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What is Loneliness About? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina,
• 0:06
  and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses,
• 0:17
  and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body,
• 1:12
  and energy flow together.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Life & Flow podcast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: The three of us, Yulia, Elina, and Polina, are here today.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: and I will be facilitating this conversation.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: The topic that I chose for us today has to do with loneliness.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: What is loneliness about?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And actually it was very selfish.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just had a massively intensive experience of being, feeling so lonely.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: The way I
• 1:59
  hadn't felt that lonely before for years maybe since my teenage
• 2:04
  years and as i was
• 2:08
  in that experience i already knew that this was for something
• 2:12
  so i thought hmm cool
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we could
• 2:16
  talk about it today since we have what's scheduled and we
• 2:21
  always go with the flow
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: so we have we can choose the topic so that's.
• 2:28
  What we're going to be talking today and and there's a lot of
• 2:34
  talking about
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: loneliness will know that there is a loneliness epidemic,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: as they say,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: going on,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: and then the loneliness brings a lot of pain and.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I also wanted to see what else we can find there in loneliness,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: because being painful as it was,
• 3:04
  I knew instinctively that there was something really important
• 3:10
  for me in that
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: experience.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really curious and I don't have
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: the answer some really curious what we find out today.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And for a start, we're gonna play a couple of games.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: For those listening to us, please also play along.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: The first game I
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to suggest is creating metaphors for loneliness.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Loneliness is like to us, and it can be anything that comes to mind.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Again, so we're here not to create definitions or to cite some research.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're here just to share the experience as it emerges in the moment.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why also feel free to
• 4:16
  well not feel free but also become aware what comes up to you
• 4:19
  now talking to people
• 4:20
  who mind listening to the episode okay so i suggest that we
• 4:26
  start with um irina
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: maybe irina if you don't mind and then we go to polina and then me okay
• 4:42
  loneliness is like darkness loneliness is like being untethered
• 4:59
  but not in a good way
• 5:10
  Loneliness is like throwing pebbles into the water and the
• 5:18
  pebbles make no circles.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: loneliness is like enduring a black hole loneliness
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: is like being a singularity and looking for source or other frequencies,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: but unable to find them in the darkness.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 6:47
  loneliness is like a drop of water in a desert that is not even
• 7:01
  noticed by the
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: desert is not even heard or seen by the desert
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Loneliness is like purification.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Purification.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Loneliness is like an existential question mark.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Loneliness is like being burned.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: all the way through with the flesh and bones and nothing left.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: No traces.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Loneliness is like a song that leaves your soul naked.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Loneliness is like being completely naked and exposed.
• 9:03
  And yet the only one that can witness your nakedness and your
• 9:10
  mushiness and
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: whatever makes you is you.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: loneliness is like your heart aching for love
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: and not finding any.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So where are we now?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: This game?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: touching the edges of something profound and painful.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I find it fascinating.
• 10:42
  Playing with these metaphors really reveals something that
• 10:50
  comes onto the surface.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So as you were sharing and things were coming up for me,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think we started with the darkness,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: but then there were also some things that were quite light,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: like fire,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: for example.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then there were things like a song.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this darkness, but then there is
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: so much beauty,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: also there,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: maybe behind the darkness,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: because usually darkness is what we notice first,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: and darkness is something that intuitively we...
• 11:46
  want to protect darkness because i brought it up and my
• 11:50
  darkness is not the bad
• 11:52
  darkness it's just deep it's about depth it's about that like
• 11:59
  something that it's
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: things you need to discover them so it's mystery it's more than mystery
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like its depth would be the more accurate.
• 12:31
  I mean,
• 12:32
  I guess the whole point of a metaphor is to zero in on the
• 12:37
  sensorial experience.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it actually like to feel this?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: through a more a more potent expression of it or description of it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's move on then from the metaphors.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we would play a second game, but actually like the
• 13:16
  uh maybe maybe later i think it's not time for the second game
• 13:21
  but actually i did
• 13:23
  want to ask you to maybe share an experience a story and not
• 13:28
  necessarily something
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: of existential proportions that may be hard to hold but something
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: which for you maybe was a symbol of loneliness,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: or maybe even of something opposite than loneliness,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: because we can also explore loneliness through the opposite,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: He used to be afraid of being alone.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, physically alone.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Until,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: my late 20s,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: whenever I stayed alone in a certain space,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I felt so terrible that I really,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: literally was climbing the walls.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how to put it into words.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: But since we are talking about flow of life,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: so life to put me through like being alone in different circumstances.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: different areas of my life.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I could learn to be alone and to be not just to be okay with it,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: but to discover really like the the strength and the depth what you can
• 15:37
  discover and learn from being one-on-one with yourself now i
• 15:48
  really love the
• 15:50
  process of being alone is low alone and lonely how related are
• 15:57
  they yeah that's
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: this is very uh
• 16:07
  on distinction because like loneliness I guess is what we feel
• 16:14
  like the like the
• 16:17
  existential separateness from the world and we can feel it
• 16:25
  whether we're surrounded
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: by other people or not but we do tend to well at least I tend to
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: this tendency to feel lonely when I was alone.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can you remind me what the question is?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: When I really listen to the two of you, I forget what the prompt is.
