Latest / The Generalist World Pod / Environments are disabling, not people

Transcript

Environments are disabling, not people · The Generalist World Pod

• 0:00
  Hey, it's Millie, and welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. This is the podcast for people who have never fit into a box at work, and to be honest, we don't really want to.
• 0:09
  Every week, I chat with a new member of Generalist World, and I share their stories, their philosophies, their frameworks of how they are living their life, and creating work that actually aligns with their generalist skillset.
• 0:22
  So if you are someone who has had a non-linear, squiggly career, this is the podcast for you. Zara, welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. So excited to have you on here with us. Thank you very much.
• 0:33
  I'm really pleased to be here. Yes. So just before we started recording, you said something, and you were like, "This is actually the first podcast I'm recording that isn't, like, me because of my job title.
• 0:45
  This is just me as me." And I wanna kinda start there, 'cause I know you recently left, as you describe, like, a well-paid, flexible, interesting CEO role because you were a little bit bored.
• 0:58
  So like, take us back to that moment. Where, where were you in that moment, and what was that, like, the impetus, the ch- the, the moment that you were like, "Actually, I need to leave"?
• 1:09
  So I have a pattern that I've identified, which is after about between 18 months and three years, I tend to leave.
• 1:15
  I feel that gives me the opportunity to come in, do the bits that I can really excel at, and then leave and, and hand it over to someone else. And that's worked really well.
• 1:25
  Then I was in this job that was really my dream job, and I didn't even know that it was my dream job. But I loved lots and lots of things about it.
• 1:33
  I was managing a charity in Scotland that worked for the benefit of children and young people.
• 1:38
  It's about confidence and resilience, and I feel like I spent a lot of time and money in therapy [laughs] learning the stuff that the kids were learning now. So I was like, "That's great."
• 1:47
  I had access to some really interesting people and conversations. I could manage my own diary. There was loads of things I loved about it. So I think that's what got pa- me past the three-year mark.
• 1:56
  But then I s- I just realized that a lot of the conversations I was having were with the same people about the same things.
• 2:04
  And I don't mean it to sound disrespectful, but I did start to get a bit bored, and I could see that we were taking on a new
• 2:13
  wave of work, a new type of project that would be probably three, four, five years, if not beyond. And I was like, "Am I the person to take us through that next phase?"
• 2:22
  And, and I didn't think I was, because the organization would've had to be reshaped quite considerably, and I just didn't think I, I had it in me to do it as well as the organization deserved.
• 2:33
  But I s- I sat with it for, like, nine months or something because I'm a single parent. I'm the only earner in my household. And there was loads of things I loved, you know?
• 2:42
  And I was just like, "I have no good reason to leave." Mm-hmm. And I remember saying that to someone, and she was like, "You know, Zara, you wanting to leave is a good enough reason to leave."
• 2:50
  [laughs] And [laughs] I was just like, "Oh, well, no. Hang on a minute. No, that's not how I, that's not how I think." It's too real. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
• 2:59
  So I kinda made a deal with myself, which I do quite a lot in my life. I had seen an MBA. And actually, I think one of the Generalist events that's coming up is being run with the London Interdisciplinary School.
• 3:10
  So I decided to do their MBA on their inaugural cohort. And actually, it's funny because I said to them during my interview, "I really want to do this MBA, but only if I'm in the inaugural cohort.
• 3:22
  I don't want to do it once it becomes [laughs] year two or year three." I was like, I was really determined that if I was gonna be part of it, I wanted to be there from the start.
• 3:29
  And I did a deal with myself that if I got the place on the MBA and I got the scholarships that would enable me to afford it, then that would be the sign that I could leave my job.
• 3:37
  And I don't know why I needed permission to leave my job, but I just, I just did. So I got the MBA, I got the scholarships, and then I was like, "Oh, crap. Now I have to leave my job."
• 3:45
  [laughs] And I actually got up to Argyll and Bute. So I know you're in Scotland at the moment, and Argyll and Bute is a beautiful part of the world, but it's a two-hour drive there and a two-hour drive back.
• 3:53
  And I stopped at Loch Lomond on the way back- Mm-hmm... and I went for a wee, a wee run. And by the time I finished my run, I was like, "I have to, have to hand my notice in." And I came back and I wrote the email.
• 4:03
  Now, my chair was expecting it because she knew that I was, I was having lots of thoughts about different things, and I just decided that it was time to, to go.
• 4:13
  And since then, a lot of people have said to me I was really brave to leave, but actually I don't think I had the kind of courage it would have required to stay. Mm-hmm.
• 4:23
  And I think both things would've been brave, but the decision that I took, certainly I've never regretted it.
• 4:29
  I know there's been times over the summer where I've been really skint, 'cause I'm now working for myself, but I've never regretted leaving because it was the right thing to do at the right time. Mm.
• 4:40
  There's, like, that saying, "Choose your hard." Yes. And it's like w- it's the same as choose your courage. So they actually, they both take courage. It's so interesting.
• 4:48
  Like, I'm wondering what your take is on this idea th- I mean, there's a lot of stigma that comes with it, and it's like this, like, if you're a job hopper, you're bad. Like, you're less valuable. If you don't...
• 5:01
  If you can't spend five, 10, 15 years in a company, like, that's somehow seen as lesser.
