Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / From Skinny Fat to Strong and Lean (A Step-by-Step Guide) with Adrian McDonnell | Ep 181

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From Skinny Fat to Strong and Lean (A Step-by-Step Guide) with Adrian McDonnell | Ep 181 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:00
  Adrian McDonnell: As a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger often your you know your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22. I feel that if you just focus more on your performance and now you watch your body can do rather than how it looks, they're not necessarily separate.
• 0:18
  Philip Pape: Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights podcast today, I'm stoked to welcome Adrian McDonald to the show.
• 0:51
  Philip Pape: Adrian is a very experienced online transformation coach.
• 0:55
  Philip Pape: He's a former primary school teacher, and he spent over four years in education before following his passion for fitness. He's also the host of the very awesome lifestyle lifters Show podcast, which anyone who listens to Whitson weights is going to love that show. He's got a lot of great guests, some some guests we've had in common as well, like Steve Hall and others. So again, go follow the lifestyle lifters Show podcast. Adrian has transformed his life through training, just like we are all trying to do. And that inspired him to help others to do the same around the world. In fact, he's he's visiting right now from Dubai, he's reaching out from Dubai, but he's taught people and help people in the UK the US UAE where he is now Canada, Australia. He has something called the MC Lifestyle coaching method love that name. Adrian helps clients transform their bodies, improve performance, build confidence, and he does all the one on one online coaching to help clients you know get stronger, get toned, get fitter, improve their performance, all that good stuff. Today, you're gonna learn the real reasons you might be skinny, fat and weak right now.
• 1:53
  Philip Pape: And then what to do to get strong to feel energized to nourish your training and body and build that lean, well muscled physique that we are going for. Adrian will also share his personal journey with body dysmorphia, so you can come away with some strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Adrienne, welcome to the show, man.
• 2:12
  Adrian McDonnell: Philip, thank you so much for the wonderful intro. And I'm so so delighted to be here. Thanks for having me on.
• 2:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, man. I actually forgot how we connected but we connected and we're like, let's let's swap on our podcast because they're very aligned.
• 2:23
  Philip Pape: Yeah. Yeah,
• 2:26
  Adrian McDonnell: I think it was two months ago now at this stage. So it's a while in the making. So it's great to refine the up and running for them.
• 2:31
  Philip Pape: Exactly what the time zones and everything. And we wanted to do this back to back. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 2:36
  Adrian McDonnell: Even with it with the time changes they're trying to navigate because obviously at the end of the time chains in Eastern, I think in the middle of marriage, whereas in Ireland it is the end of marriage. So is like navigating a few things. But anyways, here we are. That's what matters most.
• 2:49
  Philip Pape: Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's funny, you mentioned Ireland, totally off topic, but I recently answered a guest q&a listener q&a, and I know you just did your own q&a.
• 2:58
  Philip Pape: And it's been a while since you had done one. And I said, Hey, it's always good to hear from people from across the pond. And he messaged me, he's like, actually, I'm in Nova Scotia.
• 3:06
  Philip Pape: And that's very similar accent.
• 3:06
  Philip Pape: Wow, okay. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I gotta remember to put on my like, you know, no assumptions hat Next, when I hear and see people, yeah, you can never be too sure. Exactly, man. So let's dive into the topic. And I'm sure people learn all about you. And again, they should just check out your podcasts and they'll learn about you that way as well for that let's talk about skinny fat definitely a term I like to throw around I just had a cardiologist on the show and we were talking about how people can be you know, they can kind of look thin or look skinny have this you know, thin body, but really be unhealthy in many ways and often comes down to you know, the body composition. So sure, what does it mean to be skinny fat? And why do we care so much about this?
• 3:47
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, fantastic question. Well, skinny fat essentially effed up as you you might be aware of, or maybe your listeners aren't, it's typically when you have a lower than normal amount of muscle mass, and a higher than normal amount of body fat. So this would have been me, you know, back in the day when I would have presented predominantly cardio base activity where no one would ever classify me as overweight. Yes, when I took my top off i that small little silver near body fat, and a lower the normal amount of muscle. So some people refer to it as like a mom, tome, a dad bod, feed and software. I'm in the middle, but I think we all get the idea.
• 4:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, Dad Bod that that resonates around that term all the time. Because my listeners know, I didn't I didn't even really lift properly until I was almost 40. Right?
• 4:28
  Philip Pape: I'm like 43 now and in just two or three years, you can make massive improvements.
• 4:32
  Philip Pape: Absolutely. Right. What contributes to skinny fat over time? How does it accelerate?
• 4:38
  Philip Pape: And then you know, we'll obviously get into what we can do about it. Yeah,
• 4:40
  Adrian McDonnell: fantastic. So I guess the root cause of being skinny fat Phillip comes from having a lack of muscle across your entire body. So often people they might be quote unquote, working out rather than training. And an example of this would be you know, first of all, I just preface by saying something is better than nothing. However, with that being said often might be a case he could go to like a group Been in class and you could do an hour cardio. Or it could be a case that you go to a group quote unquote, hit class. And it's like 45 seconds on 15 seconds off and you're doing mountain climbers, you're doing burpees, you're doing box jumps, you're in all of these fat burning exercises. However, none of these are really contributing to building some lean muscle, which is the root cause of being skinny fat. So what I would suggest for anyone in this category, we can go on to solutions and a wide OB rather than focusing on you know, burning calories through cardio through, you know, quote, unquote, hate classes, shift and put a big, big emphasis, which you're speaking about in your podcast, as well set up I know, uncompounded lifts on strength train, just in general getting stronger, because what you want to do is you want to shift your body composition to favor most of the last more than body fat, you use your diet as a means to you know, drop body fat, get a bit leaner tone up and use your training as a means to build muscle not to burn calories. So that will kind of be the root cause I would say like the wrong type of training and lack of emphasis on strength on strength work. And then we can also go into nutrition as well. But that's like just a brief overview. Yeah.
