Latest / The Third Thing / S2E19: It's Not If, It's When: Mental Health in Friendship

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S2E19: It's Not If, It's When: Mental Health in Friendship · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:05
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and voodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: And I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap.
• 0:48
  Michelle: So we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Michelle: Hi Mish.
• 0:51
  Michelle: Hi Dee.
• 0:51
  Michelle: How's it going?
• 0:53
  Michelle: Good.
• 0:54
  Michelle: I admit that I'm I'm ready for summer to wind down in the ways of routine.
• 1:03
  Michelle: Having the kiddo back in school.
• 1:05
  Michelle: She is in summer camp this week, which God bless the YMCA.
• 1:09
  Michelle: I look forward to having that be a piece of our lives that's a bit more in order.
• 1:14
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:15
  Michelle: Consistent.
• 1:16
  Danyelle: That makes sense.
• 1:18
  Danyelle: I mean the children.
• 1:19
  Danyelle: I was just talking about how it felt like summer was halfway over, and a friend was like, don't say that.
• 1:24
  Danyelle: And I was like, it's just all the same.
• 1:30
  Danyelle: But I get that.
• 1:31
  Danyelle: I get I get the loss of routine.
• 1:33
  Danyelle: I feel that.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: A lot of my clients go on vacation.
• 1:37
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:38
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:39
  Danyelle: It feels loosey-goosey.
• 1:43
  Michelle: We do get to go to Mexico next week with our friends, and I'm really looking forward to that.
• 1:48
  Michelle: This is our first like co-family trip.
• 1:51
  Michelle: Um, because they have kids and they're tailored.
• 1:54
  Michelle: Oh cute! And the girls are best friends and they're so sweet together.
• 2:01
  Michelle: Yeah, me too.
• 2:02
  Michelle: And the resort we're staying at has child care.
• 2:06
  Michelle: The best.
• 2:07
  Michelle: Bye.
• 2:08
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 2:09
  Danyelle: Love you and all of my all of my friends with kids who live in the burbs.
• 2:16
  Danyelle: Be doing that.
• 2:17
  Michelle: I've never been a like stay at a resort the whole time girly, but I'm looking forward to it.
• 2:22
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 2:23
  Michelle: Because you know who does not love an adventure?
• 2:26
  Michelle: My daughter.
• 2:27
  Michelle: In fact, loathes an adventure.
• 2:29
  Michelle: She really likes it.
• 2:30
  Michelle: One day I hope we'll help her grow into it, but that's what we're at right now.
• 2:35
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 2:36
  Michelle: How are you, my friend?
• 2:39
  Danyelle: I'm good.
• 2:40
  Michelle: Um tell the truth.
• 2:43
  Danyelle: I am.
• 2:43
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 2:44
  Danyelle: I feel good.
• 2:45
  Danyelle: I'm um I'm exhausted in my body.
• 2:48
  Danyelle: My body feels really tired.
• 2:50
  Danyelle: Um I hear it in your voice.
• 2:52
  Danyelle: Yeah, there's something happening, and that's okay.
• 2:55
  Danyelle: Everyone says your voice is like butter.
• 2:57
  Danyelle: Well, hopefully the raspy one feels as buttery.
• 3:01
  Danyelle: Smelly cat.
• 3:03
  Danyelle: Smelly cat.
• 3:05
  Danyelle: No, you sound great.
• 3:07
  Danyelle: It's because my mom's in town and she comes here and is allergic to everything.
• 3:15
  Danyelle: Oh.
• 3:16
  Danyelle: Just because, like, when you go to a new place, yeah.
• 3:19
  Danyelle: And so I was like dusting and cleaned the um, yeah, thank you.
• 3:25
  Danyelle: I cleaned the kidney, air purifier.
• 3:32
  Danyelle: And the moment I started cleaning it, I was like, put a mask on.
• 3:36
  Michelle: Oops.
• 3:37
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 3:37
  Danyelle: It was too late.
• 3:39
  Danyelle: So I've been doing a lot of like herbal things.
• 3:41
  Michelle: I thought you were gonna say, my mom, maybe this is me projecting, but I thought you were gonna say, my mom is in town, so I've been yelling.
• 3:50
  Michelle: I'm like, just me?
• 3:51
  Michelle: No, just me.
• 3:54
  Michelle: I love it.
• 3:55
  Michelle: So today you're going to lead us through a conversation around when mental health lives inside the friendship.
• 4:04
  Michelle: How does it change the relationship?
• 4:06
  Michelle: But beyond that, how do you know that it's there?
• 4:10
  Michelle: Why does that matter?
• 4:12
  Michelle: How to sit with it?
• 4:14
  Michelle: All the things.
• 4:15
  Danyelle: That part, how to sit with it.
• 4:17
  Danyelle: That's really how I'm always anchoring us places.
• 4:21
  Danyelle: I think I want to anchor us in sitting with it.
• 4:25
  Danyelle: We are taught from a very young age that every problem has a solution and that it needs to be found very quickly.
• 4:34
  Danyelle: And I think that's no different with emotions thinking about the discomfort that people feel when somebody is emoting.
• 4:46
  Danyelle: And I think it is the spectrum of emotions, not just what we think of as big as big emotions, but people who are really energetic and excited all the way to feeling sad.
• 5:02
  Danyelle: We collectively really struggle to hold the full spectrum of emotionality.
• 5:11
  Danyelle: And I I yeah, I want to anchor us in what might it feel like to sit in it for another 30 seconds.
• 5:18
  Danyelle: And I know we haven't really started talking about anything yet, but I want us to just, as we're going through this conversation, really holding that as a piece.
