Latest / The Kink Consultant / Behind The Scenes of A Non-Monogamouse Relationship (And Why It Actually Works)

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Behind The Scenes of A Non-Monogamouse Relationship (And Why It Actually Works) · The Kink Consultant

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It's the King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
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on all things kink and dating, relationships and pop culture.
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So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
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to it. Welcome, everyone, to this
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week's episode of The King Consultant.
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I have Samia Mouse here and I had the pleasure of being on her
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podcast, Closet Ed earlier this Oh wait, late last year.
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Very late. Here now.
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What year is it? What day is it?
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What time is it? Where are we?
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Who am I? Talk all of the things, but it
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just feels like yesterday in the intro call we I think hit it off
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of like can I be on your podcast and I was like, now I need Samia
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on my podcast. So welcome.
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Thank you so much for joining. It is an honor to have you and
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just to give a little props to your podcast.
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I think we are aligned in our goal.
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We are me shame a fine kink sex lives, things that are
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considered quote and put alternative lifestyles.
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But the question becomes, how alternative are they really, if
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so many people are living them right now?
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Yep, Yep. Thank you so much for having me
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on. It is an honor to be here.
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And yes, we did hit it off in that first, like, introductory
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call. Like I wanted to stay on the
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phone with you all day. I'm deeply mad at the universe
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that we don't live in the same place.
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I'm living closer. To you.
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But yes, it is very inconvenient to not be.
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It's still far, but closer than I am now.
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All right, I'll make sure to get deets on that when we get off
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the line here. But yeah, we definitely have the
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same goals. De shamifying.
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I love that. But you get to talk to people
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who are quote UN quote normal. I love it.
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Like we know we can't define normal, but you would never
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think that they had the interest they have.
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You'd never know. It would be a huge shock to the
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vast majority of the people who think they know them if their
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identities were revealed. People would be like, no, that
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person, he goes to my church, yes.
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I know people who go to church, what the world would call
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upstanding citizens and they're still good partners.
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They're just also consensually non monogamous.
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They are kinky, they enjoy BDSM, both light and heavy BDSM.
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It all exists. We're just forced to put up this
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front of like, oh, I'm nothing like that.
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Right. What's normal is being closeted
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at this point. I think a loke had a viral clip
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going around recently where they were like, everyone's in the
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closet. Everybody is in the closet
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because in a homophobic, misogynistic, sex negative
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patriarchal culture, the closet includes like literally
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everybody except for maybe I don't know, Peter Thiel, you
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know, but but, but even. Charge of the company
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manufacturing the closet that people are hiding in because he.
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Literally, literally owns the closet.
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Probably is still in the closet too.
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I mean look at the Epstein files.
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Like this is a dark side of the closet.
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The side of the closet where people are exploiting and using
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and abusing children. But that part of the closet, the
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dark part, it gets propped up by the fact that everybody is in
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the closet. We equate all sex with darkness,
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and that allows the worst darkness to proliferate because
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we keep it all in the dark. Like, I have a lot of thoughts
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on this. I know, I'm sorry.
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I just went straight to the Epstein files.
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I'm so sorry. I just realized though when you
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hear about how much people are hiding like I sometimes have to
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remind myself that I am so open. Recently in one of my client
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sessions, he said how do I act normal going to a sex store?
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And I had to think about it because I'm so far on the other
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side of it that I have to remember to empathize of how
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hard it is. And you saying that it's like
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how many people walking around us are struggling, How many
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people listening to this podcast right now wish they could be
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more open about their desires and they can't.
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And it's not their fault society has taught them it's wrong.
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That upsets me so deeply. So I'm not only not only has
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society taught them it's wrong, society's taught them it's
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shameful and dirty and makes them a bad person.
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Who's going to hell? I know people who believed from
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a very young age into their adult years that hell existed
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and they were destined for it because they were sexually
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attracted to people of the same gender.
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Like eternal torture and punishment, if you really
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believe that is your fate is a terrifying fucking thing.
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Yeah, I am religious, but not to that extent of believing that.
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But it's really funny when you said that, I was like, oh, I
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constantly have to remind myself I'm not going to hell.
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And I was Catholic. We didn't really focus on the
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hell and eternal damnation part, but we did focus on how you
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should feel guilty all the time. All the time for everything.
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I do I carry that also, one of the things I kind of forgot or
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didn't pay attention mentioned to was the fact that America
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while people came here for religious freedom, the religious
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freedom they came for was puritanical culture and the
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English threw them out. They were like, you guys are nut
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jobs go to that country and that was how our foundation.
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So it's not a surprising thing when the entire last 200 and
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well it's 14192. I'm like literally like when did
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America start, but it built up from the ground up.
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It was about this puritanical culture and we.
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Still were in the 1600s. Thank you.
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And his egomaniacal crazy brain. That was 1492, yes.
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I had to start that. No, I knew it was.
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I was like, well, it couldn't have been before that.
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But yeah, the Pilgrims, the original sex negative prudes,
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were the 16 hydras, and I wonder how many of them were getting up
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to shenanigans. Because, you know, they were.
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Oh, they were definitely suppressing something.
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And I find that the angriest, loudest people are working the
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hardest to suppress something, and that's what you're seeing.
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I talked to enough people to have seen it.
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The person they present is not also the person that they feel
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deep inside. And the louder they are, the
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bigger the question. It's like that joke about people
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with big trucks or specific cars having like small Dicks.
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It's sort of funny, but then it's also like, no, they felt
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they had something to prove for some reason.
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Or they just like being in big trucks.
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I don't know, but there's something there.
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You know, it's selling how you drive the truck, I think.
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Great line. But yeah, it's human psychology.
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I mean, a basic tenet of human psychology is if a person gets
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really defensive and aggro about something that doesn't seem like
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it should make them that way, it's probably triggering
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something in them that they're ashamed of or that they want to
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not exist. So that's why you get the worst
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examples of public officials going after gay people.
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Almost all of them end up being outed as gay.
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Like, oh, you're trying to kill the thing in yourself that you
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think is shameful by taking down other people.
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And it really makes these people angry when they see other people
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living freely because that's what they wish they could have
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but feel they can't have. And that shouldn't be possible
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for anyone else if it's not possible for them.
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So it's just like, I'm miserable.
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I'm suppressing and you should too, God damn it.
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Yeah, and I'll make sure you do. That really does fall so much
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heavier on the side of sexuality.
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There's something about kink where it's definitely there,
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right? It's this shameful thing, but I
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don't feel people go after it as much because it's less public.
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So the very fact that kink is less public almost allows it to
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be safe from that scrutiny. I'm realizing this in real time
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because I was like, kink hasn't had its moment.
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But that also means kink is kept safer because it's not publicly
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being explored. By the way, I live in Las Vegas,
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a city where BDSM, the physical impact, side bruising and
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dungeon are not legal here. So I am somewhere where it's
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really not accepted. Still.
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We have sex clubs though. You can go to a sex club but God
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forbid you practice BDSM here. So I think part of it is kept
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safer because it's not so much in the public eye, but on the
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other end it's again shamed. So are you not allowed to sell
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floggers and handcuffs and sex shops in Vegas?
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Because I find that hard to believe.
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No, you, that's so funny. You are.
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You just can't own a legal dungeon here so you can have
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house parties and there is one within the last 20 years there
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was a public dungeon here that the city shut down.
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Wow. Meanwhile there are active sex
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clubs that you can go to any night of the week.
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Totally legal to run I. Wonder.
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Wonder why Do you know why? Have you researched this about
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Vegas? Because this blew my mind when
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you told me the first time. Yeah.
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No the only thing that like anyone ever said it truly there
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are groups trying to change the laws but it is a law here.
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I mean it's silly but I believe it that the idea is when the
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city started it was run by the mafia and sex is normal and good
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and OK, especially if it's like you're holding women to the
8:55
standard. But kink is weird and that's
8:58
fringe and it's not good for anyone to do.
