Latest / Just Listen To Me / The Relationship Pattern You Can't Escape
Transcript
- Julia Shay: Hi, I'm Julia and welcome back to Just Listen To Me. If love feels confusing or painful right now, you're not broken and neither is your relationship. Let's slow this down together. Have you ever felt like the same patterns keep showing up in your relationships, no matter who you're with? Like you're having different arguments, but somehow they feel exactly the same? Today's episode is a little different. If something in that conversation resonated with you, just take a moment to sit with that. Because often what gets stirred in these conversations isn't random. It's something your system recognizes, something familiar, something that's asking to be understood. And this is where Project Secure Attachment begins. Not by fixing the relationship, not by trying harder. Hello everyone, this is another Freedom to Feel conversation and my guest today is Julia Shea. She is an accredited social worker with over 15 years of experience, having worked in diverse settings such as nonprofit organizations and employee assistance programs. As an attachment-focused counselor, Julia has a deep understanding of core issues and childhood trauma, providing genuine engagement and presence to help I'm currently on the road, so I wanted to share a powerful conversation I had last year on the Fit for Joy podcast. It's about something that sits underneath so many of those patterns. The idea that our relationships are mirrors. Not in a blaming way, not in a this is your fault way, but in a way that reveals what's happening underneath. Our attachment history, our past wounds, but by gently turning towards what's underneath the pattern. The fear, the longing, the question that's often sitting there unspoken. Do I matter to you? Am I enough for you? And if you can start to notice those questions in yourself and in your partner, you're already beginning to shift the cycle. If you'd like support with this work, clients navigate challenges that affect all areas of their lives. So this is my brief introduction to you, Julia. Very briefly, the full bio will be at the end. The question that I always ask everyone when I meet them after the brief introduction, because of my, ⁓ it might be because of my curiosity, also my spiritual, ⁓ spiritual interest. So I always ask this question about identity. and the ways we've learnt to reach, protect or pull away to feel safe. Because when we don't understand that, it's so easy to believe the relationship itself is the problem. But when we see the pattern, something shifts, blame softens, defensiveness softens, and we move closer to secure attachment. This is the heart of Project Secure Attachment. you can find me at Flourish Relationship Counselling. And if this episode spoke to you, feel free to share it with someone who might need it too. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of each other. How would you introduce yourself? Who is Julia in this very moment? Well, that's a pretty awesome question. How would I identify myself? I think very spiritual person also. And I love the integration of the spiritual and the psychological to really make sense of our reality and problems we face as human beings. ⁓ not fixing each other but understanding the deeper emotional dance you're both caught in. So as you listen, just notice what resonates. Here's my conversation on the Fit for Joy podcast. And it's really amazing, I think, for meaning making, which I think is such an intrinsic part of being human. yeah, I think that's how I describe myself at present. Yes, beautiful. So we did talk briefly about spirituality, but not I didn't ask you about what is your view. Like, do you have what, how do you see yourself? the world at large, others, and this reality. Do you have a specific view, understanding of all this? Well, as a ⁓ couples counselor and relationship focused counselor, ⁓ I definitely feel very strongly that relationships are a very important part of our healing and transformation process. So, you know, I think that there is actually possibly a grand design as to why we tend to pair up in intimate partnerships, particularly romantic relationships, sometimes friendships and family relationships too. But I guess my focus is mostly on romantic connections. And I do think that it's within the dynamics of a romantic intimate partnership where so much is at stake and we're trying to a loving, secure connection with another human being. ⁓ that we can sort of find so much wisdom in the triggers that come up and the dynamics that play out with the other person. ⁓ And I really believe that it's a very sacred mirror, if you will, ⁓ to show us, you know, where our, ⁓ I guess our wounds are, where we sort of, you know, have areas that we may need to work on. And I guess ultimately it's about clearing all the blockages so we can be free to love and be loved. Yes. So true. And what a perfect environment you write to grow when it comes to transformation. You said that beautifully to the way you write. You said, I'll read this now. You say intimate partnerships are not just about love and companionship. They can be the sacred grounds for transformation, healing and deep inner evolution. That's true because then we, in a way, it's almost like we have, I wouldn't want to say, use the word forced, but we feel in a way more compelled to change, to grow, to kind of accommodate ⁓ that feeling or that concept, right, of what we call love. ⁓ How would you describe this or define even what love is? that's a very good question. ⁓ And I'm sure if you ask different people, they would probably give you a different answer. But I guess ⁓ for me, it goes beyond ⁓ the construct that I think most people are familiar with, which is romantic love. Yeah. That's one form of love. Yeah. But I think that there are so many more forms of love. It's so expansive. ⁓ I guess it's really hard to kind of put into language really. It's just a all expansive ⁓ sense of being connected to oneself and the cosmos and the collective and you just I think a core tenet really is self-love ⁓ which is again hard to describe but I think it's a lot to do with self-compassion, know, self-empathy, self- commitment, ⁓ confidence, all of those sort of things. So yeah, it's just an all expansive, beautiful, loving energy, so to speak. Yeah, it