Latest / Legal Late Night / Interstellar, Inversion, and International Tax: A Deep Dive with Jamie Zug

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Interstellar, Inversion, and International Tax: A Deep Dive with Jamie Zug · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I'm ranking my five favorite Christopher Nolan movies, so buckle up bitches. In the interview, we're talking with Jamie Zug, tax attorney, notable New Jerseyan, and founder of Dispatch Taylor, an executive services program for neurodivergent individuals. In the counter program, Jamie clues me in on all the weird shit that happens in New Jersey. Now, let me release my own homeric catalog of Christopher Nolan movies. (00:00:45): Christopher Nolan, who's a fucking knight, by the way, that's Sir Christopher Nolan to you. We'll relate back to that later on, is a top shelf, modern filmmaker, and his shit almost always works on me. Since 1998, he's basically made nothing but exceptional movies with his films coming out roughly every three years. His scripts are batshit, crazy, pun intended. He works with some of the best actors around, and he relies on practical effects, such that his films never look like they're indiscernible clumps of CGI or AI Slop. He knocks off historical dramas and period pieces like it's his job. His shit is dad core to the max. And while I'm too fucking old to be going to the movies to see a Christopher Nolan film, I will definitely buy that shit on VOD. In fact, I've seen every one of his movies from the comfort of my heated recliner at the end of the sectional couch. (00:01:42): Let's rank my favorites. Starting with the honorable mention category, I'd like to shout out both Memento and Tenet. Memento is his second film, but it sort of kicks off the Nolan verse as it was his first movie to gain real traction. It was based on a story by his brother and frequent collaborator, Jonathan Nolan. And if you haven't seen Memento yet and you don't want to be spoiled, I would skip over this section because there's a twist. Of course, there's a twist in maybe every Christopher Nolan movie and this movie's 25 years old, so you've had some time to watch it before now. And while there is that twist, the whole movie is kind of twisty and turny because it's a giant puzzle that works backwards as the protagonist tries to recover where he came from. As is the case with many Nolan movies, it centers around a believable concept that has blown up almost to the point of unbelievability, but not surpassing that point. (00:02:37): It's a fine line. Here, the main character played by Guy Pierce has anterograde amnesia. It's a specific type of amnesia that renders a subject incapable of making new memories after a traumatic event. Effectively, Leonard, the pierced character, wakes up every day without any memory of his near term life. So he has to piece everything together based on clues he's left for himself. Once he's caught up, he can explore back further. One cool feature of this process is that Leonard gets tattoos to remind himself of what happened. The film has one of the more complex plotting devices you'll ever see in a movie. That's going to become a theme, by the way. Color scenes go backwards. Black and white scenes go forward. And so both the protagonist and the audience get the reveals at the same time. Leonard is the most unreliable narrator there could be because he literally does not remember shit. (00:03:30): The conclusion of Memento is nuts. Leonard thinks his wife has been murdered this whole time and he's out getting vengeance for her death only. He's actually the one who killed her by overdosing her on her insulin medication due to his own condition. Couldn't remember how many doses he had to give her. He has instead been killing various drug dealers at the behest of a crooked cop, whom he now sets out to kill once he finds that part out as the movie is ending. It's kind of like John Wick if John Wick couldn't find his car keys and killed his own dog. Tenet is probably the most complex movie I think I've ever seen in terms of his plot machinations. This time, the central focus is on time travel because of course it is, but you know that Christopher Nolan can't simply install a Mr. Fusion in DeLorean. (00:04:16): That is Christopher Lloyd shit. No, antenna. The process for individuals and objects travel through time is by the use of inversion technology, which reverses their entropy so that they can travel back in time. I have no idea what I just said either. There are inverted people, inverted bullets, fucking inverted McGuffins. You got to keep your head on a swivel antenna. Here's some of the crazy shit that happens in this movie. John David Washington's son of Denzel is hired to work for a secret organization that he actually created. Kenneth Branaw randomly plays a Russian oligarch who wants to destroy the world oddly. It ended up being the American oligarchs who are doing that. There's a temporal pincer movement executed in the film whereby one team of individuals attacks a group from in the past in real time while another team of individuals attacks the same group while moving backwards in time led by Nolan favorite Robert Pattonson. (00:05:19): That seems unfair. This movie is hella confusing in part because the same characters are moving backwards and forwards in time, including at the same time. If you travel back in time, you just don't get there. You have to kind of re-experience the whole thing. If you want to get deep into this shit, there are lots of internet rabbit holes for you to new lawn, but I don't include this movie, which is quite good in my top five because I think Inception does something similar in a more compelling way. Now, importantly, Tenet was the first COVID era film to be released wide at the movies, which happened in the teeth of the pandemic in 2020. It did not make its money back, but it might be said that Christopher Nolan saved the movies, though his relationship with Warner Brothers crashed and burned thereafter. Now he's with Universal. (00:06:05): All right, let's get to the list proper. Number five on my list is Oppenheimer, which is less about some funky sci-fi concept and more about Nolan's fascination with Robert Oppenheimer, the father of the Atomic Bomb. This movie did crazy numbers for historical drama as part of the Barbenheimer summer of 2023, where the culture made a meal out of the double feature of the Barbie movie in this film, both of which came out at the same time, and which were so diametrically opposed, it became a world-class joke. Oppenheimer was based on the seminal biography of the man himself, American Prometheus, and just fucking cleaned up at the Oscars. He was nominated for 13 Academy Awards and won six, including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Killian Murphy. Killian Murphy, Cillian Murphy. I never know how to pronounce his dude's name, and best supporting actor, Robert Downey Jr. Unlike a lot of Nolan movies, Oppenheimer is a straight bio pick. (00:07:03): The film probably has the best cast of any Nolan movie. In addition to The Scarecrow from Batman Begins and Ironman, it's got Emily Blunt, Matt Damon, Florence Pugh, Casey Affleck, Rami Mallick, Kenneth Branaw, that bitch again. Matthew Modine, Gary Olman and more. The centerpiece of the film is a practical effects version of the Trinity Nuclear Bomb Test, which is just overwhelming to watch. It's really good. Lots of people find the second half of