Latest / Gay Men Going Deeper / People Pleasing, Boundaries, and Fear of Conflict

Transcript

People Pleasing, Boundaries, and Fear of Conflict · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Michael Pizzulo. Today's episode is all about people pleasing. We'll be talking about what exactly it is, how you know you're people pleasing, why so many gay men have this people pleasing tendency, and the impact it has on our sense of self and on our relationships and how to move beyond it. Ultimately, what we want you to get from this episode is understanding that people pleasing actually creates disconnection with yourself and with others, and that the path toward true, genuine connection and intimacy is actually through the truth, through solid boundaries and self respect. So joining me is our resident WeHo therapist, Michael, who has been on our show several times before. And I wanted to bring him on specifically for this episode because as a gay therapist, Michael brings a clinical perspective that he sees in his clients daily. So for anyone who has not had the chance to listen to one of our episodes before, Michael, go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience.
• 1:24
  Speaker B: Well, thank you for that glowing introduction. It got me started. I don't, you know, it's great to follow. So, yes, I am a therapist. I'm in West Hollywood and I work specifically with gay men on relationships, codependency, people pleasing, as well as trauma, addiction, and list goes on.
• 1:40
  Speaker A: Awesome. I'm excited to have this conversation with you, Michael. Listeners and viewers, if you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please do subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And by the way, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here and these episodes here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. And if you're watching us on YouTube, just go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. All right, let's get started. I want to do a little intro to set the stage for our conversation, and then we'll jump into our questions. Okay, so when I say the term people pleasing, it sounds so nice, doesn't it? People pleasing. Oh, of course, of course. I want to please people. I don't want to be selfish. Right. It sounds loving and kind. But, my friends, people pleasing is not the same as genuine love and kindness. Michael and I are not here saying that you shouldn't be loving and that you shouldn't be kind and that you shouldn't want to please people and that you shouldn't even want to compromise or even sacrifice once in a while. That's not what we're saying. There is a big difference between genuine kindness and willing compromise because you legit love that person and respect them versus doing it inauthentically out of fear. Fear that it's going to create some kind of conflict. Fear that they're going to be upset with you. Fear that they're going to stop loving you. Okay, Notice how one comes from a place of love and truth and the other one comes from fear. My hot take on people pleasing is is that it is. This is a bit rough, but it's fear based manipulation. Most of the time it's not conscious. I'm not saying that we're all out there consciously manipulating people, but it is because it looks. And by the way, guys, I'm a recovering people pleaser, so I'm saying this with a lot of authority. I'm not, I'm not throwing this at you. It looks nice and sounds nice on the surface, but really if you look beneath the surface, it's just an attempt to manipulate other people's perceptions of you. And that is not love, that's fakery. You're lying to yourself, you're lying to them and it is the definition of inauthenticity. So how do you know when you're people pleasing? If you are in your relationships, friendships, anything. Always looking into other people's eyes to see how they want you to behave. And then you behave in a way that pleases them, even if it's at your own expense. Okay, that's people pleasing. And of course we do this most of the time subconsciously to get their approval. We want them to like us and then we feel good when they like us and then we get that dopamine hit because they like us. And so then we do it again and it's this never ending cycle again. I'm speaking from experience here. Okay? So this is especially true, at least for me. When I had a very low self esteem, a low opinion of myself, I found myself very deep into the people pleasing because I wasn't able to give myself that approval and acceptance. So I. People pleased my way through life hoping that they would give it to me. And I became really good at it. Okay, so let me give you guys some common people pleasing behaviors so you'll maybe recognize if this is you, the Most common one I see is saying yes when you really mean no. We did a whole episode on the power of no. I think it was last week or two weeks ago. So go ahead and check that out. It's not expressing your feelings when you're actually upset or angry. And then you kind of justify it by saying, oh, no, I'm just chill. I'm just keeping the peace. But really, you're seething inside and you're upset. It's avoiding hard conversations because you're worried that it might end up in conflict. So you just don't say anything. You kind of keep quiet. It's also avoiding asking for what you want because you don't want to be seen as too much or too difficult or whatever your story might be. So you, again, keep quiet. You don't speak your authentic truth. It's also for a lot of people having a very hard time. And this one is also probably one of the most common ones, setting and holding boundaries with others. And then the worst part is you feel like people are walking all over you and you get all resentful because they're walking all over you. But you have not set that boundary right. And for a lot of people, when you are kind of perpetual people pleaser, you will attract emotionally unavailable friends and partners who will take advantage of that agreeableness. And they're going to love you and they're going to like you because you're so chill, you're so cool. You do whatever they want, you say whatever they want, and so they keep you around. And that feels good for you. But it is a very exploitative, manipulative kind of relationship. Some telltale signs that you are people pleasing is that fear is fueling your interactions with others more than love. Another telltale sign is that you carry a lot of resentment. That was me. I was so resentful with others, but then I realized, wait a minute, I'm the one who needs to make a change here, not them. They didn't do anything wrong. It was me. And another one is that you don't know who you really are. You don't know what you really want or what you really stand for. Again, when you've become a people pleaser who does this for maybe your whole life, you kind of lose sight of who you are. And we'll be talking about that a bit later. Okay, that's my intro. I want to talk to Michael. So, Michael, where does people pleasing tendency come from exactly?
• 6:50
  Speaker B: Well, I loved all your descriptors, by the way. I thought they were Great. So I think that people pleasing, it really is like a nurture, nature thing. So I think by disposition, some people are very agreeable and some people are very disagreeable. And those personality traits tend to be very fixed. And can we, you know, you'll, you'll see that play out over someone's life pretty consistently. People who are disagreeable just tend to be disagreeable. They just, you know, they tend to do that and vice versa. On the flip side, though, in terms of a nurture thing, people pleasing is definitely a relational pattern we learn in our family system, for sure. You learn that in order to get love, I placate the other person, I ignore my needs and, and, you know, feed them what I think they want to hear in order to get approval. And it, you know, it's. I think the problem with people pleasing is it's very reinforced that when I. Interacting with someone and I get a sense of what they want from me and I do it, they're happy with me. So. And there you go, you get validation and then you keep moving forward. But to your point, the problem with it, there's many problems with it, but the biggest problem is that you're not going to get what you want. And in the meantime, all of your boundaries are going to be stepped all over. You're going to get resentful. And it's ultimately, I think it's one of those things where in a short term it pays off, but in the long term, you lose.
