Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #183 - Are You Mad at Me? Friendship Anxiety and the Need for Validation (Meg Josephson)

Transcript

#183 - Are You Mad at Me? Friendship Anxiety and the Need for Validation (Meg Josephson) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to tyranny.
0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Conversations about friendship.
0:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I am your host, Nina Boutzen.
0:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I have been writing about friendship for over 10 years, podcasting about it for about four and a half years.
0:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I started this podcast in the summer of 2021 and I hope.
0:20
[SPEAKER_00]: as a listener, whether you are newer to the show or you have been here a long time that you also find yourself learning a lot about yourself as a friend about the people in your life, the kind of friends they are or aren't in what you want out of your friendships.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We want different things at different ages and stages of life.
0:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode brings together so many things I know listeners are thinking about I have licensed psychotherapist Meg Josephson,
0:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a more perfect title, Meg Josephson, and her private practice specializes in trauma and formed care through a compassion focused lens.
0:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She holds a master, social work from Columbia University, and she is a certified meditation teacher through the Nalanda Institute.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: She really brings a lot of that mindfulness into her work, helping people.
1:09
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll from a lifetime of people pleasing really.
1:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's more to it, but you got to read the book.
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: This interview is fantastic.
1:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited for you to hear it, but I also think that you should read the book.
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are somebody who feels that you are always worried that people are mad at you or you're worrying a lot with people think of you.
1:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So is that just about people being mad at you?
1:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a due people think I'm nice enough.
1:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Good enough, you did the right thing.
1:34
[SPEAKER_00]: In the book, Meg explains that people pleasing as not a personality trait, it's a genius survival mechanism known as a phoning, and she will describe phoning for us more in the episode, but just to give you a quick idea, that is the instinct that is often learned in childhood to become more appealing, to a perceived threat, so that you could feel safe.
1:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That inherently a bad thing for a lot of people as a necessary survival skill can be protective.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: but for adults who don't really need that anymore and are still living in a constant state of hypervigilance, it is a necessary at this point and it also is what leads to anxiety and exhaustion and resentment and burnout and just overly focusing on what other people think.
2:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Meg's work is about how to help you stop living in that constant state of fear that people are upset with you or that you're not
2:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are someone who, whenever there is even the slightest hint of a behavior change in a friend, you assume that they're upset with you, even though you haven't done anything or even if you have done a little something, but not that big of a deal and people make mistakes and you just cannot move behind it.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: This episode is for you.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And this episode is for you if you always felt like you had to be good perfect the best in order to stay safe in order to be and everyone's good graces or if you felt like being and everyone's good graces was the only way to feel safe and okay as a kid as an adult.
2:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that covers a lot of people.
3:00
[SPEAKER_00]: This is for a lot of you.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that you get as much out of it as I did.
3:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Meg.
3:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Dear Nina.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
3:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we dive in, I would like to read something to you from your book, but there's really for the listeners.
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know it because you wrote it, but this is for the listeners to be where I am.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm ahead of them if they haven't read the book.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is from page 177.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I both hate and love to break it to you.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't control other people's perceptions of you.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Even when you're working over time in an attempt to control how you're being perceived, the other person is still seeing you through the lens of their own inner world.
3:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And by trying to gain control of others' perceptions, you're losing something in the process, your sense of self, your precious energy, your peace of mind.
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you were to do everything perfectly for everyone and cater to their exact personality preferences, you still wouldn't have control over how they perceive you.
3:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is a false sense of control.
3:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The truth is that others perceptions were never in your control.
4:03
[SPEAKER_00]: People will judge you.
4:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Miss understand you and hold perceptions of you that you don't agree with.
4:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
4:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That paragraph.
4:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the whole book is like that.
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, the whole book I could stop for go, oh my gosh.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like she's talking to me.
4:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to just transition immediately to ask you what made you write this book.
4:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll start with where that feeling originates with me, because that to me is really what I was hoping this book is achieving is it speaks, puts a language to a feeling.
4:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so many of us have, but feel very alone in.
4:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you mad at me?
4:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of troubled.
4:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I do something wrong.
4:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I bad if that feeling of worry and shame?
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, I grew up in a home that had a lot of addiction and rage and volatility.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: and worrying if people were mad at me specifically my dad was really protective.
4:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely coped by being just the perfect good kid so that he wouldn't be upset with me.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just something I could control.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I thought I could control in an environment that otherwise felt quite out of my control.