the movie burdensome. The first half is basically the development of the bomb. The second half is more like a courtroom drama as Oppenheimer ends up on the wrong side of the McCarthyites and is vilified for prior communist ties. Espectively witch hunt organized by the Downey character who ends up destroying his own career in the process of targeting Oppenheimer. Honestly, I really like both segments of the movie. Murphy is also a tremendous actor and he does an amazing job conveying the growing powerlessness that Oppenheimer feels after he's unleashed this destructive force upon humanity and then almost immediately loses control of it. (00:08:07): Coming in at number four is the aforementioned inception. This is Christopher Nolan's dream movie and it's team up between Nolan and Leonardo DiCaprio, the goat of 21st century actors and another dude who just doesn't mess with his film choices. Inception is very similar to Tenet in that it involves a secretive group entangled in espionage. Except in inception, the team essentially plants ideas into the subconscious of their targets by entering their dreams. There's also a time element in place too where the inceptors, if not awakened from the dream, can remain in a limbo state and experience aging at a rapid rate. Hold that thought. One character in the film remains in a dream for what appears to be 50 years, but awakens in the present. That is some real narnish shit right there. This movie was huge when it came out. It made almost a billion dollars at the Box Office. (00:09:02): It's also been massively impactful in pop culture, parody countless times, referenced in numerous rap songs, and used as a reference point for recursion. Layered or nesting attributes are often given the Suffolk exception based on this film. Of course, because it's effectively an action thriller, inception has some badass dream fight scenes occurring at multiple dream levels at the same time where characters can be kicked into different levels of the dream, active in one, effectively asleep in the others. As you might have guessed, an inception, it's difficult to tell whether you're asleep or awake. In the film, the tension's created by the appearance of a dream version of the DiCaprio character's wife, a fellow inceptor who killed herself when she couldn't discern whether she was awake or asleep. Effectively, the DiCaprio character has to forgive himself for his guilt over his wife's death to move on and so that his dream version of her will stop fucking up all the schemes. (00:09:57): But by the end of the film, it remains unclear whether DiCaprio has escaped his most recent dream or not. That's some classic Nolan shit right there. Now, I think magic is dopey, but the prestige coming into number three on my list is simply dope. The prestige is the first Christian Bail entry on this list. Bale is essential to the Nolan experience and is an amazing actor in his own right, though. (00:10:26): His knack for picking fantastic movies I should say is not quite what DiCaprio's is or Daniel Day Lewis'. We got Hugh Jackmans, Carl Johansson, Rebecca Hall also in this movie. Andy Serkis, Gollum, Michael Kane, who was an eight consecutive Christopher Nolan movies at one point. But perhaps the most amazing is David Bowie, who features as Nicola Tesla. Like a good magic show, the prestige features lots of wild twists. In the film, Jackman and Baylor are competing magicians who are set up for a rivalry when the Bale character screws up tie into Jackman character's wife's wrists during a water tank trick and she dies. From then on, they keep sabotaging each other's tricks until Bale's character comes up with a trick that Jackman can't figure out. Essentially, he transports himself across the stage instantly. This is where the dark arts come into play. The Jagman character asked Nicola Tesla, of course, what else would you do? (00:11:27): The man, not the shitty car company, to build him a device that can replicate the trick, which he does with a catch. Essentially, the Jackman character drops himself into a tank of water, which creates a clone of him simultaneously, but each time he does this, the original or prior version of himself dies and the clone lives on. Yeah, a lot of this shit is concerned with identity if you couldn't tell. So he wins the battle, but effectively loses the war because he eventually finds out that the Bale character is a twin, so no one has to die in his trick. The movie's called The Prestige because that's a third part of the magic trick to reveal. I'm leaving a lot out, but you get the gist. This is a super underrated movie. You should check it out. In the number two position is one of the greatest sequels of all time of The Dark Night, the middle movie in Nolan's Amazing Batman trilogy, starring Baal as Batman and Michael Cain as Alfred. (00:12:20): This is probably the best superhero ever made. Not probably. It is. This movie absolutely fucks. Christian Bale is the best Batman, in my opinion. He's like the non-evil, more tortured version of Patrick Bateman as Bruce Wayne from American Psycho, but he's Ledger as the star of the show here as the Joker. The whole movie's essentially built around him and the performance has partly become iconic because it was released after Ledger's Untimely Death. This was Ledger hitting his stride as he absolutely dog walks everyone in this movie, including Bale who's a generational actor. The movie floors it right from Jump Street with a legendary bank heist scene in which the joker tricks all his accomplices into killing each other so he can make all the money for himself. Then there's a scene where the joker dresses as a nurse and blows up an entire hospital after visiting Two Face and his interrogation scene with Bail as Batman. (00:13:11): He also flips a fucking semi-truck in the middle of Gotham City. Leger is just a psychological tour to force in this movie. I don't even think The Dark Night Rises, which is the third movie in the trilogy is that bad. And I feel like Tom Hardy was pretty good as Bain, but anything coming after this was always going to be a letdown. All right, everybody. We've reached number one on my list of Christopher Nolan movies, and it's obviously Interstellar. Interstellar is the most ad coded movie of all time, and it's Matthew McConaughey's best role. Yes. Better than Woodterson, better than the Dallas Buyers Club, and better than his cameo in the Wolf of Wall Street. Those are rookie numbers. McConaughey plays Joseph Cooper, a former NASA test pilot turned farmer, whose wife has passed away. Cooper lives with his father-in-law and his two kids, an older boy played by Timothy Chalamet, by the way, and a younger girl. (00:14:07): The problem is, at any great time to be a farmer, since they are effectively living in a post-apocalyptic earth with crazy storms and no ability to generate sustained food growth, it's basically the dust bowl, but like forever. Anyway, Coop figures out a secret code, which leads him to a secret NASA lab where they want him to go on a last dish, secret mission to find a new home for humans in space where people can relocate and feed themselves again. Basically, this is Elon Musk's wet dream, just with a whole lot less white supremacy. Now, the problem for Cooper is that he has a 10-year-old daughter who is his partner in crime. She is dead set against him going, but he knows he's got to go out and save the world. So he basically sneaks off to go travel the universe with