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That's the only explanation I've heard so far that makes sense.
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And they're working to change the laws on it.
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As in, there are people advocating, but also there's not
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like a huge push because it's like, can't you guys just do
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your own thing in your own home? And where do you go from there?
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I mean, I know where you go from there.
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I know the arguments for it, but it's hard to push this agenda
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with people who don't care. Yeah, it.
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Seems like you're fine. You're not getting arrested for
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it. Just be good and stay at home
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and do it. That's how a lot of
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conversations about sex positivity get shut down by, you
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know, sort of mainstream people. It's like, why do you have to
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talk about it? Can't it just be private?
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Can't it just be something you do in your own home?
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Why do you have to splash it all around?
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And it's like, well, I mean, the straights when they get married,
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love to splash it all around. And you know, my father is
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deeply homophobic but considers himself a progressive liberal.
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And he'll say things like, why can't they just not shove it in
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people's faces? And I'm like, you mean like
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holding hands in public or kissing in public?
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Because straights do that all the time.
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And that's not a problem for you.
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It's like, what are you talking about?
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So this like, why can't you just be private about it?
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Why can't you just be decent? Why can't you just have decorum?
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I think it's all in bad faith. I.
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Would agree with that. I also have family members.
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Well, they would never call themselves liberal, but they're
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like, I liked the Clinton policy of don't ask, don't tell.
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And I'm like, Oh my gosh, story for another time on that one
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because it's like, OK, so you're fine with it as long as you're
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never faced with it and never have to know it exists.
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OK, right. And then it's like we fetishize
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romantic partnerships so much in this society.
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And it's such a topic of conversation if you want to
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build relationships with people to talk about your partnership
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or partnership. And so if you're cut off from
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that because the way you're having partnerships doesn't gel
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with what the one very narrow mainstream idea of what it
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should be is, that cuts off a huge part of you from forming
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relationships with other people. And that's part of the reason
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everyone's in the closet and people have an idea of normalcy
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that's not real, because people aren't being honest except with
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their very closest friends, and sometimes not even then.
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And then I pulled. We are fetishizing romantic
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relationship and romance in general.
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I was recently on this conversation on the podcast with
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Reena Martin, why people find it so hard to accept that you can
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be in multiple relationships at once because their idea is,
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well, romance looks one way. And it's impossible to do that
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with multiple people. And I will admit, what we hold
11:29
up and put on a pedestal as romance would be hard to do with
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five different people because you wouldn't have time for a job
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like your life and romantic life and love.
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You can be loved and loved in so many different ways that it
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doesn't need and to be what society holds up.
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But all of that to say, I want to hear about your relationship
11:49
and where you fall on this spectrum that we're discussing.
11:53
Are you craving deeper intimacy and the freedom to explore your
11:56
desires without shame? Do you feel nervous bringing
11:59
kink up with your partner? Or maybe you're curious to start
12:02
but don't know where to begin? That's exactly where coaching
12:04
comes in, and I've helped countless couples and
12:07
individuals navigate kink in their lives and relationships.
12:10
Book your console today at amandadames.com and let's make
12:13
your desires feel doable. OK, I'm polyamorous.
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I discovered that I was polyamorous many, many years ago
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when I found myself hopelessly in love with somebody who lived
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very far away from me and not willing to put my life on hold
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while they got their shit together to be closer and not
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willing to do like a crazy long distance relationship.
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And I don't think he was at the time either.
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So we were like, OK, we've got this connection that's
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undeniable, but can't pursue it moving on.
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And I was in my mid 20s at the time that this became a thing.
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So I moved on. I had a couple of relationships
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with people that I was very, very in love with and committed
12:56
to. And my feelings for this other
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person who was far away never went away.
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And that blew my mind wide open. So previously to this, I had
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been a card carrying subscriber to the Monogamous paradigm.
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I was like. Never thought, Oh yeah, I could
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love more than one person. I was like, will I ever be lucky
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enough to find one person to love me?
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You know, like I had ugly dumpling syndrome.
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I was a late bloomer. My high school and early adult
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years were defined by unrequited crushes.
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So I really was like, I just want to find out when preaching
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that loves me. And I had this idea, I believe
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this common cultural myth that real romantic love is finite and
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limited to one person. And if it's not, then it's not
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real, you know? And even to this day my mom will
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say, but do you really love them?
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Do you really love that second partner you have?
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Do you? And I'm like, yes, yes.
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How many times I have to say yes.
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Like, why is it so hard for you to understand?
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Do you love me and my sister? Yes, I love both of them.
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It is possible. Yeah, But it's different.
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It's different. How is it different?
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It's not different. People have this idea that
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romantic love somehow is different and operates under
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different rules. And I really believe that.
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So when I found myself in the position of having, you know,
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two people that I was in love with at the same time and had
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that happen twice because I had these two different
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relationships back-to-back that both went on.
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One was like 2 1/2 years, the other was like a year and a
14:28
half. I was like, Oh my God, this is
14:30
blowing my mind. I am Jenny Garth in 90210
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choosing between Brandon and Luke and or Dylan.
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What was his name? Dylan was one of the hotties and
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then I think Dylan and Brandon, but.
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Dylan and Brandon. Luke Perry was the actor who
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played Dylan. You know, I'm her.
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And I remembered that stupid episode.
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It's so funny how media really forms our ideas of how reality
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should work. And I remember her having that
14:57
moment with the two of them. They're like standing on the
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street and she's like, I choose myself.
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And she walks away from both of them.
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And that's usually how these things go in media.
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You either choose one or you walk away from both.
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Matthew Perry, in his devastating, heartbreaking
15:12
memoir that he wrote the year before he died, talked about one
15:15
of the happiest points in his life being a moment where he was
15:18
dating two women and he had feelings for both of them, but
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he knew that couldn't continue, and he had to choose.
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And he ended up sabotaging both of them.
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And I read that, and I was like, Oh my God, why didn't he see the
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third door? He's like a powerful man in
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Hollywood. How did he not see the third
15:33
door here? So people really believed this,
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and I really believed it. But I've always been a bit
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iconoclastic, a little rebellious.
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I was the only Gothic kid at my military base high school.
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Oh my God. Well I mean, that tracks.
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There can only be one sometimes, but it's way more fun when
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there's a group of you. I wish I'd had some friends, but
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it was a very small school, very conservative military community.
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But yeah, so the second time this happened was that
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relationship that I was in was with a guy who was really,
16:02
really controlling and jealous and possessive, deeply
16:06
monogamous. He was the kind of monogamist
16:08
that wanted you to cut off any of your exes that you were still
16:10
friends with. And so I cut off this person far
16:14
away for over a year when I was with him.
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And by the end of it, I was like, I'm never doing that
16:20
again. That felt wrong in my body.
16:22
That felt so wrong. And not only am I never going to
16:25
cut him off again, I'm not going to agree to get into any
16:28
relationships where I can't have what I have with him.
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If I get the chance to be with him, it's so good that I'm not
16:35
giving it up. Life's too short.
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So I will no longer agree to monogamy in order to have a
16:39
place open in my life for this person and any other person who
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comes along where the connection is that strong or the connection
16:48
is just compelling. And so I eventually moved into
16:51
this philosophy of I just want to let my relationships be what
16:54
they are and not have anyone relationship dictating what
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other relationships can and can't be.
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I don't think anyone gets to have that kind of power over my
17:02
relationships. But me?
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Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's still your choice.
17:08
Like it's even if someone tried to have that power, it becomes
17:11
your choice. Like that's what you're saying.
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I'm feeling really sad because you probably agreed to it
17:16
because you thought that's what I'm supposed to do.
17:18
I'm supposed to choose him. And the only way to prove I
17:21
choose him is by cutting everything else off.
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And that's the way it's supposed to be.
17:25
I had people in my ear like, yeah, this is the price you pay
17:29
to be with a guy of that caliber, a guy who wants to
17:32
marry you, a guy who wants kids, a guy with a good job.
