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Why Gay Men Love Divas · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host today. My name is Michael DiIorio, and joining me are Matt Lancitle and Reno Johnston. Today we are celebrating our love of the divas. But this isn't just superficial stuff. We will be going deeper, hence the name of our show, into why exactly gay men connect so deeply with divas, how they have carried us through hard times, and how we can channel our own inner diva. What we want you to get out of today's episode is understanding that divas are more than just a part of gay popular culture. They really can and do help us shape our identity. They can be role models for us and can even be our best friends and therapists from time to time. If you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening to us on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, what traits qualify someone to be a gay diva? I thought about this over the week and I narrowed it down to four things. And I know some of you are going to disagree with me on this, and that's totally fine. I invite all the disagreement. All I ask is that you channel your opinions into the comments section on YouTube or I will respond to you in kind. All right, here are the must have four must have traits of a gay diva, according to me. One, I mean, they need to be a female singer or performer, at least start off that way. A lot of divas then expand into things like acting and business ventures, but I think they start off as singers, performers. Two is what they embody. They embody confidence, resilience, unapologetic self expression and strength. That is what makes a diva. The third thing is their history and their story. They have some kind of underdog story. They've overcome some kind of hardship, and they have defied expectations to rise to the top. They are survivors. They withstand the haters and the trolls. They can survive a career setback, and even when they fall, we love them anyway. And lastly, this is an important one. They are allies. The gay divas are loyal to the LGBTQ community and we are loyal to them. They are vocal in standing up for rights, and they unapologetically celebrate queerness in their art, whether it's a song, music video, whatever they do. Okay, those are the four I love this discussion about gay divas, again, because it seems very surface on the surface, but there's so much more to it if you dig deeper. That's what we want to do here today. One thing I love about this discussion is that it is universal. Divas are universal. They are a bit of a shared language within gay culture that I absolutely love. Every generation of every man that I've spoken to has some kind of gay diva. Whether, you know, they're old school and they love the Judy's, Judy Garland and Cher and Liza, or whether they're someone who's just coming up now and they're like, doja cat is there is their person. Right? Every generation has their crop of divas. Also, I travel a lot. Every country has their own diva. So I want to give a shout out to, you know, we're coming at you from the North American perspective, but I know, I know when I was in Spain, when I was in Mexico, when I was in Italy, every country has their own version of this. So, you know, that is universal. The iconic ones, I think, span across generations, and they span and they span across borders as well. Okay, so to get the juices flowing, I got a list here of some of the most popular, I would say gay divas. Again, this is according to me, and I put them in order from era. Okay, so we've got cher starting in the 60s and 70s. We got cher, the queen of reinvention. Then there is Diana Ross, whose song I'm Coming out is like non stop gay anthem. 30, 40, 50 years down the road, we are still hearing it every pride, all the time. Then there's Barbara Streisand, who I love her because she was told multiple times that she needed to change her appearance, she needed to fix her nose to become successful. She didn't. She did not do that. And guess what? She was very successful, was she not?
• 4:17
  Speaker B: That nose is iconic, right?
• 4:20
  Speaker A: It is what makes her her. And she has been successful because of it and I think loved even more because of it, which is a beautiful lesson to learn. And then there's Liza. Not only is she Judy Garland's daughter, she's quirky, over the top and talented. And like, what is not to love? She's just such a ball of fun. Okay, then there's the 80s and 90s generation. This is the generation which I grew up in. Madonna comes to mind first and foremost. She pushed every boundary and championed LGBTQ rights before it was cool to do so. Then there's Whitney, whose voice just still makes me shiver to this Day and has given us those iconic emotional anthems. There's so many more from that generation. Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Celine Dion, Dolly Parton. Okay, then we go into the 2000s and then we've got the Beyonce's, who in my opinion, she just embodies excellence in everything she does. Lady Gaga, who is one of my faves as well. She is a fearless supporter of LGBTQ rights and beyond. Talented. Even today, as we're recording this, Lady Gaga is all up front and center advocating for trans folks. So she's still kicking it. We got RuPaul. RuPaul is the reason drag is mainstream. And she has been insanely successful in being unapologetically himself, herself. Also from this generation, we got Kylie Minogue, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, JLo, Shakira, Ariana Grande. And then we've got the new generation, the new crop. Now, I'm iffy on these. It remains to be seen if these will survive the test of time. So I'm not going to call them divas just yet. But they're on their way, they're showing signs, and we'll see what happens. So who I have in this crop is Kim Petras, the first trans pop star. She's even won a Grammy. And her music just. I mean, those lyrics just speak to me. We've got Taylor Swift, which is a bit of a divisive, controversial one, because she does. She has a very wide popular appeal. So she not only appeals to the gays, but she also appeals to like, you know, the rural folks. And she has just this wide popular appeal. So I think she does appeal to the masses, including our, our community as well. Dua, Lipa, doa, Cat, Rosalia. Those are some of the ones that I came up with. Now I'm just naming a few here, guys. Okay, so I know some of you listening are fuming that I didn't include your girl. It's okay if I miss someone? Go ahead and let us know in the comments. All right, let's jump into the conversation, guys. We probably have a lot of gay divas, but I want to know who was the first. Who was the first one who really connected with you? And today, let's start with Reno.