short-haired and Hathaway. Interstellar is basically a perfect movie. (00:15:02): Each segment is meticulously executed from the opening drone chase to the meeting with Murph, that's McConaughey's daughter's teacher to a different kind of meeting with the NASA folks to each segment of the space exploration portion of the film. Basically, Coop and his team traveled through a wormhole to explore three potentially habitable planets, each with their own dangers. They meet Matt Damon, an evil astronaut who wants to steal their ship. They try a crazy slingshot maneuver to get to the last planet and during a coup past a bail so the Anne Hathaway character can make it to the last planet to sort of restart humanity. But when he does so, he's trapped in a Tesseract. Of course, he is. We can engage with his daughter's childhood room, at which points he realize, hey, he was the one who was sending messages to himself to join the mission. (00:15:51): But Interstellar really is a father-daughter love story at his heart. The most devastating scene in the film takes place after Coop and his team land on a planet where time passes more quickly. One hour on this planet equals seven years on earth. The plan's to only stay for a short time, but a rogue wave ruins that strategy and over three hours passed before Coop and Dr. Brand, that's Anne Hathaway can get back to the ship. This is just a brilliant scene, by the way, where Nolan inserts a ticking sound to mark the passing of time. So when Coop gets back to the ship, he watches video messages from his children who are now adults close to his own age and just breaks down. Apparently, McConaughey did this on the first take with no rehearsals. This is the saddest goddamn thing you'll ever see, and I can't get through it without crying like a baby myself. (00:16:40): Only two things make me cry as a middle-aged dad, Interstellar and every Pixar movie. In the end, Coop is freed from Tesseract and meets his daughter again, but she's on her deathbed and an old woman. Though he and Brand did save humanity, the lingering question of whether it is actually worth it is one of the reasons that makes Interstellar so great. Now, as I mentioned, Christopher Nolan's next movie is The Odyssey, the epic poem as a movie that follows a 20 years long homecoming of the Wiley Odicious post the Trojan War and the Iliad. As liberal artist college graduate and a classics minor, I can already tell you that this movie is going to be number three on my Nolan list once it comes out. This week, the latest trailer for the Odyssey dropped and it is straightfire. The first trailer featured its famous Trojan horse, Odicius' idea, which effectively ended the Trojan War, but now we're getting into the real Odyssey shit. (00:17:38): It's got a lot of the beats. Polyphamus, Cyclops, Caribdus, Menaccila, Charlize Theron is Calypso, the Lasergonians looking amazing, and only a little bit of the sirens, which makes me think there might be an interesting reveal there. The wide shots and the practical effects look sterling. While I have mixed feelings about Matt Damon as auditious, he's one of my favorite characters in literature. And rather than goodwill hunting, I feel like the role was Taylor made for Christian Bale using his English accent. Come on. But I do like Anne Hathaway as Penelope and Tom Holland as Telemachus now. People are complaining that the accent work is not heavy and the dialogue is modern, but I'm cool with that. This doesn't need to be a BBC production of Eye Claudius. But the standout from the trailer for me is Robert Pattinson who plays the lead suitor. He's just chewing scenery as an obviously evil bastard and lead antagonist to Auditius. (00:18:35): If you're not familiar with the story, Adishus is the king of Ithaca who goes missing for 20 years and returning from war and a bunch of suitors for his wife move into his house and basically just chill and use all this shit, trying to get his wife to abandon hope and marry one of them. So while Auditius is gone, it's Pattenson Suder versus Holland's Telemachus. In other words, yes, the Batman versus Spider-Man. Yeah, this is going to fucking rock. This may end up being the best swords and sandals epic of all time, potentially best in Charlton Hested's Ben Herr or the 10 Commandments. Though it's probably still going to be the second best movie ever made about the Odyssey. Hello, Old Brother we're art though. And after that 20 year journey through this monologue, it's finally time for our interview with Jamie Zug of Dispatch Taylor. (00:19:24): And to get to it, we don't even need to destroy a veritable army of suitors or even clog our ears with wax. Definitely don't do that last part. This is a podcast. (00:19:40): Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm going to see how many decimals I can get out to on Pie. This should be thrilling and I think I've got some scratch paper here with me. Actually, I'm just kidding. I'm terrible at math, but here's some math I can do. We have one guest today and we're going to do the interview now. That guest is Jamie Zug, the principal of the Law Office of Jamie Zug and the founder of Dispatch Taylor. Stick around to find out what that is. Jamie, welcome to the show. How you doing? Jamie Zug (00:20:15): I'm even all right. How about you? Jared Correia (00:20:17): I'm doing okay. Rerecord on Mondays and it's just like now I got a million things to do after the weekend. Jamie Zug (00:20:24): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Jared Correia (00:20:25): So thanks for coming in. You're a lawyer, still a practicing lawyer. I want to talk a little bit about that. I want to talk about this new business you got going, but start me out with why did you decide to become a lawyer? This is what I ask everybody, because it's such a thrilling profession. Jamie Zug (00:20:41): Right. Well, I got in maybe by accident. I was interested in international development in college and I had a professor who thought that I thought like a lawyer and suggested that I head into law. I don't know what he thought the path was going to be from an American legal education to international development. I'm sure there is a path there. I never figured it out. My interests changed over time, so I didn't end up taking that path, but that is how I got into law school. And then when I was in law school, I had, most significantly, I had two kids in law school and ended up being a single parent by the end of law school with one of my kids having just been diagnosed with autism. And that child is now 12 and is a non-speaker with high support needs. He's my second, the oldest is 15. (00:21:32): So my law school time, it took me seven years to graduate. I was lucky enough to be in a school that was very supportive of me as a parent and as a single parent when I first came in to talk to the dean of students about it, she said, "This is a great time to have a kid. You'll never be this flexible." And I so appreciated that response. It really put me at ease. That's Jared Correia (00:21:54): Awesome. Jamie Zug (00:21:55): And it was a model for me, to be honest, moving forward in my life for the kind of way that I want everyone to feel when they are having big family changes, no matter where they are in their life and in their career. I love that. So that's how I got them to law school. Jared Correia (00:22:08): Now I feel like an asshole because basically all I did in law school was to ring my face off. So what