Latest / Libido Lounge / Taboos in Sex: Exploring Fantasies and Breaking Stigmas with Dr. Toni Bear

Transcript

Taboos in Sex: Exploring Fantasies and Breaking Stigmas with Dr. Toni Bear · Libido Lounge

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  Welcome to the libido lounge where we focus on all things love, lust, and libido.
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  We believe that fabulous sex is important to health as exercise and good food.
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  Hey, everybody.
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  Welcome back to another episode of The Lounge.
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  I'm your libido host and expert, doctor Diane.
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  And I'm so excited to introduce you to a new friend of mine, a sexologist, an amazing,
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  amazing educator, coach, so many more things than just that.
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  This is doctor Toni Baer.
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  We're gonna have the best times today, doctor Toni.
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  Thank you so much for being here.
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  Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
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  I am super looking forward to this conversation.
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  Me too.
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  We're gonna talk so much about fantasy, about stigma, and many other things, but I really
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  think we should start with the story you were telling me as much as you're comfortable
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  sharing offline around how you got into this work, because I do think it's a unique entrance
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  into sex education and sex, coaching.
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  So can you tell us a little bit about your your history and what made you so interested in
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  exploring the world as a sex educator?
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  Sure.
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  Sure.
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  It you know, there are so many steps in this story, and I wanna make sure I keep it as short
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  as possible so we can talk about more things.
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  What I haven't told you is when I went to graduate school, they they said pick a topic
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  for your dissertation, and my area of expertise is education, teaching.
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  And they said pick a topic that you have a fire in your belly because life is going to happen
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  when you're in school, and it's very difficult to finish.
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  That most people, it isn't that they aren't smart enough.
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  It's that life gets in the way, and that's why they don't get their degree.
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  So my passion at the time was about my little sister and, you know, a trigger warning that,
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  she attempted suicide.
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  And she did so because she was coming out as gay.
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  And we had such an open minded family.
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  I couldn't understand why she would do that.
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  I was the person who found her, took her to the hospital.
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  So that topic is so dear to my heart that, young people shouldn't feel alone.
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  So this was in the 1980s.
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  Right?
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  So the dissertation was in the 90s, and my main purpose was helping young people, come out as
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  gay in a healthy way.
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  And that just progressed from one step to another and I looked at the stigmatization of
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  being different, having sexual fantasies that are different than what we perceive as the
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  mainstream way to be.
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  Right?
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  That we should be heterosexual, that we should be married, that we should have children.
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  And what if people are different?
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  So my interest in sexology, and I couldn't wait to retire after forty years of teaching so I
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  could do this full time in helping people talk about those fantasies, normalize those
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  fantasies, discuss how to communicate those fantasies with their partners, and not feel
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  that it's a secret that they needed to keep, and, and and how to be just okay with yourself.
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  And that's kind of the progression.
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  So I mostly, work with heterosexual, women that are partnered who have fantasies and need
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  someone to talk.
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  Yeah.
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  And I I think it's so important.
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  I wanna throw in the idea here too.
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  I've I see so many people, particularly women, where it comes down to even shame with things
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  like masturbation and even looking at their own masturbation and even looking at their own
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  female anatomy.
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  Right?
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  So I think the shame and the stigma is it's so deep and interwoven, and we're just not talking
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  about it.
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  So I'm so glad you're talking about this.
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  And tell us a little bit about how whether the stigma is from something like masturbation,
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  whether it's from a fantasy, whether it's from something else.
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  Like, how do you actually walk people through it, and where are there any, like, initial
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  things that you can teach us around the utility of fantasy for helping with breaking down some
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  of that shame?
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  Right.
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  They'd you know, I think fantasies are so important to have, To live in your mind and
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  expand your imagination, I think the creativity of what you think and feel helps with so many
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  different things.
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  To be able to talk to your spouse and say, you know, this really turns me on.
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  When I talk to men, and this is stereotypical, but this is my experience.
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  Like, I'm in a taxi in a different city going to the hotel, and I'm chit chatting with the
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  Uber driver, the taxi driver who's a man, and I tell them what I do, and they wanna give me the
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  phone number of their wife.
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  Like, if there's something that she's thinking, especially if it's a little kinky, my god,
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  please, you know, have her tell me that this is what we wanna do.
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  So I think it's, you know, why I work predominantly with women, I mean, 95% or more.
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  It's something that helps relationships, all partners, all genders, all orientations, and I
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  think it helps not only with relationships, it also helps, one's stimulation and one's
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  lubrication.
