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How do we stop bracing? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: The three of us, Yulia, Polina, and Irina, are exploring what Life In Flow and Flow In Life is.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we experiment, test our diverse hypotheses, and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: the conversation itself becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind, body and energy flow together.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Life In Flow podcast.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Polina.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm facilitating today.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joined by my two magical co-hosts, Yulia and Irina.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, ladies.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Today, we're going to be exploring
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: The question of what allows humans to stop bracing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I will define what I mean by bracing shortly.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to start with sharing why I'm engaging with this topic today.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I have been reflecting lately on the difference between belonging,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: which we just did an episode on, and it was very rich.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Those of you who haven't checked it out yet, please go ahead and do so.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been reflecting on the difference between belonging somewhere
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: with someone,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: with a group, versus actually being able to relax there.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of us can technically feel that sense of belonging in
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: a family,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: in a relationship,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: in a group,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: in a workplace,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: even in a friendship,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: and still feel internally braced, vigilant, or subtly on guard.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And by bracing,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean when the body and the nervous system starts to internally prepare
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: for tension,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: for conflict, hurt, rejection, discomfort, or predictability, unpredictability.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And often that happens before anything bad has even occurred.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: In any specific very visual or physical cues.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So almost like a part of the system is already preparing to protect itself.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's often quite automatic and under the surface.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I really want to put a little bit of attention on it,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: engage with it,
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: see what that's about,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: see what each of us, what our individual experiences are with that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also started realizing that safety may not actually be one thing.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not even a direct feeling.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a combination of things that allow the nervous system to stop monitoring.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also noticed that there are spaces where nothing overtly bad is happening,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: but my system still feels like it can't fully soften.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there are other moments when something unexpectedly allows me to relax,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: even without any certainty being part of the equation.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a bit of a curious paradox that I've been observing and engaging with
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: and I wanna bring into our awareness and play with a little bit today.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I really would love to explore what actually allows humans to stop racing
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: and stay present within themselves, with each other, with life.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So as we usually do, we're gonna do a game
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this game is going to be just as a way of getting into this topic and into the field.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to do a little game.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: The game is going to be a moment of relaxation and a moment of bracing.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Each person is going to briefly share one moment where their system relaxed,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: one moment where their system became braced or vigilant.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to go into a full story.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: What we're looking to really describe here is what changed internally?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: What happened in the body?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: What happened in your attention?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: What did the nervous system start doing?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: What shifted first even?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can capture that because sequence is also something I'm really curious
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: about in terms of my own You know,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: the way my system processes,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: but also I'm curious about how other people process those sequential shifts.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll go one at a time and we'll share
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: both a moment of relaxation and
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: then followed by the moment of bracing so that we could have a side
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: by side comparison of how does your system show up with this?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, who's ready to start?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have a question.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So do we want to share the context or we're just like exploring the somatic experience?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can share the context if it helps you to frame the somatic experience,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not about the story so much as like we're really tuning into
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: the somatic experience.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: feel free to share a little bit of the story if that helps us to understand
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: the somatic experience.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that question.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: How about you starting?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for asking.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to pass.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I first want to see what the two of you come up with.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Something you said to be braced.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Literally.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, great.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you start then.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about the bracing that just happened.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: What changed internally?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: What happened in the body?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was a joke.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was a joke.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, are you relaxed?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can you say you're relaxed?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Relaxation, somebody can experience that?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yulia, share with us.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm under focus.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: My nervous system is definitely scanning for signs of
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: threat or safety.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, hmm, how should we go about this?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Should we take it as
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: trying to put us into a corner?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or should we take it more lightly?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: See a friendly vibe there.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: In the here and now you mean?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Could you describe a little bit more of the like the somatic experience of that?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes for me,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: It starts, contraction, or the bracing starts in my stomach.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then it goes in a wave.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the wave starts radiating and I can feel how my chest and my breath get
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: affected.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes also my face.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: My face, I can totally sense how there is a shift in the muscles
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: appearance.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the color of the skin is like pinkish or in extreme cases even it's flashing.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if it lasts for too long, then it also sets in my head.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: The tension goes up into my head and then it stays there.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And for example,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: there were a few times where I was in a conversation,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: like in a session on Zoom with someone for an hour,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: maybe an hour and a half, where the tension stayed there.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't go.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ended up really feeling how
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: it's just something inside of my skull is throbbing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not something, but blood.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there's that sensation that the skull is tight, too tight for whatever is now there.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: What about moments of relaxation when you're with other humans or in situations?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Shall we do first a circle of tension and then go to relaxation?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was actually wondering if we could do it side by side so we could have
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: a comparison from one person.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But sure, if you feel like we do a circle of the bracing, sure, we could do that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ira, would you share your moment of bracing and what that feels like in your system?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Since we started talking about it as a game,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: but it came to my mind that it's true
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: that very often this tension in me
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: arises
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: when
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Consciously or unconsciously expect some external evaluation of myself and of my performance.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I need to deliver certain results.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think in me,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: unlike In Yulia's case,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: in me it begins in the area of the heart, so it's like this...
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the chest it's not so much not, it's just...
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Probably like some tension that sort of shuts down the breathing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a knot, this does feel like a knot in my back.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's still in this area of the heart, but it's on the back and it's...
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: It goes like this, and then it goes down into the stomach.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: If it's really very present and the stress,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: the anxiety is very strong, then it might go down into the stomach.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Also, just like the overall tension, just the sensation that the whole body gets tense.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where I think I feel the most, it's like the...
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: The sensation that my body is made of wood.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: in the area of the shoulders,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: which I...
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Really notice only after, like,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: when the time passes, like,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I really stay like this for several hours and then I realize,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: like, oh my god, what happens with my shoulders?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a stiffness that you're describing, yeah?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's stiffness and...
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like the sensation of weight.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really like I have this
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: like wooden desk
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: here on my shoulders.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: For me, the moments of bracing are usually...
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: They start with a tension that I feel in my usually solar plexus.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Then it goes to my shoulders,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: kind of like what you're describing, Ira, like this stiffness and this tension.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I also, there's some kind of scanning that starts in my heart space.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And also at the same time,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think that my focus starts to really tighten and Become more and more focused
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: with this kind of the scanning thing that's also happening in my mind.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But also like this kind of energetic scanning the environment and also scanning myself.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole thing is just full of tense...