5:04
[SPEAKER_01]: To me that feeling was there from a very young age, but then when I got older,
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was now an adult and working that feeling was still there.
5:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just manifesting in different ways.
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So now I was worried that I'd be fired.
5:18
[SPEAKER_01]: My boss said, can you chat?
5:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Or my friend must be mad at me because they didn't put a exclamation point or they didn't text me back right away.
5:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That feeling was still there just had changed forms.
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it became a therapist, I just loop in my own private practice, just saw how prevalent that feeling was in others as well.
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my tongue, silly, at that point, it really was surprising to me how many other people were feeling this.
5:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I really thought, not that I was unique in that, but,
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I was comforted and surprised to see how many people worry about these things when I became a therapist.
5:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really when I started to blend all those things together.
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: My own personal story, client narrative, research, and thought there isn't really a book that talks about this through the angle of fonding, especially.
6:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where it began.
6:07
[SPEAKER_00]: In that quote in particular, what speaks to me is the double-headed monster that you really tackle in the book of the people pleasing the fonding, which we're going to find a little more in a moment.
6:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And this false sense of control, too.
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're connected.
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: As if you can't separate them, but it's like, oh, if I just say the right thing, do the right thing, act in the right way, then they will think this thing of me, which will be positive.
6:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I will be seeing positive.
6:32
[SPEAKER_01]: into a child that's so soothing when, you know, we are quite powerless as children.
6:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if we are in an environment that's very unpredictable, focusing on perception, focusing on what we can do to be seen as good or perfect,
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: feels very soothing.
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But then we carry that because it worked for a lot of us, how brilliant that we knew how to do that.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We carry that into adulthood in a way that's not as helpful or necessary.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It becomes more maladaptive.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really the adult manifestation.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you define finding?
7:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like now, I'm just familiar with it from reading the book.
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But for listeners who haven't even maybe heard that term before.
7:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
7:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So the fauna response is a term that was coined in 2013 by a psychologist named P. Walker.
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's quite new in terms of language, but it's been around.
7:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been doing it for a long time.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So our body has four responses to a threat.
7:28
[SPEAKER_01]: that we have language for fighter flight, those are the first two, which I think a lot of us are familiar with, freeze and the fourth one is fun.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So when our body is detecting some sort of threat, whether that threat is real, so there's a line in front of us or an abuser or someone's screaming at us, or the threat is perceived.
7:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So our friend intakes this back, or our partner's being little cold after work and we're like,
7:54
[SPEAKER_01]: matter me who's more that's a perceived threat it feels threatening but we may be fine when we're in their fauna response it doesn't matter if it's real a perceived it feels the same that's for all threats but when we're in the fauna response we appease the threat we try to be liked by it satisfied and press it
8:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We lean into the threat instead of away from it so that we can feel safe again.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What the Fauna's response really says is, I can't feel safe until I know you like me.
8:21
[SPEAKER_01]: My safety comes from pleasing you.
8:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't be good until I know we're good.
8:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's really what differentiates it from the other threat responses.
8:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's leaning into it as opposed to fleeing in some way.
8:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we need it, which we can talk about, whether it's to survive in society, to get a paycheck, to a piece or boss, whatever it may be.
8:40
[SPEAKER_01]: But when we're doing it all the time, it's a threat response.
8:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We're only supposed to be in it for a few minutes.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: When we're doing it all the time, when we're actually safe, like with a loving partner, with a best friend that we've had since childhood, that's when it becomes so tiring leads to burnout, resentment, anxiety and all those things.
8:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to understand what a person is doing differently and I'm just going to say in a more healthy way when they don't get a text back from their friend.
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say there's two ways to connect to that.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You text your friends someone you text with pretty regularly and then it's just silence.
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: One kind of person might be like, she's busy and just assume whatever she's busy this person normally text me back pretty quickly.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So they must be busy.
9:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I kind of thought they were after a little weird the other day.
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess they really are mad at me.
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a confirming maybe a fear you already had.
9:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What is happening in the person's head in both scenarios?
9:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with the anxious, fauna response version, which is, excuse towards self blame.
9:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I do something wrong?
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong with me?
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's this joke didn't land last night at the party.
9:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now they're like, they hate me.
9:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And we started to pick ourselves apart.
9:53
[SPEAKER_01]: In part because that's the only thing in our control is to look at ourselves in some ways, that's what we can point to.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But the threat is hyper-vigilance.
