Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / Cancer Doesn't Get the Last Vote | Deb Krier on Surviving Stage 4 Cancer | Episode 49
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Imagine being told you have stage four cancer. Now imagine discovering that diagnosis was only the beginning. More cancer, dozens of surgeries, septic shock. Moments when the people around you weren't simply wondering when you were going home, they were wondering whether you were going home at all. Deb has lived through all of it. But somewhere along the way, survival stopped being the only goal. Because there's a difference between spending your life trying not to die And deciding what you're going to do with the life still here to live. And Deb learned something else along the way. When doctors, circumstances, fear, cancer, and even death itself. seem to be making decisions about your future, sometimes you have to remind everybody of one important thing. Excuse me, I get a vote. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill, where we have real conversations about resilience, transformation, and what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, and we have to figure out what comes next. I'm your host, Kelsey Dunbar, co-founder of Suffer to Tougher, and today's conversation is one that I've really been looking forward to. My guest is Deb Krier, an entrepreneur, communications and marketing professional, speaker, advocate, and longtime podcast host whose show the business power hour has surpassed. 1,000 episodes. Man, if I could ever get there, right? But there's another part of Deb's life that dramatically changed the direction of her work. In 2015, Deb was diagnosed with stage four HER2-positive breast cancer. Since then, her journey has included additional cancers, dozens of surgeries, septic shock, and experiences that brought her extraordinarily close to death. Today, She's taken those experiences and turned them into advocacy and support through Trying not to die.live, including work around the unique challenges business owners and executives face when serious illness collides with careers, companies, employees, families, and responsibilities that don't simply disappear because you've received a diagnosis. Deb, welcome to Rebuild and Fulfill. I'm really glad you're here. Deb Krier: my gosh, Kelsey, this is gonna be so much fun. I have been looking forward to chatting with you because we're gonna have a great discussion. But wow, my bio sounds scary. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): It it can be, which is why you're so fascinating. And so I've obviously done some homework on you and there are about 15 different directions I could take this conversation, right? Deb Krier: We could be here for hours and hours. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Absolutely. And and I that just tells me I'm gonna have to be bringing you back to here more and more. So I'm I'm planning for that. So but I do think we have to start with the moment when your life divided into a before and after. So take me back to 2015. Who was Deb before the diagnosis and what happened when you learned you had stage four breast cancer? Deb Krier: it's it's weird. It's hard to remember what I was like before then. but it is definitely a before and after. I think I was much more happy go lucky. you know, hey, I'll just leap in, you know, whatever happens, happens. And initially I was diagnosed with stage zero, which is the okay, we're just gonna watch it type of of cancer. And so I didn't get an oncologist for several months. And then, you know, things changed and and they said, it's actually stage three, which is fairly serious. And then several months later, they said, Nope, it's stage four. and stage four is not considered curable. Now it can go away and never come back, which is, you know, obviously what we really hope for. But it was something that was very eye-opening. You know, I worked for an oncologist, which is a cancer doctor, many years ago. And I also worked for the American Cancer Society. So I knew just enough to really be dangerous. I knew what those words were and what they meant. you know, and and so it was one of those things where it was like a wall, right? That just smacked me right in the face. And you know, and and really do think, well, crud, now what? you know, because you we've we all, including myself, have known people who have died from cancer. You know, and and so that is the first thing that really goes through your head is, I'm gonna die. they're really funny, we're all gonna die. I mean but but you know, it was like, okay, well, my expiration date got moved up. you know, and and so how was I gonna deal with it? And then I did get catastrophically sick and and that really changed things, you know, even further. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. So one of the reasons I wanted to start there is because once someone receives a diagnosis like yours, it's very easy for the rest of us to start seeing the diagnosis before we see the person. Sudden suddenly you're a cancer patient, but Deb Krier: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): you didn't stop being Deb. You still had relationships, work, responsibilities, plans, a personality, big one Deb Krier: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): by the way. Probably things that made you laugh on days when everyone around you assumed they're Couldn't possibly be anything funny. Cancer became a part of your life. It didn't suddenly become who you were. And I think Deb Krier: Right, right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): that's something that people on the outside don't always understand. So we Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): use a lot of language around cancer, fighter, warrior, battle, stay positive. Sometimes those words can be empowering, but I imagine Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): sometimes they can also put another burden on somebody who's already caring enough. Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So what Deb Krier: Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): do people who haven't experienced something like this misunderstand about actually living with a serious cancer diagnosis? Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hey. Well, you're so right that that it is not who I am. It is not my identity. It's, to me, I think of it as it's like having red hair, right? It's just another one of those descriptors that is there. And is it more serious? Sure. And is my red hair fake? Ugh. You know, we're gonna call it enhanced. That's what my husband says. but you know We i I think one of the things that that I heard a lot of, and I know people mean well, right? but you get the I knew so and so that had the same exact diagnosis and yada yada yada, and they died. Right? And so they just kind of immediately put that tag on you. Or the opposite happens, they have absolutely no idea what to say, so they don't say anything. And then We assume, my gosh, they don't love us. They don't care. And it's not that. I did lose friends. It was very strange. I had friends that just totally ghosted me and I don't know why. And I wasn't going to put them on the spot by saying, hey, don't you care? Right. You know, that was would not. But you know, it was we all, you know, just don't and don't know what to say. And I did have one person that she's and she told me that. She said, I didn't know what to say. And I said, Say you're sorry. Right? and then I can go on with however I want to discuss it. You know, maybe I'm, you know, want to discuss it that day. Someday I just want to say thank you and and go on. But don't act like it didn't happen and isn't happening. you know, and even even to say, I don't know what to say. That's okay also. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. So with everybody around you that cared about you so much wanting to fix you or wanting to say Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): the right thing, what what did you actually need from the people around you and what do you wish they had understood without Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): you having to explain it? Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. it was it. I really needed people to understand that my world was not ending and to stop treating me like my world was ending. you know, and and again, people they meant well, but it was one of those things where sometimes I just needed them to be there, not to do anything. and and I spent, you you mentioned, came close to death several times. I really did. there were three times where my husband was told no. and and one time the the oncologist and the surgeon argued because he said I'm not gonna the surgeon said I'm not gonna even try because she'll be dead in three hours. And that was when I was like, excuse me, I get to vote on this. you know, and and but I spent seven weeks in the hospital. And initially I didn't want anybody to come. because I looked horrible. I was bald. I had a an NG tube. So one of those uggy tubes sticking out of my nose, right? And I was on oxygen. At one point I had eight, count them, eight IVs running. I mean, you know, I was was this horrible, awful looking person. And I didn't want to put people through that. You know, I didn't want and then I finally decided this is stupid. I need their support. And so there were times where I just had people come and I would tell them, bring a book, because I'm gonna fall asleep. You know, but to just have somebody there was, you know, and then if I wanted to talk, I did. You know, and I told him, I said, feel free to ask questions. That's that's fine. But just be there. you know, and and but ask first. And now here's the other important thing. If you have said you are coming, do it. You know, there were a couple of times where people who I, you know, treasured and was thinking, my gosh, they're gonna visit. I'd spiff myself up as best as I could, and they never showed. Now things happen. I get it, traffic's bad, your kid throws up. I mean, whatever it is, just let me know. Hey, you know, I'm really sorry. But don't just don't do anything because that hurt more than people being, you know, people ignoring me. And and so, you know, keep your word. And even if it's just I think it's gonna be too hard for me today. That's okay too. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, it I can't imagine what that's like to be in a hospital for seven weeks and you have someone that offers to come and keep you company, if just to listen to you, spend time with you just so that you don't feel so alone and then they don't show up. I can't believe that they wouldn't understand how important that would Deb Krier: Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): be for you in that situation. Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So I I apologize on their behalf. I know that sounds silly, but it just Deb Krier: Well thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): that's rough. So I do want to go back to the whole excuse me, I get to vote. Because obviously I I love that. I when we first spoke and we talked a little bit about your story, Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): right away I was like, man, that's awesome. Because there's something much bigger inside those six words than medicine. So where's there a point where you had to learn that advocating for yourself wasn't being difficult? It was actually and or I should say and it wasn't being ungrateful. It wasn't pretending you knew more than the professionals treating you. It was just actually something you needed to do. Deb Krier: There definitely was and multiple times. and and and we have, I think they call it the the white coat syndrome, right? Where a doctor, a medical person tells us something and we go, yes. You know, we don't want to question because they're the really smart people. They went to school for a hundred years. you know, and but we absolutely have to advocate for ourselves. And you know, I even if it's to say, no, I'm not gonna do that. or I want a second opinion. I did get a second opinion. She, agreed with the the course of treatment that that I had decided on. And and so I went merrily along that way. But we also have to advocate, especially if we want something a little bit different. there's there's a lot of alternative options out there now. Some of them are a little whack-a-doodle, but there's a lot that are very, very good. And and finally, mainstream medical care here in the States is starting to pay attention to things like that. But, I I know a lot of people who have done homeopathic, natural path, and they're still here, or at least their quality of life was was good. all sorts of things. And so sometimes it is just saying, no, I'm not gonna do that. Or this is what I want. and and you and I were were chatting before the program about AI. And AI has gotten to be especially now really scary, right? When I launch AI, it will say, Do you wish to put in your medical information? No, no, no. But at the same point, it is a you know, can use it to research. Just don't use it to say, Hey, this is my course of treatment. you know, because again, AI is pulling from everything the good, the bad, the ugly. you know, and and so educate yourself. Because our medical people are extremely busy, right? and and so they're not going to have the time to to do everything that that you you know to ask every question and give every option. one of the reasons I love my oncologist, and I've been going there for 11 years, there is a sign in every office that says, do not leave this room if all your questions have not been answered. and and sometimes that means you need to take somebody else. my husband went with me on some of the first major appointments because I was not going to remember what I wanted to ask. And he had different things that he wanted to ask. So, you know, if if I I strongly encourage folks, don't go alone. And if you have to go alone, record it and don't let them tell you you can't do that. That is your right to be able to to in cr in to record. your conversation with the doctor. Have your questions in advance. Have them written down because your little brain goes when you get in there. so have those things written down. But yeah, it's it they're treating maybe 50 people in a day. You're the only you. And and so make sure that you are advocating for yourself. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): That was an incredible couple minutes of of soundbite right there that I think everyone should take something away from. I I think there's a lesson in that that extends far beyond cancer. There's a difference between believing we should be able to control everything and then recognizing that we still have agency inside circumstances we never chose. And you've certainly had circumstances you didn't choose. You've been through dozens of surgeries, septic shock, and situations where survival wasn't some hypothetical possibility anymore, but rather than walking everybody through your medical chart, I'm much more interested in something else. What did those experiences do to you? Deb Krier: They made me tougher. I I love the the the concept that you do suffer for tougher, right? now we don't want to suffer. You know, nobody wants to raise their hand and say, sure, I'll do that. But we it did make me tougher. you know, it it it made me advocate more for myself and for others. It made me learn to to to speak out for myself, which is kind of funny. I mean, you know, people would assume that I do. No, you know, I don't always. And so, I think it is something where we we do, I hate to say a bit grow from it. you know, and and you know, and and make sure that you're surrounding yourself with the right people. You know, I there are some people that I went, noop, I'm done with you, you know, for whatever reason. you know, and and but yeah, it definitely made me tougher. It made me think, wow, you know, I'm not gonna have a bucket list anymore. We're gonna do those things. you know, and and you know, for example, you know, as you know, 2027 is rapidly approaching, we have a trip possibly to Hawaii planned and a and a and our third trip to Alaska planned. Don't put stuff off. You don't know what's gonna happen. And I still know I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, right? but don't put stuff off. And even more importantly, and you and I really talked about this a lot, tell people you love them and appreciate them. because you don't know when you can't. And so don't hesitate to tell people, I love you. Thank you. All those those gratitude things that we think, ugh, that's mushy. No. You know, let people know that you appreciate them and that you care for them. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. Again, love love that information. And did you have a particular moment that you kind of turned that corner and you just decided whatever happens from here, I'm not gonna see my life the same way again? And that was what kind of started the the attitude that you have now. Deb Krier: always been like this, you know, but I I I can't really say there was a specific moment. I think it was more just gradual oi ve, you know. and but it at you know, it really did at some point where I thought, okay, you know, what are we gonna do from here? And and I'll be honest, part of it was my business coach who who told me, she said, and her name is is Kathleen Caldwell, she's absolutely fabulous. I was trying to put all this away, right? You know, even though I'm still in treatment. I go in every 21 days. This is something I'm gonna be dealing with obviously forever. But I was wanting to ignore it. And she told me, nah in fact I think she shook her finger at me. And and she said, You didn't go through everything you went through without using it to help others. And I went, really? But you know, I think that is something that sometimes Other people are the people who point us in that that right direction. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I I think with some of the things you've gone through and the diagnosis that you've had, a lot of people have the conversation within themselves, how do I get my old life back? And then all of a sudden you realize and it it the the message starts Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): to become, what am I going to do with the life I have now? And that kind of takes over. So Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): what's your feeling on that? Deb Krier: most definitely. it's I do think, well, can't I go back 12 years? You know, can I can I go back to that person before? And you know, and and it but I then I think, but I would have missed so much. I mean, right? You know, there's a there's a sign on my wall. I'm gonna turn and look at it. It's part of a song, Garth Brooks, big Garth Brooks fan, right? Our lives are better left to chance. I could have missed the pain, but I'd had to have missed the dance. Right? and and there is that. We are whoever we are now because of what has happened to us. You know, people always say, if you could go back to the 16-year-old you and give them advice, I always think, my God, I hated 16. and so you know, my advice to 16, Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I'm with ya. Deb Krier: you know, that probably would have just been, it'll be okay. Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. So the next thing I want to talk about is the the website and the mentality behind it, the trying not to die versus actually living. So there's there's so the the website again, trying not to die dot live. There's there's obviously some humor in that name, which I appreciate, but underneath the humor is a pretty serious distinction. When did trying not to die stop being enough? Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. My mother is responsible for that one. I am an only child and she, you know, came rushing from Kansas when I went into septic shock and they said she's got hours. I can't imagine that phone call that my husband had to make. And and you know, and on either side, right? And so it was great. She came, she stayed. She stayed four and a half months. but one of the times when I one of my care providers left the the hotel the hotel. Really I did kind of think of it as a hotel, but the hospital, right? She left my hospital room. I got the disapproving mother look, right? And I went, and she said, you did not say thank you. And I said, for God's sakes, Mom, I'm trying to not die here. But you know, thinking about it later, it really was that, you know, are we trying to not die, no matter what our circumstance is, or are we trying to live? And you know, and I don't care if you know you've got three hours or 30 years or you know, let's see, whatever, yeah, yeah, that 30 years for me would be about the right amount, right? but you know, how are we living our life? Is it just safe? Is it not taking any risks? And I get it, those things are scary. But are we trying to not die or are we really trying to live? And and how are we going to do that? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Okay. So what people don't know yet and what I really would love to get into here is that the live itself has meaning. So that you it that's your acronym. So lead your tribe, Deb Krier: It does. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): invigorate your soul, voice your feelings, elevate your mindset. So walk me through those because none Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): of those sound exclusively like lessons for someone living with cancer. Deb Krier: Right. and and I'll be honest, I can't take credit for that. I hired somebody and was working with them. This was before AI, right? That we did this. And so it really is, you need to lead. And we've been talking about that. That's the advocacy part. You are the person in charge. you know, and and so you need to lead that. You know, whether it's your family, whether it's your doctors, whoever it is, you've got to, you've got to be in charge. That is not to say, don't ask for help. but but ask for it on your terms. And then invigorate is the I, put yourself first. I I tell people it's it's the the airplane rule, right? They always tell you put your mask on first before you help someone else. And I was having that discussion with somebody the other day. She's she's facing some challenges with some of her family. And I said, you've got to remember to take care of yourself. And she said, but that's so hard right now. and and but maybe it's five minutes. I'm not saying you'll run away from home. Take five minutes and and invigorate your soul. And how are you gonna do that? obviously humor for me is a big way that I invigorate my soul, but it's also by meeting people like you. you know, and and making sure that I have positive people in my life, as opposed to the my god, you're gonna die, the sky is falling, right? you know, all of those, you