• 17:08
  The question or the invitation was to share a story that comes
• 17:12
  to mind and it can
• 17:13
  be just a small story about maybe feeling lonely or maybe the
• 17:20
  opposite about not
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: lonely so that,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: we can.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I, for me,
• 17:29
  Loneliness is a little bit of something I have to sift through
• 17:35
  to understand a
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: little bit differently than the alone versus lonely,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: because I have interacted with loneliness within very noisy environments.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Noisy, I mean, in terms of
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: lots of volatility,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: lots of raised voices,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: lots of anger and arguments and instability growing up.
• 18:04
  So when you're in a noisy environment like that,
• 18:08
  it's really hard to tune in to
• 18:14
  this whole loneliness versus lonely versus alone versus what's
• 18:19
  happening type of thing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for me,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: being alone was a respite,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:32
  it was like a chance to actually quiet myself down and have a
• 18:39
  chance to get a
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: breath,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: like have a chance to
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: figure out what is it like to be on your own
• 18:52
  And then there would be a sense of loneliness,
• 18:56
  but not because you're alone.
• 18:58
  It's because the lack of the ability to connect to other humans
• 19:04
  in such a volatile
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: environment was not available.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then you would have to try to figure out,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: is there connection in the volatility and in the noisiness?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or...
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't quite ever feel like a connection,
• 19:20
  even though I think I was told that this is what connection
• 19:25
  means and it is.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But definitely it created a profound sense of confusion.
• 19:32
  And in that confusion,
• 19:34
  there was a profound sense of really being alone and
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Alone in my interpretations,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: alone in the questions that came up,
• 19:42
  alone in this sense of feeling disconnected and not seen and
• 19:46
  not heard and not
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: understood by other humans.
• 19:53
  And not even wanted to,
• 19:55
  not even being invited to share,
• 20:00
  to work through stuff,
• 20:03
  to...
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: figure things out like it was just you're on your own.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, this is both a normal state to live in.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is how my nervous system was wired.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yet there was always a longing for something more.
• 20:28
  Both really like at my core and also seeing some things on the
• 20:34
  outside that
• 20:37
  i don't ever get to engage with like people that are actually
• 20:40
  happy together people
• 20:41
  that really want to talk about things and work through things
• 20:44
  and healthy conflict
• 20:46
  and like real love that's not conditional these concepts that i
• 20:51
  personally have
• 20:52
  never experienced in my life um still to this day um and that
• 20:59
  creates a sense of um
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: a question, like this existential question.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I experience this?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: What about it is so elusive?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also experienced, I guess, a lot of loneliness as a child.
• 21:32
  um somehow being and feeling different um but actually what i
• 21:44
  wanted to share with
• 21:46
  you was that experience that happened a week ago very briefly
• 21:50
  it was like a huge
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: experience for me but it was interesting that i was um in this
• 21:59
  group of people over 20 people in the forest and there's over
• 22:05
  20 people in the
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: forest all of them were germans except for me
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived in different countries,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: so it's not the experience of being an outsider in this sense,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: coming from another place,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: coming from another background,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: is familiar to me.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yet this time was somehow so different.
• 22:37
  And it's because my German is also not perfect and I cannot
• 22:42
  really go into deep
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: discussions or go into this effortless small talk.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in the forest when there is so much going on,
• 22:54
  actually this effort of saying something meaningful and without
• 23:00
  mistakes requires
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: additional energy that there wasn't a lot of.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so by and by,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I found myself like from feeling of being more or less connected,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's like zeroing in to this piercing sense of loneliness.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I had something happen to me and I lost my knife in the forest.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the knife,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's like something very personal because in survival experience,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: the knife is the thing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been to those experience,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: but if you go in,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: whatever,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: for 10 days,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: the one thing,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: if you are allowed to take one thing,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's the knife.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 23:53
  I went really down in or up in intensity with my experience
• 23:59
  after I lost the knife.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then it dawned on me, wow, the knife was my last real connection.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I lost hope.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was also interesting how I felt so isolated.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I felt so... It's like, you know, the language, the context, everything.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: All those people were there.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there was...
