Latest / Camp Classics / Cruel Intentions (1999) vs Dangerous Liaisons (1988)

Transcript

Cruel Intentions (1999) vs Dangerous Liaisons (1988) · Camp Classics

0:00
Hola, It's Crystal here, coming to you live from Brazil.
0:05
If you listen carefully, you can actually hear the sound of waves
0:09
lapping in the distance. I could hear people getting
0:12
bored with me, but I couldn't stop.
0:14
Sorry this week's episode is coming up shortly, but I wanted
0:18
to let you know some exciting news.
0:20
Camp Classics is hosting our first ever live event in March.
0:26
It's happening in collaboration with the British Film Institute
0:29
as part of Flair Festival. Been a pressure.
0:32
Flair is the BF is annual LGBT Film Festival and our event is
0:37
happening on March 26th, which is a Thursday.
0:40
The event is called Queerly Beloved. 4 celebs will be
0:43
bringing a non queer movie that they think should be entered
0:45
into the queer lexicon. Baby and I and the audience will
0:49
decide it's going to be really camp.
0:52
Tickets are on sale next Friday, February 26th at noon.
0:56
It's at the BFI in London and seating is super limited so I
1:00
would really suggest you buy early if you can come.
1:04
And just think, this is your chance to shout wig in a room
1:08
full of like minded souls. Wow, Damien, you truly outgate
1:13
yourself. Hope to see you there.
1:15
Get away from her. You.
1:17
Bitch. Blasting.
1:20
He was in the Amazon primal when she was researching spiders
1:24
right before she died. I used to love.
1:34
Doggy chow I used. To love doggy chow too.
1:39
I'll let you put it anywhere. I'm Crystal.
1:42
What is this grandma with a birthday present?
1:45
Suck it you dumb bitch. I'm sue gives a fuck.
1:48
Oh my God. That's what I went with.
1:51
And welcome to Camp Classics. A thoughtful movie about camp
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podcasts. I forgot to tell you.
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That's now correct. Yeah, that's correct.
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That's what it is. This is.
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This is a movie of. It is a movie of Sorry, it's.
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Thoughtful podcast about camp movies.
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And I'm joined, of course, by the gorgeous Sue Gives a Fuck.
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Delighted to be standing in those very, very large shoes of
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Miss Baby Lame, who for present purposes is in a drawer under my
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bed. Oh.
2:31
Right, I was gonna say has fallen victim to one of my
2:34
psychosexual mind games. Have you ever fucked on cocaine,
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Nick? She's crudely drawn in a
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notebook, photocopied liberally. She wishes she was in my
2:43
notebook. What do I think of her?
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Yes, I don't think of her. Before we get into today's
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episode, we do have a Gatreon where you can get a bonus
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Thanks Juno, Francis and Tess. Yeah, or you could be like Mr.
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Bree, Bree and Laura who joined, rinsed the free membership and
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We support that too. Laura, you better get your bag.
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You know what you're doing. Times are tough.
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I do the same thing with subscription meal services.
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Help me, I'm poor. I bet you can get like you could
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probably eat for a whole month on the like free.
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You can eat for a month and then move to the next one and then
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the next one. I think I've tried about four
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now. I love that, love that.
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Well, we're much less expensive. We're basically the price of a
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posh coffee, so and you get, you know, a whole extra hour and a
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half of our nonsense every month so.
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Own posh people. But to seeing as baby isn't
3:46
here, do you think you could tell the listeners what makes a
3:50
camp classic? I will give it a go.
3:52
I have studied diligently for this role.
3:55
A camp classic is something that unlocks Queer Joy King.
4:00
It is something that it has a legacy.
4:06
It is something that is underground slash flop vibes.
4:14
And there's one more. It is stupid joy.
4:18
Stupid fun. Stupid fun.
4:20
I got AB minus for that you. Did very well, I'd say.
4:23
Yeah, good work. All right, she.
4:24
Listens to the podcast. And today we're actually letting
4:28
the listeners down because we are doing 2 movies, neither of
4:32
which is a flop. You're right, actually, they're
4:35
both successes. Yeah, we're doing something a
4:37
bit different today. We're doing 2 movies, 1 episode.
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This was not the original plan. No, it was not.
4:44
I asked Sue to come on and we were originally going to do
4:49
Dangerous Liaisons on the main feed and then Cruel Intentions
4:53
on the Gatreon. And then I watched both of them
4:56
and I was like, I can't, I can't talk about both of these movies
5:00
for yeah, they're the same movie.
5:02
Same movie, same subject matter. Yeah, but I in my memory they
5:06
were quite different. But no, they're not.
5:08
And so we're doing versus episode today.
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We're going to pit 2 Titans of sex games against each other and
5:17
see which one's camper the girls are.
5:22
Fighting and I think I know who's going to win.
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Yeah. Well, we'll see.
5:25
We'll see. Yeah.
5:26
So that'll be fun. We're doing Dangerous Liaisons
5:29
and Cruel Intentions. Perhaps we're calling it cruel
5:32
and dangerous. Cruel and dangerous.
5:34
That's what I'm calling it. I was also.
5:36
Wondering like what other titles would fit that format?
5:40
I mean, Basic Constinct is also along those lines, isn't it?
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But like unnecessary journeys, don't make unnecessary journeys.
5:53
You need remakes and things that are on the same subject matter.
5:58
First is. Oh no, I meant other.
6:00
What? Because the titles are like kind
6:02
of you. Just go in titles.
6:03
Yeah, yeah. What other things could these
6:04
movies have been called? Right.
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OK so I was going Emma and clueless.
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Right which? Is a whole different vibe.
6:10
Yeah, that would be quite fun. The Gwyneth Paltrow, Emma and
6:13
the Alicia Silverstone. Clueless.
6:14
Yeah. Pretty calm, sure.
6:16
Taming of the Shrew and 10 Things I Hate About You I don't
6:18
know, is there a movie? Oh, and they rhyme.
6:21
Gorgeous. Love that.
6:24
Well, we've comes the end of that segment now, haven't we?
6:27
We did really well. We got, yeah, we came up with a
6:29
couple. Wagner's ring cycle and Lord of
6:34
the Rings. And that's why I don't often get
6:37
to Co host. The Ring Cycle.
6:42
They did a porn parody of that too, didn't they?
6:45
No, they didn't of. Course they didn't.
6:47
Oh, I would watch that. The ring cycle.
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The Ring Cycle, the best porn parody title Parks and
6:53
Recreation, they have a porn character that does like spoof
6:57
porn films and she did a RIP off of Argo and it's called Our Goo
7:03
OK. Oh no, that does not work.
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You need to come back for babies porn quiz because we we had some
7:11
good ones. Oh my God, that's a segment.
7:14
Yeah, both of. I need that.
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Yeah, both of us also do it at like a drag brunch.
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We'll do like a true or false? Is this a real porn parody or
7:21
not? I actually love.
7:23
That How about this one Sperminator 2 judgement lay.
7:28
I can't remember if that's real or.
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Not if it isn't. I'm making it.
7:32
It just doesn't matter at this point.
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This has changed. Get your clothes off.
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We are making Sperminator 2. Yeah, right.
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Or perhaps a little bit of a scatty 1.
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I just came up with this off the spot.
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Sharknado 4. Sharknado.
7:51
No, no, it's already a portmanteau.
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You're right that it's a quad. It's a quad to portmanteau.
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Portmanteau 2 portmanteau and I'm so creative like that.
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Wow. And that is the kind of
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linguistic foreplay that you can expect.
8:16
What is your history with Cruel Intentions and or Dangerous
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Liaisons? Dangerous Liaisons I never
8:24
tried, always been curious. Cruel Intentions, it was
8:28
probably my favorite film as a team and rewatched it.
8:34
Maybe only somebody watched it about 6 times as a team and then
8:39
rewatched it. Maybe never all the way through
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since that time until this. Was so glad to revisit it
8:46
because you just don't know what's going to hold up and my
8:47
God it holds right up. Yeah, in ways.
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I mean, morals have changed. It's interesting how much morals
8:56
have changed since the 90s compared to the gap between the
9:00
1990s and the 1670s. Yeah. 1770s.
9:04
Yeah, 1770s. Yeah, yeah.
9:07
It's so true. To the point where they could
9:09
have Sarah Michelle Gellar do almost the same speech about
9:14
sort of proto feminism that Glenn Close does and Dangerous
9:17
Liaisons, and it's still hit just as hard.
9:20
Yeah. Which is basically, if men do
9:23
it, they're playing. Those were invented for the
9:26
modern adaptations. Do you know what I mean?
9:29
Like I bet she doesn't have a rant about she does feminism in
9:33
the oh she. Does 100.