• 5:29
  Michelle: And I think it speaks to our generation around whether it is medication or technology that we're used to quick fixes and quick answers.
• 5:40
  Michelle: I do like that conversation around our parents' generation being undiagnosable or not being diagnosed.
• 5:47
  Michelle: We arguably have a name for everything now and would or could argue that so many of us are on a spectrum of sorts.
• 5:55
  Michelle: But there is something powerful about not needing a diagnosis.
• 5:59
  Michelle: And it's just like it used to just be, oh, that person has this personality.
• 6:04
  Michelle: Oh, they're a little bit like this.
• 6:06
  Michelle: And there was potentially, I know in many cases this is not true, but what we can take from that on the positive is the acceptance and the not needing to fix, or even considering that it's something to be fixed.
• 6:21
  Michelle: It's just that's how this person is.
• 6:23
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:25
  Danyelle: Oh, how things have changed.
• 6:28
  Danyelle: I want to start out with one in five people in the United States have some type of mental health disorder.
• 6:36
  Danyelle: That means for all of our listeners, either yourself or somebody you know is managing something with their mental health.
• 6:47
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:48
  Danyelle: And you spoke to things being diagnosed and undiagnosed, and we have so much access now that we do a lot of self-diagnosing.
• 6:57
  Danyelle: I don't really know anybody who isn't neurodivergent in some kind of way, who isn't, you know, neurospicy, as you say.
• 7:05
  Danyelle: Love it.
• 7:06
  Danyelle: Love neurospicy.
• 7:07
  Danyelle: It's a good, it's such a good word.
• 7:09
  Danyelle: Um, somebody who has anxiety about depression or symptoms of.
• 7:18
  Danyelle: And it it does feel like it is a lot more present in this moment, specifically in a more clinical way, because of technology, because of the way information is shared.
• 7:30
  Danyelle: Um we're able to pinpoint, draw lines in in a way that I that I feel like makes it more present.
• 7:41
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 7:42
  Michelle: I think one of the ones that's been circling the interwebs is the ADHD diagnosis.
• 7:47
  Michelle: And so many of the list do I resonate with.
• 7:50
  Michelle: And I know you're always like, maybe.
• 7:52
  Michelle: Um, but even just that idea attention deficit, it's like when you have a thing dinging at you literally every five seconds in different on your phone, on your computer, you've got email, you've got Slack, etc., how hard it is to sit and focus.
• 8:07
  Michelle: And so that sort of brings us full circle to introducing this idea of sitting with something, not needing to fix, not needing to give everything your immediate attention, and being mindful about where you put your energy.
• 8:20
  Michelle: Bit of an offshoot, but yeah, just to say that.
• 8:24
  Danyelle: Um, you talked a little bit about resonating with the the ADHD checklist.
• 8:31
  Danyelle: I am about four years in, three years in to an adult ADHD diagnosis.
• 8:38
  Danyelle: And wow, did it change my life?
• 8:40
  Danyelle: I'm curious to hear what your relationship to mental health is, you know, generally in the zeitgeist, but like also for yourself and like how you think about mental health as a spectrum, seeing family members, being in relationships, just like being a human in this moment.
• 9:00
  Danyelle: I'm curious, yeah, just your thoughts around like how do you locate yourself to mental health?
• 9:09
  Danyelle: And yeah, how has it shown up in our relationship from your perspective?
• 9:14
  Michelle: Love that.
• 9:15
  Michelle: I it I mean, it's a big question.
• 9:18
  Michelle: So let me let me orient my body in the question.
• 9:23
  Michelle: Um we all are experiencing mental health and emotions, and I think it's if you are lucky later in life, you do start to gain the language to understand what's happening in your brain or in the brains of others, you can build up that empathy muscle.
• 9:40
  Michelle: But for me, it was starting to go to therapy in my late 20s, was when I opened the door to how trauma within early childhood can then impact the way that you act or make decisions moving forward, understanding parts.
• 9:59
  Michelle: Um, it gave me not just language, but more of an understanding of how to interact with folks andor grace to offer myself for what I've been through.
• 10:11
  Michelle: And I do think it's really powerful.
• 10:14
  Michelle: I did mention that maybe we're over-diagnosed or over-medicated or whatever it is, but I do think that having that knowledge and understanding can then give you the tools for how to communicate more effectively with the people that you love, whether it's your parents or your friends.
• 10:31
  Michelle: Um I think because my parents were both very hard workers, I saw that work ethic and it was definitely instilled in me this idea of work hard to get what you want.
• 10:44
  Michelle: And it's only really recently that I've even sort of understood this idea of maybe you don't have to work so hard.
• 10:52
  Michelle: Maybe there can be ease in success or comfort.
• 10:56
  Michelle: Having said that, the reason I bring that up is what goes with that is this mentality of pull yourself up by your bootstraps, that there's always a solution that you can work or literally muscle your way through anything as opposed to meet it with rest or softness or understanding your compassion.
• 11:16
  Michelle: And so I know that in many of my earlier friendships when I experienced folks who were having a hard time, because through points in my life I've been able to sort of snap myself out of it, I was like, why don't you just blank go do something you love, ask for help, talk it out with a friend, eat a good meal.
• 11:40
  Michelle: Like talk, I mean, we could have a whole other episode on healing through food or self-harming through food.
• 11:47
  Michelle: So going back to your questions, going back to your question about how I relate to mental health, I think that in some ways earlier in my life, it was a little more damaging that I inadvertently didn't have as much compassion.
