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How Do We Converge Generatively? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body and energy flow together.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the new episode of Life In Flow podcast.
• 1:20
  Here we are again,
• 1:22
  Yulia,
• 1:23
  Polina and I,
• 1:25
  Irina,
• 1:25
  will be steering the flow today.
• 1:29
  and today we will continue some part of the discussion that we
• 1:35
  had some episodes
• 1:39
  ago so in one of the previous episodes we were discussing
• 1:48
  supposedly how the
• 1:56
  Concept of the individuality and the collectivity would weave
• 2:02
  together in an ideal
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: world that we would like to live in.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we were exploring the concept of utopia and how the individual and the
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: collective should function together.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: The question was posed as the antagonism
• 2:26
  initially between the individual and the collective and in our
• 2:32
  exploration one of
• 2:33
  the main principles that emerged for our utopia was the
• 2:44
  principle of yes and
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: basically what was said is that not necessarily
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Those two concepts of those two phenomenons should be the antagonisms,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: that they should coexist and co-create together.
• 3:04
  And although I totally support generally the principle of yes
• 3:15
  and,
• 3:16
  and I think
• 3:19
  We definitely need to integrate it more in our practice and in
• 3:24
  our life to make our
• 3:25
  world and our life more generative I couldn't stop thinking
• 3:33
  since that our
• 3:35
  discussion that the world actually can't function based only on
• 3:43
  the principle yes
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: and I will explain it
• 3:49
  a little bit in different terms as I probably have mentioned
• 3:54
  before I have quite a
• 3:55
  lot of experience in creative thinking facilitation and so any
• 4:02
  creative process
• 4:03
  doesn't mean the content doesn't matter what the context is so
• 4:07
  any creative process
• 4:08
  is always an iteration between different divergent and
• 4:13
  convergent phases and
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: We can't have a creative process just based on one part.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to diverge,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: we need to explore all kinds of different options,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: to explore the novelty,
• 4:32
  but sooner or later we also always need to evaluate and to
• 4:37
  reduce the options.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise we will end up in a creative chaos or how...
• 4:47
  One of my teachers tends to phrase it so like there is this
• 4:54
  realm of infinite
• 4:56
  possibilities where everything is possible but nothing actually
• 5:04
  happens because
• 5:06
  it's all just possibilities so for these possibilities to take
• 5:11
  form we need to
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: bring these possibilities into the
• 5:15
  realm of the matter where things not everything is equally
• 5:23
  possible and so like we
• 5:26
  are obliged to reduce the options and to focus our efforts on
• 5:30
  something and to say
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: no to other options and
• 5:41
  From this perspective,
• 5:42
  the principle of yes and is the principle of the generator
• 5:47
  phase.
• 5:49
  We are saying yes to any other options and it allows us to
• 5:56
  explore the novelty,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: to explore the new possibilities,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: to explore this realm where everything is possible.
• 6:03
  But sooner or later we need to go back to the realm where we
• 6:08
  have to say no to things.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I want to discuss today.
• 6:18
  How we can combine the principle of the yes and with other
• 6:28
  convergent tools that
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: would allow us to make things happen but without
• 6:39
  killing the novelty and the infinite possibilities of the realm
• 6:45
  of yes and.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I framed it as the following question.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do we converge generatively?
• 6:56
  And before we go to our traditional game,
• 7:04
  which will be a little bit different today,
• 7:08
  I want to explain two rules that we will be following during
• 7:17
  today's discussion.
• 7:19
  The first rule is because the focus of our today's conversation
• 7:26
  is actually focus
• 7:30
  To help us to reduce the options we will be using our masks
• 7:36
  today again so we will
• 7:38
  be following the majority part of our discussions with our eyes
• 7:44
  closed so we could
• 7:46
  focus only on the discussion and would not be distracted by the
• 7:49
  visuals but we will
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: put the mask on later a little bit
• 7:55
  And another rule that I want to introduce is and this is the
• 8:01
  invitation for all the
• 8:02
  three of us but also for any listeners who are listening to us
• 8:09
  I want to invite you
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: to set an intention for this conversation
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be like whatever intention that pleases you.
• 8:23
  It might be related to the topic of the conversation or it
• 8:27
  might be something very
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: personal for you.
• 8:31
  So right now what I want you to do is to occupy with your whole
• 8:42
  body this intention
• 8:49
  Pay attention to how somatically this intention expresses
• 8:55
  itself in your body So I
• 9:06
  invite you throughout the conversation to maintain your focus
• 9:15
  on this somatic
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: expression
• 9:18
  of this intention that is to say like keep your attention on
• 9:24
  this sensation in the
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: body that is the manifestation of your intention for you deal?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: good because of the topic of our conversation
• 9:43
  Our game,
• 9:44
  unlike all our previous games,
• 9:47
  will also be focused on conversions.
• 9:52
  Do you know this game sometimes people play when they do an
• 10:01
  interview of someone and
• 10:08
  they give them like sort of the choices they need to pick from
• 10:16
  like you choose this
• 10:18
  or that or what you choose this or that and like these are
• 10:21
  normally like the funny
• 10:23
  choices that still allow the listeners to know somewhat better
• 10:30
  like the interviewee
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: so we will do something like that i will present you a set of choices
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: each of you,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: each of us,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: because I will be participating too,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: of course Each of you have to choose one And you can't say it depends,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: both,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever So for each option,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: you need to choose just one option for each alternative So,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: let's begin
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Know the future or change the past?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do you pick?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Change the past.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Know the future.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would pick change the past too, I think.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, Ira, you have done so.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, I have to deal with my choice.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't prepare, but I think no, I will pick no of the feature too.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, to regret a yes or to regret a no?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: To regret a yes.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: To regret a no.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with Paulina.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would pick to regret a no too.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm too conservative.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: What button would you like a life to have?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: A rewind button or a pause button?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: A rewind or a pause?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Take a pause.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Paulina, you need to be quick.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just do it, Paulina.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Rewind.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Rewind.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I will choose the rewind button.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Live in a world without secrets or in the world without surprises?