law school was it? Can we shout them out? Jamie Zug (00:22:16): I went to Temple. I loved it for exactly that, for the flexibility. I think it was the right choice. Temple's an interesting school in that it long had a night school. So actually my grandfather wasn't a practicing lawyer, but he did happen to go to the night school at Temple. So weirdly, I ended up being a legacy, even though he wasn't a lawyer. Oh, that's cool. But I went there because I had some really interesting options and I chose Temple because at the time I did want to go in this more public interest type direction. And I liked the fact that Temple is located in a neighborhood that has a lot of challenges. And I thought that being in a location where the population needs a lot of support would orient their public interest offerings accordingly. So that's why I ended up choosing Temple. Jared Correia (00:23:08): That makes sense. Shout out to the Owls. Well done. I can't believe that you were managing kids and lost ... I know the Dean was like, "You'll never be this flexible." But I remember at law school being like a pretty big lift. There's a lot of work to do. I couldn't imagine Jamie Zug (00:23:22): Having kids Jared Correia (00:23:23): And being in law Jamie Zug (00:23:23): School. Yeah. I think that the only reason that it worked out as well as it did is because Temple was so accommodating. And it's interesting, I was choosing between ... So the front runners for me were Temple and Penn. I got a scholarship to Temple, which is why Temple went out. But I also was aware that Temple allowed you to go part-time and that Penn didn't. So I honestly don't know what would've happened to me if I'd gone to Penn because they wouldn't have been accommodating for me and it wouldn't ... I mean, they wouldn't have given me money either, so I would've left a lot of debt as well. So I think it would've been a negative in multiple columns. Not to say that there aren't a lot of positive things about going to school like that. I think that the opportunity to go with ... I think a lot of times your education is really shaped by your peers, and I would've loved to go to Penn and to learn from everybody there, I think really would've been a thrill. (00:24:16): But I'm so glad that I went to Temple and I don't think that ... It set me off on the path that I'm on now and the faculty and staff were so incredibly supportive, so I really appreciate the experience. Jared Correia (00:24:29): Hey, maybe we'll make the alumni newsletter. This is great. So in addition to going to law school at Temple, you also got an LLM in taxation. So I have people ask me about that all the time, like, should I do that? So it sounds like it was worth it for you. Jamie Zug (00:24:45): Well, I have a mixed response to that. So first of all, I did not get an LLM in taxation. I am getting an LLM taxation. Oh, are you? It's an interesting story because ... Yes, I am. So I actually started ... My first LLM classes were actually when I was at Temple, and it's actually how I got into tax. So I was a JD student, obviously, but I had these two little kids and I was a single parent. And for me, the LLM schedule was better for me than the JD schedule because they were working attorneys. Oh, Jared Correia (00:25:17): Interesting. Jamie Zug (00:25:18): Which I guess would've been true for the night students at Temple as well, but somehow the LLM schedule just worked out better. So I went to these classes that met one night a week, these LLM classes, and it's how I fell in love with tax. I didn't actually ... I loved my tax professor at Temple, but I didn't like the subject. I think the intro course to tax just didn't really grab me. In fact, nothing really grabbed me in terms of the substantive legal work in law school until I took LLM classes in ERISA of all things, which has nothing to do with anything that I do, but I love- The first time Jared Correia (00:25:56): I've ever heard terminology like this. Jamie Zug (00:25:58): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:25:58): I fell in love with tax. Jamie Zug (00:25:59): I did. Jared Correia (00:26:00): I really enjoy ERISA. Jamie Zug (00:26:01): I did that. It's because tax is very statutory analysis heavy. So that's what really grabbed me about ERISA was the focus on ... It was all words and just really diving into the minutia of what words mean and how to interpret them. And that just lit me up in a way that nothing else had up until that point. And to this day, that's what I really appreciate about tax. I ended up in state and local tax, which also has a constitutional layer. So you have statutory interpretation. It's not like federal because there's a lot more ambiguity. So there's a lot of opportunity for creative lawyering. And then on top of that, you have this constitutional layer with the dormant commerce clause, primarily, sometimes other constitutional provisions as well. So I haven't found any other practice area that's like it, and I fell into it essentially accidentally. (00:26:58): But in terms of the LOM taxation, I think it's a very good idea for anyone that wants to practice tax in general. For state and local tax practitioners, it's not that helpful. It just so happens that at NYU, they have one state and local tax offering a semester, and those are outstanding. They're very good. I didn't actually take it for credit. I audited the classes because ... And honestly, I didn't take it very ... I was not ... Because it's my field, I wasn't that excited about auditing them even. And that was a mistake because as soon as I got in them, I was hooked. I think that the state and local tax offerings at NYU are just outstanding. I mean, the whole program's outstanding. It's just that they only have those two classes in my field. So it's worked. I'm glad I'm doing it. (00:27:54): It's been worthwhile for a number of reasons, but if a state local tax attorney was coming to me today and said, Hey, should I get an LLM? I'd have a lot of pluses and minuses to share. It's much more relevant for federal practitioners, which is most tax practitioners anyway. Jared Correia (00:28:09): Yeah. All right. So if you're getting that LLM or thinking about it, Jamie's the person you should talk to. I've never heard anyone speak so passionately about tax before. Kudos to you. I want to talk a little bit about the practice in a second, but before we get there, I know you've also done some advocacy in that transgender community as well. You want to talk a little bit about that and why you think that's important? Jamie Zug (00:28:34): So it's hard to talk about because it's been so such a rough road. I worked for the state of New Jersey representing the New Jersey Division of Taxation until 2021. My leaving the state happens to coincide with this big uptick in anti-transgender legislation at the state level throughout the country. And suddenly I was able to participate because previously when I was working for the government, I wasn't able to be involved in advocacy. I was very lucky to know some outstanding advocates in New Jersey that have really dedicated their lives to this work and was very heavily involved in collaborating with them and also with advocates nationwide who, again, have devoted their lives to this type of advocacy. But I stepped back from it really intentionally in 2025 because the shift went from the state level, which was the area where I really felt that I could be most impactful to the national