Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / You Can’t Out-Tough Addiction | Eric Metcalf’s Journey Through Recovery – Part 2 | Episode 34

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You Can’t Out-Tough Addiction | Eric Metcalf’s Journey Through Recovery – Part 2 | Episode 34 · 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before.

• Kelsey Dunbar: That was amazing, Eric. such great information there. So I want to kind of turn a corner, so to speak. I want to talk about Jan. I I wanna kind of bring Jan into the conversation because your late wife seems to have understood something about you that maybe you didn't always recognize yourself. at one point, Marc Rogala: Yeah, project. Kelsey Dunbar: you're back in corporate sales and doing well. And eventually you take an entry-level overnight job working in a homeless shelter. Two weeks in, you've had enough. You come home and tell Jan, it's too dark. And she responds Marc Rogala: No. Kelsey Dunbar: with three words. Light it up. Instead of asking, why am I surrounded by all this darkness? Suddenly the question becomes, Marc Rogala: Yeah, honestly. Kelsey Dunbar: what can I bring into that darkness? And years later you're writing a book called Beyond the Shadows, which I love the name, especially in terms of this. What did light up come to mean to you? And do you see the connection today between those words and the message behind your book? Eric Metcalf: Wow, wow. That was the way you just worded that you just took me back in time. I can literally see Jan in the mirror. She was putting on her eyeliner and she was on her way to work and I was coming in from work because I had to worship. You can get overnight. I was at the bottom of the totem pole as shelter manager in a 300 bed men's shelter and The shelter was actually, as the word states, it was basically a shelter. The men did not have any beds. They slept on newspapers and they used their book bags for pillows. They would have to basically hide their shoes, otherwise they're going to get stolen. It was not a very, very safe environment. And I quit a job. to take that job. And so during the first two weeks, I started getting, I wouldn't call it cold feet. I had glaziers on my feet. I don't wanna do this. This here, this is no, I'm going back. and the pay I was making, I took such a drop in pay, $12 and 50 cents an hour. I'll never forget it. And I got the worst shift, third shift and... which means that I have to basically make sure the men are all bedded down, but they have no beds. They're on the floor, along the walls. And then I go and I count each person and I give them a little tag. This is your bed number, but you don't have a bed. But I gotta have an accounting. So when I get to 300 or 250 or 270 tickets, that's how many I have in the building, all along the walls, on the floor. around this old dilapidated building. I had scented candles all around my desk because of the smells. And when I would sit at my desk and look over the candle light because the lights are off and they're on the floor, you hear the snoring, you hear all the noises that men are gonna make. I was in the military, so that part, I kinda expect, right? I would literally say to myself, these are casualties of war. These are casualties of war. And I became very, very, I guess I would say low energy depressed because I felt like why would I quit my good job to come do this? Right? Now, Jan, on the other hand, was excited because she felt now it begins because we were wanting to do similar work when we got to Virginia as we had did in Chicago with MIA. Right? And during that time, I wrote a lot. I wrote different thoughts, ideas, prayers, anything that came to me because that's what was decided for me to do. There's things that I'm going to be using later, but I don't know what later is, what is that going to look like? And then I got the job with Union Mission Ministries. And so I come home that morning, I'm standing in a doorway as Jan is putting her eyeliner on, and I tell her it's too dark. I don't think I want to do this. I'm going to go back and ask for my job back. This here, I remember I said, I feel like I'm punishing myself. Why am I doing this? I'm not really having no impact at all. And she just as, mean, was, the way she did it, it hit me. It was like a heart punch because she stopped with her eyeliner. She looked at me and she said, you keep saying it's too dark, light it up. Light it up, Eric. Go in there and light it up. They don't even know what they got. Light it up. What do you mean? And I'm scratching, it's a hand scratcher, right? Well, I'm going to work every night. I'm taking my candles in. That's kind of lightening it up. But she said, you keep saying it's too dark. You keep saying there are casualties of war. Go in there and light that place up. Stop dressing like you're dressing. Because at the time I was trying to dress like my colleagues, my coworkers, they were all seminary school graduates. They were pastors of big churches. I'm not a pastor, but I was trying to kind of fit in and dress like them. So the next morning I put on a skull cap. I put on my under armor workout jersey. I broke the piggy bank that we had with coins. I put all the coins in the pillowcase and I went in there that night when I got to work at about 10 PM or so. And I said, gentlemen, we're washing clothes tonight. We're gonna get the smell better in this place. And everybody was like, we don't have money. I got the money. and I had my little Santa Claus bag of coins and we're gonna have a washing clothes party tonight. And we started washing clothes. And then I said, let's get all of the cleaning supplies out. We're gonna clean the deck. And we started mopping and they started pushing the brooms and we rearranged some things and make it a little bit more of a cleaner, safer environment, right? And I told them, hey, I got a notebook full of things that I've written. I'm gonna use these for devotional. So in the morning when I wake you up, I'm gonna turn a song on with my phone. I'm gonna come around and I turned the military song on. And everybody gonna get on their feet and we're gonna get our area squared away. And I want you to come out in the middle for a devotion. I'm gonna talk about something. And I started doing these basically teachings. And then at the end of that, we're gonna go outside and we're gonna walk around the parking lot and we're gonna do some dips. We're gonna get ourselves moving. All right, we don't have to become our environment. Let's change the environment. Let's change it for the better. It took off just from Jan saying light it up. And the higher ups got wind of what I was doing. And then they pulled me and said, we want to know if you could start a program for the young homeless men that are in the building 18 to 28 years of age. Call it David Development Program. and we're gonna get funding for you. And that is where I became a program manager. And then soon we got an additional grant and I was able to hire staff and I became a program director. And we took the show on the road to HBCUs and colleges all throughout in that Virginia Beach, Norfolk area. And we did TV interviews. I would practice with the guys. If the camera gets in your face, what are you gonna say? And we were practicing class and they would laugh and have a good time with it and did it happen. And then we got additional funding where we were able to get vehicles. We were able to have a computer lab. I mean, the program just blew up exponentially, but it really, it was triggered by her saying, light it up. That whole thing of us being a light for individuals that are oftentimes in dark places. we need to be that light. And that's what pretty much led to the success of the program. Kelsey Dunbar: That's awesome. And I I get so charged up with that story. And I I wish it almost ended there and you went on and had just this fulfilling life that just expanded from Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: that that moment and that dream and that aspiration. And unfortunately, I know that it didn't. Yeah, so then life asks you to rebuild again in a new way that you never would have chosen. So you and Jan had built this life together, you were both serving people, things were going so well, and then Jan injures her knee. And within roughly five months, your wife is gone. You've described being angry at the medical system, angry at life, and even angry at God. Eventually alcohol comes roaring back. And listening to you describe that period, I almost wonder whether saying you were drinking again understates what was really happening. So what happened to Eric after Jan died? Did you reach a point where you simply didn't care what happened to you anymore? Eric Metcalf: I I did. Because if you, you have to look at it in the context of our lifestyle, right? Me living a life of sobriety, us growing something that was huge and big. And when we first left the Chicago area, You're leaving good jobs, good paying jobs to go to Virginia. Why? And then when we got there, we found we were actually living a dream. right across from the bay. So I can literally just get up, throw on flip flops, pair of shorts, and go right to the beach. We're living our dream. And then, know, and Jan ended up working for the same organization that I was working for. She became an intake case manager for the ladies. So now I can literally see her office from my office. out the window. And she would come over and teach some of my classes with the young man and I'll go over and share with some of the women from a male perspective and she would come over and give it from a mother or female perspective. And so we would do that. And so now we're really the team where we were gonna get t-shirts and everything, right? Because we're a team here. This is really clicking. I got the retirement plan. We're gonna retire in the Outer Banks. I got it, I got my plan. I know the home I wanna build there. We're gonna build a home there, right there on the Otter Banks. I already had cased out the place and did a recon on it and stayed in the area for a little bit. She loved the area. We had our plan. And then as you said, she takes a tumble over a couple of donation bags where people would drop off bags of clothes and she trips over one of the bags and hurts her knee. And five months later, she's gone. And that I could not make sense of. No doctor could make sense of it because they never gave me a diagnosis and I needed that. And we