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Future Proof Your Mortgage Marketing: Merging AI with Human Connection · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this episode of The Mortgage Marketing Radio Podcast.
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Before we get into my special guest today, we're going to do a little bit of math.
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If you're listening, you're likely a mortgage loan originator,
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professional or business leader in the industry. Maybe you're a real estate agent,
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and shout out to you if this podcast was introduced to you by a loan officer.
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How would you like a 62% conversion rate on prospects?
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Well, that's exactly what happened for one of our members of my agent class,
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his community, who recently hosted a class in which she had eight prospects.
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These are real estate agents who showed up for her class and booked five appointments
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to have conversations about working more closely together.
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But it doesn't stop there. What if you actually hosted a class, 18 agents registered and 14 showed
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up, and you applied that same conversion ratio of 62%.
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Or what if you had 18 agents attend your class and the class was filled by the local board of
1:02
realtors so that you actually didn't even do most of the work with getting bus in the seats,
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and the same thing. You apply a proven system and strategy for converting that attention to
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conversations. That's what we're talking about here. The number one reason why you're probably not
1:16
getting more referrals from real estate agents is you're probably not talking to enough agents.
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You are a secret agent. Not enough mortgage, not enough real estate agents know you exist in your
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town. And so the first problem to solve is to simply increase your awareness to scale your
1:33
reach so you can scale your engagement to drive more conversations that drive more referrals.
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It is a numbers game. It is the law of large numbers. And that is the number one constraint.
1:43
Most law officers are facing when they want to get more agents. They're either chasing,
1:47
co-calling, and putting themselves in the position of a vendor, not a partner. And what we do in
1:52
my agent classes is we flip the script, turn the tables on them. And now they're coming to you.
1:58
And they are part of your tribe. They dig your vibe because guess what?
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I'm not talking CE classes when agents to show up to learn more about the topics that we provide
2:08
in my agent classes such as AI unfair advantage, optimizing your Google business profile,
2:14
how to get found in AI search, database marking, leveraging seller concessions,
2:19
the cost of waiting to buy a home YouTube for real estate, and many, many others. Without you
2:24
having to be a subject matter expert, but more so, the messenger because the value is not in
2:29
you. The value is in the message and the content you deliver. And that's what we do at
2:34
my agent classes. And that's why you can get the kind of results that you're hearing about right
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here today. And if you'd like to learn more, see if this is a fit for you. There's a link in the
2:42
show notes or you can simply go to the website, which is go.my agent classes.com. And go watch the
2:49
video. It's got testimonials, success stories, how law officers are scaling the reach in the
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referrals with real estate agents without co-calling, chasing, or paying for leads. And you get to see
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a quick behind the scenes look at the my agent classes platform. And if you decide it's for you,
3:04
they'll be a link there where you can schedule a call with me. That's right. You and me,
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we'll have a conversation. We'll learn more about each other. We'll unpack your business. We'll
3:12
have a talk about strategy. And we'll see if we're a fit for each other. And if we're not, that's
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cool. We'll part his friends. And hopefully you continue listening to the podcast. But if you
3:21
are potentially right for our platform and program, well, YouTube could be well on your way to
3:25
doubling your referrals in the next 90 days and adding an extra two or three loans a month to your
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business, what would that be worth to you? So once again, check the link in the show notes. Go to
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go.myengineclasses.com. Okay. My special guest for today is James Duncan. James is first of all
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an awesome dude. He's also recognized leader in the mortgage marketing industry. As a matter of
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fact, he was a honored by housing wire and 2022 named as marketing leader. So that says a lot. And
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James has quite the stellar career when it comes to building marketing strategies, running teams,
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and delivering growth focused marketing systems. So during our conversation with James,
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which is on site, well, I was in Texas for the sales mastery event. What we talk about is
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kind of the like the next evolution of AI here with marketing. Okay. So now to my special guest,
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I got a question, are you feeling the pressure to adopt AI in your market? But you're worried that
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it might cost you your personal brand. It might affect the personal touch that your clients value
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most. Look, you're not alone. We've all thought of that, but let's face it. The world is shifting fast
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and the real challenge isn't just keeping up with the latest tools. It's knowing how to use them
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without losing what makes you trusted and relatable. Hey, you're listening to the mortgage marketing
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radio podcast where we help mortgage professionals get more clients, close more loans through proven
4:49
marketing strategies. My name is Jeff Zimfer, your host and your marketing coach. Today on the show,
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we're asking, how do you future proof your marketing by integrating AI without sacrificing the human
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connection that drives real relationships and results? And to help us dive deeper on that, we're
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joined by James Duncan, a marketing strategist known for helping markets executives build resilient,
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growth focused marketing systems to thrive in any market. As a matter of fact, that James was
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named marketing leader by housing wire and 2022. So in this episode, we're going to talk about how to
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modernize your marketing strategy with AI in a way that supports not replaces you or your team. Why
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human connection still drives trust and conversions in a digital first world? And how to align your tech
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brand and people from oh, and by the way, there's a twist you might not expect where we talk about
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relying too heavily on automation can actually damage your brand if you're not careful.
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So if you're ready to bring your marketing into the future without losing what makes it personal,
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stick around and listen to this episode of mortgage marketing radio.
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James Duncan, welcome to the show. Jeff Zimfer. Thank you for having me on, man. It's an honor.
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Yeah, it's great to meet with you in real person finally here in Dallas, Texas.
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Absolutely. We're here for the sales mastery event. Appreciate you coming up and making time from
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your busy schedule. Of course. So you got a lot going on in your life a little bit. Yeah, a little bit
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little busy. I want to talk about what you're doing now in the marketing space because a lot of people
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listening may be familiar with you from the role you've had in marketing in leadership for years,
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helping mortgage companies. But now you're doing something a little bit different. And so why don't
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you just first for a moment tell us what it is that you're doing now with your new venture and what
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what the real what's the what's the purpose behind that? What's the impact you're looking to have?
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What's that? Sure. Well, what I've done is for about the last seven months. I have launched out
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and started my own marketing consulting agency. It's called Kyloom Advisors. I used to spell advisors
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ERS because Kyloom Advisors within ORS was already taken. But so it is an acceptable spelling of the
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word. So I was very happy. The former English teacher and me. Oh, really? Former English teacher.
