Latest / Found in Interpretation Podcast / Ep. 54 - Corrine McKay: Getting Started as a Freelance Interpreter.

Transcript

Ep. 54 - Corrine McKay: Getting Started as a Freelance Interpreter. · Found in Interpretation Podcast

0:00
Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Fountain
0:03
Interpretation Podcast, the podcast that talks about
0:06
everything in interpretation, translation, AI, you name it and
0:12
I'm here. Brian, Brian, how you doing?
0:14
I'm doing great, thank you. Don't forget, we also talk about
0:16
languages. Yeah, that's right.
0:19
We also talk about language. And this is an awesome
0:21
opportunity to introduce Corinne.
0:22
Corinne, how are you today? Fantastic.
0:24
Thanks for inviting me back on the podcast.
0:26
Really happy to be here. Alright, let's kick it.
0:41
OK, so I will not read Corinne's bio again because she was on the
0:47
a previous episode. But actually today, Brian, I
0:51
don't know if you mind showing it because you've got the
0:53
physical copy. Do they?
0:56
We're introducing this book called Freelance Interpreter,
1:00
Essential Strategies for launching and growing your
1:03
business as a spoken language interpreter.
1:07
So Karine, last time you were in the podcast, you did mention
1:13
that you were about to release this new book.
1:18
So, Brian, I'll let you start because you told me last night
1:22
that you actually finished reading it, right?
1:25
Yes, yes, I was putting my daughter to bed and that's why I
1:28
still have the night light because that way she doesn't
1:30
wake up with him, right. But yeah, no, it was great.
1:34
It was a it was a great read. It was a very fast and like very
1:39
like you're very honest, very candid about your experience,
1:43
which I really love. And I think that's great for
1:45
people who are just trying to get into the industry.
1:49
And yeah, no, my overall impression is like 2 thumbs up
1:53
sick. But how do how do you feel after
1:55
you've written this book? Yeah, Well, I think, you know, 1
1:59
facet of writing or translating a book is that by the time it
2:04
comes out and when you're supposed to generate excitement
2:06
among everyone else, you're like so over it With this book, every
2:13
book that I've written or translated has been exactly the
2:16
same way that by the time it's published, you know, you're just
2:19
kind of done with this whole project and then you have to
2:21
generate excitement under among other people.
2:24
But I will say it came out in June.
2:27
Sales have been strong so far. And I'm really happy with the
2:33
reviews from people, including you, whose opinions I really
2:36
respect. So I would say it was, you know,
2:39
hands down a worthwhile project. I've already, I self published
2:43
the book, like all the books that I've written, and I've
2:45
already earned back what it cost me to publish it.
2:48
So making a profit is always good, but it's already at, you
2:51
know, sort of break even for royalties.
2:53
And I think that the reviews of it have been quite positive,
2:57
including from interpreters who are more experienced than myself
3:01
and whose opinions I really respect.
3:02
So I'm happy with it. And did you did you were into
3:08
the American Translators Association conference about a
3:12
month ago? That's great.
3:13
Yeah. And they, yeah, they have a book
3:15
fair there, so I sold the physical copies of it there.
3:18
And you can also purchase it wherever fine books are sold.
3:23
Know that you know we're all trying.
3:25
To Amazon. Well, we're all trying to avoid
3:27
Amazon these days, but to be honest, in the book world, it's
3:30
almost impossible because Amazon really, they own everything now.
3:34
They own Audible, they own Good reads, they own Abebooks, which
3:38
is the main place to buy used books online.
3:40
But if you would like to purchase from your local
3:44
bookstore, you can do that and you can purchase it directly
3:48
from my website, trainingfortranslators.com.
3:52
And I think the best way to support any independent author
3:54
is to purchase directly from us. So you can buy the print or
3:57
electronic versions directly from me.
4:01
I I think actually, yeah, you're right.
4:03
Cause I think Amazon before you could buy anything and
4:06
everything under the moon, you would.
4:09
It was basically mostly geared towards the books.
4:11
Bookstore right? When Amazon, When Amazon started
4:14
out, I mean those of us who have been on the Internet long enough
4:17
to remember that their slogan was Earth's largest bookstore.
4:22
Yes, the original Amazon slogan was Earth's largest.
4:25
Bookstore. They just removed one word.
4:28
Right. Yeah.
4:30
That's it, That's all. The largest store, right?
4:35
Of everything. You're right.
4:37
But yeah. So, so the American Translators
4:39
Association conference that it it helps with the sales, but
4:43
also like was it a good experience overall to be there
4:45
and did you reconnect with people that you had lost touch
4:48
with or how how does that? Look, yeah, I mean, I'm probably
4:52
not the best sample size for the ATA conference because I've gone
4:56
every year since 2004. And so for me, like, you know,
5:02
I've, I've gone 21 times in a row.