is. So it's something that I ask a lot of people. I used to ask that question a lot, like what is love? And then at the end I used to say, ask the question, ⁓ what's the purpose of the human experience? And that would come up a lot, love. And then... What three experiences would you, do you wish everyone to have before they die? And then I heard love comes up over and over and over and over again. It's very, I think within the human experience, yes, it might be the only reason really to evolve, right? To get to that point of love in the sense it would mean harmony, feeling connected to everything and everyone, interconnected. almost like you are part of me and part of me. There's no separation. We cannot separate because the ground is the same. The essence is one is the same. I think it has something to do with that. Do you do you feel like that this is where we are heading in a way when it comes to evolution to get to that? hope so. I think we are very slowly. I mean, I suspect like a lot of people have commented. since 2020, it's almost like we're going through a collective ⁓ human dark night of the soul. And that's an essential part of the process in order to actually break free of, I guess you would say the matrix or the way we've been sort of conditioned to view life, love and the universe and how we do things on this planet. And, know, in order to embrace new possibilities and truly go down that path, the old needs to, you know, the old needs to sort of break down and diminish first. Right. And I feel like we're in a collective process of that at the moment. And I think on a micro level, bringing it back to relationships for a minute, that's what's happening for a lot of people in their intimate relationships. You know, there's either I guess working on triggers and, ⁓ breaking old paradigms and breaking relational patterns, or perhaps there's a sense that maybe this, relationship, you know, isn't actually for my highest good. It isn't actually for my benefit and therefore the relationship starts to break down. Right. Which is obviously sad on a human level and can bring a lot of grief, but it's also. an essential part of the process, I think, you know, to move forward. Yes. Yeah. And your beautiful job is to make the transition easier. Right. Is that what how you see yourself in this? so. I think so. Yeah. mean, ultimately, it's about helping couples understand, you know, what is sort of a secure attachment, which is based on ⁓ attachment theory, attachment styles, which is more going into obviously the field of, you know, psychology and, ⁓ you know, that sort of thing. But I think that, you know, if you were talking about it in spiritual terms, absolutely. It's about looking at the self, you know, and, ⁓ helping each other grow in the best way possible. But first, you know, you have to go through the transformation. And our partner becomes our mirror and shows us, you know, I guess some of our less desirable traits and sides, but it's not done out of malice, you know, it's obviously there are examples where that might be the case, but I guess I'm talking about, you know, for most people, it's a beautiful opportunity. It's a mirror to really see yourself in all shades of gray, the good, the bad, the ugly, everything in between. and then have an opportunity to address those things and heal together. So I think that's, yeah, that's part of my vision. Yeah, I love that vision of healing together. It's almost like this partnership with life itself, isn't it? ⁓ Yeah. to that harmony, the balance again. So the title is, you already mentioned, so relationships as a mirror. a pathway to healing, self growth and personal transformation. ⁓ You just mentioned that some of these patterns ⁓ in relationships that ⁓ they might be a mirror, some of those patterns are not. So I'd love for you to kind of clarify that a bit. Like what are some examples of that? What is a good example of something that will be the that's easily identified as a mirror and behaviors and patterns that are not. Okay. I guess, you know, in relationships might work in a myriad of different ways. And in couples counseling, we do tend to, as I said, focus on, you know, attachment and, you know, different attachment styles that come with that. So What often does happen in ⁓ difficult couple dynamics is what's called the Pursuer-Withdrawer dance. So that's basically perhaps where one partner is more of the pursuer in the relationship, is perhaps a little bit more anxious and is wanting to, know, when there are ⁓ issues and troubles that come up in the relationship, they're very much about going towards the problem, towards their partner to try and resolve it to. really put that anxiety at bay. Whereas withdrawers tend to perhaps, I mean, not all, but you know, everyone's different, but generally speaking, tend to perhaps maybe shy away from intense emotional sort of discussions and may need a bit more time to reflect and process to understand their thoughts and feelings. ⁓ And so I guess, you know, just to sort of go back to your question. Um, the withdraw a pursuer dance in terms of one person, perhaps pursuing conflict resolution and, more connection, more, more, um, know, intimacy, all those sorts of things. And the other person may be, uh, at times sort of, uh, withdrawing from that, you know, in various different ways. Um, this is a very dynamic mirror because I think often for. perhaps the person on the more anxious side, I mean, this is just a very general, broad example. ⁓ The fact that their partner might be sort of saying, hey, let's just chill for a minute. Let's just put this on pause. We don't have to actually resolve every single problem right now. Let's take a breather, a breath and think about it and come back when we're ready. And our nervous systems aren't all dysregulated and ⁓ supercharged and all of those things. So that's a very, you know, that's a very good lesson for the, for the, the more anxious partner is it's sort of says, okay, well, you need to learn perhaps self soothing techniques and also, you know, to how to perhaps put a pause on things and manage some of that anxiety and those expectations. And then for the other partner, the lesson may be something like, well, you know, it's safe to actually express and feel and, you know, come to the table a bit more and discuss things more openly