17:35
Everybody was acting as if I had this catch and I need to do
17:39
whatever he said to keep him. The reality was it was a toxic
17:42
fucking relationship. He was an insecure guy.
17:45
He ended up marrying like this woman who was married that he
17:48
was teaching guitar lessons to who just does whatever he says.
17:52
That's what's going to work for them.
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And that's what's going to work for them, and that's fine, but
17:56
it's not for. Me.
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It's so interesting too, that for him he was like, as long as
18:01
Samia cuts off her satellite friend, then we're safe
18:05
together. And how did that conversation go
18:09
with your the original guy? What are we calling him?
18:13
We can call him Daniel. That's his real name.
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OK, I was like, what fun name? OK, how did that conversation
18:20
would go with Daniel both cutting it off and then
18:22
eventually reaching out again? Well, so the cutting off was
18:27
really painful and he, he understood and he has
18:31
historically dealt with pretty bad depression and feelings of
18:34
self loathing. So he we almost took it like,
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yeah, I deserve this. You know, he's had that happened
18:40
to him a lot in his life because like me, he's very naturally
18:43
slutty and polyamorous. So he's had a lot of people be
18:47
like, I can't have anything to do with you anymore because you
18:49
are corrupt to your soul. And that's just not true.
18:52
He's got amazing character, but his natural way of being, he
18:56
goes against all of the things that our society says are
18:59
correct. So he kind of took it like he
19:01
deserved it. But when I came back, that
19:04
wasn't really meaningful. And that was part of why I
19:05
decided I'm never doing this again because he immediately
19:08
completely forgave me, immediately took me back into
19:10
his life. By that point, he was dating
19:12
somebody seriously that he ended up marrying who said she wanted
19:16
to be polyamorous but didn't. And there's a whole saga with
19:20
that. At this point, they're divorced.
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He and I are official and that's great.
19:24
But yeah, he just like immediately forgave me and said
19:27
he understood and took me back into his life and we.
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Picked up where he left off. That's a level of love that so
19:32
many of us aspire to find, to be accepted and forgiven and still
19:38
loved. That story has spun off into
19:40
another question. If someone thinks they want to
19:43
be polyamorous or they're in a relationship with someone who
19:45
says they want to be polyamorous, I would 100%.
19:48
You believe what people tell you, and people will tell you
19:50
who they are, but sometimes they might not be ready for the
19:52
struggles. It's hard to have one
19:54
relationship. I imagine it's slightly harder
19:56
to have multiples. Do you have any advice or tips
19:59
on what questions you can ask? For how you can know that the
20:02
person you're with is really polyamorous.
20:05
This is really tough because, you know, my marriage is at this
20:09
point pretty much a friendship and business collaboration
20:13
because he thought he knew what he was getting into with
20:15
polyamory, but it ended up being much harder for him to actually
20:19
do in practice than he thought it would be.
20:21
So I was so close to having two serious partners, but I think
20:25
I'm just going to have the one in all my comments.
20:28
I don't know, miracles could happen.
20:29
You know we're talking now and it's but, but now.
20:32
You mean you're just going to have that one?
20:34
Yeah, I think right now, really, as far as serious partners go,
20:38
it's Daniel because my husband and I have sort of like, cut off
20:41
the romantic part of our relationship.
20:43
And it has a lot to do with me having another serious partner.
20:46
And I thought I had things figured out.
20:48
Like I couldn't have been more clear about who I was at the
20:50
beginning. But we got married really fast
20:53
for financial benefit reasons, and also we really loved each
20:57
other. Yeah.
20:58
My advice? Don't get married fast.
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Eh? Yeah, it takes a couple of years
21:03
of living with a person to really know them.
21:06
And living that lifestyle, living the polyamorous lifestyle
21:09
or even the monogamous lifestyle, you can be any for a
21:12
long time and realize, wait, this is it, I want more.
21:16
Yeah, and I would also offer the advice particularly to women,
21:19
but I think there are some men who do this too.
21:21
Don't run yourself over for your relationship if it is not
21:25
working for you. Whether you're on the side of
21:27
I'm polyamorous and you're not letting me be who I am, or I
21:31
don't think I want to be polyamorous and this makes me
21:34
feel so bad, being in this kind of a relationship with you.
21:37
Just talk about it in a way that doesn't make your partner the
21:40
villain. Talk about it because you'll be
21:43
OK. If you get out of any old
21:44
relationship and you'll find new people, you'll be OK, I promise.
21:48
I promise that too. Can I double down and also
21:51
promise you will find new people?
21:52
You will find new people. I know there are times when it's
21:55
like it feels so dark and you feel so alone and so abandoned.
21:58
And I've been there like in the last year of I'm never going to
22:01
come back from this. I'm never going to love like
22:03
this again. It's not true.
22:04
That's a temporary feeling. So just know that sacrificing
22:09
your own needs for the sake of a relationship in a way that
22:12
affects your mental health in a negative way?
22:14
Not worth it. Get out of the relationship.
22:16
I did that for years trying to save my marriage.
22:19
So do you. Think the signs are there, then,
22:23
of people who aren't ready to be in it, OK.
22:27
And I'm getting better at seeing the red flags.
22:29
By the time the red flags started really being a parent in
22:33
my marriage, I had already given too much.
22:36
Like I had moved across the country.
22:37
We had gotten married to extract myself would have felt very
22:42
traumatizing emotionally and financially, but I still gave it
22:46
too long. Basically, I would say be really
22:49
clear about what you want upfront and be more explicit
22:51
than you think you need to be because a lot of times people
22:53
think they're talking about the same thing and they're not.
22:55
Some people think, oh, we're going to be polyamorous means
22:58
that we can have sex with other people.
22:59
Sometimes they don't always think, oh, that means that
23:02
you're going to have another person that's just as important
23:04
to you as me and I'm going to have to deal with that person
23:08
and I'm going to have to maybe like share a living space with
23:11
that person. Or if I don't want to do that, I
23:14
might have to make the decision that I'm not going to live with
23:16
you, you know? And how's that going to fly?
23:18
Like there are so many nitty gritty details that people gloss
23:23
over when they say I'm polyamorous.
23:25
You know, what does that mean? It means different things to
23:28
different people. So it get really granular about
23:31
it. Have really annoyingly tedious
23:34
specific conversations with your partners.
23:37
Explain what you're doing right now.
23:39
I thought it was really clear that I was kind of slutty and
23:41
had a lot of lovers strewn across the world.
23:43
You know, like the first time my hubby and I hooked up was in a
23:47
hotel room that my sugar daddy was paying for.
23:48
And he knew that I'm like, this is obvious.
23:51
And I'm telling him about the other people I'm sleeping with
23:53
and people I have in different places.
23:54
I thought that was clear, but apparently wasn't.
23:57
Like, I think he had the idea that once we got married, I was
24:00
going to just put all that away. This is a common misconception
24:04
that somehow either you're going to change your mind when you're
24:07
married or it's just going to naturally change when people
24:10
tell you who they are at the beginning of the relationship.
24:13
Maybe not explicitly saying it, but you weren't hiding all of
24:16
these people. But to him, he had that
24:19
misconception, so the advice is solid.
24:21
Part of it was my fault because when we decided to get married,
24:24
about a month before we did, I said, you know, I really want to
24:27
focus on you and us right now because like, we're getting
24:30
married and we're going to move and that's huge.
24:32
So I'm going to sort of step away from my other relationships
24:36
for the time being and focus on you for a while.
24:39
I meant, I meant a couple of months, but I did not say that.
24:45
You did not clarify that you meant for a few months, so he
24:48
thought this is the beginning of her choosing me and only me.
24:54
I think so, because a couple months later, when I tried to
24:57
have a conversation about any boundaries he'd like me to
25:00
respect, on a work trip back to New York where we had just moved
25:03
from, he shut down for a couple of days, couldn't talk to me.
25:06
And I was really surprised by that.