10:02
[SPEAKER_01]: We have this hyper-vigilance of what do they think of me?
10:06
[SPEAKER_01]: We're scanning our environment, the text, the relationship, the body language, and that's a huge core part of the fauna response.
10:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We're scanning our external environment and in doing so we completely lose connection with what's happening internally.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're
10:23
[SPEAKER_01]: There's abandonment happening worst case scenario thinking.
10:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, they probably take back 30 minutes later and we're like, okay, we're good.
10:32
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we're never mind.
10:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas someone who is perhaps more regulated in their nervous system at that moment, they're not
10:39
[SPEAKER_01]: think about it.
10:40
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going about their day just as easily as the other person is of people have lives.
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: People have other relationships and jobs and maybe this person is stressed or going through breakup or is a new relationship.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all these factors and we have so many things that we're all juggling.
10:56
[SPEAKER_01]: That person is thinking it's not personal.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a really important piece of the fauna responses we tend to take everything quite personally.
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes there's validity to that and we self-reflect to think about how we can improve and other times we're searching for information to affirm the belief that something is inherently wrong with us.
11:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And why it can be difficult and friendships, I just want to say from my point of view and you mentioned in the book too, because really what I'm always dealing with in the show is like helping people make friendship easier.
11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Just not to make it harder than it needs to be.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: The desire to make sure you're okay.
11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure people aren't mad at you.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It requires a lot of your friend.
11:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think people always realize this, right?
11:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You are asking a lot of other people to always make you feel that you're like in everyone's good places.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tiresome.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's totally tiresome.
11:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It really puts a strain on the relationship for the person, the receiving end of it, of course.
11:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes if we're concerned about something and hey, want to check in with you, are we doing okay?
11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Even that is so different than, are you mad at me?
12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I do something wrong?
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And that we can speak about the difference between reassurance seeking and validation and how to navigate through that.
12:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think we need help.
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: What can make it so tiring is when reassurance seeking
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: habitual.
12:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a constant cycle.
12:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what you're asking from the friend is for them to reassure you, make you feel better, sue you.
12:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that's what friendship is, but when that's happening all the time, it is so, so tiring.
12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: The person is giving a lot.
12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that's not happening is you're actually not getting to the root feeling.
12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: This is reassurance seeking.
12:38
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're saying,
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you mad at me?
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you still love me?
12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think I'm pretty?
12:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's yes or no answers.
12:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the other person might say, no, I'm not mad at you.
12:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I still love you.
12:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then maybe we feel good for a second.
12:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, good.
12:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But then it comes back.
12:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a bandaid.
12:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Ten minutes later.
12:54
[SPEAKER_01]: hour later, whenever it is, because we're not actually getting to the root emotion beneath it, which is anxiety, fear of being left behind in security.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever may be beneath the surface for us, that's reassurance.
13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Validation, when we're looking for validation, the way I kind of differentiate it in the book, is validation is really slowing down with that emotion.
13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: let's say in this scenario your friend didn't text you back and so you're feeling anxious you want to say are you not at me in that situation slow down put your phone down okay what does always be answered always the first answer step was put the damn phone down
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening here?
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: What triggered this?
13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you feeling?
13:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're feeling anxious?
13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You feeling insecure about something you said yesterday, and that's coming up for you.
13:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Just being with whatever that is, soothing yourself for a second, taking a few deep breaths, whatever it may be.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: If you decide you want to have a conversation with that person,
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: but you might not.
13:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You might say yourself, that past.
13:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually okay.
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I calmed myself down.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good.
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: If you decide, I actually do want to have a conversation with that person.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: The difference between reassurance and validation.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Validation is your saying to the other person.
14:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I've been noticing.
14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really overthinking this thing for me yesterday.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need you to reassure me, but I just wanted to talk about it.
14:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to see how you were feeling.
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to share how I was feeling.
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You're having a conversation about the emotion.
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: In the other person might give you validation and it might include some reassurance.
14:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, no.
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't worry about that at all.
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an opening to what both people are feeling and you're slowing down.
14:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And it requires the other person to do less.
14:32
[SPEAKER_01]: because you're both carrying the weight of the conversation.
14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That's sort of how I view the difference between those two things.
14:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tricky and I think sometimes it would be helpful if all of us could first assume the best.
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, first assume that sometimes okay we do say weird things sometimes and maybe the other person even thought oh that was kind of a weird thing to say and then move down with their day.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I had something this morning.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so timely with this episode.