• 6:01
  Philip Pape: And there's so many good concepts there. And they're gonna, they're gonna go off into different tangents when we talk about principles. The first one you mentioned, was working out versus training. And we can't emphasize that enough, under percent. Let's expand on that, like, just so people know, even besides the cardio, let's say they do go to the gym, they're like, No, but I've been lifting weights for 10 years, or I've been doing CrossFit or I'm like slinging these barbells. You know, em wraps. What is the difference between that and what you're talking about with training? Yeah,
• 6:26
  Adrian McDonnell: I used to I used to work out I used not to train I used to go to the gym, I might start out with doing you know, bicep curls, then we could do some calf raises, then you could go on to the PEC tech, and then you're walking around, you might do but a core work. I know two workouts ever look like the same. But when you think about what's Train, train, and like it is a skill in itself it up. And suppose that you want to learn become fluent in Spanish. And imagine you practice Spanish Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and you do that consistently for we'll say three to four months.
• 6:53
  Adrian McDonnell: Whereas me I do Spanish on a Monday I do French on a Wednesday, I do German on a Friday, by the end of the three months who is going to be more fluent and better at Spanish strain train is exactly the same. So working out effectively is where you're seeing one thing on YouTube and you do that for day one, you see something else and iG you do that for day two, you you know you do a fancy circle, you saw an influencer do on day three, and no two workouts are ever the same. So it doesn't even have to mean that you're doing excess amounts of cardio, but it's more so like you're going in with a structure with a routine without a purpose.
• 7:27
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and how many times have you been on a, like a discovery call or something like that? Where and I get with women a lot and they say, Well, do you know such and such workout program on YouTube? They always ask me and I'm like, I can't keep up with them. Because there's so many and I have no idea of the quality of it.
• 7:42
  Philip Pape: Right?
• 7:44
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah. And I could look, I guess the idea is you said though the principle at least people are working out their training. And it's better than nothing. But I guess if it's the case that we want, this is a results business too. And if you do want to optimize that, you know, you don't need to sacrifice one to get the other.
• 7:58
  Philip Pape: Yeah, for sure. And you know, results business. And you mentioned skill development.
• 8:01
  Philip Pape: recently. It's been a while since I read atomic habits, James clear, everybody seems to now. But I was I was refreshing through the concepts. And one concept I always love is the compound interest of your habits of like, in one year, if you just improve 1% Every day, you're 30 700%. You know, you'd like 37 times better. Yeah.
• 8:21
  Philip Pape: Yeah. Like I said, yeah, yeah.
• 8:21
  Philip Pape: So like you said, what, even training three days a week doing progressive program? You know, what does that compound to?
• 8:29
  Philip Pape: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few different aspects of this too, because you mentioned spinning cardio classes, stuff like that. What do people say?
• 8:37
  Philip Pape: Well, you know, I enjoy that stuff, or I enjoy doing cardio, or I can't work out. I can't just lift weights, because, you know, either it's boring, or I don't like to be by myself or whatever other reason, you know, they like the group classes.
• 8:50
  Adrian McDonnell: Interesting.
• 8:50
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah. Fantastic question. So with that, I don't think it needs to be an either or like it's not, it doesn't have to be a case that you do weight or cardio it, there's a lot to be said he can do both, but rather like the first of all gotta just as you say, on your podcast setup, you got to reverse engineer, boss, the ultimate goal there. And often people say they wanted to use words like they want to shape they want to tone they want to get leaner.
• 9:12
  Adrian McDonnell: When you think about it, though, what gives your body that shape.
• 9:14
  Adrian McDonnell: And that tone, it's having muscle in the absence of body fat, you better more so by reps and weight to lose body type or being in a caloric deficit. So you can use your cardio as a means to get you in that caloric deficit. But if you really want to have that shape in that tone, that is where you know, some structured and routine strength work will come into play. So if someone and I think that's important, too, as coaches that I know a lot of, you know, for clients, they always like to finish a workout on the high and they just feel like they've achieved something even if they did a good workout, like almost get that sweat on. So if you do fall into that category, and you know, like you're spinning classes here like your head workouts, what you could do is add a five or 10 minute finisher at the end of your strength workout and that way you're getting the best of both worlds.
• 9:53
  Adrian McDonnell: You're doing some structured work, you're also you know, getting your heart rate elevated which is many benefits to itself on your end. Enjoying the feeling you're enjoying the process. But the big big bonus will be, you know, provide your father in a good program, you're also seeing results.
• 10:07
  Philip Pape: Yeah, that's that's a practical kind of your lifestyle way to do this that I love that example because adding something in that you enjoy even if it you know we're not, we always talk about practical versus optimal versus like 100% thing, right? And as long as you're prioritizing the thing that's most important, you've got a lot of room and flexibility to kind of fit other things in without overdoing it without overdoing it. Exactly.
• 10:29
  Philip Pape: Yeah, doing it. Yeah, one of one of the students in my group program, she, she had a similar concern. She said, You know, I love to do these group classes, but I also know the value of training. So she came up with her own idea to, like workout at home, one day a week, go to the gym, do one lifting session a week. And then the other day is the group class. She's like, I'm just gonna do the group classes.
• 10:52
  Philip Pape: And that's great, because now you're lifting twice a week, and were you doing zero before?
• 10:55
  Philip Pape: Absolutely,
• 10:57
  Adrian McDonnell: yeah, no, and there's a social element to it as well. Some for members are exactly the same. They might like combine both and unlock at the end of the day, it's getting the best of both worlds. But it's just making sure that you keep the goal, the goal. At the same time, you're not always program hopping, for sure.
• 11:12
  Philip Pape: You mentioned building building muscle versus losing fat. So we talked about skinny fat, when you recommend to clients who let's say they're a noob, right, they're just getting started for the first time. That's a certain scenario that's maybe a little distinct from an intermediate to advanced trainer who's been doing it a while. So let's let's do the different scenarios here. For a brand new person. And let's say they, they feel that they have 20 to 30 pounds of weight to lose fat to lose, which is not uncommon, right? Like unless you're in the more obese kind of metabolically unhealthy range or a different population. You often have like men, who are you work with men and women, right?