• 24:30
  like constant talking and noise and something doing and i was
• 24:36
  alone on this side
• 24:39
  and my loneliness it was not seen it was not heard it was not
• 24:47
  sense um and i was
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: like hmm okay should i do something about it because
• 24:57
  course you know if we go through experience there is there are
• 25:00
  things that we can
• 25:01
  do right okay let's go i can go and talk to people and say i'm
• 25:06
  feeling like shit
• 25:07
  why don't you come and talk to me i'm like you know the only
• 25:12
  fucking person here
• 25:13
  who is not from this country can you like have some empathy but
• 25:19
  it's like hmm what
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: an interesting experience
• 25:23
  guess it's something that i need to go through and so i did i
• 25:29
  mean it's like
• 25:30
  actually much bigger but yeah it was very surprising that out
• 25:36
  of this week in the
• 25:38
  wilderness i was thinking okay now we're going again like naked
• 25:42
  in the forest or um
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: through the stinging stinging nettles whatever and then this
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: most transformative or biggest experience was loneliness.
• 26:04
  That sounds like an extreme experience of loneliness with all
• 26:08
  the elements and survival.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as you were sharing your story,
• 26:13
  it took me back to cave times when losing your knife really
• 26:20
  could mean that you
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: don't survive in the wilderness,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And being outcast also meant that you didn't survive.
• 26:37
  so what what is loneliness for you what is it about so now
• 26:41
  we're saying okay being
• 26:42
  an outcast or losing a lot um losing a knife way back when our
• 26:48
  lives dependent on
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: it so like what what is it about this loneliness this intensity
• 27:00
  I want to share two things that came to me while I was
• 27:06
  listening to your story,
• 27:07
  Yulia.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they point me at least towards some kind of direction of the
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: exploration,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: what it is about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: The first situation I remembered,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: it's just really anecdotal,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: but it's somewhat similar to the situation that you described.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: But when I,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: it was the first or maybe this is my second year in Barcelona,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember exactly.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I went on a ski trip with some colleagues from the office.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they took on some friends with them.
• 27:56
  So it so happened that I ended up in a car with how many of
• 28:03
  them were like three or
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: four French speaking people.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the whole trip, they were speaking French between themselves.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt totally excluded.
• 28:18
  And like,
• 28:19
  it's not that we were not in France,
• 28:22
  they were all spoke,
• 28:24
  they all spoke English.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they knew that I didn't speak French,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: but they didn't bother to include me into their conversation anyhow.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I like at that time, I
• 28:38
  wouldn't describe what I felt as loneliness,
• 28:41
  but I definitely felt like this outcast.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I felt excluded from the tribe.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it is definitely not a pleasant experience as a minimum.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then somehow what also came to my mind is
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have seen this movie.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's called The 13th Warrior.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Banderas is the main character.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: The whole story is that the Banderas character is,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: he was Spanish or Arab warrior or something like this,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: and he took on a trip with some group of Vikings.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they were going somewhere, they had a quest.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: The point is that Banderas
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: this Banderas character didn't speak the language of the Vikings.
• 29:44
  So they were talking all between themselves,
• 29:49
  their language,
• 29:51
  and he didn't understand them.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he was excluded, basically from the group.
• 29:57
  And then it's like,
• 29:59
  and they showed it in the movie,
• 30:02
  like how he paid attention to
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: It just paid attention and paid attention and paid attention.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Most probably it doesn't happen like this in real life.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have research on this.
• 30:21
  But the point is,
• 30:23
  from this presence and paying attention to what is going on,
• 30:33
  there came a shift,
• 30:35
  then all of a sudden,
• 30:36
  he began understanding what they were saying.
• 30:43
  And so what came to me as a reflection,
• 30:47
  it's not a definite answer,
• 30:49
  definitely.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 30:55
  So like,
• 30:56
  yes,
• 30:56
  we,
• 30:57
  because we're social beings,
• 30:59
  we can't stand being excluded from the group.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: This illusion that leads to loneliness or means to being alone as a
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: as a way of, okay, you're like, you can't, how to frame it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: We brought it up,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yulia,
• 31:34
  you actually brought it up in the episode one where we're
• 31:37
  discussing social
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: conditioning.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: When we are following the group and the dynamics of the groups,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: as we are wired to,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: because we're social animals,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: we adapt and adjust to what is going on in our environment socially.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a chance,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: because we're so immersed in these group dynamics,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: we don't have a chance to really be detached and to become present.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Who am I?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Who are they?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: What is going on?
• 32:18
  How to get out of these established patterns to start seeing
• 32:25
  things differently
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: from the other perspective.
• 32:30
  Maybe the loneliness is exactly the obligation to get out of
• 32:37
  the established
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: patterns of the group.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: to learn to see or to perceive things differently.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Yul.
• 32:57
  No,
• 32:57
  so it's,
• 32:58
  I guess,
• 32:59
  a space where you can make different choices,
• 33:06
  where you can reflect.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess before you're like,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: in order to be able to make different choices,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: you need first to get to this space of different perception.