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Exactly. Oh, wow. Former high school English. Okay. But Kyloom Advisors is the name of the company.
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And the whole gist of why I started what I have started is because and you've been doing this
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for long enough, Jeff, you're this is not going to come a surprise as a surprise to you. But
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it's my opinion that the mortgage industry as a whole has done a notoriously horrendous job.
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And educating consumers on what truly matters when it comes to evaluating more mortgage strategy.
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And that stems from marketing. The marketing message is the outgoing comms and the way that we
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position ourselves and the marketplace and the things that we put on our social media graphics and
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the way that we just advertise our services, we've been woefully inept and delivering the
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right message to the consumer. And as a result, it's kind of put us in this position where we're
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suffering from these issues that were of our own design with competing on right and basically
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just competing on the wrong thing. And instead of talking about how we solve problems,
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talking about the benefits of loan programs when consumers really don't care about that stuff.
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And so the whole purpose of starting Kyloom was to help educate instead of in my previous roles
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where I was working with loan officers and sales teams directly. And the hundreds or thousands
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of loan officers that I would touch in that role and kind of inverting that funnel.
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And instead targeting C-suite executives, founders of mortgage companies and even real estate firms.
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And helping to educate them on what smart, modern marketing strategy looks like.
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And allowing that to kind of permeate down through the rest of the organization.
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So once I educate them, then they are the ones who are directing the culture and the direction
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and the decision making of the entire company. And the sales teams tend to fall suit. And so I
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thought I'd have a little bit more a little bit better success by inverting that funnel and targeting
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executives in C-suite. Because it starts from the top now. It really does. It really does. And
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that's a lot of the struggle that I had now. I benefited from working for executives who understood
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this, who understood these kinds of things. But I still wasn't impervious to the frustrations
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trying to execute on something that I knew was going to make a difference. But either couldn't find
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the budget or couldn't quite justify it in the right way. And really struggled to get a lot of
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those effective solutions implemented. Now it's a little bit different. Because when it's
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a voice coming from inside the organization, it tends to be viewed a certain way. But when it's
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an expert from outside the organization who comes in and says, you need to be doing AB&C,
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you know, especially when they're paying for that council, it tends to carry a little bit more
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gravity. Exactly. You mentioned something there. If I caught it correctly, in terms of the content,
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and the messaging that we've seen traditionally put out, that if I caught this correctly,
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correct me if I'm wrong, but that consumers don't care about loan programs.
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It's not that they don't care about loan programs. It's that they don't care about all the minutia
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that we tend to advertise or the tend that we tend to work into our messaging. Instead of
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truly framing it from a standpoint of this is how this program is going to solve your problem.
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Right. Problem solving. So what would be a traditional way you think somebody, let's say,
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a loan officer is trying to create video content that you've seen out there, that would be not
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the right messaging regarding, you know, a loan program, but it's not putting the right framework,
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that'd be appealing. Well, we could always dredge up the painful subject of date-to-rate
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marry the house. That was a good one, right? That was date-to-rate marry the house. That was,
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say it was an abysmal failure, but it was certainly. It was crazy how many people latched onto that
11:26
thing, and it was like a MLM pyramid or something, and it's just like, boom, but just kept going and
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going. It's like, who's getting royalties? It was a clever, pithy statement. I get why it took off
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the way it did. But as a marketing director, this is the background I was running marketing for
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Thrive. I had numerous requests coming in from the field. My team said, hey, we're going to
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a lot of questions. We just go ahead and do something just to shut them up. I was like, heck, no. I might
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have used a choice word, but I was like, absolutely not. Our brand is not going to be associated with
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that comment. Oh, so you were like, no, I do not want you. No, okay, no. And just because I didn't have,
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I just kind of sometimes as a marketer, you just got to go with your credit. And I did not have a sense
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that this was going to play very well over the long term, not saying that I'm going to have a
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crystal ball or that my predictions always write or anything like that. But I just on its face,
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I was like, I don't like using that as a tagline or as any kind of slogan or statement or
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ad line. But I do understand why it took off. Sure. Because people like
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short, punchy, quick hitting lines that illustrate a point. And so I understand the kind of the
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fewer behind it. That's one example. But anytime that folks will try to infuse, like low
12:51
low down payment options or temporary buy downs, as another really good example, where you're
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selling a short term solution without really having enough bandwidth or enough white space,
13:05
we'll call it to really say, now this might not be the right solution for you. If this, if ABC
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does not happen, this is actually a bad situation for you. So we sell benefits rather than
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solutions. So we're selling kind of the shiny bell and whistle just to get them out of the house,
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you know, without really doing the full on job of saying, well, I have on my business card or on
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my website, I'm going to be your lender for life. Okay. One is the last time you talk to them.
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One is the last time you actually picked up the phone and talked to them. Now somebody listening
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said, well, yesterday, great. If you do have that follow-up system in place, but statistics demonstrate
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that the vast majority of lenders, I think it's what, 85% was the less statistic that I saw,
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85% of home buyers don't go back to the last loan officer that they used. Wow. Which is
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pretty significant. Yeah, that's very bad. Well, it's a challenge, right? We're in this sound
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by world, right? It's personal social media with these little 30-second reels or whatnot. People
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are trying to get some hook messaging out there with hopefully the plan to move them to the next
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stage. Back to the whole date, the rate, the mayor, the house thing, the problem that I think
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you recognized and I saw with that is it's a sea of sameness. Everybody, you're just parroting
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the exact same message. How does that create any differentiation at all? It's the same issue
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they have with saying that we're better than the other guys. And this is not a reference to
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better.com. That's not the slogan, is it? We're better. We're better or saying we're the best.
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Like those are tactics that are basically saying we're effectively saying we're the same
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with only marginal differences. Whereas when you're able to really step back and say we're the
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only lender that does XYZ, that's going to be something that resonates. Really, you're the only
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one that can do that. Okay, then prove it. And then that's more of a conversation starter than
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saying we're the best. I've got kind of a funny anecdotal story about any time my wife and I see
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a billboard or see something where somebody's claiming to be having the best hamburger, something
15:19
like that. We'll look at each other and we'll say who voted? Because we're at a restaurant
15:24
marble falls, Texas. Not too long ago. Up on the very top of the menu, big bold letters. It said
15:30
best best hamburger or marble falls. Waitress came over take our order and I pointed to that. I said
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who voted? I was just joking around. And my wife looks like she's able to be like jerk.