• 11:45
  Philip Pape: Or just women? Yeah, okay. Yeah.
• 11:49
  Philip Pape: And so you have men who are like 25%, body fat, kind of maybe pushing 30, but they're not like, you know, massively overweight, but they need to lose, they need to lose some weight to get into a healthy state, phase wise, go ahead, like periodization. And phase wise, what would you recommend
• 12:03
  Adrian McDonnell: the good news, the good news is like, if you're someone new to the gym, and you don't have a whole lot of experience, you can actually optimize both, like they are the champagne years, you need to take the most that make the most of so what I would do in that situation is you know, if this individual and say This guy is 25%, body fat, first of all, what we're speaking about, get them lift some weights, get them stronger, that's gonna give your body that shape and that tone, and then like a caloric deficit of Rafi below, kind of maybe 20% or so. So let's just say the maintenance calories are 2500.
• 12:29
  Adrian McDonnell: If we reduce those by 500 to 2000 a day, optimize your protein intake, all of a sudden, now you've gone from probably being under fed and over nourished to properly fueled, you're lifting weights, you have a good structure, you have a high protein diet, and that individual is gonna see changes in both muscle mass and reduction in body fat, even though he is in a caloric deficit, the more advanced and you know, experience where the more nuanced you have to be, but I would say that'd be like a good practical application standpoint, for someone without a whole lot of prior experience, get your lifting weights, you know, build your program around the fundamental compound lifts dependent on your experience level, high protein diet, you know, macro, and micro and nutrient dense foods. And then just making sure that you know, your your caloric amount is in alignment with your body weight and with your goals. Sure,
• 13:16
  Philip Pape: yeah. And so they do they do all these things super easy right now. I'm just kidding. It's always simple but easy. One at a time. Yeah.
• 13:20
  Philip Pape: Right. Yeah. And then they then they're, they've been training for, let's say, a year or two is when you've seen like, tremendous progress in that first couple of years when you've been doing it. And they got to what they consider lean ish, right? 15%, maybe 10% body fat number doesn't matter as much as like your own, how you feel and how you look and all that perform. What would then over year over year for the next 510 years, right? What would be a good amount of time spending muscle versus losing fat? Let's assume they want to cycle and they don't want to just sit at maintenance most of the time?
• 13:52
  Philip Pape: Oh,
• 13:54
  Adrian McDonnell: that's a that's a difficult question. I guess it would depend on the body composition fed up because like, if you're someone who you've more body fat to lose than muscle to gain, oftentimes I find from a confidence perspective, an individual's confidence will go from a five to an eight or nine when they start seeing themselves like they've never seen self before.
• 14:11
  Adrian McDonnell: So all of a sudden, they're you know, seeing more visibility in their abs, they're seeing more definition, I would almost suggest in that situation, get to like, you know, 10 to 12 for 10 to 15%, body fat, body fat for a guy, maybe 20 to 22% for female and then focus on doing what we call a lean bulk or lean gaining phase, where a lot of new research shows with our academies where, you know, the caloric surplus required to gain muscle. There was like two studies and one group is in like an excess of 600 calorie surplus. The other one was like maybe a minimum of five or 10%.
• 14:44
  Adrian McDonnell: I don't know the exact numbers, but both groups they essentially gained more or less the same amount of muscle mass for the group with a higher calorie caloric surplus, a significant increase in fat gain on top of that, so what I would do with that individual be in crease confidence reduce her body body fat, get them to like a live Saturday never what we call and then that way then you can focus on Okay, now we've we've reached goal eight, let's focus on adding some lean muscle. And this is like essentially the lifestyle cycle of a lifter you.
• 15:16
  Adrian McDonnell: You spend time code and body fat together but leaner, you've spent time you know, building some lean muscle, and then when you get your body fat levels high enough and you want to drop down again, you have a better basic go off, you looked at it better. And it's like just rinse and repeat cycle. Something similar to that. But again, it depends on the goals. Some people just want to be healthy, they want to be fit, they want to be able to play with their children, they don't want to be you know, stepping up and sage, a measure and every Marcin and Graham and for those individuals. So it's a case of James clear, like literally dialed in, what are the weekly non negotiables? What are the non negotiables you're gonna accomplish and every single week, and that could be three to four workouts, it could be 10k steps, it could be, you know, 8080 20 am nutrient dense foods, and just being consistent with that. But the more dialed anyway, the more nuanced you have to be, the more you have to like look at the details. So it depends on your your goals as well, because, for instance, I just had a consultation with a guy and he said, like, Look, I just want to be, I don't want to be weighing everything out. I don't want this to be taken over my life. So what do you want to do? What are you willing to do?
• 16:13
  Adrian McDonnell: What won't you do? And for some people, you don't need to be like this diet in that perfect.
• 16:18
  Adrian McDonnell: And the the the results been your probably your results are going to take that bit longer.
• 16:22
  Adrian McDonnell: But for someone who wants to take more seriously, that's going to be looking at like, you know, optimizing your train and your macros your protein and everything. Oh,
• 16:31
  Philip Pape: yeah. So I love the what you talked about with having non negotiables. And that's what comes up to me is process process oriented goals, right? Like, we talked about goal setting, we talked about outcomes, right. But then there has to be some sort of values that drive that goal. And that's like your, your, your why, right? Like you can really dig in on that why. And then either have, like you said, metrics you're going after, which are still goals, but they're in the short term, and they're measurable, maybe daily. And then, you know, process oriented outcomes, which happen constantly, you know, you constantly get the win. So for those listening to you like that's a great, even just starting right now, today, listening to this show coming up with that first, non negotiable, and it might be sleep, it might be I'm gonna hit the gym, you know, three days this week. And so what are you going to do about it? Those Listen, like, are you going to schedule that in? Put it number one on the list? Right?
• 17:23
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, um, it's just focusing on the person you want to become, like, see yourself as the person you want to become. And then every act you take, it's either helping or hindering that progress doesn't mean you have to be perfect. But just as long as you're moving in the right direction, as long as you're making those changes, like that's the ultimate wave of making that lifestyle change.
