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Can psychedelic therapy heal depression and trauma? #23 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

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  Speaker 1: The world needs free therapy.
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  Speaker 2: Yo, Kev, what's up, guy?
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  Speaker 1: What's up, Benny?
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  Speaker 2: How you doing?
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to Free Therapy.
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  Speaker 2: Each week, we sit down with a different therapist to
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  Speaker 2: talk about the stuff that everyone is thinking, but nobody
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  Speaker 2: is really saying out loud.
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  Speaker 1: And this week, we're talking about a topic that's a
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  Speaker 1: little taboo, but we sat down with Dr. Nick Bruce,
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  Speaker 1: who's been a researcher and a therapist in the psychedelic
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  Speaker 1: space for the past decade plus.
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  Speaker 2: He's so, so intelligent and has been focusing on what
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  Speaker 2: the research is showing around depression and PTSD, and this
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  Speaker 2: conversation gets into what psychedelics can teach us about healing,
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  Speaker 2: the impact the recent studies have shown, and what it
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  Speaker 2: really takes to turn a powerful experience into meaningful change.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that meaningful change is so big because we all
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  Speaker 1: have transformative experiences, and this doesn't actually have to do
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  Speaker 1: with psychedelics. It has to do with how do you
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  Speaker 1: turn those big, meaningful experiences into long-term change. He talks
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  Speaker 1: a lot about how the medicine is actually not the medicine.
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  Speaker 1: you can create that kind of mindset, a psychedelic mindset,
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  Speaker 1: in your life every day.
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  Speaker 3: Through transformative experiences.
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  Speaker 1: So if you're curious about what the psychedelic research is showing,
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  Speaker 1: where the future is headed, or how to make meaningful
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  Speaker 1: change in your life, this episode's for you. Let's get
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  Speaker 1: into it. Today we are here with Nick Bruce.
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  Speaker 3: Nick, welcome to Free Therapy. Thank you. Delighted to be here, fellas.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, excited to have you here. So Nick has spent
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  Speaker 1: the past 20 years as a therapist specializing in internal
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  Speaker 1: family systems and parts work, but also the past decade
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  Speaker 1: plus around psychedelics and therapy. And I just want to
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  Speaker 1: read this because it's so amazing. You're the supervisor on
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  Speaker 1: the FDA's phase three trials of MDMA for PTSD, and
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  Speaker 1: you're the lead therapist on Compass Pathways phase three psilocybin trials.
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  Speaker 1: for treatment-resistant depression. And we're excited to have you here
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  Speaker 1: to really talk about how psychedelics combined with therapy can
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  Speaker 1: really impact a lot of the things that people are
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  Speaker 1: struggling with. And an idea that is really central to
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  Speaker 1: a lot of your work as well with your upcoming
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  Speaker 1: book with Harper Collins, The Psychedelic Mindset. And so this
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  Speaker 1: conversation is not just for people who want to try
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  Speaker 1: psychedelic therapy, but actually for people who want to have
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  Speaker 1: the transformation that you would experience with psychedelics without the medicine.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Right on.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm excited to have you here.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks for coming on. I am stoked to
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  Speaker 3: be here.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to get into the specific medicines that you
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  Speaker 1: work with. But what's happened with psychedelics in the past
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  Speaker 1: decade that has shifted society and researchers' mentality on it
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  Speaker 1: being actually a really effective modality to heal depression, PTSD, trauma?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. So briefly, there's what people know of the 60s.
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  Speaker 3: And then in the 1970s, they kind of got locked up.
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  Speaker 3: Administration at the time said that they had no benefit.
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  Speaker 3: Psychedelics had no benefit. So it made research very challenging
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  Speaker 3: to do. Young researchers or researchers weren't going to invest
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  Speaker 3: in that because they didn't feel like it could go
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  Speaker 3: very far. And it's a real bummer because in the
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  Speaker 3: last 10 years, we've really seen an increase of research
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  Speaker 3: that shows the efficacy of these medicines, particularly when they're
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  Speaker 3: in conjunction with therapy.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like that's a big thing to say is
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  Speaker 2: when they're in conjunction with therapy. Yeah. Because I think
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people in the media, oh, we're just
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  Speaker 2: taking drugs.
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  Speaker 3: It's like, no, no, no, no.