• 8:07
  Speaker A: Solid point. Yeah. And going back to those early family systems and early dynamic, a lot of us, I would say we're probably, you know, when we behaved the way our parents and teachers wanted us to, we were, we weren't reprimanded. Right. So we didn't rock the boat. At least. This is me. Don't rock the boat. Don't make a scene. Don't cause conflict. Just be a good boy. Just be a good boy. Just sit there, don't talk. Just be a good boy. Do what mom and dad tell you to do. And again, that's maybe where it starts. Now, what about the gay aspect of this? I know you have mostly gay clients, is that right? Yeah. So what's the gay flavor of this? Exactly.
• 8:43
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, it's changing so much now with different generations in our culture, but, you know, our millennials, right. Our age group and over, it's definitely, you know, worse too. But there's a part of your identity that's being shamed quite a lot, your sexuality. And so there's this natural inclination to try to cover it up. And what the. The way to people please people in terms of presenting your sexuality, at least at that time, was to be straight. That was the pleasing way, I think, for a lot of people. You could be gay, but it wasn't, you know, the reception you were met with was going to be, you know, either contentious or mixed at best. So the people pleasing strategy would be to. What do people want my sexuality to be? They probably want it to be straight. So I'm going to fake it. I'm going to pretend to do that.
• 9:28
  Speaker A: That's very true. You're speaking right at me because I said earlier that I was really good at people pleasing because I think I learned it, like, I had to learn it from my. I didn't even know I was doing it at that age. Right. I was in the closet. And just what you said here, like, if I. I said earlier, people pleasing is managing people's perceptions. And where do you think that started? Like, I got really good at that from the beginning. Like, okay, I'm going to manage how they think about me so that they think exactly as you said, I'm straight. So that closet is where it was born from for me. And I'm willing to bet for a lot of people out there, I agree.
• 9:59
  Speaker B: And I think for, you know, for gay folks and LGBT folks in particular, because the thing you're ashamed about is invisible, that you can. People please, you can try to camouflage and. Yeah, it really lends itself to this.
• 10:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. The way I would define shame, one of, one of the ways I would define it is like, that internal shame of, like, the belief I'm not lovable as I am, like, truly for who I am. So then we seek that love and validation and approval externally. And there's nothing wrong with wanting love and approval and validation. We're human, right? That's totally fine. But I think what happens is we get. We try to find that approval by being accommodating and compliant. Overly so, again, at our own expense. That's. That's the difference, right?
• 10:41
  Speaker B: Yes. And it's so funny too, because I'm not a people pleaser by natural disposition. So when I first encountered people pleasers, and my family isn't either, so we're all like loud Italian New Yorkers. So I was very much like, what is this? Like, why is everyone. And like, and what I always tell people too, is that when you're people pleasing, you think, like, I'm, you know, feeding you the meal that you want, but I Think what people pleasers don't notice is that a lot of people can tell that they're being manipulated or they can tell that they're being presented with something inauthentic and they don't like it. You know, I, I know for me, like when I'm being people please, like, it's very off putting. I don't want the fake message. I want the. Even if it's going to cause a conflict, like, I would prefer that. And I think that there's a, there's an assumption that people pleasers make, which is. I think they're correct probably, I don't know, 50, 60% of the time that people just want to hear. Just, just tell me what I want to hear and they'll be happy. But I think there's a big group of people that don't like that. And when I challenge people pleasers with that concept, it usually, you know, throws them for a loop too, because they think like, oh, I've cracked the system.
• 11:45
  Speaker A: That's interesting. I was a people pleaser and now I'm not. Or, you know, it still shows up from time to time, but I recognize it. And so you're right now, now when people please me, I can't stand it. And I'm like, just tell the truth. Like, I can handle it. I want the truth. I, I don't want anything inauthentic in this relationship, in this dynamic. Like, just tell me the truth. I'm a big boy. I can handle. And if we can't, then we'll, we'll figure it out, right?
• 12:07
  Speaker B: Absolutely. And I really don't, like, I tend not to. None of my close friends are people pleasers. Cause I don't think I would know. I just, I get uncomfortable with it. But, you know. Yeah, I think what it does is it makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I know that they have boundaries, just like I have boundaries. But since they're not saying them, I feel like it's like a, like a trap thing on the, like a booby trap on the floor where, like I might step on it, but I didn't even know it was there. And then I'm going to be held accountable.
• 12:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Speaker B: For doing something wrong. And it's. The whole thing just throws me into a place of feeling confused that I don't want to deal with.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: Here's an interesting one. Do you think that, I mean, you're a therapist, right? So you, you're trained to see this, you know, this, you can see this coming probably a mile away. But do you think that regular non therapists out there know when they're being people pleased, or do they fall into that trap?
• 12:53
  Speaker B: No, I think they do. I think they do. I think that the unconscious communication we have with one another is so strong and so powerful, like the implicit messages that we're being sent. And we can tell when something doesn't feel authentic or when someone's saying yes, but you kind of feel like they mean no. So. Yeah, no, I don't think you have to be trained. I think it's just a human ability.
• 13:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. What tips it off for me is if someone's always agreeable or too agreeable and they don't take a stand on anything, then I'm like, okay, well, either I'm bulldozing you or you're not standing up for yourself. Like, you gotta speak up. Right? Yeah, that's how I know. Like, disagree with me. Say something that say, no, I don't agree with you, or, no, I don't want to do that. Okay, now, I know we're being authentic, but if you're always agreeable and you're always nice and you're always giving me compliments, it's just. It seems inauthentic to me.
• 13:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, because it is. There's no way. There's no way. Even people who are, you know, like, chill, and I wouldn't describe myself as being like, you know, chill, but, you know, people who are so even, like, nothing really rattles them. Yeah, they will be. They're very opinionated because they're. They're not bothered by conflict. So they have no problem saying what they're thinking because they are, you know, kind of neutral to your reaction.