and, ⁓ you know, and be a bit more vulnerable. So I guess that's sort of a very typical example that ends up in the counseling room. And then in terms of when perhaps relationships aren't a mirror, that's, guess, more getting into the realm of abusive relationships, ⁓ where there is, you know, coercive power and control issues present. ⁓ I mean, that could still be in some ways seen as a mirror, but it's definitely not a helpful healing mirror. It's more of a damaging ⁓ mirror that's ultimately something that ⁓ can take a lot of time to heal from afterwards. best to try and extract oneself from those kind of relationships, if and when safe to do so. Right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for the clarity. That's very clear to me. And when I heard that some women, and perhaps men too, they don't leave abusive relationships, it's really hard for them. Some of them just stay for the rest of their lives. It kind of shocked me when I read or somebody told me that. ⁓ And you also, you just mentioned now leave when it's safe. yeah, talk to me for a moment about that. I know that this might not be exactly what you deal with, right? This is not really a typical client of abuse, relationship, physical especially. But what is the, is the safety the main reason why people stay in abusive relationships? Fear of? Yeah, think fear is a big factor, but it's quite complex, know, the dynamics. ⁓ And I'm just trying to think of a good example in terms of the safety aspect. ⁓ Because, you know, if you picture a relationship, whether it be a ⁓ female or a male who's in a relationship with someone who is very controlling, ⁓ The person who is very controlling may be, you know, may sort of threaten to perhaps ⁓ ridicule or, you know, physically abuse or financially abuse their partner if there's ⁓ a separation, ⁓ or they might use quite underhanded manipulative sort of emotional tactics as well. to coerce the person to not leave. ⁓ And so then it becomes this vicious cycle that's very, very difficult, I think, for people to escape from. And meanwhile, there's also often a lot of shame associated with ⁓ being in a relationship like that. ⁓ And perhaps a lot of pressure to present a very positive, rosy... view of what the relationship's like to friends and family and to the public. ⁓ So that can be another element. it's, but I think it's a very complicated area that we probably don't know enough about, particularly in psychology, but there's a lot of emerging research and a lot of really good books that go into more detail about the power and control tactics that are used. I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it does. Especially when you say that's a very complex situation. ⁓ it's, yeah, I don't mean, I think I should not even ask more questions about that. But I do want to ask a question about, that will be almost like for the end of the conversation, but it just came to me now. What would be, from your perspective, ⁓ your professional and personal perspective, a model of a healthy relationship? What's the closest that we can get to that? I think that that's really talking about secure attachment essentially at the end of the day, which basically means that both partners feel that their partner is on their side, that they can turn to their partner if they're having issues, problems, they want to raise something that's bothering them and that their partner is going to be receptive to that and perhaps not become defensive or angry or withdraw from them. ⁓ Of course, you know, we all lead stressful lives. And so sometimes, you know, there might be a situation, even in a really healthy relationship where one partner wants to address something with the other and the other has just gotten home from work and they're stressed and tired and they might accidentally snap and say, you know, I don't want to talk about this or that kind of thing. And there's this tense moment. But the hallmark of a healthy relationship in that instance is the ability to say, okay, we're both just tired, it's all right, let's just put this on the shelf for a couple of hours or until tomorrow and we'll bring it up then and resolve it then. So there's sort of a level of, I guess you could call it emotional safety around being able to address things and just also a sense that. ⁓ you don't have any doubts that that person loves you and that they're in your corner and that they want to be with you. ⁓ And of course, again, we all have days where perhaps we might be a bit more fragile due to all sorts of external factors and that's very normal and human. But it's this general overall sense of this person has my back. They love me. They're here for me. I'm here for them. I love that. And then you speak a lot about emotional safety. Feeling like you can say anything. That's something that ⁓ seems like we, the world that's not really ready for it. see, ⁓ most people, can't really have an open conversation and kind of... say ⁓ not even your truth, let alone some universal truth. Some people are not even open to that and they will become defensive. I think there's a lot to do with emotional safety or being ⁓ emotionally healthy. A lot to do with being open too, isn't it? It's a form of intelligence that you're just open and you don't have to agree. But there's this sense of lightness where you can almost like... You have enough space within yourself to dance around, you know, any topics or anything without getting defensive or getting angry or anything like that. It's really beautiful to see when you meet people like that. But it's not so common, though. I don't know. ⁓ Do you find it to be common, actually, that you find people that are open that you can talk about pretty much anything, politics, religion, you name it, and they are just cool about it? Well, I mean, I think that ⁓ you know, because I am actually working mostly with people who are experiencing a lot of distress in their relationships. ⁓ Perhaps when they first come in, ⁓ I'm not seeing that so much, you know, which is understandable, right, because they're potentially in a lot of crisis. And so, you know, that those higher abilities or that those higher functions are not really present or happening. ⁓ But with, you know, time and ⁓ security and ⁓ persistence and all of those things through the process of therapy. ⁓ The ability for that to happen