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  And there's just so much that, you know, living with these fantasies does.
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  And the shame that you mentioned can come from so many areas.
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  And most of my research, it predominantly comes in a I'm not stigmatizing religion, but a lot
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  of it comes from spiritual traditions that, an individual's taught that it's a bad thing.
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  In fact, I remember my mother so well as she talked to us as children if we touched anywhere
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  near genitalia.
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  The word would always be shame, shame.
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  She would actually use that word.
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  She did, you know, grow up as a foster child in a convent.
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  I mean, that helps explain kind of my background.
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  So if I can help anyone get past the hearing one's mother, say shame, shame in your head, I
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  would love, you know, to help anybody get past that because that's horrible.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  I I learned recently with a friend of mine that the pudendal if you look at the root word of
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  pudendal, which is the nerve artery and vein that go to the clitoris, for example, if you
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  look at the root word, the definition is something like body part to be ashamed of.
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  Ugh.
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  That is, like isn't that out of control?
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  So it's, like, even in our medical language, right, that it's it's shame.
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  So then, like, to bring it back to this concept of of fantasy, a curiosity I have in listening
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  to you is I feel like in in what I see sometimes in my work as well as what we were
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  talking about just a little while ago offline, was that something that can happen sometimes
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  for the enjoyment of intimacy is a a challenge sometimes with staying present in the moment
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  and actually enjoying the experience and actually be really allowing the body to feel
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  pleasure.
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  Have you found fantasy to to help bring more, like, presence?
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  And and and what else I guess I guess my other question is, what else beyond, say, getting out
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  of the stigma have you found that fantasy has has helped with for the individual or for the
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  partnered relationship?
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  Right.
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  I think about,
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  you know, just the expansion of possibility that, you know, if you perceive, sexual
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  relations to be, you know, the formula a, b, c, d, it gets awfully boring after a while.
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  You know, it's a wonderful feeling having sexual relations.
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  But the idea that you would experiment with different positions, that's simple.
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  I would argue that the majority of partners throughout The United States are not open to
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  trying something different.
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  I think your listeners, my listeners are a set of individuals that have a very open mind and
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  have taken interest in expanding possibility.
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  And I, you know, as I said, it it helps with just medical functioning, like body functioning
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  to relationships.
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  To the relationship, I think, if it is a religious block, your relationship with your
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  own religion.
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  My father said to me long time ago, I grew up in a very strict Catholic household, that, you
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  know, accept the parts of the religion that you can and realize that there's some parts of
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  every religion that are archaic in its tradition that do not match, at this point,
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  twenty first century life that, you know, don't let it, restrict the possibilities you have in
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  life, such as being a woman.
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  Right?
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  Such as, for myself, being gay.
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  Right?
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  All of those areas, if I would strictly interpret my religion, that I grew up in in
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  Catholicism, would restrict some of the possibilities of what I could experience in
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  one.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  I relate.
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  I grew up very, very strictly Catholic as well, so I relate to all of the, you know, all of the
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  dogma that gets sometimes put onto us that is archaic and as a way of overcoming that, I
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  think, is really valuable.
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  So do you have any advice?
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  I know working with you, you have all your it's much more complicated than we can cover on a
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  podcast.
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  But do you have any advice for just somebody that is, like, playing with fantasy in their
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  mind and they really wanna tell their partner, but they're so afraid that they're gonna be
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  shamed or judged or and they feel embarrassed about it?
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  Like, where does somebody even really begin to start with that?
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  Right.
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  Well, I just worked with a couple, and we tried something that worked really well.
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  So I'll share it with you.
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  Eight.
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  The I gave that individual a huge checklist with all these different kinds of sexual
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  activities, and some of them are a little further out.
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  They're a little kinky.
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  Right?
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  And and she shared it with her partner.
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  They had a nice sit down kinda dinner at some point, and, you know, the topic came up of, you
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  know, what are you reading?
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  What are you doing?
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  She said, oh my god.
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  I came across this checklist.
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  Right?
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  And this checklist, I just, was checking off my my fantasies and my thoughts of my sexuality,
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  and I thought it would be really fun if we did it together tonight, you know, if you have a
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  date.
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  And then you get an opportunity.
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  You know, you put it off on, like, a magazine that you found it in or you found it online,
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  and it just triggered something in you to do it.
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  You fell down one of those holes online.
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  And and what a great conversation starter.
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  Right?
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  And it worked out well for them anyhow.
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  They have some things they wanna try now.