know, and th those people are there. I know they're there, but that's all right. I don't have to surround myself with them. and then voice your feelings. Nobody reads your mind. You know, and and so you have to be honest. And I some days that honest part is to say, Nope, today is a day I'm not doing anything. You know. I've also you know told some people I'm done, you know, raising my hand and always volunteering. Somebody else can do these things. But voice your feelings. It's okay. And it's okay to be selfish. I don't care if you have cancer or not. Again, take care of yourself and then elevate your mindset because we have to believe that we will be all right no matter what. you know, I mentioned that I worked for an oncologist. Absolutely wonderful, delightful man. In this process, I discovered that he had passed away. And then I finally did the math and thought, well, yeah. Because it was 40 years ago that I worked with him. But he would tell his patients: 99% of this journey is in your head. If you think you're going to live, you will live. If you think you're going to die, you will die. And he would tell them, you know, maybe that's 50 years, maybe that's five hours. But again, how are you going to live during that time? you know, and yeah, it's is it gonna be rough? Of course. I've had thirty-four surgeries where they've had me under anesthesia. That kind of kills a lot of brain cells. but you know, and and all the pain, you know, I have chronic pain. I have some, you know, several other things. So there are times where I'm grumpy, where I'm cranky, but I'm still gonna be fine, even though I don't like that word. Fine to me is one of those those four little words that starts with F. People know if if if they ask how you doing, and and I say fine. Uh-oh. Right? My care team, when they ask how I am, I'm hunky dory. And I think my grandmother used to use that term. But yeah, you know, how are you going to live whatever time you've got left? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. So what I love about the acronym and the meaning behind it is the fact that those aren't lessons for cancer patients. Those are lessons about being human. Deb Krier: Everybody Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And and unfortunately, even when you're dealing with something as serious as cancer, the rest of being human doesn't stop. Your career doesn't disappear, your bills don't disappear, your relationships don't disappear. And if you own a business or leading an organization, people depend on you. Deb Krier: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Don't disappear either. So that's where I think your personal experience and your professional background intersect in a really interesting way. Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So what happens when someone is simultaneously dealing with I have cancer and people that still depend on me? Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Right. Well, and that's all of us, right? no matter what, we have people who depend on us. but there are people who have more people who depend on us. you know, when they told me, hey, this is gonna be much more serious, it's a stage three diagnosis, I literally looked at my doctor and I said, I'm sorry, I don't have time for that. And she looked at me like, right. But when we're in a position where maybe we're the the leader of a team or an executive, we own our own business, you know, whatever it is, one of the things we think is I can't tell anybody because they're going to think I can't do my job. I can't run this company. I can't do whatever it is. And you might need to take a break. I mean, obviously, you know, there's there's so many different levels of cancer diagnosis. And the vast majority, many times people never even know that you went through that. But you know, it really you feel so alone. you know, I did a Facebook post and I'm very open on Facebook. Anybody can follow me and and, you know, and and I you know, talk about my journey a lot. And I but I realize many people aren't like that. But I had posted and somebody who I didn't even know, I mean, he just commented on somebody else's post. He said, I have never felt so alone in my life. It broke your heart, right? I don't even know who that guy is. And it was just like, but what was wonderful were the number of people who responded and said, I don't know you, but how can I help? And you know, that comes back to that. Ask for help. Be open to it. But you know, we're the business leader. We're supposed to know it all. We're supposed to do it all. We can't ask for help. People will think we're weak. You know, I'm I'm the you know I'm the the head of my church. I'm whatever it is. No. Asking for help and I know you get this because of what you do. Asking for help is the strongest thing you can do. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, so how hard was it for you to not just accept help, but even to be able to let people know what was going on and the thought that you might not be able to care for people the same way that you always had? Deb Krier: It was hard. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie. you know, I am this strong, independent, redheaded kid, type A, always in charge, right? You know, I am my mother's child. you know, anybody who knew my mother went, yeah, mm-hmm, chip off the old block. And so it was hard to to you know say, Hey, I need help. Whether it was something, you know, simple or something more complicated, but you know, because I was raised. you you are, you're strong, you're independent, you don't need people. you know, we laugh at the all the various generations, right? I'm at I'm at the tail end of the baby boomer generation. And my mother really did raise me to be very independent and to not accept help. And she was very much like that. you know, she just she was gonna do it, she was gonna do it by herself. And and and I learned that lesson. And I'm not sure that was a real good lesson to have learned. but but yeah, it is it is not a weakness at all to say that you need help. you know, and and it's funny because counterintuitive to that is, you know, we you mentioned the word warrior. It's on my arm. It says that on my arm. and but you know, right when I was first diagnosed, somebody sent me something that says fate whispers to the warrior, you cannot withstand the storm. And the warrior responds, I am the storm. But but you know, like I said, it says on my arm. It's the, you know, that is the imagery. it's the the warrior who is there. But I've also learned a warrior is never alone. You know, the the warrior always has people supporting them, you know, and and so that's that's the thing is, you know, it's okay. It's not going to diminish you. Is it still hard for me sometimes? Yes. I don't always want to tell people today's a bad day. I'm just because they're depending on me, right? Back to what you were saying. But I also was talking with somebody and they said, when somebody offers to help, and our immediate reaction is, no. Right. And part of mine is, they wouldn't do it as good as me, right? That's a type A, right? not only might they do it as good, they're might do it better. Oikes, that's a that's a hard thing. But somebody said it's a gift to them to say, hey, I trust you. I know you will do a good job with this. Whatever it is. I mean, I had to have people come walk me. I needed, you know, I needed help walking. And the doctors had said, you need to get outside, vitamin D, sunshine, fresh air, all that stuff. And so you need to walk. Well, I couldn't walk by myself. And so they're like walker, right? Can you imagine me? but people had to come and help me walk just in case I went thud. and so to ask for help, and and so of course I do it in my typical way, I post on Facebook, walker I need people to come walk me 15 minutes a day, leash provided. And but yeah, it was perfectly fine to say I need that. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): You are such a spitfire. your attitude is is so incredible. So speaking of that attitude, you kind of took that back to the workplace. So why don't you tell me about your work around executive continuity during cancer and why you believe this is a conversation businesses aren't having enough. Deb Krier: You know, I think large businesses do because they have staff, they have, you know, employee assistance programs, they have all of those various things. You know, I work with the small businesses, you know, and the entrepreneurs who are thinking, you know, now what? And and so I don't talk to them about medical. That no, uh-uh, no, that is, you know, aside from telling them make sure you have your questions answered, things like that. But it's how's your business going to survive this? Do you have something like a business continuity plan? if something were to happen to you, would people, would somebody, for me it's my spouse, you know, for other people, it's you know, other team members, people like that, would they know how to get a hold of your clients? Would they know where your bank is? You know, who do you bank with? All of those things that we should, as business owners, have. We should have all that stuff, but we don't. It's all in our heads, right? and and so, you know, how have you planned that? How are you gonna Do that D-word, that delegate. that comes back to, my God, I can't have anybody else do it because they're not going to do it as good as I do. No, delegate. It's perfectly fine. My free you up to do something else, right? and show your team, show the people you work with again that you trust them. You hired them because they were smart people. Now let them be smart people. you know, and and so I work with people to get past that. there are some that are gonna say, I don't want to go back to that. Okay, then let's transition you out of it, whatever that entails. You know, that's one thing you mentioned, my business podcast. I have met some fabulous people who can work with people to sell businesses to completely shut them down. I mean, you know, my business is me. Nobody's gonna want to buy it, but how do I shut it down? you know, and and all of those things. And it is very much about. Taking control, because I think that is the biggest thing when you're told you have cancer or another serious diagnosis, you feel like you have no control. So where are we going to get some of that control back? in a reasonable way, not, you know, hey, I'm gonna ignore this and and not deal with it. you know, and and one of the the things that I work with people about is communication, right? That is my background. I'm in, you know, employee communication. And so how do you tell people, hey, this is what's going on? Obviously, I was very open. when I told my clients, here's what's going on. I knew there was gonna be several options. They could say, now I have a marketing firm. And so I knew that they could say, Okay, you can't do the job, you're fired. Right? how they need somebody who's gonna be there. Or they could have said, We want we're gonna hire somebody else so you can focus on yourself. Okay, that would have been nice. My clients, God bless them. All said, what can we do to help? and and so but also you've got staff, you've got other people, you don't have to tell them every single detail. But I tell you what, they are smart and they're going to know something is going on. And if you don't communicate at least a little bit, they start making things up. And they never make them up in a good way. but part of this too, you know, I tell people say back to the business continuity plan. So you have these procedures, you have other people who do things, all of those things. Well, good golly, you might actually be able to go on vacation Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Mm. Deb Krier: and you know and and not be watching your phone all the time or responding to emails. You know, it's it's a good thing to to to get these things out where other people can be doing them. Or you can say, okay, I'm just gonna take a month off or two weeks or one week or whatever, and it'll be okay. you know, but examine what needs to be examined in your business to keep it going. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I I love that we're having this part of the conversation because it takes something incredibly personal and gives people something practical to think about. So Deb Krier: Right. Mm-hmm. And it is practical. Stuff that we should be doing anyway to keep our business solvent. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): One hundred percent. but now for just a minute, I I want to shift from organizations back to the individuals for a minute because somebody listening to this right now probably has a Deb in their life. Maybe it's cancer, maybe another serious diagnosis, maybe it's somebody going through something completely different where we desperately want to help and Deb Krier: Right. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): we have absolutely no idea what to say. We're so afraid of saying the wrong thing that sometimes Deb Krier: Right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): we either say something unhelpful or we say nothing at all. So help us get better at this. What do you wish people would stop saying to someone with cancer and what can we say or do instead? Deb Krier: Right. You know, and I know you deal with with people who have mental health challenges. And and you know, and ooh, we really don't want to talk about those. you know, like I said, it's okay to say, I just don't know what to do or say. You know, know that I'm here for you. You know, I'm not gonna ignore it. I was talking to somebody one time who his he had a child who passed away. Now I am not a parent, but I cannot imagine that level of grief, right? And and this had been, you know, 10. fifteen years before. But I saw it in his on in somewhere in his bio and and I just said, I'm very sorry that that happened to you. And he looked at me and he said, Thank you. Most people won't mention it. So it's like she never existed. You know, and so not mentioning it is like it doesn't exist. And it does. you know, so it's okay like I said, it's okay to say, I'm really sorry. This is is what's going through. One of the things, and this is one where people really do mean well, but it doesn't come out right. Kelsey, just tell me if there's anything I can do to help. That's a great we all say that. I say that. but my you know, our little brains have shorted out. So be specific. You know, if if if it's a personal thing, you know, them in a in a personal aspect, can I bring you dinner? I knew somebody they their friend showed up and cleaned her house. She said I was mortified for about five minutes and then I thought, no, the house needs cleaned. you know, offer to take their kids somewhere. Somebody offered to take our dogs to the vet. You know. again, can I come sit with you? Can I bring you a meal? Now meals get a little tricky. People brought me meals and I really did so much appreciate that. But it was nothing I could eat for a variety. But my husband thought it was great fun, so that was okay. and and if you're not somewhere close, organize meal trains, things like that. But be specific. Not just what can I do to help? Because I don't know. But if you say, can I bring dinner on Thursday night? I might say, Ugh, Thursday's not a good day. Could we do Friday? Right? you know, and so just be specific. If it's a a working relationship, are there projects I can take on for you? Are there calls I can be doing? you know, that gets a little trickier, but again, you can you say, what can I, you know, there are some things because we know some things, you know, you know, hey Kelsey, can I can I offer to to to do some of your podcasts? People did that for me. They said, hey, you know, and and I did. I had, you know, guest hosts for a while. So there are ways where where people can be specific and offer to help. And really, you know, I we kind of joked about this earlier. Don't tell somebody. Hey, so and so and so and so went through this and they died. Or they had this horrible complication. And I try really hard. I don't tell people, you know, this and this and this happened to me. It's just, you know, hey, you know, been there, done that. you know, and and so yeah, we I really don't want to know that your grandma died of the same thing. You know. I'll feel bad, but I don't need to hear about it. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. I I think that's incredibly useful information because most people aren't trying to get it wrong. They just haven't been taught how to show up in a situation like this. And Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): we've spent a lot of this conversation talking about things cancer changed, things it interrupted, things it took from you. But I don't want that to be the only side of your story. Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): So I'm gonna turn the question completely around. Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): What did cancer not get to take from Deb Krier? Deb Krier: It did not take my wicked sense of humor. we have have joked about that. In fact, if anything, it increased it. and and it just it didn't take me. You know, my third cancer was thyroid cancer. And one of the times when I was in for a checkup, I heard them out in the hall say the thyroid cancer is in room four. And I went out and I said, excuse me. Now I understand HIPAA, I get all those things, right? But I said, please don't minimize me to be just my diagnosis. I am so much more than that. And and it had never occurred to him. that was just how they referred to patients. And again, I understand why. But, you know, it didn't, you know, having cancer did not get rid of Deb Kreer. you know, it made me different physically, mentally, all sorts of things. But that happens no matter what as we go through life. and and so yeah, it just It it really did in in many cases, like I said, my my humor is even more so. And part of that might be because it's like I don't care. Now I'm you know, I'm I have appropriate humor, right? But yeah, you know, some of it is I'm I'm gonna live life the way I want to live life. And if you don't like that, well, blessings upon you and be on your merry little way. you know, or or as we say here in the South, well, bless your heart. you know, but yeah, it's it did not take me away. I am still me. little little different, but that's all right. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I love how that was very Dolly of you. That that sounded very Dolly with that impersonation. That was Deb Krier: Mm. I know. I was crushed, right? Yeah. And look, look back to and I'm waving my arm for those who are only listening online. I have a butterfly on my arm. Now I did not in as part of my tattoo. That was not for Dolly, but it is very, you know, butterflies are a symbol of life. And I know that was something that Dolly always really had, you know, and and so what is, you know, think of you don't have to get a tattoo, but what is your symbol of life? you know, and and so yeah, those those are okay. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Alright, so we're about to to mix the personal and professional right here. So Deb Krier: Mm-hmm, uh-huh. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): you've spent a lot of time being interviewed about your story, but you've also done more than a thousand episodes of your own show. So you know what it's like to sit on both sides of the microphone. So I'm gonna take advantage of that before I let you go. Deb Krier: Oi. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): And so you've probably heard every predictable cancer question imaginable. So Deb Krier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): What's something you wish interviewers were curious enough to ask you, but almost nobody ever does? Deb Krier: Well, I think in particular, especially because of what you do, how did this affect you mentally? Right? You know, and and I and I, you know, some and and some have kind of asked it and I and we've we've, you know, gone there with this, but you know, it is something because we don't want to hear the bad stuff. We really don't want to hear the bad stuff. and it has affected me. You know, i there the the grief, the guilt. Right? the not just the why did this happen to me and what did I do to deserve it, but I feel guilt over putting other people through this. all I have to do is grimace in pain, and my husband gets like, What what what? I hate that. I hate that. and and so it is okay to ask those serious questions, and not everybody does, because first of all, they don't have the training that that you have. but It's okay, you I'll answer those. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. Well one of the things I love about the way you tell your story is that you don't tiptoe around any of it. Cancer is a part of your story. You talk about it openly. You find humor in it, you find strength in it, and you found ways to use what you've been through to help other people. But it's also very clear that cancer doesn't get to be the whole story. Today we talked about voice, advocacy, work, relationships, humor, asking for what you need, showing up for somebody who's hurting. And making sure that while we're busy dealing with everything life throws at us, we don't forget to actually live it. And I think you bring a combination of perspective, honesty, humor, and a little bit of attitude to that message that is uniquely yours. I have really enjoyed this conversation, everything you brought to it. So thank you for being here. Deb Krier: Kelsey, thank you. And it's more than a little bit of attitude. thank you. I truly am very honored to have been your guest. Hopefully this has been a great conversation that others will will benefit from. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Well, the honor is has been all mine for sure. And for everybody listening, we'll have links in the show notes for Deb's work and trying not to die. And everything we talked about today, so you can learn more and connect with her. I think there's something in this conversation for all of us. Whether cancer has touched your life or not, we spend a tremendous amount of time worrying about things we can't control. Deb's story is a powerful reminder that losing control of The circumstances doesn't mean losing the voice inside them. You can ask questions, you can advocate for yourself, you can tell people what you need, you can change your mind, you can decide what matters now. And most importantly, you can choose to do more with the time you're given than simply protect it. You can actually live it. So thanks for spending some of your time with us today. And until next time, keep rebuilding, keep moving forward, and don't spend so much time trying not to lose your life. that you forget to live in. We'll see you next time on Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care.