searched for it and we did testing and we did MRIs, CAT scans, everything, you name it, we tested, but she deteriorated and eventually she passed. She transitioned on. So. To say I was angry and and I was dejected is an understatement All of the symptoms that I carry around with me on a day-to-day basis were suppressed because of my teaching The exercise during that time I was running marathons. I was running I would run all over Virginia Beach Norfolk Sometimes we would travel. I basically everywhere we go. I'm running as we were talking about before with we first thing we want to do is check out the gym. We check into a hotel. You speak my language. How's the gym? Right. That was our thing. She knows me. I'm putting the card. I'm going to check out the gym. I'll be right back. That was it. Right. So when you live that lifestyle, I was able to really some people say I was running from my demons. I say that I have found a coping strategy that allowed me to be functional. I was functional, but I was white-knuckling it a lot, a lot during those times because number one, I had no diagnosis, none. Coming from a family construct of you don't do that, you don't let people label you, you don't go and tell doctors all of our business, keep that in the house. Let's not talk about it. You know, that's whole thing secretive Suppress emotions. Nothing is valid. Just work just work. Everything is get a job and work and so by me Doing the running and exercising belong to 24-hour gyms because I didn't sleep at night So I'm always working on a gym at two and three in the morning that became our lifestyle and with Jan being gone I didn't have that battle buddy anymore the person that tapped my leg because I'm having nightmares so I know to go hit the gym. She knew it. At three in the morning, I keep a gym bag by the door so I have no time to talk myself out of it. I grab the bag and I go. There's no excuses. And I was able to do that for a long period of time, but once she was gone and I could not make sense of it, remember that acceptance that I was talking about? That's a big, big component of my recovery now is acceptance. I cannot. control outcomes. I cannot control certain outcomes. that, and that, it was a hard way for me to learn that lesson because I did everything I could to try to keep her here with us. But I ultimately had no control over it. And with her passing, I completely intentionally blew my life up. It was intentional. I'm retirement, gone. Vehicles. Gone, home, Gone, I'm not paying anything. I left money and cars on the kitchen table. I didn't even care. I did not care about money. I didn't care about achieving. had my credit score was good. I told you we're getting ready to buy property. My credit, I got good, everything is good. I'm not playing no more. I'm not conforming anymore. And that's where... you know, because now I'm no longer doing those healthy coping strategies of exercise. That's where I found myself. Not only did I order a piece of, but I sat down in the bar because it was a restaurant in our neighborhood, pizza place, sports bar. One side is pizza. One side is the bar. I never went to the bar. All the years I lived there, I just go get my piece and I leave. I don't have no reason to be in the bar. I found myself ordering a pizza and I went to the bar. And I guess maybe two to three weeks later, every barn maid knew my name. had my mug in the cooler for me. They became my support group. They became my battle buddies and totally unhealthy coping strategy, which led to me being Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: homeless, which led to me or unhoused, which led to me having to stay in the shelter where I was a director of. I had to live there. I had to move in myself. So I, I. Yes, it was a tough period. did not respond to me. My response was suboptimum, because I was talking about how Marc Rogala: That's not a power. Eric Metcalf: I like to see myself right now as at my optimum mental performance. If I was doing a metric during that time, it was suboptimum. did everything contrary to a healthy recovery lifestyle. I did not respond to her death. in any sort of healthy way, I imploded. And it was a lot of collateral damage Marc Rogala: So during that time, you know, when you were frequenting the bars and there was that chaos in your life, were people trying to reach out to you Eric Metcalf: Yes, yes sir. Yes, Marc, they were. So I mean, my battle buddy in Virginia, he's my battle buddy to this day. He was my boss then. He's a fellow veteran. And I remember when he disclosed to me about his disabilities or his challenges. And he said he was 100 % service connected. Bet I couldn't believe it because he functioned at such a high level. And he said, I'm seeing things in you. You need to get help. He intervenes so many times, calls, but Marc, I'ma tell you, I would literally take my cell phones from the calls and I would throw it against the hotel room walls so that they crack because I can't talk. And if I break my phone, now they can't reach me. So now I don't have to hear the voices and I know the disappointment behind. the voices like, come on, brother, snap out of it. And I don't have words to say, so I would break my phone. And then somebody would find me and they'll give me another phone. Because we got to know if you're alive , Eric. And I'll crack, I'll break it. One of those moments that I'm going it, I'll break it. And the Samaritan's Angels would bring another phone. I had so many people that in the hotel, clerks would pull me, they would call me, could you come down to the front desk? and take me behind a desk and start asking me questions about me, about you. This is not like you. I don't know what you're going through, sir. But is there anyone we could call? Like, what? What are you talking about? Why are you even bothering me right now? I'm going, I'm just trying to go in and drink my beer. Leave me alone. And they would intervene and try to get me to stop. Strangers, literally strangers. So, you know, I had a lot of angels that came to me, but with that hurt, I pushed everybody away. That's why I know isolation is an ingredient to a relapse. Isolation, that isolation, pushing everybody away, I got this, I'll figure it out. I mean, I'm fortunate to be alive. I put myself in a lot of dangerous situations during that time. Marc Rogala: I think it's a good one. Eric Metcalf: violent situations. But I can say that people didn't try to reach me. There are many that tried to reach me, I, for a long period of time, I rejected any help. I think I wanted to kind of just wear my pain as a security blanket, so to speak, because that's all I had, at least I thought. Marc Rogala: So here's my here's Kelsey Dunbar: Sure that. Marc Rogala: my here's my follow-up question. And to me it's a deep question. Why is it sometimes easier for the helper to give help, but it's hard for them Eric Metcalf: Woo! Marc Rogala: to receive it? Eric Metcalf: Marc, that's what my, the battle buddy I was just talking about, and I'll say his name, Will Crawley, because he is my battle buddy. We text each other, BB, how we doing today, BB? And he's my battle buddy. And you know, he said the same thing to me as he was transporting me to the airport. He's like, brother, why can't those who serve allow themselves to be served? You need help right now. Let us serve you. You've served so many, but you won't let us serve you. You won't let us support you." And I had no response for him, but he asked that same question. Now, fast forward today, I teach this and I've even told my superiors, if I ever felt that I'm starting to lose my baseline, I know me. We know ourselves better than anybody. Nobody knows us better than we know ourselves. And I have to be very honest. And that's why I do my check-ins that I put in my Google notes that if I notice, okay, headaches are starting to hit average, maybe seven to eight daily. That's an indicator. That's a flag for me. Sleep, nightmares, I'm only getting maybe two hours of sleep. Right now, my sleep is much better. I'm getting probably about four to six hours. That's good for me, right? Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: And then on the weekends, I may actually go down for six to eight hours. That's great for me. Right in comparison to where I was so I look at those metrics if I ever feel that okay I got too many check marks. I'm going in I'm taking myself to the VA and checking in I do not I'm not that whole shame thing is gone. I mean You know, I went from being a director of a shelter to I'm sleeping in a bed. I don't have room for shame anymore I don't have room for saying, I don't want them to see me that way. No, I'm going up to the front desk. Hey, I need a bed. I need to tune up. sir, have you been using? Not yet. But the indicators are there and we're going to put a barrier here before that happens. I no longer want to keep hitting that bottom. No, that's what you all are here for is to mitigate and intervene. So I need to we need to put a stake in safety harness. so that I can catch myself because I'm sliding. That's a different Eric. I never ever did I think like that before. That's what I mean about evolution, how I'm evolving the way I see things now. And I've had individuals call me to say, Eric, I haven't used yet, but I think I need to go back into treatment. Go. Your status will remain the same with me. Actually, I'm probably gonna move you up a bar because that's self-awareness. That's honesty. Marc Rogala: Yes. Eric Metcalf: That right there is everything. Why do we have to wait for all the whole complete blow up? That's because of ego. We won't say, hey, whoa, I'm sliding. I need some help. Maybe I need some reinforcement on those skills that I used to have that I'm not applying anymore. Maybe I need to, I may teach it, but maybe I need to hear it again from a seated position of an audience member. Maybe I need a slice of humble pie. I don't know. I don't care. Marc Rogala: Yes. Eric Metcalf: Right now, I'm at the point where if I see a slide in my metrics, I'm gone. And I'm Marc, I'm going in, and I will not be ashamed about it. Marc Rogala: No. Eric Metcalf: There should not be shame. Marc Rogala: Nope. Hundred percent correct. Kelsey Dunbar: Dude, I am so charged up with what you just said. That is absolutely amazing. And obviously with our our podcast, you've seen this before. We make clips afterwards. And I'm gonna make sure that that makes a clip because people need to hear that. That even the