Latest / MaxValue Podcast / Valuable Services Ft. Loren Fogelman

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Valuable Services Ft. Loren Fogelman · MaxValue Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What brought you to that conclusion that pricing was such a key component and that there's something there that has to change for a lot of these business owners?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Courage is the key word here because most people think they need the confidence first, but it actually takes courage and the confidence comes later.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the initial run of good better best is really for people who are undercharging now and need to get down to the next level.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think it's epidemic.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it's a lot of times of not knowing how to be able to create boundaries and do it in a way that's still client-centered.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: The clients who complain the least are certainly the ones that recognize value in what we provide.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the ones that argue the most are the ones who literally don't care about what value we bring.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is it okay if I share a resource with somebody that's maybe think about doing that?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you recommend keeping time sheets?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do, why?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't, why?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: With business valuation, exit planning, strategy, and saying yes to higher fees.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ben Town.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're joined by our guest, Lauren Fogelman.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, how are you doing, Ben?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing good.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And just to give you the quick introduction, uh Lauren is the founder of Business Success Solution, an accounting firm performance consultancy, helping professional firms price on value and scale with sanity.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Lauren.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Great to have you on the show.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am so looking forward to our conversation today.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, me too.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, thanks again for joining.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with kind of the origin story of Lauren.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: What what pulled you, where did you start from?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: What pulled you into business consulting, professional firm consulting, and ultimately to kind of niching down and specializing with uh with accounting firms?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that most of us, we think that our path to our profession is going to be a straight line.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And mine was more like spaghetti noodles.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was all over the place.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but there was a lot of consistency also uh because I always was involved in how people approach things, what holds them back, what helps them to move forward.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I started out as a sports psychologist turned business coach.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found is that there's so many similarities between athletes who want to be at the top of their game as well as growth-minded firm owners.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And some of it has to do with knowing your numbers and what you want to aim for.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Firm owners like athletes are challenging their limits, even though they might be risk-adverse.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're doing something that most people just dream about.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other part is that you realize that there's going to be some mistakes, some failures, and that there's so much to be gained.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And recognizing do you lean into them or do you actually hold yourself back when there's something that might not turn out as much as you would like it to, as expected.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the things I found as far as similarities between athletes and uh growth-minded firm owners.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is I come from a family of CPAs.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I have seen how they are unsung heroes.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: They make such a difference for their clients, but often their clients don't really recognize the full value of what they had to offer.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I came to be working with firm owners on how to price their client, their services, and enroll clients into high-level services, also.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: What brought you to that conclusion that Epiphany, maybe, that pricing was such a key component and that you know there's something there that has to change for a lot of these business owners?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Money is a really tough thing because even though it's a thing, uh, it has a lot of emotion to it.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And people have stuff around money.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so many firm owners, they're comfortable all day long helping with business owners with their money.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to their own, they're not quite as comfortable.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they are connecting their fees to time, or they don't fully recognize their value, or they're giving discounts before somebody even asks for one.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, they end up working really long hours, they're on the path to burnout, and they hit what I call an upper limit challenge where they can't grow their revenues any longer because they're at capacity regarding time.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just not a sustainable business model.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely call it the hamster wheel, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're going so fast that a lot of times you don't feel like you can even step off for a minute because you need to in the setup in the structure that you've created for yourself, you have to be going that fast.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yet in the broader picture, you don't have to be going that fast because you don't have to have the structure that you have.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a you know, do you can you zoom do you are you able as a firm runner to zoom out enough to say we should do this a little bit differently, and you know, maybe talk to somebody like Lauren about uh about pricing our services better, etc.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And actually that brings me to you know something I saw on your uh LinkedIn the other day on your profile.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it it kind of poses this challenging question what if you could lighten your workload, deeply serve your clients, and double your income?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe what does that mean?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have done a lot of research, and up to 57% of firm owners tend to undercharge for their services.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because a lot of times they started out in the workforce as employees, so they got paid for their time, whether it was salary or an hour rate.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And as they're moving in this direction of being a firm owner now, there's a lot of different things you have to do.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you take some shortcuts, and one of that is continuing to price your services for time.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm gonna let you know connecting your fees to time at this point is an outdated price strategy because the alley rate came about a hundred years ago when everything was done manually and things took time because they were all done manually.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it is something that is unable to adapt to the firms of today, which use technology, they're using AI, there's uh expertise that you gain along the way, which improves efficiency.