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  Speaker 2: There's way more that psychedelic therapy does. So what are
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  Speaker 2: people not understanding about psychedelic therapy and how the efficacy
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  Speaker 2: has gone up so much?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of headlines. There's a lot of
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  Speaker 3: clickbait out there. You know, I've done 10 years of
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  Speaker 3: therapy and one night of ayahuasca.
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  Speaker 2: Not helpful.
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  Speaker 3: Not so helpful. We can unpack, I think, what's actually
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  Speaker 3: going on there. We're in a society where we want
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  Speaker 3: results right away. And anybody in a human body wants
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  Speaker 3: relief right away. So there is an innate urgency to
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  Speaker 3: try to not suffer. And when psychedelics are held up
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  Speaker 3: as a silver bullet, it's like, okay, let's do that. Right.
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  Speaker 3: The thing is, they are not a silver bullet. They
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  Speaker 3: are not for everyone. There are reasons some people should
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  Speaker 3: not take them. And very importantly, and to your point,
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  Speaker 3: is the container or the context in which we take
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  Speaker 3: these medicines very much affect the outcome of them or
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  Speaker 3: one's experience of them.
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  Speaker 2: What type of person do you think should not be
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  Speaker 2: considering psychedelic therapy?
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  Speaker 3: So the research would screen out certain diagnoses. Generally speaking,
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  Speaker 3: if you're unstable, don't do psychedelics. There's also some medical,
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  Speaker 3: you know, pregnant, uncontrolled high blood pressure. These are reasons
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  Speaker 3: not to.
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  Speaker 1: What is unstable?
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  Speaker 3: If you're actively suicidal, do not do psychedelics. If you
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  Speaker 3: feel like you're using it to get out of something,
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  Speaker 3: that is not... the ideal situation. If you're using it
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  Speaker 3: to avoid what's here, things are just kind of more
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  Speaker 3: prone to go off the rails because you're trying to
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  Speaker 3: get away from something. So that thing you're trying to
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  Speaker 3: get away from might just get cranked up. This is
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  Speaker 3: also why most psychedelics aren't addictive because if you're in
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  Speaker 3: a really bad place, it might just crank up the
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  Speaker 3: thing you're trying to get away from.
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  Speaker 1: So It's not a feel-good experience.
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  Speaker 3: It's not necessarily a feel-good experience.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And for listeners, it's like, and we can talk more
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  Speaker 3: about this, like what are the things that promote a
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  Speaker 3: positive experience? Let's start with like a positive experience and
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  Speaker 3: then take the healing from there. Within research, there are
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  Speaker 3: kind of these contained settings where there's a therapist there
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  Speaker 3: who know kind of what the trauma history is or
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  Speaker 3: they know their history and there's contact and preparation before.
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  Speaker 3: very much during a controlled dose, and then also integration
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  Speaker 3: sessions afterwards. So that all really helps what actually unfolds
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  Speaker 3: in the experience.
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  Speaker 1: Got it. And maybe let's take a step back, like
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  Speaker 1: when we talk about psychedelic-assisted therapy, what psychedelics are we
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  Speaker 1: talking about?
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  Speaker 3: You hear ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, and what's the difference? Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: so those three are kind of the main ones kind
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  Speaker 3: of moving up in societies. Ketamine is the only one
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  Speaker 3: that's legal by prescription. MDMA, some know it as ecstasy,
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  Speaker 3: and psilocybin. MDMA and psilocybin, there's a lot of research
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  Speaker 3: coming out about that. Briefly, MDMA has this capacity to
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  Speaker 3: increase trust by softening the fear response in us. That
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  Speaker 3: is a great space in order to deal with challenging
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  Speaker 3: or traumatic material. The research shows that I had the
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  Speaker 3: good fortune to be a part of the MDMA study
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  Speaker 3: here in L.A., And it shows that two-thirds of the
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  Speaker 3: people had MDMA. And these people were suffering from PTSD,
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  Speaker 3: not mild PTSD, like severe, on average of 14 years.
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  Speaker 3: And two-thirds of them improved as far as less symptoms
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  Speaker 3: so much that they no longer qualified for having PTSD.