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But the waitress was kind of offended that I would challenge their assertion on their menu. And
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in her reaction actually got me thinking about this like, okay, who did vote? I'm sure there was
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legit. She didn't have an answer. She didn't have an answer. And so if you're going to make that
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kind of claim, it's not just a matter of backing it up. It's like, okay, the word best and better,
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those words are very subjective. They're at the mercy of the person reading the copy and whether or not
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they have any sense of what the criteria was to determine whether you were better or best,
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than competitor B. And the reason why those words are not great to use it from a marketing sense
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is that when you correlate that to or when you compare that to using the word only where the only
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lender that can do XYZ, that is a definitive statement. That is a factual statement. That is
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is it's devoid of all emotion. It's devoid of preferences or subjectivity. It is an objective
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statement that says you are the only one who can solve XYZ problem. Better bail it back it up.
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You better be able to, yeah, if you're going to make that claim, you better be able to back it up.
16:54
Hey, are you tired of cold calling realtors and feeling like you're getting nowhere with my
16:58
agent classes? You don't have to chase agents anymore. We hand you a done-for-you system of ready-to-teach
17:04
presentations, plug-and-play marketing, and even 200 producing agents to invite so you can
17:09
double your agent referrals in 90 days or less. Plus, you'll get weekly coaching and a community of
17:14
loan officers sharing exactly what's working right now. Here's a quick win from one of our members.
17:20
I joined it because I was tired of doing business the way that regular loan officers have been
17:24
doing in my market, which is just making the the core calls every Monday and Friday, checking
17:29
with real estate agents. I had done that for years and seemed like everybody was doing that. I need
17:34
something different and I wanted to find a way that I could work with the agents that I want to work
17:39
with. I wanted to find a way that I could have a captive audience every month, every couple weeks
17:44
where I could find agents that were like-minded and that wanted to work with me as well. So it's
17:48
probably brought in, I'm just guessing here, but it's probably brought on in the three years I've
17:52
been back with the program. It's probably brought on. I'd probably say about $40 million in volume
17:58
since then, right? And it's led us some massive relationships and I wouldn't be able to do those
18:03
things without this program. The value of these Friday calls are so incredibly valuable for all
18:10
of us. I get upset if I miss it on a Friday. The cost of this program is worth it just because
18:16
of these Friday calls that were on where we help coach each other. We're just here to help
18:20
each other add value to our real estate partners. Are you ready to stop chasing and start attracting
18:24
agent referrals on demand? Book a call at mortgagemarketing.pro or hit the link in the show notes.
18:30
Now back to our shop. What do you believe is the role of marketing?
18:37
You said this was a 40-minute podcast. There are any number of ways that I can answer
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a question. I'll answer it succinctly as I can by saying that the role of marketing
18:51
is effectively to inform consumers on the problems that you solve. There's an old adage about
18:59
the difference between marketing and advertising. In my opinion, advertising is a subset of marketing.
19:06
They're not necessarily synonyms. I compared it to a summary conversation several years ago with
19:17
the CEO of a mortgage company. I said advertising is like underwriting department. Marketing is
19:25
the whole company. It's just that subset within a broader scope. Marketing is your means of
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putting out your message of why you exist and what exactly it is that you do on a database.
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How do you solve your clients problems? Advertising is communicating to people who don't necessarily
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know you yet. I'm going a little off tangent. Do you think marketing's role is to generate
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business? What's defined business? Inquiries? That could be applications making the phone ring,
20:04
filling out forms. Is that part of marketing's role? Absolutely. They do that through
20:08
obviously various means of content or whatnot. It's how you measure those results. That will
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where you start to get into all the different nuances of marketing. How do you think you should
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measure results to determine is marketing effective? As you've heard, doing its job. It's going to
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depend on which priorities are. We need to grow volume. We need to grow leads. There's very,
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broad term leads, but there's ways to measure that. You want to see a marketer break out and
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hives you utter the phrase marketing attribution because as a marketing director, I could potentially
20:48
put out 48 different pieces of content that all get seen by one single consumer. It's that 49th
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piece of content that they see just the right time where they say, I need to call that guy with
21:01
a thrife or I need to call that guy with ABC lending. I've seen his stuff all over the place.
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Which piece of content do you attribute that transaction to? The first one, the seventh one,
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the 49th one? All of them. It's one of those things where it is, I'd say, I like this because
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I don't want to say indecisiveness, but this is amorphous entity that is marketing that drives
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C-suite executives just crazy is that it is very, very challenging to pinpoint a single connection
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point to the end transaction. I mean, unless you are measuring click-through rates
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on and actively, and you've got this laundry list of all these different
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key performance indicators or KPIs that you are tracking on a regular basis that empirically
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this person became a client because of X initiative. Yeah, it's never challenging.
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It's rare that it's one thing. Yeah, especially in the marketing or online world. It really is
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equal parts art and science. Let's pivot here a little bit if you don't mind. Let's get a little
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juicy here. What do you see as the evolution, so hang with me for this question. All right.
22:19
The evolution of personal branding in an AI era, and maybe I should have started with do you
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think having a personal brand that's mostly loan officers are listening? Let me back up.
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We're building this as we're flying here. Okay. Do you think marketing executives should embrace
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loan officers establishing personal brands? That is a loaded question.
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Sure. There is. It's getting hot in here. Yeah, a little bit.
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Shorting us to that question is, yes, absolutely. Okay. Longer answer to that question is,
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we need to define what a person will be doing. You're like, hold on, time out. Let's have a meeting.
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This is a conversation that I've had not ad nauseam, I'll say ad infinitum. If I could use some
23:06
Latin, but it is something that I have had extensive conversations with people about. Part of
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the problem is this. There are a lot of, we already mentioned there's a lot of great coaches in
23:17
the industry, and just about every single one of them is coaching. You need to build a personal
23:23
brand. Here's the problem with that. It's not necessarily that those coaches are inherently wrong
23:29
on the based on the face of that statement. The words that come out of their mouth are true.
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The issue that I have as a marketer and as a former marketing director is the inference
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that is drawn from the people in the audience listening. They see, I need to build a personal brand.