25:08
And it was very hard to process because I suddenly, but like, Oh
25:14
my God, my worst nightmare is being in a relationship that's
25:18
hard to get out of with somebody who's not cool with me having
25:21
other partners. Oh, so you were in your worst
25:24
nightmare. I was in my worst nightmare and.
25:27
Were you processing that at the moment?
25:29
Did you realize you were in your worst nightmare?
25:31
Or were you thinking, oh, it'll get better?
25:33
I thought it would get better at that point and I had once before
25:37
been in a serious relationship with somebody who was cool with
25:40
non monogamy at first. But then like 7 or 8 months in
25:43
he had a mental health episode and ended up really depressed
25:47
and told me that while he had been into it, now that he was
25:50
depressed it was hard for him. So I offered him temporary
25:54
monogamy and to give him some time because I was really busy
25:56
anyway and I wasn't really seeing any other people like
25:59
regularly so it was easy for me to do.
26:02
And I told him, like, we're going to talk about this when
26:04
you come out of your depression. So five months later, we did.
26:06
And he was shocked. He was like that.
26:07
We were happy. Like I told you we were going to
26:10
talk about that. Why don't men listen to me?
26:14
But to believe the most positive version our mind can concoct,
26:19
that is what I find in every facet of life.
26:21
It's like we will choose to think the good is going to
26:23
happen. But in that relationship, he was
26:26
somebody who listened to me, and we'd started talking about it
26:29
after his initial shock. And nine months after temporary
26:32
monogamy was instated, it was removed.
26:35
And then we were like a fully functional polyamorous
26:37
relationship until we broke up and we're still friends to this
26:40
day. So it's all did go back to.
26:43
That that was my earlier relationship, so I thought this
26:46
would work in my marriage. It did not.
26:48
It did not work. No, but you know what?
26:51
Thank you so much for answering all of these questions.
26:53
So I know this was not the plan. We weren't like, we're coming in
26:56
to talk about all these things, but you had reason to believe it
27:00
could change because it had. But at the exact same time, it
27:03
had already been what you wanted it to be.
27:05
It just temporarily paused and then went back to it.
27:08
It's like depression is the same as being sick in many other
27:12
ways. It's just like spring cancer and
27:14
being like, listen, I need your full attention right now.
27:16
So you honored that and then went back to it and then broke
27:19
up for I'm assuming? Totally unrelated reasons.
27:22
Much, much later. OK, three years.
27:24
Had reason to believe that this was how it was going to go down.
27:28
Like, no, we'll come around eventually.
27:30
But also this is it must have felt restrictive, suffocating.
27:35
It did for like a couple months, but then the pandemic hit, and
27:38
then it was like, well, I can't see anybody anyway.
27:40
So for a little while it was like, OK, well, this sort of
27:43
forces temporary monogamy. And so I can really just give
27:47
him time and space to work through whatever he needs to
27:49
work through. The issue was he didn't work
27:51
through it. He just ignored it.
27:53
And I don't think it's because he's a bad person or neglecting
27:56
his responsibility as a partner. I just think he didn't know what
27:59
to do. And he had things on his mind
28:01
that he thought were more important, like making sure we
28:04
were financially OK in this pandemic.
28:07
And, you know, he was afraid that, I mean, we were all afraid
28:10
that civilization was going to collapse.
28:12
Remember 2020? He was legitimately afraid that
28:16
they were going to be rioters and looters on our street.
28:18
Like he was getting alarm systems for the house and things
28:20
like that. And, you know, it was all scary
28:23
for both of us. Like, he had never lived in one
28:26
place like that on land before, since high school or college
28:30
because he'd been doing cruise ships for a really long time.
28:32
He was newly in the armed forces in his late 30s for the first
28:38
time. And there's so much change.
28:40
And I didn't appreciate at the time how scared and vulnerable
28:44
he felt. And the months just went by and
28:47
went by. And then a year went by, two
28:50
years went by. No progress was made.
28:53
In fact, the opposite. Things got worse.
28:55
And I, like, tied myself up and put myself on railroad tracks.
28:59
I've made bad decisions for myself.
29:01
I thought I was prioritizing my relationship at the expense of
29:05
myself. And that created such a toxic
29:07
dynamic. And neither one of us showed up
29:09
really well. But I'm trying to be, as you
29:12
know, compassionate as possible. But honest as possible because
29:18
this is the part I don't think we talk about in our
29:21
relationships. Everything you're saying could
29:23
probably be me talking about my ex fiance and I breaking up to
29:28
everyone just described about what I had.
29:31
I was burying my head in the sand or thinking it would get
29:33
better or being like it can't always be that bad.
29:35
We've had good times before and at the same time we were in
29:39
couples therapy together. But was I really trying to move
29:41
things forward in the relationship or move back in the
29:44
direction of what was going? Well, looking back, probably
29:47
not. You know, and you're saying the
29:49
same thing. Do you have a secret, something
29:52
so scandalous that you had to keep it from almost everyone in
29:55
your life because you knew other people just wouldn't understand?
29:59
Yeah, of course you do. We all do.
30:02
We all got secrets. I'm Samia Notes, the host and
30:09
creator of the upcoming podcast Closet Ed from Kirk Co Media.
30:14
My whole life I've been one of those people who said the quiet
30:16
parts out loud. I'm pansexual, polyamorous and
30:19
non binary. One of my dreams is to have two
30:22
husbands and I'm very close because I'm so out there people
30:26
feel comfy telling me their secrets.
30:28
I think I've cheated on every single significant relationship
30:33
that I've ever had in my life. I don't like just one sex, I
30:36
like both. There's a silent agreement where
30:40
I have gone out and done some sex work and we just don't talk
30:45
about it. These are people who look quote
30:47
UN quote normal on the outside. My husband and I have never been
30:53
monogamous. I'm a teacher.
30:54
I've kind of had to live that double life.
30:56
I think you just said that Jesus is for polyamory.
31:02
Well, I after collecting so many secrets, I've developed a
31:08
theory. There is no normal All of us are
31:11
freaks and we are dying to be able to talk about it.
31:13
I literally can love more than one person.
31:17
And I find it more fulfilling when I do.
31:19
Each episode of Closet Ed will feature a different anonymous
31:22
guest telling their personal truth for the first time ever in
31:25
public. It was my secret life.
31:27
I feel so happy you live in truth.
31:30
Come with me. If everyone told the truth about
31:32
who they are and what they want all at once, I'm pretty sure
31:36
we'd be forced to come up with a new definition for normal, and
31:39
maybe we'd judge each other a whole lot less.
31:42
We all got secrets. Yeah.
31:46
And I love him, like, so much. And he's still very much in my
31:51
life. And we're very much entangled,
31:53
particularly financially. So whatever happens with our
31:57
relationship, I want it to be loving.
31:58
And that's what I'm focused on now.
32:01
But I had to really, like, put on my big girl pants and stop
32:05
sacrificing myself. And it started with me saying,
32:08
OK, it's OK if you don't want this kind of relationship.
32:11
But I don't agree to monogamy. And I'm sorry.
32:14
I just can't give that to you. And if that's what you need to
32:16
be happy, I can't do it. And I moved to Los Angeles and
32:21
without him and without really giving him any say in the
32:25
matter. And we were on the rocks for a
32:28
while there. Then we decided to get back
32:31
together. Well, I mean, we never like,
32:33
we're legally separated or anything, but we gave it another
32:35
go. And, you know, for a couple
32:37
years we were fully open, fully polyamorous, but the same
32:40
problems were there that we're always there.
32:42
You know, the problems really went back to communication
32:45
agreement and taking responsibility for the
32:47
agreements that you make. I find there's a lot of people
32:50
in this world and I don't want to be gendered about this
32:53
because women do this too. But a lot of men, they act as if
32:57
when they make a relationship agreement that the woman is
33:00
forcing them to. So they'll agree to something
33:03
and then later they'll resent it.