people that are doing the helping still think that it's important for them to get their own check-ins. And this is something that Marc talks about a lot. About the fact that For you know, people go in for physicals, you know, annually, when you get over 40, then you gotta start looking at your colonoscopies, things like all these Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: things that we do our for ourselves physically, but there is no standard for how often we do a mental checkup. And that's something that Eric Metcalf: Right. Kelsey Dunbar: Marc is a huge Marc Rogala: Fine. Kelsey Dunbar: advocate of. And what we started doing with Mental Health Awareness Month is having people, do a a checkup mentally. Use that opportunity to be like, Okay, this is that time of year where I do my own check-in of myself and with the people in my circle, the people that I care about. So what you just said there, I think is gold because here you are somebody who is completely qualified to help other people and yet understand the importance of getting those checkups for yourself, even though you know, a lot of people think you're up here and they're down here because of everything you've gone through and all the coping mechanisms and everything that you've got, and you're like, hey, I still check myself too. So that's awesome. I love that. Eric Metcalf: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm so glad to hear that you all are on the same page with those mental health periodic checkups. I got mine coming up on the 27th of August. I need to live what I preach and teach. I have to live it. And that means that, as I said before, I keep mentioning the word ego. I can't be led by my ego. I can't be led by a title because my titles change so much. Sometimes I'll show up somewhere and have to ask a colleague, Who am I? What am I working? What position am I today? Because I was director of peer support services. Now I'm director of, you know what? I'm Eric. I'm a human being, being human. First and foremost, I can't get that twisted because when I do and I start believing the hype and thinking that I'm all that, now I'm setting myself up for the fall. It's the whole Icarus philosophy. You know, don't fly too close to the sun because your wings are going to melt. And there you go. Well, I've had that happen. So now I really want to keep myself in balance where if I feel that, and I know me best, right? And I also need to share me with another person because I don't want to be my own best counsel. I want to throw myself at another person. So what are you seeing? Here's my statistical data. This is where I've been at and this is where I see me going. What do you think? Right? I'm going to do that. But I can't be too prideful that I can't share myself with a battle buddy and say, hey, I think I'm sliding. I think there's something going on. Because we may be able to mitigate it. It may be through medication. It may be through maybe just hearing something that you heard from a different person that actually took root. It could be a habit. It could be something that I'm doing eventually that I didn't realize. that this is counterintuitive to a good recovery lifestyle. So whatever it is, but the main thing is, is you know that old saying a closed mouth don't get fed. I have to open my mouth and say, yo, hey, I'm here. And I may have all of these titles and different things that I do, but first and foremost, I'm a human being and I'm hurting. And I may not even have words to it outside of I'm hurting. I have to be able to say that. Because once I go back to that whole thing of, you know, I used to tell people my favorite response to everybody asking me, how am I? Was this, I'm good. Marc Rogala: Yeah, exactly Eric Metcalf: I was not good. I'm Marc Rogala: Yeah. Eric Metcalf: good. Now I think before I respond, how am I really? Yeah, yeah, I'm actually, I'm good today. you know, didn't sleep too well, but we gonna make it, we're okay. I have to be honest with where I'm at. Kelsey Dunbar: I love where we're going with this conversation and that it really has turned a lot less interview and and more conversation of the things that we deal with ourselves and we see other people dealing with. Because one point I want to make is that yeah, we're talking about the alcohol and the usage and and things like that. But what Marc and I always talk about is the fact that that's the symptom. That's not the problem. The problem is beneath that. It's it's something that's not getting Marc Rogala: It's not really this. Kelsey Dunbar: fulfilled inside of us. And that's what we talk about with these mental checkups. And so for you guys, because you you do live in the addiction Marc Rogala: Yeah, so Kelsey Dunbar: world and you guys are are both recovering in the addiction world. And yet my background is more in, I mean, if you wanna call it a food addiction, because a lot of my mental health issues were based on obesity, and and obviously that's his own its own addiction. But it's also that underlying mental health condition of being depressed and allowing that to happen to myself. And where you guys have that in common, not just on the addiction side, but of the fact that you guys have those experiences. And I didn't get a chance to mention this earlier, but you have the experiences where people were there to help you. And that's why you feel compelled to help other people because someone was there for you. That's not my experience. My experience and certainly I want to help people, but for a different reason. I was alone. I dealt Eric Metcalf: Hmm. Kelsey Dunbar: with all of my stuff alone. There was no one to help me. I didn't have parents to help me. I didn't have friends that helped me. I had to dig and claw myself out. Okay? So I didn't have that. But what I do have is that sense, just like you guys, to help other people, but not because someone helped me. Marc Rogala: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: But because I didn't have someone. And I wanted to be that someone for other people that were alone like I was. But we're all serving that same purpose. And that's just trying Eric Metcalf: Wow. Kelsey Dunbar: to help other people in the ways that we know based upon what we've been through and knowing that other people will benefit from having heard our story. And I love the line that you gave right there, Eric, about an and a closed mouth doesn't get fed. We do have to talk. We do have to let people know what we're going through and what we've experienced and how we were able to keep going and and to find that motivation. So I just want to Eric Metcalf: Bye. Kelsey Dunbar: take that moment because everything that you said just allowed me to be able to feel like I I could share that to you guys and share that to everyone else. That even Marc Rogala: Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar: though where we came from was different, our purpose is the same. But I think that both of them are valuable. Marc Rogala: Absolutely. And we've talked Eric Metcalf: Indeed. Marc Rogala: about this so many times. You know, sharing how you feel or what's going on inside is a sign of strength. Although it's perceived, even though we got the end the Stigma thing going on out there, you know, it may mental it's perceived as a weakness. We all know it's a sign of strength. Eric Metcalf: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Marc Rogala: And that and that's the message that we try to portray to the audience because we want people to open up. And share their feelings on what's going on inside because that's where the healing starts, quite frankly. Eric Metcalf: Yes, I say often, Martha, you've probably heard me say it before. We only heal from what we reveal. There has to be a revealing to get that revelation of healing, but we have to reveal something of ourselves. And to do that takes phenomenal courage. It is not easy to just crack open our chest and expose our heart to the world, right? It's not easy because you're doing the opposite of what society really dictates our society anyway. Because as Marc said, society will look at that as a sign of weakness. Whereas we know, no, that's a sign of phenomenal courage. You're being vulnerable. And by you being vulnerable, there could be somebody else in the room or in the audience right now that's probably thinking like, well, they don't have any idea what I've been through. But as we expose, what Kelsey just said, I had nobody. Kelsey Dunbar: The hell we don't. Eric Metcalf: Did nobody, did nobody help me? I had to come up with this on my own. I had to become the me that I needed. Kelsey needed that person. Now he's had to become that person, right? And so the world needs to know this because we didn't get to this path with just one road. There are multiple roads to this path on how we got here. Everybody brings their lived experience to the table and that way is community. It's communal. Everyone's welcome. Everybody's really a member. You just don't know it yet, but you are because Marc Rogala: It's true. Eric Metcalf: I mean, mental health is with everybody. Everybody. It just depends on where you add on the spectrum with it. Everybody has mental health. So I, man, I applaud you, Kelsey. Thank you for sharing it. I had no idea that you gave me just a deeper understanding of you and your motivation now. And that's very important. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing that. Kelsey Dunbar: Like I said, I I share my story as often as I can because if it as Marc and I say, if somebody hearing your story helps one person with what they're going through, it's a story worth telling. And so I don't I don't have any pride, Marc Rogala: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: I don't have any ego when it comes to what I've been through. In fact, I'm I'm proud and I continue to be motivated because I know that, whatever difference I can make in my own life because my struggles have become so public. means that somebody else is gonna benefit from Marc Rogala: my god. Kelsey Dunbar: it too. And that actually helps to Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: motivate me to keep evolving as well because I'm taking as many people with me as I can. Eric Metcalf: you go. Kelsey, you got me ready to run through a wall. I love it. This is that energy Marc Rogala: That's all I said. Eric Metcalf: that I'm talking about. That's good stuff. See, see what I mean? We feed and fuel each other. That is good stuff. That's really good. Yes. Highly motivated. Kelsey Dunbar: So I I do want to kind of take us back to, you know, we were talking about that dark period, you kind of alluded to the fact that there were people that were willing to help you, but you weren't necessarily taking applications for help. Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: And So, but there's a particular story that you talk about in your book that I I definitely want to bring up. so, during your collapse, some of what you had spent years putting into other people started coming back for you. And a group of young men had previous that you had previously mentored realized that something was happening. And they arranged to meet you in a Walmart parking lot. And that these were people who once looked to you for guidance. Now they're surrounding you. Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: Telling you to lift your head, telling you you're gonna get through this, even offering to help you materially. You describe that moment beautifully. The students became the teachers. And then Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: later comes another moment. You're back around Chicago, you're staying in hotels, you're drinking, your life is still spiraling, and a man of recovery takes a day off work specifically to find you because he doesn't want to read about Eric Metcalf in the newspaper. Somehow he finds you and instead of lecturing you, he sits with you on the trunk of his car and tells you Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: his story. What was it about finally being on the receiving end of that kind of love and service that allowed people to reach you? Eric Metcalf: Wow, you know, I guess if I had to put one word to it, both of those, the different scenarios that you're describing, I would use the word selfless because the first scene with the students, these were individuals that I had worked with in the David Development Program, the 18 to 28 year old young men who were residing at the shelter. Some of them had moved on and had gotten apartments and great jobs. And I was a part of that. You I helped them along the way. But when I found myself lost, I told you, I checked out, I went underground and there were a couple of them. They just would not let me go. So they convinced me to meet. I thought it was just going to be one guy, one or two guys to meet them in the Walmart parking lot, just so they can hug me. They just said, just let us see you, Mr. Metcalfe, give you a hug. And that's it. You go about your way. And I agreed to. I looked a mess. I'm sure I was reeking of alcohol. I was up many nights using substances, illicit drugs. I wasn't sleeping. I was in and out of different hotels. I was living on a marina for a while on a boat that did not belong to me. You know, I guess if I'm going to be homeless, I'm doing it in style. So I'm on a boat in a marina. that does not belong to me that I shouldn't be on, right? So they met me and when they met me, they started, cause I was, know, first the one car pulls up, another car, then another car. And the next thing you know, I'm surrounded by all these cars with their headlights and these guys get out one by one and they all come in and they give me a pound and a hug. And I started looking down at my feet because I felt so pitiful and How did I get here? These were my students and look at me. I'm a disheveled mess. Mess, probably dry tears, know, just a mess. And they started really, really encouraging me. And they started telling me that they don't see what I'm seeing. They see somebody that when you come back from this, you're gonna be even more stronger. Suffer the tougher. They saw that. I didn't see it. but they saw it, you're suffering now, but you're gonna be even tougher, Eric. You're gonna be even more bigger than what you've ever been. And I was standing there and then they started giving me money. I was like, whoa, where are you all getting this money from? And I went back into teacher mode. What are you doing to get all this money? And they started saying that I taught them to have several streams of income. And so one is doing work on cars. He has his HVAC. license and he's working and they're telling me all these stories about how they're good then it one pulls out car keys they give me a set of keys because my vehicles were all gone he said I dared it's a hoopty it's just a rundown rust bucket but it's yours mr. Metcalf and so I'm like I can't take these things I couldn't talk because the lump in my throat was so big but that really touched me that's selfless that's a selfless act you're taking up your time to meet me in a parking lot who was, you could just really be dragging me and bashing me and putting me down and saying, he was my teacher and look at him, he's a bum now. Look at him, he crashed out because his wife died and he can't handle it. But they didn't, they showed me really, really unconditional love. And with the individual that met me at that hotel, to this day, I don't know how he found me because I would move about because I didn't want nobody to be able to find me. So I would stay at different places. all through from Chicago all the way into Wisconsin. Sometimes I'll go closer to the city. Other times I'll go closer to Wisconsin. I felt if I was a moving target, it'll be harder to hit me because I was not only was I using drugs, Marc Rogala: Okay, I think it's Eric Metcalf: I was also selling them. I went really bad, really fast, super fast. And I was, it was a large amount that I was selling. So when the individual found me at that hotel, somebody was standing off to the side waiting to buy from me. And I had to keep shushing him away as this individual was intervening and trying to tell me that he had a premonition. His premonition was if he didn't find me, he would read about me in a paper. I couldn't believe it. And then he goes on to tell me about his Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: life. we're family now. Come to find out he was cousins of my wife, my current wife. Go figure. I was like, what? She said, I asked him about you when you first Introduce yourself to me. Is this guy okay? And he said, that is a good guy. What? I was the guy that you found who was a mess. But you see what I mean about sometimes people will see beyond the illness. And I think we all should do that. See the human being beyond the illness. That's a person that's not well. That's not necessarily them. And he saw that in me. And what he did, what he was like for me in a dark place. And I remember I'm trying to tell the person, come over here because I'm trying to hold this time that he's meeting with me and we're sitting on his car as sacred and somebody is trying to shop. They're trying to buy drugs from me. And I'm telling them, no, not right now. Right. As I'm having this conversation as really, really deep and very, very impactful, I'm still doing something that is totally, totally wrong. totally wrong and totally dark and he's trying to shed light on it. And he's constantly telling me. And then I remember when I finally relented and I said, cause he wouldn't let me off the hook. He was like, and, and you know, I'll say his name, brother Raph. And he would not let me off the hook. And he's like, he said, when are you going to go? Cause I told him, okay, I'll go get some help. And he said, when? That was so good. So good. How about right now? And I remember I had to think of an excuse because I don't want to go to the hospital today. I got a pocket full of drugs here. What am I going do with it? And so I remember saying, not today, but I'll go. I'll go tomorrow. I'm not going today. And he did not let up. And he kept calling and checking in. Now he's connected to where I can't throw my phone away. I can't because I felt like this person went out of their way to find me. to find me, you know, a search for me. And with that, I had to respond. And that in turn led me to going into the hospital, which for the very first time in my life, I allowed doctors to diagnose me. I've only had Kelsey and Marc. I've only had a diagnosis since two thousand and twenty one. Five years right before I started. I've been in October. It'll be five years with Nami DuPage. I just got my diagnosis maybe six months or so before my start date. I never had a diagnosis. And that all came from that gentleman who intervened, Brother Ralph, that came to find me and said, you need to get some help. You need to. You need to go in and get some help, Eric. Otherwise, I'm going to read about you in the paper. Kelsey Dunbar: So, that man didn't reach out to you by lecturing you. He reached you by revealing his own story. And i is that when you became understanding that your own story, including the parts you might once have been ashamed of, could actually become a tool for helping somebody else survive? Eric Metcalf: I would say that and there were other times, But for some reason, maybe because what he described, I knew was what's gonna happen. I know there's only way out of this. I'm gonna die or something tragic is gonna happen where I'm gonna end up arrested. But this is not gonna end well. I knew that. And I guess by him speaking so clearly and so honestly to me about what he's seeing and what's gonna happen as far as his premonition, it hit me. It just hit me. It hit me like a heart punch to where I had to look at myself and decide, is this how I want this to end? I could easily have been another statistic, But thankfully, you know, the words that he shared, even with about his own life and his journey, it helped me and others too, because it wasn't just him, there were others too. But for whatever reason, that precise moment, it took root to where I couldn't shake it. And I knew I got to go back into the hospital because I've been in and out of treatment so many times over so many decades of time, I had no inclination to go back. I was like, no, this is how this is going to end. And this is just it. This is going to be my station in life. So I really, really, I can't take any. I can't take any credit for it. I look at it as divine intervention. It really was. It was just right time, right words, right person. And it worked. Marc Rogala: So my question for you, you know, going back my story, your story. I mean, I see it all the time. I work with therapists, I work with doctors, I work with psychiatrists. I would not be sitting here today if it wasn't for those individuals that have live life experience that showed me the way. I