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Energy, alertness, and vigilance.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really heightened,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: a heightened,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: very energetically draining,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know, a lot of energy is being used in that state experience.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So similar to both of you in some ways and maybe a little bit different than others.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Thank you for sharing.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: May I add,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just realized that I have another symptom,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: which curiously enough,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: associate the most with the word bracing, bracing actually.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the titan jaw.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this is that what I have been struggling with.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is, I think that I'm aware of the least.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't notice it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I have been struggling with for many months lately,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm like learning to relax and deliberately and I don't succeed in that.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really like the goosh.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm preparing to fight.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that image.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think of some men who have that really well-developed lower jaw,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I think they're mostly always associated with the fighters, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like a good fighter has a big jaw.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes sense to me that the jaw would somehow get engaged in the bracing mechanism.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And also I want to add that my face also does something.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really cool Yul that you described what your face does
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: because maybe I didn't necessarily associate bracing very consciously
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: to what my face does.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: But right now I am.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what my face does is it goes into a mask.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that others cannot tell that I am really tense or scared or like really vigilant
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: or really unsure.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it gives me like this, all my muscles go into like this, you will not read what's happening.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: No one will see what's happening.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to hide and I'm going to scan.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Were you going to say something, Yulia?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: I also found, realized something,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: something else, another thing that happens.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's my tongue actually gets tense.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: My tongue wants to touch the upper teeth and to be touching the upper teeth.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And through that, it stays tense and it can stay tense for a long time.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And this,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: with other
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: traces of bracing or expressions of bracing,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty good in how I can process them,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: shake them off if needed, like if stuff has really accumulated.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: With the tongue, Oh my God, it's been like a challenge.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it takes a really big
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: event
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: organized and guided
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: for the tongue
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: to not only let go in the moment,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: But to stay like that further on, because finally I can let go in the moment.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, when I go to sleep, I also relax.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: But it easily comes back to this position when,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know, the tension has been accumulating for a while.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing that, because that is something I have been
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I learned from one of the courses that I'm in that if you put your tongue up against
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: the roof of your mouth,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: not the teeth,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: but of the roof of your mouth,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: it actually helps to regulate the nervous system back down to safety.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Have you also come across that?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not for you, but are you actually touching the teeth?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I specifically heard that you need to move it further away from the teeth
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: and really just be touching the soft part of the roof of the mouth.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so for you, it doesn't...
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: I alternate between the two.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but not for me.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know what else actually comes up for me?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've now just...
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've just realized that depending on the type of bracing that's happening, if it's...
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: More physically, like survivally based, like there's actual danger.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: My thighs get activated.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I actually can feel it now.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's tension in my thighs, like my legs get activated.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But strangely enough, when it's tension that is more relational, like...
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something is happening that I'm not sure about and there's a bracing that happens.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I actually lose sensation of my legs and all the energy goes into like all of
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: the perceptive energy and physical sensation goes more like into the either
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: the middle of my body or really into my head.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it really could cause even like a headache,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: but I really lose sensation in my lower extremities,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: like as if my legs are not there at all.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting how many things are happening and keep shifting
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: as this reaction progresses, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it unleashes a chain of events.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: A chain of events that are like really physically present and yet
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not aware of what's happening because I'm so much in the data processing aspect
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: of what's going on.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I only feel the effects of it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, even talking about it, I can already feel some tension in my shoulders.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I only feel the effects of it on the body after the fact.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, thank you for...
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know this didn't feel much like a game, so...
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do the game version.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get some generative energy going before we jump into the questions.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we just do popcorn style of what comes up for you when I say
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: the word safety in your body?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just like one word, two words, a phrase, and let's just go around the room.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, safety.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Lightness.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Safety.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for you, Pauline?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Heart activation.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Ira?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Warm.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: One more.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Safety.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Fluidity.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Freedom.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Softness.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Embrace.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Dance.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: For me, embrace.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It has this energetic quality in the hands as if I'm being embraced.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yul?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, something in the word safety doesn't agree with me.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling like this word is causing me to slightly,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not brace, but it's like, what are you about?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Safety even sounds very strangely.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Safety.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Safety.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it now reminds me of this safe where something is locked and it's impossible
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: to penetrate.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, welcome to that.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Something is locked and unable to be penetrated.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now let's do lack of safety.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: What does that feel like?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Just a light touch, lack of safety.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: My proprioceptors right away get turned on, like they get hypervigilant.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have this like, oh, they're on, they're doing something.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Heart rate increases.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Heart rate what?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Increases.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: In crisis, okay.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm asking myself questions like what is lack of safety?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: How lacking is it?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: How is it lacking?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it lacking?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like a threat?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it just like
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: something
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: that
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: something
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Light, yes, that just wants to be noticed.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because lack of safety, I mean, it can also be about curiosity.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to reframe.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to ask you to engage with the word unsafe, but not with your mind, with your body.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: When I say unsafe,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just allow your body to speak to like what sensation comes up for it?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Unsafe.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Something in my chest slightly vibrates.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: And wants to be expressed in a
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: stronger format than usual.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ira, unsafe?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: My body does this.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: I probably need to describe it to the listeners who don't look at us.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I just
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: felt like I'm an animal that prepares for an attack.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so my body assumes this posture of animal attack.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, unsafe...
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: The arms really get activated as if I'm preparing to push something away or
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: to protect myself from something.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you, ladies.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to move into the first question that I'd like to pose and engage with.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that question is...
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: What actually allows your nervous system to relax around another person?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we're really tracking what changes in the body and the system.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or like what qualities create relaxation.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So feel free to share like a really short one or two sentence story
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: if you need context,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: but really we're looking for What changes in the body
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: that allows your nervous system to relax around another person?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can start.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually been asking myself this question for a while.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't have yet a concrete answer, but I will share how I track it in my system.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: when I step into a conversation with a person that I inherently feel safe with,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: my attention in my body
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's a softening and there is a heart activation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a lot of room in my actual headspace.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And not just in my headspace, but actually even like around my body to...
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: To have thoughts, to have fluidity, to have engagement, to have a range of emotions.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have a range of things accessible to me and it feels like this expansive thing
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: in my energy body.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it also feels like there's no tightening.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just fully present.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm available.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: There feels like, you know, that all my organs are available.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm available.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's a relaxation.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's an invitation.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: It feels good.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: When you ask the question,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: because you frame it as like what helps your body to relax in the presence
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: of another person or something like that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So like the first thing that came to my mind and I will have to go back to
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: the concepts of human design.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So like the first thing that came to my mind is this...
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: This energy of recognition.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: When I feel recognized as I am, it's...
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: How to describe it?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's...
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like...
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: The signal I receive from within,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: so like it comes from that other person that I am not just accepted,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: but somehow that
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: the word that comes to my mind is the term
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: that Paulina likes using, that like I'm rendered beautiful by that person.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Love that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it all happens, like it's really perceived at the energetical level.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what it does to my nervous system,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: to my body, to my whole being is that everything begins to flourish.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like my energy begins to sparkle and it opens up like a flower.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all the things that I have described when we were talking about
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: the rexations,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: this lightness
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: and warmth, but it also like it's really I open up like a flower and
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it allows myself not just the expansion, but really the sparkling.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So like this expression of my inner energy to the outside, it all happens on its own.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: some log gets released in the energetical system that
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: let...