• 12:02
  Michelle: I really did want to fix or offer advice because my own experience had been I feel safer when other people are happy and doing well.
• 12:11
  Michelle: And so if you are sad, if you're experiencing that range of emotion, I don't feel comfortable.
• 12:16
  Michelle: And so it's less about me offering you kindness or healing and more about making sure that I feel safe.
• 12:23
  Michelle: So I'm sure you experience that.
• 12:25
  Michelle: And I'm I'm open to hearing how that landed for you.
• 12:29
  Michelle: But I know that not only through therapy, but also through becoming a life coach and offering tools to others, this idea of managing your own nervous system first as a priority allows you to let the people that you love go through whatever they're going through.
• 12:48
  Michelle: And I want to say, in almost every circumstance, unless it's your own child who needs you, it just is not your job to solve for them.
• 12:57
  Michelle: You get to just, if you have the capacity, hold space.
• 13:01
  Michelle: You can meet them with curiosity, you can ask questions, but all things considered, you don't need to fix anyone.
• 13:08
  Michelle: And so that's been more new.
• 13:10
  Michelle: And before I pass it back to you, I do just want to say like it's a work in progress because there is still that glitch or that innate or learned feeling.
• 13:22
  Michelle: Like I can help you though, if I could just um and giving myself grace for that, but also not acting immediately from that place.
• 13:37
  Michelle: Yeah, I appreciate all of that.
• 13:41
  Michelle: Okay, so that was an awful.
• 13:44
  Michelle: I'm curious your relationship with mental health and specifically through the lens of friendship and then our friendship in particular.
• 13:53
  Danyelle: Yeah, I so appreciate all that you shared.
• 13:56
  Danyelle: And I'm in this moment just reflecting on how much growth there has been because we grow and we evolve as we say.
• 14:06
  Danyelle: Um but it is, it's like, yeah, like we all have learned these different things and then internalized them.
• 14:13
  Danyelle: My parents put my brother and I in therapy when I was six, so he was nine.
• 14:18
  Danyelle: So my relationship to mental health has been one that feels very present.
• 14:24
  Danyelle: It's just like fluid.
• 14:26
  Danyelle: You're having a problem, go to therapy.
• 14:29
  Danyelle: Um, there's it's always been um, I don't know, like a piece of my identity.
• 14:36
  Danyelle: And I will say definitely within my family history.
• 14:40
  Danyelle: So I do feel like my relationship to mental health has been one of like feeling very knowledgeable, feeling very like wanting to understand and learn.
• 14:51
  Danyelle: Obviously, I became a therapist.
• 14:54
  Danyelle: I started as a social worker working with folks who were really struggling across the mental health spectrum.
• 15:01
  Danyelle: And I feel like my relationship now to mental health is very much it's an identity, right?
• 15:10
  Danyelle: The diagnosis that I have, you know, ebb and flow, but my ADHP isn't gonna go away.
• 15:16
  Danyelle: And it does explain the way that my brain works and can be really helpful to allow people to meet me there versus most of my life and kind of what you were speaking to, trying to like push through or get to this place that was different, trying to like fix myself.
• 15:38
  Danyelle: And I would say up until leaving the more like nine to five world, I did have a lot of tricks and hacks to keep me in line.
• 15:48
  Danyelle: And I feel like like many millennials, you we're just burnt out, and it's harder to access some of those skills that were learned because our world doesn't necessarily cater to the neurospices.
• 16:03
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 16:04
  Michelle: I mean, I want to interject, and I always want to keep reminding myself and reminding our listeners that this idea of a nine to five and how far you can push a body was really built upon slavery and how far you can push a human being to be productive.
• 16:22
  Michelle: And our education system was also built around that, making and churning out factory workers, and here's your lunch bell, and pieces and parts of that have evolved, but we are still largely from education to policing operating on this like, how can you push yourself to the brink?
• 16:40
  Michelle: It's not how do you be creative, how do you thrive?
• 16:44
  Michelle: Not to mention it's built off of the bodies of men primarily, not the 30-day cycle, hormonal cycle of women and when you find yourself most energetic or you need the most rest to regenerate.
• 16:58
  Michelle: And so I think that there's a mental health part there as well.
• 17:02
  Michelle: And we talk a lot about indigenous populations and the ways in which they nurture mental health or women or healers or artists in their community, where it's sort of like, oh, this is the one who's very spiritual and will give us this guidance and we'll feed them and they will give us love and that it's the community that uplifts this variety.
• 17:26
  Michelle: And we all cherish that.
• 17:28
  Michelle: We want art in our homes, we want to listen to music that moves us and hear it on the streets, and yet we don't want to allow our society to make space for the ways in which that person is different.
• 17:42
  Danyelle: Yeah, it's it's a beautiful point.
• 17:44
  Danyelle: What's coming up for me as you say that is Ireland recently made permanent guaranteed income for artists.
• 17:54
  Danyelle: They did a, I believe it was a two-year program.
• 17:57
  Michelle: The capitalist in me was like, but how do they prove they're artists?
• 18:02
  Michelle: It's so broken.
• 18:03
  Michelle: I'm so sorry.
• 18:04
  Michelle: I wish that wasn't my first thought, but I'm just I want to be honest because but I think that is really important why we're centering mental health.
• 18:12
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 18:13
  Danyelle: Because all of this was internalized.
• 18:16
  Danyelle: And, you know, well, okay.
• 18:19
  Michelle: So you know we just became a political podcast.
• 18:23
  Michelle: Welcome.
• 18:24
  Michelle: We've been, we've been.
• 18:25
  Danyelle: We've been subliminal messages.