I I I I believe that in my core, they saved my life. So why, Eric, is peer su why does peer support reach people differently? Eric Metcalf: You know, with peer support, when I first heard the term peer, because I heard it as peer counselor, I was at Heinz VA and anyone has been a treatment, you know, to set up. You have groups on top of groups on top of groups, clinical therapy, different modalities. But there's always some clinician or somebody who's standing in front of you and they're going through explaining their neurological synapses of the brain, they're explaining your pre-fontal lobes. They're giving us a lot of the science behind what's happening with the brain with addiction, which we need. We need the education part. But for whatever reason, when I was in treatment the last time, this was the last treatment I've been in, the individual that sat in front of us started to group out with, close your eyes. I'm like, okay, what is this? close your eyes, I guess we're about to do some mindfulness or something, right? And he had us close our eyes and he started talking. And he took us into this sort of meditative, I guess I would say vibe, right? And then at the end of it, when he said, okay, open your eyes, he said this word, Hua. And when I heard Hua, all I kept thinking is the only person that's gonna say Hua is another army vet or army military personnel. Is this guy military? Because I haven't had that. And so he's going on talking. I could not get past the word who. And so at the end of it, I said, hey, excuse me, brother, are you army? And he said, who? And I said, you are? What is this? What is this job you got? What are you doing? He's like, I'm a peer specialist. What the heck is that? A peer specialist. I go around. I tell my story. You tell your story. They pay you for this. You get paid for telling your story? Are you serious? And we had this whole exchange, right? Right outside the room. And the next thing I know, this gentleman started telling me about my symptoms. He said this, you're up at 3 a.m., right? You're checking the locks, you check the windows, you do a whole perimeter of your apartment. Every morning it late in three about three o'clock two o'clock in the morning, right? He said you're pacing the floor Sometimes you're sweating hyperventilating Marc Rogala: Okay, I think Eric Metcalf: you throw cold water on your face You're trying to bring yourself down because your hair is standing up on the back of your neck. I was like, whoa. Whoa. Whoa Hey, how do you know all that and he said because I live with it, Brother that's part of PTSD You're hypervigilant. You have to sit in movie theaters in places where nobody can be behind you Your back has to be to a wall You're checking exit points. He started describing my symptoms. That was different for me. Not from a place of clinical or therapy, but from a place of, get it. I get it. I live with it too. Whoa. I never, ever forgot about the pure word after that. And then fast forward at that same VA, a director told me about Namie DuPage and a job opening, and that's where I'm working today. That's how it all came to be. It came from me hearing him say the words, Peter, to a director there, really, she didn't offer, she really was, she had to persuade me to even call Nami Dupage because I said, no, three times, because it's a nonprofit, I can't make money. I said, no, I gotta go back corporate, I gotta make some money. And it took three times before I finally relented and said, I'll call and I'm working there today. So you see the series of event? I know, I think I mentioned in the book, the butterfly effect, know, the flapping of a butterfly's wings can affect a tornado in Texas sort of thing. That whole premise, it's a series of events that happened that put me in the seat that I'm in today. Marc Rogala: Okay. Kelsey Dunbar: I'm gonna be honest. I when I put together a podcast episode like this, I put it into acts and each act has a different title and it's kind of putting us into a another part of the person's story. And and I have this next act as recovery Nami and the Life That Almost Didn't Happen. So you just gave me the the Eric Metcalf: Sir. Kelsey Dunbar: perfect segue into this section. So the the one thing I appreciate about the way that you talk about recovery is you don't sell people a fairy tale. You still personally have difficult nights, you still have nightmares, you still deal with chronic headaches, there are still plenty of things that you carry with you. The difference seems to be that you're no longer automatically running from those things and trying to carry them alone. And then while you were at the Heinz VA continuing treatment and rebuilding of your own, you know, purpose came looking for you again. And someone you just talked about handed you a flyer for a position at Nami DuPage. And that's kind of where we begin. So initially you're basically thinking, No, I've lost enough. I I need to go make some money. But before you even leave, something starts tugging at you. And today you're the director of peer workforce development. So the guy who once went through treatment program after treatment program is now helping develop the people who provide peer support to others. So what does recovery mean to you today? And how did Nami become part of this version of Eric's life? Eric Metcalf: Yes, recovery for me. I'll go back to that word selfless, because less of me, more of the work, the purpose, serving, right? Really a life of servitude is what I found to be a recipe for success. And I'm gonna take that with me everywhere. With Nami DuPage, I mean, it was the best. I was most resistant to making this decision, but it was the best decision I could have made to say, okay, I'm gonna call and we're gonna go ahead and pursue this NAMI deal. Started off as a part-timer, 25 hours a week, low pay. I was happy for it because you know why? It kept my own recovery at the forefront. It was a mirror in my face every day because how can I be working in a place called? National Alliance on Mental Illness if I'm not prioritizing mental illness. So that was very helpful to me. Having to do groups, support groups, doing groups, even though you're the bus driver and you're not giving answers per se, you're reflecting. You're hearing things that, whoa, that's my story. Whoa, listen to that. What great feedback. That was good. So all of these things are kind of sticking on me like Velcro. like patches of Velcro. And I noticed I started sharing more and more. I started going deeper and deeper with my share, right? As over time, not immediately because I'm very big on, I share what I share on a need to know basis. Not everybody needs to know. The ones that need to know like what we're doing right now, they're gonna, they need to hear this, right? But not everybody in every space that I'm in needs to know. because they're either number one, they may feel as if this doesn't apply to me or my lifestyle at all. I don't have any issues with addictive behavior. I don't have a mental health challenge. I'm not gonna really go into anything too deep with them because they're not really there. They're not trying to hear it at the time. So I share on a need to know basis. And NAMI has helped me with being more courageous, going places like now. I have no inhibitions about sharing about the substance use abuse. I have no inhibitions about sharing about my diagnosis at all. Nothing. I used to get the little thing in my throat when I would get ready to say TBI because I don't want to say that part. I'll say PTSD. I'll say depression, anxiety, but I'm not going to say TBI because then that's really bad. Right. That whole thing. Now I don't get any of that. I will say it because look, I can do certain things to function. And if I can share what I do to another person that may live with something similar, then what am I doing? I'm shedding light on a dark thing, on something that people could perceive as bad. And I'm saying, no, it doesn't have to be bad. It just means you have to move differently. You have to process differently. You have to get up and do certain things where you can't just say, blow it off, because you know that's gonna help you remain relatively well. You have to know what your baseline is. You have to know, you have to have a RAP plan, a recovery, a wellness recovery action plan. All of that now you have to implement, execute, know. Nami DuPage has educated me on a lot. A lot of different things that I kind of just like, that doesn't really apply to me. I'm gonna take that off my radar. Yes, it does. It's just, I didn't want to acknowledge it applies to me, but it does. And so that's the one good thing about working for NAMI is that it's like a big mirror in front of my face daily to prioritize my own wellbeing. Marc Rogala: Yeah. So here's a question for you. you know, you talked about you didn't want to work for a nonprofit, you want to get back in the corporate world, there's no money in there, but you took the position at Nami and you're very good at your position, and I know you got a passion because I feel that not only on this podcast, but I've known you and the first time I heard you speak, as I alluded to earlier, I could feel the passion. What does serving at NAMI give you that money couldn't? Eric Metcalf: Ooh, good question, good question. You know, I said this the other day because NotMe has put me in a position to have an audience that I would not have had. I've been able to speak at a, where we had a movie theater. They had the movie theater rented out and they had all judges and lawyers there. And I was the spokesperson for that. And that was incredible. I've been able to be keynote speaker during my cap graduation ceremonies in the Veterans Court graduation ceremonies where I have a judge giving me a shout out. Marc, you know what that must feel like when a judge Marc Rogala: Yeah. Eric Metcalf: is usually saying remanded, turn around and somebody is putting handcuffs on me. And now I got a judge giving me a shout out from the bench. Eric, hey, I'll tell you, I pinch myself. Nami DuPage has enabled me, I've done TV interviews on behalf of Nami DuPage. So it's given me a wide audience. And what I've learned through speaking with, I've spoken to med students at Loyola University. I've done that. What I've learned is that the wider my audience, the more honest I have to be because the reach is long. And now if I can, and I sprinkle my story, I don't go all in, I just sprinkle it. But if I