starts to perhaps emerge a bit more, think. ⁓ So I think it's a very, I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I think it's a very important process. ⁓ But I mean, just zooming out probably ⁓ on a macro level, I'd say maybe it's probably a rare quality. Yeah. I'm curious. Do you have some thoughts around that as well? Yeah, I feel the same way. It's rare. Yeah, that's why I have the podcast. That's the way that was my way of having these conversations. So we could just talk and we could just talk about anything pretty much. Although we don't bring politics. religion, spirituality is even I speak to a lot of religious people, but we we get along. It's really beautiful. Yeah, they're open to the my form of spirituality, which is a lot more open than the religious way. But yeah, it's rare. It's rare. And I have to say it has to do with healing. Right, Julia? That's the trauma gets in the way. There's so much we have so much It's almost like, feels to me like we were born to be open, to be natural. Basically, that's what nature is all about. It's always open to the, you know, to the floods, to the, what do call it, hurricanes. You see, the trees are not really, nature is not really complaining. It's basically just surrendering itself to it and just kind of growing with whatever is happening. And I really believe, if it is a belief system, that we are, Also, we were born the same way, but then somehow we lost the way we've forgotten to be natural and we became quite unnatural in a sense of almost hitting the brakes every time something appears that we, know, pushing away things that we don't like and running after the things that are pleasing. And that has caused a lot of problems like addiction as you know. Yeah. It's complex, isn't it? Yes, it is. Very much is. So I love your work. I meet so many therapists and they all have a particular kind of challenges that they address. So the relationship one is one of, I have to say is one of my favorites. Although I don't interview so many people about relationships, but it's really, because it's very important. I guess it's important to me. I love this sense of connectivity, feeling connected to others in the sense that we are talking about here. we are open and we are almost like childlike in a way, that innocence of rather being receptive. Oh, you know, if you say something that felt like it was, let's say that I don't feel it kind of fits within my idea of the world, but I'm still open to hear why do you have that view of life? know, I'm still curious and there's, like I said, likeness to it. But I see within my own community here and my family members that this is not really the case. So everybody's so tight around everything, some topic. And God forbid you cannot talk about too much about identity too. If you touch on any of the belief systems, then it's almost becomes an instant kind of conflict. And ⁓ it saddens me, I have to say, because it's something that I live for, being just, I have been free in a sense of let's just play with this gift of language and expression and human experience. But I just found out early on pretty quick that it would cause unnecessary suffering. I guess I stopped for a while by being too honest and too open and all those things got me in a lot of trouble. have no idea. Oh, yes. Talk to me about, you know, something that you said is very interesting. You talk about the misconceptions about the conditioning and misconceptions about love, right? About the romantic love, the how they were portrayed and all that, the movies. And then you talk about the stages of love. And then you talked about hormones, oxytocin, dopamine. So, love to hear from you. would be to share this about the stages of love. Yeah, the stages of love. Yeah. So just briefly going back to that notion that we're kind of conditioned, think, in society to think of love as being just one form, which is romantic love, which has been, I guess, ⁓ all across Hollywood movies, all of those things. ⁓ But I mean, guess in reality, most of us discover that it's quite different to that. And we do go through different stages. ⁓ in the intimate relationship. So, and I think that's personally, you know, mother nature's crafty design really to get us to do the work. Well, that's the intention anyway. So, you know, we all know that lovely feeling when we meet somebody new and it's exciting and they're attractive and they find us attractive and the communication just flows effortlessly. ⁓ And the hormones are flying around, like you mentioned before, you know, good old love hormone, oxytocin. Dopamine is the feel good drug in the brain. It's being released in full force. And that's, you know, most people know of that stage as being called the honeymoon period. ⁓ I guess, in a more scientific term, it's called limerence. So that's that that's that initial stage when we meet someone. which I think lasts probably about three to six months on average, maybe sometimes less or more depending on your situation. And then the oxytocin and the dopamine start to wear away. And suddenly, suddenly we're looking at somebody who has warts and all. We're not just seeing them as this, you know. amazing soulmate that has no flaws, that is our perfect other person, that could never do wrong. We're suddenly seeing, maybe I don't like, you know, the fact that ⁓ there's some argumentative behaviour or maybe I don't like the fact that our values suddenly don't seem to align. Maybe I'm feeling like this person may not be the person after all. Can I really trust them? Do they have my back? And so that's sort of more the trust building phase where we start to see everything about the person. We start to ask ourselves, is this the person for me? Can I trust them? Are they on my same team? All of those things. And that's usually also when ⁓ patterns start to develop, you know, like the good old pursuer, withdraw our dance that I talked about before. Yeah. Those patterns usually start to emerge at that time. You know, maybe a bit later or maybe sooner even, but usually around that time. And I think majority of people start to think perhaps there's something wrong with the relationship or this isn't meant to be when, you know, I would very strongly suggest it's, it's actually a guidance signal. It's saying, Hey, These are your unmet needs. These are your wounds. These are your