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  And then I'm imagining because, like, what you were talking about earlier around people kinda
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  getting into that rut.
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  I know a lot of this a lot of us in the sexual coaching, medical therapy world call that,
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  like, the sexual script, right, where it's like, I do a, I do b, I do c, and then we're
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  done as you kinda described it.
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  So then are you finding then with an example like you just shared with us then that it's a
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  huge help for people as far as getting out of that script?
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  And and I'm also wondering because we were talking about, like, you know, libido offline.
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  How much do you find that people then when they're given permission to play with fantasy,
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  to drop that stigma, how much are you finding that that's actually then kinda providing that
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  spark and that fuel to bring passion back to the relationship?
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  Yeah.
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  It's, you know, for some individuals, it's a renaissance.
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  You know?
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  It's a whole new chapter, and it's exciting.
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  You remember when you first got together with your partner, and it's like, it's exciting,
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  it's a honeymoon, and, you know, things start getting ordinary.
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  They're still wonderful, but, to have that excitement again, like, people many times
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  accept the idea that it is inevitable that your libido is going to decrease or it's inevitable
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  that your interest in your partner is going to change over time.
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  Everybody talks about that.
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  That, you know, well, you know, they're more like a companion now.
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  I love them, and I love taking trips with them.
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  But then the emphasis no longer is on sexuality.
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  And you and I have spoken before about how important it is, and you have the medical side
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  of how, you know, sexually engaging with with someone helps you, your mind, your blood flow,
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  your body, your health in general.
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  And, why wouldn't you continue being sexual because you take care of yourself in diet and
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  exercise, and this is another very important part of our our our entire health.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm wondering then because I think, like, in medicine, you know, and talking about medicine,
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  there's some level of individuality, right, where it's like, oh, one person's libido low
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  libido might be low testosterone.
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  Another might be stress.
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  Another might be pelvic floor.
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  It might be something to do with their relationship.
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  So I imagine when it comes to, hey, our fantasy stories.
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  Right?
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  Like, obviously, there is gonna be such a huge difference where one person's fantasy, like you
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  said, it might just be like, hey.
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  Flip me over, and let's do a different position.
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  And another person, it could be something very, very, very, you know, kinky or down the the
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  fetish world.
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  So how do you how do you begin in your work?
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  I'm very curious.
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  Like, start teasing apart for people, like and and help make it safe for them to go down,
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  like, whatever fantasy world is and really feel safe to explore that?
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  Like, where does safety come into the picture?
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  Even be, before safety, we talk about consent.
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  Yeah.
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  K?
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  So consent is, not an option.
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  Right?
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  Both individuals need to consent to trying something or doing something.
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  You don't want to engage in your fantasy by surprise one night.
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  Right?
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  Safety is another huge issue.
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  I mean, to use a very simple example, many individuals, in fact, it's in the top 10 of
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  women's top 10 fantasies every year, is to be bound.
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  Right?
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  Some kind of hold me down or tie me up.
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  And just using rope around one's wrist is very dangerous for, nerve damage.
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  Like, it's it's you have to know what you're doing and how you're doing.
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  So when I'm talking to my clients, you know, I'll recommend if if your partner is open to
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  this and you wanna be tied up, why don't you try a scarf first, right, not a rope.
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  You know?
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  With rope, you need rope safety, scissors.
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  Right?
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  So just something very simple as you wanna be tied up in, you know, 02/2024 when we're doing
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  this interview.
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  That is pretty tame in in most relationships.
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  You know?
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  And I you know, at this point in my life, I don't even think of that as key, but it is.
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  It is you know, the definition of kink is, something out of the norm, and the norm for
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  each couple is different.
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  Right?
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  Each generation is different, you know, to my parents' generation that was born closer to the
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  turn of the twentieth century.
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  You know, what was normal was missionary.
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  What's normal to my generation, and I'm in my sixties now, is to have different kinds of
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  positions.
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  But what's normal to somebody in their forties might be oral sex.
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  Like, that's, like, normal.
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  Right?
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  So, you know, with as time goes on, we become in The United States more accepting of doing a
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  variety of things sexually.
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  So fantasies really take a a huge, you know, continuum of possibility.
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  And, you know, if one of the greatest, I think, challenges with fantasies is fantasizing about
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  someone other than your partner.
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  And, again, it's in the top 10 fantasies.
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  Fantasizing about an authority figure outside of your relationship, whether it's like a
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  principal kind of idea or a priest or, you know, like like and many of those fantasy