• 18:29
  Danyelle: Um, but yeah, it was really interesting to me just hearing about it.
• 18:33
  Danyelle: They I believe it was a two-year pilot program, and the return on investment was so much, and not just in what was made, but also people's ability to go out and engage because they were being taken care of, they were doing their work in this really specific way.
• 18:54
  Danyelle: And so we talked about living under a capitalist society.
• 18:57
  Danyelle: Yeah, if you give people, if you meet their basic needs, they're going to engage in society in a more active way because they're not stressed out, they're not struggling, they're not marginalized.
• 19:10
  Danyelle: Correct.
• 19:11
  Danyelle: And so, as you're saying this, I am thinking about the parallels between systems of oppression and mental health.
• 19:18
  Danyelle: Adrienne Marie Brown, who is uh author that I adore, I was listening to something that they had said recently about the dis-ease in my body is because of the systems.
• 19:32
  Danyelle: It's not me, right?
• 19:34
  Danyelle: It's not because I can't or I'm not strong enough.
• 19:38
  Danyelle: And I will say around 2019, when I was really struggling, my body in general was really struggling after many, many years of pushing myself and going the extra mile and being a worker bee, I was like, I'm broken.
• 19:57
  Danyelle: I there's something wrong with me.
• 19:59
  Danyelle: Why can't I remember anymore?
• 20:01
  Danyelle: Why can't I stay up late and power through or stay up late and then get up in the morning and have a full day?
• 20:08
  Danyelle: Why is my body responding in this way?
• 20:11
  Danyelle: That felt very new.
• 20:12
  Danyelle: And um, I think it is important to say the external does have a deep impact.
• 20:19
  Danyelle: And what might one's life be like if you didn't have to worry about paying rent and you had your food paid for and you could focus on the things that make you really happy versus you know selling your labor to stay out of poverty.
• 20:37
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:38
  Michelle: My my brain's spinning right now with all the potential of conversation, but I want to like latch on to this idea of the ways in which we embody capitalism.
• 20:50
  Michelle: And I think that I bought in pretty heavily, I would say, to like girl bossing and wanting to rise the corporate ladder and getting my MBA.
• 21:01
  Michelle: And there's still part of that in me.
• 21:04
  Michelle: And I try and find ways to incorporate that with the part of me that's also artistic and soft and allow space for both.
• 21:12
  Michelle: And what I will say is we've talked before about time, for instance, and how I don't, I hate putting words in your mouth or like how you connect that to mental health, but like mental and physical health and that that connection of being able to be exactly here at this time.
• 21:31
  Michelle: And I think that that's one of the things that plays a role in our friendship, not just on a day-to-day basis, but on a like, I'm actually listening to my body and it's saying you need to stay in bed today.
• 21:41
  Michelle: And as a person with anxious attachment, with a person connected to time and capitalism, who has very limited time to share, that's something that can come between us because I'm taking that as either you don't respect me or you don't care enough about seeing me to make this a priority, when really when you start to look At the impact of chronic illness, of mental health.
• 22:03
  Michelle: Actually, it's such a gift to be able to give a friend or someone you love the gift of believing them and letting them listen to their body and still feel safe and like they're not going to lose you as a friend because they missed an event or missed a date.
• 22:19
  Danyelle: So powerful.
• 22:20
  Danyelle: So, so powerful.
• 22:22
  Michelle: I think we mentioned this in a previous episode or linked it in the show notes, but Tema Akun's characteristics of white supremacy is really relevant.
• 22:31
  Michelle: And this is where I'm pulling this idea of connection to time or certain pieces of our culture that are so ingrained in our culture, but that are rooted in white supremacy.
• 22:41
  Michelle: So not just time, but also teamwork.
• 22:44
  Michelle: There was this big debate about who, or I mean it's ongoing about who's the better musician.
• 22:50
  Michelle: Is it Taylor Swift or Beyonce?
• 22:52
  Michelle: And some of the big arguments is Taylor Swift writes all of her own music alone.
• 22:57
  Michelle: And look at Beyoncé's music and how many collaborators there are.
• 23:01
  Michelle: And it's like, since when is collaborating not a good thing?
• 23:05
  Michelle: Why are we docking somebody's talent because they shared in the workload?
• 23:11
  Michelle: And that's very also uniquely American that to do something alone is upheld as being superior.
• 23:21
  Michelle: And I think that's really important.
• 23:23
  Michelle: As we're talking about mental health, I keep trying to like bring us back to that because it's so, I mean, it just permeates all of these conversations is this idea of needing support and that mental health can be so much better when you are allowed to take care of yourself, whether that means financially you're supported or a day that I have a massive migraine and I need someone to help me watch my kid, or whatever it is, that having community understanding and acceptance of that can make all the difference.
• 23:59
  Michelle: And it starts with friendship.
• 24:00
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 24:01
  Danyelle: I think this is a good segue to talk about how mental health has lived within our friendship.
• 24:08
  Danyelle: And I'm thinking about we talked about in our Life Stages episode, me leaving Redwood.
• 24:18
  Danyelle: And at the time, not explicitly knowing all of the details, but knowing that I wasn't there anymore.
• 24:25
  Danyelle: High school.
• 24:26
  Danyelle: Yes, yes.
• 24:27
  Danyelle: When I um and so it's interesting because as I was prepping for this, for this episode, I was like, oh, it's lived within our friendship literally forever since the beginning.
• 24:39
  Danyelle: Um and it's had a lot of different um versions or flavors or um uh what's the word?
• 24:52
  Danyelle: Like um iterations, like when it's more present or not.