• 6:48
  Speaker B: Well, first of all, so funny listening to you describe what makes a diva. And there was one thing that I had thought of that you left out, and it's they advocate for themselves and for their needs. You know that I was thinking about this as like, they really do, though. I forget what that thing's called. They have like a Sheet. If you're, like, an actress or a singer, there's a term for it, but, like, there's often this joke that, like, they want all green M&Ms. And, like, pickles, or, like, Rihanna loves, like, red hot Cheetos in her room. Right? But I love this. Like, they advocate for their needs. And, no, I feel like if it were a man, that probably wouldn't be a problem. They'd just be seen as, like, clear about what they want.
• 7:37
  Speaker C: Right?
• 7:38
  Speaker B: But if it's a diva, well, she's a, you know, fill in the blank, right? So I just thought that was really interesting. And then the second thing that came up for me is like, oh, you just described me. I'm the first diva that I met. You know, it's like, me. But if I remember correctly, there was Lisa Stansfield, who I vaguely know, but apparently I was listening to her music with my mom and belting out her tunes before I had any idea, like, who she was. And to be honest, I only vaguely remember her, but I remember a track of hers coming on one time, and I just, like, I started singing along, and I was shocked that I could remember this from, like, 3 years old or something. Like, it's wild. So she. She was first, you know, Then there was Belle from Beauty and the Beast, which I mentioned on here. She. She was definitely, you know, one of my divas. And what was dope about her, I guess, is, like, the whole town thought she was nuts. You know, the whole town thought she was crazy. And she just, like, did her own thing and moved to the beat of her own drum and was into books and not really into boys. And I don't know, I was like, she's cool. And then Mariah Carey showed up, right? So this is one we're all familiar with.
• 9:08
  Speaker A: She.
• 9:08
  Speaker B: She came next. And her. Her music just, like, moves something in me. Her presence moves something in me. And I would say that was sort of the beginning, in many ways of my foray into the exploration of divas and my draw to divas. There's one. And this is gonna sound so cheesy, but I gotta say it.
• 9:37
  Speaker A: I love it.
• 9:38
  Speaker B: It's my mom, you know, like, for real, though. And I mean this truly. Like, I just remember seeing, like, her hair, her clothes, her makeup, how she moved through the world, the way her presence, like, commanded as she sang. She modeled when she was younger, you know, and so, I mean, I grew up with a diva, right? Like, a diva raised me. So she was definitely, you know, numero uno.
• 10:08
  Speaker A: Reno. What about Mariah. Was it a song, a soundtrack, an album?
• 10:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. There were two. I think it was called Shy Guy. I can't remember. Oh, Lord of mercy, Mercy, mercy. I forget the name of the song, though, but I think it's like, Shy Guy. No, no, no. Sorry. I'm thinking. No, no, no. That isn't Mariah. Wait, who's that? I got her mixed up. Okay, but then there's another one by Mariah, and it's like a famous one from Fantasy. Yeah, no, it was even before that.
• 10:41
  Speaker A: Okay, Like. Like earlier. Like, Vision of Love.
• 10:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but it was. And it was even before that. Why am I so bad at this? Like, early. Early. Anyway, it was one of those songs, and I wish I could remember it off the top of my head.
• 10:56
  Speaker A: We'll get back to it. We'll get back.
• 10:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I just remember belting that song out in the car, you know, and it just. It did something to me, and that was it. And, I mean, I'll get into Beyonce at some point, but that. She's like, that's my girl.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: Okay, beautiful. So, Matt, what about you? Who was your first?