level. (00:29:46): And at the national level, there are a lot more resources to be able to speak to what's going on, to develop strategy. So all of the strategic considerations around the advocacy became much more centralized at a time when I was failing Especially overwhelmed. So it made a lot of sense for me to step back in a dramatic way. But what emotionally taxing work? I mean, it's just- I can't imagine. Yeah. It's a lot right now. And (00:30:12): I don't know, the transgender community is suffering enormously. I mean, it was a lot. It was a lot to be involved in. And I'm still involved very peripherally, but did take a step back because of the shift in focus. And it's just hard. It's just hard. It's Jared Correia (00:30:34): So hard. I don't like to mix words on the show. It's pretty shitty how things are going down right now in the Jamie Zug (00:30:39): Country. And this is a- (00:30:42): Yeah. I guess for me, part of my shift was shifting in the way that I'm trying to do good in the world because one thing that's really frustrating about advocacy is how perennial it is. And this phenomenon that we sometimes see in law of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You can make inroads on an issue and then it just flips on you in the next cycle. Political fundraising. There are so many different advocacy areas where it's like who can fundraise the most or you're flipping something that can then be flipped right back. So at this point in my life, I'm trying to look for ways to do good that are going to last more and that don't end up with these kinds of perennial cyclical fights. I get it. Jared Correia (00:31:32): Yeah. Things are coasting along and then white nationalists take over America. Good times. Jamie Zug (00:31:37): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:31:38): Let me ask you this. I think it's a good cause to support, especially as a lawyer who can actually do some things and have some effect. So if somebody is out there looking to volunteer or to help as somebody who's done it before, what would you recommend? Jamie Zug (00:31:54): Start with the local people in your area who are working directly with the transgender community in your area. Don't start at the top, start at the bottom and then work your way up from there because that local perspective is going to inform where people are actually getting support. Who is it in your community that's really supporting transgender people at the ground level? And that's going to look completely different wherever you are. So it's going to be a matter of careful inquiry. And as you're making that inquiry, expect suspicion because the reality is there are a lot of people trying to get into communities for the wrong reason, essentially trying to catch people in something that they feel like they can create trouble for them around. So it's a really- For sure. Yeah. It's a really tricky area and trust. There are a lot of reasons for people to be very distrustful, but it takes careful inquiry and keep it local. (00:33:03): And that I think is going to be the way to find the best avenues toward providing direct support. Jared Correia (00:33:09): Okay. Awesome. Moving on from the current fascist state of the country. Let's talk about your career. So you get out of law school, you work for the state government for a little bit, and then you start your own law firm. Jamie Zug (00:33:24): Yes. Jared Correia (00:33:25): What was that like and why did you decide to do that? Jamie Zug (00:33:29): One step in between was I worked at McCarter in English in their tax controversy group. So honestly, I just felt- Do you feel like it was Jared Correia (00:33:38): Important to get a grounding like that before you did a firm? Was Jamie Zug (00:33:42): That Jared Correia (00:33:42): Intentional? Jamie Zug (00:33:43): It was not intentional. Nothing I did was intentional. Jared Correia (00:33:46): It was not. Okay. Jamie Zug (00:33:48): But I'm really glad it played out the way that it did. I didn't leave the- It Jared Correia (00:33:52): Worked out Jamie Zug (00:33:52): Great. I did not have a plan at any point. So I left the state because they were not able to accommodate my ability to continue working from home, which ended up being critical for my son. My son, who's a non-speaker with high support needs. He actually benefited during the pandemic from being home and from having us at home. And so what I saw how important that was for him, I did not want to go back to work in person. So I left the state without a plan when they said that we had to go back to work. And it wasn't even ... Well, no, I think it was full-time at the time. So I left without a plan. I was very lucky in that McCarter had been paying attention to some of the cases I was working on. And so they reached out to see if I wanted to join their team and I did. (00:34:40): It was fantastic. I don't think that moving directly from the state to solo practice would've served me well because I'd never represented taxpayers before. And I really lacked a lot of perspective. So I think that would've been a mistake. Also, I was not as much ... I was barely engaged in any administrative work for the state. It was all litigation in New Jersey's tax court, which is my favorite forum to this day. But in reality, most tax matters get resolved at the administrative level. So I was seeing- Jared Correia (00:35:19): Oh, interesting. Jamie Zug (00:35:20): ... just a fraction of the controversy in New Jersey. So I really needed that broader perspective that came from working with a firm that was representing taxpayers in a wide range of situations. I also got to do federal work for the first time. I tried to do as little as possible because I like the state work so much, but that at least I have that experience. And frankly, just the pleasure of being able to work with people that to this day, I consider to be some of the greatest mentors in my life professionally. I got to meet at McCarter. So I'm so appreciative of that time. (00:36:00): But I left state because of a change in where I could work. And I left McCarter because of ... There was a specific pro bono opportunity that I felt really passionate about. And unfortunately, McCarter, not for any ideological reasons, but for ... Anyway, it doesn't matter why, but they weren't able to allow me to do this thing that I felt at the time was really necessary. So I kind of left with- I get it. ... on principle, but in a very friendly way. It was a very amicable departure, which is great because I have great relationships there and I still work with them. Jared Correia (00:36:35): And then once you leave, I suspect it's probably pretty easy for you to figure out what your practice niche is going to be based on what you told me about your interest in tax. That didn't seem like it would be a hard decision for you. Jamie Zug (00:36:48): Well, to be honest, I wasn't sure what tax matters I could attract as a solo. I didn't understand that. And for a while, and my interests are broader than tax. When I was at the state, I did a lot of ... Because state tax has constitutional elements to it, I ended up doing a lot of constitutional litigation for the state that had nothing to do with tax. I just got into it through the tax work, and then they kept giving me these constitutional matters, which was with ... It was all done through teams. It wasn't like I was handling those matters. They were really outstanding litigators that I had the