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to move away from time-based fees, whether it's an alley rate or fixed fees, over to value pricing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's so that's one thing is that when you do value pricing, you can actually charge two to three times more than when you connect your fees to time.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that a lot of firms grow organically and they have clients asking for things and they say yes.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, they're some doing some things that aren't really highly profitable or that isn't really aligned with their firm strengths, but they've always done it that way.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that we want to be able to look at what is high value as well as well as very efficient and be more streamlined and strategic about what is your lane and what is no longer in your lane.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the last part of it is that your clients don't care as much about the task that you do as you do.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: They care more about the results you deliver, and that you can actually deeply serve your clients even more by focusing on what's of value to them instead of positioning yourself as a technician doing primarily the uh after-the-fact compliance work.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to look at where you're doing things that aren't very profitable in your firm, how to deeply serve your clients, and maybe which ones you need to release because they're no longer fit for where you're going, and to be able to move away from time-based fees over to value pricing.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, gosh, gosh, that that brings up a lot.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a cool there's a whole host of of thoughts coming up.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh paying for time is is an ancient concept, right?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have literally day wages or day laborers, and you get you know X amount of uh you know a uh X amount of pay for X you know a whole day's work, you know, an honest day's work, quote unquote.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's is definitely deep in the in the psyche of humanity, I suppose.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, I'm gonna say something like that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: That that's like still using a rotary dial-up phone as opposed to your smartphone.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, it's been there all along, but it's fine.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right, but I uh and I'm not arguing for the for the uh paradigm.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it even has you know even deeper roots, and so it can be even harder to fight against.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the the question that I have is you said uh you're talking about fixed fees uh as opposed to uh value pricing.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: It do you have a kind of a definitional difference between the two things?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, please.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: They they are not the same.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh fixed fees goes in the same category as uh your hourly rate because in order to come up with the fixed fees, you're calculating about how much time you think something's gonna take.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're multiplying it by your hour rate, and then you're coming up with the fixed fee because you don't want to track time any longer.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to just put someone on a set invoice, whereas value pricing actually is a different pricing model.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'll what I like to do is kind of go into the structure of both.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at time-based fees, you're looking at what is important to you first, your time, your operational cost, then you come up with the price, then you consider how the client benefits and what's a priority to the client.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you're a client-centered firm, your traditional pricing structure puts the client at the end of that equation.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: When we look at value pricing, we are taking the same five variables.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're flipping it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're now putting the client first.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: What is a priority to the client?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times firm owners don't even know that because they didn't bother to ask.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, then how does the client benefit from engaging your firm services?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's the second variable.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're coming up with the price based on those two things.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're looking at your operational costs and finally how much time is involved.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the same five variables, but with traditional pricing, you're looking at your value first and then the clients, whereas with value pricing, you're looking at the client's value and then you're considering your own.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: That totally makes sense.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the even though the the outcome of that analysis could be similar looking from the standpoint of it, it's it's a number, the fee that you're charging, and it may or may not have any variability in it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: First off, they might be very different numbers that you would charge.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, I totally approve, I approve the that the model uh makes much more sense to give people what they actually need and want, rather than saying I provide a certain thing and it's gonna cost you a certain amount because it cost me a certain amount, and well, do you want it or not?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it that doesn't necessarily provide the most value for either side of the equation.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would, I would as just thinking as a consumer, I'd rather pay 2x for the exact thing I needed rather than you know half for the thing that I only kind of uh addresses my problems.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that that totally makes some sense.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um going you know, following along with the with the pricing.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean pricing follows trust.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And really fortunately, CPAs often have a lot of trust with and between their clients.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you turn that trust factor into a better operating firm?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing is you need to connect with your value.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: As an expert, you're able to guide your clients.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: They want to have their questions answered, and you're probably already helping them in an advisory capacity without actually really naming it that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times you're doing it without any compensation.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing to first think about is you want to lead with your knowledge and your expertise, and you happen to do the compliance side as well.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Even though clients will come to you first asking for bookkeeping and tax, you want to be able to educate them that you do so much more than that.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the question to start asking is instead of how can I get clients to say yes, you want to start asking, how can I show them the results that matter most to them?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and that is a different way of approaching that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But as a result of it, you're going to now start having different conversations that are focused on your clients as opposed to you getting a client.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So once again, you're putting them first instead of you.