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's all of this out.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really like allowing the flourishing.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for bringing me back to the primary question I asked at the beginning,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: which I also didn't answer.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: But can you tell me again...
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: What allows you to get into the space one more time?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because you had such a beautiful description of this flowering that I lost where you started.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I said that it was the energy of recognition.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, energy of recognition, yes.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to add that that's also the element of...
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: That allows me to get into what I described as the state.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry I missed that part.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is an energy of recognition and
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: welcoming.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel welcome.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a sense that...
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what comes up, we will be able to jive, flow,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: process, question, stay with it.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more of a welcoming that allows my nervous system to really relax into
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: that state of being available, as I described.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for bringing that back to the primary thing I was asking about, Ira.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yul, how about you?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: What...
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: What actually allows your nervous system to relax around another person?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: perceived presence,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: also dynamic presence, like the presence that is constantly adjusting.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And to me,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Am I allowed my shape?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: That is the question at the center of it.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: And also the shape that is constantly shifting.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: And to allow my shifting shape, the other person has to also be shifting shape.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm thinking about some interactions that have this sense of
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: safety, I'm not sure.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Did you say safety, Polin?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say safety, I don't believe right now, but I mean... Was there a sense of safety?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: In the question I asked, what actually allows your nervous system to relax around another?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so it's
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: creating a couple of experiences together
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: when we're dynamically shifting shapes and everyone is aware of it and allowing it.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not aware of it to the extent that we can express it in words,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: but we're very aware of each other and how we're passing it on and engaging
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: with each other and co-creating.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And would you mind sharing...
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the shape you're describing,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: the fact that you're allowed to have your shape and the shifting of the shape,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: is there a somatic aspect to it?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tie it a little bit more to the... What is the physical sensation of that?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: There is a sense of fluidity in the whole body, I would say.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: There is
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: lightness, maybe some sparkling also that is very easy
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: emerge.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the shape shifting is about the
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Expansion, but also contraction.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: So basically the
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: cycles of contraction and expansion, they flow rather than brace.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: There is this wave.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So for Yulia, I heard that
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: you feel rendered as beautiful by the other person.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then everything begins to flourish.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like your energy begins to sparkle and open up.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's an expansion like more in this area, right?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: In this kind of area of your body, of your system.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the energy of recognition,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: is the energy of recognition more centered somewhere specifically in the body or?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think I receive it in the heart area.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: The heart area.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Yulia,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: you have a sense of this
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: shape that is expanding and contracting,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: but it's a wave type of sensation, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily a wave type of sensation, but the wave doesn't get impeded.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's contraction, expansion, there is flow to it.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: There isn't bracing.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you're tuning in more to the
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a distinction in there I'm trying to capture.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I asked you about a wave in terms of like,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, shape, and you said, no, it's not about the wave like that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: movement itself between bracing and expanding.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Not between bracing and expanding,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: but between the regular, the healthy contraction and expansion.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like your breath flows without you holding your breath or without it becoming shallow.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: It has this quality of flow in
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: exhaling and inhaling, but also doing it with the...
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: With the environment and the other person.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I would want to bring something in, a little story before I ask the next question.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have been reflecting on seagulls lately a lot
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: because I've been observing them intently on the beach a lot.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when I watch them, I notice that almost never do they seem relaxed around each other.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: They stay packed closely together on the beach,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: but they're constantly monitoring,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: competing, posturing, stealing food, reacting to tiny movements.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's this constant sense of agitation and vigilance in their system.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even if they're trying to lay on the sand and sleep
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: and They never fully close their eyes and just their eyes stay open.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're constantly flattering up.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're constantly monitoring, even in the state of perceived rest.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what struck me was that they still stay together,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: even though this is how their system is responding
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: and how their social behaviors are set up.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: So not because they necessarily trust one another,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: but because survival depends on remaining connected to this group and to
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: the information that flows between the group because you could actually see the flow
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: of the information.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then also the food source and basically collective awareness is what is happening.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Really visible.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it made me wonder how much we humans also do this.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: How many environments and relationships and workplaces, families, social systems?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do we stay inside?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where part of us never really fully feels relaxed.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: We stay in these...
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Relationships or situations,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: even though we can't quite ever feel relaxed,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: but we've adapted so deeply to the vigilance that's present in those relationships
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: or interactions that we really stop noticing it.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: And side note, hawks and ospreys actually are very different as I observe them.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're solitary and they're very calm and they're not constantly socially monitoring.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're just themselves.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a sense of peace and calm when I observe them.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if I'm observing seagulls,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always feeling like I'm bracing for them,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: with them as I'm observing them because of the lack of rest in their systems.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it was an interesting observation that I was also connecting to our discussion today.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the next question I want to engage with is,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: can you belong somewhere and still not feel safe there?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think yes, you can, for example, not feel safe together with the group you belong with.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: Can you say more?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is your own experience with this
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: specifically?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: For example, I think it's a very common sensation nowadays.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: We live in the world that many of us feel that it's falling apart.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it produces very high tension and anxiety
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: in the individual nervous system,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: but also in the collective nervous system.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it also heightens the sensation of...
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Belonging to the group or with the group,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: whatever preposition we want to use,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: because actually this feeling of danger
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: and some of those dangers we expect in it
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: and some of them it's the danger itself is that we don't know what to expect from
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: the world, from the future.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this decomposition of
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: High level of uncertainty that makes us all put in this state of tension.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: So this state of the vigilance that I think also hatens the instinct for activation of this...