• 13:59
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I consider myself very adaptable and chill most of the time until I'm not, But, like, I have a lot of space in that thing. But you'll know when you hit my limit, because I'll tell you. But there is a lot of room there. Right. I'm very adaptable. I can handle myself in a lot of situations. I am mostly very go with the flow kind of guy, but never at my own expense.
• 14:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not go with the flow. I'm go with my flow.
• 14:22
  Speaker A: I think, you know, thinking about my early friendships, especially with other gay guys, when I had just moved to Toronto and I was just freshly out at the time, I didn't know, but I've worked through this, through therapy years ago, was that I felt like I had to give more because I felt like I was worth less. So. Because I'M worth less. I therefore need to give more. And that for me fueled a very performance based friendship and identity. Like I will make up for the fact that I'm less than by doing everything you need me to do and saying what you need me to say. And again, not authentically.
• 14:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure you've experienced this too, even with working with people where you feel like you're encountering a performance rather than a person. Yeah, you know, it just feels like it's like a stand up routine rather than like I'm hurting and help me, you know?
• 15:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's why I love when this is going to sound terrible. How do I find a nice way to say this? I'll just say I love when people crack and like, ah, there you are. Like there's that polished exterior that people have and I'm like, I know there's more there. And then. So when, when those cracks start to show, they hate it, of course. But I'm like, here you are. This is the real you. This is the you that we all want to love and see and hold, not the you that's all polished and perfect. I do find that the people who do a lot of people pleasing and are very good at it will have a lot of friends and acquaintances, but actually on the inside feel quite isolated and lonely and emotionally disconnected from them because they're not showing them their real selves.
• 15:50
  Speaker B: Oh, for sure, absolutely. Yeah. And it must be, I mean, I don't know how people do it, it must be exhausting. I truly, I'm not, I'm not an actor, I can't fake anything. So like, I don't know how people, you know, I'm, I'm genuinely impressed by people being able to put in so much effort to showing up in the world in a way that's so performative and authentic. But good God, it must be exhausting.
• 16:11
  Speaker A: It is, yeah. I can tell you it is. And like I said in the beginning, it's like you're always thinking about what they're thinking about you. It's just very mentally and emotionally draining and exhausting and then you completely lose sight of what you want. It's like, oh, if I say this, how are they going to think if I do this, what are they going to think? Like it's always what are they going to think? What are they going to think? What are they going to think? And making sure that whatever you do is going to be something that they'd like. But you don't even know most of the Time what they actually like.
• 16:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's no way to live.
• 16:37
  Speaker A: No, agree.
• 16:38
  Speaker B: It's no way to live.
• 16:39
  Speaker A: All right, let's take a moment and pause to check in with our audience. So, audience, if you are out there and you're a people pleaser, maybe give us a little bit of what that looks like for you. How do you people please? How does it show for you? You can go ahead and write that in the comments if you're watching us on YouTube. If you are enjoying the conversation that we are having here, we want to invite you to join our weekly events within the gay Men's Brotherhood. We have events every Thursday, either a sharing circle where you have a chance to share your own experiences with the group, or we have a connection circle, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you have a chance to discuss the topics that we discuss here with other listeners of the podcast in little pods of three. If you're interested in these events, please go to www.gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. Okay, so let's say someone is listening to us and saying, yeah, okay, so I'm a people pleaser. So what? What's wrong with that? That doesn't sound so bad. So, Michael, tell us, what is the cost of people pleasing? Why is this such a problem?
• 17:40
  Speaker B: Oh, I mean, any space in your life where you have to be disagreeable or lean into conflict, you're gonna struggle. So at work, for example, there's gonna be issues, relationships. I mean, really, anywhere there's conflict. If your only method to deal with conflict is to people, please, okay, that's fine. But that's only gonna work sometimes. But what if it doesn't? Then what? And I think that's what people struggle if they're dealing with. Yeah. And. And I think, yeah, especially too, if you really want a. A career where you're gonna like, forge a big path, I mean, you're gonna have to deal with a lot of disagreeable, elicit the disagreeable part of you who's willing to say, I'm doing it this way and absorbing feedback. And.
• 18:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. At some point, like, as a people pleaser, I did really well in the corporate environment because that actually tends very well to that because being a good employee, doing what the boss wants, you know, like, again, because I was so good at it, I actually did fairly well and I climbed that ladder fairly quickly as an entrepreneur. No, that's not going to work at all because I would just get lost I would just get lost by trying to please everyone. If, if everyone out there liked my opinion, then like I would be causing much of a scene or much of a stir. So I had to decide, you know, when I started this business that I would rather be disliked for who I really am than liked for who I'm not. And that's when things really started to explode for me as an entrepreneur.
• 19:02
  Speaker B: I wish that we could have met like back when we were younger because I feel like you were more people pleasing and now like I feel like we're so similar now. Yeah. And if you can believe it, I used to be so the opposite of people pleasing, especially when I was young. I remember my first job like that it was a corporate environment and every day people would come in and like, just say like before they did their work, they would stop and check in. How are you? How are you? Let's talk about how you're. And I was the only person that just didn't care. And I remember my manager even telling me like, why don't you take a second just to ask people how they're doing. I'm like, why? I'm tired. It's 9am I just want to answer my emails.
• 19:40
  Speaker A: That's, that's more me of now. Yeah, that's more me now. Yeah, for sure. So in your practice, you know, think of some of the clients you have that, that struggle with this. What are some other impacts that it might have in other areas of their life or deeper psychological impacts?
• 19:54
  Speaker B: Well, I would say for sure in relationships, I mean, and, and you made this point earlier too. But if you are very people pleasing and boundaryless, you are a magnet for toxic people. Unfortunately, that's, that's going to happen. They're going to. Because those kind, that kind of person is looking for, who can they push boundaries with. And most people, they're going to get a sense pretty quickly it's not going to work with them. So they move on and they find someone where they like, they test you and they realize, oh, you don't have boundaries. And they'll, then they like, they're like perfect. So you're going to be a magnet for someone who is, has a more toxic, you know, personality structure. So there's that. And then the other thing is that if you, even if you do get into a relationship with someone who is, you know, healthier in terms of how they want to relate to people, you're going to be almost in the relationship in a silo because you're going to be sharing certain Thoughts and feelings with them that are either not authentic or maybe partially authentic. And it's going to create a lot of. A lot of disconnect.