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the way to be able to take this now and apply it as improving your operations is I suggest moving away from the long list of a lac services that you offer your clients and move over to packages because they're structured, they are very transparent of what's included and what's not included, and they allow you to start separating your fees from time.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a first step to value pricing, but they also contain scope creep because it's very transparent of what's included.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second step was the value pricing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to now tie your fees to outcomes.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: How does the client benefit because you're doing this for them, as opposed to tying your fees to how much time it takes to do the work?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the third thing is, you know, you talked about trust and capacity, and it is possible to increase your revenues and work with less clients because you've now made the switch over to packages and value clients, value pricing.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: You realize you don't need as many clients in order to meet your revenue needs.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the things to think about if you want to be able to move in that direction.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's a great thing.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Work less.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Earn more, buy low, sell high.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um obviously that's you know, those are the the those are the things that uh that you that you want to do.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um well in going forward, you know, maybe with packages, etc.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um starting off with the sales process.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what what is a way for a firm owner who doesn't, you know, maybe starting from a point where they're not valuing their own services enough, their you know, their own contribution, their own technical skill.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you help them build that courage, that pricing courage?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that courage is the key word here because most people think they need the confidence first, but yeah actually it takes courage and the confidence comes later.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the way that you can go ahead and start making the shift away from time-based fees over to value pricing if you've never done it before, is doing what I call the good, better, best pricing model.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to give you the exact steps to do that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what you want to do is new clients coming to you.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to go ahead and come up with that original fixed fee that you would be charging for that particular work for that client.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I want you to multiply it by 1.5.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is your new good rate.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Enroll three people at that new good rate because it gives you evidence that clients aren't as price sensitive as you think that they are.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: After you enroll those three people, we move up to tier two, which is your new better rate.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, people come to you, come up with that original fixed fee you would charge, now multiply it by 2x.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is your new better rate.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as you enroll people into this, you get better at having that initial consultation, focusing on what's of value to them and understanding where they might need more information to see the value of moving forward with you instead of another alternative.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: After you enroll three people at your new better rate, we go to the top tier, which is your new best rate.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is really where the courage comes in, the confidence comes later, uh, is that you'll come up with that original fixed fee.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to multiply it by 3x.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're now earning three times more than what you originally would have earned without any additional time spent working.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you're now working with a higher quality client.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're more likely to follow through with your recommendations, they respond to your communications.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need as many clients now to be able to meet your revenue needs.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, you can free up some of your time to be able to focus on your own business development, maybe add in additional advisory services, or just take back some of that time for yourself and your own self-care.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the good, better, best uh pricing model to be able to move from time-based fees over to value pricing.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point, that new best fee will need to go to the bottom and you can recalibrate and do that all over again.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that starts to move you away from time-based fees.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so, does that is that a function solely of changing pricing on the same service, or is there a differential in services that you provide in in each of these categories?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Good, better, and best?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know, no differential at this point.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is just to start increasing your fees to where they ought to be.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because uh and and then you can start maybe adding in more services, deeper services for different level clients.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: That would be what the packaging of services solves, is where you would have what I call the silver, gold, and diamond.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it includes uh deeper levels of service with each other different tiered packages.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the initial run of good better best is really for people who are undercharging now and need to get them to the next level.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: They they know that they need to be able to raise their fees, they don't know how.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a framework that they can follow that has some structure to it.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, not so much the uh in the sales and marketing process, the sales process saying, hey, I we're gonna give you the menu and you're gonna you want to uh have not with this.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, this this applies to someone who's not ready to package their services yet.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of packaging, a lot of times CPAs want to be useful, helpful people, and we tend tend to be such.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: But saying yes to everything is pretty expensive over time.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, yeah, can you do this?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll just do this and spend 15 minutes or get on the phone or whatever, uh, and and you know, not charge that time or whatever, whatever it is, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we get a lot of scope creep.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yet most small practitioners in particular that I know will say, well, that's that's the goodwill, that's the marketing, that's the uh, you know, the the offset, you know, if you will.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this this helps build that relationship over time.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to that?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you stop the scope creep?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because it it's painful.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Scope creep is epidemic, especially for the smaller firms where the owner is very client-centered, he doesn't want to lose a client or disappoint someone.