33:05
And instead of being like, hey, I'm realizing I agreed to this
33:08
and I actually didn't want to agree to this.
33:10
Let's revisit this. Instead of that, it's you made
33:12
me agree to that. And that creates this horrible
33:15
villain victim, some dynamic that it's really hard to come
33:18
back from and it's really hard to cultivate love within, you
33:21
know, not taking responsibility for your own emotions and for
33:24
your own decisions and agreements can catapult a
33:27
relationship into full toxicity. And I see it a lot, not just in
33:31
non monogamous relationships. I was going to say it sounds
33:33
like a monogamous. Yeah, of course.
33:35
It happens in monogamy too. You forced me to agree to
33:37
something. But forced at what?
33:40
Like did I hold a knife to your throat?
33:42
No. Yeah, and it's hard for me not
33:44
to connect this to patriarch and the way we condition boys and
33:47
girls because our society makes every effort to emotionally
33:50
cripple boys. We do them a huge disservice and
33:54
to put the burden of emotional labor on girls from a very young
33:58
age, while there are always exceptions, you know, and people
34:02
doing the opposite set of behaviors, I do see a lot of men
34:07
who just don't have the emotional skills for deep
34:10
intimacy and responsibility with a partner.
34:14
And it's so sad because they're not bad people, You know, they
34:17
really feel justified in how they're behaving.
34:20
But it's not OK if you're in a relationship and you're an adult
34:23
and you make an agreement. Nobody fucking forced you.
34:25
Unless a gun was being held to your head, you're not being
34:28
forced. Somebody can say, I'm going to
34:30
leave you if you don't do this. And it's still not forcing you
34:33
because guess what? You're allowed to say OK, leave
34:35
me because I don't want to do it. 100% that yes, you do.
34:40
There's accountability, you have accountability, and you're
34:42
allowed to make your own choice, as opposed to I can't think of a
34:45
single decision I've made in the last three or four years that
34:48
was not actually my own decision.
34:50
Or I mean, I just can't think longer back than that.
34:53
But you're right. So it sounds like you eventually
34:56
had this open conversation more clearly, like you'd had the
35:00
conversation before but just didn't realize it wasn't clear
35:03
about the type of relationship you wanted.
35:06
In my marriage, it's just we've really never been able to find
35:08
true cohesion, like we've never been able to really get fully on
35:12
the same page. It's why we are where we're at.
35:15
And I'm starting to have these negotiations with Daniel because
35:17
we're sort of at the beginning of things.
35:19
He's still long distance, but he's going to be here sometime
35:21
in the next few months. And we've been sort of trying to
35:25
negotiate these things from afar.
35:27
And already I'm seeing, Oh my God, there are so many things
35:30
that you really have to start by defining the terms you're using.
35:33
Because I said something to him like I don't believe in veto
35:36
power in non monogamous relationships.
35:38
No veto power. OK, You don't get to tell me
35:40
what to do, and I don't get to tell you what to do.
35:42
And an example of that might be like, I'm going to go see this
35:45
person and you don't believe that Daniel would have the right
35:47
to tell you. I veto that.
35:49
You're not allowed to. Right.
35:50
Yes. And he's like, it makes me panic
35:53
to think that we don't have veto power because then, you know,
35:56
what if the other person is doing something that's putting
35:58
our relationship at risk, I'm like, then you talk about it,
36:03
you know, like, come to me and be like, hey, I feel like you're
36:06
doing something that's putting our relationship at risk.
36:08
And these are the reasons I think this partner that you're
36:10
seeing doesn't respect our relationship.
36:11
And they're doing these things. And I see these red flags.
36:13
And I feel like you're not seeing it because you're in NRE
36:15
land, you know, talk to me about it.
36:18
NRE meaning. New relationship energy we all
36:22
experience, non monogamous or not, that feeling of like
36:25
blissful obsession and like infatuation at the beginning of
36:30
a very sexy new relationship where you just can't stop
36:32
thinking about them. That's one of the big
36:34
destabilizing things in polyamorous and non monogamous
36:37
relationships because it's like you could have this nice vibe
36:41
with your nesting or anchor partner and then suddenly you're
36:44
obsessed with somebody new and they can feel neglected and they
36:47
might be neglected, you know, like you might lose track of
36:50
them because you're so focused on this and managing that is
36:53
hard for everybody, everybody. And there's a lot of content out
36:56
there addressing it. But the reason I, I don't want
36:59
veto power is because I know from experience that my partner
37:03
might think something is a red flag that I know is not.
37:07
They might be operating from a place of deep anxiety and
37:10
security and fear rather than a place of facts and reality.
37:15
And I might be able to be like, hey, I see what you're talking
37:18
about. I take your concerns seriously.
37:20
I don't want to make you feel bad, but there's no change that
37:25
this person is going to change the way I feel about you or turn
37:28
me against you or make me prioritize you any less.
37:31
And me going On this date this weekend with them is going to
37:34
change nothing. So I know that it makes you feel
37:37
uncomfortable, and I would love to do whatever I can to reassure
37:40
you. But I'm going to go on the date
37:42
because I think that your concerns are coming from a place
37:45
of fear and insecurity, you know?
37:47
And that happens a lot. And I want to be able to have a
37:49
partner that trusts me enough to let me go on the fucking date
37:53
and I might come back and be like, you know what, you were
37:54
right. They said this thing.
37:56
It was really disrespectful about our relationship.
37:58
I'm breaking up with them. Give me the chance to prove to
38:00
you that I will prioritize you when somebody else is trying to
38:03
get in between us, rather than vetoing it because you're
38:06
scared. Because that only creates a
38:08
situation where there's so many unknowns and the only way to
38:10
create safety, and that is by vetoing when really you want to
38:13
prove safety exists. Let me show you you're safe as
38:16
opposed to kowtowing to your veto.
38:19
I feel that vetoes are an instrument of control.
38:22
However, in this conversation with Daniel, it came out that he
38:25
sees vetoes as boundaries, which I define differently.
38:31
Yes, you can have a boundary. You can say, for example, say I
38:34
was drinking way too much, say I was becoming like a violent
38:37
alcoholic. You can say if you keep
38:39
drinking, I'm out. That's my boundary.
38:41
I can't be in a relationship with somebody who is a violent
38:44
alcoholic. That's a boundary, all right?
38:46
That's not the same as veto power.
38:48
And I think what this has to do is he's very new to the idea of
38:51
having like a fully polyamorous relationship with agreements
38:55
that are kept by both parties. He's never really gotten to have
38:58
that because in his last very long marriage relationship, it
39:02
was not like that. You know, they'd make
39:04
relationships and then later she'd say he forced her.
39:07
So the vibe I was describing earlier or agreements,
39:10
relationship agreements. And yeah, so he's not used to
39:12
that. And he's defining the terms
39:14
differently than I am because he's not as well versed in the
39:16
community and the collective consensus on these terms as I
39:19
am. So now we have to have a
39:21
conversation where I'm like, wait, let us define veto power
39:24
because it's different from boundaries and it's different
39:26
from ultimatums and deal Breakers.
39:28
Veto power is basically saying you're allowed to say I veto
39:32
this and I have to do what you say, but there are going to be
39:35
times when you're going to want to veto something and it's not
39:37
appropriate. And when I want to veto
39:38
something and it's not appropriate.
39:40
Like I would love to say you can never talk to your ex-wife again
39:42
because I think she's a toxic cunt.
39:43
You know, I would love to say that she was abusive to you.
39:47
She's horrible, I hate her. Don't ever talk to her again.
39:49
I veto you having a relationship with her.
39:51
That wouldn't be appropriate. They were married for a really
39:54
long time and I'm sure they have things to say to each other and
39:57
it might actually be good for both of them to do that.
39:59
And if he wanted to do that, he's allowed to fucking do that.
40:02
I don't get to tell him what to do.
40:04
Even if it makes me uncomfortable.