• 11:15
  Speaker C: I really resonate with what you said about your mom, because my mom was the same. She, like, always had her hair done up and, like, dressed to the nines. It was just. I think it was an 80s thing. 80s 90s. It's like all the women of that era, lots of makeup, and they all, like, you know, were probably emulating that diva energy. So it's a toss up between three. So Cher, Celine, and Mariah, and all for different reasons. And I think I fell in love with, like, diva music at a young age because I had horrible separation anxiety, and I was a very anxious child. And every morning, driving to school in my mom's Oldsmobile, I would be like. I'd have these panic attacks of, like, oh, I don't want to go to school. There's too many kids. There's too many noises. It's just, like. It's so much. And my mom would always put on, while Celine Dion or Cher, different songs like that. And it would, like, give me. I don't even know. I think it would just give me, like, presence, probably, like, pull me out of the anxiety and just allow me to sing with her. And she had such a lovely voice. I remember I used to love my mom's voice, and so that was probably what got me into singing and, like, you know, hearing her sing, and it gave me permission to sing. But I think Mariah probably would be the one that stands out the most. Although I love singing Celine songs and I just love Celine. Like, she's amazing and she's Canadian. But something about Mariah, because I really love R B and hip hop and I love how she kind of was a diva that merged herself into R B and hip hop and she had those flavors. So she always had remixes and different sort of, you know, hip hop and R B artists that she would collaborate with. So I pretty much know every lyric to every song of hers because every time an album would come out, I would just listen to it on repeat and learn all the songs. So Mariah for sure. And you know, I wouldn't say I really emulate like, like what they're about. It's more so the music, the music speaks to me. But if I were to pick out things that I see across, all of them would be the confidence and just how they just own it and they can get up in. In front of all these people and just own it and dance and sing. And then I really appreciate the ones that don't lip sync, which is probably very few of them on stage, especially if they're very choreographed. But the ones that really, you know, truly, like, I probably would say Beyonce is one of them. Like, I don't think she lip syncs her. Her songs and she's just always belting it where Mariah. Can't say that about Mariah. She's definitely a lip syncer.
• 13:33
  Speaker B: So was that a read, Matthew? Was that a read?
• 13:38
  Speaker A: She was. She was good at her time.
• 13:40
  Speaker B: The library is now open, folks.
• 13:44
  Speaker A: Tell us more about Celine. You didn't talk too much about Celine. What is it about Celine specifically? I think she's different than the rest.
• 13:49
  Speaker C: She is. Yeah.
• 13:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. Tell me why.
• 13:51
  Speaker C: So she's. She's got that part in her that is very emotive. She's super emotional. She's French Canadian. She's. Her facial expressions, even when she sings, it's like you can't help but to like feel what she's. What she's singing. And I think there's that part in me too. Like I'm a very passionate person and she's just really passionate. And she sings a lot about like love and like she's, you know, there's a very like a richness in the way that she sings and the type of song she sings. So, yeah, I just really respect that about her. And she's also like a very down to earth kind of like Canadian girl. Like she's got that energy about her, like, which I really Love. She's not. Well, I don't really know her, but for how she presents herself, obviously, she's seems like she's just very chill, down to earth kind of person.
• 14:35
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's what I think makes her different. And she's always been, like, in that energy of, like, she wants to be a mom. She always wants to be a mom. She's a family person. She was very close to my family. I'd love that. She just. She didn't try to be a pop star. She just kind of was one.
• 14:46
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:48
  Speaker A: Are there any songs in particular that you just love to belt? Because I got one comes to mind for me, for Seline, For Celine. Yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker C: Oh, the Power of Love is probably a classic. If the Walls could Talk maybe would be one. That's not, like, a very typical song that people would know.
• 15:04
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:04
  Speaker C: I have an album on my playlist that is. I've just pulled songs off of all of her albums that I love.
• 15:10
  Speaker A: For me, it's. Where does my heartbeat now? Oh, my God. How could you not sing to it? And, like, not just sing, but, like, perform. Like, if I'm somewhere, I'm like, okay, I need to stop, and, like, focus and, like, belt it out, which I'm not a terrible singer, by the way. So, Reno, do you have a Celine song that you just can't stop singing?
• 15:28
  Speaker B: No. Whitney Houston is my Celine. Like, if I will always love you comes on at any point. Like, I will stop what I'm doing and go into full diva mode. Yeah.