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: like the mechanisms of identification,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know, who belongs to my group and who is the enemy.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this internal system of identification,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: like these are my people, these are not my people.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I will get this sensation.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: So like, these are my people.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I belong with this group, but together as a group, we all feel totally unsafe.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And where,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: where is that on safety,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: lack of safety, where, where do you feel that in your system as you describe this?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so I'm, With my people.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: These are my people.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: I belong.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: But together as a group, we feel unsafe or we're breathing.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like in me, it's all the same symptoms.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the tension here,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: the knot in the back, the knot in the stomach, the tight shoulders, the tight jars.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yul?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, first I just,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: I want to say that we are different than birds,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: so
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've read a book, The Bird's Way, that went a lot into
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like looking at birds and their behavior and what happens from
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: a human centric point of view.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: And there is like a lot of things that actually humans cannot comprehend
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: because they cannot have that experience.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, some of the birds, what is relaxation to them, right?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: They fly and they sleep at the same time.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is, you know, for some birds, how their nervous system functions.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: they might,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: this might be kind of like for the seagulls,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: the relaxation,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: what you're observing,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: but, you know, the way that it registered in you, Not necessarily.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then the birds of prey,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there is like, they stay put and they, you know, like monitor for so long.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, does it make them?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't know.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I want to say.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because somehow after reading that book,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: And describes a lot of behaviors that we humans consider.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, it's almost evil.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like cuckoos that bring their chicks into, or eggs rather, into the smaller birds' nests.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then their chicks are bigger and they end up killing the other chicks.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: But all of that, it actually, like, there is a lot behind it.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's how
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: Things are co-created or new behaviors are co-created and things like that.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I just felt that I wanted to say that.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: And as far as belonging,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to think.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: For the longest time in my life, I used to feel like I truly belonged nowhere.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started to belong to places because they promised me some places
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: that I could belong with them.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I never fully felt,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: not relaxed,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: but like genuinely being, like belonging with, like, oh, wow, it's just so mine.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just shaping or shifting my shape as I wish,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: of course, you shape, shifting shape, Always affects the other in some way.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's me kind of like going into some utopia.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I can just, oh,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: there are places where it can just like be shape-shifting and shape-shifting
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: and shape-shifting and all will be just so fun because I think it's,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: yeah, it's a utopia that things like that never happened.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: today you belong with one thing, at least the human thing, and tomorrow you don't.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I agree with Iria that there is a lot of the tension and the uncertainty and
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: the perceived danger
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: That is kind of like ubiquitous.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: It makes people just go for this formal sense of belonging.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, oh yes, I belong with these people and therefore I can be safe.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, in my experiences of having been there,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: You just go for that because you think you need to.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, probably with all humans, it's a dynamic feeling.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's a feeling that can be shifting.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: You just need to be present.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: And of course there are like cases for some,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: for a lot of people actually,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: when they just choose to be part of groups,
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: not getting a sense of belonging, but being braced with a group at all times.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you are in a group where today you feel like you belong with this group,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just like not something that is to be taken for granted.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's like an experience to be engaged with like,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: okay, I'm enjoying this flow now and let's see how it unfolds.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever experienced a sense of belonging,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: let's say not in your past,
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: because you said you felt like you've never belonged anywhere,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: but in your recent experiences,
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: have you had a sense of, yes, I belong here, but I still don't feel safe?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: Lately, I filtered such belongings.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: I filtered through them.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you mean?
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm no longer in these groups.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you did have at least some experience of being in these groups, yes?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: That you technically belong?
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you're bracing, right?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: You don't feel safe.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, bracing and safe.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: The word safe does not sit well with me.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: I have to say, I'm still somehow reacting to the word safe.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like this word.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, unsafe.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you technically belong, but you're feeling unsafe.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or you technically belong,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: but you can sense that you're in a bracing experience,
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: like physically, somatically in your system.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's vigilance.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's vigilance.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like you technically belong,
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: but you are in a vigilant state that I've experienced, yeah.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because we didn't really touch on this aspect when we were talking about belonging
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: in the previous episode.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we kind of assumed that if you belong, then everything's good.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Your system can relax.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we assumed it overall,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean, we didn't really engage with that aspect of belonging.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can belong somewhere,
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: but you could also be in a highly vigilant state and something is,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: making your system brace and you're
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: really not feeling safe
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: or whatever word is most usable for you.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I think about belonging, my hope is that when I belong is I feel really safe.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: That belonging comes with safety.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's my like biggest,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: hope for experiencing with other humans or,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: and especially with humans that I feel like I do belong or we're on the same page.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's, there's synergy.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, there's, there is, um, A place to really be able to relax.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so because I've lately,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have experienced some,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: some spaces of belonging,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: some people where I feel like I belong, and I also feel a sense of relaxation.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me now be able to really reflect on like more heightened reflection of, of,
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: of,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of situations and people where I technically belong with,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: but I really feel hypervigilant around them.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like the minute I step in somewhere that I technically belong in,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: but I just, my whole system goes into a bracing response.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think in the last episode, we're mostly focused on belonging with life.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we touched on people,
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit of people,
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: but A lot more that this opportunity of belonging
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: with life is affording this belonging with people even
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: if people are not very welcoming or present or like not recognizing you
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: and things like that.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so like I'm thinking for example
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think we have a kind of like a relationship where I feel like I belong.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: We've even had like really such cool experiences when I was in California in three days.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then we do regularly, you know, like race with each other.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm saying I'm not like,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: this is somehow not my expectation that belonging means always feeling safe.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why maybe I don't like the word safe.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: Bracing, yes.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: By bracing, not necessarily am I feeling unsafe.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling, you know, something
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: Needs to be addressed,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: something needs attention,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: something in me wants to,
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: well, wants to react, probably it feels unsafe at some level.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, like it's not in my, safe is not how I imagine it necessarily.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that distinction and that discernment that you just brought in.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: So bracing, that's true, bracing does not necessarily have to be tied to safety.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think in my system, it actually really is.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can brace for probably a variety of reasons,
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: but one of the main ones would be a perceived lack of safety
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: and a hypervigilance.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: It really does go to that survival instinct for me.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is about safety.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, Am I safe?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: But can you tell me a little bit more?
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so for you, bracing can also be, can you give me more of like what causes bracing for you?
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like more specifics.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like something that is
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's maybe it's not yet categorized as unsafe or danger.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's just something that needs to be put that,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know, it asks for some focus or curiosity
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: or space.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Bracing maybe like a type of storytelling?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, so actually I'm really tracking what you're describing in my system
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm now starting to see that curiosity can also cause a bracing response.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was Thinking the bracing is primarily caused by like more things are more in
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: the like in the danger zone.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: But actually now I'm seeing that bracing sometimes even happens
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: when it's something exciting or there's curiosity or something interesting.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can also go into a bracing response.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I guess my system is registering it as a potential change.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's unsure of what resources are going to be required for it, right?
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: So at the nervous system level, this actually makes total sense.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know if I really made that connection before that I'm actually bracing it.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it really feels that way in the system, the way I've described my pathway for it.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for bringing that in.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ir, how about you?