9:34
Percent. Oh wow.
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But I mean, you know, read between the lines and you see
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it's actually about mad women, right?
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But like, it is still women are obliged to be closeted and
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costed and so I had to resort to cruelty and wickedness.
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Relatable, right? I mean, I'm not confined to my
9:53
house, but I'd prefer to stay there.
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So I just have to send messages online.
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This is the modern equivalent of Glenn Close and Dangerous
10:01
Liaisons. Is it like an insult in their
10:04
basement? Just a troll, yeah.
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In their mum's basement. Just say, Minga, you've seen my
10:12
posts. So yeah.
10:15
And me. What's my history?
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Yeah. Cruel Intentions.
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I think I kind of missed it as a teen, but definitely, you know,
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caught up pretty early on. And no real history with
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Dangerous Liaisons. I had seen it before, but I
10:27
watched it again this week. But yeah, they are the same
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movie, it turns out. Yeah, same subject matter during
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similar ways, very different contexts.
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Yeah, I would say expertly transposed from, yeah, 1770s
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French court to 1990s Manhattan prep school.
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Yeah, preppy kids. Yeah.
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So let's get into the context real quick, starting with
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Dangerous Liaisons. It was made in 1988 on a budget
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of 14,000,000, and it made 35 million at the box office, so a
11:00
decent, you know, modest hit. It has 91% on Rotten Tomatoes.
11:06
That's too many percent. Too many percent and it was
11:10
nominated for seven Oscars. That's too many.
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Best Picture, Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress.
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I'd say that's about 5 too many. It won adapted screenplay, art
11:21
direction, and costume design, Sure.
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Okay, fair enough. Okay, three too many.
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Yeah, starring. Oh gosh, what a list.
11:29
Glenn Close. Welcome to the podcast Glenn
11:31
Close. I believe this is our first
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Glenn Close picture. I think so.
11:36
We. Should probably do Fatal
11:37
Attraction at some point. Oh, absolutely.
11:39
John Malkovich? Fine.
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Michelle Pfeiffer. Enjoy your time on the podcast,
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John, because you ain't coming back.
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I think this is your one and only appearance.
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We've got Michelle Pfeiffer, Uma Thurman, Susie Kurtz, Peter
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Capaldi and Keanu Reeves. Oh, I forgot, Peter Capaldi as
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the Servant. Yes, that's camp, isn't it?
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Then moving on to Cruel Intentions, made in 1999 on a
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budget of $10 million, it made a whopping 76,000,000 at the box
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office. It's got 54% on Rotten Tomatoes.
12:16
Unreasonable. Too few percent you.
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Think that's too few? Way too few percent.
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Interesting. And it won such illustrious
12:24
awards as the Blockbuster Movie Award.
12:27
Favorite Supporting Actress? And the MTV Music Award Best
12:31
Kiss, Exactly, which holds up to this day because it's true.
12:36
Oh, that's spittle. Yeah, it is starring Are you
12:40
ready, Ryan Philippe, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Reese
12:44
Witherspoon and Selma Blair. Also starring Joshua Jackson,
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Christine Baranski, Tara Reid and also Susie Kurtz, she's the
12:57
one through line of. Course she is good for her.
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Good for her. OK, so the plot.
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I'm going to do my best to skim through this plot, but just
13:09
brace yourself for a bit of an overwhelming list of names.
13:12
But for the most part, the plot is the exact same, so we can
13:15
just hopefully skim through this.
13:17
OK, so it's Valmont and Mertoy plotting against the world.
13:22
They are sexy schemers. I'm sick of sleeping with these
13:26
insipid Manhattan debutantes. Valmont is played by John
13:32
Malkovich and Ryan Philippe, and Mertoy is Glenn Close and Sarah
13:37
Michelle Gellar. Oh, I love that you're combining
13:38
the two. Yes.
13:39
They make a wager about Valmont being able to have sex with the
13:42
purest virgin in the land who is Annette or Madame Torvell,
13:47
played by Reese Witherspoon and Michelle Pfeiffer.
13:50
If Valmont wins, he gets to have anal with more toy.
13:54
I believe the anal is implied in the classic traditional period
13:59
piece. It is explicit in Cruel
14:01
Intentions. She will let him put it anywhere
14:03
and they are stepbrother and sister in the new one so.
14:08
What a great pony choice that is, because I do feel like the
14:13
original work does suffer from like, well, just be together.
14:18
If you're going to have this weird, complex psychosexual
14:21
drama that, like, you mean so much more to each other than you
14:24
ever could to all of these other inferior people, just be
14:27
together. Yeah.
14:28
But you can't because you're siblings, which is so hot.
14:33
Is that? Oh don't pretend you haven't
14:35
watched those videos. Siblings is the least of it.
14:41
Jesus. I want to fuck.
14:43
And I don't Speaking of porn parodies, OK?
14:47
Simultaneously, they also conspire to ruin the reputation
14:50
of the innocent, naive Cecile, who is played by Selma Blair
14:54
slash Uma Thurman, partially just to piss off her mother, who
14:58
is Susie Kurtz slash Christine Baranski.
15:01
Valmont rapes Cecile and then becomes her sexual tutor, which
15:06
puts him at odds with her forbidden lover Dawnsony slash
15:11
Ronald, played by Keanu Reeves and Sean Patrick Thomas.
15:15
Valmont eventually succeeds in getting Annette Slash Torvell to
15:18
fall in love with him, but he accidentally falls in love with
15:22
her at the same time. Hate when that happens.
15:27
He feels kind of bad about his betrayal of her and this whole
15:30
thing he's doing, but they have sex and then Valmont goes to
15:35
Mertoi to get his prize, but she realizes he's in love and
15:40
doesn't want to be second fiddle to some prude, so she
15:43
manipulates him into breaking it off with Annette slash Torvell,
15:47
saying he'll lose his reputation as a Playboy.
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He then cruelly breaks up with Annette slash Torvell, only to
15:54
have Mertoi mock him for giving up on true love, and she still
15:58
refuses to have sex with him. But unfortunately I don't fuck
16:03
losers. War is declared between the two
16:07
and Murtoy 6 dulciny slash Ronald on Belmont, who is
16:12
accidentally killed. Valmont's journal slash letters
16:16
are then revealed after his death, showing the world how
16:19
Murtoy really is, and she is publicly shamed.
16:29
No, I think you nailed that. Okay, great.
16:31
And until you did that, I just hadn't realized how exactly the
16:34
same they are. Exactly the same.
16:36
But yeah, maybe we could start with our verses and our camp off
16:40
of the point differences. Okay, fun.
16:42
Because there are some, but they're minor.
16:45
I'd say the teen one does a surprisingly decent job for the
16:50
time of trying to give some of the women a bit more agency and
16:53
a bit more depth, and that especially comes through during
16:58
the ending, which in Dangerous Liaisons 1988 Michelle Pfeiffer,
17:04
she just dies. She just dies.
17:08
She's. Just broken hearted.
17:10
Of heartbreak. She dies of heartbreak.
17:12
Because she can't have the man that raped her.
17:14
She makes a county corpse though she is hot.
17:18
I mean she's outrageous. She makes a Kunti living person
17:21
as well. Beautiful Kunti really isn't.
17:23
That when she's all blue and they're like closing her eyes,
17:25
I'm like, wow, you look, you look stunning.
17:27
Well, we do love sexy dead women.
17:30
Meanwhile in Cruel Intentions Media, Yeah.
17:32
Meanwhile, in Cruel Intentions and that she gets revenge, she
17:36
gets she wins laugh, she wins. It ends with her driving off in
17:39
Sebastian's car, hair in the wind, looking pretty sick.
17:43
Yeah, so that's quite fun, apparently.
17:46
Reese Witherspoon said no to the role when she was offered it,
17:50
and then campaigned to basically give Annette more depth, to give
17:55
her a bit of sass, to give her more agency, just basically give
17:58
her a bit of spunk. I heard this, which is really
18:00
impressed because she was really young, early 20s.
18:03
And so to have the Hotspur to say to a director know you're
18:08
going to rewrite this character, and then to know how to do that
18:11
to create a more empowered character, it's pretty
18:14
impressive, I think. Go on, Reese Witherspoon.
18:16
I think so. And they do the same to a degree
18:19
with Sarah Michelle Gellar's character.
18:21
So the sort of pivotal moment was the end where she reneges on
18:26
their agreement. So Glenn Close reneges for a
18:30
position of weakness because she will not be second fiddle.
18:34
But ultimately she won't shag him because she's in love with
18:39
him and she sees that he doesn't love her and that he loves
18:43
Michelle Pfeiffer, and she breaks down and she can't cope
18:45
with it. Sarah Michelle Gellar says I
18:48
don't fuck losers. Unfortunately I don't fuck
18:51
losers. That's different.