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe it's a lot of times of not knowing how to be able to create boundaries uh and do it in a way that's still client-centered.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is it's never too late to deal with scope creep.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you recognize what's going on and you're ready to kind of tame it in, then go ahead and do that, even with your older legacy clients that you've been saying yes and answering questions forever.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because even yesterday I was talking with someone and they were telling me they did research for one client, and it was a lot of research.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then another client, like a couple weeks later, came to them with a very similar question.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: They just answered it because it was now a 15-minute conversation and never got compensated.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and they were giving this client like something that was going to save them$300,000 in taxes, and they never got compensated for it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to change that because that was high value information.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they could have been well paid for that.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the client would have been happy to get that in just 15 minutes.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to say awareness is the first step to scope creep, and that you realize.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That the more that you take on and say yes to without adjusting your fees means that it lowers the value of a client, which lowers your profit margins as well.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at it as a symptom.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a symptom that you need a system in place to avoid this from happening again.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because just taming it in now and you don't have a system means that it's going to start to happen again, also.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Packaging your services, as we talked about, helps to maintain scope creep because it creates transparency of what you are going to do or not.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is that when this happens and you're ready to reach out to a client, you want to have what I call a guided conversation where you're reaching out, you are acknowledging that they've had growth.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, there is now additional work from when you first started working with them.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a great time to discuss package options and which one would be a better fit for their needs at this point moving forward.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what I would suggest is uh reach out to them, acknowledge their growth, discuss package options, and which one would be a best fit for them.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of a little bit of the sandwich approach to a conversation, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's uh it's a good thing.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're growing, we're growing.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe between the lines is the uh the fact that, well, we probably are going to need to raise raise some fees on you, but let's do it in a way that you choose.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um to get to exactly what you need so you're not paying too much or too little or you know, uh something that doesn't feel fair between all parties in terms of the value creation.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, fair is subjective.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's fair to you and what I see as fair might be two different things.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And because you're giving them packages to that they can choose from, they can choose what's a best fit for them.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they choose a higher package than what you're currently doing services for, and it's gonna increase the value a lot because they know where they're heading towards and they might want those uh additional services that a higher level package would offer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because you know, partly that uh, you know, I've seen it where because you already have that level of trust, they would, they're they're eager to take on something else that that they know that you will deliver on just as well as you've delivered on everything else in the past, and would love to get that insight, you know, so that you know, originally they called you for bookkeeping, but now you're acting as a you know part-time CFO or something, uh giving them strategic level uh insights.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh on the valuation side all the time, we get people calling up for one thing, and at the end of the even the end of a short conversation where you know we've established a little bit of trust, we're talking about something completely different because the thing they asked for wasn't going to be really responsive to uh what they wanted.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you want evaluation, but you actually don't need that, you need something completely different.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think you're bringing up a really good point, Ben, because a lot of times clients tell come to you saying, I need this.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: But when you actually talk with them from an advisory mindset of what it is they want to achieve, you know that there's a better way to achieve that result.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where it's your fiduciary responsibility to let them know the alternative of how you might be able to assist them with that, and that this is going to be a better path forward for them.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're already stepping into that advisory role, I think that that is a higher level service.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the clients really care about, and that you ought to be well compensated for that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it has nothing to do with how much time it takes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's really about how you're able to help them achieve something that's a priority for them.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: In your experience, is there a I'll say a self-selecting process?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll give an example where as I've raised fees over time, because you do, the costs go up, if nothing else, the clients who complain the least are the certainly the ones that recognize value in what we provide, and certainly I appreciate that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the ones that argue the most are the ones who literally don't care about what value we bring and select out of our client pool uh at some point.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that also part of the part of the equation here?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I I call it a recalibration.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as you continue to move in this direction of raising your fees, what's going to happen is you realize you have a range of clients from low value to high value.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the ones that always question your invoices, they push back, they don't follow through, they are late and want exceptions for everything, those are your low-value clients.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes your highest paying client is actually a low-value client.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: What happens is if you are already a firm owner who's invested in your clients, they know you, you're client-centered, uh, it's not a transactional relationship.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then as you move forward in this direction of raising your rates, you can expect anywheres from 82 to 100% of your clients to convert over to your new fees and pricing model.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: The ones that are most likely to leave are those lower value clients that you secretly wish would have gone away anyway.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I call it a recalibration is you're gonna retain uh up to 82% of your clients, you're increased your fees, that means that you bring in more revenue, but you're not working as many hours because you don't need as many clients now.