• 13:18
  Without secrets Without surprises I would choose without
• 13:38
  surprises too because if
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: these are surprises
• 13:42
  which are no secrets then it means that it's really very
• 13:45
  chaotic surprises so and
• 13:47
  the secrets would lead to surprises anyway so I think the world
• 13:54
  without surprises
• 13:55
  but with secrets so those are very sneaky questions of course
• 13:59
  we are at the
• 14:01
  disadvantage of not having thought through them right I don't
• 14:06
  have the answers for
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: them so I'm coming up with the answers right now
• 14:12
  But knowing the future allows you to change the past Well
• 14:17
  knowing the past or
• 14:19
  actually Or changing the past changes the future Because if
• 14:25
  it's the antagonistic
• 14:26
  options we assume that if you know the future you can't change
• 14:31
  the past or if you
• 14:34
  can't change the past you change the future but you don't know
• 14:38
  what it will be
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the next one.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: A world where nobody lies or a world where nobody judges?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: A world where no one judges.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: No one judges.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, we have converged.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Be incapable of lying or incapable of detecting when others lie to you?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Incapable of lying.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think I agree.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, probably.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to diverge, but no.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Feel everything.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone around you feels or never feel anything at all again.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Go for feeling whatever that is Feeling it all Yeah,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: let's feel it Be the most lovable person in the room or the wisest?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wisest Yeah Okay,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 15:58
  I agree I have been the lovable person for my whole life So
• 16:01
  let's go for the wisest
• 16:02
  now Do you want to know a hurtful truth or prefer living in a
• 16:08
  peaceful life?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hurtful truth.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is truth, huh?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: That is the deep philosophical question.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: We don't dive into it right now, so you have to pick an option.
• 16:32
  Okay,
• 16:32
  I'm going to go for truth,
• 16:34
  but just because the other option is just
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're picking... What pill was it?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: The blue or the red one in the matrix?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like... We're choosing the truth.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:55
  Constantly relieve your most embarrassing moment or permanently
• 17:00
  forget your happiest memory.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're going to
• 17:10
  Constantly be reliving that horrible moments the happy will
• 17:16
  have no place right?
• 17:21
  Well they can coexist I just forget the happiest moment Yeah I
• 17:28
  agree Yulia?
• 17:38
  Feel like I'm being tricked here Most probably I'm not gonna
• 17:49
  get my happiest moment
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: okay Relieve
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: What are the options again?
• 18:02
  Continuously relieve the most horrible Constantly relieve your
• 18:06
  most embarrassing
• 18:07
  moment or permanently forget your happiest memory I'm gonna go
• 18:12
  actually for the
• 18:13
  embarrassing moment because who said that I cannot make it you
• 18:18
  know instead of
• 18:20
  embarrassing something else I totally agree it's a very
• 18:25
  generative approach it's
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: very you know like self-growth
• 18:29
  But I will forget the happiest memory and will create a new
• 18:34
  happy memory Okay,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: that's another way to approach it Okay,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: be someone who starts everything and finishes nothing or one who finishes
• 18:46
  everything but never starts anything new I'll go for the first
• 18:51
  one First one I'm
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: the first one too
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 19:00
  understand every living creature but lose the ability to speak
• 19:05
  to humans or stay as
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: you are.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely the first one.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely the first one.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, I will stay as I am.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love humans.
• 19:22
  I will develop the ability to talk to living creatures on my
• 19:28
  own without any magic
• 19:31
  But that's not the game The game is to choose the option The
• 19:35
  game is to have to
• 19:36
  choose and there's no like workarounds for the purposes of the
• 19:40
  game The option says
• 19:43
  stay as you are the way as I am I can understand living
• 19:48
  creatures You can?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well
• 19:52
  To the extent my fantasy works,
• 19:54
  I can,
• 19:55
  so I will work with my fantasy,
• 19:58
  with my imagination.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Always know the right thing to do,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: but like the courage to do it,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: always have the courage,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: but never be sure you're right.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll go for the courage.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Courage.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Courage.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're going for the courage.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Your dreams at night become public or you never have dreams again?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Never have dreams again.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: My dreams become so public.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't know what to pick.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I will go for public dreams too.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I very rarely remember my dreams.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe this way I will know what actually I'm dreaming about.
• 20:54
  Everyone can read your thoughts or you can read everyone's
• 20:59
  thoughts but can never turn it off.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I can read everyone's thoughts.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, probably.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also gonna be reading the thoughts of others.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with this choice.
• 21:15
  Be fully seen,
• 21:17
  including the parts you hide,
• 21:19
  or be loved but misunderstood.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go for being seen.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Being seen.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Being seen.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Agree.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Be limited by the community that needs you or be totally free and lonely.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Free and lonely.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: What is free exactly?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't buy anything free.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: So are you choosing the community?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm gonna be bound by my community but then unbind myself.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I will not be ever free.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think I will choose the community too.
• 22:12
  You can only say yes for a whole year or you only say no for a
• 22:19
  whole year.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm also gonna go for no.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think I will pick this one too.
• 22:38
  But we would not make,
• 22:40
  maybe we would,
• 22:42
  some kind of viral TikTok video based on this experience.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Have unlimited options, but choose only once.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or have only two options, but choose as many times as you want.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it's new two options all the time?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, there are only two.
• 23:13
  What's the point of multiple options if there's only two
• 23:16
  options,
• 23:17
  multiple options?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: you pick one,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: then you pick the other,
• 23:22
  then you pick the first one again Basically in the first
• 23:29
  version you have one way
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: or one path The range is wide,
• 23:36
  but you choose one and you can't change your mind And the
• 23:40
  second option you can
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: change your mind,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: but the options are limited No,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll choose one,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: the first one,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: many options
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm probably also gonna go for the first one.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Between one and two, but the range is wider in the first.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, I will pick the second one.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, like... Doubting between the options is my thing.