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  Speaker 3: That is unheard of with existing treatments. And that is
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  Speaker 3: also why the FDA made MDMA, along with psilocybin, kind
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  Speaker 3: of gave it a breakthrough therapy status because it so
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  Speaker 3: outperforms existing therapies. Psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in
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  Speaker 3: magic mushrooms, one landmark study gave people in a therapeutic
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  Speaker 3: context a medium to large dose. And from that one
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  Speaker 3: dose in that therapeutic container, a third of them reported
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  Speaker 3: having 50% less of their depressive symptoms three weeks later.
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  Speaker 3: And again, here, this wasn't just garden variety depression. This
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  Speaker 3: was treatment-resistant depression, which means they've tried a number of
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  Speaker 3: other things. So there is real reason for excitement around psychedelics,
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  Speaker 3: and there's a real caution around them. And at minimum,
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  Speaker 3: just having an experience that kind of goes off the rails,
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  Speaker 3: it just leaves a lot of therapeutic meat on the bone.
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  Speaker 3: It's like a real opportunity to get to know yourself
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  Speaker 3: more and for more healing when we partner with these medicines.
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  Speaker 1: You have this line, you said, the medicine is not
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  Speaker 1: the medicine, which I love. And what you're getting to,
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  Speaker 1: which is really interesting, is like, is it the psychedelics
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  Speaker 1: that heal somebody? Or is it the container and the
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  Speaker 1: conditions that the psychedelics create that allows people to give
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  Speaker 1: themselves the healing they need?
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  Speaker 3: Psychedelics will not heal you. Full stop, exclamation mark.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: If that were the case, the 60s would just be
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  Speaker 3: this ripple of enlightenment, right?
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  Speaker 1: People at raves would just be experiencing healing from.
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  Speaker 3: All their traumas. What they do is they can create
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  Speaker 3: a space for us to know ourselves more, to know
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  Speaker 3: what's here, to know who's relating to what, or if
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  Speaker 3: we're kind of identified, again, as a particular part. So
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  Speaker 3: the medicines aren't going to do it for you. They
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  Speaker 3: can be part of the space chemically and logically for
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  Speaker 3: you to have a felt experience of. I'm a big
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  Speaker 3: fan of saying you get a reference point. If you
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  Speaker 3: take an MDMA, most people that take MDMA have an
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  Speaker 3: experience of like their heart just more open. They don't
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  Speaker 3: become someone else. It's just them with their heart a
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  Speaker 3: bit more open. There's less fear. There's a little more trusting.
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  Speaker 3: It's a lot more smiles, you know.
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  Speaker 1: It shows you what's possible in your experience of life.
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  Speaker 3: It shows you what's possible. And the work, the vast
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  Speaker 3: majority of the work, psychedelic experience is very small. The
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  Speaker 3: work is like, okay, great. That's a reference point. What
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  Speaker 3: do I, need to look at here how loving can
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  Speaker 3: i be or what do i need to meet inside
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  Speaker 3: of me and with other people in order to kind
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  Speaker 3: of move toward that reference point yeah.
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  Speaker 2: How important is it when you do these psychedelic Therapeutic modalities,
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  Speaker 2: the psilocybin one you mentioned and the MDMA. How important
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  Speaker 2: is it to be having done therapy beforehand? How important
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  Speaker 2: is it to be like in the world of mental
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  Speaker 2: health or is it something that you could just like
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  Speaker 2: start with? Like how do you know, I guess you
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  Speaker 2: have treatment resistant depression because you've tried a lot, right?
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  Speaker 2: And so then if there's like a last stop in
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  Speaker 2: psilocybin or ketamine, right? or for MDMA and trauma, 14
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  Speaker 2: years of trauma. How important is it to actually be
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  Speaker 2: doing different kinds of therapy before you approach this to
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  Speaker 2: know how severe your situation is?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind
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  Speaker 3: is how useful is it to practice before the game, right?
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  Speaker 3: Like it is, working with medicines is a, as far
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  Speaker 3: as clock time, pretty limited as far as your lifetime.