fears being reflected in the behavior of the other person and vice versa. And so let's hunker down and really understand this and let's really track it and work on it ⁓ and perhaps take it to counseling or take it to a, I guess a guru or a self-help environment. whatever, whatever works for you and really, you know, see what we can learn and heal from this process. ⁓ and so that's why I think ultimately it's a gift, an amazing gift for personal power and transformation. And then ultimately, you know, you're doing it with somebody as well in tandem. ⁓ and I think that that's probably one of the most beautiful things is to heal in partnership with somebody that you. you love. what's more amazing than that? You're right. Yeah. It sounds very sacred as you use that word. It's almost like a, like I think you mentioned also off record, I believe like a design, almost a divine plan, some sort of plan, some sort of design, right? That's putting people together that are quite the opposite so they can help each other to grow. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I can't. Very crafty, clever plan, Mother Nature, think. Right. Yeah. So it's amazing. That just made me reflect about this idea of nature and the spirit. Because, you know, some people, ⁓ like the tradition that I studied recently for the last 10 years, it's Vedanta, Vaita Vedanta is non-duality. So it's basically they focus a lot more on awareness and pure consciousness. which is not really, it kind of addresses nature as a realm of, not even a learning school, like some people say evolution and all that, that we're speaking here, but almost like an illusory kind of reality that we have created with our minds. The mind creates all this. So we are just not in a very illusory playground. So, but that's the perspective of Vedanta. That's where my studies, that's my practice really. But then there's something about, you know, in the end, of course, one only the essence is one. So that's why it's non-duality, there's no second. Everything is one reality. But there's something about when you speak about nature, almost like playing the game, almost helping, you know, helping us to wake up from that dream, from that illusion that we are. separate from one another, that we are not, ⁓ that we are supposed to be fighting for everything and, you know, suffering and just go throughout this human experience, suffering unnecessarily and in this very, almost like a miserable dance, which is not a good place to be. I have been there for so many years. That is, that's not a good one, a good place to be. And ⁓ yeah, so I feel like That makes sense, Julia. It's almost like nature is helping us to see the truth. So even everything is kind of designed to relationships, our own bodies that one day will die anyway. So everything is transient in passing. And it really screams that what you just said of it's trying to tell us something, it's trying to help us to. get somewhere and that is the truth to see reality for what it is, which everything is very much connected and we can never be separate from it. ⁓ Gosh, but that's another conversation for another podcast interview, non-duality and psychology and nature and all that. But going back to, so what is the process like when you're helping couples to understand this, you know, this, do you call golden opportunity in a relationship? So what are the specific practices that you suggest them to engage with? Medication? I would love to hear a more. So I use a type of therapy called emotionally focused therapy, specifically for couples. And really that involves three specific stages. And so it's quite structured, but it's also unstructured at the same time, which is very interesting. and also very complex, but also simple at the same time. stage one, you know, obviously is when couples do come into counseling for the first time. And that largely involves what we call tracking the negative cycle. So that means that as a therapist, I'm asking the couple to recall a particular fight that keeps happening in their relationship. And then we break it down and we really track every single bit of that fight and what happens. Because what couples often report, and this is what the model is based on, is that there's a repeated cycle of interaction that's quite negative and distressing for both partners. And that it may, you know, the initial starting point or the catalyst for the fight might change, you know, from occasion to occasion, as in, you it might be about the bins or it might be about going to see friends on the weekend or family, but it follows the same pattern every time in terms of how the couple responds to each other, how they react to each other's ⁓ defences and self-protective mechanisms. that very much ties in with what I was talking about before about the pursuer-withdrawer. dance, so to speak. So that's one example of that dynamic or that pattern playing out. So we really, in the first stage of couples counselling, we really seek to help couples understand what their cycle is, you know, so they can actually become a lot more aware of it consciously, because often it sort of has a life of its own and just plays out very instinctively. because when people are triggered, you know, it's very, hard to ⁓ think very rationally and put a stop to things essentially. ⁓ So that's ⁓ a lot of couples therapy with the emotionally focused therapy model is ⁓ about tracking that negative cycle. And then the second stage is really about ⁓ deepening communication and connection. And that sort of follows into the third stage really. So yeah, it has a very sort of specific structure and aim. ⁓ And that's essentially what I'm doing with most couples. Yeah. Yeah. It just ⁓ resonates, everything resonates very much with me, the whole process in a way. Of course, you have to know the cause, right? The roots, like where, how this pattern. kind of progresses and how it evolves and how, in what situations it keep happening. And then I love what you said, that's complex and simple at the same time. So it's not linear too, or it can be structured. So it's very flexible, it's not fixed in any way. And that reflects our lives, right? Life, it's not fixed, it's very dynamic. everything. So one of the things that I want to ask that I'm curious about it is, I have heard before, I mean, so many times about, you know, this