• 33:22
  You need to start seeing things you don't see when you are
• 33:26
  inside the group.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And by inside the group,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean surrounded by other people physically,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: but when you are really,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: when you are immersed in the group dynamics.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is it also group dynamics, like group flow, for example?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Would that also be the kind of dynamics, or not really?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: I guess it depends.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm hearing that loneliness can be choice.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a difficult choice, but it's a kind of like a
• 34:13
  you know like you're like from at least like from the director
• 34:19
  of this reflection i
• 34:22
  take it it's it's very difficult for us to make this choice
• 34:26
  because it's very
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: painful for human being so i would guess that
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: In most of the cases, it's not the choice.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we are put in these conditions,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: from the perspective of flow of life,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: life puts us into this,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 34:51
  obliges us to see things differently because we are cut off
• 34:57
  from all other,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: social factors that...
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: contaminates our perception.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's painful.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we don't make this decision on our own.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're obliged to experience it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Iara,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: as you were describing it,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: that whole dichotomy between human spirit and human animal.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: The human animal part of us,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: the instinctual part of us,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: is wired for connection and wired for group experience for survival.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're describing is almost like how does the human spirit...
• 35:51
  experience itself and maybe even have a chance to
• 35:57
  self-actualize or even get to
• 35:59
  another level if not for the separation which is for on the
• 36:05
  instinctual level very
• 36:06
  difficult and painful and scary but in order to be able to
• 36:11
  grasp I guess your
• 36:14
  own personal makeup your own like ask the questions of like who
• 36:19
  do i want to be and
• 36:21
  how do i want to evolve in this and i know that's a big word
• 36:27
  but how do i want this
• 36:28
  thing to go it almost requires the separation from the group
• 36:33
  and from group flow
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: in lots of ways,
• 36:38
  a very potent filtering system that will not allow you to
• 36:43
  explore other aspects of
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: yourself because you're actually in group flow.
• 36:50
  So that means you're flowing with what this group is about and
• 36:53
  what the rules are
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: in this group and what the concepts of self are in this group.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way to get a different perspective on yourself would be this
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: separation,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: which we call being alone,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: which could cause the sensation of loneliness and otherness.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yet from what from the lens you're describing,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: which I can really see,
• 37:20
  it is also one of the most maybe important opportunities to be
• 37:27
  able to experience
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: ourselves.
• 37:29
  not just from their lens and functionality of this group we
• 37:34
  were born into,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: or we have existed in,
• 37:38
  but also really taking a step back and taking a bigger lens and
• 37:46
  perspective on who
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: am I,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: not just at the human-animal level,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: but who am I
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: that is maybe more than that.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what,
• 38:00
  what choices do I have for the experience and for the
• 38:06
  identification of self and,
• 38:08
  and how I want to show up and seeing it from that perspective
• 38:15
  actually makes more
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: sense to me.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it, it,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: it makes the pain of the experience more doable,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: more digestible,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: because I see the point in it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's a point in it.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: So then that makes it more doable for my psyche.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, Pauline, what would you say to us learning about ourselves
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: from relations with others.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering,
• 39:01
  because I still have a lot of questions and I don't have that
• 39:05
  many answers,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: but what you said made me curious.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: On the one hand,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I do agree when you choose to step out,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's almost also a shock to the system that makes you
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: It makes things happen maybe somehow.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not always because you can also be stuck in loneliness.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: If it happens,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: then there is also some movement and dynamics and a way for us to explore
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: ourselves.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, why ask the question, I was wondering, because we
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Ana de Bettencourt- Now,
• 39:51
  so how do we know who we are in the social kind of reality know
• 39:57
  from relationship
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: with this world,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: including the people,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: but not only limited to the people,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: so I wonder.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ana de Bettencourt- What do you think on that.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we ever know who we are,
• 40:16
  but I think we get a chance to at least consider different
• 40:23
  options if we are
• 40:25
  separated from groupthink and the community or society that
• 40:32
  we're born into.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think that that experience of
• 40:38
  figuring ourselves out could go way smoother and easier and
• 40:43
  softer if you're
• 40:44
  surrounded by people that have comfort with uncertainty and
• 40:49
  have comfort with
• 40:50
  otherness and can support and accept someone for for being
• 40:57
  different and thinking
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: differently or wanting to have a different experience now
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine,
• 41:04
  I don't know what it's like because I haven't had that kind of
• 41:07
  situation in my
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: lifetime so far.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like being accepted from my different, you know, aspects or being other.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's almost like a filtering system also, right?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're separate from those people,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: then you're like,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: so what about those people do I like?
• 41:34
  What about those people do I not like in how they function or
• 41:38
  who they are,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: how they hold space,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: how they show up?
• 41:42
  And then I get to choose what resonates for me or doesn't
• 41:45
  resonate for me.
• 41:47
  So that could be kind of a helpful parsing system,
• 41:51
  which would be very hard to parse.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're like really in it
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to perform like that,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: that there's this whole performance aspect that takes a lot of energy,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: which you talked about,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have energy to to do parsing and identification and choice.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: It requires actual biological energy.
• 42:12
  And if you're so entrained and ingrained in some kind of
• 42:18
  specific system where you
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: have a specific role and you have to perform to that role,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: otherwise there's going to be consequences.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot to manage.