40:06
Which it was so healthy though to recognize that like oh, that
40:09
might actually be good for him or even if it's not good for
40:12
him, you trust him to come to that conclusion on his own, even
40:14
if you do like tell him how you're feeling it's.
40:17
Trust. It's trust.
40:19
So I don't want to replace trust with control.
40:22
Veto power to me means control. I would rather let us trust each
40:25
other when we're going to make mistakes and we have to be able
40:28
to recover from those. And that's another thing I think
40:30
a lot of people go into relationships thinking got to be
40:32
perfect, got to be perfect, and nobody's perfect.
40:36
I think we've got to be able to cultivate compassion and
40:39
forgiveness and true forgiveness in relationships.
40:42
Not being able to forgive somebody and let something go
40:45
kills so many relationships. It's very true.
40:49
I have been guilty of it myself. I think it's never just the one
40:53
thing that kills the relationship.
40:54
I usually think there's more things, but not letting go and
40:57
bringing it up over and over again.
40:59
But also everything you're speaking about is like 1 little
41:02
building block. Yeah, that's part of an
41:04
important foundation to any relationship, not just
41:07
polyamorous relationships. Exactly.
41:10
And that's the thing. All the skills that make one
41:12
adept at managing polyamorous relationships are the same
41:15
skills that work in monogamous relationships.
41:19
It's why when you have successful polyamorous
41:21
relationships, the people involved are often so wise and
41:25
emotionally advanced and have such incredible communication
41:29
skills like you have to. It's like to be in a successful
41:32
relationship, no matter what, Poly or monogamous, you need to
41:35
be able to do it. I think polyamorous
41:38
relationships expose the cracks a lot faster because we start
41:41
putting everything to the test. I'm monogamous.
41:44
We've talked about this, me and my partner monogamous.
41:46
It is something that we're, I'm going to say, pretty committed
41:48
to because it's like, well, are we ever going to play with other
41:51
people? What does that look like?
41:53
We're not sure. But at the moment I know that I
41:56
would struggle with that. If he had new relationship
41:58
energy with someone, that would take a lot and I would only
42:01
probably be OK with it because I already feel so comfortable
42:04
talking to him about everything. I know he'd respect the feelings
42:08
I was having and we would talk about and work through them.
42:10
So that's what I mean. It exposes it faster.
42:12
If we didn't have that foundation of talking, we'd be
42:14
screwed. Yeah.
42:16
It would be in harm's way. OK, Speaking of terms, you are
42:21
polyamorous, right? It's like a SAT question of like
42:25
are you then consensually non monogamous?
42:26
Is that polyamory? And I view it as that right?
42:30
But like I'm like OK let me question my own things.
42:32
You were polyamorous. That is a type of consensually
42:35
non monogamous relationship. But not everyone.
42:38
This is a teaching moment and me clarifying.
42:40
Not everyone who is consensually non monogamous is also
42:43
polyamorous. Under CNM comes those like just
42:46
having sex with someone else. The things that tend to confuse
42:49
people. What you described is your
42:51
definition of polyamory. Some people might be confusing
42:54
with what we're talking about is consensual non monogamy right
42:57
now too. So yeah, so I want to say First
43:01
off, like, I don't think we need the qualifier consensual or the
43:05
qualifier ethical. When we say non monogamy, I
43:08
think it's enough to say non monogamous.
43:10
And the reason I say that, and if anybody out there is aware of
43:13
the existence of the wonderful doctor Wednesday Martin, you'll
43:16
know who I'm where I'm getting this from.
43:19
And if you're not aware of her existence, go check her out
43:21
because she's amazing. But she started speaking really
43:24
loudly about these terms, consensual and ethical non
43:27
monogamy being very based in privilege.
43:30
They're very based in a situation where you have the
43:33
option to do it above board because you will be safe and you
43:38
will not lose your home or your children or your life.
43:41
There are people who do not have that privilege, who cannot take
43:46
non monogamy for themselves, who are in situations where they're
43:49
being controlled, being abused, they're financially dependent,
43:53
They don't have the option. And there's also people in
43:55
situations like, say you've got a spouse that you love very
43:57
much, but they're terminally ill and they've been that way for
44:00
years and they can't fuck you, but they'd be so heartbroken if
44:03
you wanted to fuck other people. What do you do then?
44:05
Yeah. Is it ethical to have sex behind
44:08
their back and not tell them No? Maybe not.
44:10
Will it keep you sane in a horrific situation that's
44:13
heartbreaking and difficult and help you feel like you're still
44:16
alive as you watch your partner die?
44:18
Yeah. Am I going to, am I going to, am
44:20
I going to judge somebody for doing that?
44:22
No. So I don't think we need
44:24
consensual or ethical. Non monogamy is non monogamy.
44:27
I agree with that. I'm really glad you kind of
44:30
clarified that because I do get hung up on the CNN versus E&M
44:33
and what it is. But then also, I do not
44:36
villainize cheating and I talk about this frequently because
44:40
there are so many circumstances we don't know or understand.
44:42
I talk enough about this that I know the terminally ill spouse.
44:47
Most people will then agree, yes, that's OK, right?
44:50
They will go through their own moral code and decide.
44:53
But then if it's any other reason, I think this idea that
44:56
we are in charge of policing whether or not someone else can
44:59
be non monogamous, part of the problem.
45:02
And that's we don't need to do that.
45:03
Yeah, there's an element of mind your own fucking business.
45:06
Yeah, so non monogamy is fine and polyamory is just a version
45:12
of non monogamy that allows for romantic connections as well as
45:16
sexual connections. But personally, and I'm, I'm a
45:20
little different when it comes to this, I don't think it's
45:23
necessary to really create that distinction because the people
45:26
out there who are like, Oh yes, we're non monogamous.
45:28
We only have sex with other people, but we don't fall in
45:30
love with them. All right, keep doing that for
45:32
long enough and one of you will guarantee it because you can't
45:35
control that. You can fall in love with
45:36
somebody else without having sex with other people.
45:38
Happens all the time. Yes, happens all the fucking
45:41
time. You can't control feelings.
45:42
Everybody is polyamorous. Everybody loves more than one
45:46
person. We.
45:46
Do I mean, unless you're a very sad individual, but there's only
45:50
one person in the world you love.
45:51
Yeah. I had two friends I talked to
45:53
this morning. I told them I love them both and
45:54
I meant that. Exactly.
45:56
So polyamory is actually the norm, but because we put
46:00
romantic love in a different, strange category than every
46:02
other kind of love, nobody wants to admit that.
46:05
But the reality is, romantic love functions exactly like
46:08
every other kind of love. Except maybe, maybe it doesn't
46:10
have the same. Well, I was going to say, maybe
46:12
it doesn't have the same kind of longevity or reliability as,
46:15
say, parental love, but there's a lot of parents that stop
46:18
fucking loving their kids. Oh, totally.
46:20
Who never did in the 1st place. We don't want to.
46:22
Yeah, we don't. Want to?
46:24
Right. We don't want to talk about that
46:25
either, but that's a real thing. Like I don't, I think my father
46:28
thinks he loves me, but he does certainly doesn't act like it
46:31
and doesn't like me. You know, it's like all of these
46:34
terms are very messy because we have ideas of how things should
46:36
be, but that's not how they actually are.
46:38
So I'm polyamorous just because I admit that I love multiple
46:42
people in both a platonic and a romantic sense.
46:46
Right now I have one serious romantic partner and I have a
46:50
lot of comments that are more like friends with benefits or
46:53
very casual dating relationships and I'm open to that.
46:58
Shifting and changing organically over time as it has
47:01
and will and that's it. I don't think it's that
47:03
complicated actually. I don't think it is and I
47:06
recognize to give monogamy my corner, not that you're taking
47:09
away from it. I also want to point that out.