• 24:57
  Danyelle: Oh um, like I guess I'd just say that.
• 25:02
  Danyelle: That's fine.
• 25:03
  Danyelle: And then, you know, as I think about it, yes, it's been there for all of this time, but it's hasn't always lived present.
• 25:11
  Danyelle: At the forefront.
• 25:12
  Danyelle: At the forefront.
• 25:13
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 25:14
  Michelle: Yeah, yeah, gotcha, boo.
• 25:16
  Danyelle: Um, it hasn't always been at the forefront, right?
• 25:19
  Danyelle: It's always been a thread, but not necessarily something that is centered.
• 25:24
  Danyelle: Center.
• 25:25
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 25:25
  Danyelle: And I will say definitely over the last, I would say six to ten years, um, mental health has been more centered in my life.
• 25:34
  Danyelle: It's been something I cover significantly less.
• 25:37
  Danyelle: And so I think it does just inherently show up more.
• 25:41
  Danyelle: And as you spoke to earlier, you have done work to hold it in ways that allow me to bring it.
• 25:52
  Danyelle: And I think as recently as this year, having to have conversations around chronic illness and mental health because we work together and having to ask for that grace because it's not if I don't feel well, it's just when I don't feel well.
• 26:10
  Danyelle: And it is scary to have to ask for help.
• 26:15
  Danyelle: It's scary to have to say, I'm late, I can't come today.
• 26:18
  Danyelle: I need to sleep, I need to rest.
• 26:21
  Danyelle: And some of that is, you know, like that's like residual, right?
• 26:25
  Danyelle: From past experiences, conversations.
• 26:29
  Danyelle: And one of the things that I really appreciate about my therapist is she can see things that I sometimes miss.
• 26:36
  Danyelle: And recently she said, she's like, I think Michelle could hold it.
• 26:40
  Danyelle: Um, like, what might it feel like?
• 26:43
  Danyelle: And I did.
• 26:44
  Danyelle: I got to, you know, really share some um deeper pieces of myself with you and felt very held and very cared for and very listened to.
• 26:54
  Danyelle: And I don't think about like judgment within our friendship as much as it's more like I can't always be who I want to be in the friendship, and so there's that that I hold.
• 27:13
  Danyelle: And am I letting you down?
• 27:15
  Danyelle: Am I you know um not being able to be as strong or as easy?
• 27:22
  Danyelle: Yeah, and so I yeah, I think that's kind of yeah, that's where I am.
• 27:31
  Michelle: I think the what so many thoughts.
• 27:36
  Michelle: This conversation's really big.
• 27:39
  Michelle: It's so big.
• 27:40
  Michelle: Um what's coming up for me is feeling gratitude for the depths of yourself with which you've shared.
• 27:51
  Michelle: And I think when you get to a place in your healing journey or learning where you can hold space for somebody, then it keeps unlocking new parts of them that you get to know.
• 28:01
  Michelle: And we have talked about the life stages of our friendship, but I think there's the like, where do we live and who are we dating and what do we do for work layer?
• 28:09
  Michelle: And then there's the mental, emotional, and then spiritual layers that we both are kind of on, you know, we'll we'll meet each other and be on different levels from.
• 28:20
  Michelle: But I think to know any human being more fully and to be the kind of person that can allow them to be fully themselves is so special.
• 28:30
  Michelle: And then you can see what comes out of that.
• 28:33
  Michelle: And more practically speaking, going back to this idea of this idea of it's not if I'll be sick and need time or rest, it's when is because that honesty now exists and that knowing, we can then build for that.
• 28:49
  Michelle: And we can say, right now, in terms of our working relationship, it can be like, let's try and find out this much in advance, or I will have this backup ready to go, or this is what we'll say to people if there needs to be a break.
• 29:05
  Michelle: And that way we're both collaborating and you aren't sitting alone with it.
• 29:09
  Danyelle: Oh, I feel like I might cry.
• 29:12
  Michelle: You're allowed to, I can hold it.
• 29:16
  Michelle: I love you so much.
• 29:17
  Michelle: Some people pay extra for that.
• 29:21
  Danyelle: Um yeah, and I, you know, we talk so much about attachment style here at the third thing.
• 29:29
  Danyelle: Um, and that is built on secure attachment, right?
• 29:33
  Danyelle: I feel safe to say when, not if, or not anything.
• 29:40
  Michelle: And not say it at all, and then we're both, and then I'm surprised when it comes up and take it personally or what have you.
• 29:47
  Danyelle: And then there's something else living within the friendship that's not even the thing, which we've talked a lot about, right?
• 29:54
  Danyelle: Oftentimes it's not the thing.
• 29:57
  Danyelle: And when we can be honest, when we feel like our friendships can hold these parts of our identity, we're able to meet each other in such a more robust way.
• 30:11
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:12
  Danyelle: And I do really feel like there's still shame that comes up, there's still discomfort that comes up, I still feel guilty, I still feel like I've let you down.
• 30:26
  Danyelle: And there are these ways that we get to like um move that along because it's not the main point.
• 30:37
  Michelle: Yeah, and it's testing, is that still true?
• 30:40
  Michelle: Am I letting her down?
• 30:42
  Michelle: And because we've invested so much in this relationship, we get to play with the boundaries and see how it lands.
• 30:49
  Michelle: And I do think it's important to say too that not just with you, but with other friends as well.
• 30:54
  Michelle: I know I mentioned it earlier that I haven't always been the heeled, well-rounded person you see before you today.
• 31:01
  Michelle: And there's a friend in college in particular who I'm thinking of who would have these really dark days where she would go out into the quad and put her headphones on.