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also questioning this equation that belonging should equal to safety.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: At least in my case,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that was the experience I'm looking for when I'm looking for the sense
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: of belonging.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's more that it does produce a certain Relaxation of the nervous system
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: when I find this fit that it's like that
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the piece of the puzzle
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: that finds its own place and I feel that I fit here but At the same time,
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: keeping apart the situation when I'm talking about feeling braced together.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we belong together, but we are braced together against some external danger.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking, for example, and the case of curiosity fits very well here.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of, for example, an entrepreneurial environment.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's imagine a person who thrives in these situations when there is a competition,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: then I need to compete against other people, I need to compete for better results.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: There is this very extreme nervous system activation because I need to be vigilant.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be very active.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be aggressive to achieve my goals.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I may perceive,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: I may read the environment as the environment of the competition that I need
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: to be vigilant against,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: but at the same time,
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel that I fit here, like I feel like a fission of water in this environment.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I belong here, I belong with this group, but this group makes me vigilant.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is exactly why I feel that I belong.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and in this case,
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: you are describing something that would be very activating for the system
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: because there are survival instincts that are part of competition, right?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: And achievement,
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: especially if you're competing for scarce resources,
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: which would be like only one person gets to be the top dog in this competition,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a scarce resource.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that it's really about the scarcity and the survival because this game,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's about more the adrenaline and the expression of the aggression.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily about survival.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when you're talking about thriving,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: That does bring like on the nervous system level for me that brings up things
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: that are associated with survival and competition and other people
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: and there's only one person that can win.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: If
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: there is like a competition in this classical meaning of the word
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: because competition can mean that people just get Getting motivated and inspired
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_02: by each other.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of how they go.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: Motivated and inspired feels different in my system, as you described that, Yulia.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the way Ira set up that example,
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: that had me register a different sense in my nervous system about what
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: that would take, what that would entail.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: but that only may say to us that you probably wouldn't thrive in this environment,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: but it doesn't mean that the other person wouldn't.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not talking about whether I or the other person would thrive in the environment.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about what does the nervous system do?
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: but what I was arguing about is that what I'm describing, I'm...
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have enough research data on how it's all reflected in
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: the body biologically,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: so I won't argue how much of it is really the instinct for survival and how much
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: of it is the expression of human creativity.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which I like that you're not bringing in research data because I'm not asking
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: for research data.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't care about the research data.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I care about us engaging with our internal experience when we talk about it.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So like
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: in my experience, like this expression of aggression is not necessarily about survival.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I mean.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's exactly about like The creativity of life.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I need to get activated because I want to earn my million of dollars.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain to me why it goes into the aggression category for you,
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: into the space of aggression in your system as you describe this?
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is about aggression.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: How?
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: In your system, though?
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just this is the drive what gets you into action.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's aggression.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_01: The aggression doesn't necessarily mean that I want to kill someone or to hit another person.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: The aggression is like, sex is the expression of aggression.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are you making a blanket statement or are you saying for you,
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: sex, and not always, maybe sometimes, is an expression of aggression?
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh...
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is the...
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Probably it's a blanket statement.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak to your experience directly so that I have more sense of you?
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like to you, if you were put in an environment of
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurship...
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: For example, I need to make the clarification.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that person who would thrive in this environment.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying that the sense of belonging does not necessarily mean the looking for safety.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, so hold on.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Can I invite us for a pause?
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Something in me started to brace.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Something in me also started to brace.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I started feeling it here.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: These bones.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I started being very aware of these bones.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not usually ever aware of these bones.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are these?
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: The collarbones?
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Yul, for bringing in our new facilitation trick when there is tension in the system.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, Pauline, maybe can you share with us what your take on this is?
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: About the question, can you still belong somewhere and still not feel safe there?
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_00: You mean that take on that or on what?
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, take
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_02: on that.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess when I was engaging with this question,
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was more thinking about
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: what are the types of situations or relationships
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: where belonging would come Hopefully come with a sense of safety.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as I think about that, are,
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: those are the actually,
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: so just as I said that, no,
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_00: to be honest,
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to have a sense of safety,
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: no matter what type of relationship or situation I'm actually part of,
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: that I also have a sense of belonging with.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Then maybe I'd,
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have a sense that like maybe we have different definitions of the sense of safety
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_02: because again like that doesn't sit with me like the sense of safety and I want
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: a safe sense of safety always hearing that just like doesn't sit with
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_02: but this is not life is inherently not like that and can never be like that so.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious what you mean by this sense of safety that you're always looking for.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can actually give you an interesting example of what made me engage with a sense
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: of safety even more directly.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that'll answer your question.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was in...
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a specific container with someone and
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_00: the leader of this container
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_00: said,
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: she was addressing something and she said,
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just want you to know to all of us, this is not a safe container.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It may be safer in some ways, but it is not safe.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: when I heard that,
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: strangely,
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I actually felt a sense of relaxation around those things that I like
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: to call safety.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because it felt more honest and coherent.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like my nervous system was able to trust that directness more than...
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: More than reassurance, right?
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So basically,
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_00: safety for me is not necessarily about, okay,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: there's going to be zero danger here in this relationship or this container ever.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about that there is coherence here,
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: there's transparency,
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: there's The natural ability,
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: as you described early on,
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_00: for shapes to contract and expand and interact with one another and be able
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_00: to be honest and address things that come up that may be triggering for
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: the nervous system.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But there's coherence in terms of
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what is part of this dance that we're going to do, there's going to be space.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, all is welcome.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: We will talk about it or discuss it or work through it or address it as things are needed.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not going to say it's one thing, but it's actually another thing.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that to me creates, so it's not like a one thing, right?
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a compilation of things that create that sense of safety,
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_00: like meaning it's not necessarily that I'm totally safe,
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I know that if things are starting to really build and really be tense
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: and we're no longer flowing,
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_00: like there's room to address it, to interact with it, to...
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Figure out a new way to flow.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to come back to this way of flowing,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe it's a new way of flowing
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: because we actually now understand each other better.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: That now makes total sense.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Coherence is something that really lands well.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I can also see how, to your example, it also perfectly makes sense, right?
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_02: You come with an expectation that there will be some,
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: call it aggression or call it Whatever activation involved,
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_02: and this is what people expect, and they might even know how to deal with it.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are groups where you come and you're told that, oh, there is safety.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I still think that there is no absolute safety.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then there is this, that there is a lot
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hidden, kind of like under the veil and no one really expresses themselves or what's going on.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that is incoherence.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that I like much more.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I also like the word coherence.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Say more?
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Makes much more sense in the relationship to belonging rather than safety.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we discuss the question like what we are looking for,
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: what I'm looking for when I'm looking for the sense of belonging,
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think the word coherence describes it the best because it's the coherence
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: between me and what I belong with.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: We are coherent with each other.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there is like honesty and transparency in our expectations on what's going to happen.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, there are also, Pauline, to your question, belonging with...
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like people who go to wars and things like that.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So huge groups of people who actually feel
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_02: belonging to the extent
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_02: that we might have never experienced.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Belonging with danger, exactly.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly if we're looking for the personal examples,
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: like I have been thinking of right now.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_01: So like when,
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I take a rifle because I love shooting,
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: although I have had very few experiences of that.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when I take the rifle and I shoot, I have this sense of belonging.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: That I belong with this experience, with this thing.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't create me.