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna say this is not about just the little beginning of the year, 5 to 8% fee increase.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it barely keeps up with inflation.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna raise your fees, I actually guide my clients to do at least minimum 20 to 30 percent.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And with that minimum of 20 to 30 percent, they're still retaining their clients 82 to 100% of the time because it's a process that they go through that's been proven, and um they are able to keep their clients happy.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes not as many leave as they would hope for.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably here because either you or a client of yours is thinking about buying or selling a business, bringing in investment, or planning an eventual exit.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why we call this show Max Value.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: We provide you with information and insights about how to maximize the value of your business.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Our team at Town Advisory guides business owners through the crucial, often once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to exit their business.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: We use our trademarked exit builder program to help business owners prepare early, protect the value they've built, and obtain maximum value through an exit.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the secret is our clients define what value means to them.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Taking the right steps now can make all the difference in creating a successful outcome for yourself, your family, and your work team.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you think you're ready for the next step in understanding and increasing the value of your business, make a comment, send me a message on LinkedIn, or send me an email.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: All those links are in the show notes.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you've kind of you've kind of already gone over this, but you know, when you have that long-term client uh and you know want to increase the rates to what is more fair, I guess you know, one question is how do you know what's fair or what you're worth or deserve, or however you want to term it, um, how do you do that you know, over over time?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And is it is there kind of anything you want to add to that?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have gone over it uh already.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what I would say is that if you want to do this, you want to do this in a very structured way.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, where uh, you know, and I'm gonna tell you what one of my clients did, Carmen, um, because she hadn't raised the rates of some of her clients for 18 years.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we did it in about 60 days or so, 60 to 90 days.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and basically she was scared doing this.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, she knew something hadn't changed.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: She knew she was under charge, and she just didn't know how to make the change of moving forward.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And 18 years, some clients were at the same fees.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we did is we looked at uh how to be able to get away from the time-based fees because she did tax preparation and we went ahead and uh packaged her services.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: We did packages for personal tax as well as business tax.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then part of what we did is we came up with a letter on how to be able to communicate the change to her clients.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: She decided that she wanted to just send an email to everybody in her tax organizer and let them know all at one time prior to tax season starting, as opposed to doing it slow more slowly.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we came up with a letter that explained the changes.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It explained the new fees and what packages that she was putting them into.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: She did an email blast to everybody, and then she was very, very nervous.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: She expected all her clients would leave.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: But by doing this, she actually retained 90% of her clients, and on average, we did about a 60% fee increase with her clients.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that was significant.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and the other thing that we also did is we changed everybody from invoicing where they got invoiced after she did their taxes, to now she got prepaid.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So she had all of her clients having paid her in January instead of waiting till after the filing deadline.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that changed her whole um business model as far as cash flow as well.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that's something to think about if you're looking at moving in this direction, is you want to be able to identify who's the best fit client for moving forward, because not everybody is, as we mentioned before.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do you communicate it in a way that's client-centered instead of justifying it with your own overhead increase?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to have it be where they see the benefits of moving forward, having the packages to drop them into, knowing that they're now value-priced, and then being able to handle any objections that might come up in a way that remains client-centered so that they can see why you're moving in this direction and they ought to go with you.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a way that a firm owner actually made this shift and recognizing that it uh took courage, but the confidence came later.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: The well, CPAs want proof, and unfortunately, the only way to get the proof is to is to actually try it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe uh in some cases you you would start off with a smaller subset of your clients uh to help build up that confidence uh over over time, but yeah, 18 years is way too long.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm almost surprised that the uh that the increase was only 60 percent.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, maybe some of those were newer.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and and you bring up a good point is that this model is flexible.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some people do it all by email and they never have a crying conversation.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Others they want to talk with their clients individually and move them forward.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you do it by email, you can do it to everybody or once if you choose to, uh, or you can do it piecemeal and maybe uh a couple at a time.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very flexible.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: It just depends on how you want to do it.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen it work with email only as well as doing it more gradually with uh conversations.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And is it okay if I share a resource with somebody that's maybe thinking about doing that?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so if somebody's interested in actually applying this and you want to be able to raise your rates and follow this model, go to business success solution.com forward slash raise and you can get the resource and the guide that helps you move in this direction.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll put that in the show notes and yeah, you have to give your people a raise every now and then, so give yourself a raise.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: The uh in your history, uh I I thought it was really interesting that you know you work with athletes.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I would ever ever say that I was anything close to an athlete, but I'm interested in some of the similarities.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do you go from you know a triathlete to you know a tax season professional?