• 17:40
  Philip Pape: For sure. Yeah, we love that. It's no quick fixes here. It's a lifestyle. So you mentioned, I want to address a couple more scenarios. Let's talk about men. First, I have seen the spectrum that you've got the men who want to get super strong, they want to push their PRs, they understand the value of eating and gaining and even just absolute force production from having more mass, even if fat comes along for the ride, knowing they can cut it off later. And they kind of push themselves up into this range of like, let's say guy who's five, nine, you're good to inches, right? So right, yeah, a guy who's five nine, who wants to push up into that well over 200 pound range, and his bodyweight to kind of push his deadlift and his squat. And then at some point is going to have to bring that off. And then you have the guys who just want the six pack. And it's like, you know, I don't know if if there's a if there's an overall blueprint, you generally advise to people I know, it depends on your goals, but like to prevent people from going too far in one direction, or like making it much harder on themselves later on, you know what I'm saying?
• 18:39
  Philip Pape: Yeah,
• 18:39
  Adrian McDonnell: it's, I think it's just navigating the conversation. And sometimes like just getting into their psychology and their way of actually what they really want to accomplish. And then from that, like, you have to reverse engineer. Okay, so he said, you wanted to accomplish this, in order for us to do that these are some of our weekly or daily, non negotiables, we need to incorporate so for the individual who's five foot nine and over 200 pounds, he considered lift his way to consider lift heavy, but it's more so optimizing nutrition. So he's in, you know, a slight calorie deficit. Whereas maybe for the other individual who might be a bit skinny, but quote, unquote, as a six pack.
• 19:12
  Adrian McDonnell: It's just a polite way to say we might want to gain some maths while you know, maintaining that six pack, but just be open to the fact you might gain some body fat on top of that, for sure.
• 19:21
  Philip Pape: So you said reverse engineer, I love that that hits the engineer button for me, but and I love doing that right?
• 19:27
  Philip Pape: Working from the end and going back and then you've got you're basically starting to constrain yourself in this envelope of reality that says like, okay to get here, this is going to happen. And these are the trade offs and you can't deny that like that is reality. And to do something different means you have to change the choices and the paths along the way you have
• 19:44
  Adrian McDonnell: to change and it doesn't mean you have to change them all at once though, like that. I know that's something you preach as well, like it could literally be that you know, you incorporate a new habit every single week. I think it depends. I was well fed up because some individuals they weren't aware of just I don't like the all or nothing approach but For some individuals, they're like, I want to be balanced. But God forbid, they've been out of balance for, you know, 612 months where they actually have been the opposite direction. So to put them on, like maybe a stricter approach at the start might work better.
• 20:11
  Adrian McDonnell: So they see it quick when they start seeing results. And then you can have like periods of micro imbalance to get macro balance. So you could actually go, you know, and really, rather than dipping your toes, you go all in for maybe 90 days, and then slowly transition out as you start seeing results.
• 20:25
  Adrian McDonnell: Whereas for other people that might just want to take that slower approach. But the trade off is, you're not going to get, you know, quick wins as frequently and the results are going to take longer. So no approach isn't necessarily right or wrong. It's just rather like, what's your goal? What's your vision and what's really driving you?
• 20:41
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I love that micro balance and macro balance.
• 20:44
  Philip Pape: I like I like that idea. And even the idea of balance is like, it's become a buzzword where nothing's gonna be, you know, this perfect pie that's all sliced up equally. Exactly, you know, but you're right strictness, we sometimes like I use it to, I'll say, well, we don't do too restrictive diets.
• 20:58
  Philip Pape: But there's a level of strictness that can be helpful, especially when you have a coach or somebody kind of looking over your shoulder to support you if you fall a little bit out of that boundary. So that's a really good message. Because fat loss, for example, I have people reaching out all the time about rapid fat loss. And I'm like, well, let's sit on the brakes for a bit and just understand what you're trying to accomplish. And then if they're like, you know, I lift I do this, I do this, I do this, and I haven't been dieting in a long time. And I've been tracking and I know my maintenance calories.
• 21:26
  Philip Pape: And I'll do it for three weeks.
• 21:26
  Philip Pape: And I'll use refeeds. I'm like, alright, you know what you're doing? Like that'll work? You know, that's fine. Yeah, sure.
• 21:30
  Philip Pape: And go way beyond that. 1% and probably still hold on your lean mass. For somebody else who has been yo yo dieting, and they don't have to protein and anything, they're like, I want to do rapid fat loss. I'm like, No, you want a quick fix crash diet, that's not gonna work.
• 21:45
  Adrian McDonnell: So the big thing for that individual is they they might know how to do the rapid, but they don't know how to transition out of it. And that's unfortunately, why so many people rebound after an unsustainable fat loss phase.
• 21:57
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah,
• 21:57
  Philip Pape: there you go. For sure. And so speaking of women, I know we weren't speaking of women, but women tend to have the history of more frequent dieting, we just know that for a fact. And oftentimes, you know, women tend to want more fat loss, men tend to want more muscle gain. What is your general advice to most women who come in who have that history of dieting, they still are not happy with their body image and their size. And you know, they're like, I've just got to lose the weight, right? And they're open to strength training open using barbells, or open to die, protein and all that good stuff. Where would you start? Let's say after the initial maintenance phase, let's assume we go through like a maintenance phase. But exactly, I don't want to go
• 22:38
  Adrian McDonnell: ahead. Yeah.
• 22:38
  Adrian McDonnell: No, that that was literally it.