• 24:12
  Every choice you make is final and irreversible or every choice
• 24:17
  can be undone.
• 24:19
  but none of them ever fully counts first one okay go for number
• 24:33
  one as well okay i
• 24:38
  will pick this one too but keep in mind this choice because we
• 24:43
  will talk about it
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: now so now let's
• 24:48
  put our masks on and I have to admit that I feel somewhat
• 24:56
  nervous because although
• 24:58
  we have done these blindfolded episodes a couple of times
• 25:03
  already and it was an
• 25:05
  amazing experience it's my first time facilitating this way and
• 25:10
  well let's see how
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I cope
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, let's discuss the experience we have just had.
• 25:25
  My first question is how do you feel when you are obliged to
• 25:33
  choose one option?
• 25:50
  I mean it depends not to converge on one answer because it
• 25:58
  depends on many things
• 26:01
  on the stakes for example when you play the game there is um
• 26:10
  you know there's a
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: thought experiments
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: when something important is happening.
• 26:22
  I'm actually now thinking of this decision or option that I
• 26:30
  picked like about six
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: weeks ago when my son was really sick for about a month and
• 26:44
  Basically I needed to pick an option of whether continue to you
• 26:52
  know to treat him
• 26:57
  myself that was kind of my responsibility it happened to be or
• 27:04
  you know ask him to
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: be or you know get him hospitalized that was very
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Challenging decision to make.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Very challenging one.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I would have gone through a long thought process before.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I would have gone through
• 27:44
  like a lot of stress which the stress I did have but I found
• 27:52
  the courage I think
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: instead to go to a place or a space where I would ask for
• 28:04
  um you know some guidance guidance from my intuition or from
• 28:12
  kind of like the
• 28:13
  environment the space around me um a tree specifically pine
• 28:20
  tree that i regularly
• 28:22
  go to when i um am feeling like i don't know i'm feeling
• 28:28
  confused and feeling like
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: very uncertain um
• 28:34
  And it was like a really I think the first time that this
• 28:39
  magnitude of a decision
• 28:41
  for me it was like a yeah big one that I made it from this
• 28:51
  space of intuition and
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: knowing
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: in the field in the field of other beings in the relational field.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I did ask for support,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:05
  from that those other beings as compared to just relying on a
• 29:16
  lot of rational
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: waking state analysis.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And because it in the retrospect, it
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: worked out maybe,
• 29:32
  but I really now look at that experience as something that I
• 29:37
  want to carry with me
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: for when other similar situations arise.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I just really enjoyed making that decision not from a place of
• 30:00
  Not from a place of outside facts but from a very embodied
• 30:05
  place So what I hear is
• 30:18
  that the choice might be difficult when the stakes are high and
• 30:23
  especially when
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: it's the question of health
• 30:29
  uh well-being of the loved ones or just generally like let's
• 30:37
  call it death for life
• 30:40
  people the responsibility of the choice is really very heavy
• 30:52
  but i have a question
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: for you yula um
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Besides this beautiful story that you have shared,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: when the stakes are not that obvious,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: how do you feel when you still have to choose one option over the other?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think in general I actually feel relieved because
• 31:27
  Converging is not my strongest skill actually I would like to
• 31:34
  be able to convert
• 31:36
  more and you know sometimes life just puts it into this into
• 31:41
  this conditions right
• 31:43
  when it's just one thing that you can choose but for example in
• 31:50
  my life right now
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: or as far as I can remember
• 31:56
  My problem is not being able to actually converge and put all
• 32:03
  of my focus or maybe
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: most of my focus on this one thing or these two things.
• 32:10
  And maybe I'm taking this conversation now and with an
• 32:16
  intention of looking for some clues.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: how I could converge at the moment.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's something that I would like to do more of.
• 32:38
  But what exactly I just like I because I also have the problems
• 32:44
  with convergence
• 32:45
  but I don't want to assume that my problems are the same as
• 32:50
  your problems so I want
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: to understand what exactly make it difficult for you to choose
• 33:01
  I imagine that I can understand the relief when the choice is
• 33:07
  made Yeah I have a
• 33:14
  lot of passions and interests that I get carried away by I do
• 33:25
  now have a pretty
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: good idea of what it is I
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: am kind of capable of doing or,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: just been to this experience of vision quest or,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: like what kind of my unique relating to this world,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: what kind of gift I have.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I see so many paths to doing that, that, you know,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Getting rid of one is difficult.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I like, I love writing, actually.
• 34:08
  Well,
• 34:08
  and this I need to,
• 34:12
  you know,
• 34:13
  whatever,
• 34:13
  to make money or to do something else.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it's as if I'm
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I know that if I'm focused,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: which is not focused,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: focused on all of them,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: let's say on like four or five projects that I have,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: I won't really be deep or
• 34:52
  um you know in in uh in one of those paths so paradoxically or
• 34:59
  very you know as
• 35:00
  expected maybe that path will stay unexplored uh yeah maybe
• 35:10
  it's um you know like
• 35:12
  formal i don't know i'm sorry what was the word the fear of
• 35:18
  missing out yeah okay
• 35:22
  Yeah,
• 35:23
  this is what I was thinking of,
• 35:26
  because that is definitely my problem with convergence.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: If I say no to one option,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: then what are all the possibilities that I'm losing,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: supposedly,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: if I choose one and not the other?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Polina?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Could you repeat the question?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel when you're obliged to choose only one option?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Versus not choosing the option?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or one option out of many options?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: One option out of several.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not choosing is also an option.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: But no, actually no.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is the very interesting clarification.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I will go back to that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: When you have to choose.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Not making a choice is not an option.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: You have to choose one out of several.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel?