• 20:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, kind of. As I said earlier, you might have a lot of friends and acquaintances on the surface, but you won't feel connected because no one really knows who you are because you have not showed them. You're constantly showing them what you think they want to see, not the real you. And when the connection is all about authenticity, like, we feel connected when people really see truly who we genuinely are. Which is why, again, I love when people crack and I'm like, ah, that's the connection. That's the sweet spot. But I don't know, we're trained to think that we have to be polished and perfect.
• 21:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I think, to your point, I think some people are. I think some people. And it kind of reminds me, like in America, like, when you meet people who are Southern, like, they just go out of their way to be so polite, you know, And I guess that they've been. There's nothing, nothing wrong with being polite, but I guess they've been told that that's the best way to connect with people. But I mean, my bias is that I feel like I actually enjoy conflict a lot more than like, fluff or, you know, pretend.
• 21:46
  Speaker A: Let's talk about that. I think fear of conflict is probably one of the biggest. When I talk to people about boundaries and help them with boundaries, the number one reason they don't want to is because they're afraid of what might happen if they set this boundary. Talk to us about that.
• 22:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so with conflict, it's all about. Don't expect to like it at first. I think people who are terrified of conflict do everything they can to avoid it. So when you suggest approaching it, they like, kind of gently put their hand over the flame and they're like, it hurts and they run away. So, you know, this is going to be one of those things of embracing the discomfort of, you don't have to like it, but it's going to be part of the process to get more comfortable with it over time. Like, I'll share with you too. Like, you know, there was a time where if I was interacting with someone who was angry, I would get really mad or get very, like, reactive. And now I'm just like, pretty neutral. Like, I just don't even. Unless I care to engage with it. But otherwise I've engaged with conflict so much that it's almost like it can be. Feel like Boring.
• 22:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's either fear of conflict, fear of rejection and. Or fear of abandonment, or some kind of combination of all of those things and they're. They're kind of tied together. Right. So let me tell you a story of when I was in my people pleasing days. I was obsessed with this. This guy. He was aloof and distant, you know, and I was attracted deeply to the fact that he was unavailable, which is a whole other story, whole other episode. So I'd often find myself in his area, like where he lives, and I'd always happen to be hungry or have something for him. And so I'd be always kind of texting him, like, oh, hey, I'm in the area. You know, I want to hang out, I want to do something. And he was very aloof with me, but when he did give me something, I was like, super excited, like, you know, little breadcrumb. I would be like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Right? And I would always have something. So. Oh, I'm just gonna. I'm really hungry, so I'm gonna pick up some dinner for both of us. Or. Oh, I just went to the store and I grabbed this thing. I thought you might. So I'd always be showing up around his place with gifts, with food, with something, and I was paying for it. This was me. Right. So I thought now, if you asked me at the time, Michael, I thought that I was being generous and thoughtful and romantic and sweet and kind, which might look like on the surface, but the truth I now know is that was not genuine. Right. I was desperate for his love, for his attention, for his approval, and I was really trying to earn it. And I had a very deep fear that he would lose interest in me if I didn't do those things. So again, there is a difference between me being generous or anyone out there being generous freely, genuinely, versus doing it because you want something in return. And that's how I want all the listeners and viewers out there to think about this. We are not saying it's not good to be generous and loving and kind and all that stuff, but you got to understand why your motivation is here. Right? I wanted him to like me. In this particular case. I wanted him to obviously be with me. I want him to spend more time with me, but that is not love. I would have, at the time told you I loved him, but now it was just fear and a very insecure attachment wrapped up in this performance of trying to get him to like me.
• 24:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, well said, Very well said.
• 24:49
  Speaker A: And I have a feeling that there's a lot of people out there like, ooh, I may have hit a nerve.
• 24:56
  Speaker B: No, it's funny too. Like, with our job, like, we study so many things, we read so many things, and they either fall into the bucket of I've experienced this or I haven't. You know, like, if you read about, like, depression, you're like, oh, I've been depressed, or I did this, or whatever. I remember when I was in school, we were learning about, like, people pleasing and codependency. It was like Chinese to me. I could not. I was like, what? There's no way this is even real. Like. Or I thought, like, this must be some very rare, obscure, bizarre. Yeah, you know, it took me a long time to, like, wrap my head around it because it wasn't my. It wasn't my experience. You know, like, when someone talks about being anxious, I'm like, oh, yeah, of course.
• 25:31
  Speaker A: Yeah, that one, you know, Right?
• 25:33
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, anytime. Yeah.
• 25:35
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So let's do this. This is interesting. If I. If I had come to you, if you're my therapist at the time and we had talked about it, and I'll just save us some time and say what I'm really afraid of is that he won't like me or that he's going to reject me and not want to see me anymore. How do you help someone with that fear?
• 25:53
  Speaker B: If flashback in time, you're bringing gifts to this guy and you're worried that he doesn't like you, may not like you.
• 26:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:01
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think I would ask you what happened if he didn't like you.
• 26:04
  Speaker A: Right at the time? I would say I wouldn't even know how to handle that withdrawal from him. Like, because it was such an anxious, avoidant kind of pairing here. If he didn't give me that breadcrumb, I would probably just completely. It would devastate me, like, internally. And I would probably beat the shit out of myself because we both know that that inner critic. We've talked about this before would be very loud and I would shave myself and it would really just trigger my shame. It would trigger all of my shame spiral. Like, I'm not good enough. You know, no one's gonna love me. All of that. That's what it would do.
• 26:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. So then how did you go from that mentality of people pleasing? I know you went to therapy and everything, but what shifted your perspective?
• 26:45
  Speaker A: I think what you had said earlier, it just got so draining. And I would say one of the most empowering and liberating things I'VE ever learned. I guess to answer your question, I hit a tipping point where I'm like, I can't, I can't, I can't live like this. This is not fun for me. But yeah, one of the most empowering things I've ever done is to learn to be okay with people not liking me.