• 22:40
  Adrian McDonnell: Like, just get to know their history. First of all, like, what's your current nutrition looking like? And for some people, it might be a case, you just put them straight into, like, are you actually ready to go into a dieting phase, and you have to be like, mentally, sometimes it can be, there's got to be an element of hunger, so mentally after we prepared for that, so I would just, you know, go through the conversation, what's there, Wigan, and assuming that, you know, they haven't been following these restrictive crazy diets for a while, then you might like go through a restoration phase before going into a fat loss phase. But for some women, it's almost the opposite. And it might sound counterintuitive, where like, I had one client, Becky, and she's, she was a vegan, and you know, even very, very cleanly training six days a week, a lot of cardio, a lot of activity and 1100 1200 calories, she wasn't losing weight. Now, when someone says that, to me, I'm like, Okay, you might think you're you might assume you're consuming 11 or 1200 calories, not losing weight. But I genuinely love sharing my fitness pal that got her to upload photos, everything was dialed in. So over a 12 week period, we increase her from I think, maybe 1100 to 18 honors, and her weight went from like maybe 76, down to 69. So like that was just like a restoration phase more so because she just been dialed in at, you know, redundancy, low calories and over exercising for two years.
• 23:52
  Adrian McDonnell: So I really do think it does depend on the individual, whereas someone else might be a case that they're eating quote, unquote, healthy, but they're not losing weight. And they might actually be eating healthy when you look at their food or it could be something like part it could be some fruit in the morning. It might be some, you know, brown bread at lunchtime at some soup. But it's like typically like a low protein diet with like lots of high calorie dense food like knots like dark chocolate and so on.
• 24:16
  Adrian McDonnell: And if you just literally changed the caloric and the type of food that they're eating to favor more higher protein, higher fiber, those individuals they can actually drop that body fat and they're probably it's more so like their nutrition they need to diet it on. So I do think that a bit depends on the individual Long story short, they're on like just what their history is, what their goals are and what they genuinely would have tried in the bus.
• 24:38
  Unknown: Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach development with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die.
• 24:53
  Unknown: He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is The movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunger guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But
• 25:22
  Philip Pape: it always depends on the individual for sure. And these examples, you talk about where someone has been, quote unquote dieting and quote unquote 1100 calories, is are rampant, like these stories are super, super common. And you're right, the first question is, are you really consuming that?
• 25:37
  Philip Pape: And it's not that we're trying to gaslight people, we're trying to recognize that there's a gap in information. And there's some extra knowledge we can contain that we can gather about ourselves in our bodies. And that's very empowering for men and women to know, oh, you know what, I've actually been consuming 2000 calories. Now Adrienne has me consuming 1800 but unknown 1800. And that's why I'm kind of losing maybe right or whatever. Sure. Yeah. And doing it in a nourishing way. So let's let's talk about nourishment. You talked about overfed but undernourished before so we're trying to flip that around to properly fed but nourished, right?
• 26:10
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, absolutely. So like, really, it comes down to some of our printables or microwaves are fed. And so first of all, a plant and a protein and every single meal. So of all the meals, men and women, we often find that breakfast tends to be the most challenging one, that an individual gets their protein. And because it's often like just they're on the go, they might have some oatmeal or some porridge. It could be like Syria themself. And I get have to really be specific and dialed in with your protein and breakfast. But for any individual, well, I would recommend assuming that you're, you know, you're not overweight, take your body weight and multiply that by two. And that'd be a good, good target for you in terms of your daily protein intake. So if you're an 80 kilogram individual may, that'd be roughly 160 grams. If you're 60 kilogram female, that'd be roughly 120 grams. And once you know that number, just ask yourself, how many meals a day are you typically having, if you're having for me today, divide that number by four and that's roughly the amount of protein you want to have permeate. So for me at 160 grams a day divided by for me is very, very simple. 40 grams of protein. Now all of a sudden, how do I get 40 grams of protein? Well, that could be you know, 300 grams of Greek yogurt.
• 27:16
  Adrian McDonnell: It could be two scoops of protein and Kobe, two eggs and five egg whites, it could be 150 grams of chicken 150 grams, the sake it's actually not that hard once, as you say, further up, you reverse engineer. So that'd be the first principle plant or protein in every meal. The next one being a plant. So plant either fruit or vegetables. So what's your breakfast, it could be some fruit, blueberries with the porridge for lunch or Kobe, you know, some spinach, some salad, some veggies, etc. But they're the reason these things are important is because protein and fiber, so protein and plant, they will help keep you fuller, for longer. The ultimate goal of dropping body fat is you should aim to eat as much food as possible by staying within your caloric image. And a good way to do that is high protein, high fiber and also drink lots of water.
• 28:00
  Philip Pape: Yeah, awesome.
• 28:00
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I mean, we preach exactly the same thing. And just to convert the numbers for Imperial, right. You mentioned two grams per kilogram. That's like one gram or one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No worries. There was a study, I think in the latest body by science. I don't know if you subscribe to that. Dr. Bill Campbell. Oh, yeah. Very good.
• 28:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah. No, I was in that I was in that an issue in May I just to toot my own horn, I was in there, talking about ABS and something on carbs. But anyway, the recent issue, he reviewed a study on protein that showed that two populations consuming the same calories, one that had low protein, one had high protein, their body composition improved, even in the lack of strength training, which is incredible. It just shows the value of having that high protein in your diet. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. I can I can look it up for you see what the study is? Because we're a big fan of using evidence. And like you mentioned earlier about gaining muscle and not getting too much fat. I think you're talking about the helms
• 28:56
  Adrian McDonnell: absolute headache disorder. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:59
  Philip Pape: I mean, we can if I can remember, I can throw those throw those in here. Yeah, yeah.
• 29:01
  Philip Pape: So I don't know what else there is with skinny fat other than, you know, get started today, like training and building muscle, right? Yeah, for
• 29:10
  Adrian McDonnell: sure. Like, literally, if there is a three step process, I would say, you know, lift weights, focus on the components, which is your watch yourself, watch, you're always speaking about not saying to cut out or, you know, to remove the cardio, but rather, I'd say, spend double the amount of time lifting weights you do doing cardio. So if you do two hours or one hour of cardio a week, try to two hours away two weeks, and then just finally, nourish your body property by adding the high protein, high fiber, nutrient dense foods and just making sure you're consuming the right amount for you and for your specific goals. Beautiful
• 29:41
  Philip Pape: and I'm sure you found that that that comes up almost every podcast episode you've ever done to some extent, and we have to revisit it over and over because I think it's good to be able to know
• 29:49
  Adrian McDonnell: what record repetition is the mother thing as sometimes that we need to be reminded more than we need to be taught.
