this. you know, personal connection. We miss the in person, we miss the social cues and things that I think really are important. retailers. It's really interesting. it you know f forced you to understand, you know, the way the business is connected then. Michael Forte: that s thirst to learn about the other person what the other person is doing. I mean and back when I was at Giant and the ERP example was the most obvious example of this, but I would always take the opportunity to learn what somebody else was doing. purchasing. I didn't really know outside of purchasing. And the ERP implementation really got me to learn a lot of the functional things that Giant was doing, accounting. I really learned about warehousing. Sales, I learned about sales in implementing sales into the ERP system. But there was also a piece of it. Which was the product side. Product really was not integrated into the ERP system at Giant. I made it a point to butt my nose in where it didn't belong at on the purchasing side. And I ended up going to Asia regularly, at least four or more times a year with the product team, and I learned a lot about product. And that continued when I was at Felt, working with the product team at Felt and learning about the supply chain. together. when I was at Felt, I took on customer service. So the first thing I did was I Went to the warehouse, which is where customer service is, and I went there every week and spent time with it. And people were looking at me like, why are you going to the warehouse every week? Because I want to know what's going on. And not only did I learn about it, I developed a rapport with them. When I was at specialized, I'd already known about warehousing because I did that at Felt. But when I took over the warehouse, the first thing I did was I said, I'm coming to see you at the warehouse. I'm coming to Columbus to see you. And his qua he his response was, Why? Nobody ever comes here. I'm like, Yes, that is why. Brandon Morphew: What did I do? Michael Forte: the next thing he said to me was, Well, you're the third manager I've had in the last year, so we'll see how long you last. Three years later I was still his manager and it was partially because I went there and I learned what he did and I developed trust with him. Brandon Morphew: Again, trust, empathy, walking a mile in the shoes. Yeah, it's great. you know, I'm I'm it's it's interesting. The E ERP to me is is such a great tool, you know, for business systems and and then we have AI now. I like this sort of like I you didn't necessarily put it this way, but being curious about like what the other people in the business do, like what are going on. I'm and so I'm I'm curious, your take. You're you're not sitting in the retailer seat right now, you're not sitting in the You're no longer sitting in the supplier seat. But if you were to, you know, put that hat on for a second and put yourself back into either a supplier role or or a retailer role and you had to like kind of like plan 2027 and you have AI, what would you recommend people be curious about? What would you recommend they think about as they're approaching these tools? How could they incorporate AI into their business planning, their business? Maybe even their business processes, their systems thinking about next year. Michael Forte: Yeah. And it's not really an AI question as much as a just a more of a philosophy question and it's I don't know if I I'm gonna again answer this in probably a quest a way you're not w wanting me to go. but it's really identifying what is the the particular pain point to your business, whether it be inventory control or supply chain planning or whatever, and then determining what is the right tool to fix it. And it may very well be AI. It it may be something else. And really I took an AI leadership Course when I was at Specialize, which was really good. And the one thing that stuck with me, the one thing that keeps coming back in my mind from that AI leadership course, is how it really augments your team. It doesn't replace your team, it augments your team. And it allows them to do more. It basically, and we We looked at when I was at specialized, we looked at how it could augment the retail finance or the credit team. And they were spending a lot of time doing things that AI could do because they were in looking at credit limits and looking at orders that met or did not meet certain criteria. They meant Spent a lot of time staring at the screen, sorting things, ordering things, and releasing things that met certain criteria. AI can do that for them. But there were so many things. Whenever I talk to the retail finance team, the biggest comment is we don't have enough people. Well, augment yourself with AI. Let AI do these things that it's suited to do. It's the hammer for the nail. so that you don't have to do them and then you could focus on these other things that you don't have enough people to do because you're spending all your time on this stuff that AI can do for you. yeah. Answered it in a different way than you were probably expecting or hoping anyway. Brandon Morphew: No, I I love it. No, no, no. I think it's great. I I actually I it's really good advice. I I I think that I agree. I I augment it as a you know, it it's I love the analogy