• 15:41
  Speaker A: Beautiful. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, for me, mine's very clear because this woman has been part of my, like, who I am, very much part of my identity. My first diva is Madonna, and I'll tell you why. So my family grew up listening to. I grew up listening to a lot of music with my family. I'm, you know, the youngest. My. My dad always had music on. My mom always had music on. We just always had music on. My sister was older than me. She always was playing the radio. So at the time that I was growing up, Madonna was like the queen of pop. She was on the radio constantly. And my dad specifically liked her because she was Italian. Little did he know what that would end up meaning to me. So, you know, before I even understood what her music was like, I just. I just liked the bop. I liked the beat. I just was. I was a kid and was like, oh, this is fun music. So I would. I would listen to it. And then as I got older and gayer and as she became more outspoken, I just really learned to appreciate her even more. And even to this day, those songs from the 80s and 90s, like, still light a Fire Within Me, a lot of them. And I think what it is for me is as I got to know more about her, like, we have a lot of the same background, right? Madonna grew up in the Michigan burbs. I grew up in the burbs, just across the lake in Ontario. She came from an Italian blue collar family. So did I. She was born and raised in the Catholic church. So was I. She rejected it and subverted it. So do I. She has very strong ties to her family. So do I. So there was a lot of that in there, too. I think that I resonated with that. And then if you remember that song Like a Prayer in that video, specifically, like, that was when I was like, okay, this woman I love. So if you guys don't know the video, it was 1989 at the time, so this was very controversial, which now probably means very little. But she did this video where there were burning crucifixes. The Jesus that she depicted in the video was black. And if you've ever been to any church in America, you probably won't find a black Jesus, or never mind America, just the world, which was amazing that she just made her Jesus black. There was interfaith sexuality. There was interracial sexuality. There was. There's times where she's singing the lyric, I'm down on my knees, I want to take you there. And she's kneeling in front of this black Jesus, and I'm like, girl, yes. So obviously the Vatican lost its fucking mind. And so did a lot of her audience. A lot of her audience was just like, oh, my gosh, she's gone too far. She's lost the plot. But she did it anyway. And the fact that she did it so defiantly and so courageously and just in this. I don't give a fuck. I think that stays with me today. Like, there's a little bit of that in me today. So, yeah, that she's my numero uno, first diva that really was like, okay, this woman's pretty cool now. At the time, I was still very shy and, like, in the closet and a quiet kid, but I got to live my fantasy out through her. Like, I got to see her and be like, oh, my God, I want to be her. I want to be like that. That's so cool. But I would never have the courage at the time to do that in my own life.
• 18:39
  Speaker C: It reminds me of the Story that you told on. I think it was the shame episode that you and I did, maybe duo about. You wrapped it in a towel and you were just dancing and singing.
• 18:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 18:48
  Speaker C: And your dad looked at you. It was like, what are you doing? Yeah, I always remember that from that. That episode. What's your favorite Madonna song?
• 18:57
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. You can't make me pick. I probably have one from each generation or each decade. I would say, going back to the early years, it was probably like Prayer and. Or Vogue, because they were. Vogue was the year after. Yeah, those were probably the two that. That album, the Immaculate Collection, was kind of a greatest hits up until that moment, up until that time. So it had on there like a. Like a Virgin, Material Girl, Papa Don't Preach. Open your heart. Like, all of her best hits were, like, in that one album. And that was. The first CD that I bought was Immaculate Collection by Madonna.
• 19:28
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 19:28
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 19:29
  Speaker B: Wait, what was the first CD you bought, Matt? Like, diva.
• 19:33
  Speaker C: Oh, it wouldn't be diva. I think it was Alanis Morissette. But she would.
• 19:37
  Speaker B: Well, she's a diva.
• 19:38
  Speaker C: Yeah, I guess she's in her own way. She's kind of a Canadian icon. Well, she's more international, I guess, but, yeah, she was the first concert I ever went to and the first album I ever bought.
• 19:47
  Speaker A: No way.
• 19:48
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Speaker A: What about you?
• 19:49
  Speaker B: Love her.
• 19:50
  Speaker A: What about you?
• 19:51
  Speaker B: Destiny's Child. I think it was Destiny's Child or Low Kid. It was. It was both of them because I bought a few together. They came in the mail together. I remember it was like, so my first. What's that?
• 20:02
  Speaker C: Columbia House. Do you remember that?
• 20:04
  Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And I got. It was Lil Kim and Destiny's Child. I was so excited to get those albums. Oh, my goodness, guys.
• 20:13
  Speaker A: I chose to wear a shirt. I know. Like, our audience who can't see me. Look at my little shirt today.
• 20:17
  Speaker C: Oh, cool.
• 20:18
  Speaker B: Oh, cassettes. Yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because I'm old. All right, guys, let's give our audience a chance to chime in here. So if you're watching us on YouTube, please put in the comments. Tell us who's your diva and why. Who is your first diva and why? Let us know. You know what it was about them that appealed to you, what captivated you about this diva? And, yeah, if you want to share with us your particular song or album, I'm always up for hearing new tracks that maybe I don't know yet. And if you are enjoying the conversation we're having here, we invite you to join us in the gay men's Brotherhood. For our weekly events, we have sharing circles where you have a chance to share your own experiences in a bigger group. And then we also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you get to discuss the topics that we discuss here on the podcast with other members of the community in small little pods just like we are here. Please go to www.gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, that's totally okay. Make sure you get on our email list, and we will email you all the information you need. All right, let's talk about what it is exactly that gay men are drawn to in divas. What do you think that's about, Reno?