• 36:44
  You would have to give me more variables for me to tell you how
• 36:47
  I feel because we
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: always have to choose an option.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: You don't encounter yourself?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: For example, how did you feel in the game that we played?
• 37:04
  But that's a different game because we're being forced between
• 37:08
  two options that I
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: don't necessarily agree with.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And still you have to pick one.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: How does it make you feel?
• 37:26
  like it's a game okay so like we're reducing the stakes yeah
• 37:34
  like like if you had
• 37:36
  to up the stakes i would probably have more feelings okay do
• 37:42
  you encounter in your
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: life situations when you have to make a choice and does it
• 37:50
  Does it happen for you easily or does it create any emotions,
• 37:59
  feelings for you?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, because we're not able to see the future and we can't rewind.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we can't hit pause because there's a natural timeline.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's...
• 38:17
  I guess making choosing is um it depends on the situation but
• 38:24
  at the end of the day
• 38:25
  it is um a gamble and it's a gamble where you you really have
• 38:35
  very little input or
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: control it's um it's just a risk you take hoping for
• 38:45
  some potential outcomes that will be generative and also
• 38:50
  knowing that potentially
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: you're signing up for a lot of variables that you could not foresee.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: so do I understand it right that in the case you described,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: it's not so much the fear of missing other options,
• 39:06
  but rather like the tension of the risk that you can't control
• 39:11
  the outcome of
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: whatever choice you make?
• 39:15
  as well as you never really know truly what variables you're
• 39:19
  signing up for.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:23
  Pauline,
• 39:25
  may also drill in on you a little bit because we discussed this
• 39:34
  at one point.
• 39:36
  Both of us shared that we have a lot of things going on and you
• 39:42
  were sharing that you have
• 39:44
  a lot of different trainings and things that things that you
• 39:49
  feel like you know are
• 39:51
  really important even critical for you to learn yet you know at
• 39:57
  one point you have
• 39:59
  to put on pause something you know or if you continue you feel
• 40:05
  exhausted because we
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: have discussed here that we would
• 40:12
  like give each other prompts to tell more stories and that's
• 40:16
  why you know yeah I
• 40:20
  appreciate it I you're right so like when we had this
• 40:24
  conversation earlier um I was
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think tuning into that's right missing out on some potential um uh
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Futures, right?
• 40:42
  So missing out on potential futures of expansion like almost
• 40:52
  like a subway map and
• 40:55
  one of the tunnels is now not going to be dug so that whole
• 41:01
  territory is no longer
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: explorable because you can't get to it.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you may or may not be able to come back to it,
• 41:08
  but depending on the new tunnels you're going to end up
• 41:11
  building with the choices
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: you're making,
• 41:14
  you may be getting so much further away from these
• 41:19
  potentialities that it really
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: actually changes the entire map.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're referring to, Yul?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was just trying to get you to tell us some stories.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, like a specific story?
• 41:35
  Yeah well for example I really wanted to learn how to
• 41:43
  communicate with animals but
• 41:44
  there's a lot of other trainings that are going on right now
• 41:48
  and so when a specific
• 41:51
  training came up that felt very big in terms of taking what I
• 41:58
  already have to the
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: next level
• 42:01
  I had to put on pause the animal communication because it is
• 42:04
  developing something
• 42:05
  completely new and I wasn't sure where that was going to lead
• 42:10
  versus I could feel
• 42:11
  there was more energy in taking what I already have to the next
• 42:16
  level so I would
• 42:22
  like to be able to stretch in every single possible direction
• 42:26
  and contain and hold
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: all of it and I know that that is
• 42:31
  I do try to create more energy and capacity to do more than I
• 42:35
  think is possible.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a limit.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that's my answer.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you feel when you had to make a choice?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sad.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 42:47
  Because I feel like I'm missing out on a potential experience
• 42:52
  that I would like to have too.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 43:00
  That phrase that you mentioned earlier that I found it very
• 43:05
  curious because when I
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: posed the question you said,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: how do I feel making a choice versus not making a choice at all?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: So does it happen to you often that not make any choice?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:28
  Because making a choice creates this losing the options that
• 43:34
  you're not choosing.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because of that?
• 43:38
  because it's that's not there's not enough energy sometimes to
• 43:41
  make a choice or at
• 43:44
  least not enough energy or clarity to make a choice that would
• 43:50
  help to converge as
• 43:51
  many probabilities as possible into like a potential future I
• 43:55
  would want so if
• 43:55
  there's not enough of those variables present or available then
• 44:01
  then yeah then
• 44:06
  I usually wait to make a choice but of course in waiting to
• 44:09
  make a choice you also
• 44:10
  lose out on a bunch of other probabilities that are possible
• 44:14
  had you made a choice
• 44:18
  may clarify when you say when there is not enough energy
• 44:23
  available what do you mean
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: exactly it's not enough information
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Information is one aspect,
• 44:37
  but sometimes there's also just not enough energy to follow
• 44:41
  through on something or
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: follow a direction.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're not feeling the pull, right?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there has to be energy in the field,
• 44:51
  enough of it to feel a pull to make a decision where you are
• 44:54
  not sure about the
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: variables that you're choosing.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is literally a gamble.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Every single thing we choose is a gamble.