5:06
And so I see, you know, a lot of colleagues who I've seen over
5:10
the years there. And I will say that for me going
5:13
for the 21st time, the thing that was the conference was
5:17
fantastic as always. I've never been to an ATA
5:20
conference that I didn't love. And I've honestly never talked
5:23
to someone who didn't love the ATA conference.
5:26
It's just expensive. You know, there really, there
5:29
really is not anything to dislike about it.
5:31
There are. It's always in a fantastic
5:33
venue. It was in a beautiful hotel and
5:35
the Boston Seaport. There's so many sessions that if
5:39
you can't find something there, I don't know what to tell you.
5:43
They they have like 10 sessions in every session slot.
5:47
And so if you can't find something that you're interested
5:50
in, I don't know what to do for you.
5:52
But it's a pretty big financial commitment, especially for
5:56
people who are just starting out or people who work part time or
5:58
things like that. But I think, you know, for
6:01
myself, that going the 21st time made me realize, wow, like a
6:06
whole generation of translators and interpreters has has
6:10
progressed since I first started going.
6:12
So I'm 54 now. I was 33 the first ATA
6:16
conference that I went to. So the people who were at that
6:19
time in their 50s are now, you know, in their 70s and a lot are
6:24
semi retired. And to be honest, a lot of the,
6:27
you know, quote UN quote elders of that generation have now
6:30
passed away. You know, people who gave me
6:33
really great advice when I first started out and they were at the
6:36
tail end of their careers. And I just think it's a message
6:39
to all of us, like it's later than you think.
6:42
You know, kids like keep moving because because someday, knock
6:47
on wood, that's going to be all of us who are in our mid career
6:50
now, is it? We're going to be the elders of
6:52
someone else's translation generation.
6:54
So yeah, I really loved it. We're going to take a screenshot
6:58
after this and then in 20 years look back.
7:03
Right. And also my beard was all black,
7:05
you know? Yeah.
7:06
I don't diet, you know, but coming back to your book for a
7:12
second, you call it the freelance interpreter.
7:15
So you're really target this time at interpreters and
7:17
translators in this book? That's right.
7:19
It's actually called Getting Started as a Freelance
7:21
Interpreter. So the first book that I wrote
7:24
is called How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator.
7:28
It's in it's third edition. And actually, my next book
7:31
project is to write, wait for it, the 20th anniversary edition
7:36
of that book, because the 1st edition came out in 2006.
7:40
And that, yeah, that book, I, I know.
7:43
And now I'm like, what on earth did I know in 2006?
7:46
Not much. But but you were getting started
7:51
as a translate. Well, right, exactly.
7:53
And I would say that How to Succeed as a Freelance
7:56
translator is sort of a more comprehensive guide to
7:59
freelancing in the language professions in general.
8:02
Where is the new book? Getting started as a freelance
8:05
interpreter is largely based on my starting as an, as an
8:10
interpreter really from the ground up in like the past, you
8:13
know, eight years. And so it's like you said on a
8:16
it's only for interpreters. There's nothing in there about
8:19
written translation, so only. For alright, and are you, do you
8:26
talk about let's say a beginners mistake thing or the
8:30
technological changes? What is the biggest aspect that
8:35
you're focusing on here? Yeah, so I have.
8:37
There's a whole chapter called Your First Year as a Freelancer
8:40
that talks about, you know, how to set yourself up successfully
8:44
and yeah, and also about technology, how to get training,
8:48
professional associations. Because one thing I think that
8:51
really strikes me as someone who does a translation and
8:55
interpreting is that translation is at least partially a talent.
9:00
Like there are pretty prominent literary translators who kind of
9:05
roared onto the literary translation scene, which with
9:08
the first book that they ever translated was a tremendous
9:11
success. You know, I can think of
9:13
multiple literary translators like that.
9:15
Whereas with interpreting, it really is a skill.
9:19
Like there are people who have varying degrees of talent for
9:23
it. You know, like, I'd say I'm a
9:25
solid interpreter. I'm not a brilliant interpreter.
9:28
Like, I don't think I'm one of those people who someone listens
9:30
to and goes like, whoa, where did she come up with that?
9:34
But like, I do a decent job at it.
9:36
But I think that the real difference with interpreting is
9:40
that if you didn't want the skills, you can't do it.
9:44
Like sometimes I say to people, it's a lot like learning a
9:48
musical instrument. Like, I play the cello and you
9:52
know, the first time that yo-yo Ma sat down at a cello and tried
9:56
to play it, he was probably way better than I am.