• 21:29
  Speaker B: Well, I think divas walked so gay men could run. And there's. There's a few pieces or a few layers to this. I think number one is, as gay men, we experienced a sort of exile when it came to masculinity and men, you know, and so I think it's natural that we would gravitate toward where we felt more love, and we would also seek figures within that particular realm that were inspiring to us, that embodied power and authenticity and freedom and expression and a zest for life and uniqueness and an eye for style and, you know, a creativity and an advocacy for their needs and for other people. I mean, there's so many things there, right. So it makes sense to me that we would naturally gravitate in that direction. And then I think by default, like, they just seem to be having more fun in a way. Like, in a different way. And I'm not saying there aren't, like, male figures or archetypes that aren't having a good time or aspirational, but the divas seem to be, like, really having a good time. You know, there's like, a sparkle and joie de vivre and, like, a nerve, an audacity about them that, you know, the hair, the sensuality, like their smells, the colors, the clothing they wear, the way they express and use their voices and the way they move in their bodies and the way they carve out space, create openings in the world through their being, through their expression. Like, you talked about Madonna. And I can think about. I mean, I can think of so many other divas, you know, Marsha P. Johnson, Rosa Parks. And if we're not just talking about musical divas, if we're just talking about divas in general. Right. Oprah Winfrey, who stepped into the space and created such an Opening for so many others. What's not to love about that? What's not to be drawn to there? So I would say that. And also I think it speaks to parts of ourselves that long to exist, to be expressed in the world, to be embodied. Right. And so, yeah, I would say those are some of the things that gay men are drawn to when it comes to our divas.
• 24:10
  Speaker A: What about you personally? What are you specifically personally drawn to in gay divas and which one?
• 24:16
  Speaker B: Probably everything I said. But on any given day, I'm listening to or watching, like, I'll go back to Beyonce's documentaries on YouTube on multiple occasions, and I'll listen to her music and I'll watch shorts and look at her in interview. And there's a power that I think is tempered with grace and that is. And an authenticity as well. Like, that is beautiful to me, you know, and in recent years, I think what I've found most inspiring about her, and I'll say Rihanna as well as another example, they both given birth and they both come into their womanhood, and there's just something so different about their energy and their embodiment. It feels like they have tapped a depth of power and performance as a result of, like, really coming into womanhood and giving birth to life. That is just magnetic, you know, and unstoppable. It's very clear to me if you fudge with any one of these people, they will rip your head off, but also, like, they will love you fiercely and their forces to be reckoned with. Beautiful. Beautiful.
• 25:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a lot of it to what you just said about, like, they will, you know, you can't fuck with them. I think that is maybe one of the answers to the question is I think what gay men love about it is where we may have been victimized and bullied. We see these women as people who can protect us or just wouldn't stand up for that. Matt, what about you? What? First answer the greater question, maybe. What do you think? Overall, gay men, why are we attracted to divas? And then speak personally to your own.
• 26:01
  Speaker C: Well, Reno pretty much covered them all. I would say, just to put it in my own words, probably, that they're in their power. And I think what you just said, like, you know, we grew up typically in cultures where we were disempowered so we can kind of live vicariously and see through them like it's an inspiration. So I think it's a. It can be inspiration for us to continue to fight and. And be in our power. I think there's a femininity that I see. And it's interesting because when, you know, anytime I've ever dated somebody, I usually have dated pretty masculine guys. And as we're in a relationship and you start to get to know them, their feminine, more flamboyant parts come out. Right. And I've seen this with straight men when they get drunk, and more macho guys when they get drunk, they start to, you know, act a little bit more silly and playful and flamboyant. So I think there's that part in every human being that's like, you know, that beer, sassy kind of that part of people. So it almost like gives permission to. Or either gives permission or it's like you can watch it in somebody else because you don't feel comfortable exhibiting it within yourself. Could be. But again, this is just kind of overanalyzing it. But to get. Keep it super simple, I would say probably just the music. Like, the music, the dancing. You know, gay men love music and dancing. And, you know, we've heard it in. In nightclubs since we were little baby gays. So it's almost been programmed in us to. And then drag has been significantly influenced by it. So, yeah, it's quite integrated into our culture. Mainstream gay culture, at least. Yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker B: I love what you said about permission, Matt. That's such a good word. I'm curious about something for you. Like, do you remember. You might have mentioned this already, but do you remember the first time you kind of felt that permission or like that power, like, from a diva?
• 27:49
  Speaker C: I was always performing as a kid, and I can't remember, but, like, probably like Cherry. Cher would be somebody that probably, you know, we'll probably share. Mariah. Tina Turner, actually, we know no one's mentioned Tina, but Tina's for sure had an influence. Even like Toni Braxton, probably, people like that. So. But yeah, I was always just singing as a kid, singing and dancing and putting on little shows for my mom and my sister and stuff.