• 42:26
  to manage yourself to manage others and i don't know if that
• 42:30
  leaves a lot of energy
• 42:31
  for the type of parsing that you do get to do when you're alone
• 42:38
  and you are
• 42:38
  separated from whatever group you've been born into uh am i
• 42:45
  answering your question
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: or did i we are off topic
• 42:49
  kind of um kind of i'm still also kind of exploring yourself
• 42:54
  and i guess it's
• 42:55
  always the paradox right we find out who we are at least in
• 42:59
  this social environment
• 43:01
  through other people and yet through um how other people
• 43:06
  perceive us or the roles
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: that they ascribe to us is not always or actually usually
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: what we want to live with all our lives.
• 43:18
  So I guess it makes total sense to kind of create that
• 43:25
  loneliness and space to
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: create something else for yourself.
• 43:35
  I think that from my perspective,
• 43:38
  being with others creates the possibility of
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: of seeing what you are not.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it helps to see what you are.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a separate inquiry.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: When we're younger,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: it's easier to,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 43:57
  compare what our internal world is and what our internal
• 44:02
  responses are to certain
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: things as we observe others and then feel like,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know that that's how it's done,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: but that doesn't quite feel right for me.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And only later on,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: when we actually have agency financially,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: maybe with our own living space,
• 44:18
  hopefully we haven't already gotten married and had kids
• 44:20
  because that would delay
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: the process of the second type of inquiry for another at least 18 years,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: potentially.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: The second type of inquiry is who am I,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: if it's not in comparison to those people,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: like who am I?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: when I'm just referencing myself,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: which can also be very like a separate type of experience,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Still can bring up loneliness and aloneness and all of those sensations.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I feel like those are two different inquiries.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: How does that resonate for you?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: How does that sound?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting what you're saying.
• 45:12
  Where do you stand with the question of what is being alone or
• 45:18
  loneliness or
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the question?
• 45:20
  I have a few kind of things that popped up for me and not
• 45:24
  necessarily in the form
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: of a definition,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: but one thing,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned that when there is loneliness,
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: there is also this intense longing.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think right now,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: when so many people,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: and they call it loneliness epidemic,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: but so many people feel so lonely in their core,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: like not seen,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: not understood,
• 45:50
  maybe it's a mechanism that activates this collective longing
• 45:58
  that helps us or
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: leads us in reconnecting
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: to each other in this way,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: like the radical way we described going to the center,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: not reconnecting here on the surface,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: but by going to the center.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking, okay, this is maybe what's happening.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Also one other thought that came to mind was
• 46:34
  Well,
• 46:35
  loneliness is another,
• 46:39
  let's say,
• 46:39
  state or it's an emotional state,
• 46:42
  right?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Feeling that needs to be shaped somehow in the consciousness.
• 46:48
  So maybe it's a period where it's being shaped and textured and
• 46:58
  this energy of
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: loneliness will be transformed into love.
• 47:04
  or into sunlight or into light I don't know and of course
• 47:14
  loneliness is also maybe
• 47:18
  not always but a powerful creative force which is also
• 47:30
  something to appreciate
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's what I was sensing.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was there and this was impulse.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, let me go and join them.
• 47:44
  But on the other side,
• 47:45
  I was like,
• 47:47
  really,
• 47:47
  there was something very worthwhile in this space.
• 47:58
  in this intensity of the experience of loneliness it like it
• 48:04
  created some inside
• 48:09
  that then like this loss of balance and status quo it makes you
• 48:16
  the system look for
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: another point
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: like a reference point that's not within the system or the group,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: but actually a reference point that's more internal.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's my reference point?
• 48:32
  And that's that second mechanism,
• 48:33
  the second parsing that I was talking about.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it does require,
• 48:38
  maybe not the suffering that comes with the loneliness and the
• 48:42
  sense of separation.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: I wish we had more
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: more, I guess, regulation around that aspect of the sensory experience.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's possible,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: but how else would you,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: how else would you be able to take the shape that you were describing,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: like being able to shape,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: but your own reference point
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you do that without having that experience of other?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's almost like a gift,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: but on some kind of fundamental instinctual level,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's pain in that.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And yet if you look at it from what you're describing, like more of...
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you would say spiritual perspective.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would say more of a rendering perspective.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I want to render myself for me,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: regardless of the society and the group and the family I'm born into,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: who am I?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then it would require some sort of separation.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how we do that separation,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: for some reason,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: gets really messy and painful and annoying.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Did I hear you right?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: How did you figure it out for yourself?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Did you figure it out for yourself through this experience?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you end up, if you don't mind me asking?
• 50:26
  Yeah,
• 50:27
  it actually reminded me of interconnectedness that we discussed
• 50:31
  here.