opportunity to work with, but it was varied. And so I thought in leaving, I thought, wow, I wish I could get that same kind of ... In leaving McCarter, I thought I wish I could get back to that same kind of varied constitutional ... Which it's impossible as a solo to be able to make that happen, but I wasn't sure- So you Jared Correia (00:37:45): Eventually worked it out. Jamie Zug (00:37:46): I did. I worked it out. Yeah. I figured it out. Jared Correia (00:37:49): What was the trick to that? What'd you find you needed to do to get the kind of work to supplement the solo practice? Jamie Zug (00:37:55): I needed to find the right network because my network was previously very ... I had a lot of LGBTQ rights folks in my network. I had a lot of family law attorneys in my network, but those aren't the kinds of attorneys that people come to when they have a tax notice. The people that businesses will come to and individuals would come to with a tax notice are accountants and business attorneys. The kinds of taxpayers that want to work with the solo tend to be unincorporated businesses or business owners. So it's not ... Big corporations are going to go to somebody like McCarter or another large firm. Individuals, a lot of individuals, the dollar amount at issue tends to be very impactful for them, but it tends to be insufficient to justify paying for the help, unfortunately. So there's this sweet spot where you have unincorporated businesses and business owners that it doesn't really make sense for them to work with a McCarter, but it does make sense for them to work with an attorney, and they are going to accountants and other business attorneys. (00:39:10): So I had to find the right network, and I finally found the right blend. The people who were people were coming to with the kind of matters that I have. And I'm right at the end of the referral level. Jared Correia (00:39:20): Okay. Let's talk a little bit about dispatch Taylor, Jamie Zug (00:39:24): Which Jared Correia (00:39:24): Is relatively new, I think, right? We're talking developed less than a year ago. So just tell me how that works, what that's all about. Jamie Zug (00:39:31): So Dispatch Taylor provides operational support to small businesses, including attorneys and including solo attorneys. We focus on supporting neurodiverse professionals because we find that typical administrative support doesn't go far enough to be able to provide neurodiverse professionals with the executive functioning support that they need. So we don't only work with neurodiverse professionals, but that's what we focus on. And there are a lot of neurodiverse attorneys. There are a lot of neurodiverse entrepreneurs, a lot of neurodiverse solos. Jared Correia (00:40:06): Yes. Is part of this, given your experience with your son, you want to focus on this? Is that a little Jamie Zug (00:40:12): Bit of the Jared Correia (00:40:12): Inspiration? Jamie Zug (00:40:14): It's a combination of things. It's him, but it's also me because I'm also a neurodiverse person. So I would say that my experience with my son has been more impactful in terms of the way that I hire people, because I want to give everybody that experience that my dean gave me and say," You have all the flexibility in the world. "I don't ask people to prioritize working for me over their families. And for that reason, I tend to attract a lot of very talented caregivers. So people who have exceptional talent, exceptional business experience, they're the cream of the crop. I mean, you really couldn't ask for more talented people when it comes to operational support for business, but there just aren't opportunities out there that are flexible enough for caregivers and people tend to be asked to subjugate their family life to their job. That's this sort of dystopian norm that we've come to accept in the United States. (00:41:13): So when I start from- That's Jared Correia (00:41:14): America. Jamie Zug (00:41:15): Yeah. When I start from that's not the expectation here, we're never going to say," Sorry, you got to do this. "We're coming in with the expectation that work for many people is intermittent, that a lot of people will need to have part-time work sometime or maybe for an extended period of time. And because of that, we're able to hire people of a very high caliber. So then we're connecting these executive functioning superstars, these people who may have had multiple businesses themselves, we're pairing them with attorneys who have these executive functioning challenges. And I'm the model client really, because I'm an attorney who has a lot of executive functional challenges. You may have Jared Correia (00:41:59): Tested on yourself. Jamie Zug (00:41:59): Oh, no, I am the client that keeps my team the busiest of all. That is me. Jared Correia (00:42:09): You're not only the owner, also a client. Jamie Zug (00:42:12): Very much so. Not Jared Correia (00:42:13): Bad. Jamie Zug (00:42:13): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:42:14): So it sounds like you've had real ease of finding excellent people given your model. That's great. So you've now started at this point, you've started a law firm, you've started this separate business as well. Do you have any good tips for managing a team at this point now that you're doing it? Jamie Zug (00:42:34): Don't make people prioritize their job over their family. Give people what they deserve. Let people know that you want to hear their thoughts and that you value their opinions. If you're just hiring somebody to plug in like a cog, you're not going to get someone's highest and best use. You're cutting yourself off by not giving someone the freedom to be able to show you what they can do. So if you create the conditions right, you've created the conditions for somebody to thrive and for somebody to feel supported and like you have their back, and then you let them show you what they can do, that's when things are going to start happening and that's when they can blow your mind really. That's awesome. So that's what it's all about. Or have us help you because we love ... Something that we are thinking about a lot is how to help attorneys build their pipeline, especially small firms, because it's not easy. (00:43:41): We've started trying to work ... We're trying to launch a program for the summer to have law students work with solos and create sort of a rotation where solos can essentially compete for the law students' time. Oh, I Jared Correia (00:43:57): Like this. Jamie Zug (00:43:58): It's hungry games. Right. Solos who are potentially interested in hiring those law students at the end of the day. So bring in law students and then see where their interests lie and see who can grab their interest and who can potentially grab them after law school. Jared Correia (00:44:14): Okay. I have to ask everybody about this at this point in time. Are you implementing AI at all in the business and how so? Jamie Zug (00:44:24): Yes. So we've actually just started collaborating with a firm that creates a ... It's like a layer that goes on top of AI. The inputs get tokenized on the way into the LLM so that all PII is removed. And so it's a tokenized input that goes into the LLMs. The LLM, they have different AIs that you can interact with. This is in chat. So they have a few different options that are anthropic options and a few different options that are OpenAI options. And then when the response comes back, it's rehydrated with the information. So it