can sprinkle a little bit about who I am and why I am, and that could help somebody else in their career path on maybe how they see the world, maybe how they see mental illness, maybe how they see a veteran, how they see an African American, a black man. If I can do anything to help illuminate that we all have layers to us. We are not sometimes what you may see. Why don't you instead, you know, of looking at the book cover or flipping it over to the back, take time to open the book and read the pages so that you can literally see there are layers to many of us. And our stories are multi-layered. They're unique to each and every, everybody has a story. Just like everybody has a fingerprint. We all have a story. And, but for most of us, there's the shame, there's the trepidation to share our story because how are we gonna be perceived? How are they gonna view us now? my goodness, they're gonna be scared of us now because you just said you have PTSD or whoa, you are a substance use abuser? Whoa, you did that? Well, you may rob me or steal from me. And I think a lot of times it makes us kind of just put a bubble around us and stay insulated where we don't share of ourselves. And so Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: for me, doing something like this, it's a privilege. It's a privilege. And the more I do it, I'm empowering myself because it's less shame. I'm basically giving stigma a mouth shot. Get out of Marc Rogala: Extra. Eric Metcalf: here. No, we're not doing that today. We're going to destigmatize this and we're going to make this be just like any other condition, be it diabetes, be it high blood pressure, what do you do? You change your diet, exercise, maybe some medication, maybe not, right? But you have to do something to mitigate those symptoms. Otherwise, those symptoms are gonna result in Marc Rogala: And that's probably not resolved. Eric Metcalf: other things going off-kilter, other health problems. I look at it the same with my mental health. I do, I have to do certain things to address it. But as long as I prioritize that and don't become neglectful like a diabetic, they can't just go and all of a sudden I'm gonna make a big old pitcher of sweet tea and you're a diabetic and you just pour it in a whole bag of sugar. What is that gonna do to your physical being? With my mental health, if I know that I'm in a toxic relationship, but I continue on when I know this is Marc Rogala: Right. Eric Metcalf: toxic. whatever this thing is that I'm doing and I don't mitigate it and do something different, Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Something is Marc Rogala: Chaos. Eric Metcalf: gonna rebuild itself. Eventually, it's just a matter of time, but eventually it's gonna manifest itself in some sort of damages. And I look at it the same way. So it's nothing for us to be ashamed about. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. Marc and I have have always said this and we've been on numerous podcasts, but one time we were on a podcast about podcasts. And so basically they talk about your inspiration for starting a podcast. And with Marc and I, I think everyone knows us well enough to know this. It's it's not about becoming famous, it's not about making money. It's it's about increasing our audience because there are just so so many people in the world that are struggling, and there's only so many people that you can touch. one on one or only so many books that you're gonna sell, but a podcast eventually could reach millions of people and and that's why we do it. So I appreciate the part of your story where you you say I just love the audience because that's that many more people that I can help make a difference in their life. And so obviously that that rings very true to us as well. but now that we're kind of on the the positive side of of your story, I I wanna talk about something else from from your book. And you you know, you talk about your life today and you're remarried and you have a family that's embraced you, you have grandchildren and you're doing work that really matters to you. And you ask this incredibly simple question. what if I didn't make it off that boat? Because obviously none of this happens. You don't meet the woman you're married to today. You don't have these relationships. You don't work at NAMI. You don't help people. You're helping. This book obviously doesn't exist. So what is it like looking at the life that you have today and realizing how close you came to never experiencing any of it? Eric Metcalf: I know the word surreal is used quite a bit, but it is surreal. It really is. It's a lot of pinch myself moments. I just said this to my wife yesterday. I looked over at it I said, babe, if certain decisions and certain things had not happened, I would never have met you. I would never have a new family because now with me meeting my current wife, Tanisha, I have... new family now because now I have grandchildren. So there are three grandchildren that I have from her side of the family. They're my grandbabies now, you know, and they call me granddad. That right there is medicine. That's medicine for my soul. The youngest little Kimi, the first time she held my, she would never let me hold my hand, right? I'm trying to cross the street, but when she took my pinky finger, that was it. I was done. I was like, my goodness, I know she couldn't tell, but I was floating that. And I said, this feels so good. I forgot what this feels like. It feels so good. I have a daughter, she calls me dad, you know, we don't even go with the stepdad, stepdaughter thing. That is just beautiful and amazing to me. And so I guess I would say that The thing about now, when I say I'm at my optimum, I feel that I'm at an ideal point based on conditions, right? Is everything perfect? No. But as long as I accept that, that it's not perfect, but it is progressing, I'm in proper alignment. And with my current wife, my late wife was the first editor of the book, right? She transitioned before we got it published and everything. my current wife is now getting it across the goal line. So she's getting it across the goal line and we celebrate that. And I tell her that Jan would be giving her the biggest hug and kiss on the cheek and say, good, you taking care of this knucklehead, keep him in line, get that book out there. Don't let him close up because they, you know, she knows that I can go mute where I'm nonverbal. It takes work for me to talk like this. Marc Rogala: Yeah. Eric Metcalf: Cause I don't be wanting to talk about myself, right? It takes Marc Rogala: Yeah. Eric Metcalf: work, but I'm healthier for it. And so she's that little push in my back saying, keep going, keep going. You're doing the right thing. So this is going to be new for us. Everything that's happening right now in my career, I'm clicking on all cylinders. We have a lot of great things that are happening with Nami DuPage. We were now going to be able to offer a 24 hour living room service. Whereas before, It was 2 to 8 p.m. Monday through Friday. Now it's going to be 24 hours, seven days Marc Rogala: That's right. Eric Metcalf: a week. That's a big deal. A huge deal. Marc Rogala: ja Eric Metcalf: We're able to actually hire on recovery support specialists as staff, whereas before they were contractors. Now they're going to be fully fledged staff members with part time hours, full time hours. That's a beautiful thing. That means that that's career development. That means that there's a place for us in the field. And so we have great partnerships with hospitals. We have a great partnership with DuPage County jail. We have a great partnership with DuPage Pass, a great partnership with Mercy House and we're out there and we're making our voices be heard, which is a beautiful thing. So it's like night and day with me making decision to come over to NAMI. I feel, and I say this oftentimes, I have some of what I want and I have everything I need. That's how I would describe it. Some of what I want and everything I need, I don't need anything. I have all my needs are met. So when I was worried about finances, I'm good. I was, and then I got a little bit of what I want too. So I'm, it's cherry. It's cool. I have no regrets about the decision. It was the best decision I could have Marc Rogala: That position. Eric Metcalf: made. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So so playing on the fact that yesterday was your birthday, I'm gonna say we're gonna Marc Rogala: I thought that's Kelsey Dunbar: keep the party going. And and I wanna talk a little bit more about the book itself. So again, the the book is called Beyond the Shadows, a Search for Me. And one thing I want our listeners to understand is that this isn't presented as a traditional autobiography. You took experiences spired inspired by real life events and created Caleb. And I'm fascinated by that decision because sometimes putting a little distance between ourselves and our story actually Eric Metcalf: Thanks. Kelsey Dunbar: allows us to tell the truth more clearly. So why did Eric need Caleb to tell the story? Eric Metcalf: Well... Kelsey Dunbar: And did writing him into the story teach you anything about yourself that you didn't fully understand before? Eric Metcalf: Yes, it did. Yes to both questions. Okay, early on, when I first started writing for Caleb, I didn't know that I was gonna create the character, all of the supporting cast. I knew I was gonna create Caleb because I knew for me, in order for me to go raw and to really go there and really, really be honest and tell it. as it happened with the sorted details and some of it, you know, we do have a, I hate to use the word trigger warning, but we do have that we're gonna put at the very beginning of the book. That was one of the reasons why we had to pause the release. Cause I have to have that there because some of the places where I go, they could be activating for some individuals, especially if you're early on in recovery. So for me, in order to write it in such a manner, I needed to create a character that I can totally, tell on it. Just tell it all without me feeling as if I need therapy after I write this chapter or this passage. I gotta go talk to a therapist now because I am so overstimulated. It was a manner that was safe for me because remember, as we share our stories, even within a book construct, I need to make sure that it's safe for me. And I don't want to harm others, but I do want to shed light on what the thought process is of an addict, the addictive nature, that thinking, how that thinking goes really, really wonky and impulsive, right? In order to fuel the craving, which in turn is, is kind of covering up a painful area that may be really, really bedded down deep in the trenches. But that's what you're doing. And so for me, writing in a manner of having a character as Caleb, it freed me up where I can tell it all. And then the thing about it, I remember my late wife saying, well, this is book one, you you got about maybe two more because you didn't tell that or you didn't tell this. like, I told enough. And you're talking about a person who early on during my active addiction, my mother, lived as a missionary of a church. She was a missionary and a state ordained missionary. So she would literally have the church pray for me. I detested that. I used to get so upset with her. Don't have those people pray for me. Don't have them even say my name. I was very, very secretive and very prideful. I didn't want people to know that I was hurting or that I was struggling. So for me to tell my story and such a honest, brutally honest way from the birth of my youngest, my son Julian, you know, which I tell in the book, to me missing my brother's funeral. I tell, I mean, I went there, but I could do that because I wrote it with the character of Caleb. And I can do it without me feeling like, okay, I got to go, I have to have 30 therapy sessions after writing that verse, that line, because it's shattered me. And so it was safer for me to do it that way. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And when Marc and I were writing our children's book, You're Not Broken, we did the same thing, not with different characters, but writing a little section in there that kind of warns the parents and educators Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: and people that are going to recommend the book that they might want to look it over and make sure that it's appropriate for the child that's going to read it. So I totally get that responsibility part where you just want to make sure that people are are safe to read your work. So I really appreciate that you you did that. Eric Metcalf: Right. Yes, because it takes you through my military training, boot camps. Some of that could Marc Rogala: Yeah, exactly. Eric Metcalf: be activating for another fellow soldier. It takes you into the streets of Chicago. Some of that could be activated. It takes you into drug sales. It takes you into having people working your door and drivers and transactions and police chases. Because there was that too. I was happy. So it takes you to a lot of places Sometimes I just I chuckle because I'm like, I can't believe I did that. boy Wow, that was that's Marc Rogala: Mm-hmm. Eric Metcalf: not cool, but it takes you into a lot of things So I think it's only fair to give some sort of disclaimer Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: to say hey This may material may be a little bit jarring. Make sure you're okay with that Marc Rogala: For sure. I Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, and then I want to talk about the title, because obviously it could have gone so many different ways. It could have been a search for sobriety or a search for recovery or a search for purpose. It's a search for me. And I I love that. and that brings us all the way back to where everything started. There's a point in the book where Caleb struggles to answer, Marc Rogala: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: who am I? At one point he essentially defines himself as an addict. Like that's his identity. But his counselor won't allow that to be the entire answer because addiction is a part of his story. It isn't the entirety of the man. So imagine putting all of those versions of Eric into the same room: the soldier, the businessman, the the addict, the husband who lost Jan, the man living on the boat, the Eric sitting outside that hotel, the Eric sitting on the trunk of that man's car. And the Eric sitting here with Marc and I here today. You're in recovery, you're remarried, you have a family, you're serving people, you're helping veterans, you're working in mental health, and now you're preparing to publish a book. And you're willing to go looking for people because someone once came looking for you. After everything you've lost, everything you've survived, everything you've rebuilt, and everything you've learned. Eric Metcalf, who are you? Eric Metcalf: would describe me as. I know I said the word earlier, but I am a living, breathing testament to the power of recovery in a manner of being a servant and also being able to be served, because I need support just as I give out support. I would say that for me, right now, being a servant and being on this side of it, is the greatest honor I could have, the greatest honor. I'm forever evolving, forever growing. There is no absolute, I don't believe in that anymore, of certain things that because like, for instance, I used to say, I can never go on a cruise ship. I can't be out in the middle of a body of water like that. I'm gonna maybe have a meltdown. They can't just pull the boat over and let me off, right? And I used to say, no, I don't do that. You know, those statements, I don't do that. And I now I've been on seven cruises, right? I could say, no, I'm not traveling overseas. That's too much stimuli for me. I'm not going to be able to be on a plane that long. I've taken a trip to Thailand, 23 days. So that's why I don't want to live in all of these constructs of putting these parameters on who I am because I'm forever evolving and growing. And so I'm discovering me every day, every day a different depth, a different layer of who I am. And I love it. It's kind of cool because it keeps things very interesting. So if I find myself like I'll say, no, I don't dance. And then all of a sudden I'm dancing with my wife in public in front of a body of people. Wait a minute. I didn't think I did that. Well, now I do because I want to challenge myself to be Marc Rogala: Actually. Eric Metcalf: evolving, learning, having unique, great experiences. And speaking of that, we're coming up on an experience where I'm going to be moving overseas. So a whole nother chapter Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: of who I am, you know, speaking a foreign language. So it's forever evolving. But I definitely no matter where I'm at and what vicinity, I'm always going to live out my purpose of being a servant, whether that's somebody seated next to me on a bus, whether that's somebody that's walking. I've had people in Las Vegas, I'll never forget it. And my wife was with me as a witness in Vegas, we were in Vegas, I had never been, we went there for my class reunion. And I'm walking in that area where they have the person is zip lining overhead and all the visual, all the electrical devices are going, the dancers and everything. There's just a lot of people, a lot of stimuli, right? And I'm walking, a guy bumps my shoulder, bumps it hard. to where I have to stop and we eyeball each other. And he leans in and he says, I tried to take my life last night. I was in a hotel room and I went to shoot myself, but I didn't. And you know what I did? I leaned in closer and I bumped his shoulder and I said, you didn't so that you can bump me today. Come back and bump me again tomorrow. And my wife was floored. What is happening right now? Marc, you know how it goes down. Marc Rogala: I know what Eric Metcalf: Kelsey, know that we look, we're morphs to a flame, gentlemen, individuals, no matter where I go, said, my purpose will find me. It's going to seek me out. And I had to sit there and have a moment with that gentleman and look in his face and see the hurt in his eyes. And for whatever reason, he gravitated to me because he, you get it, you get it. And I do, get it. And that's happened on more than one occasion. just these random acts of people out of nowhere, they will gravitate to us because why? We're trying to be a light now. We're not trying, we are. We just have to stay lit. But we are a light to those who are suffering in silence. And so now I used to shun it and try to run from it. Now I don't, I don't. And I told my wife, I ever get too busy, that I don't pause. and this whole space for that person, no matter what we're doing, I don't care if we're hiking in the mountains of Thailand. I need to pause and see the individual beyond the illness and see and let them be seen and heard, because that's what was given to me. That's who we want to be. So like I said, it's just it's all gravy. It's a dream. We live a dream just to be on this side of it. It's a privilege. Not many of us make it. to have this moment of clarity. So I just want to keep fueling that energy, keep fueling that positivity and just seeing where it takes me. Marc Rogala: Kelsey, I gotta I gotta say something real quick here, You and I have had a lot of conversations, Kelsey, and I've told you about the weird things that happened to me. You just heard his story, okay? This is not uncommon in the recovery world. People Eric Metcalf: Mm-mm. Marc Rogala: who are active and are helping others, this happens. All the time. The first thing, the first time that happened to me, and I don't think I've ever said this on this podcast, I was about six months sober. I was listening to a band. The band ended. Some young African American girl tapped me on the shoulder and said she's been paying attention to me the whole night. And for whatever reason, she kept getting drawn to me. And she said, I think I can feel it in my heart that there's something that you can help me with. And I said, Help you, help you with what can I possibly help you with? And the first question she asked me was, Are you an opiate addict in recovery? And I said, Well, yeah, I am. I said, but I'm only about six months sober. And her eyes started filling up with tears. And she started, she started sharing me that she's heavily addicted to heroin. So when you just told that story, it reminded me of that story, which I've never shared on this podcast before. But I will tell you that's Not the first time that's the first time it happened, but it's not the last time it happened because I don't think I have enough fingers on my hand to tell you how many word situations I've had like that. Eric Metcalf: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: You you don't because I've heard more than that number of stories of circumstances like that. And actually I