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_01: The sense of safety at all.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_01: If not,
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_01: my heart rate rises up and I am bracing because there is the element of performance
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_01: that I need to shoot the target.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I definitely have the sense of belonging.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I belong with this rifle and with the experience of the shooting, 100%.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what we were trying to,
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I was trying to zoom in on was a sense of belonging,
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_00: but not being able to be relaxed in that experience of belonging, right?
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I brought in the word bracing so that it's not necessarily safety,
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: but it is bracing as a signal that you're not relaxed, right?
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those mechanisms of like your bracing.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's tension, you're bracing for something.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go ahead.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why we're talking about the environments that by their nature imply
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_01: the necessity of bracing.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you still may belong there.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, thank you for that.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I see what, okay.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there are places and spaces where you would belong and you would actually need
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_00: to be able to brace.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are places and spaces where you maybe have a sense of belonging,
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_00: but you cannot relax.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not the relationship you would hope that you would have to be constantly bracing in.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yet it is one that you're constantly bracing in.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Can you repeat the second part?
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So some relationships, for example, our primary caregiver, right?
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully you would have a sense of belonging and a lot of us don't, right?
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_00: But let's say for those of us that hopefully can have a sense of belonging
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_00: to your primary caregiver,
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then you would also hope that in that relationship where you belong
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_00: with your caregiver,
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_00: you could also have a sensation of relaxation in that interaction,
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_00: in that relationship.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you belong and you're relaxed.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're not bracing.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yet a lot of us still have that sense of, I belong with this primary caregiver.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I belong and technically I belong in this family.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I'm constantly living in a bracing relationship Physicality,
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_00: energetically bracing, physically bracing, emotionally bracing, right?
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes automatic over time so that you no longer can even tell
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_00: that you're actually quite tense constantly in your system.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_01: In this case,
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would assume that that would create in the person the feeling
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_01: that I actually do not belong here.
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_01: There is this lack of this sense of belonging,
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_01: but I also agree with Yulia
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_01: in the sense that there could be like the general,
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_01: the umbrella sense of safety,
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_01: of the relaxation, but that doesn't mean that there are no moments of bracing.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Even under the umbrella of belonging.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, I can give the example of my family with my parents.
• 1:25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the three of us,
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: that definitely can,
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure each of us have this feeling that no matter what happens,
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_01: one can always count on the other two.
• 1:25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Support, that they will be there.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely have had in my life enough of the experience that gives me
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_01: the sense of belonging and this sensational cake.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Here I'm protected,
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm safe,
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_01: and yet there are plenty of moments when I'm with my parents when I feel
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_01: that
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_01: my vigilant system activates because there are certain tensions
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_01: that are not unresolved.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_01: There are elements in the relationship where I have not resolved certain traumas
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_01: in relationship with my parents, etc.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there are triggers.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_01: That activate my nervous system and at this moment,
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: in this particular context, I stop feeling totally safe and accepted and whatever.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Although there is a general umbrella.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe one distinction to make here is chronic tension
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_02: and chronic bracing versus intermittent tension.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_02: This intermittent bracing, I think it's actually part of the human condition.
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_02: No matter who you are with,
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_02: it may be,
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_02: you think an ideal friend,
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_02: partner,
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_02: whoever,
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_02: there will inevitably moments of bracing because it's just called being alive,
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually, that's brilliant.
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for bringing that in.
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And Also,
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_00: in what you were describing,
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_00: the fact that we then land on questioning,
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_00: well, if there's constant bracing, do I belong?
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that there's that trajectory,
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_00: it automatically makes me start engaging with questions of like,
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_00: well, where did I get this thought that belonging is?
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can have a sense of safety in it, or should.
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where did I get that question from?
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I search for that aspect?
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then the chronic versus intermittent is an important aspect to consider in that question.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_00: But also,
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm chronically in a state of bracing, Is that normal in certain relationships?
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, could that be normal?
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Am I only saying that because there's a huge cost to me and I don't like it?
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But is that actually normal?
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what is the standard in relationships in terms of humans?
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not sure.
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_02: What is normal?
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_02: That is a big question.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_02: And probably going back to my nutrition consulting years,
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_02: it was just like, really, you do not want to go for normal at all.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you go for normal and compare your
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_02: blood testing values to normal,
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_02: to the normal range, then That already includes by all symptoms and how you feel.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's sick, actually.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_02: So what is normal nowadays?
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's more, to me, it's more the question of what do you want?
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm actually, I'm also on board with Ira's question.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_02: if there is constant bracing and chronic bracing, can it be called a belonging?
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_02: How do these two interact?
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that distinction as well.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I am...
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am sitting with all of these separate variables that are part of these questions,
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not sure how they stack up because normal comes from,
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: for example, in my world from psychology, right, that I studied.
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And from attachment theory and from all kinds of different things that just like
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_00: in nutrition consulting, you know, there's a normal range for, let's say, lab work.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in my world of psychology, there's also a norm.
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's a defined normal range in terms of human to human connections,
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of belonging and safety and all this stuff.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And yet as we explore all of these different various concepts in our episode
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I get a chance to really tune into things more,
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: granularly,
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually asking questions like,
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_00: well, I don't know, does safety belong in belonging?
• 1:30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is belonging necessarily,
• 1:31:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like part of it is bracing, whether it's intermittent or chronic?
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is the optimal human state?
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_00: What are the optimal human relationships like?
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is there even such a thing?
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I even think there is a normal, right, in terms of that?
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like am I looking at some of the huge bracing experiences I'm currently having
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_00: With certain people in my life.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And am I looking at it from the perspective of,
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_00: a perspective that I inherited from what I've studied, right,
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_00: and learned,
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe they're actually inaccurate,
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_00: even though,
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_00: on the surface,
• 1:31:50
  SPEAKER_00: it seems like they really did a lot of experimentation and like really studied
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_00: The human experience in order to come up with these things that I've studied.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if they're observing true human behavior and these are the theories and
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_00: the things they're prescribing, like some of it must be true, right?
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yet in experience, things don't add up.
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_00: In my own personal experience, things don't add up.
• 1:32:17
  SPEAKER_00: In some of the conversations that we have here, right?
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Some things don't add up.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still engaging with all of this.
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure where I land.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like poking different things and trying to see what is this matrix?
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like how does it work or how can it work?
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_00: How should it work?
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_00: How would I like it to work?
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_00: In order to see where I can create affordances for things I don't like,
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_00: then maybe I'm not creating affordances for or can't because
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_00: of how I think it should be or could be.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it makes total sense and I think also that
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to look for
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_01: an environment,
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: a group,
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_01: a person you want to belong with in order to feel safe,
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a totally valid wish, target, whatever, like intention.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is normal?
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_01: What is optimal for you?