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There we go. I need a new logo. I need a new color scheme. I need my brand guidebook.
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Some of the feedback you've heard from the field when they know, and that's what's frustrating
24:01
is because that's what they're thinking, but that's not really at the forefront of what the initial
24:08
request is. Okay, so let me give you my filter on that. These coaches, whoever, I mean myself as well,
24:14
right? Obviously, they'll believe in as you do building a personal brand. I know that comes with
24:18
certain considerations when you're working for a company. It's kind of like, you know, when you're
24:21
an athlete for the NFL, they are your employer, and there are certain things you're allowed to do and
24:25
not do, right? And you can have a quote, personal brand like many athletes do on Twitter or whatever
24:32
else, right? I agree with you. Yeah, exactly. But for me, I think, at least this is what I see how I see
24:37
personal brand show up in the field from L.O.s is, as you know, is content. It's like they want to
24:43
control the funnel, right? They want to be the source of generating. They don't want to rely.
24:48
It'd be nice if marketing did its job. Let's just face it, depending on the company that they're at,
24:52
it may or may not be doing a good job. They'd be more leads, more business, whatever. So they got
24:56
all the choices by leads, all that stuff, realtors or and or. I can create my own content. I can put
25:02
up a video and YouTube and all this kind of stuff and I can build a personal brand and attract people
25:06
to me. Where is internally for marketing executives, yourself or others you've interacted with? Where's
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the friction point with that? I think most of the heartburn that is generated on the marketing director's
25:18
side is stems from when someone kind of goes off the reservation or goes outside. What would be
25:29
an example of off the reservation? It turned not pin the right disclaimers. I mean,
25:34
in Resba Tilla, those are very real things that we have to adhere to and it is as a legal
25:41
consideration. There's legal considerations, there are compliance concerns. There are certain
25:46
things that have to be displayed on every social media graphic. I mean, there's all these different
25:50
little hoops that we go through where some marketing directors will miss it is that a lot of it
25:58
is just education. Tell them. I mean, be very clear. You're in the unless you used to go here.
26:04
You need to make sure you're using the right equal housing opportunity logo or equal housing
26:08
lender if you had a positive. Whatever the situation, educate them on what those parameters are.
26:15
But also understand that you need to relinquish perhaps a little bit of the creative
26:22
control for those who have demonstrated that they can handle it. There are numerous examples
26:28
where an L.O. thought that they had some design chops and completely butchered
26:36
like an existing template and added some kind of font that just took things completely off
26:41
off branch. So there is a design element to this. But I think one of the biggest concerns that a
26:46
lot of mortgage companies have is just this because in that panel, I'm consuming too far
26:52
the other direction and you get too compliant. You get too rigid in your application of what you
26:58
allow your teams to do. I'll give you two examples. Back to the whole conversation of building
27:05
a personal brand. Building a personal brand has absolutely, in my opinion, has absolutely nothing
27:09
to do with the logo that you use, the team name that you use, the font that you use has nothing to
27:15
do with that. You actually already have a personal brand. Whether you realize it or not and you
27:20
have less control of it than you might think. Your consumers, your clients that you work with,
27:24
the realtor partners that you work with, they are the ones who are defined that because your
27:28
personal brand is basically just your reputation. That's a simple way of putting it. It is
27:33
the impression people have of what it's like to work with you or to sit opposite from you in
27:38
the chair. That's your personal brand. The quicker that people get to that understanding, the
27:45
easier the conversation becomes from that point on. Because I had a top-producing loan officer,
27:51
came and saw me several years ago, she called me up, said, I'm going to be in town. I want to
27:56
see if I can get two hours on your calendar. I would love your help in developing a new personal
28:01
brand. The question in Crete now, I said, great, let's have that conversation. She came in and we
28:06
sat down and talked, I said, okay, what's your idea? What do you want to do? She said, I want to be
28:11
known as the loan surgeon. I said, okay, why? And she said, well, that's how all my realtors
28:18
refer to me, is as the loan surgeon. She went on and on. I'll let her go for about 40 minutes.
28:22
I asked a couple of clarifying questions here and there. And I said, okay, let me go to the end
28:27
of, I was like, all right, she's done building the case. And I was like, I'm going to have to be
28:31
very gentle and have our frame this. I said, okay, let me ask you a question. In every headshot
28:37
that you do, for the rest of your career, every piece of content you produce, every video that
28:41
you appear in, are you willing to be featured wearing a lab coat, a stethoscope around your neck
28:49
and one of those lower reflector do-hickies that old doctors used to wear? And she looked to me
28:53
like I was nuts. I was like, and she said, well, no. I said, then the loan surgeon won't work for you.
29:00
And she said, well, why not? I said, because that's what people expect to see. If you're going to
29:05
have the word surgeon incorporated, you need to look like a surgeon. And so we kept on, I said,
29:10
and I could tell she was a little crestfallen because she had put a lot of a lot of thought,
29:14
which I think is great. But it was just a little misguided. And so we course corrected. And I said,
29:20
OK, let's spend the next hour. And let's come up with something even better. I said, what's your
29:26
area special, speciality? And she was known as the FHA or FHA 203K team, the rehab loan. She was,
29:35
as a care bee, 203K or 203K. Oh, 203K, yeah. Okay. All right. I had to write the first.
29:42
Yeah. All right. I'm a marketing guy now. Yeah, exactly. But anyways, she, she was
29:46
acquainted with us as doing rehab loans and fixing flips. Yeah. And so we came up with a designation
29:52
that was far better for her, just an easier way for her to market herself into a kind of a niche
30:00
area that she wanted to be without being exclusionary. Right. Tell the loan programs. Right.
30:06
And so, and so we were able to go down a different track. So that's the kind of conversation that
30:12
loan officers, especially top-producing loan officers want to do. Another instance,
30:17
loan officer came to me saying, basically the same thing, except they knew what they wanted to be.
30:22
They said, I want to, I want to be known as the mortgage chick. I said, oh, fantastic. You
30:26
and 200 other people in your same market. And so it's one of the things where if you want to call
30:34
yourself a personal brand is not a nickname. Right. It's not what your buddies called you in college.
