Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / When Your "Mr. Perfect" Husband Makes You (The "Crazy Wife") Feel Emotionally Unprotected

Transcript

When Your "Mr. Perfect" Husband Makes You (The "Crazy Wife") Feel Emotionally Unprotected · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
• 0:09
  Today we're going to talk about when you are in a Mr. Perfect
• 0:13
  and his crazy wife dynamic, which is something that I came
• 0:16
  up with many years ago and I've written posts about and podcast
• 0:20
  about. And it makes you the quote,
• 0:23
  crazy wife feel emotionally unprotected.
• 0:27
  And a lot of women are not good at verbalizing and articulating
• 0:30
  how they feel. So they just know that they feel
• 0:32
  really bad around their husband. And often if they react in a
• 0:37
  volatile way, they assume that that's just because they're
• 0:40
  crazy and they're depressed or maybe they're borderline like
• 0:44
  they secretly fear. And you know, the guy's just
• 0:48
  perfect and he's doing what everybody would do.
• 0:51
  And if you've grown up in a dysfunctional house, then you
• 0:55
  may well not see how the man is contributing to the dynamic,
• 0:59
  even though you see it in the moment when you fight.
• 1:01
  So we'll get into that in a second after I tell you to
• 1:05
  subscribe. My most recent subscriber
• 1:08
  episode was on how Remarriage. Getting divorced and remarried
• 1:12
  gives you a totally different perspective on what it's like to
• 1:15
  be a good partner versus a good parent.
• 1:18
  Because when you remarry, you can no longer say that taking
• 1:21
  care of your own biological children is somehow you being a
• 1:24
  good partner to your second spouse.
• 1:27
  It just doesn't make any sense. So at that point, it throws into
• 1:31
  real relief how silly that idea is.
• 1:34
  And I discussed that at length in the subscriber episode, as
• 1:37
  well as over 132 or three or four subscriber episodes by now.
• 1:42
  So you should definitely be subscribing, well worth the 899
• 1:46
  a month. OK, so in a Mr. Perfect and it's
• 1:49
  crazy wife dynamic, which is something I see often, although
• 1:54
  you know you're not going to resonate with that term if
• 1:57
  you've not heard it before in my stuff.
• 2:00
  So it's kind of like a little version of the narcissist
• 2:03
  borderline dynamic. So narcissists and borderlines
• 2:05
  are drawn to each other. That's why it's so funny when
• 2:08
  guys are always like my wife's a total borderline.
• 2:10
  It's like bullshit. What do you think that means
• 2:11
  about you and I have a podcast about that extreme preoccupied
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  slash. Avoid and attachment is like a
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  little version, or it is really the narcissist, borderline
• 2:22
  dynamic. So anyway, you could listen to
• 2:25
  that. But in this it's like the guy is
• 2:27
  like so great. He like makes a lot of money,
• 2:30
  he's a good dad. And for some reason though, she
• 2:33
  always has a problem with him and nobody else in his life has
• 2:37
  a problem with him. Well, of course, because nobody
• 2:39
  really has problems with people who are not severely disordered,
• 2:43
  You know, like most people can have a job and friends and all
• 2:46
  sorts of shit, but their stuff, whatever their stuff is, comes
• 2:50
  out with the intimate partner. I mean, that's how people are
• 2:53
  because that's who triggers you. So what are these kinds of
• 2:56
  behaviors that the guy does? And the woman frequently feels
• 3:00
  like he doesn't really love her, even though he says I love you,
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  He doesn't act like he really loves her in her mind.
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  But then he can convince her, and again, he's not trying to
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  quote gaslight her. There's no gaslighting in usual
• 3:13
  relationships, even by narcissists.
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  You know, narcissists are just people, and borderline
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  personality disorder just means you were a sensitive child
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  raised in an invalidating home. And these are all human beings,
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  and most human beings that are not actual psychopaths or
• 3:30
  sociopaths, which neither narcissists nor borderlines are.
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  They don't try to like, wake up and say, how am I going to fuck
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  with someone today? I mean, that just literally is
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  crazy to think and it doesn't happen.