• 29:56
  Philip Pape: I know we remind ourselves as well. Absolutely.
• 29:59
  Philip Pape: So let's Would you know, a little more psychology and get into the Body Dysmorphia topic?
• 30:02
  Philip Pape: I think that's a really important one. Because when we talk about skinny fat, are we even use labels for shapes of bodies? Are we talking about body composition? Everything else? Yeah, there are a lot of benefits beyond physique, right?
• 30:13
  Philip Pape: We can talk about all the benefits of having muscle mass to the date, you want to be lifting to, like, I always say, I want to die doing a deadlift when I'm like 99, or whatever.
• 30:21
  Philip Pape: But you've had a history with, you know, body image challenges.
• 30:24
  Philip Pape: So tell us about your experience. I'll just leave it open, tell us your story, and then how it shaped your approach to where you got to today?
• 30:32
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, for sure. I'm not sure really sure when it started. So I guess when when you initially started lifting weights, and you see yourself look like you've never seen yourself before, I would have almost tied a lot of my identity to my body fat percentage. So when I was looking leaner, I'd almost like I'd obviously be happier then.
• 30:51
  Adrian McDonnell: But then if I gained a small bit of body fat or you had a bit of fun every now and then you went for you know takeout with your family or you just had some drinks at the weekend, and then you woke up the following morning, you're feeling somewhat bloated. It's almost like your own worst enemy is living between your two ears. Like you're feeling guilty, you're feeling ashamed, like, what are you doing, and I fell into this road where I would nearly have to like exercise to undo quote unquote, undo the damage of you know, the the naira which involve an avocado or maybe the odd takeaway. And I would say then, Dhaka to its height nearly last year, not necessarily the Avocode site, but definitely the body dysmorphia site. Because I competed for the first time in bodybuilding. And it probably wasn't something that I was fully prepared for, like I just, I didn't even intend on competing last year, but I just did a mini course and then that transition to well, you know, bought it. And then all of a sudden, my year, there's a natural body bodybuilding competition on maybe seven or eight weeks from now, when I was already in decent shape after a photoshoot. And I got my body fat levels to you know, single digits and you know, basically peel to the bone. But the aftermath, then, when you see yourself looking like that, and you like tie a lot of your identity to who you are the type of person you are to having that low body fat percentage. When I started, like gaining a small bit of body fat, I did find it hard to accept. And this I came also, which again, I don't think I'll compete again, but I just an obsession with food, like every year a day is literally thinking about your next meal.
• 32:17
  Adrian McDonnell: And that was a something I found quite difficult. So thankfully, last year, I was working with a mentor, business mentor, but he also competed themselves. And I just spoke to him about that.
• 32:27
  Adrian McDonnell: And he said, you know, that was some of the challenges that he himself also went through. And one thing that surprised me that he told me was shift your focus away from how you look. And rather than setting physique based goals, like I want to be x weight, or X body fat percentage, yes, that's all good. But why not folks to like a performance based code. So actually, just last week, I hit one of my big performance based goals that I would have set this year, but had in mind last year, we're gonna sub 20 minute five kilometer run. And just when you shift your focus away from how you looked, how you perform, you're getting out of your own head, you're focused on getting stronger in the gym. And that does require that you're fueling your body properly, rather than like just restricting yourself.
• 33:04
  Adrian McDonnell: And to be honest, man, ever since I've done that, and just had that mindset, particularly the last couple of months, like mentally I'm feeling much better physically, sure, have a bit more body fat, but like, I just I feel like I'm able to perform better, I feel much stronger, and just in a better headspace overall. So what I would say to any man, I love that, yeah, the visual and that's Danny, anyone with these, there's more to you than your image, there's more to you than your body weight, there's more to you than your body fat. And like just focus on what you're what you can, you can actually do with the right approach with the right mindset.
• 33:36
  Adrian McDonnell: And like Food is fuel at the end of the day. It's actually needed to survive. And, you know, yes, it is nice to have a lean and an aesthetic look with your body.
• 33:47
  Adrian McDonnell: But don't get to a point where it's almost like it's over consumed in your life and you're actually not able to, you know, get some element of enjoyment fromage.
• 33:56
  Philip Pape: Yeah, man, thanks.
• 33:56
  Philip Pape: Thanks for sharing that. And it sounds like you know, it was recent. And even though you know, your, your highly accomplished, established coach, you know, we're not perfect.
• 34:03
  Philip Pape: We're human beings ready. We all struggle with things. For sure.
• 34:05
  Philip Pape: Yeah,
• 34:07
  Adrian McDonnell: last year is at its peak. Like I'm not saying it's ever gone, because, you know, some some days it still does come back. But assess yourself talk. It's your mindset. And and I'm definitely like, in a better, much, much better position, even now to speak about it than there would have been, like last year after the body. But it wasn't always a lack of energy. It was a lack of drive a lack of motivation.
• 34:26
  Adrian McDonnell: Like, it's hard because you're almost living in this bubble where every day is like, you can nearly predict how the day's gonna go before it even starts to train. When it's your steps.
• 34:35
  Adrian McDonnell: It's your cardio, it's your routine and stay in it stay out.
• 34:38
  Adrian McDonnell: And I just found it hard. And when you're in this problem, you're just like so dialed in, to suddenly transition out of the year at all of athletes who they get some element of depression or a year and a lot of CEOs or business owners, they sell their multi million or billion dollar business, but then they just they tie so much their identity into that thing that they don't even think about the aftermath. And while I'm not the same In the sense of the bodybuilder, but it was more so the routine and something that I was married to that when I to get out of that. And then all of a sudden you see yourself gaining some weight, it can be sometimes hard to take it on prepare yourself mentally for it. But with that being said, I'm so grateful to have gone through because now like I've become a much, much better coach. And I can relate to some of my clients who have some of the seminary challenges, I had a conversation with a guy recently, something similar, or even like just anywhere in a fat loss phase like you, okay, you're feeling hungry, you're in a calorie deficit comment, that's a good thing. It's a sign your metabolism is adapting, you're dropping weight, you're dropping body fat. And it's a sign that it's working. But look, it was an experience, man.