• 28:13
  Speaker B: So that's so sweet. Well, thanks for sharing that.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: For me, it's more so aspirational. Like, I wanted to sing and dance and put on shows, but I think, because, I don't know, I just was taught not to. I was just very quiet, but there was that deep yearning within me. So again, what you said really does ring true for me too, is that permission. But before I gave myself that permission, it was very aspirational, like, that's what I want. And I knew that that's who I wanted to be. Even Though I didn't believe I could. Yeah, you guys kind of nailed a lot of the things. I think what gay men see in divas is a lot of that underdog story that I think we talked about. You know, Barbara, a lot of them, A lot of them had some kind of hardship or were told they were too ugly, too this, too that. Not. Not this enough, not that enough. And I think that really resonates a with queer folks and then the fact that they have just defied those expectations. I think we love a good hero journey. We love a good aspirational story where the underdog comes out on top. And I think that's a big piece of it. Everything you guys had said about role modeling, for me, that's very much the case. True. The case, too. Like I said about Madonna. But all the divas, in all their ways, through the generations, even today, they take up space. They don't ask for permission, they just do it. It's like, I'm here. I don't care if you don't like it. And my opinion matters and my voice matters. You don't have to like it. I'm still going to tell you what I think and that I love. And like, again, it's given me permission to have my own version of that in my own way. I'm not a pop star. I don't sing, but I do that in my own way on this podcast, in the work I do. Right. So, yeah, they kind of showed me and role models for me how I was done because I didn't have people in my life really at that level that showed that as much. And they did it in such a big way, in such a big, fabulous way with great music and great performances. Like, it's just so compelling to the. To the eye and the ear. And the last thing I think for me personally is I talked about in the beginning, they were my first therapists. To this day, music is my therapy in many, many ways. When I'm at the gym, when I'm walking, going for walks, when I'm at home, even. Even just today, before listening to this, I had on some Madonna music to get me in the mood. But like those empowering tracks, divas sing a lot about resilience, survival, defiance, heartbreak, love, all the things. And, like, the lyrics just speak to me. You know, we talked about Celine, but there's so many. Mariah is a great one. Whitney. They just have so much emotion in their songs one way or another, so much power. And that's so beautiful and compelling and at Times where I didn't have it or I couldn't express it, or I didn't have the words or I was too afraid or whatever the reason was. Like, it gave it to me when I couldn't have it in myself. So I think for a lot of people, music is therapy, and they are our first. I don't know, bits of advice I remember I still to this day. Madonna's lyric, don't go for second best, baby. Put your love to the test. You know, you know, you know you've got to from express yourself is, like, ingrained in my mind. Anytime I'm dating, I'm like, no, I'm not going for second best. Keep going, keep looking, keep going. And then from human nature, the one I love, the one the lyric I love is, there's a few breaking all the rules I didn't make. Again, very Madonna, very defiant. And I'm not your bitch. Don't hang your shit on me.
• 31:14
  Speaker B: That is my favorite Madonna song. I listen to it on repeat all the time. It's probably, like one of my most listened to on Spotify. Like, oh, love that song.
• 31:24
  Speaker A: And it's so sexy at the same time. It's defiant, it's sexy. Like, she covers it all. It's amazing video.
• 31:29
  Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for saying therapy. That was so good. Like, I felt like I almost teared up when you said that because I hadn't really thought of it that way. But they really are that, you know, it's incredible.
• 31:44
  Speaker A: When I can't cry, I will put on some songs and I know for sure I will cry. And then like, ah, there it is. It's just like the little push I need, and then it all comes flooding out.
• 31:53
  Speaker C: Power of music.
• 31:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, Power of music. Power of love. All right, guys, if you are enjoying this conversation about confidence and empowerment, you have to check out some of the coaching videos we've got in the confidence pathway of the coaching collection. Things like authentic self expression, how to fall in love with yourself, discovering your sexual being, and three steps to greater self confidence are just a few of the videos we have in there. There's also three other pathways. Body positivity, relationships, and community. And then we've got our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. And when you get the coaching collection, you get lifetime access to all of it. So if you're interested in that, go to www.gaymansbrotherhood.com for more info. All right, let's talk about the diva within. You know, Reno at the beginning you talked about it. You are your first diva. So in what ways do you channel that diva within yourself?
• 32:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, every day. Every day, my ass lit a candle before I started recording. Like, it's a whole, you know, every day, all the time. It's in the intentionality I bring into my self pleasure sessions. It's in lighting a candle before we record. It's in how I lotion my body after I get out of the shower. It's how I perform form. Like, if anyone was watching me. If you were a fly on the wall, you are lucky to be a fly on the wall while I'm having the shower. If you are a fly on the wall while I'm having a shower, you would swear that I had a live audience and, you know, was putting on my last show ever because the music is pumping and I am dancing and dropping it and like, it's a whole thing. So, you know, there's that. But you said earlier, Michael, you said like therapy, you know, Matt, you said permission, like inspiration, aspiration. And I feel like there isn't a day that goes by where I'm not tapping into that energy through those divas and through the music I listen to and then exuding it as I move through the world. It's in how I walk down the street, you know, to catch the sky train. Right. Like full diva. It's who I am, you know, it's who I am in large part. Yeah.
• 34:14
  Speaker A: Reno.