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  So the guy in all of these things that I'm going to
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  describe, he is not trying to gaslight her.
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  She may say that. And of course that makes her
• 3:51
  sound even quote crazier, because he knows he's not trying
• 3:55
  to do anything. Anything that he does is
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  completely subconscious and it's from how he grew up.
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  Seeing a parent treat another parent as the stuff that she
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  does comes from that same template.
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  But what kind of behaviors do these guys engage in that really
• 4:09
  do make the women feel emotionally unprotected, right?
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  So a couple are, for example, teasing.
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  So the guy will tease her. She's so sensitive, but for some
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  reason, and he'll probably do this with the kids too, he still
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  teases her about things that she's sensitive about, but he's
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  always quote just kidding. And she's so sensitive and she
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  feels completely emotionally unsafe around him because he
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  makes fun of her. And the way that he makes fun of
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  her isn't, like, particularly horrible.
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  But she's literally told him that she doesn't like it and he
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  still does it. He says that's what a
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  relationship should be, is that we can joke around with each
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  other Again, He's not trying to gaslight her.
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  From his perspective, he's an avoidant attachment person that
• 4:54
  feels she tries to be too close, that's uncomfortable to him.
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  And so he's trying to push away. And he can't do that
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  consciously. Sometimes he does, He says.
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  Like, I need my space together too much.
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  I need to go be able to live my life.
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  You know, other women can stay alone.
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  Like, why? What's wrong with you?
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  Why do you get so upset? You know?
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  But sometimes it's subconscious where he's just trying to push
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  away, even in just the moment. So a good way to push away is to
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  make her upset, which he says, you know, swears up and down he
• 5:25
  doesn't want to do and he truly doesn't.
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  He would like if she were, he thinks he would.
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  He wouldn't actually be attracted to another avoidant,
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  but he thinks he would be attracted to a woman who was
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  just chill and laid back and loved.
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  You know them just joshing each other and making fun of each
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  other all the time. In reality, both of these
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  people, Mr. Perfect Slash avoided and his crazy wife Slash
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  the preoccupied woman. They both would only be
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  attracted to each other, at least until they get more
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  mentally healthy and they recognize what they're doing.
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  Because that is, what they both saw growing up was one partner,
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  one parent rather the pursuer and one the distancer.
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  So that's what makes sense to them and that's what confirms
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  their way of viewing the world. He feels that women are
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  intrusive and difficult and can't live with him, can't live
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  without him. And she thinks that you know,
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  you just have to pine and pine for your divine true love.
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  And hopefully, if you're you know, good enough and close
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  enough and stay around long enough, then the avoidant man,
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  the man who never wanted to commit, will will turn around
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  and be the loving partner that you always wish you could turn a
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  caregiver into in terms of being an attentive and responsive
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  caregiver. So go back to my attachment
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  style podcast. If this stuff confuses you, you
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  have to then go back and learn more about preoccupied and avoid
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  an attachment. But anyway, so teasing is a big
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  one. Then there's basically allying
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  with other people. So this can come out in
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  different ways. So for example, the guy can
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  always take the kids side over the mom and like roll his eyes
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  and kind of back like she's being crazy.
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  And and this doesn't mean like she's like like smacking the kid
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  out of anger and she's like is like beating the child and he
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  takes the child away to really protect the child.
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  Obviously do that, you know, of course, and then, you know,
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  reconsider remaining there. But I'm talking about a
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  situation where it's like basically a battle of wills.
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  He will always side with the child and find more validity in
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  the child's perspective and basically embarrass the mother
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  by siding with the child, embarrass his wife, that is.
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  Also, it can happen in the friend group.
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  So this dynamic, this couple with this dynamic does very
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  poorly out with friends because he'll do things like repeat what
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  she says, like she'll be trying to say something like like to
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  the side to him and he'll like repeat it to the group so that
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  everybody can kind of laugh about it or interrogate it.
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  So she'll say, oh, I think I want to go home soon and he'll
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  be like, what was that? You're not having fun.
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  And again, he's not doing it expressly to humiliate her on a
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  conscious level. That's not why he's doing it.