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  Speaker 3: You're going to spend maybe a couple hours, like a
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  Speaker 3: psychedelic journey is, anywhere from a couple hours to like
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  Speaker 3: six hours, some are longer than that. But to kind
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  Speaker 3: of tend to what needs your attention before then and
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  Speaker 3: kind of get to know inside who's who in your zoo,
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  Speaker 3: like a sense of what's going to come up and
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  Speaker 3: how to work with it. And we were talking a
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  Speaker 3: little bit before we started about like the intention. If
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  Speaker 3: there's an intention to turn towards what's here, that's humongous. Like, yes,
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  Speaker 3: to have some therapy is really helpful. so that you
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  Speaker 3: kind of know what your kind of narrative is and
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  Speaker 3: what you know already what might show up. And to
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  Speaker 3: have an intention, a willingness to meet what arises as
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  Speaker 3: it is. I mean, this has gotta be one of
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  Speaker 3: the biggest factors of how psychedelic session goes.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this feels like such a missing link in
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  Speaker 2: the narrative of psychedelic therapy. Because the headlines read, I
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  Speaker 2: cured my depression. In a six-hour trip. And what you're
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  Speaker 2: saying is so crucial is that you not only have
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  Speaker 2: to have been practicing with a therapist or a mental
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  Speaker 2: health practitioner for years to understand even where it came from,
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  Speaker 2: what you know about it, what you experienced. So there
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  Speaker 2: is this vulnerable state that you come on when you're
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  Speaker 2: on drugs. And to meet that with what it takes
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  Speaker 2: to actually get better from it means you have to
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  Speaker 2: be so in touch with with your own feelings and
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  Speaker 2: experiences to a level that needs to be like an
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  Speaker 2: expert almost. Or at least like average, above average. You
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  Speaker 2: can't just be like a beginner.
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  Speaker 1: At least a self expert, right?
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and wherever you're at on that spectrum, it's only
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  Speaker 3: more kind and loving to yourself to have had some
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  Speaker 3: exploration of what's going on. And not exploration on your own,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: not just journaling, but actually bouncing some of these ideas
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  Speaker 3: off someone maybe a professional who has a little bit
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  Speaker 3: of understanding of developmental psychology. That's all really helpful. But
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  Speaker 3: most people come to therapy because they feel stuck. They
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  Speaker 3: feel like, yo, I'm stuck. I'm depressed. I'm anxious. I'm broken.
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  Speaker 3: What is wrong with me? And most therapies tend to
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  Speaker 3: turn towards and help explore kind of their childhood. You
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  Speaker 3: get a sense of like, okay, this is the context
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  Speaker 3: you grew up in. And look, it makes sense. So
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  Speaker 3: people get into therapy and they learn like, oh my gosh,
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  Speaker 3: this makes sense. that I'm broken, that I'm stuck, that
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  Speaker 3: I'm depressed, that I'm hopeless. Because look, my mom did this,
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  Speaker 3: my dad didn't do that. There was this toxic situation,
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  Speaker 3: this traumatic event. Like, okay, great, that all makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: And then people are like, look, now I understand. Now
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  Speaker 3: I understand why I am broken, why I'm stuck. And
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  Speaker 3: from there, it's kind of like hands up. It's just like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: but why do I still feel like this? How come
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  Speaker 3: I can't like shift it and get out of it?
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  Speaker 1: Nothing changes.
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  Speaker 3: Nothing changes. So- what helps change, what helps durable change
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  Speaker 3: and things last is first a shift in the mindset.
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  Speaker 3: And when I say mindset, I don't mean, oh, just
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  Speaker 3: think differently. People that have even been to therapy and
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  Speaker 3: they're like, okay, I understand why now. There's still this
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  Speaker 3: mindset like I should know or that more specifically that
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  Speaker 3: I am the depression. I am depressed. I am anxious.