18:53
Relatable. Yeah, so she kind of wins before
18:56
interesting as a an iconic photocopy based downfall.
19:03
One of two in this year because Jawbreaker comes out this year
19:07
too. What's it so?
19:10
Which one was first? Good question.
19:12
I don't think that they would. Have they would have written it
19:14
independently, weren't they? Wow.
19:17
And were those were there any photocopy based downfalls in
19:21
cinema before this? There must have been, because.
19:23
Obviously there's Mean Girls that comes afterwards, but 1999
19:27
was the year of that. Yeah, I often think of Mean
19:31
Girls as just totally ripping off Jawbreaker with that bit,
19:35
but actually, yeah, you know, it's ripping off.
19:38
It's kind of Fair play at that point.
19:40
It's just like, well, that's this is now a trope, so.
19:42
This is just how we do teen movies.
19:44
Photocopy based downfalls. Yeah, that's interesting.
19:46
You were talking about the Sarah Michelle Gellar and Glenn Close,
19:50
because I actually thought it was more interesting, the Glenn
19:54
Close situation. But you're right, she does have
19:57
less power. Which is itself, I think, a bit
20:01
more psychologically interesting because Sarah Michelle Gellar's
20:03
because especially they do give her a feminist speech, but they
20:07
just don't quite have the power behind it that you would have in
20:10
1770. Yeah.
20:12
So her kind of cruelty comes off as nihilistic.
20:16
Yes. And so still very sexy and
20:19
fabulous, but maybe just a little bit less gripping.
20:22
You don't get that. You're never going to get an
20:24
Oscar winning breakdown moment. If your character is just a
20:27
nihilist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:29
It's very well said. It is camper though.
20:32
Oh yeah, it's way camper than to just because.
20:35
She's just ice queen and it's and it's aspirational, frankly.
20:38
Life's a bitch now. So am I.
20:41
Yeah, May. She's just an ice queen with a
20:44
cocaine crucifix. Yeah.
20:46
Aspire to be. I bought a cocaine crucifix.
20:53
Turns out they're not very sturdy.
20:54
Those little spoons, they'll get bent and then it's no point to
20:57
it. Oh wow.
21:06
Don't do drugs, kids. Or at least if you're going to
21:08
get expensive for central girls. Just a normal spoon.
21:13
The other big plot point I would say is Valmont's character.
21:17
The the big difference between the two, because I would say in
21:20
Cruel Intentions, he's kind of redeemed.
21:23
Oh yeah, he wins, doesn't he? And.
21:26
In death, he has a real change of heart that we see.
21:30
He sacrifices himself to save a net.
21:33
He pushes her out of the way of the car so he gets hit and he's
21:36
really changed his mind. Was meant to see believe that
21:39
this character has undergone a transformation.
21:42
So he's more interesting, she's less.
21:44
Right. Yeah.
21:45
And then in Dangerous Liaisons, I guess there's a a bit of that,
21:50
but. He kind of falls for Michelle
21:51
Pfeiffer. Yeah, he falls for her, but
21:53
there's never, there's not quite as much of like a hero journey
21:57
situation there. He doesn't get the full
21:59
redemption. He kind of dies a schmuck.
22:01
Yeah, there's an undignified death and he has rejected
22:05
Michelle Pfeiffer. At that point, yeah.
22:06
Which is camper though. As in a choice in the as an
22:10
ending. Because it that one of the, the,
22:15
the problem I think I might have with cruel intentions is this
22:17
redemption storyline, because he is just such a piece of shit and
22:20
like, I'm not willing to like forget about his at best date
22:25
rape, a homophobic blackmail, psychological manipulation,
22:31
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Revenge porn.
22:34
Revenge porn The movie starts with him doing revenge porn on
22:37
Tara Reid. On Tara Reid, so excited about
22:40
Sharknado and I hope you stay married.
22:43
I'm using it as a way to get at her mom.
22:45
Yeah, quite cap. That's quite cap.
22:49
I mean, it's like it's a really fun opening.
22:51
It's a really fun opening. One of the things with good
22:53
intentions I the really problematic moments, they're
22:57
wittily written to you struggle. Like Susie Kurtz saying to Tara
23:02
Reid, how could you be so stupid?
23:04
Yeah, it's just immediately goes to victim blaming when she gets
23:08
revenge porn. It is quite fun when Selma Blair
23:12
has her legs in an undignified akimbo because she hasn't
23:17
learned to sit properly. And Ryan Philippe says, oh, how,
23:21
How are things down Under? Blossoming, I hope.
23:24
And Christine Baranski says close your legs.
23:26
This isn't Jamaica. I love Christine Baranski's
23:31
character because she's just playing like, yeah, a parody of
23:35
a racist, and it's really, really funny.
23:37
Like what does that even mean? Nobody's see, This is why it's
23:40
good writing because it's such a curveball.
23:41
And it just makes you like, you gasp, you, you gasp because you
23:45
also like, they've been on holidays to Jamaica or there's
23:48
something that stand. Why does Jamaica stand in for
23:51
everything that's wrong in this world for her?
23:53
And it's just like, I'm just getting a vision into this
23:55
little world of yours. Yeah, I'm wonderful.
23:58
I mean, it's, it's racist. Yeah, but it's but you're meant
24:00
to laugh at this woman for being racist, I think.
24:03
Whereas I think with the Susie Kurtz line, you're like, I'm not
24:06
sure if the movie, which side the movie thinks about this.
24:09
Like, does it think that it's Tara Reid's fault?
24:12
I think it might. I don't think the movie thinks
24:14
the racism of Christine Baranski is OK, and it's definitely
24:17
making fun of Christine Baranski.
24:19
We have come a long way in 20 or so years.
24:22
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually, I don't think
24:25
even the audience, it would really have occurred to the
24:27
audience that like, it's problematic to say that she
24:29
really should have not let revenge porn be made about her.
24:33
Honestly. Victim blaming was not a term.
24:36
No, no. When did that get invented?
24:38
Last month, probably, yeah. So where were we?
24:43
Oh, yeah. Valmont.
24:44
Yeah. This is just this whole
24:45
redemption. I just.
24:46
That is the thing that I think stuck in my craw the most.
24:50
Watching Cruel Intentions this time I was like how dare you try
24:53
and convince me that this D bag is somehow redeemed.
24:57
Because especially when you're doing he.
24:58
Hasn't earned it. No.
24:59
And when you're doing a moralistic ending for Sarah
25:01
Michelle Gellar's character? Exactly because why is she
25:04
punished and he's not? Yeah, but you do have to have a
25:08
winner. You can't.
25:08
I mean, you don't because actually Fatal Attraction, they
25:12
they're both losers. So you could go down that route.
25:14
Do you think that would be better?
25:16
I think it would have made a less successful teen movie
25:19
because this movie is kind of trying to figure out a way to be
25:23
a romance story, which is a weird thing to try and do with
25:27
this source material, I think. It's so right.
25:29
It's a romance, isn't it? And it also gives you one more
25:32
twist. Yes.
25:34
Which it does benefit from, Yeah.
25:37
Like it really uses that photocopy demise really well.
25:41
So I love it. OK, but then how about the
25:44
actual ending scenes though? Because in Dangerous Liaisons.
25:50
Both bad. We get some bad combat in both.
25:56
Movies. OK, Yeah, yeah, the fight
25:58
scenes. Oh no.
26:00
Were there were there no combat choreographers at that time?
26:05
I like to think in Dangerous Liaisons, when they're doing
26:08
this little fencing duel, that they're meant to look like
26:11
idiots. Yeah, I get that.
26:13
I don't think they, I don't know if that's true or not, but
26:15
that's my reading of it. Like they're meant.
26:17
It's like, look how stupid these boys are.
26:20
It's playing with swords. The girls are fighting.
26:25
It is undignified, and I hope that's a generous reading.
26:27
And it's very. There might be some truth in
26:29
that because that it does also work thematically.
26:32
Yeah. Less so in Cruel Intentions.
26:35
Yeah. It's just bad.
26:37
Yeah. Because you know what they
26:39
needed to do with Cruel Intentions, which is they needed
26:43
the Rodney Dorsett Dawnsony character to pull a knife on
26:47
him. Right.
26:49
But they have obviously could not do that to the only black
26:52
character in a film that really plays with racism.