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  But he in that moment feels resentful that yet again, she
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  wants to take him away from the fun.
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  That's how he sees her as the death of all fun and always
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  trying to just get him alone. And it's super uncomfortable for
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  him. So then he wants to kind of use
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  the friend group almost to be like, Oh no, you should stay.
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  You really want to go home, like that sort of thing.
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  And of course that makes her feel unprotected because she was
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  trying to talk to him as a couple, like just within the
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  couple, and he's turning it outward to everybody else, thus
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  showing that anything that she says to him is going to go into
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  public. So that's obviously something
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  that feels embarrassing and it feels emotionally unsafe to be
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  with somebody who's just going to kind of tell everybody what
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  you say. And sometimes he tells the
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  friend group stuff that she said in confidence and then later
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  says he has no idea that she wouldn't have wanted that share.
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  Now on some level, if it was a multiple choice test and he got
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  $1,000,000 for the right answer, he might be able to know that
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  she didn't want to share. But in the moment, again, he
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  feels subconsciously motivated to push away from her and
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  basically ally with anybody else.
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  And this is because intimacy feels difficult for him.
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  He was raised seeing a family where there was not a lot of
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  intimacy between the parents. Next one.
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  So these guys really do invalidate the woman's feelings
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  in terms of if she thinks she's depressed, for example, these
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  guys will be like, you're not depressed.
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  You just sit around the house too much, you know?
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  Or yeah, you're so depressed, but, you know, you went out with
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  your friend the other week. So how depressed are you?
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  Or I'm depressed too. You know what?
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  Then I'm depressed. But I still go to work every
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  day, you know, that sort of thing.
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  Or if she has like a health on a real a medical Of course,
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  depression's a medical health issue, but you know what I mean?
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  Even if she has, like, I don't know, breaks her leg, you know,
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  like, he'll usually say, well, you know, yes, he's empathic in
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  theory, but you know, I mean, she could still do stuff.
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  And of course, I wouldn't really have to stay home from work or
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  anything. If I had a broken leg, you know,
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  I'd be fine and blah blah, blah. So minimizes her difficulties.
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  And this also, of course, makes her feel emotionally unsafe,
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  because he's literally invalidating how she feels and
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  telling her that she's crazy. Now, a woman who's drawn to a
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  man that does this, usually, this was done, again, in her
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  family of origin, either between parents or to her by one parent.
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  So she could have. But a teenager saying to her
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  mother, I'm really depressed. And the mother's like, yeah,
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  well, who isn't, you know, and then just walked out of the room
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  and so that, of course, you get married to the same kind of
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  thing. Or the mother was laying around
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  on the couch with a bottle and instead of the father thinking
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  that she is an alcoholic who needs treatment, saying, yeah,
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  mom's lazy, you know, so if you see somebody get invalidated as
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  a child, or if you yourself are, then you're drawn instinctively
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  to somebody who does this. And the reason he's doing this
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  is, again, he does not want the intimacy of having to be in a
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  caretaker role. He doesn't want to feel that
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  she's struggling because then he might feel guilty if he's not
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  there for her. He doesn't want to be quote
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  there for her. He doesn't want her to invade
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  anymore of his emotional space. So then he pushes it away.
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  Now, sometimes these guys can be really good with physical
• 11:18
  problems that are temporary. Like she has the flu, He can
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  really understand she has the flu.
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  But something like chronic depression, he just, you know,
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  and he too has, by the way, been trained to, you know, be a
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  textbook achiever and to squelch down any sort of vulnerability
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  and just do anything anyway. So if she can't, if she doesn't
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  have the physical or mental ability to do that because she's
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  struggling with a disorder, then he feels that she's
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  bullshitting. He genuinely feels like she's
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  lying, you know, Oh, she's so depressed.
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  But yet she had a phone call with her mom, you know, so like
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  the the littlest thing. And as I've discussed, women
• 11:57
  have a typical depression more frequently, and with a typical
• 12:00
  depression and have a podcast on that, your mood does increase.