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  Speaker 3: Whereas the shift I'm talking about is I am aware
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  Speaker 3: of anxiety. I am aware of depression. I'm aware of
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  Speaker 3: a part of me that says I'm hopeless and that
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  Speaker 3: I'm broken. That shift is huge. We can say a
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  Speaker 3: part of me. is this and that, then we're no
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  Speaker 3: longer all of that. And the shift that I speak
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  Speaker 3: to in my book is a shift from disconnected, from
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: a disconnected mindset to a psychedelic mindset, which you do
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  Speaker 3: not need psychedelics for, or a psychedelic mindset. But the
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  Speaker 3: shift is to essentially returning to your essence, your true essence. IFS,
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  Speaker 3: which is kind of at the heart of the psychedelic mindset,
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  Speaker 3: calls it the capital S self, your true nature, your
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  Speaker 3: core self. And from there, we can relate to, we
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  Speaker 3: can get to know these parts of us. Even that awareness,
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  Speaker 3: I would say that's the beginning. The next huge layer
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  Speaker 3: is then being in relationship, growing and building relationship with
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  Speaker 3: these parts. You guys, myself, many people have had like
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  Speaker 3: these big openings. Like, wow, I see it. On psychedelics
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  Speaker 3: or not, they're like, wait, I'm not what I thought
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  Speaker 3: I was. Or there's more here than I thought. Or
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  Speaker 3: I'm actually... I'm really identified with that, but now I
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  Speaker 3: notice I'm not so much. I'm not that part. And
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  Speaker 3: then it just kind of like floats away like a
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  Speaker 3: really good vacation or a killer dream. The practice of
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  Speaker 3: being in relationship with these parts is what creates durable change. Hello, anxiety. Wow,
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  Speaker 3: I notice there's a part of me. And I'm a
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: big fan of, for myself and working with clients, speaking
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  Speaker 3: out loud when possible.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: A part of me is anxious right now.
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  Speaker 1: You've done this a lot.
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  Speaker 2: A lot. Can you talk about what you've done and
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  Speaker 2: how it's changed? Yes.
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  Speaker 1: You?
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  Speaker 2: Yes. For IFS, for like internal family systems.
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  Speaker 1: Because I'll set it up. I just think that what
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  Speaker 1: you said was so important.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And it put IFS and parts work in such an
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  Speaker 1: important context where this is why someone would start doing
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  Speaker 1: this work. Instead of someone saying, I'm depressed, they're saying
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  Speaker 1: a part of me is depressed.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And they're actually able to be in a relationship with
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  Speaker 1: that part, understand what that part needs, what that part
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  Speaker 1: is trying to protect.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so on.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the work.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I realized in therapy parts of my childhood
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  Speaker 2: that were not so great in the way they affected
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  Speaker 2: me today.
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  Speaker 3: Sounds like an understatement. Totally.
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  Speaker 2: Right. But like that's actually like a process voice being like,
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  Speaker 2: it's OK. It's not as heavy as it used to be.
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  Speaker 2: And parts work and understanding my my childhood that used
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: to be like, oh, I'm so anxious right now. It's like, no,
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  Speaker 2: I'm like feeling some anxiety because. there was this thing
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  Speaker 2: that happened and it would make complete sense that I
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: was anxious because of that. Or when I was very depressed,
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't noticing the difference between depression and sadness. Oh,
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  Speaker 2: I'm feeling really sad because that girl didn't call me back,
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  Speaker 2: but that's not depression. That's just a sad moment and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: that'll pass and feelings pass. But it was the relationship
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  Speaker 2: to those feelings and understanding them and separating from the
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: identity of those parts of me that were scared, alone, jealous, right?
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  Speaker 2: And then building a better relationship with them. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And the relationship ongoing is a really big piece that develops.
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  Speaker 3: So you just highlighted some nuance. And as we spend
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: time with these different parts, the model IFS calls them parts,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: but there's just different aspects of kind of how your
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: psyche was organized. And it's really easy to relate to
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: them the same way that you relate to your friends.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: We can relate to different aspects of ourself in the
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: same way. Yeah. You might even say, part of me
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: is active right now. And I am encouraging everyone to
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: just try that out, even if it sounds skunky or whatever.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: But try it out. Part of me is, and then
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: name whatever is kind of active. Is angry right now. Angry.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Part of me is angry right now. And oh my gosh, in.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Relationships, really helpful.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: The difference, imagine your partner coming to you and going like,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I'm so pissed at you. Right. Okay. That is what
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: it is. And the difference of like coming to you
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: and saying like, part of me is so pissed at
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: you right now.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Might even be the same tone, but there is immediately
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: a knowing that she is aware of a part of
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: her and there's a little bit of space there.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: And so that she can actually be present with that
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: to a degree and that you too can get on
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: the same team of like, okay, wow, why is this
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: part so angry and how do we help it out?