idea of loving somebody and liking somebody. liking the person that you're with. And then some people believe that actually liking ⁓ your partner is actually as important as loving them. How do you see that these two concepts of love and like in relationships? It's interesting. Yeah, I guess in terms of the sort of works that I do, I think it's important to have a very, very strong friendship with your partner, which is probably most likely where the like comes in, you know, because like you said, you do hear people say, you know, I love you, but I don't like you. Which is... You know, it's a difficult thing to hear and it's a difficult thing to say. But for me, it sounds like they're saying, you know, I still have ⁓ a lot of ⁓ romantic feelings for you, but maybe, maybe the friendship isn't as solid. And a lot of studies have been done to show that the best relationships or the, you know, the most sort of ⁓ successful relationships, if you will, they're based on very, very strong friendship. but also, and this is going to sound a little bit more adult only, but it's part of relationships. a good friendship, but also a good sex life. So, you know, good sexual connection, good physical connection. Because I guess if you don't have that component, not that it's the be all and end all, but if you don't really have that component, then it's... I guess it's more of a platonic connection, if that makes sense. Yes, right. So it is... What we are trying to do, it seems to me, is address all aspects of a relationship. It goes back to the concept of wholeness, perhaps, right, Julia? Like having a relationship that's holistic. So we are just always taking care of all parts of it. For me, the most important part has been the spiritual part of it. ⁓ It feels to me like it's the most important. I never had a part because I was married three times, that's my third marriage. So don't think I ever had that spiritual connection that was fulfilling that I really felt like, this is great. it has been always because, perhaps because of my interest in spirituality, so I always kind of I, for some reason, maybe my relationships, they became what you described, we've been talking about the mirror one, you know, that's trying to tell me where the place that I need to heal in order to grow and evolve. So I kind of said yes to all of them. And ⁓ of course, two of them ended. But ⁓ yeah, I don't know. It's interesting that you said the sexual part, right? That is a... That's a more physical thing. feel like the body needs that connection. So it's very much part of it. But for me, has not been sexual. It's been more like, ⁓ you know, touching, hugging, almost like... But not really intercourse all that. I mean, it's good to when it happens, but it's not really my... Yeah, it just made me reflect on that, you know, authentically here now. Yeah. Is that normal? ⁓ yeah, absolutely. And I was going to add to that, you know, it's ⁓ when I talk about sex or, and physical intimacy, that includes all the things you just said, hugging and closeness. You know, the, the, ⁓ the power of a hug, I think is incredible. Lots of beautiful hormones that get released during a hug. Yeah. Oxytocin again. It's, ⁓ it's a very bonding. You know, it's a very bonding thing to do. And it actually makes us feel safe and secure in the world. If we're having regular hugs with somebody that we are bonded to and attached to and have a safe connection with that we feel has our back, you know, it's very, ⁓ it actually makes a huge difference, I think, in terms of our sense of being okay in the world and feeling confident to go out there and. you know, do what we need to do and then come home and be sort of safe and vulnerable with the person that we trust the most. Right. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. So yeah, the hug, the touch, but not, I we're not interested. ⁓ What about love and fear? I have heard that we come, ⁓ we are driven by these two different emotions, right? Or ground of reality per se, love, fear. Is that how you see it too? Like everything we do, the decisions we make, partners we choose, they either coming from fear or love. that? Yeah, I see definitely there's a lot that I would take from that for sure, in terms of the work that I do and just how I see things. I think with relationships, people can definitely ⁓ be very much ⁓ motivated or rather controlled by fear in a lot of ways. And so, you know, there's nothing more scary than becoming close to someone and letting your guard down and being vulnerable and allowing them into your world in a very intimate way. And that in itself, I think, can create a lot of fear. ⁓ But also, you know, it brings up fear from the past as well. Past triggers, past traumas, past wounds when it comes to being loved or not being loved or any kind of difficulty or trauma when it comes to, when it comes to, you know, a feeling safe. ⁓ Yeah. So, and love of course is the motivator. It's a huge motivator. it is. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is. Something that you just said caught my attention. You said controlled by fear. So it's not really that we have been driven, we are consciously choosing to choose, know, fearful patterns or fear for anything. We're controlled by it. That's interesting that way. Almost like we feel like it's a choiceless choice. just make, it's a very unconscious. subconscious. Some people say that we are, it's coming from the subconscious mind from, we are just making decisions without even, you know, analyzing them. Absolutely. I mean, you know, this is going to sound very scientific for a minute, but, I think a lot of people are quite familiar with the, what I call the animal brain, which is technically called the amygdala and that's responsible for You know, when we feel frightened and we have the urge to run or we have the urge to fight, that's, that's, that part of the brain gets activated. And that's the same part that gets activated during romantic relationships when we're having trouble and we're in conflict with our partner and we don't feel like our partner understands us or we feel emotionally unsafe. ⁓ and then, you know, it's a very automatic instinctual raw. animalistic kind of process that takes over that, you know, we don't feel like we have control. are in the animal brain. It's dictating us, you know, or what some