• 45:05
  So I would need some kind of energetic signature for me to feel
• 45:10
  in the field that
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: even though this is a gamble,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: the energy is leading me that way for whatever reason,
• 45:16
  without me knowing why I think it's something similar to the
• 45:23
  guidance that Yulia
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: mentioned in her stories Something that would guide you in this choice
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Something that would make it more alive in the space,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: in the field,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: that I would want to move towards.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is very interesting.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing it because,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 45:51
  I can understand the situation when the choice is not made
• 45:59
  because I think
• 46:03
  At least based on my experience I don't know if you would agree
• 46:06
  with me In the
• 46:09
  situations when there is this lack of energetic signature That
• 46:18
  would pull you in a
• 46:19
  certain direction over the other ones That means that basically
• 46:24
  there is no choice
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: here There is no need of making a choice
• 46:31
  And it is very different when we are avoiding making a choice
• 46:39
  exactly because we
• 46:41
  are just afraid of if I pick this option I will lose the other
• 46:52
  potentialities that
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm potentially closing the doors to because I haven't chosen that option
• 47:03
  The reason why I ask this question is because I also have this
• 47:14
  problems with
• 47:15
  convergence which in my observations happens quite a lot with
• 47:20
  creative people with
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: people who are very can be maybe very easily divergent they usually
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Tend to have problems with convergence.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the main reason is exactly that.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the fear of missing out on other options.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, why do I choose the door here?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want to explore this and that and that.
• 47:54
  So that in making a choice you're also giving up being you and
• 47:58
  you said you wanted
• 47:59
  to stay you remember in one of the two options in the game That
• 48:05
  is interesting why
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: making a choice means you're giving up being you
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: You as you are.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that choice?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: You said, I'm going to stay as I am.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I remember that alternative in the game.
• 48:25
  But you said that also we may have a problem of making a choice
• 48:33
  because by making a
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: choice you are giving up the possibility of being you.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't understand that.
• 48:39
  the possibility no that not the possibility of being you but
• 48:42
  the the ability to
• 48:44
  stay as you are you are potentially giving up because you are
• 48:48
  moving towards
• 48:49
  something else which will potentially change you this is an
• 49:00
  interesting perspective
• 49:05
  Yeah I mean like in all decisions or big decisions anyway about
• 49:13
  the flow of our
• 49:14
  beings and identities and then yeah from the point of view of
• 49:26
  who I am going to be
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: because it's going to affect the whole
• 49:33
  relationship relational network that you are part of right it's
• 49:38
  going to change the
• 49:40
  whole configuration but the question is yeah sorry go on Yulia
• 49:48
  no yet we're making
• 49:49
  decisions um all the time because such as life life uh you know
• 49:53
  change and movement
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: is the only constant that is out there and yet somehow
• 50:02
  this like something something is coming up when it's framed as
• 50:06
  explicitly as a
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: decision it's as if become it becomes
• 50:15
  harder than if you just take it as you know like a sense of
• 50:23
  flow as as the flow of
• 50:25
  life so there is something about improvising versus decisions
• 50:32
  being framed as
• 50:34
  specific decisions that signify something or you know represent
• 50:40
  a fork of some kind
• 50:43
  But what you're talking about,
• 50:46
  is it because of the weight of responsibility?
• 50:53
  Somehow,
• 50:53
  if I make the decision,
• 50:55
  the responsibility for the outcomes is mine.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if I just let myself flow,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: then whatever happens is the responsibility of the higher forces.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: When you're
• 51:15
  It's easier and I think every decision that we make is not
• 51:23
  entirely ours.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of things that go into this decision.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: I forgot the question, sorry.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny that you just framed Flow as potentially giving up agency.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I found it very curious too.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: The stakes are lower because you're not really...
• 51:54
  you're not really making those decisions you know in such a
• 51:58
  kind of binary way if
• 52:00
  you're in flow and also you're not feeling the weight and the
• 52:03
  responsibility of it
• 52:04
  well because i'm just following the flow so it's not really my
• 52:07
  fault that the flow
• 52:08
  took me up to a place where i didn't want to go and you know
• 52:12
  what i totally own
• 52:13
  that this is this is my uh my state and my experience and and
• 52:19
  my process because
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: When I feel like I'm flowing,
• 52:26
  I also feel like I'm surrendering to some extent and I feel
• 52:33
  more guided than I feel
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: in this frame of mind that it's me who is now making a decision.
• 52:49
  I do also have agency but it's just it's a very diffused kind
• 52:53
  of agency yeah yeah
• 52:55
  yeah yeah it's uh no I think I understand what you mean and
• 53:02
  it's definitely like to
• 53:06
  have this shared responsibility for life with life itself is
• 53:11
  definitely takes off a
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: lot of weight of your shoulders
• 53:18
  and I totally agree that making a choice when we are attuned to
• 53:33
  these energetic
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: signatures of each option
• 53:44
  is much easier because sort of it's not about the control I
• 53:54
  think that Polina
• 53:55
  mentioned before but still it's at least in my case how I I
• 54:06
  think it gives you some
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: sort of the feeling of trust in the process
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: that if I feel this attunement with this option and that one,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: then even though I can't predict the outcome,
• 54:25
  I still can trust that whatever happens it will happen in
• 54:36
  attunement with me.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: and that you're going to be able to sustain that.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 54:52
  But I want to go back to that notion of not making a choice
• 55:03
  because any choice will
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: choose who I am.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: will change and shift who you are potentially.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm wondering,
• 55:22
  is it really possible to stay in the static state of your being
• 55:31
  by simply avoiding
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: making a choice?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't think it's a static state to begin with.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's never a static state,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: but it's more of like what Yulia said,
• 55:44
  maybe a diffuse being within the current energetic kind of
• 55:50
  structure or flow,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: whereas a decision would
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: create more ripples in the field.
• 55:58
  You would have to actually move towards something or away from
• 56:03
  something else.
• 56:04
  And that changes the configuration or like the current
• 56:09
  experience of the being in
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: the non-static state you're in now.
• 56:20
  So it's not really what we're talking about is not really not
• 56:25
  making a choice but
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: really like entrusting the choice to the field No,
• 56:36
  it's not making a choice It's making the choice to not make a
• 56:41
  choice to make any
• 56:42
  change and to choose anything new It's just choosing to keep
• 56:46
  being in the state
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: you're in
• 56:50
  But the change will happen anyway Not necessarily You could
• 56:57
  continue avoiding going
• 56:59
  down any of the tunnels and just keep pedaling back Which
• 57:06
  requires also a lot of
• 57:08
  energy and actually does create might create a shift in
• 57:14
  identity as well For
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: example,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: I am
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the one who peddles backwards, right?