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I also think for a guy who is very solution-minded
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: and oriented, when someone says like, I'm angry right now
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: that you didn't take out the trash or do what
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: you said you would do. A guy is going to go,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I do so much for you. You don't recognize me.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: What the... But if instead she says... Part of me
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: is really angry right now with this thing. Then even
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: hearing that as a guy, you go, okay, it's just
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: part of her that's angry. The other part of her
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: still loves me and still gets that I'm doing a
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: lot for her.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: Spot on. There's the space that, as you just said,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: kind of naturally gets filled with and there's this other
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: part of her, and she still loves me. There's this
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: part that's angry, but, and there's this. Right. And I
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: just want to speak to the other side of that.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: So if someone comes to us and they speak for
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: a part rather than from a part, you speak for
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: a part, it's like, yo, I got this part. Here's
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: what it's saying. It's pissed at you. versus like just
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: from the part is like the part has your mouth
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: and it's like doing its thing.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: The other side of that is as you receive what
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: you just described, you could talk, you could speak for
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that part of you that just arose. Babe, when you
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: said that, I noticed a part of me just feels like,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: what happened to all the things I do around here?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Or what happened? I feel like I'm in trouble. I
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: feel like I'm getting scolded. A part of me feels da-da-da-da,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: You said something in your book around The goal isn't
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: necessarily to feel better. It's to get better at feeling.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Something to the extent of that a lot of our
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: psychological suffering comes from an inability or an unwillingness to
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: experience certain emotions. That's right.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: If the intention and the aim is to feel better,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: that's kind of a setup because you're trying to get
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: out of the present moment. Parts of you are resisting
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: what's here. This is big. And you can say part
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: of me is resisting what's here. then that reasserts you
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: kind of in the leadership role when the aim is
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: to get better at feeling. That means whatever's here, hello anger,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: hello sadness, hello grief, hello doubt, whatever it is, we
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: can work with that. We can meet with it. We
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: can relate to it. So much of our suffering comes
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: from pushing away what's here. I also want to highlight
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: the difference between an opening and transformation or healing. psychedelics, breathwork, meditation.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of things that can create a big opening.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: You can have a stellar dream and just wake up
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: being like, wow, things are different. There's an opening. And
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: then what do you do with it? Like, do you like,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: just like tell a couple of friends about it and
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: be like, Ooh, that's awesome. Or do you make a
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: practice out of like, let that be a reference point.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: So psychedelics can help open us and it can be
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: a reference point. Like, Oh, The way that I've been
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: relating has been pretty limited or pretty fixed in certain things,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: often identified as certain parts or when certain parts come up,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: it's like, oh, here's anxiety and now it's running the show.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: Different than like, oh, I see you, anxiety, hello, and yes,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: I know some of your history. I know why you're
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: trying to protect me. And there are questions we can
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: ask parts. What job are you doing? You can ask inside.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: And it's not using your mind to figure out. You
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: may have learned like, oh, I did this because... My
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: parent was inconsistent and I had to adjust. No, no, no, no.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: That's not what I'm suggesting here. And this is also
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: why IFS is kind of psychedelic in itself without substances.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: You can turn inside and similar to that beautiful meditation
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: you let us in before we started, you can settle
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: into a space that's more about listening inside. And when
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: we listen inside, we can ask what's here now, or
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: if there's something that's kind of up and activated, Then
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: we can ask, oh, what job are you doing? And
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: stay with it. Maybe nothing comes right away, but take
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: another breath and ask again and ask another time. But
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: you can learn what job it's doing, why it's doing
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: that job, how long it's been doing that job. And
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: this is important. What's it concerned would happen if it
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: stopped doing that job? Most protective parts have fears. They
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: are trying to protect you. You have come behind you,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: the book No Bad Parts. And the essence of that
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: book is that parts in themselves aren't bad. They actually
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: want something for you. And that as we get to
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: know them, compassion for them will naturally emerge.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Amazing. Talking about the transformative experiences, a psychedelic-assisted experience is
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: one of many. You talked about breathwork. You talked about yesterday,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: a near-death experience someone might have.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Or.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: even going to maybe a week long, going to a
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Joe Dispenza retreat or a Tony Robbins experience. Like these
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: are state shifting, these are language you used, experiences. And
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: sometimes you see these things last and make a difference
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: for years. And sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're kind of
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: an afterthought two months later. What is the difference?