• 35:36
  Adrian McDonnell: And and it was it's been great to go through them. And it's also great that, you know, I'm least on on the other side of us are moving in the right direction, to say the least.
• 35:44
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I mean that there are a lot of lessons there. For folks who including the idea that Think twice before you go after an extreme goal of any kind, whether it's athletic or otherwise, like you said, even in business where that actually when we talked about balance before, that is something that can shift your balance to where you're, you know, consumed or completely focused on this. And it doesn't happen. Like, like you said, there are some positives, I'm sure you learned a lot through that process. I remember talking to Steve Hall, and I know you talked to him as well, like he's a big fan of, of making yourself more resilient and kind of gritty, through these kinds of things, but not letting them become your life forever.
• 36:21
  Adrian McDonnell: You know, for sure. Yeah. And just not wrapping all of your identity into one thing identity.
• 36:26
  Philip Pape: Yeah, sure. Yeah, physique based goals instead of performance based goals. It's funny, you mentioned all that about body fat, I just did a training like yesterday in my community about body fat, because people are always asking like, about body fat percentage, and how to measure and everything. The overall theme was like, it's just a little number. It's not very accurate.
• 36:42
  Philip Pape: But we can use it to tell trend.
• 36:45
  Philip Pape: But let's not use that as our goal. Let's not use body fat as our goal. Let's let's do the more deeper goals. Yeah, you're emphasizing that.
• 36:52
  Adrian McDonnell: But the ironic thing is, that often when you focus on the performance based goals, as a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger, often your you know, your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22, I feel that if you just focus more on your performance, and how you watch your body can do rather than how it looks. They're not necessarily, they're not necessarily separate. For sure.
• 37:15
  Philip Pape: I think that can be very helpful for folks who want to build muscle and are afraid of gaining weight at all, like on purpose, because I remember the first time I did that, and I gain weight on purpose. It was like it was liberating at the same time, but very scary, right? Because I'm here I am drinking whole milk or pounding down all these calories. And I'm like, I'm actually gaining weight on purpose, but doing it in a controlled way along with the training, which I had never done before. So we you know, when you say focus on everything, but the scale weight other than a tool to kind of measure retro actively that you've got the right calories and things, it can be very liberating, because then you're like, Oh, my, my lifts are going up. My energy is going up. I'm getting more sleep. My hormone markers are better, like all those things can. Yeah, especially especially when you're gaining right? Because then everything is kind of empty. Yeah,
• 38:02
  Adrian McDonnell: for sure. For sure. Yeah. No, it's It's, it's the lifesaver, the lifecycle of an F show. We're saying at the start for the
• 38:08
  Philip Pape: improvement, the improvement season, you wouldn't be living more in the improvement season than the cutting season, I would hope.
• 38:14
  Adrian McDonnell: Absolutely.
• 38:14
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah. Over the long term. And that's something you see a lot of elite athletes over here in Dubai, and a lot of them are saying, like the ratio of time they spend in a fat loss versus a you know, an improvement phase is what you're saying it's like, minimum for some people that's like six to one in terms of years. And for others, people might be like a three to one.
• 38:31
  Adrian McDonnell: But really, there's a lot to be said of just building a good solid foundation and base by packet on muscle. And then once you have that base, you know, that's when you can focus on like trimming it down while we're speaking on at the start.
• 38:43
  Philip Pape: Yeah, what about let's let's talk. Let's go back to women. Because I tend to see, I tend to see Body Dysmorphia more common in women, but obviously with men who've gone through something like you did, and I think there's a big influence because of social media. So let's get into that thought of those thorny waters of the fitness industry, social media, how they contribute to this, how we should maybe put our critical thinking hats on even like men and women listening to this and looking at their content in their feed.
• 39:10
  Philip Pape: Like, is there an approach they might take? That's a healthier approach to help them out?
• 39:14
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, well, like social media. First of all, it's a highlight reel, and like, so all you you have to ask yourself, like, what did that individual do? Or what does he or she have to do in order to maintain that body fat level?
• 39:27
  Adrian McDonnell: Like for me last year, this was you know, relentless fat loss phase of God 15 weeks plus, but it was like everything was dialed in to a tee like 15k steps, cardio strength training and like every single day, so the amount of hours you're putting in a week for that, like, I love the three www questions. What do you want to do, what he went into What won't you do? And if you have that, you know, body dysmorphia, and you're looking at that individual, but then if you were told that okay, if you want to get there Susan, are you with To train seven days a week, are you willing to walk 15k steps, so you're in to do you know, 610 sessions and five cardio sessions per week. And if that's something you're willing to do you know what you might get there down the line. But for a lot of people, when you actually understand the trade off, not to mention your energy that was being on the floor, like, often, it's actually you probably don't want to get to that place. So that's what I would say there.
• 40:22
  Adrian McDonnell: It's like, just really social media can be at higher rate. And also you have to understand like, the way the way lightness go now and like, you see people, literally, it's like the lightning in a hotel jam, or they optimize everything, like, you can look very, very good and deceptively good, just for like, one fold, or you don't always look like that. So they're just some ways that I would say like, what's that individual have to do to maintain that shape? And that physique? Yeah,
• 40:50
  Philip Pape: and it is, it is.
• 40:50
  Philip Pape: Incredibly, I guess it's scary how the algorithms are designed so well, to push you down a rabbit hole, more and more in that direction. You know, as soon as you even tap on an image and Instagram, and look at it for so many seconds, the algorithm has said okay, engagement is high. I'm going to show you more like that. And even more extreme versions of that is just keep you hooked on the thing. So just people are this is like the extreme of the extreme. It's not reality.