30:40
It's not some, some clever cutesy thing that rhymes just because you're a mom and you're in
30:44
mortgages does not mean that you have to go by the mortgage mom and everything you produce.
30:50
That's not a personal brand. That's, that's a slogan. That's a tax loan. It's, it's something,
30:56
if you want to use it great, but if you're expecting that it's going to get you from producing
31:01
two loans a month to doing, to qualifying for presence club, you're wrong. That's not what does
31:07
it? Then what does it give us a quick crash course on the difference between a slogan like you've
31:14
described and personal brand. You obviously mentioned it reputation. What others say about you,
31:18
but, but there's, there's a gap in between. There's the dotted line, right? I'm like, well,
31:23
I'm known for this or this is what have ever other people referred to me. So I think I have it
31:27
should have a slogan or a look that's relevant to that, but it's not. Am I making sense here?
31:35
So then how do I help me understand if I'm listening right now? If that's not a personal brand,
31:39
and I get it, it's what people say about me, but like, how do I control that? You know?
31:44
Well, Ash Shantbinozian, how he did it. Okay, I mean, let's riff on him for a second. What would
31:48
you say his personal brand is? I'd say his personal brand is, from, from my perspective, being an
31:54
insider on the mortgage industry, I'd say his personal brand is, is that he is one of the most
32:00
prolific systems guys that is, that is existed in our industry. I don't know, I've never been a
32:07
client of his so I can't speak intelligently on what the experience is like going through the
32:13
loan application process with him, but I can make assumptions based on the fact that that he's got,
32:18
he's got a large team. It's very well dialed in. It's very well orchestrated. And he does a great
32:22
job is number speak for itself. I'm going to see if I can pull up this definition of personal brand
32:26
that I love while you're talking. All right. It'll be a moment here, but okay. But I think,
32:29
do you think it's a little bit nebulous? This whole idea of a personal brand, meaning how do I,
32:37
like, like, concretely, like, Amazon? What's Amazon's personal brand? Efficiency, speed, convenience.
32:45
Yeah, I would say it's, it's all three of those things, but more, more than anything, I'd say it's
32:49
convenience. Okay. All right. So, and I'm trying to come up with the real world, world examples,
32:53
we'll create a parallel here in a moment. Sure. But I think there's, there's a lot of
32:57
those that are stuck in that place of personal brand because I'm putting content out and back to
33:03
that. I'm putting content out. So I'm developing my personal brand because I'm putting content out.
33:09
Okay. I mean, you are because you're sending messaging. You're sending, right? You're putting
33:14
yourself out there in a way and people are making a judgment or an ascertaination about you
33:18
based on the content that you're putting out there, right? So that's part of what goes in
33:23
but can you, so back to this, this, this scale is example of the 203K expert. Did she have a,
33:29
like, a tagline, like a fixed and flipped specialist or something like that? Or mortgage
33:34
fixture, a fixture rapper was kind of, because the one of the things that she said to me in that
33:41
meeting that really stuck out was the fact that she was the, she was the person that all of her
33:47
realtors would bring the deals that were hard to do. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And tough deals. Yeah.
33:53
And because she was a former underwriter. Oh, okay. For like 10, 15 years before she became a
33:57
loan officer. And so there was nobody, no other loan officer that I knew of who knew guidelines
34:03
forwards and backwards the way that she did. She, like, underwriters did not like getting,
34:09
getting phone calls from her because they knew that she was going to be right about whatever
34:13
it was as she was talking about. She knew that, because she knew the guidelines worse than
34:17
that. Well, I mean, she, and she, I mean, she wouldn't petty about it or anything, but they,
34:22
they just knew that she had a reputation of somebody who was going to submit some of the cleanest
34:26
files you've ever seen in your life. That's awesome. And so, and so she, she kind of had that
34:31
moniker of the mortgage fixture rapper. And so, and it was, and it worked brilliantly for her.
34:36
Okay. So then she became, she took that messaging, the mortgage fixture upper, she became known for
34:43
working the difficult deals. And were she okay with that? And that was one thing I cautioned her
34:48
about. I said, if we go this direction, then that's what you're getting. You, you might run into
34:53
situations where you get nothing but crap deals. And she kind of shrugged. I was like, I'm, I'm
34:58
pretty proficient at knocking them out. Okay. And being able to, as long as she's good with it.
35:03
Yeah. And, and so, yeah, that's, that's a decision that she had to make about it. Well,
35:07
so it's, it really comes down to, I mean, the whole realm of personal branding, I think just,
35:14
the waters have gotten so muddied because there's been, there's been so much conflicting
35:22
advice. Yeah. And even as, and I am just as guilty of the, how pervasive it became.
35:30
Yeah, because we got to the point where it was easier, it was easier to just acquiesce and to say,
35:38
okay, here's your fancy new logo. Then it was to have a, have a, a discussion, a substantive
35:45
discussion about what this really means. And what you are truly asking for. And it's one of this,
35:51
I mean, it's honestly, it felt like, you know, the episode that every parent goes through when
35:59
their little toddler is reaching for the hot stove and they, and they keep saying, no.
36:06
But the toddler keeps wanting to do it and keeps wanting to do it. Eventually, I mean, that's
36:10
an extreme example, but there are certain situations where eventually you kind of have to look at
36:14
and say, okay, that will be done and let them make them mistakes. So I wasn't able to pull it up,
36:19
but the my recollection of the definition, and this comes from Caleb Ralston, you know,
36:23
who he is. Yeah. Yeah. Love his videos. Yeah. So he articulated a personal brand is the intentional
36:31
pairing of, I forget exactly what he said, but the intentional pairing of like ideas,
36:38
you know, emotions or thoughts or whatever, and the continual repetition of that over time,
36:42
so that when people then, then they just, it just happens, right? So it's intentional pairing.