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Integration really starts from the beginning. And it's with that
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: intention that it's not going to be, okay, I'm going
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: to do integration for two sessions after. Like that is
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: kind of how most of the fields has been seen it.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Like you do integration sessions and don't get me wrong.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I call them integration sessions in my private practice, but
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: it is an ongoing process. And the process is essentially
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: how you then relate to what arose, how you bring
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: it into, how do you harvest that insight and bring
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: it into your daily life? How do you bring it
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: into traffic? How do you bring it in when you
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: get that email? and part of you just erupts or
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: somebody doesn't text back and you get shut down and
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: stories go off about it. How do you meet that
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: in those moments? So to have an intention around that
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: and the shorthand is essentially being in dialogue with the
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: different parts of yourself that you previously identified as.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Beautiful.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I really want to just highlight there's ways. So let's
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: say we're in Los Angeles. Let's say we wanted to
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: get to New York. We could walk, we could drive,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: we could fly. Psychedelics might be like flying. We could
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: get there. And let me be clear, by getting to
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: New York, I don't mean enlightenment or a total healing.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: I mean this awareness of, oh, I'm not this broken
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: thing I thought I was, or I'm not so identified. Psychedelics,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: by and large, can help soften the rigid mindsets or
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: the rigid patterns that we think about ourself. And when
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: those soften, that is an opportunity. And what we're, I'm
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: so glad that we're talking about is like what we
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: then do with that opportunity. Do we choose to stay
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: in relationship with it? So very tangible example. Most often
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I have clients make time in their day to meet
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: with a part or parts that came up during a
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: psychedelic or just IFS therapy. Like, okay, I'm going to
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: spend One minute, three minutes, five minutes reconnecting with that
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: part that I connected with in therapy or in the journey.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. Also, don't think you're going
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to go and do this and just feel good.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: It is a journey you're going on.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Have a plan that you will, like you kind of mentioned,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: like the next day people just jump back into work.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I have people build in that space. And if they
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: don't have that space, let's find another time when you
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: do have space after so that you don't have to
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: click right back in. Amazing.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: That was interesting.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're just chipping the first piece of
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: this massive iceberg that is this work, but I'm so
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: grateful you came in to talk about it because it's
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: so important. It's so important too if someone's wanting to
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: explore this to understand the best way to do it
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and what actually gives you the best experience. One of
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: my biggest takeaways from this conversation is doing the medicine
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: is not going to change anything. You may have an experience,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: probably will have a big experience, But it's not going
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to change anything. So if you're just doing the thing
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: because you want change in your life.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: In that moment.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: The way to get that is by doing work before.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Even if it's finding someone who will do sessions beforehand
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: leading up to an experience and then integrating afterwards. And
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: finding a way to have consistent integration of that by
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: being in relation with your parts or whatever that work is.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: It's massive. And that's what really gives you an opportunity.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: To heal the.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Trauma, the depression, whatever's going on.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Psychedelics is a massive opportunity. You talked about how MDMA
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: can decrease fear and increase trust. And then we get
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: to know what comes up with that. With psilocybin, it
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: often creates more connectivity, connects some dots that maybe you
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: haven't connected. But generally, these medicines soften the rigid patterns
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: that we tend to be stuck in or just the
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: tracks we go over and over again. And a willingness,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: sessions before, but really a mindset that has a willingness
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: to turn towards whatever's arising, not just in the journey,
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: but beyond or after the journey is really good stuff. Nick,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: thank you for coming on.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: It was beautiful. That was amazing.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Appreciate it. So fun.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: How can people find you?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Dr.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Nick Bruce on Instagram.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And you have a book coming out with HarperCollins.com. In February?
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Called The Psychedelic Mindset.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: The Psychedelic Mindset, which is really all about shifting from
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: a kind of survival mode to more liberated living or
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: a disconnected mindset into remembering who you are.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Nick.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Thanks, guys.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the episode. We hope you loved it.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: So our goal is to get a million guys into
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: therapy with this show. And the biggest thing you could
• 29:02
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• 29:04
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• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Kev and I are so passionate about these conversations.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: It makes such a big impact on the show, and
• 29:11
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• 29:14
  Speaker 2: hear conversations like this.
• 29:15
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• 29:18
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• 29:21
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• 29:22
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• 29:24
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• 29:28
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• 29:31
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• 29:36
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