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Why Indie Podcasts Are Growing While Top Shows Stall · Your Mic

• 0:00
  Joe Rogan and Mel Robbins.
• 0:03
  Same names, top of the charts for years.
• 0:05
  The list barely moves.
• 0:08
  So who is growing?
• 0:10
  According to my guest, it's the little guys, the indies, the weirdos with a mic and a niche.
• 0:15
  Frank flew in from New Jersey all the way to Houston, Texas to tell a room full of podcasters the truth.
• 0:21
  Your CPM will not make you rich.
• 0:25
  Video panic is mostly overreacting, and the money in podcasting might be in a graveyard in Sleepy Hollow.
• 0:33
  Frank writes about independent podcasts for Forbes magazine and runs the Earworthy newsletter.
• 0:39
  I asked him one question that I think should get you really thinking.
• 0:45
  What do indie creators stop copying?
• 0:48
  And I asked him one question that ought to get you thinking about your podcast.
• 0:53
  What should indie creators stop copying from celebrity shows?
• 0:58
  This is your mic, live from Illuminate, and nobody was told to be quiet.
• 1:09
  This is your mic, live from Illuminate.
• 1:13
  Thank you so much for making the time to fly all the way from New Jersey to Texas.
• 1:18
  Loved it out here.
• 1:19
  It's been beautiful.
• 1:20
  Yeah.
• 1:21
  So we're going to talk about what makes somebody Forbes worthy.
• 1:26
  You cover nothing but indie podcasts.
• 1:29
  And I'd like to begin with what makes, what draws you to independent podcasts over big names like the Joe Rogans and the Mel Robbins of the world.
• 1:39
  Yeah.
• 1:40
  Oh, that's a great question, Freddie.
• 1:41
  First of all, thanks for having me.
• 1:43
  But secondly, this leads right into one of the things I was going to talk about is that if anybody looks, does anybody look at the pod track ratings on a regular basis and see the top 10 or 20 podcasts?
• 1:58
  You could go to PodTrack, which doesn't have a K at the end, and just sign up for it, and they'll send it to you.
• 2:05
  And one of the things I was going to say, and if you look at it, it's kind of interesting, it will show you pretty much the same podcast
• 2:13
  Week in.
• 2:14
  Oh, you're smiling.
• 2:15
  You know, week in and week out.
• 2:17
  And actually, there was a terrific article done, I think, by Ryb Walsh for Captivate.
• 2:23
  What he said is that list of the top podcasts has been pretty static for actually a couple of years.
• 2:29
  So I think a question would be, maybe if somebody has the answer, why is that?
• 2:34
  Why is it that that list of the top 10 or 40 podcasts is pretty static?
• 2:40
  It's because there's a lot of big money behind there.
• 2:42
  Yeah, that's actually an interesting question.
• 2:44
  We could get into that because you have, the thing about being an indie podcaster more than a podcaster for Spotify or for a large company is that you really are not direct to consumer.
• 2:56
  You seem like you are because you're recording and then it goes out there, but you have that intermediary.
• 3:12
  Three weeks ago, maybe?
• 3:13
  It's the amp accord, yeah.
• 3:15
  So it's now a view can be the moment you hit play.
• 3:19
  So if Frank hits play on a video and he pieces out after one second, that counts as a view.
• 3:26
  If Freddie hits that same video and it plays for longer than a frame, maybe I consume the entire 60 minutes.
• 3:32
  That's also...
• 3:33
  So now...
• 3:34
  We've got views where it can go from Frank's listening, viewing habit to Freddie's.
• 3:40
  And so what some of the larger ad media buyers are saying is like, okay, we're no longer buying on views.
• 3:47
  We're now buying on an engaged views.
• 3:50
  in your YouTube studio.
• 3:51
  Exactly.
• 3:52
  Uh, which is, which is, I think, um, which is why I think the, the CPM model sucks to begin with.
• 3:59
  Right.
• 3:59
  Because now it's, now you're, it's almost like that race to the bottom, um, sort of a thing.
• 4:06
  Cost per thousand.
• 4:07
  Yeah.
• 4:07
  Cost per thousand.
• 4:08
  So when you sell like a programmatic or a host read ad, they'll pay you based on the number of downloads that you have.
• 4:16
  And it'll be.