• 5:09
  However, like, where, where do you think that comes from, and why is society so hung up on, like, having to, you know, air quote, "stick it out" at one job for a long time for that to be seen as valuable?
• 5:23
  I, thankfully, don't see that as much anymore. When I first started out, it was a re- and I'm in my 40s now.
• 5:29
  So 20-odd years ago, when I first started out, it was something that I was really concerned about and I heard a lot.
• 5:34
  Interestingly, I was talking to someone before I left my last job, and he said to me something about me moving on from jobs quite quickly. And I was like, "Well, you've been in your job for 29 years.
• 5:44
  Actually, you're the exception here, you know?" What I am doing is much more common now. So I think people...
• 5:53
  I, I don't know because I don't think like that, but I think there's something about whether you'll, you'll be loyal, whether you'll stick around.
• 5:59
  But I always say I will stick around as long as I'm adding value, because the first- Mm... person to notice when I'm not adding value will be me, and I always leave before I get to that stage.
• 6:09
  And I remember speaking to my coach about my, my work previously- And I had, I'd been having a hard time.
• 6:15
  And what she made me realize is that I normally give 150%, and actually me not giving as much is probably, like, 100% for lots of other people. Mm.
• 6:24
  I have ADHD and autism, so it means when I'm hyper-focusing on something, and I've been really fortunate in that almost all of the jobs I've had have matched with my hyper-focus. Mm.
• 6:33
  So I'm always th- thinking, breathing, talking about work. That's what I do. Especially because I, I work for values-led companies, so I know that I don't carry any
• 6:45
  bad feelings about leaving when I'm ready to leave because it means the companies get the most out of me.
• 6:50
  In terms of organizations that persist in looking like that, well, it's really interesting to me because a lot of these wouldn't hesitate to throw you off the bridge if it came to it.
• 6:59
  So, you know, they want you to stay as long as they want you to, but once it's time to leave- Mm... sorry, you're going through a redundancy process and you're gone. So yeah, I think there's a bit of- Yeah...
• 7:09
  reflection people have to do. [laughs] Yeah. There's something around, like, just being really honest. It's like an honest career design. And I feel this completely, too.
• 7:19
  I've been at previous jobs many years ago where I could feel I was checking out. I was like, "I've given what I can, and now we're at a different stage, and this isn't where my zone of genius is."
• 7:31
  In fact, when I reflect, I was probably, like, 25 then.
• 7:33
  I didn't yet have the courage to then leave before I should have, and I kinda, like, went right to the end and like, "Okay, I'm still here," [laughs] and I'm not really... Like, I'm, I'm...
• 7:45
  And it feels awful for me if I'm not giving, if I'm not in a role where I'm able and happy and giving 100%. It, like, internally doesn't feel great.
• 7:54
  So I think there is something about just being, like, really honest with yourself and in term- like, framing it as it's actually in the best interest of the company, of you, of everyone for, like, to support you to leave.
• 8:06
  Yeah. And, and not be, like, a negative thing. It can just be an exit. Yes. To leave with grace when it suits- Yeah... both people, and I think that's much better for everybody. I [smacks lips]...
• 8:17
  Yeah, you, you can be worried what people think about you when you leave, but yeah, I've become comfortable. I, I talk about golden threads and stuff.
• 8:25
  And, and in an interview, and actually I remember speaking to, um, a bunch of women returners about this and saying, "I have never known what my next step is gonna be." Mm.
• 8:32
  At the age of 11, I wanted to be a journalist, and I carried that up till the age of 21, and I did work experi- I didn't- my parents are working retail.
• 8:40
  My parents are shopkeepers, so we didn't have any connections in the media. But I worked my way up. I knocked on doors. Eventually, I started getting freelance shifts.
• 8:47
  I became a part-time journalist while I was studying, and then I graduated- Mm... and all of a sudden thought, "Oh, I don't wanna do this anymore."
• 8:53
  And then since then, since the age of 21, I have not known what my next step is. Mm.
• 8:57
  But if you put me in an interview, I can turn around and look at my CV and give you a really nice story about a, a narrative that makes sense.
• 9:04
  And that's, that's the goodness that I bring, the fact that I, I have worked in lots of different places, in lots of different spaces, and I can bring you a perspective you haven't heard because of that combination of experience.
• 9:15
  I know that's something that you talk about a lot, you know, your, is your perspective.
• 9:19
  But I think that it comes from experience and confidence in what it is that I do bring, as opposed to focusing on the things that I don't. Mm.
• 9:30
  You know, I was talking to someone, uh, a job I was looking at, it was all about agile methodologies, and I was like, "Ugh." Like, I probably could learn that, and actually I know bits of agile.
• 9:37
  I know the bits of agile that help me to do my best work. Mm. I don't know the methodologies. That means there's a whole bunch of jobs that I can't apply for. Well, that's a shame for them. Mm. Yeah.
• 9:48
  There's too many threads that I wanna pull on here. [laughs] Okay.
• 9:51
  Let me start with what you just said, which was around when you're in an interview, you can look back, and you can connect dots for people, and you can create a narrative.
• 9:59
  I think this is something that lots of the people listening would, like, really love to be able to get to that s- that stage. And I think one of the key things you said is, like, confidence.