26:55
Yeah. So there's just that just was
26:57
not an option. And So what they had to have is
27:00
he is cajoled into starting this fight, which he doesn't want to
27:05
start. He's being very reasonable, but
27:08
he does throw a punch and and then Annette Reese Witherspoon
27:15
runs in to save Ryan Philippe. But then she somehow rolls into
27:23
the road a few times to get really under the wheel of a car,
27:27
and Ryan Philippe has to run and save her and then lie himself
27:31
under the car. And he gets hit by a car not
27:35
moving. Not that quickly, I don't.
27:37
I'm just gonna say I don't think that man is dead, no.
27:39
He's not. Also, she did not need to save
27:41
him because when she runs over, Rodney has just got him just
27:45
with his arms just behind his back, just like that in in 1/2
27:48
Nelson. Yeah, No one's in trouble.
27:51
They're doing a bit of WWF. It's not a problem.
27:54
Boys will be boys. Let them have fun.
27:55
It never really works. That trope of I need to push
27:58
someone out of the way of a car because the second you analyze
28:02
it and it's sometimes movies can convince you, like through
28:06
camera trickery, that is a problem.
28:08
There's somehow time for that to happen.
28:10
But this movie fails because that car is approaching for a
28:13
very long time. It's got to be going very
28:16
slowly. But also, OK, so then that fight
28:19
scene, yes, I don't know if anything gets to be called camp
28:23
there, but it's probably the sword play if if one's going to
28:26
be camp Kemper over the other. But you know, we're we're
28:30
talking small potatoes here. But how about like the Murtoy,
28:36
the ruin of her because Glenn Close finds out that Valmont is
28:43
dead and she trashes her gorgeous apt.
28:47
I mean, that is fabulous. It's fabulous and it's a great,
28:52
grotesque performance. Yep.
28:54
And then she goes to the opera, she's composed herself and
28:58
she's, you kind of get the impression, OK, she's shaking it
29:00
off like, and that's kind of you're back to icy Facade.
29:03
Yeah, which is, which is nice. And still we see the colour has
29:07
drained from her face, like she is going through the motions
29:10
now. Yeah, and then the entire Opera
29:13
House turns at her and looks at her, and she realizes everyone
29:17
knows all of her secrets. And then they start booing.
29:22
They start, they start ooing. Oh, hello.
29:28
Who chose that? I don't know, but it's great.
29:31
There's so many gorgeous costumes like it is, you know,
29:35
hundreds of extras dressed stunningly just giving her a
29:39
good ooing. It's nice.
29:41
It's undeniably calm. Yeah.
29:42
And then she just pivots. She's like, I won't let them see
29:45
me weak. I won't let them see weak.
29:46
And she just stumbles a little bit on her way out-of-the-box.
29:50
Fabulous. And then we see her back in the
29:53
mirror where we started the movie, and she's removing her
29:56
makeup, which is a trope that I will always enjoy the substance.
30:01
If it ain't broke, yeah. And she's just like rubbing
30:04
herself raw. Single tier excellent.
30:08
Exquisite Sonim, whereas crude intentions you've got
30:12
Sebastian's funeral. Sebastian's funeral.
30:14
And all of the students are there and she is.
30:18
Sarah Michelle Gellar is giving her speech as class president
30:22
and she is showing single tier again.
30:25
She is going to cope. And she knows that Sebastian
30:27
would say, I'm sorry. And he would say, and then he,
30:32
she knows that people are leaving.
30:34
And she's like, what is going on?
30:35
So she follows them outside, and she sees that it's actually
30:39
Selma. Blair is handing out these
30:41
photocopied printouts from Sebastian's journal, which are
30:48
absolutely not befitting the sophistication of the character.
30:52
Yeah, ring, but like plastic ring binder.
30:55
Say like, like we're just like a picture of her with like I'm a
31:00
bitch in like speech, Mark. And this is a guy who like open
31:05
till this point has had these, you know, Machiavellian
31:09
manoeuvres and these like clean cut tailored suits who seems
31:14
like he's like 36 even though he's about 19.
31:17
Well, no. 17. 17 of course, but he keeps the diary of a 12 year
31:21
old girl. Yeah, that's now being
31:23
photocopied and released and it includes the cross.
31:27
So then the, I think it's the head teacher is it that comes
31:29
out and shakes the Coke out of her cross and she is, she's
31:33
destroyed. And then we have a net driving
31:36
away, hair in the wind in Sebastian's old sports car.
31:39
Yeah. So which is better?
31:41
I think that the Dangerous Liaisons ending is both camper
31:46
and actually technically better. It's funner to watch.
31:50
Both are great, don't get me wrong.
31:52
I think it's a great Cruel Intentions.
31:54
It's a great ending, but I got to give it to Glenn in this one.
32:01
I don't know. I love AI, love a neat little
32:03
twist and I love a film where the the the twist or the climax
32:11
really the is the downfall is seconds before credits roll,
32:15
right. There's no real tie up.
32:17
All it is that one shot of a net driving away.
32:20
I really, really like that. There's no time.
32:23
It's just like, OK, she's one, she's ultimately one.
32:27
She's giving this speech. It's the high point and then
32:30
she's destroyed the end. I really enjoy that and like, do
32:36
you does it count as a twist if you kind of see it come in?
32:39
Because you we always know that he's had his notebook.
32:42
Yeah, I don't know. I can't put myself back into a
32:46
headspace where I didn't know what was going to happen.
32:48
So maybe the maybe you're right, Like on first, the first impact
32:52
of ever seeing Cruel Intentions. Maybe it's fun.
32:55
It's really fun. And then you'd see that it's
32:57
Selma Blair's character that is handing them out, and that's
33:00
like a real growth for her because she's been basically a
33:03
baby. True.
33:04
And now she's getting her revenge.
33:06
Again, not I'm not sure the movie earned that transformation
33:10
for Selma Blair. And also in this world of slut
33:13
shaming that we inhabit in Cruel Intentions, where it's bad
33:16
enough that Sarah Michelle Gellar has to become the Uber
33:19
bitch to survive. Sorry, Selma Blair and Reese
33:22
Witherspoon are not getting out of that journal unscathed.
33:24
They are also social pariahs now, and you have to just
33:29
pretend that like, they're not for the purposes of this movie,
33:33
but like in the real world, they're getting just as bad as
33:36
Sarah Michelle Gellar. If anything, Sarah Michelle
33:38
Gellar might get some points for being at least, you know, a.
33:42
Mean Girl. Yeah, we love Mean Girls.
33:44
Whereas, as the opening of the film makes clear, we hate a
33:47
victim. Yeah, 1999 hated A victim.
33:50
And they're kind of even more victims than Tara Reid was.
33:53
Yes. You're right there folks.
33:55
Yeah, you're right. OK.
33:57
So I'm going to give it overall ending to the 1989 with the
34:03
caveat that I actually don't find smashing up the room that
34:08
interesting because it is just so standard.
34:10
Yeah, it's Trophy. It's a beautiful room she's
34:13
smashing up. And she smashes very well.
34:15
Yeah, and this, I think there's a whole trope running through
34:18
this movie with mirrors. There is.
34:20
And so then she smashes all her mirrors, which I quite like.
34:23
Which is great because it is all about being seen, yeah.
34:26
What about just like, OK, so let's look at Glenn Close versus
34:30
Sarah Michelle Gellar that feels shouldn't ever really have to be
34:34
put against each. Other That feels unfair to Sarah
34:38
to say that because I cannot find a flaw in what she did.
34:42
No, like, it was so hot. Yeah.
34:46
I don't think there's any actor, dead or alive, that could have
34:50
played that part within the limits of that part better.
34:54
Oh wow, I don't. Like, I can think of people who
34:57
would have played it at that time, like friend of the show
35:00
Rose McGowan would have played it probably quite similar.
35:03
I don't think anyone could really have done it better.
35:06
Yeah. I think you're probably right
35:07
about that. She killed it and she was
35:09
initially cast as a net, right? Because I guess as of Buffy,
35:13
everyone just thought she was the good girl and she was like,
35:15
I don't want to be a good girl. And apparently Joss Whedon, RIP
35:20
said don't do it. It's porn.
35:24
Yeah, Sarah, Michelle, Gellar's manager, said don't do it.
35:28
Everyone's just starting to like you.
35:29
Why would you do that? Yeah.
35:30
And so she fired him. She fired him.
35:32
She. Apparently really pursued that.
35:34
Like the script ended up with her and she was like, I want to
35:37
be in this movie. That's.
35:37
Great. It is great.
35:39
I mean, we love to see someone playing against type.
35:42
It's so refreshing. And she's like just, it's so
35:45
nail on the head. But she's like, what if I was a
35:47
bad girl with brown hair? I mean, that's just like the
35:52
rules of feminism, right? And this is important because
35:57
one problem I had with Dangerous Liaisons is I will not permit
36:00
you to cast Uma Thurman and Michelle Pfeiffer in next to
36:05
each other in roles because I can't tell them apart.