• 4:17
  So the genres are a little different, but I'm going to go with history.
• 4:21
  Genre is like $28 for a 30-second ad.
• 4:25
  Add.
• 4:25
  So this is what Victoria was just saying.
• 4:28
  So if you have a podcast, and I've listened to podcasts I love that I know don't have a large audience, and they're doing a CPM model, and they're doing two 30-second, let's say they do a pre-roll, two mid-rolls, and a post-roll commercial, four commercials, they may make hard.
• 4:46
  $100 an episode, that's not nothing, but that's not a lot of money, and you're not going to get rich like Victoria said.
• 4:53
  You're not going to ever get rich doing that.
• 4:56
  Even if you had even five times that many, there's a gentleman who does the Heavyweight Podcast, and he did a study and showed that in order for him to,
• 5:08
  to make a living doing nothing but podcasting, the minimum number of downloads he needs, minimum, is 50,000.
• 5:16
  In order to hire somebody to work for him so it's not a one-person operation, 100,000.
• 5:24
  So based on what Victoria just told us about the number of downloads, what percentage is even more than just a few, that's almost an impossible number.
• 5:34
  Per episode?
• 5:35
  Per episode.
• 5:36
  Per episode.
• 5:36
  Per episode.
• 5:37
  But that's just downloads, not even engagement.
• 5:39
  So we're not even talking about, we're only talking specifically about downloads on one platform.
• 5:48
  Spotify will count it as streams.
• 5:49
  Apple says it's play.
• 5:51
  So if you get into each platform's dashboard, you see it's Apple play, Spotify streams, YouTube views.
• 6:00
  So that's not even counting completion.
• 6:02
  It's not counting your engaged downloads, your engaged views, so on and so forth.
• 6:08
  So according to the Amp Accords, which you can look that up, they just, it's a collaborative between all the major platforms.
• 6:17
  And they all agreed that a download, a podcast download, correct me if I'm wrong, a podcast download is now 30 seconds.
• 6:25
  That's like a verified download is minimum.
• 6:28
  Once across 30 seconds, it actually counts as a download.
• 6:32
  Got it.
• 6:32
  Yeah.
• 6:33
  And then YouTube views is a completely different animal.
• 6:36
  Right.
• 6:37
  And of course, the other thing about downloads is, and this is why it's so hard to measure that is, I'm not sure if anybody else here, everybody here have a podcast feed app on their phone at least.
• 6:48
  Yeah.
• 6:48
  And I do too.
• 6:49
  And I have 50 podcasts on my phone.
• 6:52
  I could download a show and I'm like, oh, I definitely want to listen to this.
• 6:56
  And it could take me three months to listen to it.
• 6:58
  And there's another problem with that is that so that you have the download and then three months later you have the listen.
• 7:06
  So going back to what Freddie said, as an independent podcaster, you don't have as much control sometimes that you think that you have.
• 7:14
  However, as we started this, I wanted to say that there's actually a lot of good news when it comes to being an independent podcaster right now.
• 7:22
  I think listening to Victoria...
• 7:25
  And her success story.
• 7:26
  And there are other people like Victoria out there with very similar success stories.
• 7:31
  There are really great opportunities.
• 7:34
  Because think about what's been going on.
• 7:36
  For the first 20 years of podcasting, the entire medium was low risk.
• 7:43
  and low reward.
• 7:45
  Low risk in the sense that if you started a podcast a few years ago and you did it all yourself, you're not spending a tremendous amount of money.
• 7:54
  You're not going to go bankrupt, hopefully, doing your podcast.
• 7:58
  Hopefully.
• 7:59
  But also the rewards were very low.
• 8:01
  Before video podcasting and just when audio was the only available medium, it was a struggle for independent people to really make any money from that.
• 8:14
  Now, that's changed, and the change is also good, but it's also very dangerous, too.
• 8:21
  But I want to say before I go further, because I had written this down, all of these people in the top 10, the Joe Rogans, the Mel Robbins, the Jay Sheetys, the Alex Coopers, the Kelsey's, the Pollers, the SmartList guys, all those guys, their numbers are high.
• 8:38
  They haven't increased in a couple of years.
• 8:40
  They're pretty much at the same plateau.
• 8:42
  Guess who has increased?
• 8:44
  Independent podcasters.
• 8:45
  I just want to read something.