• 10:10
  I really think this is the key part of it, where, like, if you're kinda, like, sheepish about all the things you've done and you're not really, like, owning, and if you don't believe that they're valuable, really difficult to then convince someone across the table that it is valuable.
• 10:23
  And I wonder, when you look back, is there anything that you've learned about developing that confidence to, like, own that narrative fully?
• 10:32
  I'm not sure, because actually I was just writing a proposal this morning for an organization I've worked with before, and they've asked me to do something different.
• 10:39
  And I was- I writ- wrote it on Friday, and I didn't submit it till this morning 'cause I thought, "Oh, I don't know if I can do this." But it was about me and my credibility, and the fact- Mm...
• 10:48
  that I want to be sure that I'm gonna give a client the best experience and not just take something on. Because sometimes in my life I do sort of bodge things and, and you get there. You know, you're like, "Okay.
• 10:59
  Well, a bit of this and a bit of that," and it's emergent. You know, that's the, that- Mm... you know, it's how do we put these things together?
• 11:06
  But I 100% wanna make sure that the people I'm working with are delighted with the work that I do. So
• 11:13
  there's that balance between being realistic about the skills that you have and the experience you have, and also knowing that the most interesting things for me are things that I have not done before. Mm.
• 11:22
  Therefore, I will not be able to turn around and go, "Well, two weeks ago I did this exact same thing." So there's, there's something there about grounding confidence.
• 11:29
  Grounding confidence in the things that you've done, the people that you know, your willingness to ask for help, your willingness to course-correct and be open to
• 11:42
  whatever, whether it's feedback or whether it's something that you're learning, rather than that confidence of, "I know everything." You know, I think sometimes that word can be, be misused. So, so something- Mm...
• 11:51
  around that. And for me, what are the values that I hold, and what are the things where I come alive? And my parents, I mentioned they, they were shopkeepers.
• 12:00
  I was holding a pricing gun before I was, you know, out of primary school. That's what we would do, and we were folding wrapping paper at Christmas and all of that sort of thing. And it was all about the customers.
• 12:11
  What do the customers want? Because ultimately... And I, I could talk about this with all of my teams, whether I'm working for charities or, or private businesses- I ask them, will this get us money in the till?
• 12:21
  Because for example, when I'm working with someone in marketing and they're talking about likes on, I don't know, u- used to be likes on Twitter and Facebook and stuff, and I'd be like, "Yeah, but will it, will it get us money in the till?"
• 12:31
  Now, we were a charity, we weren't concerned about money in the till, but that's my shorthand for impact. So being able- Mm... to pull it back to, "So what? What's the purpose?"
• 12:38
  It's funny because I feel like we've complicated l- life and business so much where it's just like, yeah, does it bring money in the till?
• 12:47
  Like, fantastic frame that can just simplify and be like, okay, is this actually gonna have impact?
• 12:53
  So we've been kind of circling around this word that's come up maybe do- like 10 times in this conversation already, and that's values. Yeah.
• 13:01
  And I really wanna, like, spend some time unpacking this with you, because earlier in the convo, you said that you only work with values-led companies. And so my first question is like, what does that mean to you?
• 13:14
  And my second question is, like, how? Is it just that you, like, completely... I- if something doesn't align, you're like, absolutely not. Like, how strict is that for you?
• 13:25
  It's a good question because early in my career, I had a job with an organization that should've been values-led, and the tin said it was values-led. If you went in, they would talk about it, and it absolutely wasn't.
• 13:36
  Mm. It was very hierarchical. It was very... I used to joke that I felt that if I wanted to go to the toilet, I had to fill in a permission slip, you know? It was, it was just stifling.
• 13:46
  And I looked at my watch every five minutes, eight hours a day for, for eight months. It was a really terrible experience, and what it taught me was that my time is the most valuable thing that I have. Mm.
• 14:00
  And I feel that especially more now that I'm a mum, and now that I have my daughter part of the week. She's with her dad part of the week.
• 14:07
  Anything that I'm doing that's not hanging about having fun with my kid has to really, really be valuable to me- Mm... or to the world at large, and I can't fake it.
• 14:19
  And I, I don't know if this is an autism thing, but I cannot fake enthusiasm or the passion that I have for my work. I cannot make that if it doesn't exist.
• 14:29
  And I have realized the things that spark that in me are organizations that are trying to do something good in the world.
• 14:36
  And because I've worked in charity for the last five years, a lot of people, and recruiters especially, are sending me jobs at working for other charities. And I'm a bit like, I don't...
• 14:43
  Like, I feel like, not that I've done that, and I actually continue to support and work with charities, but I think you can have impact working for lots of different kinds of organizations.
• 14:54
  What I get to do now is to work with organizations that are trying to do something good in the world, and to help them to do that thing, and I like it best when they bring me in.
• 15:04
  They haven't even figured out the question yet, but they want me to help them get closer to the, what's the problem that we're trying to solve? Who is it we're trying to help?
• 15:12
  I'm really passionate about fairness of access, and it goes back to my wanting to be a journalist, and having to make that happen for myself.
• 15:22
  And there was someone I went to school with whose best friend's dad worked for a local radio station, and she got a work experience placement just like that, you know?
• 15:28
  And the- again, this is an autistic trait, like the fairness and the fact that we don't all get the same... We, we talk about some people getting second chances, and actually- Mm...