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what are what are the what are some of the similarities and habits that you you can you know translate from maybe a sports uh environment to a desk?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think the first thing is recognize that anything you choose to do or not do has to do with your beliefs and whether you allow your beliefs to keep you in the comfortable place or whether you're willing to challenge your beliefs and step out of your comfort zone.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: So your beliefs will either keep you from moving forward, or they will actually uh hinder you, you know, they'll either hinder you or else you'll rise above them and challenge your beliefs.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that's the first thing with all of us.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that similar to athletes, you want to know your numbers.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are the numbers you want to aim for?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what is a realistic number to aim for, as opposed to one that's just too far-fetched and you don't put any effort into it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: The sweet spot is actually aiming for something that's about 30% more than what you're currently doing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sweet spot for people because it takes effort, but you know it's not so far out that it's unattainable.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing from athletes is that some of the best insights and opportunities come on the heels of failure.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of looking at a failure as something to beat yourself up, it was never meant to be, and retreat back to how things always were, recognize that there were so many good things that happened even because you stepped into doing something a little bit different, even though it didn't have the outcome that you expected.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the last thing I see that is a little bit different from athletes, but I think that business owners could benefit from is athletes from the very beginning, as like pee-wees, have someone on the outside that's mentoring, training, coaching, guiding them to be able to achieve their best as quickly as possible.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas business owners, we absolutely guiding our clients forward, but it's a little bit more difficult for us asking for help.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result, you could achieve that result, but it might take you a little bit longer to get there because you're figuring it out on your own.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the things that are similar as well as difference regarding athletes and firm owners.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, that makes sense.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times I'll say to my clients, especially with the exit planning type work that we do, is that we have the benefit of seeing lots of clients, lots of businesses in similar and different situations.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so we, you know, we get that pattern recognition over time.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: We we can take lessons learned from other people and apply it.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: But they really have oftentimes a you know a sample size of one.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they have they've built a one successful business and are trying to exit one successful business once, um which is great.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully one day I can do that.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, you probably do want to have somebody who has different insights, even if they aren't smarter, more technical, or a whatever.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, hopefully we are uh more technically savvy than they are, at least in in terms of uh, you know, our particular ex uh exit planning and valuation expertise.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you still want to have the outside perspective regardless.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's definitely a lot of research that's shown about being able to align yourself with other people, uh, and maybe people that just don't look like you, because there's benefits to thought diversity and having people with other perspectives and different backgrounds be able to uh give you their perspective or maybe give you a solution that you never would have thought about because they just had a different way of looking at things.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: So thought diversity uh is something that has a lot of value.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even even just posing the question whether or not the the response is anything even useful, right?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's how we run our lives, right?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: We can sometimes say something very important, we ask a lot of different people for their perspective on it, and we can only at the end of it take one set of advice if there's any, you know, if there's conflicting advice, or we decide on our own what to do based on you know all the information we've gathered.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the same thing in business.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Just because you ask for a uh perspective, ask for advice doesn't mean you're going to take it, you know, verbatim.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so much better than just sit, you know, sitting at your desk or yeah, you know, asking AI to come up with an idea for you and and relying on the average of what's on the internet.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um that'll get you maybe an average outcome.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to get out of research and into action stage.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, so last real question.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: When you're talking about value billing, as opposed to fixed fee or hourly in particular, do you keep timesheets?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you recommend keeping timesheets?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do, why?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't, why?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know that a lot of firmowners don't like tracking their own time.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think that you need to track your time if you're moving over to value pricing and that you're putting in a very good profit margin into the services that you're delivering.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to keep timesheets on your employees, I would look at them more as giving you uh being a tool that gives you some information as to maybe where someone is very, very good and you might want to be able to have them focus more on that strength.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And also where there's maybe training opportunities that someone's taking a little bit longer doing something than you expect them to, and that they might need more training on how to be able to improve that result.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And possibly you might even find from tracking their time that they're doing work that's not aligned with their strengths, and possibly, and then you might want to swap out some of their tasks with somebody else that might be better suited for that.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I would look at it more as a tool internally with your team, as opposed to looking at it as something that you want to put pressure on, that they need to have so many billable hours in order to be able to um invoice clients and justify their higher fees.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I definitely see the timekeeping of the staff as a data collecting tool more than anything else.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it it in the hours or time equals fees equals sales, i i the the the fact that the most effective, knowledgeable, experienced people do things faster is contrary to that concept.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you know, traditionally we've professional service firms have have always tried to compensate for that with you know h higher and higher and higher billing rates, which mathematically works out just fine, or can kind of work out just fine.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: But on the flip side, that's where you get clients who are aghast at wow, you spent two hours and that's a thousand dollars an hour or whatever, two hundred dollars, five hundred, whatever the number is.