• 27:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, sorrying.
• 27:06
  Speaker A: Oh, it's the fucking best. Because guess what? Like, we think it's going to devastate. That's not the time. It would have devastated me, but now I'm like, great. Do you know why? Because first of all, the people who do matter love me. And I know that doesn't have to be a lot of people. It could be five people in the whole world good enough for me. And also, I love me and that really matters. So once I learned those things, then other people's perceptions of me, opinions of me really didn't matter. Unless it was, of course, people that really do matter again, which I can count on one hand who those people are.
• 27:37
  Speaker B: Yes. No, I, I agree. I think it's all about. Because we do need validation. I like when I am a certain way in the world, I need to know, is this good, is this bad? Is this pro social, antisocial? Like, we do need feedback from people. You know, that's how kids learn how to get along with each other and whatnot. But I would say it's about knowing which validation is valuable and also discarding the good validation too. Like, for example, I remember I had, I had this boss who was like, completely checked out and would just like show up every once in a while and like, give feedback that was meaningless because he wasn't paying attention. And I remember he gave us some negative feedback. And my co worker was like, devastated. And I kind of felt like, I mean, I didn't really enjoy his negative feedback, but it doesn't mean anything. He doesn't even know what your. Our jobs are. But then. And then, conversely, a few weeks later, he did the opposite. He praised us for something that was equally useless because he didn't even understand when he was praising us for. And I remember they were just soaking it up, like, feeling so good about it. And I thought, like, you have to detach from both of. Both of these pieces of information because they're both useless. There is no validation here.
• 28:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. If you get drawn to either one, the criticism, if the criticism tears you down and a little bit of approval raises you right up, like, that's a sign for me, you got to get like more centered within it's like the visual of, like a wheel spinning. If you're on the outside of that wheel, you're going for a ride. But when you're in the middle center of that wheel, everything can be going on around you and you're still very grounded in who you are as a person.
• 29:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know. What I noticed too, is that there are pieces of feedback that are very valuable. Criticism or praise, like, from people who really know us or our significant others and so on. You know? You know what I mean? But, you know, the barista. No, like, that doesn't matter.
• 29:17
  Speaker A: For anyone out there who struggles with other people's opinions, the first question I'll ask in that session is like, why does this person's opinion matter? And 90% of the time it doesn't. It's like, oh, my friend's friend from high school, or that guy that I dated five years ago who saw something on Instagram and left a nasty comment. And I'll say, well, why does their opinion matter? And 90% of the time it's like, well, actually, it doesn't. Now, sometimes it does. If it's your best friend, if it's a family member who you love, if it's your partner or, you know, someone whose opinion does matter, that's a different story. We go a different path on that one. But most of the time, I'm willing to bet the people whose criticism, feedback, approval that we need, often they're not that important. Really. At the end of the day, I would agree.
• 30:00
  Speaker B: And I think that this mentality, and for all the flaws of my parents, I am really grateful that they always raised me with the mentality of. Your job is not to make everyone like you at all. Like, not even a little bit. Your job is to figure out who you want to connect with and know that there's good and bad people out there and get away from the bad people and. But don't even worry about, like, appeasing everyone. Like, that's. That should be the last thing you even consider. And I'm grateful I got that message because I. I do feel like it's such an unnecessary lens to see the world through.
• 30:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, and that's. That's, you know, the question you had asked me is, what was my journey? And that's what happened as I developed my own capacity to love myself, to listen to myself, to truly know and to know who I am and be who I am in the world and express that through boundaries and what I want and what I need and say that out loud and that all came from self love. As I learned that, that's when all the desperation and people pleasing went away because it just wasn't necessary anymore. I cultivated that from within. Now, of course, I still want a validation. I still love approval and all these things. I still need love and connection, belonging, but I'm doing it in a way that's much more authentic. Like, here is Michael, good, bad, ugly. Here's who I am, here's what I stand for. If you love that, great. I welcome you into my life. If not, peace be with you. Have a nice life. I'm not upset about it. It doesn't ruin me. It's just how it is. Right. So it's that desperation of needing to be liked and that desperation for that approval isn't there anymore. I still want it, but it's very calm, it's very peaceful, and it's just very authentic. It's rooted in truth.
• 31:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, agreed, agreed. And I, I don't know about you, but I don't want to be validated for something that's not real. You know, if someone has an impression of me that I'm something that I'm not and I get all this praise, like, I don't want that.
• 31:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I fully agree. Yeah. Yeah, I'll do that. I'll, you know, people will give me a compliment about something and I'll try to be like, I will receive it where I don't want to deflect it. I will receive it and then kind of be humble about it and remind people, don't put me on a pedestal. Like, I'm not perfect. Just because I kind of, I do this work does not mean I've got it all figured out. I still, I still do, by the way, struggle with people pleasing. And for me, it is always with. Comes up with family dynamics. So with my romantic partners, doesn't come up at all. With my friends. Definitely not. But for some reason, it's those family dynamics where those old patterns are still there. And I will notice that people pleasing tendencies still show up. With my mother, for example, or family dynamics.
• 32:21
  Speaker B: That's so interesting because I feel like most of us get our most argumentative with our family.
• 32:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. But I still have that be a good boy, be a good boy mentality. It shows up with my family. It doesn't show up so much with my friends at all, but definitely with my family. You know, I don't want to disappoint my mom.
• 32:37
  Speaker B: Right, right.
• 32:38
  Speaker A: That still comes up from like, okay, if she asks me to do something or anyone in my family says, oh, hey, we're having this thing over here. I'll have to like, really? I talked about this in the Power of no Episode. I have to like really genuinely sit. Like if I go to this event, I have to go because I want to. Even if it's not my ideal thing, even if I would rather be doing something else. If I choose to go, I'm like making a conscious wish that I'm doing it because I love them, even if it's inconvenient. Right. I will not go to something and then resent them because that's on me.