• 34:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker A: It's a song now that's like, on your playlist that you are just. That's channeling your inner diva. What's on your playlist these days?
• 34:21
  Speaker B: I would say Big Old Freak by Megan Thee Stallion. I love that song. I played it out at the gym last night. I think that's definitely one of them. Beyonce's Yaya. I mean, if y'all saw her super bowl performance, you know, when the camp hands to her on stage and she's on the mic and she's like, 1, 2, 3, 4. And the hair and the. It's a whole thing. Oh, my God. And I remember the first time I heard that song before I'd even seen the super bowl performance. And the way she blends, like, so many different genres and styles of music into this one song, and it's just a beast. I love putting that song on. Nothing will, like, move me more quickly than that track, I would say as well.
• 35:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful. Long enough to listen the Megan. I don't know, the Megan Stalin song.
• 35:17
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:18
  Speaker A: Matt, how do you channel your inner diva?
• 35:21
  Speaker C: I was giggling with what Reno was saying, because I'm so the same. That's. That's the. That's my time to perform. And my neighbor, my bathroom literally hits his bathroom. And we are both singers, and so we always joke about, oh, I'm going on. I'm going on stage now.
• 35:37
  Speaker B: That's so cute.
• 35:38
  Speaker C: I love performing in the shower and singing and belting it out. It's kind of like a safe space to just kind of let go. So that's definitely one way. I don't listen to a ton of diva music, though, now that I think about it. But I love, like, dance for you is one of the songs that I was singing. Beyonce. Something about Beyonce's music, she brings that part out, like, more than any other diva. There's just something so, like, strong about the way that she is. Like, something. Yeah, it's interesting. But yeah, I love that song. And then probably I'm. I'm like a high maintenance person because I. I'm very picky with food. I'm very, very picky with my body. What I put in my body, what I. There's just that part of me, and I think that's, you know, and I'm proud of that, actually, because I have extremely high standards for. For what I eat, what I consume, who I share my body with, like, these sorts of things. And I think those really are kind of that diva part in me.
• 36:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 36:31
  Speaker C: And then probably like self expression, like coming on here, sharing my voice, like, and, you know, obviously the. The story of. Of hardship and just what I've been through and then, you know, kind of breaking through. Still breaking through and, you know, continuing to share myself and bring myself forward. And yeah, I think those are kind of the main ones that stand out. I can't think of. I think I'm coming into this more. Like, that's been a big thing for me, is around, like, connecting with my feminine and connecting with that inner feminine strength within me. I think I have a very strong masculine strength, but I'm learning how to, like, bring more of that feminine strength into my. So I have more balance. So, yeah, to be continued. It's still evolving.
• 37:12
  Speaker A: You're both divas. I see it. I see the diva within. I see the fire within both of you. And then I think for me, I don't want to repeat too much of what you guys said, but I think there's that reinvention piece. Cher does this really well. Madonna does this really well. Gaga has proven to be doing this really well. They stand the test of time Generation by generation. Yeah, something about that. I say this all the time on the podcast. As a Gemini, I'm very adaptable, very flexible. You can put me in a lot of different environments, and I can do pretty well. I love that. And I think that's how I channel my inner diva. Yeah, you can put me in pretty much any scenario, and I'll be okay. Like, I'll not only be okay, but I can thrive because I have a lot of that. I've built a lot of that confidence from within. So it doesn't really matter what's going on outside me. My strength comes from in here. And I think that is representative of a lot of divas out there. And, you know, I had said earlier, taking up space, that for me is a big one. You know, we come on here, we share things, we get a lot of comments. Who are you to be talking about, blah, blah, blah, who do you think you are? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'm Michael, and that's the end of the story. Sorry, I don't need to justify this further. Like, period, don't like it, move on. So that's how I shut up. My inner diva. You know how I think I handle hate haters and trolls, which is different than criticism. I think criticism is one thing when it's constructive feedback, but just people who just want to hate because they're small people. I love how divas kind of handle that, and they're kind of sassy about it, and that's great. You know, divas don't lose sleep over the opinions of people who. But don't matter. And so I try to carry that with me as well. Just try to be bold in my. In my words and remember what. Why I'm doing what I do and just focusing on. On the love and the people that out there who do matter. Right.
• 38:52
  Speaker C: I love that.
• 38:54
  Speaker A: I have a final question. Bonus question. I already asked Marino, I think, but I didn't get your answer. Matt, who is on your playlist now that you're listening to, that's giving you confidence and empowerment, like, just to anybody.
• 39:05
  Speaker C: Or does it have to be.
• 39:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, it could be anybody.