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it it it doesn't necessarily make sense out of context, and it's a harder sell.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: But also, of course, that's not the entire context because you have all the you know lower level employees, hopefully, that are leveraged at lower rates, and so sometimes you know a sophisticated client can absolutely step back and say, Okay, we we understand this and we see it as a comprehensive uh fee for the overall job, but a lot of times they can't.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it it's it's a lot to get somebody over that hump of yes, we can do this, and this is why it has to has to be this way, but why have that conversation at all if you can avoid it by saying, Hey, this project, this out.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: The solution that we're gonna be offering you is worth X, Y, and Z.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's why it this is why it's worth X, Y, and Z because of the outcome you're getting, not so much the inputs that we're putting in.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also you're talking about sending an invoice after the fact with this direction you want to get prepaid beforehand.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you never are going to be having that conversation because there's transparency of what the fee is going to be, there's agreement, the scope is outlined, and nobody needs to commoditize your services because you're tracking time.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing internally, if you want to actually track something, track the uh do a client profitability analysis and see how profitable your clients are, because you will be amazed that there are some clients that maybe are in the red and you're subsidizing their work and it's not as profitable as you think it is.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or that maybe you're continuing to pay for a subscription for a client that's not even a client any longer.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you might want to do instead of client profitability analysis.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you want to do an analysis of revenue per team member.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: So how much do you expect each team member to generate for the firm?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's something to look at.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um also look at your different service lines and how profitable is each service line that you're offering.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: So those are if you want to track metrics, I think that those are a lot better to try to track than just timesheets.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that that absolutely makes sense.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And timesheets can be a tool within that, part of that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not that's not the be-all end-all.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times that's where we we stop.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then again, I I absolutely get the perspective that a lot of us uh professionals have about, well, I didn't start up my firm to do my timesheets.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but you know, you do need data.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that may be the the right way or the only way sometimes of getting data in a certain area.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: So do it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some firms where they've never tracked time.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: They so uh it just depends on the firm.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I think they can coexist.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think timekeeping and value building aren't completely mutually exclusive, they can coexist and should coexist.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's my personal opinion.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if anybody's no right or wrong.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: So just a couple of get to know you questions, then.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're a firm coach, but what else?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: What tell me something that's not on your LinkedIn or on your website profile?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: We love to travel.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that I take a sabbatical month every December so that we could travel a lot.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: We take the whole month off.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I build into the packages with my clients, is a sabbatical month for them also if they want to take time off without it affecting their revenues.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's fun.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where where's the best place you've been recently?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: We went China was actually uh something that was unexpected.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot more uh enjoyable than we thought it was going to be.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, cool.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Would would you recommend that being kind of a a would that be a broad recommendation to a lot of people to go visit China?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you go, I wouldn't go on my on your own.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's too many, too much risk of getting arrested if you do the wrong thing.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you might not know what that means.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I if you go, you probably need to go with a guide then.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many different places in the world that are just amazing.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have to find what's right for you.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, finding things, finding out things uh is something that we all do.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I do it through reading.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are you reading?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: What am I reading?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I am probably more researching right now than reading.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my my focus is right uh currently on being able to shift clients more into that advisory capacity and been putting a lot of resources together to create a training to do that.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really what my focus has been is a lot of research.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: I bet you're reading research.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm reading a lot of research.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of research.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, and where can people find you if you want to be found?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody wants to connect with me, you can go to my uh website, which is business successsolution.com.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say if you want to have a conversation with me, you can go to business success solution.com forward slash let's talk.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a great way to have a further conversation.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's it.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I'm gonna grill you on today.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so thank you very much, Lauren, for joining us.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I've really enjoyed having you here.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: This has been a great conversation, Ben.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate what you're doing for firm owners.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's great having you uh share your expertise.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wrap.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: You've been listening to Max Value Podcast.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if this episode provided any interesting information, hit that subscribe button, smash like, and drop a comment below.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ben Town with Town Advisory, and I'll catch you next time.