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  It gets better temporarily in response to positive events, So
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  this is a real classic. One that I see is that the woman
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  struggles with a typical depression, but he points out
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  times that she's been happy and says basically implies that
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  she's using her depression as an excuse, when in reality that is
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  the nature of the depression. For a few minutes, for a few
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  hours, she can be on adrenaline and her mood will lift, but then
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  she crashes back down OK. And so also another big one is
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  in the early stages of having a baby, the woman I just actually
• 12:39
  saw and I shared on my Facebook profile.
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  So you guys should all follow me on Facebook.
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  Of course. I'm sure most of you do about
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  protected sleep being necessary for women, especially if they
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  have postpartum depression or anxiety.
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  And how. And I I knew this shit like
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  instinctively when I had my babies.
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  Like I always had my husband helping until the third one who
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  Co slept. So then I could nurse kind of in
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  the middle of the night without waking up.
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  But as a first time mom, I was like way too anxious to keep the
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  baby in the room or to keep the baby in the bed, breast sleeping
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  they call it. And so I wanted the baby in the
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  crib and then the waking up all the time.
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  After about a week of that, I really felt like I was going to
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  go out of my mind. And so my husband did at least
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  some of the night feedings, which at that point, that was
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  already 13 years ago. That was my then husband.
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  That was big deal, you know, A lot of women's husband wouldn't
• 13:36
  do it at all. And so this article was talking
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  about how protected sleep. Having at least a four to six
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  hour window where you do not have the monitor in the room and
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  cannot be woken is super important for women, especially
• 13:49
  if they're struggling with postpartum depression or anxiety
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  because sleep is so reparative for mental health and so
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  protective for mental health. And if you don't get your sleep,
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  it basically can spin you into a really crazy feeling stage.
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  And most women know that, you know, from times where they've
• 14:06
  had to go without sleep. And if you're already somebody
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  who struggles with mental health issues, it can really push you
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  over the edge, right? And of course, there were those
• 14:16
  horrible stories about women struggling with postpartum who,
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  you know, like, did terrible things to themselves and their
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  kids. And, you know, lack of sleep
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  really contributes to the likelihood of that.
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  And people are starting to realize that more now, you know.
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  And so, but the more avoidant guys will be like, yeah, well, I
• 14:35
  have a job, so you know, you're going to do this.
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  God knows you don't do much during the day with the baby.
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  Look at this house looks like a fucking mess, you know?
• 14:42
  So I guess you're getting up at night and you can nap when the
• 14:46
  baby naps. Now some of the Mr. Perfect guys
• 14:49
  will in fact get up with the baby and all of that.
• 14:53
  But if she then is still tired because of course she's nursing
• 14:57
  or she's sleeping very, you know, badly even when she has a
• 15:01
  protected sleep and the hormones are racing and women just need
• 15:04
  more sleep than men, look that up.
• 15:06
  That's scientific fact. But then he will be like, what's
• 15:10
  wrong with you? I did the feeding last night,
• 15:12
  you know, why are you tired? So basically the the theme here
• 15:16
  is it's a lot of invalidation and not really understanding
• 15:21
  what it is to be an emotional partner.
• 15:24
  And the woman who is the preoccupied attachment woman
• 15:26
  here acts crazy in response to this.
• 15:29
  She follows him around and she tells him that he's not nice and
• 15:32
  that he doesn't really love her. And you know, people don't even
• 15:34
  know how he acts. And maybe this is because of his
• 15:36
  childhood and you know, there's just something that's missing
• 15:39
  and why can't he just be nice and, you know, just follows him
• 15:42
  around, pursuer distancer style, her being the pursuer.
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  And but then when she stops doing that, she feels
• 15:49
  embarrassed about her behavior and feels like, of course, you
• 15:53
  know, maybe she is the problem, the sole problem, as she's
• 15:56
  always feared because she grew up, you know, with low self
• 16:00
  esteem. And everybody around them thinks
• 16:02
  he's just a great guy and just the nicest guy because they
• 16:07
  don't see a videotape of how cold he can be.
• 16:10
  And when these couples come in, the woman is very anxious always
• 16:14
  that I will side with the husband.