• 33:09
  Speaker B: Right, Right. No, absolutely. Yeah. I'm just thinking out loud too. I think people that I know also that do a lot of people pleasing. I feel like it was very effective for them when they were growing up. Meaning that they people please and people gave them a thumbs up and then they got rewarded for it. But I think, yeah, I guess just my own upbringing, it was like I couldn't do that. Like it didn't work. Like there was so much chaos with my parents going on and, and, and whatnot that I couldn't like placate. So I think it just didn't stick, if that makes sense.
• 33:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Do you find, like at the beginning I said that a lot of gay men can be people pleasers. Do you think that that's a true statement based on what you've seen in your practice?
• 33:51
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 33:51
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 33:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I do think a little bit more than straight men. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do think so.
• 33:58
  Speaker A: I'd love to know if there are any stats on that. If anyone out there has any stats on this. I'd love to know what that is.
• 34:02
  Speaker B: There's like the stats on gay men are always outdated or the studies are terrible because they don't research us very much.
• 34:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. So we've got our anecdotal evidence. This is all we can go with right now. Okay, awesome. So we'll take a little break for our viewers and listeners. I want you guys to check in with yourself after a little conversation here and reflect on your own fears around conflict, maybe your own fears around setting boundaries with others. And if that brings up a fear of rejection or even abandonment for you. And if you're feeling brave, go ahead and share with us in the comments what comes up for you if you want to take this topic to the next level. We have several online courses and coaching videos within the game and going deeper coaching collection. That is where you get lifetime access to 45 coaching videos. We have two courses, one of which is called healing your shame, which talks about how we experience internalized shame and what to do about it. Then the other course we have in there is called building better relationships, which focuses more on external relationships and how to have more authentic, deep relationships romantically, platonically, but it does actually also focus on the relationship with yourself as well. So go to www.gaymengoingdeeper.com to get lifetime access to all of that. All right, Michael, we have covered what people pleasing is, how it shows up, where it comes from. So now that begs the question, what do we do about it?
• 35:28
  Speaker B: So I think it's really kind of asking yourself, do I want to have a paradigm shift in my life or not? Like, do I want to keep really thinking about your people pleasing and how effective it is and how effective it's not? Because don't get me wrong, there are ways that it can be rewarded and be effective, but really thinking about, do I want to make a major change in how I show up in the world? Because it's not a small task. It really is like a big shift. And I think if you're not fully bought in to the process, then you're not going to really commit to it. And hey, if you land on, you know what, I'm kind of cool just being a little people pleasing. That's going to be my thing. I don't see myself changing, then that's fine, you know, or if you want to make a little change here or there. But if you really want to go, you know, make a big shift in terms of I don't want to be a people pleaser anymore, I would consider first, like, am I ready for a big change just in how I view the world.
• 36:23
  Speaker A: How would you walk someone through that decision? Like, if I, if I'm there in your office and I'm a people pleaser, how do you know whether or how to what? I know whether I want to just continue doing it or whether it's something that's really affecting me in a negative way and I should make that change.
• 36:40
  Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, and we, we see this a lot. Right. It's like people say, oh, I want to change, and then they don't.
• 36:45
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 36:45
  Speaker B: Which don't get me wrong, we all do.
• 36:47
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker B: So I'm so guilty of this also, you know, so it's just part of life. But yeah, I mean, you can, like, for example, if they're dealing with like a boss, that's difficult. And they just keep people pleasing Them, if they're motivated, they'll say, okay, I'm. They'll go, you know, you could say, well, what could you say to the next time you get into a conflict that wouldn't be people pleasing? And you'll, you'll hear like the backpedaling or the, you know, uncertainty. So I think you can get a sense pretty quickly if someone really wants to work on it. And also, too, you know, the process that we do is so relational. So if someone's people pleasing, it does show up a lot in the work that we're doing.
• 37:20
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 37:21
  Speaker B: You know?
• 37:21
  Speaker A: Yeah. So happy you said that. I definitely see that with clients who want to people please me, and I'll see it. Right. And. But that's great because it gives us something very tangible in the moment to work on, which is so nice when that happens.
• 37:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, you're right too. And I think it's. It's funny too, because if you ask people, like, what would people pleasing me look like? Then they'll come up with some concept because they don't. They don't know what I need. They don't know what I need in my life at that moment. So it's funny how you can see how, like, there's just a lot of guessing that goes into the people pleasing process.
• 37:51
  Speaker A: That's why it's so exhausting. And I'm telling you this from experience, it is so exhausting because you think you know what they want, but you'd actually don't. So if, for example, I was trying to people please you back in the day, you would actually probably hate it because you are someone who values the truth and authentic connection. And I'd be like, oh, I'm going to give Michael what he wants. And I wouldn't even know what that is. Right. So it's interesting how we think we are connecting with people by people pleasing, but in fact, it completely disconnects us.
• 38:16
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think with a certain type of person, it's not gonna. They're not gonna like it.
• 38:20
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker B: Or it's just gonna go over their head.
• 38:22
  Speaker A: But even. Even with a type of person who does like to be people pleased, I still think it disconnects us because that's inauthentic connection.
• 38:29
  Speaker B: You are not connecting 100%.
• 38:31
  Speaker A: You're not connecting authentically. They are not seeing the real you. You're not showing them the real you. So even if they enjoy being people pleased, you're losing out because you don't get the benefit of someone seeing you for who you really are.
• 38:42
  Speaker B: 100%. And someone who actually, like, encourages you to people. Please. Is probably not a healthy person to have in your life.
• 38:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. What you had said earlier about attracting those kind of toxic people is a hundred percent true in my experience as well. So you nailed that. Maybe that's another thing people can look for is like, maybe do an audit of the people in your life, people that friends and whatnot, and kind of ask yourself that question, like, who am I giving more out of fear or because I genuinely love them and want to?
• 39:12
  Speaker B: Yes. Oh, yeah. I have a friend in, like, literally every single person they either date or try to befriend ends up trying to push boundaries with them. And they're like, why does this keep happening? And I'm like, it's you. I can't even remember the last time someone even tried to push a boundary of mine. And it's not even because I hold up a sign saying, like, don't mess with me.
• 39:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker B: People, they can just smell it on you.