• 15:37
  a lot of people haven't even had first chances, you know? Particularly- Mm... if we look at people who are care experienced or in the justice system. So my values are cut through me.
• 15:45
  Like, if, if I was a stick of rock, you cut, you'd cut me through. I can't help it to the extent where sometimes it doesn't suit me to, you know, um, follow my values. Maybe financially I'm worse off.
• 15:56
  Certainly there's opportunities that I haven't been able to pursue because I think... I, I get to the interview stage, and I'm like, "Oh," like, "I just can't fake enthusiasm for this thing that you're trying to do."
• 16:08
  So it's partly about the purpose of the organization, and it's the way that they do it.
• 16:12
  And someone, actually one of the guest speakers on our MBA, said, "Values are only worth talking about when they cost you something." And I think that's really true- Mm...
• 16:20
  because it's really easy to talk about, "Oh, everyone should have a growth mindset," or, you know, "We value innovation," or, "We value fairness."
• 16:27
  And then actually you look at the systems they have, you look at the way that they recruit, or who's, who's on their, their C-suite, and you think, there's something about the way that you're operating where your values are not kind of threaded through that.
• 16:38
  But for me, it's actually a painful thing. And I joke, half-joke, I fostered for five years. And, um, people used to say to me, again, it's a bit like leaving work. People used to say to me, "Hey, that's so impressive.
• 16:48
  That's so amazing that you do that." And I'm like, "I can't not do it," you know?
• 16:52
  [laughs] Sometimes it's really hard, but I'm very conscious that there are these poor kids who don't have anyone, and I've got a spare bedroom, so why would I not?
• 17:00
  And then I, you know, and I've had breaks from fostering on and off, and every time I'm pulled back because I'm like, it's not fair that these kids don't have anyone, and I have, I have stuff to give.
• 17:08
  So yes, my, my values mean that I can't do lots of different kinds of work.
• 17:14
  But the work that I can do, I do really well because I 100% believe in it, and the, the hard work is figuring out if there's a match between what people see. And actually I'm not that bothered.
• 17:25
  If someone came to me and said, "Look, we think we've drifted from our values," I would really admire that, you know? Mm. But it's when...
• 17:33
  It's the hypocrisy of saying that you have values, and then all the way through the systems, it's, it's not echoed. Easier said than done, and maybe they'll... Well, no, actually it's not. If...
• 17:43
  That's a really trite thing to say. For me, the other, other way would be harder. But I appreciate- Mm... that I'm very fortunate to be able to pursue this kind of career, and that's, that, that's fortunate- Mm...
• 17:55
  because not everyone is lucky enough to be able to do that. I think there's something also to, like, being a magnet for things.
• 18:02
  So like, when you're really, really clear about what you do and what you don't want, what you do stand for, what you won't stand for, I found that then these things start to come to you a little bit.
• 18:12
  Or maybe it's, like, a self-fulfilling prophecy, where then your worldview starts to fill with these kind of people and these kind of companies.
• 18:20
  I think there'll be a lot of people listening to this who this really resonates with, who are like, "Oh, I really wanna move toward...
• 18:25
  I wanna be more where Zara is, where she is being more selective and thoughtful, thoughtful about the kind of work that you're doing and the next step that you're taking."
• 18:35
  I know you kind of joked that you can't predict what you're gonna have for dinner, let alone, like, what's gonna be, you know, kind of coming next.
• 18:41
  But, like, how, how do you make decisions about what you're gonna be doing next? Or is it, is it simply-... something comes in the path, and then you evaluate it in the moment Probably towards the second one.
• 18:55
  I like to think that the next thing I'm doing is going to be the most interesting thing I've ever done. Um- Ooh, love that... that to me feels, um...
• 19:05
  There's a quote, I think I shared it with you in my application, and it's from Mary Oliver, I think. "Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life."
• 19:13
  And that's what I got from that job that I really hated. I was like, "This is my one [laughs] wild and precious life and I'm spending it here." So that, that to me is my driver. Mm. And it means that...
• 19:24
  A- and I, I just know where I perform well, and I know I ca- I'm either really great or really terrible. Mm. And I think this is something about being someone who is high-functioning, who has AuDHD.
• 19:36
  I actually had shared a post on LinkedIn, then took it down because it felt a little bit too real. Um, so I've had lots of appointments recently.
• 19:41
  I've been appointed to the board of BBC Children in Need, which is a massive charity here in the UK. Mm. I've got a ministerial appointment to Skills Development Scotland. I'm full with my consultancy.
• 19:51
  Like, you know, I'm like, "Oh, this is am-" And it is all amazing, and it's all true.
• 19:54
  And at the same time, there was a day last week where I sat in a stairwell crying because I was overwhelmed in a space that was not built for me. Like, that's, that's all true. And being- Mm...
• 20:02
  someone who's high functioning hides... P- people only see that successful bit. But actually, the reality is that I have lots of challenges to get to that place. So- Yeah... I am all or nothing. Yeah.
• 20:16
  And I've learned to realize that about myself. So now I'm like, "I'm just gonna go to places where I can be all." You know, where that require- Mm. I couldn't do a job that required any less than 100% of me.