47:11
Nothing you've said has taken away from my monogamous
47:14
relationship at all. I don't know you're being
47:16
monogamous and I'm fine with it. I agree with everything you've
47:19
said. I'm like, I love many people and
47:21
then I also recognize personally my monogamous relationship
47:25
allows me to live out the fantasy of the BDSM and dynamic
47:29
I want and I'm very happy to live in that.
47:32
And see, yeah, and monogamy is just an agreement to not have
47:35
sex with other people. It has actually nothing to do
47:38
with romance, because romance is something you can't really
47:40
control. I mean, you can all it all.
47:41
I guess it does include not having romantic experiences with
47:44
other people, but I would argue that going on an epic road trip
47:47
with a bestie is a romantic experience.
47:50
Which I did, yes. It's a lifelong memory,
47:52
creative, and it's a intimate experience where the two of his
47:55
experience things together that you had to be there.
47:58
Because I can't explain how angry I was at the minivan that
48:02
kept cutting us off multiple times unless you were there.
48:05
Because it's the little moments, it's the excitement that builds
48:08
between you 2 and the real moments of these things
48:10
happening, you know? So you can have romance without
48:13
sex. Yeah, and shout out to my friend
48:15
Mia though, who I had this. Full.
48:17
Experience with the road tripping across.
48:21
Wonderful. Not the whole state, but yes.
48:24
And she is one of the friends who I, I was on the phone too.
48:27
And I said, I love you because I do.
48:29
Yeah. And I think that's important
48:30
too. I, I see it on both sides, both
48:32
sides getting caught up because you can be 1, you can't be the
48:35
other or the other is wrong or feeling defensive of it, you
48:39
know, And I want to address that of like, you can be polyamorous
48:42
and you can be monogamous. And both are totally valid
48:44
choices for yourself that I don't need to get fucking
48:47
involved in, you know? And also, let's normalize when
48:51
we feel defensive, immediately questioning that and going, wait
48:54
a second, what unmet need in me was getting defensive about
48:58
this? Why am I getting defensive?
48:59
Why do I need them to operate in a different way than they are
49:02
when it doesn't actually affect me at all?
49:05
What is it that I want that I'm not getting?
49:07
You know, it's just like the same way polyamorous people when
49:10
they feel jealous instead of going, you made me feel jealous,
49:13
I hate you. You know, they go, wait, why am
49:15
I jealous? Am I being treated badly?
49:18
Am I insecure about something? And that's how Poly people deal
49:21
with jealousy. If they're, you know, advanced
49:24
and experienced the same thing with defensiveness.
49:27
If you're getting super defensive about something that
49:28
doesn't actually materially affect you, investigate why.
49:32
Because there's something there. It is actually, sadly, that
49:34
simple. The answer to the question might
49:37
not be simple, but asking yourself why is this coming up?
49:41
That part is foundational. It's fundamental.
49:44
It's pretty easy to do. And it's the emotionally mature
49:47
thing to do. It's just in this culture, we've
49:48
normalized emotional immaturity. If you're jealous, it's somebody
49:52
else's fault. If you're defensive, it's
49:53
somebody else's fault. Any bad feeling you have, it's
49:55
somebody else fault. They need to be stopped.
49:57
That is childish behavior, and that is the behavior of our
50:02
political leaders in this world. I don't disagree with that part,
50:06
but I also wonder, suck it up. No, I don't agree with that.
50:10
But my point is that the answer is I'm not telling you to suck
50:13
it up. I also think that if we have a
50:15
feeling, the idea that we're having a feeling that we can't
50:19
control get shamed too. So then we wash out because it's
50:23
like you're making me feel something right now and I don't.
50:25
I have emotions and I'm not supposed to have emotions.
50:29
I think there's something there too.
50:31
I think that too. So we're talking about all of
50:33
these things. We're talking about judgment
50:34
from monogamy or judging on both sides and just like living your
50:37
life and not getting into other people's business, but like your
50:39
mom knows about Daniel then earlier conversation.
50:43
Yeah, and her thing now is like, oh, it's going to be so great.
50:47
Once Daniel is here, you're going to just want to be with
50:49
him. He's the one for you.
50:51
And I'm like, Mom, you don't understand.
50:53
Because here's the other thing. I'm happy to admit this
50:55
polyamory and non monogamy are a little easier for me because I
50:59
have a kink about seeing my partners with other people.
51:03
So it will be very exciting for me when Daniel is here and I
51:07
start loaning him out to my friends.
51:08
Oh, I understand that. I have been in non monogamous
51:13
relationships before and I understand they're like oh this
51:16
is kind of exciting this. Is kind of.
51:19
Quite utterly titillating that they are off with someone else.
51:22
I have enough friends that are beautiful and wonderful and
51:25
under sext that I'm like, just wait until Daniel gets here.
51:28
I'll have him take you. And it brings me joy.
51:32
And also, I have multiple existing relationships.
51:35
None of them are like serious and tangled committed
51:37
relationships, but some of them have spanned years and they're
51:41
warm and they're loving and caring.
51:43
And I don't want to give those people up just because now I've
51:46
got my anchor partner here with me.
51:48
You know, those relationships are as important to me as any
51:50
platonic friendship. They're real, they're
51:52
supportive, They're not solely based on we get together and
51:56
have sex. It's like we have phone calls,
51:58
we text when we hang out, we spend more than half the time
52:01
talking and chilling and catching up.
52:03
They're real relationships and they count just like a
52:06
friendship that you see the person every other year but you
52:09
pick up where you left off each time counts.
52:11
These romantic sexual relationships count, and I'm not
52:14
going to just cut them all off because I've got somebody that I
52:16
want to live with. Is there a right answer to this
52:19
question? Do you think there is an amount
52:22
of healthy sharing versus possible unhealthy sharing with
52:25
your partner? Like is there a right way for
52:27
everyone? There rarely is, but basically,
52:29
do you think that people should be super honest and open about
52:32
all of their relationships with their anchor partner, or is it
52:35
nuanced? It's very nuanced.
52:38
I think when it comes to sexual health, you need to be explicit
52:42
about expectations. And if you break agreements
52:46
concerning sexual health, you need to be honest and
52:49
transparent about that. I mean, I want to hear all about
52:52
it. I'm like, that's hot.
52:53
Except if like for example, if Daniel had a partner that I did
52:57
not think was attractive, then I wouldn't want to hear about it
52:59
because it won't do anything for.
53:01
Me imagine it and it gets you excited but you don't have a say
53:05
on whether or not he can be with someone you find unattractive.
53:08
Like he gets to choose whoever he wants.
53:11
And I'm sure he will be into people that I don't personally
53:14
find attractive because he doesn't have a type.
53:16
And I mean, he's a lover and it's a beautiful thing and I
53:19
love that about him. So yeah, like there will be
53:21
partners he has where I'm like, tell me everything.
53:23
And partners he has where I'm like, I don't need to hair
53:25
around. I mean, it's not going to ruin
53:27
my life. If you want to share it, I will
53:29
listen. But if it's starting to give me
53:31
active ick, I'm going to tell you to stop.
53:33
And that has to be OK too. And then there's people who are
53:35
like, yeah, it's really nuanced. And then there's people who are
53:38
like, I don't want to hear about it at all.
53:40
I'm fine with you doing it. I don't want to imagine it.
53:42
I don't want to know the details.
53:43
I just don't want to know it. I just don't want to.
53:46
It's a turn off and you got to be able to respect that.
53:49
Like that's OK, you know? And it's tough for somebody like
53:52
me when it's me and my other encounters.
53:54
I do want to share, like I want to share with my anchor partner,
53:58
like what happened in the details and like the stuff that
54:00
made me giddy and glowing. And if I have a partner that I'm
54:04
serious with who doesn't want to know, that can feel a little bit
54:07
like, oh, but suck it up. That's your boundary.
54:12
It's not a deal breaker for you to not be able to share it, no.
54:15
You know, you got to be able to roll with people's stated
54:19
boundaries and comfort level with things.