36:07
What I cannot tell them apart. They are 10 years apart in age,
36:11
but they look identical and they are both blonde.
36:14
And we all know that in a period drama where everyone is white,
36:17
one has to be blonde and one has to be brunette.
36:18
The rules of feminism and those of us would not even face
36:21
blindness, but with just like a normal difficulty in
36:24
discriminating faces. Just cannot watch the film
36:26
because I'm like, who is John Malkovich in love with?
36:29
I don't know you. Have no business being on this
36:31
podcast. If you can't tell, Uma Thurman
36:34
and Michelle Pfeiffer are part I'm sorry.
36:36
I couldn't lie, to this day I cannot.
36:39
One played Poison Ivy and one played Catwoman.
36:42
The rules of feminism look, I need different hair colours and
36:46
I need different costumes, I think.
36:47
That's fair. Uma Thurman has huge tits, big
36:52
boobs. You see in this film.
36:54
Yeah, you see them? You do see them.
36:57
Would we say huge? Yes.
36:58
Are we saying huge tits? Yeah, they they were.
37:02
They made me gasp. I guess you need to roll.
37:05
Back the same. Really think about them.
37:07
Yeah. I was just thinking because I
37:10
think I just read that Uma Thurman didn't want to do tits
37:13
out nudity. Right.
37:15
So I think maybe I was moralizing as I was watching it.
37:19
So they made her do it, did they?
37:20
Yeah, and she's 18 in this movie.
37:23
It's not great. That's.
37:24
Actually gross. I read that she said that she
37:26
wouldn't do it again. Wow.
37:28
And it was so unnecessary. Yeah, totally.
37:31
Whereas crude intentions, way, way sexier film and the only
37:36
nudity is Ryan Philippe's bum. You're right, feminism, which
37:40
not only it's a man's nudity is also done tastefully.
37:44
It's funny and it really, really fits with the character because
37:47
that's his technique. And as soon as we see the bum,
37:50
we're like he's tricked her. He's sent her off to go and get
37:53
changed and he's waited until she comes down and he's not yet
37:56
put on his bathing suit. So it really, really works.
37:59
Whereas Zuma, Thurman, it's just like we're just going to need
38:01
your tits out because you're hot.
38:03
Yeah, you're so right. And it's tits out also when it's
38:06
like she doesn't have the worst. No, no.
38:12
Is that the worst? That's she's getting raped?
38:14
Yeah, yeah, she's literally being raped.
38:16
That is the worst. So not only is she is it against
38:18
her will in the movie, it's also against her will in the, like,
38:23
real world where that she's making this movie.
38:26
Yeah, awful. That's gross.
38:28
Yeah. That's not even like
38:31
problematic, but I can see what they would do, no?
38:33
There's no need for it. There's no need for it.
38:36
And the fact that it's being done by John Malkovich, who's,
38:38
you know, twice her age. Yeah.
38:40
And so I spent the whole film being like miscast because one
38:46
is shit and two, he's not. I don't think he's shit.
38:52
We'll come back to it, but we will agree on the second part.
38:54
And but then I I was like, none of these women would fall for
38:57
him. But she did.
38:59
Yeah, they had a relationship and it cost him his marriage.
39:02
Uma Thurman and. No, sorry.
39:04
Michelle Pfeiffer. Oh yeah, they had an affair on
39:06
that and it ended his his relationship with his wife.
39:09
Wow. Interesting.
39:11
So, women, what are we doing? I don't fuck losers.
39:15
Definitely he does not get any like gay man points unlike Ryan
39:19
Philippe and that. But in that shot, I mean, it
39:23
was. And he is the only man who has
39:26
ever looked sexy in rimless glasses.
39:29
Something changed with that, but yeah, something shifted in the.
39:33
Culture. Was that what to do?
39:37
I think it was too late by then, OK.
39:38
But yeah, like that was seismic. I don't think like has it been
39:43
matched in since until like he did rivalry.
39:46
I'm going to say that's like the next most memorable but I can
39:50
think of in the shower. Right.
39:52
Have we had better gay wank bang bombs in cinema?
39:56
Between cruel intentions and heated rivalry.
39:59
You don't get many men's bombs. No, you used to.
40:02
I feel like in the 90s it was like more of a thing.
40:04
I feel like. Who was it in?
40:06
There's one I can remember in Tomb Raider, who she opposite in
40:09
Tomb Raider, I can't remember. I don't remember, but he gets
40:12
out of the shower and you're like, oh, but it used to be the
40:14
thing to do if you had a good butt in Hollywood, I feel.
40:17
Or if you had a good double. That's true.
40:19
Good point. I have rewinded it to be like.
40:22
Is that a double? I think it could be Oh.
40:24
Really. I think it could be because he's
40:27
just, he's so hot, but he's not like he's not built.
40:32
And that's a Bill bum. It's a Bill bum, but the rest of
40:35
yeah, interesting. I it has never occurred to me to
40:38
think that isn't his butt and I'm going to just pretend.
40:43
Listeners, let us know. But yeah, Valmont in Dangerous
40:47
Liaisons, what I would say is you get the sense I'm.
40:50
Looking it up, whether it's his bum, carry on.
40:53
You do get a sense from that man that he has fucked and he knows
40:56
how to fuck and he's like, he's got a disgusting sexuality about
41:01
him that I I think is effective. Now, I would agree with you that
41:05
he's not hot enough to be playing this character, but
41:09
almost the fact that he's kind of not hot is, it almost gives
41:12
it something a bit more for me. This is Bum.
41:15
Okay, good. It gives it more because it's
41:17
more gross. Yeah, there is this
41:19
juxtaposition between this sort of much younger and much more
41:25
kind of like rigidly conforming to beauty stereotypes ladies
41:30
with with him who doesn't feel obliged to.
41:33
Yes, agreed. But I don't find him sexy and
41:35
charismatic. He doesn't seem to me like
41:38
someone who is so brought up in that expectation of unequal
41:43
treatment, whereas Ryan Philippe does.
41:45
He's just like, well, of course I'm going to get away with
41:48
whatever I want. He doesn't seem like that.
41:50
I think other actors who are also not regulation hotties
41:54
could have played it like maybe like Jeremy Irons.
41:58
OK, Yeah. Who could be sexy, but not
42:01
necessarily that like regulation hottie.
42:03
Maybe even Alan Rickman. Right.
42:05
Who played it in the the play that it's based on?
42:09
Yeah, I think could have pulled it off more.
42:10
Right. I see that he plays it like like
42:13
an Efsler. He seems so gay so.
42:18
Gay. Like he's at one point he hisses
42:21
at Susie Kurtz. He does.
42:23
He goes. I'm like you, Queen.
42:27
He also doesn't play it remotely period.
42:30
And now I am OK with them doing just modern American accents
42:35
because sometimes it's kind of weird when they use like an old
42:39
British RP as a stand in for French or whatever it is.
42:42
So I'm fine with that. But I did read that James
42:45
Acheson, the costume designer, hated the whole thing because he
42:49
made these exquisite costumes. And then he said the answers
42:51
were not interested in the costumes, and they did not look
42:54
it up. And he said, specifically,
42:55
Malkovich would have had a dancing master from age of 6,
42:58
but Malkovich just slouched in all of these costumes.
43:01
So he's like buttoned into these courses and they're all just
43:04
rippled and creased and whatever because he's just sitting, you
43:06
know, like this. Right.
43:08
And that's how he played it. And, I mean, I didn't buy it.
43:13
I wanted him to have a grace. Yeah.
43:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that. And that is something I would
43:18
say that Ryan Phillippe does have those.
43:21
Yeah. What I find weird about Cruel
43:24
Intentions, I think that the age thing is very strange, that all
43:30
of these people are supposed to be 17 and Cecile is 15.
43:34
Eek. Like no one is having good sex
43:37
at 17, let alone being like some kind of master seduct seductor.
43:43
Yeah. Master seducer.
43:44
Seducer. Seducer.
43:46
Yeah. Seducer and seductress, yeah.
43:49
Seduces, MO. One who seduces, Yeah, it's just
43:55
not, it's not believable, but whatever they're.
43:57
They're all. Actually 25.
43:59
So it's fun. In his review said it used to be
44:03
that teenagers went to like R rated movies to watch adults
44:07
have sex and now adults go to our rated movies towards
44:10
teenagers have sex, which is very true.
44:13
It's also, it's all very wild things, isn't it?
44:15
Again, it's like you've got people pushing 30 playing high
44:18
school like. I think we just have to accept
44:21
that that's how it is, yeah, Teenagers can't act.
44:24
Quite camp, yeah. Yeah.