of the tool. I think it's it's spot on. I I'm I'm in I'm in agreement. It's a pretty powerful tool. It's it's definitely different than a hammer or or a wrench, but it is it is a tool and I think it you know it's it's powerful enough that I think it can really impact your business. Go going back to and I I have a lot of feelings about AI, and I would like to talk more. I think I could probably this probably worth just having a podcast on A w AI and and the bike shop would would Yeah, Michael Forte: Well, I'm happy to do an AI podcast later for you. Brandon Morphew: yeah, I I think it could be really really good. but I I wanna think more about the creating more more cyclists. Like that that idea that w we kind of started with is this, you know, this gap and and maybe AI can help us. Like maybe that's part of the transition, but you know, what are some things that either are missing or that that we're not doing that we need to be doing? you know, infrastructure is is a long term solution. the gulp gut milk campaign is a good idea, but you know, we we we really we're really good at selling bikes, right? We're really good at selling. I had a joking with someone, you know, like the Pinarello dogma, you know, the fifteen thousand dollar Pinerella dogma. awesome, you know, great. Sell those, that's a great and that's not the bike that gets someone into cycling, right? That's not the one that like creates a new cyclist. So I'm just wondering if you have anything, any thoughts on how, you know, whether it's gut milk or maybe we can we can ping Rick Fosper and get some of his his magical ideas. But What what do you think? Is there anything that jumps out at you? Michael Forte: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a marketing person. if anybody asks me, that's the first thing I admit. You're way more of a marketing person than I d am, so I would definitely defer to you on things like pipeline management and filling the pipeline and funnels and top of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, all that sort of fun stuff. which I know the words, but anyway. And the two things that I the two things that really pop the mind when you say that just to focus on them. one we kind of talked about is the entry-level product. I am a firm believer of that because when I opened my bike shops, I was a family shop. And I grew into an enthusiast shop by growing with the customers I created. So I am a firm believer in that entry level product. I mean the other story I have as it relates to that is and this was like a month after I opened a customer came in and actually wanted to buy a giant Farrago, which was a hybrid bike. And he had seen it at another shop that was probably about twenty miles away and they were giving it away, like basically like ten dollars over cost. And I told him, no, I can't match it for you. So he went and bought it at that other shop. He came back in and wanted service on the shop or on the bike. And I said yes, because again, I don't want to turn anybody away. I want to convert them into loyal customers and enthusiasts. Fast forward nine years later, he bought my bike shop. so again it's that entry level bike, it's getting them in on that entry-level bike. And then the second piece of it which relates to that is the management of the pipeline. One of the marketing beliefs that I have, and I it's I'm probably gonna butcher the saying, but I'll you'll get the idea, is It's a lot cheaper to manage an existing customer than to find a new one. And that's the whole thing about the pipeline management. You have this pipeline of people. Do the best job you can managing it. And that will get those people from that that you've gotten into that funnel, into that pipeline, and convert them from the casual rider to the enthusiast. Focus on the customers you already have because it's a lot cheaper than finding new customers. Brandon Morphew: true. It's it's a lot easier to to to work with an existing it's less expensive to work with an existing customer than it is to find a new customer. I I agree completely. Well I big big thanks Michael. I really appreciate you making time to chat. I've really I enjoy speaking with you always and it's great that I you know it's been great working with you. It's great to get a chance to work with you again recently. you know and I and I don't know that we've You and I have sat down. We've had some good conversations, but I don't know if we've sat down and connected all those dots before. So this is really fun. if if folks want to find out more about you and your work, retailers. and that's at the the bike shoplist dot com. Correct? And I'll make Michael Forte: Yep. Yep. That Brandon Morphew: sure we get that in the in the show notes too. And then we'll also have contact information for wheelhouse strategies. but you know I really appreciate you being here and and thank you so much for your time. thank you to everyone for listening to Spokes in Strategy. You know where business of bikes meets the joy of riding. and if you enjoyed this one, please share with a shop owner or someone else in the industry or just someone who loves loves bikes and and appreciates the conversation. So thanks so much. Really appreciate it, Michael. Michael Forte: Thank you. This was fun. I enjoyed it.