• 31:11
  Michelle: And oh gosh, I want to say it was maybe a CD player those days, like a walkman or something.
• 31:18
  Michelle: And I don't think she knew that depression was in the mix, or at least didn't share it, or we didn't have the language for that.
• 31:26
  Michelle: Um, very millennial coded, but for us, we just called her emo.
• 31:32
  Michelle: And um I didn't understand, and I took it personally because this person who our friendship was built off of listening to comedy together and laughing our asses off and spending all this time together.
• 31:46
  Michelle: Then all of a sudden, they need all of this space.
• 31:49
  Michelle: And for someone with anxious attachment who's looking for proof that they're too much, that they're overwhelming, that they're somehow inherently unlovable, is now met with someone who they consider one of their best friends who doesn't want to spend time with them or who's really sad and nothing you do can pull them out of it.
• 32:06
  Michelle: I didn't know how to show up for them.
• 32:09
  Michelle: And I mean, tragically, constantly offering advice that's not being requested or needed or asked for.
• 32:18
  Michelle: And and I don't think I was a good friend to her in that way.
• 32:23
  Michelle: Period.
• 32:24
  Michelle: And so I think even though I've grown so much, some of that damage is everlasting.
• 32:32
  Michelle: This idea that as much as I might love her, I'm also a person who judges her and is not a safe space to land.
• 32:41
  Michelle: And it creates this rupture.
• 32:42
  Michelle: But also, I think what's really important too is the way that we were just talking about naming it's not if when and sort of asking for that grace.
• 32:52
  Michelle: Not everyone knows to do that or has the confidence because if they also have that feeling of being unworthy or unlovable, then to make a request that big and to share of themselves in that way might feel impossible.
• 33:06
  Danyelle: Yeah, literally impossible.
• 33:08
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:09
  Danyelle: And I will say, again, fairly recently, it feels comfortable to just talk about my experience with mental health.
• 33:19
  Danyelle: But it didn't for most of my life.
• 33:20
  Danyelle: Right.
• 33:21
  Danyelle: And that language or that word of impossible feels real, you know, and the decisions that I would make to try to appease, to try to save, to try to just do my best.
• 33:36
  Danyelle: And I was just flailing, like I was really struggling instead of saying, hey, I'm really struggling.
• 33:44
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 33:44
  Danyelle: And again, you know, that's that's that has been a part of my journey and a part of my work, and still is.
• 33:53
  Danyelle: And I think what we're really saying is it's co-created within friendship.
• 33:58
  Danyelle: How safe does this person make you feel to be able to share?
• 34:03
  Danyelle: How much can this person hold?
• 34:06
  Danyelle: What are the boundaries?
• 34:08
  Danyelle: What are the ask?
• 34:10
  Danyelle: I don't actually need advice.
• 34:12
  Danyelle: I just like need you to sit in silence with me.
• 34:15
  Danyelle: Um, I need you to just say, it's totally okay, get here when you can, you know, and figuring out the ways that work for the relationship, for us, but like in general, like for y'all individually, but also for the unit that it does need both people's input.
• 34:35
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 34:36
  Michelle: And I'm thinking about this anecdote that I just offered.
• 34:41
  Michelle: There's mental health on both sides there.
• 34:44
  Michelle: There's the person who may or may not be experiencing depression or something like that.
• 34:48
  Michelle: And then even just my attachment style is a form of mental health in the ways that I talk to myself or my inherent worthiness and the way that I then respond in the world is a function of trauma and mental health as well.
• 35:03
  Michelle: And so everyone is dealing with this.
• 35:06
  Michelle: That's sort of the hidden ha ha of the episode.
• 35:09
  Michelle: It's not like when or if mental illness lives in the friendship.
• 35:13
  Michelle: It's like mental health lives in your friendship.
• 35:17
  Michelle: And even if it's just what you're going through right here and now without a diagnosis and how that does or doesn't match up with your friend is something to navigate.
• 35:30
  Michelle: And so, how do we do that with grace?
• 35:32
  Michelle: And to me, not to like wrap it up with a bow, but I think the biggest part of it is creating safety however you can.
• 35:43
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 35:45
  Danyelle: And knowing your own capacity.
• 35:48
  Danyelle: Sometimes you can't hold it, and that's okay.
• 35:52
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 35:52
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about a friend who their neurospicy and my neurospicy just really don't make.
• 36:00
  Danyelle: I can see how it's hard for both of us.
• 36:04
  Danyelle: And we try, you know, like we uh do the dance.
• 36:09
  Danyelle: Um, but there are things that they do that just wow make me so frustrated, and vice versa.
• 36:18
  Danyelle: And having to have those conversations of like, I don't know if I don't know where we meet each other.
• 36:25
  Danyelle: And it's a newer friend, and I don't know what will happen in the friendship, but I do think recognizing it and being able to say what's going on, say what's happening versus this idea of sitting in isolation, not naming what feels very obvious, and the relief that comes with being able to say this is where we are.
• 36:51
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 36:52
  Danyelle: The relief that comes with this is my truth.
• 36:58
  Danyelle: This is my lens.
• 37:01
  Danyelle: Where are you?
• 37:02
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Michelle: In this moment, I'm thinking about a dear friend of mine that I knew from kindergarten, but I would say we became really close throughout high school and beyond.
• 37:14
  Michelle: And she passed away a few years ago from the impacts of an eating disorder.
• 37:21
  Michelle: And I think what it's bringing up is this idea of as a friend, what do you do when mental health lives in the friendship?