44:26
And also, I don't want to see a teen in that role.
44:29
I don't. Not the Selma Blair role.
44:30
No, then we're getting very notes on a scandal.
44:34
Which is on the list. Yeah, it's, well, it's just been
44:37
covered. Oh.
44:37
Have you just done it? Yeah, have you?
44:39
Understood it. It came out today OK.
44:41
I'm going to listen to that one, yeah.
44:43
OK, what else? So are we saying performances?
44:49
We compared Glenn and Sarah. Did we actually I.
44:54
Don't think we finished the job. No, you're right.
44:56
We didn't. You didn't.
44:57
We didn't. You're just not allowed to not
45:00
give it to Glenn. Yeah, exactly.
45:02
And also, it's illegal. It's Sarah Michelle Gellar's
45:05
character might be a bit more camp, but Glenn, like she's just
45:10
giving that predatory eagle eyed, like she's about to devour
45:16
you in every scene. You know that?
45:18
What's that meme of her on the red carpet?
45:20
I can't remember who she's looking at but she's like.
45:24
Oh yeah, what is this? This is where she perfected that
45:26
look. It is.
45:28
It's a look of desire and joy, but with hidden intention.
45:33
So good. It's so good and she just spends
45:35
the whole movie doing that and it's so fabulous to watch.
45:38
She does. You're right, she's given more
45:39
to do. But even in the scenes where
45:41
she's probably given the same amount to do, she is doing more
45:43
There's. So many, I mean, they both have
45:45
bits where they like, turn away from the person they've just
45:47
been talking to and like roll their eyes or whatever.
45:50
But like, you want to watch Glenn Close to that?
45:52
Like that's what she was born, born to do.
45:55
Are there bits where she's doing too much?
45:57
No, no, OK. Good to know guy, just checking.
46:02
It's wonderful. Her monologue about like, yeah,
46:05
why she is who she is is fabulous.
46:08
I've always known I was born to dominate your sex and avenge my
46:13
own. When they have their
46:14
confrontation and she says war, Oh my God.
46:19
All right, war again. Something shifted in the
46:27
culture. I'd say do.
46:29
You know what? I think there were moments where
46:31
she was doing too much. Fine.
46:32
For example, she gets her big feminist speech and she's got a
46:36
line that is something like, well, I'll tell you exactly what
46:39
the line is. When I came out in society, I
46:42
was 15, I already knew that the role that I was condemned to,
46:45
namely to keep quiet and do what I was told, gave me the perfect
46:48
opportunity to listen and learn not to what people told me,
46:51
which naturally was of no interest, but to what it was
46:53
they were trying to hide. And the way she plays it is, it
46:58
gave me the perfect opportunity to listen and learn not to what
47:02
people told me, which naturally was of no interest, but rather
47:06
to what they were trying to hide.
47:07
I felt she cringed a bit when she did that.
47:09
OK, yeah, actually I'm not sure if I cringed, but yeah, it
47:14
didn't work. Yeah, I thought that.
47:15
And there weren't moments like that.
47:17
Whereas Sarah Michella, Sarah Michella she she risked less,
47:24
but she, she felt less. It was, you know, everything she
47:29
tried to do, she hit. So I don't know.
47:31
Swings and roundabouts. Well, which witch's camper to go
47:35
hard and fail? All right, fuck you, Sarah.
47:40
Do more. She does grind on him as someone
47:45
said Sunnyside up. So nice Which?
47:51
Is so fabulous. Yeah, she's really going to
47:55
town. Work that back.
48:00
It's really nice. Yeah, OK.
48:04
So should we do John and Ryan? Oh, we've already done John and.
48:07
Ryan yeah, we're yeah, that's enough time for the men.
48:09
Yeah. Selma Blair and and Uma.
48:13
Yeah. I hated Selma Blair on this
48:18
rewatch. Did.
48:19
You. Not stand it.
48:21
Because she's playing a baby. Because she's playing a baby and
48:23
it's just so annoying. And I know it's meant to be kind
48:27
of funny and sometimes I guess it is kind of funny, but for the
48:31
most part, I was like, this is just so irritating.
48:34
It's like watching someone do baby improv.
48:37
You know you're a baby. I'm so glad I've never had to
48:43
experience one. Do baby improv.
48:45
Do you know what You're right, she's doing.
48:48
She's doing a lot of only one thing, which is play about 6
48:52
years old, which is kind of a weird choice.
48:54
Yeah, which which kind of makes it all weirder, but also in a
48:58
way less weird because at least she can be petulant, which is
49:02
not quite agency, but it's something.
49:06
True. Whereas Uma has nothing.
49:07
She's got nothing. It is a nothing role.
49:09
It's a nothing role and she does nothing with it.
49:11
She does nothing with it, it's true.
49:13
And that poor character. I think she ends up back in a
49:15
convent. She gets really fucking trashed
49:19
in this movie. Like for no real reason.
49:23
But that is what happens in the book.
49:24
To be fair, Dangerous Liaisons is like a pretty faithful return
49:29
of the book, right? So the darkest scenes in both
49:33
are if you're being kind, the seduction, if you're being
49:36
unkind, the rape of Cecile. And they try and soften it in
49:42
Cruel Intentions by having her having Summer Blair's character
49:47
get really into it. It's so weird that the
49:51
difference in telling is not actually about the difference
49:54
between 1760 and 1999. It's the difference between 1989
50:00
and 1999. It's crazy.
50:02
And then again, looking at it from this perspective, 20 years
50:05
after that, it's like, wow, she's changed.
50:08
Yeah. Right, kind of can't be bothered
50:11
to talk about Annette slash Torvell because it's it's also a
50:13
bit of a nothing character unless there's anything you
50:16
specifically want to say. No, but casting wise, quite fun
50:21
that they wanted Katie Holmes, the good intentions.
50:24
But Ryan Philippe was like, could you possibly have my
50:27
girlfriend instead? And so they got Reese
50:31
Witherspoon in and then she said no.
50:34
And Cumble, what's his first name?
50:38
Roger. Roger Kumble.
50:40
He was his first film. And he planned to make the whole
50:42
thing on like a £1 million budget.
50:44
She said no, and he apparently in like, took her for a drink or
50:48
whatever and got on his knees and begged her to do it.
50:50
Oh, wow. And she was like, well, OK, I'll
50:52
rewrite it. Yeah, I'm glad it got a bit of
50:55
love and attention, that character, because Michelle
50:58
Pfeiffer's character is just hard to watch.
51:00
She got a BAFTA. Wow.
51:02
She got BAFTA for best supporting actress.
51:04
I'm not saying she's necessarily bad in the movie, I'm saying the
51:07
character is just criminally underwritten.
51:11
I'm. Just not sure it's a part that
51:12
you can have a BAFTA. Full I kind of agree.
51:15
Just, you know, No, no, no, no, I'm just, I'm just a delicate
51:19
damsel. Not here.
51:21
Yeah, in 1989 you get a BAFTA. But that damsel stuff work is
51:25
puerile and under dramatized. How about the gay stuff?
51:29
So we've got the lesbian kiss. Which is phenomenal high point
51:33
of the movie. I think it holds up.
51:34
That bit of spittle, iconic at the time.
51:39
You've got Sarah Michelle Gellar in her all black Audrey Hepburn
51:45
bug eyed specs and little slinky number Selma Blair in her preppy
51:51
Manhattan jumper type vibe in a sort of light blue.
51:54
They're opposites where they come to get on the chemistry.
51:58
Gorgeous. Yeah, it's great.
52:00
I wish there had been more tones of lesbianism to Sarah
52:04
Michelle's characters, Sarah Michelle characters, Gellar,
52:09
because it is a bit like, why is this happening?
52:13
But you know, it was. I know why it happened in the
52:16
movie because it needed, it was titillating for male audiences.
52:22
And it's just about pushing the envelope and it's like trying to
52:25
see what they can get away with. It'd be cool if you're like,
52:28
maybe she's like, maybe her repressed lesbianism is the
52:34
reason she's like this. It'll be fun to just add in a
52:37
suggestion, wouldn't it? Or just like make her more
52:40
explicitly by in some other regard in the movie, but because
52:44
it just kind of comes out of nowhere.
52:46
Yeah, it does. I also think that the really
52:50
intense homophobia is, I mean, actually really just quite oak
52:56
standard for 1999, I think, but maybe not quite in keeping with
53:01
the level of sophistication, which we've already said is
53:03
really artificial for those characters.
53:05
But they're just so worldly and sophisticated that like the fact
53:10
that he has a journal and she says, could you be more queer
53:15
like, well, I think you she probably wouldn't think that.