• 41:18
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And that's not to say there's anything wrong with like, you know, striving to become the best version of yourself, but you run your own race, run your own race, don't compare your chapter one to someone else's chapter five, because also, of course, be there like that individuals been training for 10 years longer than you. And sometimes, you know, for someone listen to this, you're like, God, am I seeing results, sometimes they would fall into this bracket, but you just have to, you might be doing anything wrong, you just need to expand the timeframe. Give yourself a bit more of a runway. And like over time, you can you know, optimize your performance, your physique and how you look but you know, you can you just focus on yourself. That's what I find works best. And also one other thing with this, and this is huge, and Dubai, Phillip, and we got to agree, they're like TRT testosterone steroids. In the gym that I trained in, I would say nearly 90% of people are using some form of, you know, some form of optimization there.
• 42:10
  Adrian McDonnell: So it's not even a level playing field anymore. And you don't know what anyone is doing on social media. So again, no need to compare, you just focus on yourself and running your own race.
• 42:20
  Philip Pape: Awesome. So speaking and focusing on yourself. Do you have any advice for people who are not focusing on themselves at the moment and are concerned with whether it's their body image skinny, fat, even even to the level of dysmorphia, maybe they've had a history of that, like, what what's one piece of advice you'd give them today, maybe it's a, maybe it's a little bit of psychology or mindset, maybe it's a specific tip that to get started,
• 42:42
  Adrian McDonnell: just what I was saying focus on your performance rather than your focus on how your body can perform rather than how you can look and set a performance based goal that it's going to stretch you. And it could just be a case you do 10 bodyweight chin ups, it could be a case that you do deadlift, double your body weight, but just focus on those kinds of goals. And that way, you're going to start loving the process of just working out more. And that's the ultimate goal with this, like fitness.
• 43:03
  Adrian McDonnell: It's not a finite game, there's not a winner or loser. It's an infinite game, the goal should be to keep on playing every single day. And I think a good way of doing that is like just setting yourself goals that's going to get you up in the morning to get you excited about your workouts. And something you've worked you can work towards. And if that is a challenge yours, you know, speak to coaches like Philip and he can ensure, you know, guide you in the right direction in terms of like, what to follow what to focus on. And sometimes you just need a second opinion to get out of your own head. And also understand these thoughts are normal, like I myself fully gone through them. I know a lot of other coaches as well, who would have had some other similar challenges. So don't feel you're alone in this situation. And sometimes it might just be a case of reaching out and speaking to an individual. And, you know, maybe get them to outsource some of your programs, some of your training for you.
• 43:48
  Adrian McDonnell: So you're not only stuck in your own head,
• 43:51
  Philip Pape: I love that these these thoughts are definitely normal. You're not alone, seek help. There's help that comes in so many ways. Don't you know, don't think you have to hire a one on one coach. There are many, many ways to do it from the podcast, to group communities, to group programs to one on one to all sorts of ways to get help. And you're not alone. Pick something that can stretch, you focus on the process, and then you're going to start to love the process.
• 44:13
  Philip Pape: And that's how the results come very exciting. Man. I want to ask you this. I do ask it of all guests. What did you wish I had asked that we didn't cover? And what is your answer?
• 44:22
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, great question. I think well, they say you're on what fuels you and keeps you go.
• 44:28
  Philip Pape: Go ahead what fuels you and keep us going besides food.
• 44:33
  Adrian McDonnell: So I think the big thing for me, it's just progression, like I just growth improvement. Like even if it's a case that I knock five seconds off my 5k Run, or you add on a 1.25 kilogram or two and a half pound plate, you're dead like some form progression. I'll always finish every workout on some form volley. So it doesn't even have to be adding more weight to the variable. It could just be I got 15 chin ups last week. I got 15 this week but They've added 15 plus one. And it's one more than it did last week. And you know, that's that compounding effect again. So for me in all areas of my life, once I'm seeing that I'm not stagnant if I'm somewhat improving and growing. That's what really fuels me and keeps we go.
• 45:14
  Philip Pape: And that's the epitome of a growth mindset right there knowing that you can improve, you can do it in all areas, you might have setbacks like he did last year, but even those teach you to grow. I know you talk about happiness a lot on your show, or what it's one of the last questions I think, on your show. Sometimes I was recently studying positive psychology, there's a framework in there called the perma model.
• 45:34
  Philip Pape: And perma stands for five things that are associated with well being and happiness, the A's accomplishment, which is what you're talking about, and then E and there's engagement, which is like the process and being in flow and being totally natural doing, you take those combined with some relationships and meaning and positivity. And man, you got a recipe for success.
• 45:54
  Philip Pape: 100%
• 45:55
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, in that one of out said, what you want to do, where you want to live, who you want to spend your time with. Like, if you figure out those three things, happy with what you're doing happy with where you live, and you've got good at, you know, relationships with people around you. Like, for me, that's my fuel happy.
• 46:09
  Adrian McDonnell: That's my successor happiness formula. Very simple. But you know, it's, it's often the small things that actually don't turn out to be the small things.
• 46:20
  Philip Pape: And on that inspiring note, oh, man, where can listeners learn more about you find your work look you up.
• 46:25
  Adrian McDonnell: Yeah, fed up.
• 46:25
  Adrian McDonnell: But I really appreciate you bringing me on and really enjoyed this episode. Also, for any listeners who want to learn more about me, you can just pop me a follower, check out my content on Instagram. So on Instagram, I'm Adrian McDonald.
• 46:37
  Adrian McDonnell: And my handle is at Mac lifestyle fitness. So that's MC lifestyle Fitness on Instagram.
• 46:45
  Adrian McDonnell: And Phillip thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it, brother.
• 46:48
  Philip Pape: It was so awesome.
• 46:48
  Philip Pape: We got to be blessed with all of your wisdom. So thank you so much for coming on.
• 46:52
  Adrian McDonnell: Brilliant.
• 46:52
  Adrian McDonnell: Thank you so much.
• 46:55
  Philip Pape: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them.
• 47:07
  Philip Pape: And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.