36:46
Back to like the fix and that's a great definition. The fix and flip gal. So she has intentionally
36:52
paired that. So this is by the way for anybody listening. We're going a little bit deep here,
36:56
but there's a there's a lesson here is if you're showing up creating content, if you're putting
37:01
messaging out there repetitively, what people are starting to create an attachment to your marketing
37:09
messaging, your communication that's going out there and things like that. So I'm sure you would
37:13
advise or confirm, be aware of what it is that you're intentionally putting out. Oh,
37:20
maybe they're lacking intention, but whatever the pairing is that's happening, it's going on,
37:24
right now. And that's becoming your personal brand. So people need to be pretty cognizant of that,
37:30
don't they? Yeah, absolutely. And I would also, I would also throw in one other caveat in that it
37:37
also has to be something that where there is a deep personal connection within yourself towards
37:43
towards that message because I mean, people will see through it like we can see through that glass
37:49
window right there. If it's if it's not genuine and if it's not if it doesn't truly line up with who
37:55
you are as an individual and who you are as a professional, then it's going to become exhausting
38:01
both for you, but also it's it's going to that transparency is going to reveal it to not be true.
38:08
I guess that's why so many people I know when I was originating early or in the early days,
38:13
you know, I leaned into the first time home buyer thing, right? Because most people can relate
38:17
to that meaning we've all been a first time home buyer. Of course, a lot of originators at some
38:21
point. So so you can you have an affinity to that. Let's pivot a little bit again because we
38:26
could go all day on personal brand. Oh, yeah, we could. All right, let's just get real.
38:31
Back to what I opened up with about personal branding, the revolution of personal branding and AI,
38:36
this is why I wanted to get back to is what do you think is hype versus real with the intersection
38:46
of AI like where do you see that going? You can talk about your take on actually let me riff for
38:55
a second if you don't mind. Okay. So I was actually taking notes before today. I saw an article
38:59
that was that was talking about AI stars, a Hollywood AI stars and that there's this influencer,
39:07
if you will, this actress who's completely AI her name is Tilly. She has 63,000 followers on
39:13
Instagram and she's already getting inquiries from real Hollywood agents to be featured in
39:22
film and other types of things like that. And so the the concept is synthetic talent.
39:29
Okay. So where do you think you're seeing? I know you're seeing this bubble up. You're watching
39:33
people the whole hey Jen and the avatars and what's your give me your riff on that for a little
39:39
bit on where do you think that is going to fall in or not? Oh, there is a deep rooted part of me that
39:48
hopes that it backfires. So it's extraordinary spectacularly on whoever tries to bring that into
39:56
the mortgage. Is there a place for it though? No, because in my opinion, the in the mortgage industry,
40:06
there is zero place for deception. Is it deception? I mean, let's just let's take it contextual.
40:12
It's on how you frame it. Right. Because I think contextually, I mean, who knows? This is also
40:17
new. We don't know, right? I mean, five years from now, just like we thought like holding your phone
40:21
in front of your face and recording video like, oh, yeah, who's going to do that? Right?
40:27
But I mean, people used to the reject electricity, you know what I mean? When they
40:32
stay wanted to stay with gas lamps. So I don't know where this is going to go, but I do think
40:37
I'm open to the possibility that there's a place for AI generated content that's an avatar of you.
40:44
I think it's very contextual. Last little story. Somebody shared with me the other day, there's a
40:50
realtor on YouTube who for the last three months has done 100% exclusive AI avatars of his or her
40:56
content and his view counts and everything are up and all the metrics by which you would measure
41:02
that. I'm not saying that that's per se billing trust, but let's narrow the focus for a little bit.
41:08
Would there be a place in your world for context? Some place in that funnel early stage for that
41:16
AR avatar avatar engagement.
41:21
With some with some caveats. Yes. I would say if
41:26
if you were disclosing upfront to the to the client. Yep. Like let's talk voice. Yeah.
41:32
Voice is really really big right now. Yeah. Voice. It takes all of three seconds for that bot
41:40
to make the disclaimer. Oh, Mr. Ziffer. I'm James. I'm an AI chat bot and you and I are going to
41:47
engage in a conversation. If you would like to continue using my services. Press one or say,
41:53
okay, right. As long as the consumer is informed that that that is what's going on. I don't have
42:01
a problem with it. It's when you're trying to disguise it and say, yes, I'm a real human when it's
42:08
an AI persona that has been generated based off of some database of all these different prompts or
42:15
different phone tree discussions. Then I'm sorry. I just I have problem. I don't disagree with you.
42:23
I'm just thinking about the use case you gave there and move it to video where if it's your the AI
42:27
avatar version of you and it's just like, hey, what's up? You know, this is Jeff's AI avatar.
42:32
You know, you're talking to me if you'd rather talk to Jeff, whatever, right? Press one or
42:36
you know, all that fun stuff. But I think the disclosure upfront makes sense. It just makes me
42:40
curious down the road because you know how so right now LOs have YouTube videos where it's the same
42:47
FAQs they get, right? So she's like, hey, go watch the video about what about this? What about that?
42:51
What about that? What about that? Right? It's just them pre-recorded or bomb bomb videos. I think
42:54
there's a place for that where so the library have go watch my educational, you know,
42:58
classroom about all the different steps of getting alone, et cetera, et cetera. And why not just
43:04
streamline that with AI avatars? Do you think that's appropriate? Yeah, because that changes
43:10
things. That's for the purposes of me as a consumer. I'm just trying to articulate, you've presented
43:16
it now based on that description. You presented it now in video format rather than in an essay.
43:21
Yeah. I mean, I could go to, I could easily just go to a blog that was 100% generated by AI. Yeah.
43:27
And read through it, grab the information that I need. Sure. And make my own decision whether or
43:34
not I want to believe the validity of the data that you just shared with me in word form,
43:42
supposed to video form. Okay. So I get your take away is there's a small window of context for
43:50
you where that will work. Can clearly do not trying to see the customer. I think everyone would
43:54
agree with that. Oh, no. So be transparent. But let's get back to let's keep let's pull on the
44:00
thread a little bit more. So you have the floor to riff for a little bit on how are you using AI?
44:06
What's your yeah, where do you see that intersecting? And let's go back to the marketing executives
44:11
who you serve. Are you having conversations with them about that? Yeah, yeah. And I would not be
44:18
able to do what I'm doing the way I'm doing it right now without without the assistance of AI.