• 20:25
  If I can phone it in, I'm not doing it anymore. So being able to choose where it is that I spend my time. And at the moment, as I say, and, and some of it is intentional.
• 20:35
  So again, I spent some time this morning registering with a speaking agency because I've done lots of speaking. A bit like podcasting, I've only ever done speaking as the CEO of something or other. Mm.
• 20:43
  And I'm curious about what it would be like if I was to speak as me. So I've registered- Mm... with a speaking agency because at some point over the next 12 months, I'd like to build up that side of my career.
• 20:52
  I, I've joined boards, has always been a mixture of this is a charity I care about, and I think being on a board will help me progress. Mm.
• 21:00
  And actually start appl- thinking about applying for being the chair of a board at some point, because again- Mm... I think that will help me.
• 21:07
  So it's almost like scattering the seeds, not knowing which ones are gonna sprout, but being then available when they do s- sprout. I don't want to give the impression that I just sit there and things come to me.
• 21:17
  Like, they, they don't. But I'm not close-minded in terms of it has to look like A, B, C, and D. I'm happy for it to look like any of that stuff. And- [laughs]...
• 21:27
  if, if, again, if it's, if it's in the soil of what your values are, then whatever springs up should, should be a match. Mm.
• 21:34
  I'm obsessed with this, and it is essentially how I've lived my life and my career too, 'cause you just don't know. I'm just like- Maybe that's why I joined Generalist World. [laughs] Yeah.
• 21:43
  A- again, magnets, though, right? Yeah. And like, I mean, I, I literally am a gardener. I, I, my, I did a post yesterday saying I'm, like, happiest when I'm just dirty, like grubby, in soil, in the garden.
• 21:56
  And there's so many metaphors that, like, cross over from, like, literally being in the garden to, like, how I live my life, and it sounds like how you live yours as well.
• 22:05
  I do wanna spend some time, if you're open to it, talking, opening that conversation a bit more about neurodiversity and what that's been like for you, because I think you hit the nail on the head that this can be an absolute superpower where, like, you're on these boards, you're juggling all these different things that outwardly looks like an amazing success, and you can also be crying in the stairwell that very same week.
• 22:29
  And the other reason I wanna bring it up is 'cause we have so many people.
• 22:32
  I don't have the data on this, like, I don't have, like, the scientific backing, but there is a big Venn diagram of people who are interested in Generalist World and people who are neurodiverse.
• 22:43
  There is, like, a big overlap. And so I wonder if we could frame it.
• 22:47
  You say that you are really high functioning, and I wonder if we could frame it around, like, what are some of the things that have worked for you to be able to be, you know, quote-unquote, "high functioning" and to make or have your neurospiciness become a superpower for you?
• 23:06
  Okay. So I'm gonna push back a wee bit 'cause I hate the language of superpower, but that, that's because I think it can be weaponized, and that's not what you're doing. Mm.
• 23:13
  But some people can weaponize it and, and see that... A- and it's not separate to me, it's, it's who I am. It's the, the, the good and the bad all- Mm... together. Not even good and bad, it's the...
• 23:26
  And then I believe that it's the environment that makes me personally feel more or less AuDHD and- Mm... so that's the, the social model of disability. I do not believe I am disabled. Mm.
• 23:40
  I believe there are environments that are disabling to me. But when I say high functioning, what I mean is I can go out in the world and pass. I actually have a...
• 23:49
  If people aren't watching this as well, I'm a Brown person. I'm, I'm mixed race. And it's always been interesting to me being mixed race because some people just think I am from, like, Italy or, or Greece or somewhere.
• 24:00
  Mm. And so I move through the world quite differently to people who have two Indian parents, for example. With my neurodiversity, people cannot see that. Mm.
• 24:10
  And so it's been an interesting thing for me about how and when I disclose.
• 24:16
  A- and I'd say the biggest thing for me about getting my diagnosis, 'cause obviously nothing really changes, you just get a label, it took off the layer of shame that I had been carrying for- Mm...
• 24:26
  you know, 30-something years when I couldn't do things, when I couldn't be like everybody else. I just no longer carry the shame. So, so a lot of the behaviors haven't changed, but I- Mm...
• 24:35
  now no longer think there's something wrong with me. And a phrase I come back to is that I am not a broken neurotypical person. I am a functioning AuDHD person. And-
• 24:50
  What has helped me is understanding my body knows an awful lot, you know? And I'm a, I'm a person in the, the brain, and I'm a person who likes gold stars and other people telling me that I've got a good job.
• 25:02
  And I've had a couple of periods of being self-employed, and the thing that I found hardest was no one was telling me I was doing a good job. And having
• 25:08
  had all my mental models formed up until the age of 18, where you're in school and someone else is responsible for deciding if you are good enough or not, leaving that environment and suddenly being like, "Oh, uh, I have to decide this for myself," just felt really weird.
• 25:21
  Mm-hmm. And I think I've been craving or searching for that, someone telling me I'm, I'm good enough, you know, my whole life.
• 25:28
  So what I learned when I learned this about myself is that I had spent a long time trying to shut down what my body was telling me, and now I try to hear the messages from my body.
• 25:40
  So I'm much more aware of when I'm starting to feel dysregulated, whereas before it would get to the point of shutdown. So I don't really melt down in that public external way. I tend to shut down.