• 8:47
  Actually, Victoria mentioned Listen Notes, and I do recommend it.
• 8:51
  She did.
• 8:52
  So Listen Notes said that 68% of newly launched podcasts fall into what's called a targeted, specialized, or niche podcast category.
• 9:03
  So that's...
• 9:05
  95% of independent podcasts are niche podcasts.
• 9:08
  They go on to say that downloads per episodes for niche shows are growing 41% faster than general interest podcasts.
• 9:17
  Even the ones that we all know, the Joe Rogans and the Mel Robbins.
• 9:21
  So those specialized podcasts have a great growth potential there.
• 9:26
  And it goes back to a lot of what Victoria said and what Vanessa's talked about earlier about ads and intent.
• 9:34
  In...
• 9:35
  the specialized shows like your shows, you have listeners, you have customers that have intent.
• 9:42
  They want to be involved and they want to be actionable in what you do.
• 9:46
  And so, for example, I'll read something here from Listen Notes, and it says, small focused audiences build stronger loyalty than massive passive follower counts.
• 10:00
  I mean, I'm sure that you've met people and you said, they say, what do you do?
• 10:06
  And you say, oh, I'm a podcast.
• 10:08
  And a lot of times I'll get this too.
• 10:10
  They'll go, oh, yeah, listen to Joe Rogan.
• 10:12
  I get that a lot because he's very popular.
• 10:15
  Yeah, and that's really great.
• 10:17
  But the thing is, is that he, his ads, if you listen to or watch his show, his ads are a lot of general interest.
• 10:25
  Besides him selling lion's mane or leopard's toe or something like that for your brand, he tends to do those things, his own brand or whatever.
• 10:33
  You know, those shows are so general interest.
• 10:36
  They don't generate the following, the intense following that independent podcasts have.
• 10:42
  There's a show.
• 10:46
  done by two women, Monique and Amy.
• 10:48
  And it's called, and I don't want to curse, their shows doesn't, but it's called Another F'n Horror Podcast.
• 10:56
  It is a podcast that's comedy, is horror, and it's true crime, all put together.
• 11:03
  So they've done something significant.
• 11:05
  As a matter of fact, we're doing an article in Forbes about the success of podcasts that tend to...
• 11:13
  conglomerate genres.
• 11:15
  I was going to say that that's like three very broad things, but then combining them into, and then using their own unique perspective as comedians, probably exactly to talk about it.
• 11:26
  Yep.
• 11:26
  Yeah, exactly.
• 11:27
  So with, with their case, you know, they wanted to go beyond just doing a horror podcast.
• 11:33
  So one of the things they did is they're from New York.
• 11:36
  So I went to this a couple of years ago, they hosted an entire weekend, uh,
• 11:42
  for people in Sleepy Hollow.
• 11:45
  Everybody know the Washington Irving story of the Headless Horseman in Sleepy Hollow.
• 11:49
  So there they have some great cemeteries.
• 11:52
  They set an entire weekend.
• 11:55
  You could get a hotel through them.
• 11:57
  We did this great tour of the Sleepy Hollow cemetery.
• 12:01
  They had like a dinner and other events.
• 12:03
  And when I interviewed them for an article on Earworthy, they said that
• 12:08
  That event there made more money for them than anything they'll do for the rest of the year.
• 12:14
  They just did one in New Orleans last year, and they're planning on doing another one right here.
• 12:21
  And so their merch took off when they started to do these live shows because...
• 12:26
  You know, once you get people and you're in front of them personally, there's that bigger connection there.
• 12:32
  So there's just a good example of how they were able to monetize their podcast.
• 12:36
  And you would think, oh, how would they do that?
• 12:38
  And they've been very successful at that.
• 12:40
  They have very loyal followers.
• 12:43
  I want to do a subject change, if you don't mind, Frank.
• 12:45
  Go ahead.
• 12:46
  Because you cover a lot of independent podcasts, and many of them would be audio only.
• 12:51
  And now with YouTube and the importance of kind of being omnipresent, and so many independent podcast hosts have their own business and in many cases might be in a solopreneur type of a situation.
• 13:06
  So where John Doe's podcast was audio only,
• 13:11
  solo and he's riffing on his own.
• 13:14
  Now video comes out and there's this ACAST study that came out that says that a lot of people are discovering podcasts via short form video and or YouTube.