• 57:24
  I'm the one who's holding a wall which I know will crumble and
• 57:31
  maybe a decision
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: will be made for me,
• 57:34
  but at this point I'm the one who's just gonna hold on to the
• 57:39
  wall with all my
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: strength and energy that's available to me.
• 57:48
  I mean it's also it's also not static because things happening
• 57:57
  there is this
• 57:58
  energetic intensity um of a kind and we're being changed so
• 58:08
  yeah well some some
• 58:10
  people that go down let's say some rabbit holes and get very
• 58:13
  depressed and very uh
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: shut down
• 58:17
  in a way you could see that as a like a preservation of current
• 58:22
  state not being
• 58:25
  ready or available to make any decisions and just wanting to
• 58:29
  stay in in the current
• 58:30
  state yes but that that that does require a lot of energy
• 58:35
  because depression is you
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: know versus expressing depressing means that you are um
• 58:44
  Directing a lot of energy towards not letting things out and
• 58:50
  keeping them what says
• 58:52
  you know status quo um I'm not sure because um depression is a
• 59:00
  low energy state
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's uh but depression is low energy state state because you know being
• 59:10
  Frozen let's stay at the nervous system level it means that a
• 59:14
  lot of energy is
• 59:17
  trapped and held there and releasing it just feels too
• 59:25
  dangerous you know like
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: things that might explode even at the level of physiology
• 59:40
  Mm-hmm yeah some of it can be like that some of it can be just
• 59:48
  I just cannot make
• 59:50
  any moves or any decisions right now and I don't have enough
• 59:55
  energy to stay present
• 59:58
  to the situation and I'm just gonna shut the engines down and
• 1:00:02
  go into a rest and
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: like not rest in terms of of course
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, kind of a reset state.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: It could be a reset state.
• 1:00:20
  Not engaging with where you're at could also be a break from
• 1:00:26
  having to use energy.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious.
• 1:00:35
  I need to think about,
• 1:00:36
  Balin,
• 1:00:36
  what you're describing,
• 1:00:37
  if it's a state of complete
• 1:00:41
  depletion um you know whether not engaging with anything that
• 1:00:50
  also actually might
• 1:00:51
  require resources as a protective strategy though yeah but
• 1:00:58
  these you know like
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: protective strategy consists as far as i understand
• 1:01:04
  and I don't have my personal experience only from what I've
• 1:01:07
  heard from other people
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: in the explanation of the professionals.
• 1:01:14
  This protective strategy would consist exactly in conserving
• 1:01:20
  the minimum of the
• 1:01:21
  resources that are available just to sustain the organisms at
• 1:01:27
  the survival level
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: and there is indeed there are no
• 1:01:32
  Free Energy Available To Make Any Voluntary Choices But Trapped
• 1:01:43
  Energy In A Lot Of
• 1:01:45
  Cases You Know When That State Of The Nervous System Is There
• 1:01:53
  That's Called Freeze
• 1:01:54
  Response For Example When It's Constantly Like A Constant
• 1:01:59
  Stress Then You Are
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: Actually
• 1:02:01
  going through a lot of energy and any single moments is just
• 1:02:06
  like your adrenals and
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: actually the whole system is burning a lot of energy for protection.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why the energy,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: is not directed anywhere else,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: because protection is our number one priority.
• 1:02:35
  So I want to summarize a little bit the different situations of
• 1:02:42
  avoiding making a choice.
• 1:02:47
  We have the situation when I can't make any choice because
• 1:02:53
  there is no any
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: guidance,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: there's no any energetic signature that would
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: Guided me towards,
• 1:03:02
  would pull me towards one option or another and in my worldview
• 1:03:09
  it basically means
• 1:03:10
  that there is no choice here so like there is no need of moving
• 1:03:15
  in one direction or
• 1:03:16
  another so it's just the choices are false they might be
• 1:03:22
  created by the mind
• 1:03:25
  But there are also the situations when we are avoiding
• 1:03:29
  consciously or unconsciously
• 1:03:30
  of making a choice because we don't want to lose options
• 1:03:34
  because there is this fear
• 1:03:36
  that if I pick one option over the other I will choose the
• 1:03:41
  other option and I want
• 1:03:42
  to have both because we're too divergent and there is also the
• 1:03:50
  option when
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: The way I understood it from the discussion,
• 1:03:57
  I'm actually resisting of making a choice because any choice
• 1:04:05
  would lead to a change
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm making all the efforts possible to stay where I am consciously or
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: unconsciously
• 1:04:18
  Which in my view is also a sort of easy choice But the reason
• 1:04:32
  why I posed this
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: question in the beginning is exactly because in my personal,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: as I mentioned already,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have this problem with fear of missing out
• 1:04:45
  I have a problem with convergence because every choice I make
• 1:04:49
  feels like is the
• 1:04:51
  killer for all other alternatives and it's like sometimes feels
• 1:04:58
  unbearable because
• 1:05:04
  okay you're like I go in this direction doesn't mean that I
• 1:05:08
  will never be able to
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: explore all other paths how come
• 1:05:13
  I want to explore all of them and yet Yulia I think you
• 1:05:21
  mentioned it before so like
• 1:05:23
  if I try to focus on too many options that means that I won't
• 1:05:30
  be able to explore
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: deeply any of them so the question I want to pose
• 1:05:44
  is might be somewhat abstract and philosophical but is a
• 1:05:51
  necessary one and we don't
• 1:05:56
  have enough time due to our time constraints to explore
• 1:06:06
  dutifully all the nuances
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: so the question is
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is the function of a no in life?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: before we move on to that,
• 1:06:26
  I just want to also mention that you touched on another
• 1:06:31
  distinction when you were
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: speaking just now between active choices and passive ones.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we didn't establish those parameters for the discussion.