• 25:51
  I am now much more conscious of when that is coming. Not always, but, but sometimes. And that means I can sometimes interrupt the flow, and I can regulate, reset, whereas before
• 26:02
  I would just leave or it would build up and build up, and then I would have a full weekend where I literally couldn't do anything. Mm. You know, get off my sofa. So it's helped me with spotting the signs.
• 26:14
  It has helped me with my energy. So I... And this is the hard thing about having autism and ID, A- ADHD. My ADHD wants me to be out all the time, absorbing all the novelty, doing all the new things. Yeah.
• 26:23
  And my autism is like, "No, but we wanna be home." [laughs] "And we wanna be routine, and we want things like that." Yeah. So now I'm really quite good.
• 26:32
  I was gonna say really good, but it's slipped a little bit, at managing my energy. So if I'm doing something during the day, I'm not doing something in the evening.
• 26:38
  If I know I have to do something during the evening- Mm... then I'm not doing, doing something during the day.
• 26:42
  Now I'm self-employed, I'm finding that harder because I want to say yes to all of the things, but I at least know when I'm veering off the track, and I know then the next day I'm gonna have to, to balance that.
• 26:51
  I'm also surrounding myself by other people who are on this journey, because it's actually interesting. And a lot of the times I'll read books or speak to people and I'm like, "Well, that's not my experience."
• 27:00
  One of my favorite sayings is, once you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.
• 27:05
  So it, it's not we're all the same, but actually sometimes hearing about how different people manage things is, is really helpful.
• 27:12
  Um, and just having a language to talk about, um, some of the traits that I have, so rejection sensitivity, time blindness. Even just having words for that- Mm... makes it feel less personal.
• 27:25
  It's less that, "Oh, I am crap because I X, Y, and Z." I'm able to go, "But that's an autistic trait, so that's just a, that's just a fact." It takes away the sting- Mm...
• 27:36
  of the failure that I might have associated with it. So certainly it's unlocked a lot for me, and I am- Mm... trying to lean into what I'm discovering about myself for the next however, I don't know, 20, 30, 40 years.
• 27:49
  However long I'll be working for. Amazing. I think that's really gonna hit home for people. And yeah, thank you for the challenge.
• 27:57
  I think when we're talking about any kind of like, you know, neurodiversity or sometimes even, like, gender or ethnicity or these things, it's like people are walking on eggshells 'cause they don't wanna say the right thing, but then no conversation happens.
• 28:11
  And so I really love when we can just have like, "Oh, that's a question, and this is how I see it." So just wanna say thank you. Yes.
• 28:20
  Well, and some people who are neurodi- divergent love the language of superpower, and it- Sure... came home to me before I knew this about myself.
• 28:27
  I was speaking to people about, um, I can't remember what it was exactly, but anyway, a bunch of people were telling me they like to be called disabled people, and a bunch of others were telling me they like to be called people with disabilities.
• 28:37
  Mm. And I was like, "Okay. Well, you get to decide." You know? Yeah. [laughs] There, there's not, we're not one homogenous group. So- Mm... yes, absolutely. Sitting from a place of what does this person want
• 28:48
  feel, feels, feels good. So yeah, I'm happy to share a different perspective. Love that.
• 28:52
  And I also wanted to call out that I think you said something along the lines of like, "I am not disabled, but the environments I'm in are disabling."
• 29:00
  And I think that's a really important distinction, and I wonder if anyone is listening to this who is running a company or who is running and building teams, is there any kind of, you know, two or three things that you find kind of tweaks they can make or ways that we can make environments less disabling?
• 29:19
  I think one of the things we're not very good at in the UK generally, massive generalization coming, is managing people, and particularly bigger organizations. Problems tend to get shunted to another, another place.
• 29:30
  But actually we need to be able to have honest conversations because like I just said, s- one person's, and I hate the language of reasonable adjustments actually, but one person's reasonable adjustment will not work for someone else.
• 29:40
  And before I had- Mm... my diagnosis, I had two people on a team I was managing, and I suspect now with hindsight, they were both neurodivergent and their, their needs differed.
• 29:48
  One person was a, a very verbose person who needed to, like, w- would not write an email that was less than about 15 paragraphs, and another person who it was all bullet points. And- Mm...
• 30:00
  had I tried to sit on high and made reasonable adjustments for them, it just would've been a compromise that suited nobody.
• 30:07
  So we had to get together as a team and figure out how are we gonna make this work so you get what you need and you get what you need.
• 30:13
  And that can be really difficult if you haven't created a culture where people can have conversations without fear of saying the wrong thing, without fear of being taken to a tribunal.
• 30:22
  So it really starts at the top, and back to that idea of values and what you thread through. But I think there are some simple things. So in meetings, I always appreciate when there's a little bit of space.
• 30:34
  And I, I say this as the person who's always got my hand up first, but I know es- especially when I'm excited about something, like I wanna say all of the things all of the time.
• 30:41
  So I really appreciate it when there's a bit of time, maybe even just 30 seconds, when everyone writes their ideas down on a Post-It note- Mm-hmm... before we start to speak.
• 30:48
  So that can be really helpful for people who both are a bit reticent and people like me who, who are, are chatterboxes. There's, there's something there about that.
• 30:55
  There's something about the flexibility that you can give people, and I have worked in retail where there was literally no flexibility to being CEO where I had lots of flexibility.