• 37:29
  Michelle: When I would see her and see the ways in which she wouldn't eat around me, or there were so many restrictions around gluten and dairy and meat or no meat and no sugar, and and you see the damage that that they're doing to themselves, but also you love that person so much.
• 37:49
  Michelle: I love spending time with her.
• 37:50
  Michelle: We would have the best conversations and and also someone who is just so incredibly smart, who understands all the mental health and all the stuff underneath it and could talk, could talk about it and and be, I don't know.
• 38:07
  Michelle: I feel like she was often managing my emotions around it more than she was being 100% honest about hers.
• 38:14
  Michelle: But when she passed, I felt, I mean, talk about the stages of grief.
• 38:22
  Michelle: Um I mean, uh devastated, of course, but also angry that she didn't get help or go into a clinic that she had tried before and hated, and that maybe I didn't step in in a different way, or that I should have said more.
• 38:40
  Michelle: And then even just like, was I a good enough friend?
• 38:44
  Michelle: That I wasn't there like exactly at the end, or didn't know when it was coming.
• 38:48
  Michelle: And even when she started gifting me her childhood belongings, that I still didn't accept that that was coming.
• 39:00
  Michelle: Speaking of crying this episode, um, and so I don't have any advice for that, but if you are someone who has if you are someone in a similar place or you have a friend that you're worried about, as hard as it is for me to even say in this moment, like it's just still not your job to fix.
• 39:26
  Michelle: And it's hard to say that out loud, and it's even harder to believe it.
• 39:32
  Michelle: But I think that the best thing that I did as a friend to her was to love her, despite because of in lieu of you know, all the all the ups um of mental health, because that didn't define her.
• 39:51
  Michelle: She was an amazing friend, and and I think important to say that you still can be an amazing friend even when you're really struggling.
• 40:03
  Michelle: So yeah.
• 40:05
  Danyelle: I really appreciate you sharing and allowing yourself to be the one in that moment.
• 40:11
  Danyelle: I didn't know that was gonna happen.
• 40:25
  Michelle: I know I don't want to ruin my makeup.
• 40:30
  Michelle: I can't use your powder, bitch.
• 40:37
  Michelle: Yeah, I miss her a lot.
• 40:39
  Michelle: And I mean, that's the extreme, right?
• 40:43
  Michelle: Like we can all be going through it, but when it really is that deep we did have the conversations, it's not like I ignored it or never mentioned it.
• 40:54
  Michelle: And so that does give me some peace that she's a grown-up, and grown-ups get to make their own decisions.
• 41:00
  Michelle: And I think that there's a from what she shared with me, it's like there's a a humiliation that's sometimes attached to needing help in that way or not having gotten over it or overcome it.
• 41:16
  Michelle: And that what sort of matters in the end is that it's on your terms and with your autonomy, and that sometimes it's not something to be fixed.
• 41:27
  Michelle: That she was sort of like even if I did go to the thing and gained the weight and figured it all out, it would still be in my head and it would still be screaming at me, and I haven't been able to fix that.
• 41:44
  Michelle: And she wrote a beautiful article, which I'll link in the show notes, because I think it really helped me as someone who I think she knew that the people in her life were gonna blame themselves.
• 41:57
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah, it was such a beautiful paper, yeah.
• 42:02
  Danyelle: Such a beautiful, you know, like this is this is me.
• 42:08
  Michelle: This is yeah, this is where we are, and also a little bit of the like don't give yourself that much credit.
• 42:15
  Michelle: Like you couldn't have fixed this, you know, and like fuck you for that, but also beautiful.
• 42:24
  Michelle: She would have loved this podcast.
• 42:26
  Michelle: She would have.
• 42:32
  Danyelle: I'm just giving it to me.
• 42:45
  Danyelle: I appreciate you sharing about her and her memory, and I think you mentioned it, that is the extreme to lose a friend to mental health, to an eating disorder.
• 43:00
  Danyelle: There's something about one of the things as we were prepping for this episode was like, we're like, we're gonna make this one a little bit less tools oriented.
• 43:14
  Danyelle: Um and as you're speaking in and your emotions are here present.
• 43:21
  Danyelle: I'm like, just give space.
• 43:25
  Danyelle: I'm like saying it in my life.
• 43:28
  Danyelle: Like people are allowed to have emotions, and and I think this is a little bit of the in real life, you know, this is this is what you carry, this is a part of your story.
• 43:42
  Danyelle: And as we're talking about how mental health lives within friendship, we have to talk about all of it.
• 43:52
  Danyelle: We have to give space and I would say like honor to.
• 44:00
  Danyelle: The hard parts, the parts that as a society we don't do well at holding or naming or comforting.
• 44:09
  Danyelle: And that's why the third thing is different.
• 44:12
  Danyelle: That's why we created this because it's not about being on the surface, it's not about fixing, it's about bringing all of it and sorting through it together.
• 44:22
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 44:25
  Michelle: It is really special how now that we've introduced so many of these practices, tools to the table that we can see how they all play into the conversations, boundaries, attachment styles, creating safe containers and safe space.
• 44:47
  Michelle: Um, yeah, this is I I feel so passionately about this one because we're talking about mental health and friendship, but it's like it's with us, it's with our families, it's it's with the people you work with.
• 45:03
  Michelle: And so I think my invitation is like, where could you dig even just the tiniest bit deeper and be like that person showing up late every day?
• 45:17
  Michelle: And instead of slapping them around the wrist, be like, what's going on?
• 45:20
  Michelle: Can we change your start time or like can we change this meeting time?
• 45:23
  Michelle: It seems like it's not working for you.
• 45:24
  Michelle: And that doesn't mean you have to be like, what's going on with you?