53:19
Do you think the movie is homophobic or is it painting the
53:24
characters to be homophobic and therefore problematic because in
53:27
this? No, the movie's gay.
53:30
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
53:32
Ryan's character is kind of cool with gay people, but he's like,
53:37
he uses that as another, like, lever towards his own advantage.
53:42
But he's got a gay friend and he doesn't.
53:43
He's not at all judgmental about him being gay.
53:47
He just knows that like they can use it to manipulate the closet
53:50
case. You're right.
53:52
He's not. Sarah, a little bit more judgy
53:55
about the gays. Yeah.
53:56
Ryan bit more down with things, which is not how you would
53:59
expect things to go gender wise. Yeah.
54:02
So, yeah. But I would have Roger Cumble
54:04
because he wrote it as well. Is he?
54:05
Is he a gay? I don't think he's gay.
54:07
Because it gives Big gay. Yeah, you're right, it does.
54:10
I've watched some like behind the scenes interviews and stuff.
54:13
He's not giving gay. OK, so we find out.
54:16
Interesting. I think it kind of matters
54:19
actually. Apparently, he was originally
54:21
planning to just make it as a little B movie for like less
54:24
than a million. And then it just sort of picked
54:27
up some interest when a producer, the producer of I Know
54:32
What You Did Last Summer, who had just worked with Sarah
54:35
Michelle Gellar and Ryan Philippe, sort of introduced
54:39
them. And suddenly it was like, OK,
54:41
this is going to be a way bigger thing, but still not big budget
54:45
10 million. Yeah, no small.
54:47
And a million of that went on. Bittersweet Symphony isn't that
54:52
crazy? Yeah, he's not gay, by the way.
54:55
He's not gay. Not gay.
54:56
Oh, you mean the Gays Not the Gays soundtrack?
55:01
Oh, just unspeakably cruel intentions when stunning from
55:06
the like the original compositions that just does that
55:09
really joyful, silly tension, plunky, plunky stuff.
55:14
And then the big hitting numbers, the like.
55:17
I would never have thought that you should pay £1,000,000 for
55:19
Bittersweet Symphony, but it's the perfect song.
55:22
Yeah, I guess it was probably already a hit.
55:24
But like that, they also owe so much to this movie.
55:28
It's just like it was a hit. Then but it wouldn't have
55:30
survived till now, no. They've cashed out on that, got
55:34
a million for it as well. Yeah, I mean, Placebo, Skunk and
55:38
Nancy. It's just like a high point of
55:41
sexy 90s. That super melodramatic Counting
55:44
Crows song. Colour blind Oh.
55:48
Oh for the the emotional crooks where they're separated.
55:52
Oh. I was giggling.
55:55
It was just such teen melodrama. That's.
55:57
Not it's like it's like watching just a really elevated version
56:00
of one of those teen dramas like The OC.
56:03
It's so the OC. It's very also post Scream with
56:06
the like the overwrought dialogue.
56:11
Dawson's Creek like teens. They don't sound like that and
56:15
aren't 25 but. That, but good jokes, yeah.
56:19
Really good jokes throughout. Yeah.
56:22
Doctor King is my favorite. Christine Baranski saying I took
56:29
you in off the streets and he's like, I live at Easton 49.
56:34
Yeah, you can put it anywhere. It's just, it's so quotable.
56:38
It's a film, it really is Factors.
56:41
Maybe it's time to just say it. But yeah, Dangerous Liaisons,
56:44
I'm sorry, but I got bored. It was boring.
56:48
I got bored and and I there's no real excuse for that when you've
56:53
got a lot of really fab women being bad.
56:58
And the writing wasn't beautiful.
57:00
Like, of course the Rising is not going to be quippy and short
57:03
and snappy and witty and quite in the same Cruel Intentions
57:06
way, but it can be droll and witty and erudite and, you know,
57:14
funny and amusing and beautiful imagery in the way that I think
57:20
I've read some of the book. And to be fair, the book, it
57:23
kind of isn't, right. It's not that beautiful.
57:26
You would have to get to write that.
57:28
But, you know, we need some sort of Jane Austen witty repartee.
57:33
Yeah. We don't really have it.
57:35
And yet boring, like getting bored is just such a cardinal
57:38
sin. And I I I.
57:39
It's the opposite of camp. Yeah, I and I think for all of
57:43
Cruel Intentions, kind of I'd say the the stuff that doesn't
57:46
hold up, that's a bit problematic.
57:48
You're not bored watching it. You are not.
57:50
Bored. It goes down easy.
57:52
Yeah, for a movie that's about sex and sex games.
57:56
Dangerous Liaisons. It's not sexy enough.
57:59
It's. Not sexy.
58:00
It's not sexy and you can't even blame the corsets because those
58:03
come off unnecessarily. You don't need boobs to come out
58:07
for it to be sexy. You can have so much sexiness in
58:09
corsets. Yeah, cruel attention is just
58:12
it's much hornier and it's sexier.
58:14
It's so sexy. You know, she gives him blue
58:18
balls, which is very, very sexy. It's yeah, yeah.
58:25
It's, it's disappointing interesting little titbits about
58:30
the production of Dangerous Liaisons.
58:32
They they kind of like it all moved so quickly and other
58:36
people were ousted because Jane Fonda was trying to buy the
58:39
rights and she would have played Glenn Close, bought Glenn Close
58:45
was due to replace Lindsay Duncan in the play version of
58:48
it. But then the play closed.
58:49
But because she already then had an in with Christopher Hampton,
58:52
who wrote the play and was then to write the the film, she was
58:57
kind of a shoo in. So Jane Fonda for all of her
59:00
money that she was putting into it, was asked to it.
59:04
How do you think Jane Fonda would have been great?
59:06
It would have been such a different movie, it's hard to
59:10
picture her as an icy bitch. She'd have done sexy so well.
59:15
Sure. Would she have done icy?
59:18
I bet she could have done icy. I'd love to see it.
59:21
Yeah, I'd love to see it, yeah. It's one of those roles you kind
59:24
of look like. I'd like to see anyone do that.
59:26
It's like how I feel about Catwoman.
59:28
Yeah, it's. Just a great.
59:28
Role yeah, let them let anyone have a go out like let let 1000
59:33
flowers bloom. Yeah, yeah, I want every major
59:38
actress to have a go at this particular role.
59:41
At least I I don't want to watch this movie again, so have a go
59:44
at maybe the main speech. Yeah, or two and then or.
59:48
Let's have another remake. It's time.
59:50
It can be in space. I'm in costume.
59:53
Compare the 2. Yeah, it's apples and oranges,
59:56
and they're both, they're, they're fat, they're both
59:57
fabulous. They're kind of incomparable.
1:00:01
The it's just, what do you want to look at?
1:00:04
But if you're a costume geek, I mean, you can't beat Dangerous
1:00:08
Liaisons. It won the Oscar for it, totally
1:00:10
justifiably. I'm going to just say it.
1:00:12
It's beautiful gowns. Great gowns, beautiful gowns.
1:00:17
The jewellery as well, like the hair, the everything, it's
1:00:19
exquisite. And that opening scene, which is
1:00:24
arguably the best scene in it, where it's just them being
1:00:28
gotten up in their toilet, Glenn Close looking in the mirror, and
1:00:32
she looks in the mirror with such a pride that I think I've
1:00:36
only ever seen once before. And it was at Wilderness
1:00:40
Festival when you were doing your face and you did an
1:00:45
admittedly exquisite face in like 30 minutes or something.
1:00:49
And then as you'd completed it, you just said I'm really good at
1:00:53
drag. And I haven't seen that since
1:00:56
until I watched Glenn Close in that mirror.
1:00:58
Somebody lied to her several times.
1:01:04
I've I've got a habit of doing and saying that.
1:01:06
There's that common thing, and that's really fun.
1:01:08
You're not the first person. Who's That's really fun, but.
1:01:12
There's just something that takes over and like, you know
1:01:14
what? You're going to spend a bunch of
1:01:16
time making yourself look a certain way.
1:01:18
You might as well enjoy the result.
1:01:20
When those lashes go on, you feel things.
1:01:22
You do. And told her that she was fly
1:01:25
hot and sexy. You feel like Glenn Close and
1:01:27
you're about to swoop down and snatch up a little baby bird.
1:01:31
And what is it? When a woman strikes another
1:01:36
woman? She rarely misses, and it's
1:01:38
invariably fatal. Yeah, that opening scene is it's
1:01:43
just gorgeous. And the every single gown in
1:01:46
that movie looks like it took weeks and there's I kept looking
1:01:50
at the earrings. It's like God, beautiful
1:01:53
jewelry. I read a sort of a costume EA do
1:01:57
like a critique of it and yeah, everything was like really on
1:02:01
point historically, except that they'd chosen to go 1760s
1:02:06
instead of 1780s and 90s when the book was actually released
1:02:10
and set because 1780s and 90s was the sort of big encroyable
1:02:15
look of like Marie and Antoinette.