• 50:33
  And that's not the kind of question,
• 50:35
  okay,
• 50:35
  lonely,
• 50:36
  but at the same time,
• 50:37
  we're
• 50:39
  one right like juggling this too and juggling the
• 50:43
  interconnectedness so i actually
• 50:46
  had also a very interesting experience well because i was in
• 50:51
  the forest i was like
• 50:54
  wow it's makes so much sense when i'm in the forest to go and
• 51:01
  ask for some love and
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: support from the forest and from the trees
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I found, I was not found, but by impulse, I felt this impulse.
• 51:16
  So it was this big birch tree and it had this kind of like
• 51:23
  protruding surface,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: like a face almost.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt impulse just to also put my face against it.
• 51:31
  And it felt so relieving,
• 51:34
  it was so accepting,
• 51:36
  it was so loving,
• 51:39
  it was so unconditional.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I was there for an hour or so,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: and I attempted to leave a couple of times,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: but then I look back and I feel,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to be there.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: There was a very strong physical sensation to this also.
• 52:01
  very strong and I cried and I felt like there was the space was
• 52:08
  there for me to cry
• 52:09
  and if I wanted to yell whatever the space was would also be
• 52:14
  there and then
• 52:16
  interestingly so I left and I cross the road like a small road
• 52:23
  and there is another
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: beech tree it's like a special significance for me and what I find there
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tons of mushrooms.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot to look it up in the dictionary.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like really cool, cool mushrooms?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the most, the best.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what do mushrooms signal us?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: What does it stand for?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: A porcini!
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are porous beings.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Porcini?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Porcini or porcini?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Porcini mushroom.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: A porcini mushroom.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are porous beings.
• 53:20
  And you also thought of Ira and her story with the mushroom
• 53:23
  that she found,
• 53:26
  the black mushrooms.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: So what was your anchor point with that?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean anchor point?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: When you found the mushrooms, what shifted for you, if anything?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Look, this is love.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Look, this is love.
• 53:47
  And you already experienced this in a very visceral way a year
• 53:52
  ago when they had
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: that experience with breath of life.
• 53:57
  And now here you are again,
• 54:00
  and you need to be reminded that you already have this love.
• 54:05
  And after this experience,
• 54:09
  I went back to the forest and I found my knife.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is it if not a transcendent experience?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still mentioning core regulation,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's with other humans or other beings,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Other elements that we still...
• 54:55
  can really use co-regulation to help us,
• 55:00
  what,
• 55:00
  to stabilize,
• 55:01
  to connect to ourselves more?
• 55:03
  What was the co-regulation serving for you with the tree and
• 55:07
  the mushrooms?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, that also was my question for you.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we manage?
• 55:13
  Because being alone in our loneliness,
• 55:20
  I think it's really a pain that maybe we don't
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: we're not meant to be enduring,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: and it creates,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: it pushes maybe us,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: this kind of loneliness pushes us into whatever state that is not about,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: connecting to ourselves or finding out who we are.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: but more kind of going down.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering what your thoughts on this are.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we manage this painful experience?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yes,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Pauline,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess without...
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I am or we are all interconnected.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right, so I do want to tap into this interconnectedness.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's not with people,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: then there are a lot of other beings that actually do have,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: offer their support and love and co-regulating capacity,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: if we want to take it.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: about whether we are not meant to experience this pain.
• 57:07
  Because your dialogue made me remember of a book that at a
• 57:22
  certain point really had a very
• 57:28
  incidental impact on my life it's the book the art of loving by
• 57:36
  eric from and he
• 57:40
  actually talks about you know like the whole book is about
• 57:44
  existential loneliness
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: is the
• 57:52
  default state of a human being as a human condition was what he
• 57:58
  he calls it
• 57:59
  separatedness and like here we talk metaphysics with the like
• 58:05
  the explanation i
• 58:06
  think it's not his invention like a lot of people talk about
• 58:11
  that like the the very
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: act of being born
• 58:16
  is is this transition from the state when you are one with the
• 58:23
  total and then you
• 58:26
  become separated from that and it's this existential wound that
• 58:32
  we are supposed to
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: transcend as we go through our life so and you're like
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: I loved,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Paulina,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: when you brought up this dichotomy of the,
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: humans as animals for humans as spirits.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really not about,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: one versus the other,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: but it's really the transcendence between this different,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: parts of ourselves.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: As we know that,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: we know,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: in our common shared worldviews,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: normally we tend to say that from the spiritual point of view,
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: we are all,
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: we're part of the whole.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we're never really alone.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we're all connected with each other.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 59:44
  We say,
• 59:45
  okay,
• 59:45
  so we need to get separated from the others to get into the
• 59:53
  state of loneliness.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: To be able to transcend into this awareness of the whole, actually.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: But to be able to transcend to that...
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: at least,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: all my life experience points me to that,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's inevitable at a certain point to go through this,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: descendant,
• 1:00:32
  descendants into the very core of this pain of this existential
• 1:00:38
  separateness.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to live it through
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: In order to,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: when I hit the bottom,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: I am able,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: within myself,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to realize that I'm actually the whole.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm never separated from the world.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like,
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: This descendants and transcendence is a very painful experience.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that we can avoid this pain and this suffering.