14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote a text to a friend.
14:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw that her dog died.
15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've known this friend a long time.
15:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I've known her dog a long time.
15:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I am known to be not a dog person.
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up with dogs.
15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: People always assume oh, she must be scared of dogs.
15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I am not scared of dogs.
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up with two gray hounds at all times.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: My parents adopted gray hounds from the gray stretch.
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just did not enjoy them.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They weren't warm on cuddly.
15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They shed everywhere, mom, sorry.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I know this makes you upset when you hear me say that.
15:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes you feel like I'm an on-loving person.
15:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, I did have four children.
15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I do know how to care for living beings.
15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had a dog person.
15:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I love my friend and actually did like her dog.
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote her a text that said something like, I saw that your dog died.
15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I named the dog.
15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, you know, I'm not a dog person, but I really loved your dog.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I did.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I did like a broken her.
15:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I felt bad the whole rest of the morning.
15:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why did I need to say I'm not a dog?
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: that felt so unnoticed why can't I just said I'm so sorry yeah the reason this felt appropriate with this episode with you I was so proud of myself and I want you to have me on the back I almost followed that up 20 minutes later because I was persevering on it I didn't mean to say I'm not a don't person that was so unnoticed I was gonna explain it to me.
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, you know it.
16:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I need to, she, my ear may not have noted it.
16:09
[SPEAKER_00]: If she noted it, she was talking like, that wasn't necessary.
16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And then moved on.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: She said her dog died.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like she's in care how I said.
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, she's probably getting a lot of text.
16:21
[SPEAKER_01]: loving texts from people and just appreciated the soft touch from you.
16:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Huge pat on the back.
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: For first of all having awareness of it, that's the thing.
16:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Having awareness, catching yourself, catching the urge, the urge is still going to be there.
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's worth pursuing most of the time, it's not, but it's being able to suede ourselves through the discomfort of
16:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Miss judging us in some way.
16:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the time, people are not thinking about us as much as we think they're thinking about us and even if they do notice it or something like you said We're just people are moving on with their day.
17:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you talk about the study in the book?
17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: They're really measured how little people are.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the T-shirt study.
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think yeah, I would be helpful for the people
17:08
[SPEAKER_01]: there was a study where there was a group that they were embarrassing t-shirts out in public.
17:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the t-shirts were, but they were embarrassing enough for it to be like, that's the variable in the study.
17:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had to guess where estimate how many people noticed them or how they were being perceived the amount of people that noticed them out in public was significantly less.
17:30
[SPEAKER_01]: They overestimated so much how many people
17:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We're paying attention them, looking at them, or noticing their existence, we're in our own worlds.
17:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We are focused on our own lives, on our own relationships.
17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: For people in the fawner spots, taking things personally, was often really protective.
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: If my parents in a bad mood, that's my fault.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to do something, I need to fix this.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was protective to be so hyper-aware for that parent example.
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But when we're doing it in adulthood, when it's not as necessary, it kind of distorts how we're seeing the world we're seeing it through this hyper-focused lens that everyone's paying attention to us.
18:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's noticing and evaluating us.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's really because we are to ourselves.
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: We're noticing ourselves in that way.
18:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We are judging ourselves in that way.
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if people are judging you in that way, okay.
18:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the hard part, right, that the so what living with it, just living with it, on one hand, people aren't thinking about us as much as we think, and the other hand, and this is something I wanted to bring up.
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a friend who explained to me the how she grew up in, and it wasn't abusive or some of the issues that we've covered a little bit in terms of needing to have that fawn response to say to actually stay safe and know what the mood was in the house.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It was that her parents were always gossiping about other people.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: and bearing critical of other people.
18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could make you think.
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see how if you were raised like that, you would grow up to think everyone's talking about me.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Every way.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Noticing every little time, I didn't wear the right things, say the right thing.
19:05
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you grow up otherwise?
19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a huge, huge one of my parents were the same.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gossip a lot and that was kind of their way of connecting to one another was through gossip and judgment as a therapist I witnessed this as well that how we think people are thinking about us is often a reflection of how our parents talked about other people.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: that's not discussed that much.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a really original idea.
19:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying for the first two people to ever talk about it.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the first person to put it in your book, but it's not talked about that often.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You're more about the abuse piece of it, which of course would make you go up to react to adults the same way you did when you were a kid.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, this too, being and like listening and of so much criticism about other people, even if it wasn't about you,
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
19:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You still take it in and by the way, I just want to say my parents did not do that.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody had their issues and it didn't grow up perfectly.
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: No one did and certainly my kids aren't growing up perfectly.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But they did not do that.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom is the queen of saying nothing about anybody.
20:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't even get hurt.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I mean even like, Mom, what do you think about?
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: She will not.
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an art form.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: She's, I don't know, it's the outcome.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
20:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We take that in.
20:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then often we will also pick ourselves apart in that way, because if we're perfect, there's nothing to criticize.
20:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we hyperfixate on what we can do perfectly and I need to say this grief text perfectly and I need to say this joke perfectly, because if we're maximizing approval, we're minimizing rejection, we're maximizing as it
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I do find that I just to be personal, because I can only really talk about myself, even I didn't grow up in an abusive home or grow up in a home where people were gossiping.
20:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I still have this people pleasing response, but now with everyone, only with certain people.
20:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I have other people I find hard to please and instead of gotten better as I've gotten older.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: evolved.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You should be much worse.
20:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The dancing monkey to make sure these couple of people aren't mad at me.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And it would make me overexplain.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's interesting.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I find that I could turn it off with some people and some people I felt.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to turn it out on my one possibility.
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I think is guy grew up feeling like I had to be good.
21:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't.
21:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Not because people would yell at me, but that people would be overwhelmed if I added anything to the plate.
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is what's important is, and I talk about this where it doesn't need to be abusive for you to learn to fall in.
21:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But it can also just be existing in society, especially as a woman, needing to be seen as good and agreeable, because as children, how we are loved,
21:38
[SPEAKER_01]: and approved of within our home, how loved we are and approved of, that's our world, that's everything to a child.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk about this, the complexity, even in my home, there were definitely extreme moments of volatility, but there was also loving moments as well, and I also have sweet memories too, and that was really confusing when I first went to therapy to process a lot of what happened
22:07
[SPEAKER_01]: and I thought it had to be all bad for it to matter or for it to be worth processing and acknowledging and it can be true that you felt loved and you have a great family and it can be true that you learned you have to be good all the time.
22:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Both things can be true.
22:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't negate each other.
22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a very healing thing to say to a person.
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate that.
22:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope listeners are also taking that in.
22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Listeners who feel that they are sometimes stuck in this pattern of always wearing people are mad at them, feeling like they have to.
22:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Apologize or be perfect or all these things, even if they had a pretty whole hum upbringing.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: People need to hear that.
22:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
22:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So something I'm seeing a lot on social media that I agree with is people who say everybody wants a village and on wants to be a villager,
22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then at the same time with everything in your book and what we're discussing here, it can be hard to find that balance of you want to be a good friend.
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to be there for people.
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is necessary.
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the first person.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: If anyone listens to all my episodes, the message they are getting is you do have to show up.
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You do have to be in convenience.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot never be in convenience and then expect that you have the village that said,
23:19
[SPEAKER_00]: you could see where it can go too far and it's hard to, how do you helping with people at that?
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Knowing the difference between people pleasing and just being part of a community and having to show at Holyly.
23:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate this conversation because I think we're so black or white and how we talk about these things.
23:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like boundaries.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't owe anyone anything and protect your peace and we are overcompensating and then we are isolated from community and we are not good friends anymore and so it's it is such a balance and I think people that are drawn to healing people pleasing have probably found their identity and being helpful and in being overly helpful.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important to understand that my lens is in healing the fauna's bonds.
24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so that we can actually have closer relationships because what happens with the fauna's bonds is when we are wanting to be seen as perfect and good, no one's actually really getting to know us.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: We're showing them the best version of ourselves.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We're always saying, yes, we're always doing the quote right thing.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But it often can lack this emotional intimacy because we're always being good.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk about the kind of difference between being nice versus compassionate.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So nice might be like always saying, yes, no worries if not.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, always giving.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But when that is happening again again and we're silencing our needs all the time,
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: that can lead to resentment in our relationships.
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe on the inside, we're like having fake arguments with them.
24:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe this, but on the outside, like, yeah, totally, is that being a villager?
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that being a good friend if you're talking about them behind their back?
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you're actually really upset with them, but you're not able to have an honest conversation versus compassionate?
25:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, giving.