feels just like interacting with Claude or just like interacting with ChatGPT, except that the information's tokenized and rehydrated on the way back out. That's something that we're working on. We're in discussion with them around having a white labeling agreement with them because we want to facilitate our client's access to that tool. (00:45:32): It's still very early and they only have a few early clients. But that's one way that we're using AI is we're using this tokenized version of chat. But beyond that, we're big users of Claude and Happen from the very beginning. I find that different tools tend to be ... I mean, it's always been the case that different tools are good for different things, and it evolves over time, what's the best tool for a particular project, but from the very beginning, we've encouraged everyone to use AI thoughtfully, but really encouraging robust use of AI. And for our clients in Dispatch , the goal is to remove the burden of figuring out from our clients, because there's a lot to navigate right now. So the idea is we'll figure it out for you. We're a human solution for a reason. There's a human being that an attorney can interact with who has a team of humans who are adaptable and who have a wide range of experience behind them and AI. (00:46:49): So you're kind of getting the benefit of all of that. You're getting the benefit of a robust team, you're getting the benefit of AI, but without the burden of having to figure it out. Jared Correia (00:46:59): Jamie, very impressive. You've done a lot of stuff, for sure. Will you come back for another segment? Don't leave us quite yet. Jamie Zug (00:47:09): Yes. Jared Correia (00:47:09): Okay. We'll be right back with Jamie. Stay tuned. Welcome back, everybody. It's The Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Jamie, welcome back. Jamie Zug (00:47:35): Thank you. Jared Correia (00:47:36): So I'm bringing back one of my favorite segments for you. In it, we explore the regional dialect or the unique aspects of a particular area. This time, I'm calling it shit New Jerseyans say. You're a New Jersey guy, so I'm hoping that you can clue me in on whether stuff I found about New Jersey online is actually true. So the way it's going to work is I'm going to read you a phrase or a word, give you a description, and then you can let me know if I'm on the right track. Jamie Zug (00:48:09): Sounds good. Jared Correia (00:48:10): Are you ready? Jamie Zug (00:48:11): Yes. I will qualify my responses by saying that I'm not from New Jersey, but I have spent my entire year- Oh, that's right. You told me that before. But I have to say, I'm a big observer. I consider myself to be a seasoned observer of New Jersey. So I think that I'm still happy to participate and I'm excited. Jared Correia (00:48:31): You qualify. Jamie Zug (00:48:32): Thank you. Jared Correia (00:48:33): You've been constant in the culture long enough. Jamie Zug (00:48:35): Yes. Jared Correia (00:48:36): All right. Here we go. Number one. Full service is the only service. New Jersey is the only state that legally requires only full serve gas stations, which always fucks me up because I go out to pump gas because full service costs more in Massachusetts. So Jamie, is this true and why? What is this all about? Jamie Zug (00:48:58): This is probably the most important thing about New Jersey. It is the thing that will never change. It's completely politically impossible to change because we are so committed to this. Everybody who lives here, we are absolutely 100% behind this. It does not matter what the trade off is. Really? It is non-negotiable. And it's not like people haven't tried to take it away, but it simply cannot be done. It will not be done. It is politically impossible to do. And I'm so glad for that because as someone who lives here, I will never ... I do not get gas in other states. When I drive to other states, I wait until I get back to New Jersey. It's a real feature. I mean, it's one of the best things about New Jersey. If Jared Correia (00:49:49): You've never driven through New Jersey, if you get out any ... There's a gas station attendant every ... You cannot pump your own gas. You can't pump your own gas. I'm interested. Why do people love it so much? I like pumping my own Jamie Zug (00:49:59): Gas. I am kidding. You sit there. You just sit back, you relax. It can be cold. It's a temperate climate. That's so funny. It's like a luxury experience that you get. It's like an everyday luxury in New Jersey that you get to have other people Jared Correia (00:50:16): Talking about. I know that New Jerseyans ... I didn't know that people were so into it. That's Jamie Zug (00:50:20): Cool. So into it. People are so into Jared Correia (00:50:21): It. I learned something already. Jamie Zug (00:50:22): It is a detriment for people that grow up here and then they go to other states and they don't know how to pump gas. I'd say that's the only drawback. Jared Correia (00:50:30): All right. You can pick it up though. It's not that hard. All right. Let me hit you with another one. The jug handle. For those who don't know, this is a mechanism for turning on busy roads where you exit to the right, swing around, and then you wait for the light to change so you can take a left onto the other side of the road. It's shaped like a jug handle, which is why it's called that. So Jamie, your thoughts on jug handle turns. Do you feel as strongly about them as you do about not pumping your own gas? Jamie Zug (00:50:57): I think there's a real learning curve there for those of us who move into the state from other places. It is not intuitive. I do end up in the wrong ... If I'm in the right lane, I often get confused and end up in a lane that's turning into a jug handle without realizing it. Jared Correia (00:51:14): You're turning into the ... Yeah. Jamie Zug (00:51:16): Yeah. So it's a real learning curve. Watch out for it. It's not intuitive. It takes a lot of ... It takes some time to get used to. Jared Correia (00:51:27): Jug handle turns are obviously interspersed in different parts of the country, but I don't know if there are as many jug handle turns anywhere than there Jamie Zug (00:51:35): Are in your person. They're all over the place. What happened? Who was that? I'd love to think about that a little bit further. Why? Why did that happen? I don't know. Jared Correia (00:51:42): Unfortunately, I did not do any historical research on it, but we'll get our correct research team of me on that. Right. All right. Let's do another one. Pork roll or ham. Are you aware of this? Jamie Zug (00:52:00): Vaguely. So I'm going to step aside from this. I became a vegan not too long ago, so I'm not even really a participant, nor was I a big fan to Jared Correia (00:52:12): Begin Jamie Zug (00:52:12): With. Have Jared Correia (00:52:13): You watched others consume? Jamie Zug (00:52:15): Yeah. I don't know. Is this a Jared Correia (00:52:17): Common thing? Jamie Zug (00:52:19): I don't know. I'm really not sure. So I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs, but on the Pennsylvania side. And my wife is also from the Philadelphia suburbs, but from the New Jersey side. So I would say when it comes to local meats, we both have stronger feelings about the cheese steak sort of thing.That's more where our feelings are. My dad loved scrapple and my wife loves scrapple. So it's all the Philadelphia area type meat things that tend to be most impactful in my family. Well, Jared