• 1:06:44
  I feel like the conversation might change if we're talking
• 1:06:47
  about active choices
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: versus passive ones How does it change?
• 1:06:57
  Because passive ones require way less energy and actual
• 1:07:00
  decision What is a passive
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: choice versus an active choice?
• 1:07:07
  I guess when you entrust the choice to the higher forces to the
• 1:07:13
  flow you just let
• 1:07:14
  yourself flow and so it's not me who made this decision it's
• 1:07:17
  life that made this
• 1:07:19
  decision for me I wouldn't call it a passive choice actually at
• 1:07:22
  all so it's I mean
• 1:07:26
  like the whole attunement or even getting to that state of
• 1:07:30
  consciousness that's a
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: lot of effort is there in practice
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: But there are also passive choices.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like?
• 1:07:40
  I don't know,
• 1:07:41
  like three elevator doors to be standing next to this one,
• 1:07:49
  you go into this one.
• 1:07:50
  And then in that one,
• 1:07:50
  you meet the head of a company that you want to work for.
• 1:07:54
  That's like,
• 1:07:55
  it's a passive choice because you just happened to be standing
• 1:07:57
  there.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe if you wanted to be like,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: hmm,
• 1:08:02
  which elevator should I choose to increase my options of
• 1:08:06
  meeting a specific energy
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: on my way up in this building?
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then you choose the middle one.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's more of an active choice.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I agree that, you know, there are many things that...
• 1:08:23
  If we put our deliberate decision-making and the awareness into
• 1:08:28
  every step we're
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: making,
• 1:08:31
  there is no enough energy in the world that we'll be able to
• 1:08:35
  sustain this process.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the outer Marxism exists for a reason.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: They make our life more efficient.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think
• 1:08:52
  If you are generally in the attunement with life then you don't
• 1:09:01
  need to make the
• 1:09:02
  choice like what elevator you need to pick you will be standing
• 1:09:07
  in front of the
• 1:09:08
  elevator that will lead you if it's an important fork of
• 1:09:15
  different alternatives
• 1:09:17
  You will be standing into the elevator which will lead you to
• 1:09:21
  the alternative which
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: is more resonant with you Potentially,
• 1:09:25
  that's just a way to look at variables and that's not even real
• 1:09:30
  But that's a whole
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: other discussion,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: that's okay I'm not going to take us off of the future No,
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's
• 1:09:39
  It's still pertinent to the global question that I'm not even
• 1:09:44
  sure that we will
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: have time to answer today.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we will have to continue again.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: What was the question of no?
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: My global question for the episode was how do we converge generatively?
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: How do we combine
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: the yes and with the necessity of making a choice sooner or later.
• 1:10:20
  So I think some things that have emerged during this discussion
• 1:10:26
  have pointed at
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: least me from what I heard
• 1:10:31
  in the direction of the answer that it is again about this
• 1:10:37
  attunement and paying
• 1:10:42
  attention to these subtle energy signatures as the term that
• 1:10:50
  Polina uses that helps
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: you to flow
• 1:10:57
  with the current of the events and reduces the weight of having
• 1:11:06
  to make a choice at
• 1:11:07
  every step because it seems like the choices are made for you
• 1:11:14
  but before we go to
• 1:11:18
  that and most probably we will have to come back to that
• 1:11:21
  question in another
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: episode because we have only 15 minutes left
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I still want to discuss the necessity of making a choice.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hence my question.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, can I just propose something for another conversation?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, please.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, please.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: What if everything we're talking about,
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: about energy in the field and us making decisions and blah,
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: blah.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: What if none of it is actually true?
• 1:11:56
  Because never are we actually making any decisions We're just
• 1:12:01
  in our little raft
• 1:12:03
  floating along And things have already been decided or
• 1:12:07
  something else is deciding
• 1:12:09
  And the only thing we're really playing with is just being more
• 1:12:13
  conscious about the
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: different variables in the road And thinking we're making decisions,
• 1:12:19
  we're taking this road or that But really we may be standing at
• 1:12:23
  the elevator the
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: entire time
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe it's all a matter of a gamble.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: None of it, there is no meaning.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: There is no decision being made.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems that way in our internal framework.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I accept the invitation and also you gave me the good
• 1:12:55
  a point to lean on for our wrapping up so basically the
• 1:13:02
  question that I want to ask
• 1:13:04
  you to conclude this part of this conversation which we will
• 1:13:09
  continue is based on
• 1:13:12
  what has been said what can you say about the necessity or the
• 1:13:18
  lack of it of making
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: a decision
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: and making the necessity of making decisions from our side.
• 1:13:29
  And Polina just expressed the possibility that we're not making
• 1:13:34
  any decisions at all.
• 1:13:36
  Okay,
• 1:13:36
  and I agree that it's an interesting option that we definitely
• 1:13:45
  need to consider.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe.
• 1:13:49
  Everything is an illusion at all As part of constructing our
• 1:13:54
  subjective or what
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_02: they call transjective realities so I guess you know with the help of our
• 1:14:00
  imagination you know there are so many things that you know we
• 1:14:04
  can frameworks that
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_02: we can see ourselves in right but I would say
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, frameworks, exactly.
• 1:14:22
  The framework is what creates the illusion of whether there is
• 1:14:25
  choice or not.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Also, can we not make choices and decisions?
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what would it look like?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it possible?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it even possible?
• 1:14:35
  But it all depends on the framework that you're looking at the
• 1:14:38
  thing from.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, also, especially...
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: In the context of my recent experience,
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_02: that was a two-week vision quest that was in California,
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_02: which was also called A Journey into the Underworld.