• 39:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:33
  Speaker B: It's not going to work.
• 39:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. Can we talk about that? Boundaries. This is something that I think a lot of people have a very hard time with. I used to, and now I fucking love boundaries. They're my favorite thing. So if anyone out there does struggle with them, please know from my example that you can get to a point where they're really fun. Michael, how would you help someone or what advice would you have for someone who does have a hard time asserting themselves and setting boundaries?
• 39:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. So I think with boundaries, people forget that you have to be relentless with your boundaries. I think that people summon the courage and they say their boundary one time and they think I did it. And then they think it's over. And then, you know, the next time someone approaches their boundary, they like, like, I already said it, and then they just kind of fold and then the whole thing, the whole process is done. That it's your job to guard it. So every time someone, like, approaches your boundary or crosses it or whatever, you are the only person that can defend it.
• 40:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. And to me, that is the most empowering act of self love is to stand up for yourself, to advocate for yourself, to advocate for your needs. Like if you want to build confidence. Guys. Oof. That moment right there that Michael just talked about, like, advocating for yourself, maintaining those boundaries, holding them is so. It signals such self love to yourself. It's like, you matter. My needs matter. My time matters, My energy matters. And so you hold that so sacred. And it's a beautiful act of self love.
• 40:56
  Speaker B: Oh, for sure. And I think also too that we have this culture these days that's gotten very kind of warped in terms of how we view, like being empathetic and sensitive, as though those are the most important things that you can do in life, you know, and don't do, like just be empathetic and then that's it. Your dad, your task as a human is done. Like, that's not it. But that I, you know, and people will say like, well, I don't hold boundaries because I'm, I don't want to make them feel bad or I'm so empathetic or so on and so forth. And I call bullshit on that. I think that you don't want to absorb negative feedback, you don't want to upset them. Not because you're so empathetic, but because you don't want to experience someone being disappointed in you.
• 41:33
  Speaker A: That's that fear based. So that's how you know. Yeah, I was gonna just ask you that question. How do you know if you're people pleasing or you're just naturally very empathetic or sensitive to someone's needs?
• 41:44
  Speaker B: Because even, even someone who is very empathetic and sensitive, they can still set boundaries and they can say, no, I don't. I mean, you go to CVS and like, do you want 18 different vaccines we just came up with and you say, no, I don't want them, you know, or, or whatever. Or someone, you know, stops you on the street and is like, hey, can I talk to you about signing some petition? You just say no.
• 42:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. And one thing I'll say about boundaries is you might think that if you set boundaries with people that it's going to negatively impact those friendships and relationships. And in fact, what I have seen in my experience, and also that with clients is that it actually makes those relationships even stronger. Because if someone is going to have a hard time with you advocating for yourself and your needs, they're not your person. That is not a relationship that you want. And that to me, I'd rather know that this is not my person, friendship or otherwise, and move along versus someone who will listen to my boundary, understand it, get it. They don't necessarily have to agree with it all the time, but they will still respect me and honor me. That's my person and that is a real friendship that is based in honesty, truth and love.
• 42:49
  Speaker B: I 100% agree with you. I think that when you do have boundaries and you stop people pleasing, your relationships will be so much richer and stronger.
• 42:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 42:57
  Speaker B: I will say though, that you may find yourself with less friends at your birthday party, but they're not going to be superficial fake friends. Because I do think that there are some people who, when you assert yourself and you set boundaries, they don't like it.
• 43:08
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 43:09
  Speaker B: And that may be kind of a, you know, factor to consider for some folks of, are you willing to, I don't know, for me it seems like a no brainer, but I think whatever. Like if you don't, if you, you may, if you start setting boundaries or maybe people in your life who don't like it.
• 43:23
  Speaker A: Oh yeah, for sure. I've definitely lost people from that. And exactly as you said, if you look back 10 years ago and if you're like, oh, who are your friends? I'd name like 25 people. Now if you ask me who are my friends, I'm gonna name five and that's fine because those five are, they're everything to me and I hope those relationships very sacred. So again, it's nice to know who they are. I learned for myself I don't need 25 friends. I really don't. It's exhausting. I don't want 25 friends. So I think it's a good thing when you do start setting these boundaries because people will fall by the wayside that aren't supposed to be there anyway.
• 43:56
  Speaker B: I agree and I think that is a personal choice. You know, some people may want to have a birthday party of a hundred people that they don't really know very well. And if that's what you want, then maybe you should stick to more of a people pleasing, you know, perspective with relationships. Because I, I think if you are more assertive, there's no way you're going to be able to please that many people. So I, I guess in that, in that sort of a sense, like I wouldn't tell someone what to do, but sort of deciding what's more important to you.
• 44:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm speaking very much for myself here, but that's a very good point. It's interesting. What you made me think about is that in some cases people can just choose to continue people pleasing. If it's not harming them in any significant way, then why not?
• 44:36
  Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, changing is hard, you know, it's not easy.
• 44:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, people pleasing is easy. Setting boundaries is hard until it becomes easier. And that takes practice. It took me years to become very comfortable and okay with it now. But yeah, people pleasing is the easy thing to do for sure. Being honest, being truthful, that's hard. That takes courage. That's walking straight into the discomfort and the fear. Fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of conflict.
• 45:05
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's interesting too, because I. When I hear people who struggle with people pleasing, they talk about it as though it's like this, like, effortless, natural thing. But for someone who is not a people pleaser, it is torture. And it's funny because I'm like. And I know that there's things I do that are bizarre. Trust me, that it come naturally because I've done them so much. I'm so habituated to them. But I always try to think about with people that what you're doing, I think is a monumental task for a lot of us. There are a lot of people who you couldn't pay them to. People, please. I could probably try for a while and I would give up, but some people could even do it for a day.
• 45:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting how we're so different on this. Like, it still could come easily. Like, I could do it easily. And I still, like I said, find myself at that. It's kind of like it's. It's very natural for me to flow back into it, but I have to remind myself not to. But, yeah, it's that discomfort. You know, you nailed it earlier when you said how you help people deal with it is just learning how to tolerate and walk right through the fear. The fear that they might not be happy with you, the fear that you might disappoint somebody, the fear that they might not like you. Like that's gonna happen, my friends. So if you do want to quit people pleasing, you have to at the same time accept the fact that people won't like you and they're gonna be disappointed in you and maybe even mad at you. And yes, you will perhaps lose some connection. Do you agree with that?