Correia (00:52:56): That's good to know. Okay. So for those who are unaware, the pork roll or taylor ham is a tubed meat stuff that apparently tastes like a combination of bologna and spam, but essentially pork shoulder. It's called taylor ham in northern New Jersey, and it's called pork roll in Southern New Jersey. And in Philadelphia, it is apparently not translated. All right, Jamie, I got another one for you. Non-food related. This is the debate between coffees at Wawa and QuickChek. I don't know if you want to weigh in on this, but from my understanding, due to my online research, Wawa is like a convenience store in New Jersey. Apparently Quick Check is as well. I've never heard of it, but there seems to be a divide. Northern New Jerseyans like the coffee at Wawa and Southern New Jerseyans prefer quick check. Is this true or is it solely made up? Jamie Zug (00:53:55): I am a bit of a coffee snob. People feel very strongly about Wawa coffee. Again, being from the Pennsylvania, Philadelphia suburbs, we grew up with Wawa. People love Wawa. It's not just the coffee- Do you even Jared Correia (00:54:09): The coffee? Is that good? Jamie Zug (00:54:11): I mean, people think it is ... Look, I don't like it myself. Apologies to Jared Correia (00:54:19): Wawa.You're Starbucks? Beyond Starbucks? Jamie Zug (00:54:22): Not Starbucks, no. Starbucks is like ... So coffee, my favorite description of coffee ever is that coffee is a fruit. And if you burn it, you're just- Never heard that. You're just tasting burnt. You know what I mean? You're just drinking carbon. So you got to sort of love the food. Wow. I'm a really big fan of cold brew. I'm a really big fan of nitro cold brew. I think that cold, preparing it cold, it's just a way, not exposing it to heat at all. I mean, beyond the roasting, obviously, but a light roast. A light roast with a cold brew is the best way to be kind to that fruit and really just get all the flavor out if you can. So Wawa's on a totally different page from all this. Interesting. I have no judgment, by the way. And also- Jared Correia (00:55:11): Drink your Wawa coffee, everybody. Jamie Zug (00:55:14): And also- It's okay. Wawa, the thing that people really love in addition to the coffee is the sandwiches. So in regionally, we call them hoagies, and Wawa hoagies are something that people really care about quite a bit. Jared Correia (00:55:28): Wow. I never heard the coffee as a fruit thing before. That's really interesting. All right. You are a coffee snob. Okay. I got another one for you. Benny, have you heard of this? It's a slang apparently used by Jersey Shore locals to describe tourists from certain regions of New York and New Jersey, specifically Bayonne, New Jersey, Elizabeth, New Jersey, Newark, New Jersey, and New York. Get it, Benny. Are you a Benny, Jamie? Jamie Zug (00:55:59): I'm not. And I wasn't familiar with the term, so thank you for educating me. I don't know. I mean, first of all, I'm in Central Jersey, which does exist. It's controversial. I thought it was just Northern Jared Correia (00:56:12): And Southern New Jersey. Jamie Zug (00:56:12): See, that's what everybody thinks, including people in New Jersey. It's only the people in Central Jersey are aware of the existence of Central Jersey. Other people think that doesn't exist. This is Jared Correia (00:56:25): Great. What a tremendous conspiracy theory. Jamie Zug (00:56:27): Yeah. But here we are. We're in Central Jersey and it does exist. And it's different. It's different. The character is a very different place. So I feel very strongly about that, but I'm definitely not a Benny. I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs. I'm now in Central Jersey, which does exist. That is who I am. Jared Correia (00:56:46): That's amazing. Okay. I got one more for you. Actually, I got three more. Which one should I pick? Okay. So I'm going to do the Jersey Devil. I'm Jamie Zug (00:56:57): Sure Jared Correia (00:56:57): Is a New Jersey in you're aware of the New Jersey. You want to tell people what it is? Jamie Zug (00:57:02): So the New Jersey Devil is a mythological creature that lives in the Pine Barrens in New Jersey. And the Pine Barrens have a very unique ecology. It has a massive footprint in New Jersey. And it also has its own sort of culture, which is derived- If I may, in a way that's un- I Jared Correia (00:57:23): Found this out. Jamie Zug (00:57:24): Fair, but- Jared Correia (00:57:25): I just want to let people know what you said the size of the Pine Barrens, it takes up seven counties, apparently, and it's more than one million acres. I had no idea it was that big. So when you say it's a big part of the state, that is absolutely true. But go ahead. I just wanted to fill people in on the size. There are Jamie Zug (00:57:45): Biologists that devote their careers to studying trees in the Pine Barrens. And by the way, I'm a genuine fan of New Jersey. It's the most contradictory state. It's a state of extremes, but we're the most densely populated state, but then we also have things like the Pine Barrens. And then there's the Delaware Water Gap. There's all up and down the Delaware River, you have these charming little historic river towns. New Jersey has so much to offer in terms of natural beauty. And the Pine Barrens is one of those things, but the New Jersey Devil is the mythological creature that lives in the Pine Barrens. That's what it is. Jared Correia (00:58:35): Dating back to the 1700s too, at least sightings and exposure to it. Okay. Have you ever seen the New Jersey Devil yourself Jamie Zug (00:58:45): Or New Jersey Jared Correia (00:58:45): Devil? Jamie Zug (00:58:45): I haven't. I briefly thought about creating a newsletter that was framed as a newsletter from the New Jersey Devil. So I even went as far as having AI render an image of the New Jersey Devil writing something. It was kind of adorable. I wish I'd moved forward with it, and maybe I still will. Jared Correia (00:59:06): I'm hoping that launches at some point. That sounds great. Let me know. I'll be the first subscriber. Jamie Zug (00:59:11): Sounds Jared Correia (00:59:12): Good. Jamie, thank you. Very educational. I learned a lot about New Jersey today. Thanks so much for coming on the show. We'll have to have you back sometime. Thanks for our guest today. That's Jamie Zug. To learn more about Jamie and his law firm, visit jamiezug.com. That's J-A-M-I-E Z-U-G.com, jamiezug.com, who was probably always last in line in elementary school. To learn more about DispatchTaylor, visit dispatchtaylor.com. That's D-I-S-P-A-T-C-H-T-A-I-L-O-R.com, dispatchtaylor.com. Now, because I'll always be a 90s kid who never missed an episode of Beakman's World, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing in the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record, where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist were more than tangentially related, we shall travel just like Odishas himself with voyages, a playlist. (01:00:16): So we've got songs all about voyages, physical and metaphysical like. It's all brought to you by the Chaco Taco. It's a chocolate bar shaped like a taco that Odysseus and his men actually ate during the Odyssey. I'm being told that Chaco Taco is out of business, just a tremendous loss for the ancient and modern world. Well, I guess we're back to regular old meat tacos. Join us next time when I return from the sea and shoot an arrow through a series of axheads. Watch out for it.