1:02:18
They all have had like big sort of ships in their hair.
1:02:20
OK. And like.
1:02:22
It's way too much. Yeah, it would have been hard to
1:02:24
have the close-ups right of her in a.
1:02:28
It. Would have been a different
1:02:32
vibe. Right, like when the pennies got
1:02:34
so big that no one could get through a door.
1:02:37
Exactly. We need to see faces, yeah.
1:02:40
Fair. And then Cruel Intentions.
1:02:44
Yeah, it's just nailing late 90s cool, isn't it?
1:02:48
Yeah, it looks great. Yeah, just like Upper East Side
1:02:52
of expensive fitted dark, a lot of Prada with some, you know,
1:02:59
preppy jumpers and what have you.
1:03:01
But the main 2 are mostly like Sarah Michelle Gellar in that
1:03:05
bustier and then the fitted Prada suit.
1:03:08
It's hot. It's great and she's also got a
1:03:10
really gorgeous like blue metallic miniskirt at one point
1:03:15
with like a sheer top. That's so 90, it's so good.
1:03:18
Metallic miniskirt so 90s so great.
1:03:21
Can't be beat. Nice dress.
1:03:23
Thanks, it's a Versace. My like overall thoughts which I
1:03:28
had written down was that and I'm not sure I even I'm not sure
1:03:31
I agree with this anymore now that we've talked about it a bit
1:03:34
more, but that Dangerous Liaisons is a better movie but
1:03:37
Cruel Intentions is a funner movie.
1:03:40
Nope. No evident.
1:03:41
Yeah, Dangerous Liaisons is boring.
1:03:45
Maybe I'm just being contrary because it got 7 Oscar
1:03:47
nominations and it's seen definitively as just a great
1:03:51
movie. Do you think, though, if you
1:03:52
were just like a normal adult who did not see Cruel Intentions
1:03:56
as a teen, yeah, you would watch it.
1:03:58
And I think that's a good movie. I would say I don't have access
1:04:01
to that because I loved it and it was a sexual awakening.
1:04:06
I think you'd have to be like this is stupid because it is.
1:04:09
Stupid. The thing is, my memory is so
1:04:11
bad that every experience I have I come out entirely fresh.
1:04:16
So I watched this movie having not watched it for a while,
1:04:19
being like Oh my God I cannot believe how good this is.
1:04:22
And maybe there is the joy of it unlocking memories.
1:04:26
Obviously I get that, but I don't.
1:04:28
No, I think it's good. I think it's a good script.
1:04:30
What about all that fucking melodrama like his redemption
1:04:34
storyline, him walking around the streets to fucking Counting
1:04:38
Crows like beating his chest. It's dumb.
1:04:43
OK, it's dumb. It's.
1:04:46
Dumb. But then also, maybe I love a
1:04:49
bit of melodrama. I really enjoy it when she comes
1:04:51
up the escalator from the subway and he's at the top and it's
1:04:56
like, how did he got the train walk faster than the train?
1:05:01
But I enjoy it. I'd like a bit of melodrama to
1:05:05
an exquisite soundtrack. What can I say?
1:05:08
I'm not saying it's bad, I think it's a great example of of a
1:05:12
teen movie, but like I think some of it is very teen movie.
1:05:18
Right. OK.
1:05:19
Are you suggesting that I have to accept that some of my tastes
1:05:23
may be a little bit low? Brown, you're not young.
1:05:28
Should we do Lizers and Merrills?
1:05:29
Let's do it. OK, so Merrills, what are you
1:05:33
going to give to dangerous? I think I'm going to give it
1:05:36
six, yeah, maybe 7. Yeah, I am.
1:05:44
No, I, I deserve to have fun. No one's fun anymore.
1:05:52
I'm giving it 5. Whatever happened to fun?
1:05:56
OK, what about cruel intentions for Merrill's?
1:06:00
People in the present are just better than people in the past.
1:06:03
And the present is 1999. We are.
1:06:05
That's where we are now. So Merrill's I can't hate.
1:06:16
What's going on? This is the last time you'll see
1:06:21
me. I'm giving it 5.
1:06:24
Wow. OK.
1:06:25
All right. You went low because I went
1:06:27
high. No, no, I was going to give it a
1:06:29
5. It's like, it's like wild
1:06:32
things. Right, but it's the sexiest teen
1:06:35
movie. I don't know, Wild Things is
1:06:37
pretty sexy. OK this is what I have to just
1:06:39
add me. I haven't seen Wild.
1:06:41
Things, but it's I'll. Put it on my list.
1:06:43
It's trash but like entertaining.
1:06:47
It is trash but unfortunately I don't fuck losers.
1:06:53
OK, let's talk about Liza's. So how camp are these movies
1:06:58
starting with Dangerous Liaisons?
1:06:59
It's got some camp highlights. Yes, I think actually Michelle
1:07:03
Pfeiffer dying at the end is quite camp.
1:07:07
And I love the ending of like Glenn smashing up the and the
1:07:11
mirror and the and the her her ruin is super camp to me.
1:07:17
But I'd say overall, it's not the campus movie and I'm going
1:07:21
to give it a four. Yeah, I was thinking 4 as well.
1:07:24
That's so upsetting. Yeah, OK.
1:07:27
We're agreed. OK, cruel intentions.
1:07:29
A little bit camper. Much camper, it's not my campus.
1:07:32
No, because it doesn't have any unintentional camp.
1:07:36
It's not big crazy swings. It's not weird.
1:07:39
Yeah, there is some queer joy also quite a lot of straight
1:07:43
joy. Like it's, it's doing what it's
1:07:45
trying to do and it's doing it in a mainstream way.
1:07:47
But it is. It's genuinely funny, genuinely
1:07:50
sexy. Yeah, it's not it's there's no
1:07:53
underdog flop, is there? We're not reclaiming something
1:07:56
here. So I don't think I I want to,
1:07:59
but I don't think I can go more than six.
1:08:01
Right. I think I'm going to go 6.
1:08:03
I agree. Yeah, I agree.
1:08:05
OK, good. So I've I've gone rogue on the
1:08:08
Merrills, but at least we've found common ground.
1:08:13
Taste is subjective, but camp isn't.
1:08:16
OK, yeah, I like that. Camp is absolute and we are the
1:08:20
arbiters. Right here.
1:08:23
But that does mean that congratulations, Cruel
1:08:26
Intentions. You are camper.
1:08:28
You've you've won this round. Jesus loves winners and also in
1:08:33
terms of legacy, it's sort of has it had like multiple spin
1:08:38
offs. You don't mean no one's seen
1:08:39
them. Why would you?
1:08:40
But it's had a cruel intentions too.
1:08:42
It's had he's had ATV show that got aborted and.
1:08:49
Then another one. Now he's had one that didn't get
1:08:51
aborted that apparently is terrible.
1:08:53
I think it got cancelled after one season.
1:08:55
OK. Have you seen any of it?
1:08:56
No. OK, I should watch a little bit.
1:08:58
I'm curious. I've heard it's awful.
1:09:00
Yeah, which? Sounds like no redeeming
1:09:02
features, right? He's had a stage musical.
1:09:05
I think that's it. Yeah, that's a lot.
1:09:07
That's a lot. I mean, arguably it's all Delay
1:09:11
Liaison Dangerous's legacy. They were all from in that
1:09:15
lineage, but I think Cruel Intentions is the one that like
1:09:18
planted its flag and everything else since it's been a reference
1:09:22
to that media. Although I don't know whether
1:09:25
you can quite make such a bold claim to about a film that's
1:09:29
survived A miraculous 25 years when the dangerous but Liaison
1:09:35
Dangerous has survived like, what, 250?
1:09:39
It's doing all right. It's doing pretty good.
1:09:41
All right, Well done. Something Lacrosse, whatever
1:09:44
your name is, Mr. Lacrosse. Thanks for being here, Sue.
1:09:47
Thank you so much for having me in this grand gorgeous studio.
1:09:51
What luxury? Yeah, we're off now to film our
1:09:55
porn parody of Cruel Intentions. Here we go.
1:09:59
Here we go. We got this.
1:10:01
Drool. Penetrations.
1:10:05
OK, we've got it. We've got it, Yeah.
1:10:09
Bye. Get away from her.
1:10:11
You. Bitch.
1:10:13
Classic. He was in the Amazon in final
1:10:16
when she was researching spiders right before she died, no?
1:10:23
Hannah thought you've got a prostitute or don't get it.