• 1:01:21
  It's the matter of all our human experiences are the path that
• 1:01:27
  leads us to this transcendence.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Through the many layers and levels of separation,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: like how much separation can you endure and transcend?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked about the birth experience many times.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it so traumatic?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why is there so much screaming?
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a pleasant,
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: you just get,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: when I watch animals give birth,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't seem to be as traumatic as it is for,
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: human women.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the babies come out.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do they have self-awareness?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, right.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: So then I don't know.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know if they have self-awareness.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of animals do, I think, if not all animals.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure about insects probably.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they don't, but animals do.
• 1:02:20
  The birth experience sometimes seems less traumatic than it is
• 1:02:25
  for human babies.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't...
• 1:02:28
  So it's like if we're if we're coming in already with this kind
• 1:02:31
  of experience about
• 1:02:33
  the separation and and it makes sense that this would be like
• 1:02:37
  the original wound,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: like the first wound.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: For this experience.
• 1:02:45
  But then we're also we are the human animal and there's also
• 1:02:48
  potentially the spirit aspect.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: And those two distinctions come from Alison Armstrong's work, but
• 1:02:57
  And I say seem to be because we don't definitively know what's
• 1:03:01
  beyond the human animal.
• 1:03:04
  Like,
• 1:03:04
  it's still all working theories,
• 1:03:06
  no matter how much experiences we have energetically.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's still a working theory.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: Did I interrupt you, Yule?
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just... No?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was not saying anything.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: You were responding to, you know...
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder though, so that still is a persistent question for me.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it have to be so traumatic, the separation?
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it have to be so painful?
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't it be a little bit easier?
• 1:03:42
  Why can't it be the status quo that we're meant to not be like
• 1:03:47
  our family just
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: because we have DNA?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like what if we're meant to be a new expression of the DNA we come from?
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: What if we're meant to like
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, chart a new path for the family.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it have to be that?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, you got to be like us.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be like us.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: You have to think like us.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have to look like us.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have to act like us.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: What were you going to say?
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but you just think from the point of view of biology.
• 1:04:15
  If any new offspring has total new DNA,
• 1:04:21
  then there is no any stability to the system.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to provide variety so that the system would evolve,
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: but this variety cannot run from the total chaos itself.
• 1:04:37
  needs to have some roots and you see okay it's like this one
• 1:04:42
  works this one doesn't
• 1:04:43
  work again this one can adapt in this way you're like and you
• 1:04:48
  know it goes branch
• 1:04:49
  it's branching out of trees but you can't just jump you're
• 1:04:56
  total new like no this
• 1:04:58
  has nothing to do with me i am totally different and then the
• 1:05:04
  whole survival thing
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: how it depends
• 1:05:06
  well,
• 1:05:06
  be it survival or be it the social structures that,
• 1:05:13
  I guess,
• 1:05:13
  enabled our survival.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about this social cohesion.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if we are to believe what used to be the case,
• 1:05:29
  was more about like while living in tribes right and having
• 1:05:35
  rituals and having this
• 1:05:37
  sense of kinship and not having so many structures political
• 1:05:46
  financial things which
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: made the social life much more i guess enjoyable and also connected um
• 1:05:59
  And again,
• 1:06:00
  yeah,
• 1:06:00
  but it's also about survival going out of the social context.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: back to the biology,
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: like the DNA you are coming from,
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: these are DNA that survived.
• 1:06:12
  So from the biology perspective,
• 1:06:14
  for life doesn't make any sense to cut it off and start anew.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because this works.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: We knew that this works.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: The totally new combination, we don't know if it works or not.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:06:28
  but we're still pointing to energy conservation as one of the
• 1:06:32
  main drivers for
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: trying to keep things status quo.
• 1:06:36
  Energy conservation,
• 1:06:37
  because anything that is other requires exploration of new
• 1:06:42
  rules.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: What does this mean?
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: How do we do this?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: How do we relate to this?
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: It requires more energy, which the nervous system is not wired for.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's wired to conserve, not to spend.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: So biology is a huge driver for sure.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: But also I want to bring in,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're almost out of time,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: but I want to bring up the,
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: from the IFS perspective,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: The family systems.
• 1:07:07
  I don't know if we're actually truly alone because IFS does not
• 1:07:10
  look at the human
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: being as a singularity.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: It looks at the human being as having multiple parts internally.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: So actually...
• 1:07:21
  The separation from your group,
• 1:07:24
  your family,
• 1:07:25
  society,
• 1:07:25
  that's one type of separation.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then loneliness in the context of the family constellation,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: whatever parts you have inside of you,
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: That is a different type of loneliness,
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: which actually complicates the whole experience of loneliness.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it like to be alone?