• 13:24
  And now John Doe has got to up his game because now he's got to buy the video camera and start singing the audio with the video.
• 13:29
  And then does he need...
• 13:31
  Does he even need like a fancy video editing?
• 13:34
  Where does audio come into play his own audience, et cetera, et cetera.
• 13:38
  And if we're talking about clips, does he need to be on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on Facebook or on Tik TOK or all of the above?
• 13:45
  And so what do you, as someone who covers all these shows, what do you see?
• 13:48
  Um, how do you see the independent podcast community reacting to things like this?
• 13:57
  That's a great question.
• 13:58
  And the first question,
• 13:59
  One word answer I have for that, which I'll expand upon, is overreacting.
• 14:03
  So you have plenty of people with a terrific audio podcast and feeling like they're being pushed into video.
• 14:11
  And when you say terrific, what do you mean by terrific?
• 14:13
  Like just content-wise or successful, whatever that means to them, and great content?
• 14:19
  Both.
• 14:19
  It could be both.
• 14:20
  Sometimes it's just content-wise.
• 14:22
  Gotcha, gotcha.
• 14:23
  Because, let's face it, independent podcasters have the best content.
• 14:26
  Absolutely.
• 14:28
  And that's all I listen to every day.
• 14:30
  And I'm not missing anything by not listening to any of these other people.
• 14:35
  But there's a lot of people overreacting, thinking that they have to be on YouTube.
• 14:39
  Well, they actually could do HLS video or they could be on Spotify.
• 14:44
  But for a lot of them, they want to be on YouTube.
• 14:46
  And so they start creating a video podcast when they necessarily don't have to.
• 14:52
  I've seen...
• 14:53
  I've seen plenty of independent podcasters.
• 14:56
  I listened to their shows for years, and they started a video podcast.
• 15:00
  There's nothing wrong with it.
• 15:01
  There's an added expense to that for them.
• 15:03
  Yes.
• 15:04
  I'm not sure.
• 15:06
  Me, as a customer of theirs, I'm not gaining anything more by watching the video.
• 15:12
  And to be real honest, and this is backed up by a lot of numbers that Freddie knows, is...
• 15:17
  Even though there's people saying that they're watching a YouTube podcast, the numbers really show what they really mean is it's on.
• 15:27
  But I'm not listening to it.
• 15:28
  It's either minimized or I'm just listening to a video show.
• 15:33
  And that's a large number.
• 15:34
  When you take that number out, what you discover is less than half the people are.
• 15:40
  on a video podcast are actually watching it.
• 15:42
  They're just really listening.
• 15:43
  And then I'm not sure about anybody here.
• 15:45
  I mean, I, because I love podcasts, I'll listen to them all the time.
• 15:49
  But generally speaking, I'm always going to be doing something.
• 15:53
  I'm either going to be driving.
• 15:55
  I'm a gardener.
• 15:56
  I'm either going to garden.
• 15:57
  I walk every day.
• 15:59
  So I have activities built around that.
• 16:03
  these podcasts.
• 16:04
  And so I know that there are people that just watch a podcast and sit.
• 16:09
  I don't know who they are because I don't know about you, but I don't have loads of time during my day, and I'll bet everybody else doesn't either.
• 16:15
  So I'm not sure who's doing that.
• 16:17
  But to answer your question, I would say people are rushing in the video when they don't have to.
• 16:23
  Even people, for example, I know somebody has a history podcast, and they were so intent upon getting in.
• 16:30
  on audio video, what they did was they moved to YouTube and just played the audio on YouTube.
• 16:38
  And I went back to them and said, so how'd you do?
• 16:42
  They said, oh, I only got like seven streams on YouTube.
• 16:46
  He goes, I don't know what's going on.
• 16:47
  I said, well, you're just playing an audio podcast on YouTube.
• 16:52
  You know, where did you think you'd get a tremendous amount of value from that?
• 16:56
  Yeah.
• 16:57
  So he eventually just, he did it for like a month and he had like 15 views and they just went back to the audio again.
• 17:08
  I don't think he was gaining anything by doing that.
• 17:11
  One of the questions we got from the audience was, how do I turn short form video into a pipeline for my long form show?
• 17:17
  That's a good question.