• 39:07
  Speaker C: Yeah, my playlists are so, like, I'm like, I listen to, like, Coffee House, like, acoustic singer, songwriter music. Like, I don't really listen to, like, boppity kind of pop type music very much because I listen to songs that I can sing. I love. Just love singing. But yeah, Beyonce, like I said, but she's on my playlist. I like Taylor Swift, actually. I think Taylor Swift is, like, brilliant. Like, she writes all her own music. Like, she's. She's like a complete icon. Like, it's crazy. I never used to like her, but when she released the One I Believe, or I don't know if that's the name of it, but that album where it was kind of like her bridge between teeny bopper music and like, actually coming out as like a, you know, like catering to more older people.
• 39:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:51
  Speaker B: A woman.
• 39:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, I love it. I think she's. She's got such great music.
• 39:55
  Speaker B: I love when they make that shift. Oh, it's my favorite transition we see with all the divas where, like, they go from, like, you know, teeny bopper to woman. It's just like, my favorite thing to watch.
• 40:08
  Speaker C: Oh, totally. Yeah.
• 40:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 40:10
  Speaker C: I think Folklore, that was the album that was kind of where things shifted for me. Yeah.
• 40:14
  Speaker A: For me, it was earlier. It was 1989. That was the one that I was just like things like blank space and style. That whole album, for me was just.
• 40:21
  Speaker C: Yeah, that was kind of. Maybe that's. I think that's the space between. Right. And then she transitioned to being a bit more. Yeah. Because that still had a bit of, like, teenage energy to it. Yeah.
• 40:30
  Speaker B: I'm also dying to hear you. Like, I'm dying to see. When you said dance for you, that's like one of my go to performance songs. In the shower, in my bedroom. I turn it on. Yeah. So I'm dying to see you perform and sing to that. Seriously.
• 40:47
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker B: And I left one person out and she's like my go to right now. Shout out to Erica Jane from the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. If y'all haven't heard of her, check out her music. It's kind of like slut, poppy a little bit, but, like, anyway. Oh, she was my most played artist. One of my most played artists on my Spotify. Wrapped like, I think, two years in a row. Yeah.
• 41:12
  Speaker A: I didn't say this in the beginning, but I totally forgot about Chapel Roan. They're definitely on the pathway to gay diva status for sure. And she's high up on my list of some of my top played artists.
• 41:24
  Speaker C: Though my credential for or criteria for a diva is like, it's gotta be span generations.
• 41:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 41:31
  Speaker C: I wouldn't say somebody's a diva in their first 10 years. They have to have at least 20, and then they start to become a diva. I think that's would be my criteria at least.
• 41:39
  Speaker A: I hope she gets there. I hope Chapel gets there. Because she's. So far, she's. She's nailed it, and she's. She's doing the advocacy audience, and I just love that about her.
• 41:48
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 41:49
  Speaker A: My song, though. Like, the song. I'm on repeat.
• 41:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:51
  Speaker A: I'm surprised you guys didn't mention this. Abracadabra.
• 41:54
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 41:58
  Speaker A: Gaga's back.
• 41:59
  Speaker B: We were just listening to that. Cam and I were listening to that last night, and he was saying it feels like, oh, Gaga revival.
• 42:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:07
  Speaker B: It's so good, that song.
• 42:09
  Speaker A: I can't stop it. It's just. And plus the video, of course. You know, the video's just as good, if not better. When it comes down to the gym, I, like, pause what I'm doing, and I'm like, I got to go to the little yoga studio over here. And I got in front of the mirror, and I just start dancing.
• 42:22
  Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
• 42:24
  Speaker A: So if they didn't know I was gay already at the gym, oh, that guy's gay.
• 42:28
  Speaker B: Okay, on that note, and I know we're wrapping up here, but one of my favorite things in the world to see is when I'm at the gym and, you know, these bitches are listening to, like, Gaga or Beyonce or something, and they're on the, like, Stairmaster or the treadmill or whatever, and every once in a while, you see them get, like, really into the song and a little, like, really comfortable, and they'll start, like, you know, do their thing on the treadmill, and I'm like, I love it. I see you. I see you.
• 42:57
  Speaker A: I mean, perfectly.
• 42:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's. That's my favorite thing to see, because immediately I'm like, you, my people. Yeah.
• 43:05
  Speaker A: Or if I'm on a machine and I'm sitting down, I'll start, like, grinding up on the machine.
• 43:08
  Speaker B: Yes. Literally all the time.
• 43:10
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 43:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. The world is a stage for sure. Yeah.
• 43:15
  Speaker A: All right, guys, this has been a great episode. Thank you both for joining on on this episode about divas and our love for the divas. Thank you to our viewers and listeners for sticking through the episode with us and hopefully commenting in YouTube on your favorite divas. Reminder, guys, that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also subscribe to get early access on Apple Podcasts and listen ad free and get access to episodes about two to three weeks in advance. If you are on YouTube, just go ahead and tap that thanks button to send us some love. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you in advance and we really hope to see you at the next event. Bye, guys.