• 1:15:02
  And so the focus was to shift from the waking reality into the
• 1:15:12
  different states of consciousness
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Through imagination,
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: through dream work,
• 1:15:19
  through immersing ourselves in the desert to the extent as if
• 1:15:27
  she was dreaming us,
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_02: which actually,
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_02: like it felt so true.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm being dreamed by this place.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And from that framework,
• 1:15:44
  she was you know like she was kaleidoscoping things to me for
• 1:15:53
  example in one of
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: those experiences which didn't
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them didn't look like I even had a choice about them.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 1:16:10
  one of the questions that I was asking is I was really trying
• 1:16:14
  to understand what it
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: is that I can bring to this world,
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is not my decision to make, I believe.
• 1:16:25
  And oftentimes this is one of the biggest decisions that we are
• 1:16:30
  trying to make,
• 1:16:32
  right?
• 1:16:33
  I guess in that context and in that framework making decisions
• 1:16:40
  look very different
• 1:16:41
  from what we understand usually in our waking state about
• 1:16:45
  making decisions so it's
• 1:16:48
  more like you're already in some kind of flow and you become
• 1:16:53
  aware through you know
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_02: being able to
• 1:16:57
  access the underworld and a lot of the subconscious that is
• 1:17:03
  always trying to
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_02: communicate it,
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: like where you are and what she,
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_02: he,
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_02: it,
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:12
  and the whole world with the moon that I was also kind of
• 1:17:16
  communing with what it is
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: that they are,
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_02: showing to me what is already happening.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it chooses you, not that you choose it.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: It chooses you.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:17:35
  There were actually some decisions that still remained at the
• 1:17:38
  level of waking
• 1:17:39
  consciousness after having traveled to the underworld and
• 1:17:44
  having been present to
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_02: some things to consider.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: But then I came back and there were decisions that I...
• 1:17:53
  I want to stick with those decisions from my waking
• 1:17:57
  consciousness and these are
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_02: more regular decisions Oh,
• 1:18:03
  like the decisions are made somewhere else and our degree of
• 1:18:07
  consciousness and
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: awareness and free will or agency,
• 1:18:11
  whatever you want to call it in the waking state is whether we
• 1:18:15
  will honor the
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: decisions that have already been made at the other level
• 1:18:21
  I don't know like some of it is like that but some of the
• 1:18:24
  decisions I still think
• 1:18:26
  it's I am the one who is investing energy in supporting this
• 1:18:32
  path that I've decided
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_00: to walk right now or for now I like that that's a cool framework
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I am grateful that you have provided me this twist of how to approach the
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: exploration next time.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm taking a note of that the framework is important.
• 1:19:00
  So what kind of all kind of frameworks that we could look at it
• 1:19:04
  from within what
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: framework we're making decisions,
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: what kind of decisions we're making,
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_01: are we making them at all?
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to make a decision?
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's I think it's a
• 1:19:19
  The collective delusion that there are decisions to be made I
• 1:19:22
  think it's an
• 1:19:24
  interesting direction you have pointed the conversation towards
• 1:19:30
  so I think I would
• 1:19:33
  like to continue this exploration and still as a matter of my
• 1:19:42
  own conclusions from
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: what I have heard
• 1:19:47
  I still think that we're still making decisions even if it
• 1:19:52
  seems that everything
• 1:19:57
  what happens nothing depends on me so things are just happening
• 1:20:04
  to me and whether
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: it's because I don't have any energy at all to make any decisions
• 1:20:15
  or because I entrust myself to the higher forces and I say that
• 1:20:22
  they know better
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_01: for whatever reason it's still my choice to choose the framework of my
• 1:20:30
  interpretation of my reality it's still my choice to be in that
• 1:20:37
  state or this state
• 1:20:40
  Or like to decide what does it mean this experience or that
• 1:20:46
  experience that I am in
• 1:20:51
  Or we can reframe what you just said that it's still my choice
• 1:20:55
  and say well you're
• 1:20:57
  choosing to use extra resources and energy to impose your will
• 1:21:02
  to try to change
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_00: what's already been set
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is totally valid interpretation, yes.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: It may be the case.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the interpretation is still my choice.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And there is also that...
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Still,
• 1:21:23
  I'm not buying it all that it's completely my choice or it's my
• 1:21:27
  free choice because
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_02: of the many configurations.
• 1:21:31
  I mean,
• 1:21:32
  like,
• 1:21:32
  if my...
• 1:21:34
  Getting back to the decision about my son,
• 1:21:37
  I mean,
• 1:21:38
  like,
• 1:21:38
  if my...
• 1:21:39
  family history had been different if my this and that had been
• 1:21:42
  different then you
• 1:21:45
  know my decision would have been different so it's never mine
• 1:21:50
  it's always a lot of
• 1:21:52
  it is in the field and part of the configuration yes exactly
• 1:21:59
  you know has a lot of
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_02: roots yeah
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, so this is definitely a big discussion.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So to build a bridge to the future,
• 1:22:11
  I invite our listeners to share their thoughts on whether we're
• 1:22:19
  making choices or
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_01: not at all.
• 1:22:22
  Whether making a choice is a necessary thing or we can just
• 1:22:28
  entrust ourselves into the flow.
• 1:22:33
  Go without making any choices so what is your take at the
• 1:22:37
  moment on the matter of
• 1:22:40
  us making choices and we will meet with you I hope next time in
• 1:22:47
  our next episodes
• 1:22:48
  where we will continue our explorations so thank you very much
• 1:22:54
  to both of you and
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_01: to our listeners for today's flow Thank you Ida
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening How was it for you?
• 1:23:07
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together
• 1:23:11
  the better off we
• 1:23:12
  all are more connected more creative more alive So let's expand
• 1:23:19
  the field If this
• 1:23:21
  episode resonated with you help us spread the word share it
• 1:23:27
  with a friend leave a
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_01: comment or give us a rating We love you
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's keep flowing together.