• 17:18
  And I would go back to something both Victoria and Vanessa said when she talked about ads is what thinking about your podcast and its content, what.
• 17:28
  in the content is actionable for people.
• 17:31
  So what would you, what do you want?
• 17:32
  For example, I just listened to Victoria's wonderful presentation about her podcast.
• 17:38
  And, you know, it's a pretty, she could probably give us easily a one sentence answer to what do I want people to get out of her show?
• 17:47
  So then I would say you engineer a short and maybe not a clip from the actual long form video, but you engineer a standalone short or a series of shorts that point to that specific long form video.
• 18:02
  So you could say, we were talking before this that your sort of ideal client prospect will be a 35 to 40, 50 something year old female and.
• 18:16
  like perimenopausal menopausal, right?
• 18:19
  So it could be something like if you're tired of hot flashes and mood swings, and I know a little bit about menopause just because I keep a lot of...
• 18:31
  I keep a lot of female company.
• 18:35
  So I know about these side effects.
• 18:37
  But if you're tired of hot flashes, mood swings, and whatever, sleepless nights, then did you know that you can dot, dot, dot.
• 18:46
  But don't sell them on your product.
• 18:48
  Give them a solution that they can take right this very second.
• 18:53
  They're watching that video.
• 18:54
  They're like, oh my god, he's talking to me.
• 18:57
  And so you say, do this.
• 19:00
  If you have this, this, and this, do this.
• 19:04
  By the way, if you like more of this, tap the link below and I'll go into further detail.
• 19:13
  So if your solution is, I don't know, Lion's Mane.
• 19:17
  So if you're suffering from hot flashes and mood swings and whatever from menopause, did you know that Lion's Mane can help with ABC?
• 19:25
  All right, so you take your 30 seconds and then you go, to learn more about how Lion's Mane can help you in whatever, whatever, tap the link below, we get into further detail.
• 19:36
  And so it could be something like that.
• 19:38
  You can also clip.
• 19:41
  You can also take the clip from your long form.
• 19:44
  It may or may not work, but it doesn't help.
• 19:47
  It gets you more shots on goal.
• 19:49
  And, Doctor, one of the things I just want to read you something because from Listen Notes, I think this is appropriate here.
• 19:55
  It says that independent niche podcasts are built around clear problems.
• 20:00
  defined interests, and focused audiences.
• 20:03
  Each episode creates a context that shapes how the customer is thinking and what they're trying to do next.
• 20:12
  And I think that's really key, and I learned that from...
• 20:14
  listening to Victoria's presentation is, she's pretty clear on her audience and she knows what they want to do next and she's there to help them through those sponsorships.
• 20:25
  And so I think those are the kinds of things, if you do have an independent podcast, you want to be asking yourself.
• 20:32
  I think I said earlier that a lot of people start podcasts thinking, I love this particular topic and I think the audience will too, without doing the next step of saying,
• 20:43
  well, is there an audience for the content that I think that they'll like?
• 20:47
  And sometimes they jump in.
• 20:49
  Once they're in, they realize...
• 20:51
  Maybe not so.
• 20:52
  And the one example I want to give you is if there's, if you ever, anybody here listen to a movie review podcast, either older movies or there's, yes, okay.
• 21:04
  There's loads of them around.
• 21:05
  As a matter of fact, in the entertainment genre, they're probably number one when it comes to the number of podcasts about that topic.
• 21:13
  And the one reason for that is you don't have to be certified to review movies, right?
• 21:17
  Anybody could do it.
• 21:19
  But yet they're so crowded with the same people.
• 21:24
  It's all a different name.
• 21:26
  a different logo, but it's basically the same format.
• 21:30
  And there's a lot of people I've met in that particular genre, very frustrated because they can't break through, largely because it's very crowded on there.
• 21:38
  And as I say to them, well, what's the actionable part about being in a movie review podcast?
• 21:44
  What are somehow you're going to get movie money from Fandango or how are you going to do that?
• 21:49
  I mean, yeah.
• 21:50
  Even book review podcasts have the advantage over that, right?
• 21:53
  Because they're actually even more actionable, which is listen to the show and go buy this book.
• 22:00
  We had another one from the room, and this question was, how do genre mashup shows like horror comedy actually hold an audience?
• 22:09
  Well, that's a good question.
• 22:11
  The answer to that is I don't know, but I can tell you that audio dramas, although there are – actually, I have this here.