• 31:05
  When you are in the zone, you are gonna do your best work. You cannot switch that on and off. So is there a conversation you can have with your team about how
• 31:16
  they are allowed to operate in their zone of genius while recognizing they are a cog- Mm... and that their work might impact someone else's? So there's got to be a little bit of give and take.
• 31:26
  But again, that goes down to conversations and relationships, and people feeling like they are genuinely part of your team and not just a number that, that punches in.
• 31:34
  The other thing actually, just to flag, I was in an interview process recently, and I was asked to do a test that was not suitable for neurodivergent people, and I flagged it, but because it was an interview, I also said, "Look, I'm happy to, happy to do it," because again, gold star.
• 31:48
  Like, I'll do what you want me to do. And actually, s- before I even found out if I'd got the job or not, I wrote to them to say, "Look, that wasn't, that wasn't right." So making sure- Mm...
• 31:57
  that your, all your processes are accessible to everybody. Mm. People shouldn't have to ask for reasonable adjustments. Shall we talk about this in education?
• 32:05
  That if you lower the floor so that everybody can get in, everybody benefits from that. And yes, you can raise the ceiling, so you can have a low floor- Mm...
• 32:14
  and a high ceiling, rather than saying, "This is the size of the box you have to fit in." Mm.
• 32:18
  "And if you need special treatment, then we're gonna make a big deal and we're gonna, we're gonna adjust it like that for you."
• 32:23
  Let's make it so that everyone can thrive, and you'll find that even your high performers, even people who are not neurodivergent, even people who come from lots of different types of background will be able to give you their best work.
• 32:33
  Mm. Lower the floor, raise the ceiling. Yeah. I love it. I haven't heard that before.
• 32:38
  That's from Professor Jo Boaler, who is, does wonderful work in making maths and picking a lot of the negativity a lot of people have around maths. So yeah. Mm. Amazing.
• 32:48
  I want to spend some time hearing about what it is, do you a- what do you actually do? Like, you have this, like, wildly diverse background.
• 32:58
  You've worked across sectors, public, private, third sector charities, boards, and so now, I mean, you've given us some flavor that you're, you're working on this MBA.
• 33:08
  But when it comes to being self-employed, what does that mean? Well, what, what, what is your work? I'm laughing because I don't know. [laughs] I wish, I wish I did.
• 33:17
  I wish that I had a thing where I could say, "I can help you with your impact evaluation," or, "I can help you with business planning."
• 33:23
  What I tend to say is, I'm really good at building new things and fixing broken ones, and that could look like anything.
• 33:28
  So at the moment, I'm working with a charity that has been working with some young people to find out what might make mental health better in schools, and they've asked me to come in and support the young people to turn that idea into something real.
• 33:41
  So that is project management, and it's, um, participation, and it's all sorts of lovely things about how do we make this work.
• 33:48
  I'm also working with a private organization who are looking at their future as a employee-owned company, and they've asked me to figure out what...
• 33:56
  And that's much more traditional consultancy, so it's around research about different options they have.
• 34:00
  Again, it's values-based though, because the thing they said to me is most important is that their values and their legacy is protected, and that's why they've asked me to do the work rather than a typical kind of consultant.
• 34:10
  Mm. I'm also working with another organization who is looking at how we improve employability among neurodiverse populations, because a lot of- Mm... we, we know the statistics around that are, are quite horrific.
• 34:23
  All the work I've had so far tends to be either people who know me or people who know someone who knows me. So I'm coming in because they know that I'm gonna get the work done.
• 34:31
  For my business planning, that's a little bit concerning, 'cause I'm like, "Right, how, what, what happens in a year's time when I've exhausted all my, all my contacts come back to me?" My MBA finishes next summer.
• 34:40
  I decided that during my MBA I wanted to use this... It's about a day a week, so I wanted to use the rest of the week to explore different things of doing. I'm also working with a tech company, actually, who are, um...
• 34:51
  And that's really brilliant for me, 'cause I've not done any of that before.
• 34:53
  They're a startup, so my role is kind of a critical friend, to ask them, to take them out of the daily work that they are doing to, to bring them up, like up.
• 35:02
  Because obviously when you're building the thing, it can be really hard to get lost. So that's- Mm... a co- it's not even coaching, but yeah, critical friend is, is how I call that there. Um- Ooh, love that.
• 35:11
  But, but yeah, just different...
• 35:13
  And, and I guess it makes it really hard for people to refer me, because they, you know, if I, if I said I was an accountant and you were in a conversation with someone who wanted an accountant, they'd be able to hand me over.
• 35:22
  But I've decided to, to stick with the, I will help you build new things, I will help you fix broken ones, and see where that takes me for the next year. And then I either have to...
• 35:32
  I don't know, maybe I'll have to knuckle down. But at the moment, everywhere, you know, we're all happy. So, um, business, business consulting, but that makes it sound really boring, and what I do is not boring.
• 35:43
  Business consulting, but, like, via gardening. Yes. [laughs] You're a very not monocrop garden. Exactly. That is what we're, that's what we're doing.
• 35:52
  And is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really wish you had a chance to speak about while we've got people listening? Balance. I'm not very good at balance.