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is optimal.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if for you belonging equals to safety, then it equals to safety.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually not sure that belonging equals safety.
• 1:33:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm engaging with these questions.
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but anyway, I think you will resolve this question based on your own experience.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like you do have an answer.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_00: You yourself have an answer that belonging does not equal safety.
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Am I getting that right?
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily.
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why you like what, as we discussed before, I do like the word coherence.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So belonging creates the sense of coherence that I'm coherent here,
• 1:34:33
  SPEAKER_01: the environment, the group is coherent to me, I'm coherent to the group.
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_01: The experience is coherent to me.
• 1:34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm coherent to the experience.
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does belonging necessarily automatically create a sense of coherence for you?
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think yes.
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Belonging equals coherence.
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there must be coherence in order for you to experience belonging.
• 1:34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:34:59
  SPEAKER_00: How would you answer that question, Yulia?
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Does coherence and belonging, are they equaled?
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are they, must they be together?
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, maybe equal, but belonging better than that.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Coherence to me feels like a much better gauge of belonging than a sense of safety.
• 1:35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Safety, not really.
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also wanted to talk to the normal and to psychology.
• 1:35:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the whole Discipline of psychology and Western science and research is so young, right?
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And people in this shape or form have been there for a couple million years.
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And how we've been, it's a pretty novel occurrence, right?
• 1:35:55
  SPEAKER_02: And especially in the West.
• 1:35:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like all the... What do you mean, have we been?
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean?
• 1:36:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's very individualistic.
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, our society, okay.
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also,
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know, like, now,
• 1:36:12
  SPEAKER_02: gradually,
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_02: creating almost a religion out of psychology,
• 1:36:18
  SPEAKER_02: we just, like, know,
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_02: it's kind of, like, become, like,
• 1:36:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know, like,
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Machines that know all the concepts or you are a narcissist or you are this
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: or you are that.
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that actually this
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_02: academic kind of knowing where you read about it
• 1:36:50
  SPEAKER_02: in books has misplaced The sense of presence with each other
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_02: and actually exploring what we can be for each other,
• 1:37:02
  SPEAKER_02: whether there is something in this relationship or not,
• 1:37:05
  SPEAKER_02: and what is the relationship of being in the community and what it would require
• 1:37:13
  SPEAKER_02: for each of us.
• 1:37:15
  SPEAKER_02: So if we were to look, for example, for a sense of safety being in the community,
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe unusual or not easily seen things,
• 1:37:29
  SPEAKER_02: does it require each of us maybe kind of like dropping a lot of things
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_02: as individuals we believe in,
• 1:37:37
  SPEAKER_02: like some of our rights to whatever, like feeling this, be that.
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it's a very interesting question and I do respect...
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:37:49
  SPEAKER_02: psychology and there are,
• 1:37:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:37:52
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of interesting that's come out of it, but I,
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:38:01
  SPEAKER_02: I treat it with caution that what it presents is a very limited view on
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_02: the human condition.
• 1:38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you for sharing that.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_00: In the interest of time, we need to start wrapping up.
• 1:38:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanna see what each of you is leaving with so far.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you could help me gather,
• 1:38:42
  SPEAKER_00: if you can gather your individual threads through this discussion so far so
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_00: that I know where we're landing and maybe if something In
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_00: the future can be explored some more.
• 1:38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would really appreciate that.
• 1:38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Would you please share?
• 1:39:04
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it was a very interesting question.
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_01: What are we actually looking for when we're looking for the sense of belonging?
• 1:39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's safety and this...
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Finding for myself that it's about coherence, it was an interesting insight.
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just...
• 1:39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I guess what I'm living with is understanding how,
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_02: like how dynamic we are and how,
• 1:40:05
  SPEAKER_02: whereas like you just said, introduced this term, umbrella of safety.
• 1:40:11
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I like that.
• 1:40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I like to have something where there is some kind of,
• 1:40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Umbrella under which a lot of different things possible.
• 1:40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Also experiments, also agreements of
• 1:40:30
  SPEAKER_02: maybe expression of aggression.
• 1:40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because actually places for expressing aggression, I think they're important.
• 1:40:41
  SPEAKER_02: And people need to express aggressions.
• 1:40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if that can be done in You know,
• 1:40:47
  SPEAKER_02: like community in some form where there is coherence for doing that.
• 1:40:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's what people are called to do.
• 1:40:55
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
• 1:40:57
  SPEAKER_02: but in general,
• 1:40:59
  SPEAKER_02: I am living with the sense that the sense of belonging is
• 1:41:03
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit evasive nowadays because the sense of belonging is about
• 1:41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uphelding traditions of being in groups and communities that know how
• 1:41:21
  SPEAKER_02: to support each other and know how to have and engage in healthy conflict,
• 1:41:26
  SPEAKER_02: know how to be real with each other and honest and transparent.
• 1:41:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in most of the places that I'm familiar with,
• 1:41:38
  SPEAKER_02: that is not at all what's Going on and that's why that sense of belonging
• 1:41:47
  SPEAKER_02: with people to me is so difficult maybe even to discuss.
• 1:42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:42:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to close off by coming back real quick to what you were saying about Yulia,
• 1:42:24
  SPEAKER_00: about the bird observation that I shared earlier.
• 1:42:29
  SPEAKER_00: That we can't really understand what's really going on from our human perspective.
• 1:42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I really, not just recognize, but I have had actually shared like a felt experience of that.
• 1:42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's true.
• 1:42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is from a human perspective.
• 1:42:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, how can we possibly know what's going on?
• 1:42:49
  SPEAKER_00: We can't even we don't even know what's going on with another human usually.
• 1:42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:42:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how can we know about another species?
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_00: And yet when I observe seagulls specifically, I there is there's all the cues of vigilance.
• 1:43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're not chilling.
• 1:43:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're not.
• 1:43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is not okay.
• 1:43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Other birds, you get a different sensation with.
• 1:43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I still say that what I'm observing in the field of seagulls is vigilance and incoherence.
• 1:43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Even though maybe for them, that's not how they're processing the information.
• 1:43:31
  SPEAKER_00: But they're on alert.
• 1:43:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they're constantly fighting with one another.
• 1:43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Someone's laying in the sand and then the bird will come,
• 1:43:38
  SPEAKER_00: the more dominant one will come and literally fly right on top of him to get him out
• 1:43:43
  SPEAKER_00: of the spot, even though the whole beach is available.
• 1:43:45
  SPEAKER_00: So he could sit in that spot because he wants to show dominance.
• 1:43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was actually reading some of the bird research that was done
• 1:43:54
  SPEAKER_00: and that's how it's been described, that it is a show of dominance.
• 1:44:01
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes nature does help me access my own internal felt senses about certain things.