54:21
And you know, and there's a good rule in developing new
54:24
polyamorous or non monogamous agreements that you go at the
54:27
pace of the person who feels the most anxious about it, the
54:31
person who at least wants to move forward in this direction.
54:34
You go at their pace. And I agree with that.
54:37
When you're starting from the beginning, I do feel like in my
54:41
marriage, I didn't get the opportunity to do that because I
54:43
thought we were like fully aligned and then we weren't.
54:46
And I was at a point in my life where I was like, I really won't
54:49
be happy pulling back as much as you want me to pull back.
54:53
Because I think he really wanted just like years of us being
54:56
monogamous and happy with it, and I was not.
54:59
Like 5 to 10 years. He wanted a long term investment
55:02
to feel secure. Yeah.
55:04
I don't know if there's a number that anybody could put on it,
55:06
but I know that he expected and wanted me to just want to be
55:11
with him. And that was not going to
55:13
happen. And it was like if we had both
55:15
been more mature and clear, we probably a lot sooner could have
55:19
gotten to a point where it's like, man, we fell in love so
55:21
fast and we really didn't understand what we wanted.
55:25
Very, very. Relatable, I think.
55:29
Yeah, I have a lot of hope for us to, like, find a relationship
55:32
that works because he still feels like family to me.
55:35
And I think, you know, maybe who knows if he always will, but I
55:40
want to say he always will because I have this incredible
55:43
love. And I think he does too.
55:45
And, you know, so we'll see. And another common thing in
55:49
polyamory is to not throw relationships away just because
55:53
they didn't work as the style of relationship we started out as.
55:56
You know, we fell in love in two weeks.
55:58
We were aged at 2 1/2 months and we were married after five
56:02
months. It was a whirlwind and it was
56:05
more than either one of us was really prepared for.
56:08
And it doesn't change the fact that we had this instant deep
56:13
connection. So I don't want to throw him
56:15
away just because the style of relationship we got ourselves
56:18
into from the beginning hasn't been working.
56:21
I want to see if we can keep the amazing amount of good stuff
56:25
that we have and find a way to let go of all the stuff that
56:28
hasn't been working so that we can still love each other in a
56:31
way that's functional. Yeah, because it's not over.
56:35
The story's not over. The book is not closed.
56:37
It's just moving on to a new chapter.
56:39
Yeah, it gets me emotional. You don't see it.
56:42
Yeah, that's understandable, because change, good and bad,
56:46
can be emotional. Yeah, yeah, transitions are
56:49
hard. It's a transition.
56:51
Yeah, But one of the things that I fight actively with the
56:54
monogamous paradigm is this idea that you have to throw people
56:57
away if a romantic relationship didn't work.
56:59
And I hate that. I don't think that is healthy.
57:02
I don't think it's humane. That's not how I want to live my
57:04
life. I don't throw people away that I
57:06
love. If you, if you abused me and
57:08
treated me badly and I don't feel safe with you, then yeah, I
57:11
will not talk to you again. But that's not the case here.
57:14
That's. True.
57:14
I still consider some of my ex's friends, even if we don't talk
57:17
as often. It's not like that person is
57:19
persona non grata and I will never speak to them again, ever.
57:22
Right. Yeah, Yeah.
57:23
I mean, there have been ones where they're like, no, this is
57:26
done. And that's like a mutual
57:27
agreement that like, wow, this really went so bad.
57:30
Yeah, I know. And I hope I want you back out
57:33
in a year where we can talk about the updates and like,
57:35
well, what happened here because I found love to so many
57:38
interesting things coming up in the next few months and Daniels
57:42
moving to your city. Yeah, he's coming here.
57:45
So exciting. I'm so.
57:47
Excited. It's going to be good.
57:50
This conversation took a turn when I asked about your
57:53
relationship. And then I was like, wait, I can
57:55
just ask questions and she's going to answer them.
57:57
And I didn't prepare you for that.
57:58
So like, I appreciate you being so honest.
58:00
Is there anything you wanted to talk about?
58:02
We're going to send people to your podcast too.
58:04
Right now I'm building my podcast in my audience, so
58:07
anybody who thought that they liked what I had to say can
58:10
e-mail me, can DM me on social media and I'm actually
58:14
accessible and that's not always going to be the case.
58:16
So guys, like get in touch, listen to my show, send me your
58:19
thoughts. If you have anonymous
58:21
confessions that you want on my show, record a voice memo and
58:25
e-mail it to me at closetedpodcast@gmail.com.
58:28
If you think you'd be a good guest for my show, e-mail me.
58:31
Yeah, get in touch with me right now.
58:32
I am accessible. I am talking to people.
58:35
I'm giving advice. I'm taking questions.
58:36
I'm answering them on my show. Like, let's talk.
58:39
That's what I want to say. I love it and as someone who's
58:42
had the honor of getting to talk to you for so long today, and as
58:46
a friend, a longer term, take that opportunity.
58:49
It has been such a pleasure, Sammy.
58:51
You know I love your voice. Like I think there were moments
58:54
where I didn't even ask that question 'cause I was like, no,
58:56
I just want to hear her talk a little bit longer about this.
58:59
Thank you. This will all be in the show
59:01
notes, but where on social media can we find you too?
59:04
Yes, so my personal accounts are Instagram and TikTok at Samia
59:09
dot mounts. That's S AM IA dot mounts like
59:12
she mounts the horse. It's a complete sentence and an
59:15
accurate one. You can find my show's Instagram
59:19
account at Closeted with Samia. That's the only place the show
59:23
has its own account. Everywhere else, it's just my
59:25
account. And I talked about the show.
59:26
Yeah, that's it. And the show, of course, is
59:29
available everywhere you get your podcast.
59:31
Right now I'm producing in between seasons, bonus content.
59:34
It's all interviews with amazing people like Amanda.
59:37
And that is mostly video content.
59:39
So it's on YouTube and Spotify, but then audio only everywhere
59:42
else. My second season is in
59:44
production right now. If you are new to me and my show
59:48
and you want to check out the actual show, go back to the
59:50
beginning of the show. Listen from episode 1.
59:52
Don't listen to the most recent things because that's not the
59:54
show. Those are the bonuses.
59:57
I love it and I was on a bonus episode.
59:59
You were a bonus episode. Yeah, very popular bonus
1:00:01
episode. People love you.
1:00:02
I love you. Everyone also go listen to my
1:00:05
bonus episode. But yes, definitely check out
1:00:07
closet Head. You are going to enjoy it.
1:00:10
I think there's a lot of overlap over the people who enjoyed our
1:00:13
conversation today and people who are going to enjoy your
1:00:16
podcast. And I love that we got to have
1:00:18
it because now you were in the hot seat for today.
1:00:19
And thank you. I know and I'm like hot.
1:00:22
I'm like actually sweating in. Many ways you are hot.
1:00:25
Yes, thank you. Like keep us up to date.
1:00:28
Let us know everyone go follow Samia.
1:00:30
We need to follow this story. We need to know, do you ever
1:00:33
share these intimate parts of your life anywhere?
1:00:36
Or have we just gotten like a lucky peek behind the curtain on
1:00:39
today's episode? Honestly kind of a lucky peek,
1:00:42
like I am starting to get more comfortable with sharing these
1:00:45
things, but it's new and yeah this is the most I've ever
1:00:49
shared. I'm totally fine with this being
1:00:51
your safe space to open up on the King Consultant Podcast so
1:00:54
we could talk about it. I love it.
1:00:56
I appreciate you so much for being my friend, for being on
1:00:59
the podcast today, and. It's an honor.
1:01:02
I can't wait to follow along on the journey.
1:01:04
Thank you Amanda, I'm so happy to be following along on your
1:01:07
journey too. You're incredible.
1:01:09
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here.
1:01:13
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
1:01:15
a review, and share it with anyone who might find it
1:01:18
interesting. And if you have any questions or
1:01:20
topics you'd like me to cover in future episodes, feel free to
1:01:22
reach out e-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
1:01:27
Until next time, keep on kinking on.