• 46:25
  Speaker B: Yes, 100%. And I. I feel like, you know how in reality TV shows there's always some, like, villain who's just a total awful bitch, and they're like, I don't care if people don't like me. And like, I'm not suggesting that people just walk around being selfish and annoying, but genuinely, all of us show up in the world and there are people who just don't like you for no particular reason. And then there are people who do like you for no particular reason, and then there are people who get to know you and you have more complex relationships with it. But I guess the way I see it is there's Just no way you can please everyone. Yeah, it's just not possible.
• 46:56
  Speaker A: And you don't want to because that's exhausting too. Right. So the way I see it is like I shine my unique Michael light into the world and the people who are drawn to that light are drawn to it and the rest, I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just they're not, they're drawn to somebody else's unique life. Nothing has gone wrong. Like we don't need to all like each other. It's okay.
• 47:14
  Speaker B: I agree. I'm with you. I think we should all be civil and, you know, like that sort of a thing. But we do not have to all be best friends.
• 47:22
  Speaker A: You know, some people who talk about, you know, how people pleasing isn't bad and one of the biggest arguments I get is like, you know, but compromise is good and sacrifice is good. And I say, yes, I agree. But there's a difference between sacrificing because you love someone and want to, even if it's inconvenient or even if you are losing something and compromising versus doing it out of fear. Can you maybe help me put words around that?
• 47:48
  Speaker B: Well, I think I would imagine, you know, say you're in a relationship and you're compromising, you're still vocalizing your disagreement and they're, you know, I want you to do this. Well, I don't want to do it. And then you're still stating it and working it out. And then yeah, maybe you compromise and agree, but they still know how, what you're thinking and feeling versus I feel like a people pleaser. Be more like, sure, I'll pick you up from the airport at 2:00am you.
• 48:12
  Speaker A: Know, that's a great example. Okay, right. So let's use that. So if I, someone asked me to pick them up at the airport at 2am if it's like my partner or a good friend and I really don't want to do it, but I will because of whatever, because I love them or whatever the reason is, I will voice it. I'll say this is highly inconvenient for me, but I'm going to do it. And if I do it, I'm not going to resent them about it later. I'm not going to be driving to the airport at 1:30 being like being all angry at them. That's not on them. That would be on me. So I remind myself like I'm doing this even though it's inconvenient because whatever.
• 48:46
  Speaker B: Your reason is, even just Thinking of that example is just, I'm already like, the torture. No way. I'll buy you an Uber.
• 48:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, right. Or find another alternative. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you wanted to cover today, Michael?
• 48:59
  Speaker B: I guess the only thing I just think of, too, since thinking of from like, a gay male perspective, too, is also, I think, tying in a little bit of, like, the masculinity part, too, of it's okay to be disagreeable. Like, it's okay to be, you know, assertive and even a little bit dominant. Like, again, like, all of it said in a nice way and with kindness and whatever. But there's nothing wrong with that part of us that doesn't always. Like, my natural instinct might not always be, how do I get along with everyone before I do anything? Like, my instinct may be more about I want to effectively accomplish something. And I think that's fine as long as it's implemented in the right way.
• 49:37
  Speaker A: Agreed. Fun fact for our audience out there. When Michael and I were talking about doing this episode, one of the ideas that. That I had brought up, and maybe this is something for a future episode. Guys, if you. If you're interested in this and let us know in the comments, we'll. We'll do it for you. Was about Mr. Nice Guy and that nice guy syndrome and how, you know, nice guys finish last. And so there's, you know, a big difference out there between being nice and agreeable and people who think that you or I. And I get this a lot, people are like, you're not very nice. And I'm like, no, I'm not nice. I'm friendly sometimes and respectful, but I would never call myself nice. And I'm okay with that. I don't need to be nice. I don't want to be nice. I want to be generous when I want to be generous, and I want to be boundaried and respectful and all these things. But nice is not one of those things that I'm really particularly interested in anymore.
• 50:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I want to be, I don't know, effective, assertive, you know, take care of people that mean a lot to me. But, yeah, being like, nice is a little. Not top of my list.
• 50:39
  Speaker A: But the thing is, then they'll be like, oh, but that guy's. You know, they might look at you and say, oh, he's an asshole, or he's so. So, like, you know, assertive or too much. I'm like, I don't think so. I think that those are just people advocating, like, advocating for what you want and advocating for your Needs does not make you difficult or an asshole at all. Where did that come from?
• 50:56
  Speaker B: I don't know. I could go on a whole rant about this, but I feel like our culture has given us some very strange messages recently.
• 51:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, this is another episode, guys. If you want us to continue this on that topic exactly. Then let us know in the comments. We'll pop on and do another episode for you down the road, okay? And one thing we didn't talk about at all, ironically, is therapy and coaching. You know, this is definitely something that Michael works on, that I work with clients on. So if you struggle with people, pleasing, with boundaries, with fear of conflict, fear of rejection, fear of amendment, all this stuff, please reach out to Michael and or myself. We will be able to help you out. Michael, where can people find you?
• 51:33
  Speaker B: On my website, michaelpazzi. Com.
• 51:35
  Speaker A: Perfect. That will be linked in the show notes and I will link mine as well as always. So guys, if you do want some help with this, please do let us know, okay? I want to thank you, Michael, for joining us again on this, another amazing episode.
• 51:50
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me. Anytime.
• 51:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, we might have to do another one now, depending on what the audience has to say here. I want to thank our listeners and viewers for sticking with us on this episode. And again, reminder, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoyed this episode and want us to continue making more, please do show us your support by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes or tap it on that thanks button on YouTube. By the way, if you are an Apple podcast listener, you can also subscribe to the podcast and get early access to listen ad free and gain access to episodes about three weeks before they are released live. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community. So we thank you in advance. All right, guys, have a great one. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.