• 1:44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's helpful to make some references to the human experience.
• 1:44:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because in some ways, I believe nature does still mirror.
• 1:44:21
  SPEAKER_00: We are also animals.
• 1:44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so in some ways,
• 1:44:23
  SPEAKER_00: there are shared Dynamics and experiences,
• 1:44:27
  SPEAKER_00: even if maybe the interpretations of them are different or
• 1:44:29
  SPEAKER_00: the felt sense is different, but something about it still feels shared to me.
• 1:44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:44:37
  SPEAKER_00: what I'm leaving with in terms of our discussion is
• 1:44:43
  SPEAKER_00: that I want
• 1:44:44
  SPEAKER_00: to make more room around the concept and experience of belonging and also
• 1:44:53
  SPEAKER_00: whether safety...
• 1:44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Should, can, is present and part of it or not.
• 1:45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need more room to experiment and see where these things land together.
• 1:45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, coherence and belonging,
• 1:45:14
  SPEAKER_00: me, those are two different aspects than the safety piece.
• 1:45:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I agree with the two of you that...
• 1:45:24
  SPEAKER_00: A sense of belonging does ultimately most likely also have some sense of coherence.
• 1:45:32
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that coherence changes its shape, as you described, Yulia, or not, right?
• 1:45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a natural flow with the changing shapes.
• 1:45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now that feels more accurate for belonging and coherence and how they interact.
• 1:45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then safety for me is another variable there somewhere.
• 1:45:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something I still want to explore a little bit deeper for myself.
• 1:45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Aggression.
• 1:46:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was an interesting thing that Ida brought up and I am not sure.
• 1:46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know aggression definitely comes up,
• 1:46:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know, in the realm of belonging, coherence or lack thereof.
• 1:46:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting energy.
• 1:46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure where I land on that just yet.
• 1:46:26
  SPEAKER_00: I need to explore that a little bit more.
• 1:46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then
• 1:46:37
  SPEAKER_00: strikes me actually quite curious that you basically,
• 1:46:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're saying belonging in humans You're really unsure about it, period.
• 1:46:50
  SPEAKER_00: So your sense of belonging is mostly in the realm of nature
• 1:46:55
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe conceptual ideas, I don't know, something else.
• 1:47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, did I get that wrong?
• 1:47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 1:47:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's just that my expectation of that belonging is not safety and it's more dynamic.
• 1:47:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's said that maybe The difference is that before I used
• 1:47:17
  SPEAKER_02: to be more seeing belonging as something like fixed,
• 1:47:24
  SPEAKER_02: something you get and then you stay there.
• 1:47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And now I see that how I'm shifting and then where and with
• 1:47:31
  SPEAKER_02: whom I belong is shifting and that I'm allowing myself to be shifting
• 1:47:36
  SPEAKER_02: and I also am allowing others to be kind of, to be shifting.
• 1:47:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's more, yeah,
• 1:47:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's like dynamic and through that I think more alive and allowing for all kinds
• 1:47:54
  SPEAKER_02: of things to emerge,
• 1:47:55
  SPEAKER_02: including conflict, including aggression,
• 1:48:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know, things like that.
• 1:48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I was thinking you said that it's a bit evasive nowadays belonging with humans.
• 1:48:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I was thinking maybe,
• 1:48:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:48:15
  SPEAKER_00: you're more gravitating to other things outside of humans for that sense
• 1:48:19
  SPEAKER_00: of belonging these days.
• 1:48:21
  SPEAKER_02: I do gravitate,
• 1:48:23
  SPEAKER_02: but I also have come to acknowledge that human belonging is really important
• 1:48:28
  SPEAKER_02: because I'm still human.
• 1:48:31
  Ah, Dan!
• 1:48:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're still human, Yulia.
• 1:48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, go ahead.
• 1:48:38
  SPEAKER_02: I also wanted to clarify something that I meant with the birds.
• 1:48:43
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to say that your perception was wrong somehow.
• 1:48:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, I meant to say that the world of birds and how it is experienced
• 1:48:53
  SPEAKER_02: by birds is different how it's perceived by humans.
• 1:48:56
  SPEAKER_02: But that nature reflects back to us things.
• 1:49:02
  SPEAKER_02: And actually,
• 1:49:03
  SPEAKER_02: two of us could be watching The same flock of seagulls
• 1:49:07
  SPEAKER_02: and could perceive something different.
• 1:49:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is one of my favorite things ever to be reflected.
• 1:49:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I really appreciate.
• 1:49:26
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to say that your perception was not legitimate or wrong.
• 1:49:33
  SPEAKER_02: I just meant to say that
• 1:49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever is happening for them is different because they inhabit
• 1:49:42
  SPEAKER_02: a completely different world where everything is different.
• 1:49:48
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 1:49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reflecting that back to me.
• 1:49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there was a part of me
• 1:49:54
  SPEAKER_00: that felt like you were not picking up what I was trying to express and at
• 1:50:00
  SPEAKER_00: the same time I was still totally agreeing with your perspective because I agree
• 1:50:04
  SPEAKER_00: that it's all Human perception, right, when it comes to things.
• 1:50:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, the reflection point to my human experience is what I'm engaging with.
• 1:50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the way you frame that and phrase that.
• 1:50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 1:50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, another very interesting zigzaggy journey.
• 1:50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not, we didn't get to some of the other aspects that I was wanting to engage.
• 1:50:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:50:31
  SPEAKER_00: it's funny now that I prepare for the episode,
• 1:50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually whittling down the amount of questions that are possible
• 1:50:36
  SPEAKER_00: in each episode.
• 1:50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like it used to be seven and now I'm down to four and I still can only get to two or so.
• 1:50:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite interesting,
• 1:50:47
  SPEAKER_00: this trajectory in how we're engaging with one another and the questions
• 1:50:53
  SPEAKER_00: that we bring in.
• 1:50:54
  SPEAKER_00: But this was another dip of the toe into the water of all of this.
• 1:51:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're going to talk about this at length some more.
• 1:51:10
  SPEAKER_00: But as we...
• 1:51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Close up, I just want to say thank you to both of you for showing up, for engaging with this.
• 1:51:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to thank whoever's listening or watching us.
• 1:51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to leave you with the question of what would it mean to live with less bracing?
• 1:51:35
  SPEAKER_00: What would that be like?
• 1:51:38
  SPEAKER_00: What conditions might need to be met?
• 1:51:41
  SPEAKER_00: What type of situations?
• 1:51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what would that experience be like?
• 1:51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Would you want to have that experience?
• 1:51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:51:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 1:51:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we will see you in the next episode.
• 1:51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
• 1:52:09
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• 1:52:10
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• 1:52:12
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• 1:52:18
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• 1:52:22
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