was you did tell me that story once before, but you're right. We've never really expressed it on our podcast here. But when sometimes s someone tells us something and we go, Wow, that gave me chills or goosebumps or whatever, my whole body was shaking. It's you can't even call it goosebumps when when you were telling that story, Eric, because yeah, Marc Rogala: Amazing. Kelsey Dunbar: you just you just never know why people get placed in your path and you have to kinda look beyond the the surface stuff to really see the true meaning behind it. And that's incredible. And I love that you guys both have those similar experiences. I have experiences like that, but I'm just not out in the public as often as you guys are. So it probably happens more often to you guys. But I 100% believe in it. so this kind of get us close to our wrap up here. So I definitely wanna give some Marc Rogala: Behind it. Kelsey Dunbar: more promotion to the upcoming book. So that's gonna be coming out this next week and we're gonna be dropping this these podcast episodes as fast as I can get out so that people can hear about the book and definitely go out and get the book. So it's gonna be available on Amazon, right, Eric? Eric Metcalf: Yes, Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Kelsey Dunbar: Fantastic. So in the show notes, I'll make Marc Rogala: Thanks. Kelsey Dunbar: sure that I have links to purchase the book. But I do want to ask a question that I always ask our authors. And so anybody that Marc Rogala: Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: reads this book, what do you hope someone takes away from it after reading it? Eric Metcalf: I really hope that an individual will see that they can move beyond the shadows. They can, they can move beyond the shadows. know, Carl Jung talks about shadow work, right? I definitely make references to that in the book. But I believe that within our shadow, yes, there's the gold, you know, it's called the gold in the shadow. And for me, I'm hoping that individuals that may be in those spaces and places that they deem as super, super dark, super, super hopeless, just no hope. Nothing is gonna ever work out for me. I'm always gonna be this way. I'm never gonna be able to make that radical change. This guy's, yeah, that's great. I can listen to Mark's story, Kelsey's story, yeah, but that's not gonna work for me. I was that person. I was that person that felt none of this is going to work for me. But I can guarantee you as I'm sitting here, It can work, it can work. You have to do your part. You have to be willing. You have to yield over to sometimes that higher authority, you know, be it in a person, be it in a spiritual manner. You have to yield over to things that you may not understand. Marc Rogala: Mm-hmm. Eric Metcalf: I almost call it like you're jumping out of a plane, right? You got your parachute, you're getting ready to jump. And then the angel says, no, you won't need this and takes the parachute off your back and then pushes you out the door. But then there you go. You get caught. You get caught and you're safe and you're better for it because you took that leap of faith to say, I'm going to become Marc Rogala: Okay. Eric Metcalf: this radically different person than maybe I've ever known. And you will discover you in doing that. That's what I'm doing now. I'm discovering me every day. And so I hope that someone else decides to say, you know what? I think I want to go on a journey of discovering myself. Let's see what that's going to be like. It's a lot of fun. It's scary. But it's just so cool. This here doing a podcast. This is not me. This is not me. I would say no, no, no, no, no. I don't even like talking. If my wife wouldn't believe that, but I don't. And whenever and whenever we see somebody from my past, they'll always say he doesn't talk. And I'm standing here. I talk now. Talk to me. I do. And so it's just funny. I get such a kick out of discovering me. And I hope that if anything, when a person reads the book that they find that, wow, this person really went through a lot. He went through a lot. He has he has had to rebuild, restart entire new family, entire new careers, entire new locations. But he's doing it. If he can do it, I can. That's what I'm hoping someone glean from it. that you can always, as long as you have breath and you have a pulse, you can always change. You can always restart, reset, a transformation, always. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, there there's so much to there's so much to unpack there because that's that's Mark's big line where there's pulse, there's hope. I mean that that's Mark's line. He my god. Eric Metcalf: I didn't know that. I didn't know that, Marc Rogala: We never talked Eric Metcalf: man. Marc Rogala: about that, Kelsey. I swear to God, we never talked about that. He just admitted it. Kelsey Dunbar: I I'm I bet. I get it. Yeah, I mean, like you said, you guys are brothers in recovery and there you go. That's all we need to talk about right there. but I love the fact that what you talked about when you were talking about people reading your book is the gold. And and I think that they're gonna find gold in your book. Just like I knew Earlier on in this podcast, this was at least gonna be a two-parter because there's so much incredible information, and I don't want anybody to look at a two-plus-hour podcast and think, I'm not sure if it's worth my time. For those of you that are still listening to me right now, I hope you realize that you found gold. Because there is so much incredible information here, incredible inspiration here, that I think that this episode. Is gonna change lives. I 100% fully believe in that. but for that person that's listening who isn't where Eric is today, maybe they're just somewhere earlier in Eric's story, maybe they've relapsed again, maybe they're grieving, maybe everyone thinks they're strong while they're quietly falling apart. Maybe they're helping everybody else and terrified to admit that they're the one who needs the help, or maybe they're sitting in their own version of that hotel room and nobody's come looking for them yet. Marc Rogala: Okay. Kelsey Dunbar: What do you, want that person to hear from you today? And this will be our last question. Eric Metcalf: Yes, don't give up hope. Don't give up hope. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a surrendering that has to happen. And when I say surrendering, that means to that inner dialogue, that whole war that's going on, I call it the gap between the mind and the heart, right? That check-in space, you will have to take somebody by the hand and let them help you out of it, all right? It's that whole foxhole prayer. you know, battle buddy, you have to. Please, the more you push away, the more you isolate, right, you're lowering the probability of the miracle. The more you just go ahead and say, you know what, I'm willing to try. All right, what you got? Okay, I need to read this book. I need to do these precepts. Whatever that looks like, there's that willingness that you need to have. And so, I just don't want to see no individual give up. Don't leave before the miracle happens. That's that's said in recovery rooms all over the world. Don't leave before the miracle happens. We're living, breathing testament to the miracle of recovery. And it doesn't matter if it was an alcohol or a drug or food or or people, you know, whatever it is that you're using to placate something deeper, some sort of hurt. some sort of disillusion, some sort of void, that's what recovery is all about. So it's, you know, and I know recovery gets tagged with substances and things like that, but a substance could be anything, anything. Marc Rogala: 59. Eric Metcalf: So that's, I really don't like anyone to say that, well, that's not the group for me or that doesn't apply to me because that's that inner dialogue convincing you not to get help. That's all that is. It applies. You can just make a blank line and put whatever you want in the blank. It does not have to be alcohol nor drugs. It could be whatever it is that you've used to cope. Kelsey Dunbar: Absolutely. And it's funny that you use the word gap in your statement, because speaking of gap, Eric is actually gonna be one of our featured presenters in our Transformation Gap Summit that we have coming up next month, which is September 24th through the 29th. And we're super excited that he agreed to be one of our featured presenters. So definitely check that out too if you're listening to this podcast. So I just want to say, Eric, thank you so much. Not not simply for coming on the show, but trusting us with parts of your life Marc Rogala: Actually, Kelsey Dunbar: that Would have been much easier to hide and also trusting me with a advanced copy of his manuscript. I'm I'm one of the first people to get to read his book, and I appreciate that he trusted me with that. Cause I think there are definitely parts of this interview that wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have been clued in on some of the stories in that book. So that was so helpful, and I appreciate that you graced me with that. And you said something that I think captures why conversations like this matter. And that's the the thing again. You only heal what you reveal. And I hope that that is a Marc Rogala: excellent question. Kelsey Dunbar: huge takeaway for for people who are listening to this. You know, somebody sitting in the darkness doesn't need another lecture. They don't need somebody telling them everything they're doing is wrong. Sometimes they just need evidence that another human being has sat where they're sitting and found a way forward. And sometimes somebody needs to care enough to go looking for them. If today's conversation made you think of somebody, don't just view this as another episode. View it as an opportunity To go out and reach to them, send this episode to them. You never know when somebody else's story might be exactly what helps another person hang on long enough to begin writing the next chapter of their own. And Eric, it's been an honor. Thank you for joining Marc and I today. And everyone listening, thank you for spending this time with us. We know it's been a long one, but I hope you think that it's been worth it as much as I have. Marc Rogala: That's a high. Eric Metcalf: Thank Kelsey Dunbar: And we will see you on the next episode of Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care. Eric Metcalf: Thank you. Thank you both.