people might refer to as being triggered. And, ⁓ it's, it's very difficult to have a meaningful conversation that, ⁓ where, you know, the more rational part of the brain is able to come to the table. and help us make good decisions and have good conversations to resolve it. That capacity is completely shut down during those moments. So ⁓ in that sense, it does feel like we're being controlled by it. Right. Yeah. Gosh, yeah, that's so true. It just reminded me of a simple thing. I always meditate in the nighttime. I'm always in the nighttime when I wake up. So morning in the evening. But then I always, always, always, always try to keep in mind not to react when my husband is my biggest, ⁓ let's say teacher when it comes to triggers. So in that mirror relationship. So I'm like, okay, when he gets upset, whatever it is, I will just stay cool and just go within, always stay centered so I don't just respond to it. I don't react to it. And it rarely happens. I get, ⁓ it's almost like it loses. ⁓ It's funny because it's a practice that I've been trying to apply for so long and it's so tough. And I wonder why it's so difficult. ⁓ And sometimes I think I got it. Okay. I did much more here, then like, no, no, no. I still, you know, talked about, should have stayed quiet. without any shame or any guilt or anything. No, no, I'm not kind of judging myself or anything. ⁓ That doesn't happen, which is great. But there is something about, it's almost like gets frustrating at some point where, what about my practice? And I've been trying to apply these things. I've been practicing for so long and I'm still falling for, you know, getting almost like a magnet. It's like a magnetic field that, you know, the... You that you have flies that love the light, they're always coming close and then they get burned. And I'm like, it feels just like that, exactly like that for me. What advice would you give to people like me? Do we get away sometimes that even thought about ending the relationship? That's tough. Yeah, because it's tough for me not to respond. ⁓ yeah, absolutely. And I would first of all, I would say, you know, to yourself and also anyone, you know, including myself as well at times, because we're all human. ⁓ But you when you find yourself reacting in the same way, and you can't control those responses, and you feel like you're just in this reactive, what they call the reactive cycle with your partner, you feel like, ⁓ gosh, we're failing, we can't do relationships, this is terrible. I think that's really, in a way, it's quite normal, you know? But at the same time, I think that, you know, we can learn healthier ways of fighting, if that makes sense, which I know it sounds like a very strange concept, but I think that relationships, ⁓ you know, put us in such a vulnerable place. And it's about our sense of being lovable in this world. there's so much at stake with those intimate relationships. It's about our sense of ⁓ who we are as a person and our self-worth too. So makes sense really that ⁓ we get into these very difficult cycles with each other and we ⁓ really struggle to sort of get out of them. ⁓ But like I was saying, there are healthy ways of ⁓ fighting. so to speak. Then there are ways that I guess I would, I would just classify them as very reactive and perhaps even at times maybe explosive or damaging. So the trick is to learn that most likely your partner is going to be your opposite and very different to you. And there is just so much benefit to that. then you know, when we get into conflict with each other, it does feel very threatening. Yes. So I guess we have to remember that they're just coming from their place of reference. We're coming from our place of reference. Yeah. And, know, if it's, if it's really kind of getting out of control, I would really highly recommend couples counseling, particularly emotionally focused therapy for anybody. I think it's, it's a very incredibly invaluable process. for anyone to sort of go through if they're really struggling. Because at the end of the day, you know, there's, don't think that there's anything about relationships that is inherently bad. I think that relationships are pure and beautiful. It's more about the fact that, you know, the negative cycle takes over. So the cycle becomes the problem in the relationship, not the relationship itself. So I hope that makes sense. It's quite complex. does. Yeah, that's exactly it. The cycle of the negativity. It's definitely a pattern. that it's exactly that. It keeps repeating itself. then you don't both just get we got used to it. We just keep kind of dancing. It's a dance, and you call it a dance. That's interesting. I love using the metaphor. Yeah, is a dance. dance. And you also mentioned about the, you said about ultimately, ⁓ you write, our closest relationships offer us the richest access to our shadow. So thou shadows are the parts of ourselves we have hidden, denied, and buried. Right? That's avoidance, right? So yeah, that's interesting. I see that too. I do see that. Not easy to look at our shadow. Yeah, right. Like I don't like when he gets angry. So anger is like an emotion that I'm not ⁓ yet. I have a hard time kind of being befriending anger. And maybe that's the reason he gets angry ⁓ too quick, in my opinion. And too quick, for too long, and too often. Three things. So around that feeling of anger. That might be that, Julia, that, yeah, there's a part of me that pushes away the feeling of anger. And that he represents that to me in a way. Maybe that's why we are together. Who knows? ⁓ Talk to me for a moment about that. I know we're almost at the end, but gosh. It's been amazing talking to you. I could be here forever. I lost track of time too. yeah, talk to me for moment about the shadow side of it. ⁓ Shadow side, yeah. So I guess some, you know, that's probably bringing in more of the spiritual lens and sort of looking at the shadow, which is I think originally a concept that was very much from Carl Jung, the famous psychoanalyst. ⁓ so shadow is the parts of ourselves, like you were just saying, ⁓ that are disowned that we find too, ⁓ shameful or difficult to look at, you know, it might be things like jealousy and, ⁓ anger and rage and, you know, hurt and all of those things that perhaps we wish we didn't have, you know, ways of responding to triggers that we wish we didn't have