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: showing up for your friends, post-partum, and when they're grieving a parent and all of these things that life brings, and it's also being connected to ourselves at the same time.
25:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's understanding our needs and our emotions and being able to have uncomfortable honest conversations with the people close to us in our lives.
25:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why that's compassionate,
25:30
[SPEAKER_01]: is because we're then able to be a good friend long-term because resentment festers and so maybe we are so resentful in a relationship because we're constantly saying yes, we want to say no or we're dishonoring our time or whatever it may be to an extreme we can't do that forever.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to burn out in that relationship and then we start to distance ourselves or whatever versus being compassionate, being honest, being a clear direct communicator,
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: we are able to show a long term because we're able to be ourselves and show for them at the same time.
26:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that to me is the true balance.
26:08
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, healing the Father's bonds moves towards being a villager and wanting a village.
26:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It moves towards having community because we're able to really be our true selves in that community.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And isn't that what community is is being
26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes practice.
26:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what it comes down to.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you have to practice being there for people and not being over the top about it.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just using laymen's count.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be so black and white.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And in terms of how to find that line a few things I find helpful.
26:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one, notice resentment.
26:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice when resentment starts to come up.
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sometimes if we're just like exhausted and we're, oh, I really don't want to do this, but that's just what a good friend does.
26:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And you just have to push through that.
26:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But if there's resentment coming from saying yes, when you don't need to be saying yes, you're going, like you're saying, so for the top and a way that no one's expecting of you, like, don't be a hero.
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's expecting you to show up.
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: every single day you're doing the most when no one needs that for me.
27:14
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a sign if you start to have those fake arguments in your head or whatever it may be and then pausing also and asking yourself, do I need to be doing this?
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Why am I doing this?
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I doing this because I'm trying to prove myself in some way or am I doing this because I actually want to.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: This just feels good to be there for that person.
27:33
[SPEAKER_01]: what's also really true is we can't do that for everyone in the world.
27:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a really important distinction is I think doing this sort of work really forces us to reflect on what relationships mean the most to me.
27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I know for me it's really parsed through.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely like a quality over quantity person.
27:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm someone that's always had just like a close handful of really good friends because I want to be able to drop everything for those people.
28:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that if I'm trying to do that for everyone, I'm going to be a really bad friend to everyone.
28:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would so much rather have a close core group and also a broader community of course, but just to be really, really known by those few people, so that I can really show up for them.
28:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't do that for everyone, but I think when we're in this chronic fauna response, we think we have to.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't.
28:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a balance.
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: and learning to tolerate disappointing people.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes people will be disappointed.
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to take that in sometimes.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that quote I read of yours.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just people's opinions in terms of whether they like you or not.
28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's they may genuinely be disappointed.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You may genuinely have disappointed them.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, living with it, hard.
28:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It is hard.
28:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to bring up that quote again because it brought me back to that of this isn't to say no one's mad at you.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone loves you.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not to say that.
28:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually saying it's actually okay and normal to not be liked by everyone.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you like everyone?
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably not.
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's okay if some people don't like you as well for people that are in the fun response That feels like such a big deal because conflict feels so big.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So we avoid conflict a lot But it can actually just be fine.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't have much in common
29:21
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not friends.
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a big deal.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a neutral thing.
29:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that we're lying to ourselves, saying no one's ever mad at you.
29:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We're never taking accountability.
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We're never self-reflecting.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually being honest with ourselves.
29:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes people will be mad us.
29:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes people will be upset with us.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that requires self-reflection and accountability.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And other times, there's nothing to be done.
29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's soothing ourselves through the discomfort of that
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: contorting ourselves and trying to control how the other person is perceiving us, but it's very hard and it's very much a practice.
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so beautifully said.
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I love how you summarize that.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one of the practices you have, because we keep telling people they need to practice, and I think we all do, is the nicer technique, and I would love you to describe that.
30:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a big part of my clinical work is rooted in mindfulness, and I integrate a lot of Buddhist-based
30:14
[SPEAKER_01]: mindfulness in general has just been such a huge part of my trauma healing and I use it a lot clinically, but also a lot personally as well.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And so nicer is a mindfulness technique to guide you through some steps in processing discomfort, being with emotions and thoughts that are unpleasant or hard to be with.
30:36
[SPEAKER_01]: NYSER stands for N, notice, notice what that emotion is.
30:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You're even just noticed that something has shifted, that some anxiety has come up.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say that your friend invited you to go out tonight or to have a late dinner, and you are really tired from a long week at work.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say thank you so much for the invite.
30:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually feeling so tired, I'm going to go to bed early tonight, and I will see you this weekend because you're seeing them later.
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say no, but then you immediately feel this guilt, or you start overthinking, oh my gosh, maybe they're silent with me, maybe I should have just pushed through, maybe I should be a villager and go eat absolutely everything and so this guilt starts to come up.
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: The nicer technique invites us to first notice, notice that guilt.
31:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice that something has changed.
31:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You said no, now you're feeling guilty.
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just acknowledging that experience.
31:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I invite it to stay.
31:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So normally I think for many of us, when we feel an uncomfortable emotion, our instinct is to shove it away.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't be feeling this, which wrong with me or pick up our phone and scrolls so that we don't have to feel that.
31:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's where all the addictions, I think probably come from it.
31:45
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
31:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything, but inviting it to stay.
31:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
31:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And it makes sense like we're hardwired to resist discomfort in many ways.
31:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So the true practice is increasing our tolerance for it and slowly and safely is very important.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And then see having curiosity about it.
32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, triggered this.
32:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
32:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I said no.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt really good about that.
32:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But then a few minutes later, some guilt crept in because I feel like I need to say yes to everything.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: What if she replaces me with her other good friend?
32:12
[SPEAKER_01]: What if I'm no longer
32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm having curiosity about that.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: How does this feel in my body?
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: What sensations are going along with this?
32:23
[SPEAKER_01]: My palms are sweating, have this sick feeling in my stomach.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, curiosity.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: E and brace.
32:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This is also hard for people, which is having just some gentle compassion for that part.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: These emotions are trying to protect us in many ways.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: This guilt is probably trying to protect you from being abandoned or being rejected by your friend, so embracing this part of ourselves, this emotion, this is okay, I'm safe.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay that you're here, it's like we're wrapping this this emotion and a blanket.
32:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Suiting ourselves is it taking a few deep breaths.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: The last step is R, which is returned to what's real and true right now.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So we just went through this guilt.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: This guilt may be took us to future scenarios or to what we were saying in the past.
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so important with mindfulness to end with what's actually happening.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: What's actually true in this moment?
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: My body is breathing.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear these sounds in the room, my feet are on the ground.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: By doing that, we're processing the guilt, we're allowing it to be there, but we're also coming back to what's actually true because I think for many of us that relate to this question of our humanity, we can go through it a million times and then kind of get stuck in this loop.
33:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So to finish with the present was here, is a really important step.
33:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's nicer.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so helpful.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean you guys people you have to read the book everybody.
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean that's very helpful the year in this episode But I want everybody to read the book the final thing I want to talk about is I'm thinking now about my own kids So the social media stuff concerns me a lot.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking about I at least have a good chunk of life without that kind of validation seeking
34:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, I'm a podcaster.
34:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been a writer for a long time and I'm out there with the validation seeking probably just as much as anybody, but I at least had a life without it.
34:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, cash for the kids.
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's kids and ourselves.
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So adults, you know, too, we're all in it.
34:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen in your work are people able to separate that world of validation needing and people pleasing.
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: How does it?
34:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Just talk to me.
34:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad you brought that in.
34:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's honestly one of my favorite angles to talk about with the fun response because while I do think this response has been around for a long time, I think there's a modernized element to it.
34:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk with this really briefly in the book, but I almost wanted to do a whole chapter on it, but it felt like it felt like a diver's been in some way.
34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it could be your next book.
34:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so for real, are you mad at me?
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you like me?
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's almost like a different twist and I agree with me at it, me?
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Your next book is, do you love me?
34:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you like me?
34:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're just going to be on the right pole right now.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So with social media, I think this are you mad at me thinking is especially prevalent now because we have so many ways to connect.
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, we have a lot of ways to feel forgotten.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So why did they see my Instagram story, but didn't respond to my text?
35:15
[SPEAKER_01]: and why do they only thumbs up my message and not hurt it?
35:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Or why do they like someone else's thing but not mine?
35:24
[SPEAKER_00]: This is all over TikTok and people fight with me.
35:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll get in comments and yeah.
35:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Because people will be in there and say like, I'm stranger support me and your friends don't you hear that a lot?
35:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people just like to use social media very passively.
35:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Most regular people do.
35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
35:38
[SPEAKER_01]: This is such a perfect what we were saying before.