44:26
AI to me is one of the most knowledgeable. I'm going to use I won't say intelligent. But it is
44:32
one of the most knowledgeable research assistants that I've ever been able to find outside of a
44:39
human research. Right. That's crazy. And because there are there's a there's a lot of things in
44:43
the analysis and the the strategic talks that I have with clients. There's a lot of research
44:50
that goes into it. Now they're kind of research that I'm doing. It would take me
44:56
usually two weeks to to go through all of the different resources that that I want to look at
45:02
and do all of the scrubbing and do all the vetting and and do all of the the online stocking of
45:08
their entire digital footprint. It would take me weeks to to do all of that myself or to even
45:13
to hire somebody to do it part time on an hourly basis. Now I've got agents that I've built into
45:21
chat to be team for flexing claw to do in a minute. And so I don't that kind of a use case
45:28
is not I don't believe is doping anybody that is no that's a great assistance is the specific reason
45:36
why AI is so useful to me. And then I take the results of those problems and then I assimilate
45:45
the most important components into what my recommendation is going to be to that company.
45:51
Okay. What are you what are you having at research that makes me curious as a fellow marketing buff?
45:56
Well a lot of it is doing just doing the scrubbing of the entire scope of a digital footprint.
46:03
So because I can I can go to a company and say all right what's your primary URL.
46:08
Oh okay you act as a consumer and yeah. And so I basically just go and and find ever do as much
46:14
digging as I can as big a breadth of research as I can in terms of your entire digital footprint
46:21
because with a lot of companies they've probably had multiple different iterations of their website
46:25
right there might be certain subdomains or certain extensions that they completely forgot about
46:30
because they either weren't and didn't show up on an index map or or or a side map.
46:35
And so they just lost track of it but it's still out there because it's on some other server
46:39
that they thought got shut down but it really didn't. And so it just go that that kind of a search
46:43
knows to go and find all of those digital presences or presence presences. Digital assets will
46:51
call it that exist and that helps me kind of assimilate that and to find anything that's like a red
46:56
flag is like oh you need to take care of this go find where it is shut down or to take from a
47:02
different perspective be able to look at it kind of lift up the hood and see how that site is
47:09
performing so I can get a sense of this is probably where you rank without going into a drafts
47:14
or SEM rush or any of those other analytic tools. I can get a good sense of this is where all your
47:20
pages are ranking for SEO but one step further now with geo a generative and general optimization
47:28
this is how how good a chance you stand at being cited by LLMs and if a consumer is doing
47:35
doing their search. So you're helping mortgage companies marketing executives leverage GEO to
47:42
hopefully get found in some of this AI search. Absolutely because that is that is I mean I was I was
47:50
on a webinar earlier this the future proof webinar that's hosted by Melissa Langdale and Megan handy
48:00
and I were having a conversation over AI in the future of marketing and one of the things that I
48:06
said then was that Google was very nervous about what was happening in the transition of people
48:11
moving away from using search engines like Google and moving over to GBC and perplexity and all
48:18
these other LLMs for conducting similar searches and just the whole reasons for doing it on that
48:24
webinar this is back in like May when I was on and at the time I said Google's got about 12 to 18
48:30
months before they really hit a critical point of needing to do something I was way off on my
48:35
estimate it was closer to three months and and and Google to their credit they have they have
48:42
they've stepped it up with Gemini and they're don't know that the announcement has been made but
48:47
very soon they're going to be announcing an AI first search platform to replace the traditional
48:53
search platform that everybody knows also they're great head to head against perplexity for
48:57
example yep go ahead and have that perplexity launches own browser yeah I was using that the other day
49:02
comment yep it's interesting it's it's really fascinating seeing how people are it what's what
49:08
what I think is the coolest about about what AI is doing is is it's democratizing the whole
49:15
the whole search game so now those the rockets of the world the zillas of the world the those
49:21
companies with big deep pockets have almost overnight I don't want to say completely I mean
49:28
they're it's not like their market sure it's going to drop to zero tomorrow but but almost overnight
49:34
they have lost a massive competitive advantage over the little guy over the midsize I have to be
49:41
over the over the independent broker that that's in the local market the local the AI is is going
49:49
to benefit local established retail and brokerage shops so much if they if they learn how to leverage
49:58
it the right way in terms of putting out the kind of authoritative content that LLM's reward
50:04
when conducting their searches because when when you put them when you type in a prompt into
50:10
chat gbt let's say chat gbt isn't just looking at the words that you that you typed in have for your
50:17
question it's making it's smart enough and I'll go ahead and say intelligent enough to make
50:23
inferences based on context clues of how you type and and also taking into account the history
50:30
of past threats that you that you've generated so it's it's conducting what some people refer to
50:36
as fan out queries so one single prompt could result in up to 50 75 100 independent searches
50:45
all done in real time all done instantaneously and deliver the results as quickly as you see that
50:51
little thinking icon come up or text come up and then there goes your response so it just depends
50:57
on the depth of the prompt itself yeah but it's using those and this is what as a as a former
51:03
institution I found fascinating when I kind of discovered that's what it was doing was the whole
51:09
concept of using context clues because I somehow used to teach was reading comprehension was not
51:16
that challenging if you if you knew the tricks and context clues was one of the first things that
51:20
I would teach my students what to look for like tone of voice and imagery and and all the different
51:27
symbolism all the different literary devices that that writers especially Greg writers would use
51:32
to tell a story elements of I've been trained to do the exact same thing interesting um all right so
51:39
let's close it out on this you referenced something there a moment ago about geo and you said that
51:43
you think AI uh in that context benefits the smaller player versus the big 800 pound gorillas um
51:52
can you ride us into the sunset on on specifically how somebody listening right now could be
51:58
loan officer could be marketing executive biz dev person how do they because because there's the
52:04
window right so so what were the what would be the action items for them to do through the rest of
52:09
this year to get on that bandwagon of getting found in AI search um first of all if anyone comes to
52:18
you saying I promise to get you cited on AI people promising that oh absolutely really yes but if
52:25
anybody promises you that say we can get you cited on chat to be two searches hold onto your wallet
52:30
and don't believe them because this is it's one of those one of those things where the technology
52:36
is sober and new and so um it i mean every day right it is evolving and something is changing there
52:44
a new model is is dropping of chat gpt like um by i remember playing around with five with chat gpt
52:52
five when it first came out and there it was immediately by the response was immediately
52:57
bivircated in the people who absolutely loved it so oh my god this is revolutionary it's all these
53:02
things as other campus like holy crap the whole sessions everyone's they were on four right