parts of our personality and behavior that we just want to deny. But ⁓ that's unfortunately only going to lead to us sort of repressing those things and perhaps they're going to come out in other ways anyway that's to be quite difficult or destructive even. So in order to really heal, I think it's very important using the mirror lens of the relationship to look at what's being mirrored to you in terms of those shadow traits. If your partner says, ⁓ gosh, I really struggle with the fact that you're so judgmental all the time. You might really struggle to hear that and it might be very difficult and it may have been said in a way that was perhaps a bit challenging, but then ultimately it's a very ⁓ efficient or effective piece of feedback. You know, and it's actually probably demonstrating part of your shadow that needs to be looked at and examined and ultimately ⁓ integrated, really. ⁓ You don't have to like it, but accepting it and owning it, I think is key. Yes, it then goes back to reconnecting to all the parts of us, right? Kind of being whole, that whole, that sense of wholeness again. ⁓ Yes, that's very clear to me. Thank you for saying that because yeah, that pushing away says something that's a part of me and that's trying to push away ⁓ that part in me is actually that part has been denied and that I was not allowed to get angry when I was little because I've had been abused when I was a child. So the body probably still holds some of that. So it's interesting to see. And then some reminder of that. violence and yeah. Gosh, and you said beautifully earlier about complexity. We are very complex. Because there are all these parts. We have the intellect with this beautiful vision, which I have all my spiritual, let's say, realizations even, knowledge of truth. And then I have the mind that King George, right? Push away things and then the body that has stored some trauma that I'm not aware of. I mean, it's just so much happening ⁓ that we are not even absolutely not aware of most of most of these dynamics. What's happening here. So it's amazing how we can actually have a conversation about these things, you know, in a linear way, you know, in a clear way. So I love clarity. I cannot I'm not always that clear, especially when it comes to this, you know, the body, what it's doing and the content of the mind past all, because I prefer to be in the moment and kind of be here and focus more on what's present. But so clarity definitely cannot for me is just not. It doesn't come from those areas, the body mind. It's more from, yeah, coming through the body mind from a different place. more silent place. It's more like being here in the silence. love that, know, timeless, nonlinear and just, yeah, it's quite beautiful. Gosh, so thank you so much for your beautiful presence and for the work that you're doing. The contribution to well-being, that's really the vision I see here for this, for humanity, that we can come to the understanding that we can become whole. Even if it is from the place of silence that I just mentioned, the spiritual place that sees everything as wholeness, as one anyway. But ⁓ I love the work that you do in therapists. It's just so beautiful to see people doing the healing. It's a very courageous work, really, know, trying to integrate these parts and work with them. It's not easy. So it's very courageous. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for being the doorway to that round. you. Yeah. So I want to mention your services, couples counseling. Do you offer ⁓ services online and in person, Julia, or just absolutely. Both. Yeah, online and in person, Yeah. Definitely. Do you also, ⁓ are you open to groups working with, yeah? At this stage, I mostly just work with couples, so... ⁓ Although I will be training in family therapy soon. So, know, in future I'll be able to work with families, which will be a very interesting and dynamic experience. I'm sure. yeah. Wow. Congratulations. And that's, yeah, that sounds like even more fun when it comes to healing. Yeah. More complexity. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So your website is flourishrelationship.com. I love the name to flourish. There's something about this name. It reminds me of flowers like blossom. I don't know. There's something about flowering flourish that I put it together, but flourish relationships.com. will be clickable on a podcast notes before we say goodbye for today. Julia, is there anything that you left unsaid for today's conversation? probably dangerous to ask me that. I mean, as we're trying to close off. Right. I mean, I just think that You know, as I've sort of been mentioning throughout the podcast, it, ⁓ we are incredibly relational beings. are built for relationships. ⁓ we are built to be in relationship with each other in communities, ⁓ in family groups. We're not meant to travel alone in this life and relationships can be an amazing source of love and comfort and safety. But they can also be an amazing tool, as we've been talking about in terms of self-growth, ⁓ healing and just ⁓ transformation. So I just see it as one of the most important experiences, one of the most important elements of being human. Me too. Yes, me too. Thank you for saying that, for confirming that. Beautiful. Yes. Yes, a billion times. So my last question for you is about freedom. This platform is started the freedom to feel. So what is freedom from your perspective? ⁓ wow. ⁓ Freedom, think, for me, probably would be not being controlled by relational patterns and our triggers and responses to things. I mean, I think we're always going to perhaps ⁓ maybe feel the sting of a certain trigger in our life, but for it not to completely take over and dictate our thoughts, feelings and behaviors and to not be afraid ⁓ of patterns and triggers, I think that's ultimately freedom. And whether that be relationship patterns or inherited family patterns, all of those things, I think that's ultimately what freedom. is about in this lifetime. Yes. You spoke to me indirectly, but probably a lot of, mean, pretty much everybody. Yeah. Hopefully not everybody, but a good number of people. So thank you so much again for your beautiful glasses. you. Thank you for your work. Yeah. And we'll talk again. We'll be in touch again. Bye for now, Julia. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. you