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you're alone, are you truly alone?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're still with parts internally.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then depending on what your relationship with those parts is,
• 1:07:55
  it could be an easier experience to be alone or a harder
• 1:08:00
  experience to be alone,
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: because actually when the external noise quiets down and you're
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now suddenly with yourself and your parts,
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: that's a whole other experience that you are privy to at that point.
• 1:08:18
  So I think this topic is actually quite expansive and we didn't
• 1:08:25
  even talk about the
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_00: internal reality of alone versus lonely.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_00: What were you going to say, Yulia?
• 1:08:35
  no yeah that's um i guess an interesting question that makes me
• 1:08:41
  think that our
• 1:08:43
  internal makeup also probably plays a role in how we are with
• 1:08:48
  loneliness and what
• 1:08:49
  we get from loneliness um right whatever the the parts that we
• 1:08:59
  have in us they
• 1:09:03
  have a lot in making decisions how it goes right and also the
• 1:09:10
  fact that we can be
• 1:09:11
  quite lonely or feel alone even when we're interconnected with
• 1:09:15
  someone when we are
• 1:09:17
  let's say in a relationship but we don't feel seen and
• 1:09:20
  understood we don't feel
• 1:09:22
  heard we're physically with another human but it could actually
• 1:09:26
  create the most
• 1:09:28
  intense sense of aloneness to be with another human than to
• 1:09:33
  actually be physically
• 1:09:34
  on your own some of my most profound loneliness has been in
• 1:09:39
  relation with other
• 1:09:40
  humans that are unwilling to see beyond themselves yeah no that
• 1:09:46
  experience the that
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: i shared it was totally like that that the presence of people
• 1:09:55
  created this intense sense of loneliness yeah so it could be
• 1:10:02
  our source of comfort
• 1:10:03
  and intense sense of separation and otherness yeah so we have
• 1:10:11
  just a couple minutes
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: left so to wrap this up maybe what where are you where this conversation
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I took a note of the two phrases, Yulia, that I still don't know
• 1:10:44
  what they mean for me and how make sense of them but i love
• 1:10:51
  like as always i love
• 1:10:52
  how you phrase it that loneliness is in the state that needs to
• 1:10:56
  be shaped that's so
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful and that's the shape is actually what transforms it into love
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: It would transform it into love,
• 1:11:16
  but it could also transform it into something on the other side
• 1:11:19
  of the spectrum.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on your internal makeup,
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: potentially the parts,
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: what your relationship with your internal parts is.
• 1:11:29
  I would like for us to have another conversation and maybe take
• 1:11:33
  it in this
• 1:11:33
  direction and maybe take it in other directions that are not so
• 1:11:38
  on the nose when it
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: comes to this topic as well.
• 1:11:41
  But I also loved your description of what do we get to shape
• 1:11:49
  when we experience the
• 1:11:51
  state of being alone and potentially feeling lonely or not
• 1:12:01
  feeling lonely as we are
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: being alone.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:11
  think there's a lot more in this topic to be covered yeah yeah
• 1:12:18
  to me it was um
• 1:12:21
  really moving somehow to talk about this painful process that
• 1:12:34
  has some kind of
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: sense funny like you mentioned right it's
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: It makes it easier to endure.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: our discussion today,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: it makes me,
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:12:54
  very curious to think more what it has created this experience
• 1:13:00
  in me or what it
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: wanted to create.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I still- Thank you for presencing that.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I still have a lot of questions.
• 1:13:11
  I didn't expect to have so many questions about a state that
• 1:13:17
  seems to be so familiar.
• 1:13:22
  But thank you for presencing the comfort there that I also now
• 1:13:26
  am present to.
• 1:13:26
  There is comfort in having this conversation and sharing how we
• 1:13:32
  feel as we're
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: exploring this topic,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: how we feel internally,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: making room and space for how each of us navigates this very,
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: very human thing,
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:13:46
  but so we're the the sharing actually helps to i guess
• 1:13:50
  co-regulate right and it
• 1:13:51
  creates a sense of flow and i like that we were able to talk
• 1:13:57
  about what you know is
• 1:14:01
  it could be an edge in terms of what what are you feeling
• 1:14:05
  internally how do you
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: verbalize this without having a total flood right of emotions
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think we navigated that part by talking about some deep things,
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: but still doing it in a way where we didn't get flooded.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's also like an interesting exploration, right?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of something that could be so triggering and so painful.
• 1:14:31
  I actually had to think about how do I do this vulnerably,
• 1:14:34
  but honestly,
• 1:14:37
  on a public forum.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_00: and still stay regulated and centered, but still be real, right?
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a whole other perspective on this topic.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing that, for being honest and vulnerable, both of you.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for everyone who listened.
• 1:15:01
  And if there is anything that was moved or shifted and you feel
• 1:15:07
  like sharing,
• 1:15:09
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• 1:15:13
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• 1:15:18
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• 1:15:22
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• 1:15:29
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