53:07
and it's and so you just there's a mix back this is a process that is going to take time to evolve
53:13
i mean google didn't get to where it got overnight a ggeo or a i search or whatever academic you
53:20
want to attribute to it's not going to get to where it's going to go overnight it is changing
53:25
very very quickly um and i conducted some pretty deep analysis about a month ago
53:32
and came back to because i wanted to revisit it and came back to it again and the results were
53:39
drastically different really in terms of what it served up in terms of where it served up in terms
53:44
of trust because what i did a couple of months ago was i wanted to i was just conducting experiments
53:49
so i built a custom gpt to do to do to take 20 different consumer based prompts specifically
54:02
targeting like mortgage industry at all with the with the end result of wanting to find a local
54:07
mortgage expert to help me in x market so i had 20 different queries all phrased very very
54:15
differently and i had this list had that built into a spreadsheet had another column that
54:21
listed out the top 200 metropolitan areas and so what i was a built this this custom gpt to basically
54:28
take each question and extrapolate it across each of the 200 metropolitan areas and give me the
54:34
results so i mean i mean you multiply all that together i think it was a total like 25 000 different
54:39
independent searches yeah we're we're run and then fortunately because i did not want to take
54:45
the time to scrub all of those responses i said okay here's the responses and loaded that up
54:51
and said okay now scrub this and tell me what are the top 10 citations that that came up in all
54:58
these responses and the results in the first one were unexpected and there were a couple of
55:04
familiar names that that i recognized in there at experience.com was one that that i was kind of
55:09
impressed to that it showed up as much yeah and then the second result of names was completely
55:15
different listed of of of websites of who are else yeah and i was like that's fascinating like okay
55:20
so and so now my next iteration is so okay back in june or july you gave me this in august you
55:27
gave me this yep um why was it different and so that's one of the things that i really really
55:33
love doing it is when i run an experiment like that i always cap it off by saying okay why give me
55:41
did it did it tell you why the different references yes and it's uh that asking well asking not
55:46
on that i haven't done yeah but with other projects that i've run when i ask it why what was
55:52
your reasoning behind this what was your thinking behind this and there are some miles where you can
55:57
actually open up that sidebar and watch in real time right as it's going through its as process
56:02
and but i wanted to know the logic i wanted to know what what was how did it come to this decision
56:07
what was the what was the stream of color to the train of thought yeah that it was following
56:12
and i've learned more about how llm's work just by doing that just by asking that question of
56:18
the interesting leave me to point a to point from point to point you can have that on going yeah
56:21
i found the same thing to be true as well uh because i've been teaching classes to realtors uh on
56:26
geo in conjunction with loan officers and um that's one of the things that i recently did as well
56:32
and it's it's very interesting to see it's read it in some cases it's fast experts it's these
56:37
review aggregator sites which is a lot of what i've seen it it served back in terms of the generic
56:43
type a find a realtor i want to buy a house in whatever you know what i mean all those types of
56:48
things it's it's first and foremost looking at a lot of those those review aggregator sites and
56:53
then of course the content as it you know although is it is it is it is it listicle structured
56:57
whatever easy to read and that's a whole nother skill by the way which i'm sure you help market
57:01
executives understand is what format what types of content is the uh looking for yeah which is
57:08
very important right yes yes the actual straight yeah i'd never actually answered your question what
57:14
should they be doing yeah that is exactly that's what they need to be focused on because if you're
57:19
using a i to write a whole bunch of blog articles you're missing the point uh if it's a ii does not
57:28
believe in fluff and it will uh and and and a lot of the the results that generate their generate
57:36
from the prompts are because the prompts are bad or because the prompts are asking the wrong
57:40
questions i'm more interested in asking the right questions right more so than i am getting
57:45
yeah correct answers oh because when you when you're asking the right questions that's what's
57:50
going to lead to better results right so if you've got the right prompts in there that are structured
57:54
the right way i want you to include a bcd i want you to to build in the the meta description so
58:00
once you build out all the schema and then here's the content and then give me and and then the FAQ
58:06
section so what they are what lm's are rewarding is the the rotated nature of the content and
58:12
is it uh is it is it is it valid data based on the query that or the prompt that was that was
58:22
input well that's a whole lot of the skill set that marketing executives uh if that's who's
58:26
listening right here and they're in their company they've got their different data you know
58:29
they're they're their content sources of blogs and etc and websites and even that content
58:34
needs to be looked at yeah in terms of how is it currently formatted yeah absolutely and if you
58:39
are an executive listening right now and you recently or even not so recently fired your copywriter
58:45
and they were a very skilled copywriter you need to give strong consideration to hiring them back
58:50
because they understand innately how language works and how and how to structure things in a very
58:57
specific manner not to be formulaic but to but because it's going to meet the criteria of what
59:04
lm's are looking for and if you are a copywriter or PR or comms you're you're in a really good spot
59:13
and you need to die I thought yeah I was gonna wipe out all the copywriters because no no that's
59:20
a whole that's another podcast that's another episode all right James this has been awesome glad we
59:25
could do it in person for those who are listening and want to learn more about what you do
59:29
we're going to link up number one your LinkedIn profile yeah right which is probably a great
59:32
place to follow but also the website give us the name once again Kyloom advisors C-A-E-L-U-M
59:39
advisors this spelled E-R-S E-R-S all right we'll put those two links in the show notes
59:43
appreciate your being here everybody listening by the way if you're listening to this you're
59:47
a loan officer and you're at a company and you want to get this interview over to somebody
59:51
internally biz dev marketing somebody who needs to hear this from a guy who's been in the trenches
59:56
and it's helping people do it now with marketing executives please share this episode with them and
1:00:00
get them in a conversation with James once again thanks for making time Jeff has been awesome
1:00:04
for sure for me all right let's do your to do like the episode share it we'll see on the next one
1:00:09
bye for now okay that's it for today's episode before we wrap up I just wanted to remind you about
1:00:14
my agent classes you're proven system to double your agent referrals in just 90 days imagine never
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having to co-call again instead building real lasting relationships with top-producing agents
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it's all designed to make growing your business easier and fun so if you're ready to take control
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of your agent referrals and grow your income visit mortgagemarketing.pro or check the link in
1:00:42
the show notes and why you're there don't forget to check out the success stories from other mortgage
1:00:45
pros who've already seen incredible results thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next