• 45:28
  Michelle: It's not always your right to know.
• 45:30
  Michelle: But whether it's with a coworker or a friend or with a family member, where might the thing that's annoying you be an invitation to get curious about what's going on for them?
• 45:42
  Danyelle: Yeah, I think what you're really speaking to is it's not about you.
• 45:48
  Michelle: And excuse me.
• 45:52
  Michelle: No, exactly.
• 45:53
  Michelle: Yes.
• 45:53
  Danyelle: But like also this like awareness, right?
• 45:57
  Danyelle: How can you hold a little bit of distance with deep awareness?
• 46:04
  Danyelle: And you know, I think we're really good at that.
• 46:08
  Danyelle: I think maybe it's a little bit of our telepathic powers of 26 years of being in a relationship, but like you know when you're like, I'm gonna give space, and when you're like, pick up the phone.
• 46:25
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 46:26
  Danyelle: And so I think what you are speaking to this like awareness, and what I want to invite folks to think about is how do you make it less personal?
• 46:36
  Danyelle: How do you allow people to be on their path, be in their journey, be in their shit, but not but not allow yourself to get lost, but not allow yourself to be in it too much.
• 46:58
  Danyelle: Just giving that that space.
• 47:00
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 47:02
  Danyelle: With care and with love, with honesty.
• 47:06
  Danyelle: Um yeah.
• 47:10
  Michelle: What bubbled to the surface for you this episode?
• 47:14
  Michelle: Well, we left room for the unscripted.
• 47:21
  Danyelle: What bubbled to the top for me today is just the importance of opening your mouth and using your words, being able to say what's going on, naming where you are, naming what's coming up, what's challenging, even when it's really hard, even when it's really uncomfortable, even when it might feel safer to isolate.
• 47:48
  Danyelle: For me, as somebody who's lived with mental health for all of the moons and has isolated a lot of that time.
• 47:57
  Danyelle: Yeah, it's just like a really beautiful reminder of like, oh, I don't have to carry this burden alone.
• 48:05
  Michelle: I mean, that's a mic job.
• 48:08
  Michelle: I love it.
• 48:09
  Michelle: What about for you?
• 48:10
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 48:12
  Michelle: I think as someone with anxious attachment who's quick to take things personally, I think my life started changing when I allowed for space for people to be imperfect and to not show up the way that I wanted them to, and to ask questions or give space, give breathing room to a moment, to a response.
• 48:33
  Michelle: And I think I was just on Reddit today reading about somebody who was too emotional and taking things too personal.
• 48:40
  Michelle: And I was told that my whole life.
• 48:42
  Michelle: And I still am emotional, but in terms of taking things personally, it's just so rarely about you.
• 48:49
  Michelle: And I can with the let, you know, with the beauty of hindsight, see moments in my own life where I was probably depressed and and isolated and closed in, and just knowing that not everyone has the same tools to get out of it, not everyone's experiencing the same mental health.
• 49:10
  Michelle: And I think another gift that I've picked up along the way is like listening is better than giving advice.
• 49:19
  Michelle: Like 19 times out of 20, you know, that being a safe person is actually mostly what people need, and they'll let you know when they need something else.
• 49:32
  Michelle: Because then you're really saying I value you and I value this friendship more than I'm trying to fix something about you so that I can feel better.
• 49:41
  Danyelle: Yeah, that's really beautiful.
• 49:43
  Michelle: Will you pull us a card?
• 49:44
  Danyelle: Oh, I will, I will, I will.
• 49:49
  Danyelle: What do the cards have in store for us today?
• 49:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:00
  Danyelle: So we've got the Ace of Pentacles.
• 50:03
  Danyelle: I think this is our second ace.
• 50:05
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 50:06
  Danyelle: Um Ace is the thread this season.
• 50:10
  Danyelle: Pentacles is connected to the element earth, and it is what we built.
• 50:14
  Danyelle: It's our bodies, it's our homes, it's how we contribute.
• 50:18
  Danyelle: I think of pentacle energy as like quintessential, the third thing, energy.
• 50:23
  Danyelle: It's like community being together.
• 50:26
  Danyelle: So aces in the tarot are to me the most divine.
• 50:30
  Danyelle: You know that I read for with energy, and so sometimes it's not gonna be exactly the same.
• 50:36
  Danyelle: Like, how are you trusting that when you're showing up with your friends in this earth pentacle foundation building energy, that it is what it needs to be?
• 50:50
  Danyelle: If the ace is the most divine in the tarot, there is something about trusting the trusting the unseen, trusting your ability to say, I might not always have the right words or do the right thing, but your heart is there.
• 51:09
  Danyelle: This ace of pentacles is a really beautiful, like, it's okay.
• 51:16
  Danyelle: We will figure it out, we will move together, we will navigate this together.
• 51:23
  Danyelle: Ace is the universe having your back.
• 51:25
  Danyelle: And as we're talking about mental health and how it lives in friendship, there is this component of some of the things that live outside of the 3D and more in the 5D that are also pulling us to show up differently, to show up with more compassion, to love on ourselves in a way that is going to help you love other people.
• 51:51
  Danyelle: So, yeah, to me, this ace of pentacles is is a really beautiful, like it's okay.
• 51:57
  Danyelle: It will be okay.
• 52:00
  Danyelle: It's gonna be okay, y'all.
• 52:03
  Danyelle: We'll see you next week.
• 52:05
  Danyelle: Bye.
• 52:05
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 52:09
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 52:17
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 52:20
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 52:28
  Michelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 52:30
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 52:35
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.