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're so busy.
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just picking up our phones.
35:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I think many people are just watching.
35:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not engaging with people.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the expectation that everyone's going to like our social media stuff and support it is so out of whack.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if your friend was a lawyer, are you in the courtroom being like, good job.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You did such a good job.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody asks you to be someone who posts a lot.
36:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in such agreement with that as someone who does content creation for sharing their work.
36:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I would never expect my friends to be liking and engaging with everything I'm posting because that would be a lot.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot.
36:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really posting one to two times a week, but that's still a lot.
36:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm never checking.
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not how I feel supported by friends.
36:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I would rather them support me in other ways.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Most people are out there who post about this, really say, you're a fake friend.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Your real friends are liking your stuff and I'm always like, guys, stop it.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's such an important piece because with social media, we have all these ways to feel validated.
36:40
[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening, physiologically in what we're talking about.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So you post something and you're anticipating the dopamine of all your friends liking it.
36:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Plus,
36:49
[SPEAKER_01]: strangers, or you go viral or whatever the like fantasy is.
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it doesn't happen and you feel this disappointment, you feel let down because you're anticipating dopamine that you did not receive.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then maybe it triggers, are you mad at me?
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong with me?
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we look at our post again and pick ourselves apart.
37:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I should have put this photo in the first carousel and then the other one were we're picking it apart.
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: My captions were too big.
37:13
[UNKNOWN]: What for this?
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so cringe.
37:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so gringy.
37:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong with me?
37:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, like we're talking about, people are just consuming quite passively in the five minutes that they have in between calls or whatever, as opposed to before of social media.
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have that.
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I was you call someone, you write them an email, and those were the only sources of validation that we are receiving.
37:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that social media is adding this extra layer of, are you mad at me thinking?
37:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we have the option to receive that validation.
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it can trigger these feelings of rejection or abandonment.
37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: When they're not really true or real, we live in a digital world.
37:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We exist in this.
37:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really about learning how to be in relationship to it.
37:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it starts with first just acknowledging the dynamic that we have in that relationship to social media.
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And to relate it to us something we were talking about earlier that fear might be true and you might have to live with it.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Meaning that your friends don't like your stuff.
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't connect with them.
38:12
[SPEAKER_00]: They've do find it annoying.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure some of mine find mine annoying.
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not your audience necessarily.
38:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold on.
38:17
[SPEAKER_01]: and then move on exactly and then it's the same process of instead of how can I make my next post be better?
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: How can I make my next thing appeal to this person that didn't like it?
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, how can I soothe myself through this comfort of someone maybe not liking or connecting or resonating with what I'm sharing?
38:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How could I sue myself through this comfort of getting 10 likes on my last post?
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't delete it.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Let yourself be in that discomfort.
38:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's temporary.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fleeting.
38:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That discomfort is already on its way out.
38:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Put your phone down and move on with your day.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Decentrate a bit.
38:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And you will survive that discomfort.
38:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And every time you move through that discomfort and acknowledge yourself, oh my gosh, that was so hard and I did it.
39:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You're building yourself trust to do it again.
39:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You're showing yourself that you can be uncomfortable and safe at the same time.
39:08
[SPEAKER_01]: What a life skill.
39:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so important.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's beautiful.
39:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And to end on a note of hope, are you seeing the reaction to your book, the reaction to your own social media posts and your actual work in the clinical sense?
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you seeing people improve?
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you seeing people really be able to work through this?
39:24
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, clinically in the most profound way, those are people actually speaking with on a regular basis.
39:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's just the most fulfilling thing ever.
39:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been receiving lots of sweet messages from the book, and I think just making people feel less alone.
39:41
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, like, you're not alone in feeling and worrying about these things, but also it's not that we're trying to fix
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: or change ourselves, it's actually allowing space for these emotions and feelings to exist and knowing how to be with them, changing a reaction to it as opposed to changing it.
40:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope and think that that's been what's empowering to people because it's like less to do.
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, my hope is it's not a book that's like lecturing you on what to do.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually liberating you on, you can do it right now.
40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It does exactly that.
40:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Meg, thank you so much for being here today with me.
40:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This was such a huge treat for me, both selfishly and as just a gift to my listeners too to be able to have this, you know, one-on-one through me.
40:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So, well, thank you for having me so appreciate it.
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, and listeners, come back next week when our friendships are going well, we tend to be calmer and just happier all around.