• 22:20
  They make up 7% of all audio podcasts, but they generate – just like we were talking, they generate a tremendously small but loyal following.
• 22:33
  Just think about that for a second.
• 22:34
  I listened to a podcast called American Afterlife done by a movie producer.
• 22:39
  He was one producer.
• 22:42
  He was part of it was one of those comets hitting the earth movies.
• 22:46
  I'm trying to think of the name.
• 22:48
  So anyway, he did an audio podcast, a drama about an apocalypse on Earth.
• 22:56
  And I interviewed him, and he said, and so I asked him how much the eight-episode audio drama cost.
• 23:02
  And he said it cost about $25,000 to do that.
• 23:06
  So he said, do you know how much it would cost if I did the movie version of exactly what I did?
• 23:13
  $175 million.
• 23:15
  And his point was that I may not recoup the 25.
• 23:20
  And he sent me a text saying things are getting better and I'm getting close.
• 23:24
  But the $175 million, I mean, that's one of the beauties of audio dramas is you can do some tremendous drama cheaply.
• 23:32
  Anybody know Play On or Next Chapter Podcasts?
• 23:36
  They do Shakespearean plays in modern English, and they're absolutely fantastic.
• 23:43
  I can be honest with you.
• 23:44
  I don't know that much about Shakespeare, but I'm like, all right, well, let me listen to this.
• 23:48
  It was absolutely fabulous.
• 23:50
  First, because I don't have any knowledge of old English, but secondly, it was just so easy to understand.
• 23:55
  I'm like, that's what Shakespeare means.
• 23:57
  What is the biggest thing indie creators should stop copying from celebrity or network-backed podcasts?
• 24:06
  That is a great question.
• 24:08
  You know what?
• 24:08
  That's such a good question.
• 24:09
  Anybody here have an answer for that before?
• 24:12
  Yeah, there you go.
• 24:13
  That's my small talk.
• 24:16
  Hey, how was the flight in?
• 24:17
  Was it good?
• 24:18
  Yeah.
• 24:18
  It was great.
• 24:19
  Yeah.
• 24:22
  There are a number of ways to get to the meat of your podcast episode.
• 24:25
  If you're doing an interview, it could be as simple as, hey, on this episode of Your Mic, we're going to be talking about the future of indie podcasting with Frank Rassiopi from Forbes Magazine.
• 24:35
  Frank, what is the biggest thing indie creators should stop copying from celebrity shows?
• 24:40
  And that was done in less than 20 seconds.
• 24:43
  Now, you can also produce movie trailer styles.
• 24:47
  This is probably something that a lot of guys who work in the production sphere kind of loathe.
• 24:54
  I am a little indifferent to it because we do this for some of our clients, and that's the diary of a CEO-type trailer at the beginning.
• 25:03
  It does it for—there are a number of different functions that it does because—
• 25:09
  you get the spoken key words at the very beginning.
• 25:14
  Plus, you're able to take key moments from the conversation and stuff it in the beginning.
• 25:20
  So it's like a movie trailer for 30 seconds.
• 25:23
  Stephen Bartlett does his for probably a good minute.
• 25:27
  Sometimes I think he's just showing off.
• 25:30
  And then it's a short pre-produced intro.
• 25:32
  And then the first question.
• 25:35
  It's not a three-page.
• 25:37
  So Frank Rassiopi wrote for Forbes magazine.
• 25:39
  He's a best-selling author of five novels.
• 25:41
  And he also writes for Earworthy.
• 25:44
  But then he also covers independent podcasts.
• 25:46
  Frank, tell me about your background.
• 25:49
  Yeah.
• 25:51
  No.
• 25:51
  Yeah.
• 25:52
  The one thing I'd say about the chatty, chatty stuff is that that can work well.
• 25:57
  The danger to that is that you listen to a podcast for the first time that's been on for three years.
• 26:02
  I just did this because that's what I do for a living.
• 26:05
  And they were talking about what they did last weekend.
• 26:08
  And the one gentleman said to the other gentleman is, you know, that didn't happen last weekend again, did it?
• 26:14
  And I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 26:16
  Yeah.
• 26:16
  And that went on for five minutes.
• 26:18
  I'm like, I'm out.
• 26:19
  I'm out from that.