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  You know, she's very, very anxious that I will just think
• 16:19
  that she's a lunatic and completely side with him.
• 16:22
  And he's just this great guy that makes good money and is an
• 16:25
  involved father and an extrovert and has all these friends.
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  And meanwhile, she's somebody who struggles and has always had
• 16:30
  depression or anxiety and is an introvert or maybe doesn't have
• 16:34
  to be an introvert. I'm just saying like isn't as
• 16:36
  classically quote perfect. And you know, of course, as we
• 16:41
  go through couples counseling, it's quite obvious.
• 16:45
  I mean, all the time, 100% of the time it's due to both
• 16:48
  people. You know, a dynamic is just
• 16:51
  that. It's a dynamic between two
• 16:53
  people and it's cocreated. And so in this sort of scenario,
• 16:57
  the man has to realize that a lot of his behavior is like kind
• 17:01
  of fucked up, you know? And unintentionally so.
• 17:04
  But a lot of it is designed to basically say I am me and you
• 17:08
  are you, and I do not want to have to deal with your shit and
• 17:11
  I do not know why you have so much shit to deal with.
• 17:14
  And that's going to make everything worse, you know?
• 17:16
  And then on her end, as she develops more confidence and and
• 17:20
  more kind of self compassion, she can understand, you know,
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  which of her behaviors are just literally designed as pursuit
• 17:29
  behaviors and which time she actually does need comfort and
• 17:32
  how to communicate a need for comfort in a more healthy and
• 17:36
  adaptive way. Even when you've not seen that.
• 17:39
  And sometimes, quite honestly, these marriages do not last
• 17:41
  after the children are older because at that point, the woman
• 17:44
  has learned to communicate more effectively.
• 17:47
  But he still just wants to do his own thing, you know, And he
• 17:50
  doesn't really like, you know, talking about feelings.
• 17:53
  And it was a lot easier for him to justify that he didn't like
• 17:57
  talking about feelings when she was screaming them at him.
• 17:59
  You know, I mean, it's pretty easy to see why then you don't
• 18:02
  want to talk about feelings. But when she learns, you know,
• 18:05
  to calm down and to say, oh, I wish that, you know, we would
• 18:08
  just hang out more and I wish that you were to be more, let's
• 18:11
  say, complimentary or whatever. And then he see it's still kind
• 18:15
  of makes him cringe and stuff and he still doesn't do it.
• 18:19
  Then, you know, sometimes she loses interest.
• 18:21
  But before that, there is, of course, a window for change.
• 18:25
  I talk about this all the time and it's when both people are
• 18:29
  motivated by external variables and still feel in love with each
• 18:32
  other. Great time to come in for
• 18:34
  counseling is when you still have young kids release kids in
• 18:36
  the house and when you still feel that there is some love
• 18:39
  between you. If it gets to the point that
• 18:42
  both people are like Jesus Christ, like we just can't get
• 18:44
  along, we're in parallel life land, then you know, then
• 18:48
  there's really kind of no point. I've seen few couples come back
• 18:52
  from that brink, but I've seen way more that are still engaged
• 18:55
  in some sort of conflict, honestly, because that means
• 18:58
  that they give a shit, you know, still enough to at least fight
• 19:01
  about it. So anyway.
• 19:04
  And that of course never means that it's a good thing to fight
• 19:06
  in front of your kids. Some people will be like, haha,
• 19:09
  I knew it, you know, I knew that fighting in front of the kids
• 19:12
  teaches them marital, Rio teaches them conflict
• 19:15
  resolution. It does not.
• 19:17
  I talk about that on myriad podcasts.
• 19:19
  That is not good. Don't do that.
• 19:21
  What I mean is that if you still even feel angry at your spouse.
• 19:25
  Not that you need to express that in front of your children
• 19:27
  ever. But if you still do, then you
• 19:29
  should get into couples counseling before you stop even
• 19:31
  feeling angry with them. All right.
• 19:33
  I hope you guys enjoyed this and I will talk to y'all soon.
• 19:36
  Have a great day.