• 36:02
  As I say, I'm all in for everything that I do, and then I burn out, and then people say to me- Mm... "Well, don't be all in." I'm like, "I don't know any other way to be."
• 36:09
  So I absolutely have not got all this figured out. I try to schedule things. So I haven't got any schedule at the moment, which is why I'm saying it out loud as an accountability partner. But, like, exercise. Mm.
• 36:20
  And if I can schedule in, right, I'm gonna do this exercise on that day. If I know... One of my ADHD things is around, um, my, my fridge is always either empty or full.
• 36:31
  I- and I, I sometimes joke to people that I'm really good at work, but the cost is at home, like, where I'm really- Mm... really not very good. You know, you're, you're supposed to eat five bits of vegetables a day.
• 36:39
  Like, that's really difficult unless you plan for it. I find that very difficult unless I plan for it. So what are, what is my equivalent of my five bits of vegetables a day that I need in order to live a healthy life?
• 36:49
  And that means being outdoors every day. It means doing something to make my heart beat faster most days. It actually means socializing, and I find socializing really difficult.
• 37:00
  Um, if I'm socializing through work, I love that because I can talk about my work. If I'm just socializing with friends, I, I do find that harder, but I also know that I feel better when I do it.
• 37:09
  So scheduling in time with friends and having those anchor points of things that would easily get forgotten if I was allowed to just go off on my own tangent.
• 37:19
  Actually, I know that helps me live a healthier, happier life. I, I don't do those things without, without thoughtfulness and intentionality about it. So there's something around knowing what you need.
• 37:29
  I used to say, like, "I treat my daughter a lot better than I treat myself," and then I was like, "Okay, that's, that's not good.
• 37:34
  If I make sure she's got a healthy diet and lots of exercise, why would I not do that for myself?"
• 37:39
  Um, so yeah, sometimes just looking after ourselves, and not like the self-care, let's have a bubble bath type thing, but actually what do you need to, to human, um, feels like... Some people do it quite easily.
• 37:51
  I don't, and I'm still learning, and enjoy trying to view things with curiosity rather than judgment because I used to judge myself a lot, and now I'm just curious about, "Oh, I wonder why I did that," or, "I wonder why I didn't do that."
• 38:03
  And then that's a much better place to, to make a better decision next time. Yeah.
• 38:08
  This has been so wonderful, and I think that ending on that, on that final note of approaching something with curiosity rather than judgment, one of, one of my best friends and I very recently had, like, our first, not even falling out, we disagreed.
• 38:23
  We, we, we saw things from a different perspective, and when we sat down and we were like, "Oh, let's talk about this. Like, what, what happened? What did you see? What did I see?"
• 38:32
  And I went into that being like, "Wow, I'm so curious about what this is for our friendship." Because, like, conflict is a very normal, very healthy part of life, and relationships, and friendships and, and all.
• 38:46
  And I explicitly went in being like, "Oh, I'm really curious about this conflict," and, and she was like, "That's the most Millie thing to say ever."
• 38:55
  But I think it's like, if people are listening and you can apply this to work, personal, so many different facets of life, if you can approach it just being with an open mind, with curiosity, yeah, it can take you a really long way.
• 39:08
  I used to be really judgmental, black and white. Everything was good or bad, and there was nothing in between.
• 39:13
  And it got till about my, my early 30s and I started to see the gray, and that partly came from disagreeing with people that I loved- Mm... and realizing
• 39:27
  that there was no bad intent, but there was maybe a different conclusion. Mm-hmm. And that's something that I have, I wish I'd learned a bit sooner, but actually- Mm...
• 39:37
  now that I have it, I definitely try to see the different perspectives as different shades. Actually, I'm big into... sidebar, I'm big into this project on energies now, the energy transition.
• 39:46
  This is, uh, just a hobby thing.
• 39:48
  Um, and I'm interviewing different people, uh, in the energy transition space, from people who work in oil and gas, to people who work in community heat, to people who work in employability with people who've lost their jobs, and all I'm trying to do is gather their perspectives and to see, if you sit there, what do you see about the energy transition?
• 40:03
  If you sit there, what do you see? Because actually, we cannot solve any of the big problems in the world when we sit in this, "Better, but you're a bad guy." And, you know, how are we gonna come together?
• 40:13
  We need to come together to solve some of these problems, and we can't do that if we're, if we're too busy sitting on our high horse thinking that they're the problem and not looking, A, not looking at ourselves, but also not understanding the conclusion they've come to is perfectly logical- Yeah...
• 40:25
  from where they sit. Yeah. And that's, that's d- that, there, that is just as true as, as where I sit. Yay. This was amazing. [laughs] Thank you so much, Sara.
• 40:33
  We will share your links and everything in the show notes so people can get in touch, and if they have any follow-up questions, they can have a chat with you. Yeah, I'd love that.
• 40:42
  I'm g- really get inspiration from other people, so if anyone wants to... Like, LinkedIn is where I live. I don't have any other social media. But if anyone wants to come and chat to me, then I would love that.
• 40:50
  And obviously on the GW Slack, which I actually don't like Slack, and I have to say, one thing GW has done has got me into Slack, so. Wow. [laughs] I don't know if that's thank you or not thank you, but yeah. Yeah.
• 41:00
  [laughs] I check it every day. Oh, thank you so much, Sara.