• 26:20
  So you have to be really careful.
• 26:21
  The other thing I wanted to mention is that, and actually, she's not here.
• 26:26
  She was in the other room.
• 26:27
  But I listened to her podcast.
• 26:29
  And this goes back to what Freddie said.
• 26:31
  I love podcasts that, if it's an interview podcast, starts off, it plays a clip of the best part of the interview right away.
• 26:39
  Right away.
• 26:39
  Catches you right away.
• 26:40
  It's like that trailer.
• 26:42
  Then from there, they have, I'm a big fan of intro music.
• 26:49
  and you'd be surprised how much this doesn't happen and tells you the name of their podcast and what it is all about.
• 26:57
  There's so many podcasters that are like, all right, well, I've been doing this for two years.
• 27:02
  I don't have to do that anymore.
• 27:03
  You have to do that every time.
• 27:05
  Danny Brown from One Minute Podcast Tips always says, say the name of your podcast, not once, not twice, as many times as you can.
• 27:15
  I've got, so I've got a different take and it comes from, and it comes from my, my time in radio.
• 27:19
  Um, when time was literally money, um, you could not, if you only had 10 seconds and you had to talk about a Taylor Swift, uh, ticket giveaway and.
• 27:33
  you couldn't say the name of a radio station and the slogan and make it sound fun and interesting and say, listen at 225 because we're giving away a four-pack of tickets for Taylor Swift and you're qualifying for backstage and front row.
• 27:47
  Jeez, I just gave myself hives.
• 27:48
  You got to take care of all that in 10 seconds and make it sound fun?
• 27:51
  No.
• 27:52
  Sometimes you don't say the name of the radio station.
• 27:54
  that actually comes from the big corporate, that's like a corporate policy with one of the, it used to be a corporate policy with, I don't know because I haven't been in that world, but it used to be a policy like, hey, if you get to the station, cool.
• 28:07
  Also, one of the things that one of the morning show hosts that I used to work with, he goes,
• 28:12
  they already know what they're listening to because they see it on the freaking dial.
• 28:15
  He used a different word from freaking.
• 28:17
  They see it on the freaking dial.
• 28:19
  So we have clients that we work with who say the name of their show, and then we have sometimes where they don't.
• 28:27
  If the audience is choosing because they see them in the podcast app and maybe they haven't heard of the show, they see the podcast cover art, the cover art is doing its job.
• 28:38
  They click on the podcast and they hit play and maybe the host doesn't say the name or maybe it does.
• 28:44
  Cool.
• 28:45
  But I'm not so sure that saying the name of the podcast is...
• 28:52
  I'm not sure it works, but I'm also not sure it doesn't.
• 28:55
  Context.
• 28:56
  I think context more than anything matters, which is what your experience was with that one.
• 29:00
  Yes.
• 29:00
  Yeah, that show.
• 29:01
  Can I ask you something?
• 29:02
  Oh, please ask.
• 29:04
  Can you do your old radio voice?
• 29:07
  us this is freddy cruz come on do it one more time oh introduce frank your caller number 10 you just won ten thousand dollars april fools i know we are out of time but the one thing i would say was i thought kind of interesting i met the host there's a podcast called 20 000 hertz has anybody ever heard of oh okay it's really wonderful
• 29:29
  Dallas Taylor is the guy that does it.
• 29:32
  Anyway, I met him and discovered this is not the way he talks in real life.
• 29:38
  If you listen to the show, he's very deliberate.
• 29:40
  He has a very slow pace.
• 29:42
  And, of course, he's not that when you meet him in person.
• 29:44
  And when you meet a lot of podcasters, you discover they have both a podcast voice and then they just have their real everyday voice.
• 29:51
  And they're a little bit different.
• 29:53
  And, of course, they probably shouldn't.
• 29:55
  should be.
• 29:56
  You don't want to be not yourself and authentic, but on the other hand, I've listened to so many independent podcasts where people just start talking and there's no breath.
• 30:05
  There's no break.
• 30:06
  Sound like robots.
• 30:07
  Yes, exactly.
• 30:09
  We're done, aren't we?
• 30:10
  I'm sorry.
• 30:10
  Frank, thank you so much.
• 30:11
  Everybody, Frank Rassiobi from Forbes and Earworthy.
• 30:15
  Everybody will be in the article at least.