9:58
But he didn't just sit down and like play the Bach cello suites
10:02
from nothing. Because you have to know how to
10:04
read music. You have to know where the notes
10:06
are on the cello strings. You have to know how to use the
10:08
bow, right? And I think interpreting is a
10:11
lot like that, that if all of us think of the first time that we
10:14
even try to like listen and talk at the same time, it's a very
10:18
odd feeling if you've never done it before.
10:20
So I think I also focus a lot and like building your skills as
10:24
an interpreter, whether you want to do court, medical conference,
10:27
you know, whatever your flavor is.
10:30
Yeah, I like that you use flavour in the book a few times
10:33
too. Well, I think that for a lot of
10:36
us, the very first experience was when we were children
10:40
because, for instance, I had to help my mother.
10:45
She's a, she speaks Spanish and my French got a lot better than
10:50
hers very quickly when I was a child.
10:53
So I think that a lot of interpreters out there basically
10:58
were interpreting when they were children without even noticing.
11:01
Right. Exactly.
11:03
Or like the first time I ever went to France, like French was
11:06
my favorite subject in school. And the first time I ever went
11:09
to France, I went with my mom, you know, who spoke no French.
11:12
So being like, right, What are the Gelato flavors that you
11:16
don't realize that you're interpreting, but you are.
11:18
So yeah, there's that aspect of it too.
11:21
Yeah, yeah, Sounds like the kind of profession where you can just
11:24
learn it on like without, like from scratch basically, and then
11:30
make your way to becoming the yo-yo ma of interpretation.
11:34
Right. I got a coin that yeah, I do, I
11:39
do like too that you do offer the, the different explanations
11:42
on what each type of interpretation is like the
11:44
community interpretation and, and the legal and medical and
11:49
conference. And it is, there's such a,
11:52
there's such a variety of of fields to get into.
11:56
One of the things that I, I don't know if I saw that in the
11:59
book or not, but what one of the recommendations that I've always
12:02
heard, and especially I think Jonathan Downey mentions it a
12:05
lot when he was as posted on LinkedIn or are on our podcast,
12:10
is to specialize in something. I think that's really important
12:13
too. Like if you wanna be a court
12:16
interpreter, that's what you should specialize it.
12:18
If you wanna be a medical interpreter, that's what you
12:20
should specialize it. Don't try to do a mishmash of
12:23
everything because you're just gonna do a half ass job at
12:26
everything. So.
12:28
Yeah, and I think, you know, you want to think too, about what
12:32
settings do you really like being in?
12:36
Like, whatever it says about me, I actually kind of enjoy hanging
12:39
out in court. You know, to me, like, if you
12:42
love hearing the, if you like legal stuff and you love hearing
12:46
the intricacies of people's lives, no better place to hang
12:49
out than court. Whereas I'm just not a medical
12:52
person. I don't like.
12:54
It's like a soap opera, but you're getting paid.
12:56
Actually, Oh my gosh, right, the other.
12:59
It's a very technical soap opera.
13:01
Right. Yeah, 2 days ago I was
13:03
interpreting in protection order court for a case between two
13:08
roommates that started with unwashed dishes.
13:12
Be care, be careful those who live with roommates.
13:17
Unwashed dishes. Wow.
13:19
That that erupted into them ending up in protection order
13:23
court and it was violent enough that the protection order was
13:26
granted. Yeah.
13:27
The dishwasher was the witness. Right, the guy, the guy who did
13:31
not wash the dishes was the defendant and the guy.
13:34
Who? Yeah, the guy.
13:35
Who objected to the dishes being washed was the plaintiff.
13:41
Do to men that were. Yeah.
13:43
So I just think, right. So I just think that when when
13:46
you think through like what settings do you really enjoy,
13:49
for example, I'm just not a medical person.
13:51
I don't enjoy being in hospitals.
13:54
I don't find medical stuff particularly.
13:56
It's not something I would read on my own.
13:58
So I think when you think about what you enjoy sort of
14:02
experiencing and reading about and researching that, that'll
14:04
also lead you to the kind of interpreting that you want to
14:07
do. Yeah, my mum was kind of like
14:10
that too. Like she was very much into
14:13
wanting to be a doctor when she was a kid.
14:15
And then she because because she lived in Mexico and I think just
14:19
the cult, the societal norms back then, she couldn't go to
14:22
Med school. So her brother did.
14:24
So she finds like she did the next best thing, which has
14:28
become a medical interpreter because she enjoyed it so much.
14:31
So she never went to did court interpretation or anything like
14:34
that, but she did medical interpretation, community
14:37
interpretation. And one of the things that she
14:41
hated doing and that she stopped doing fairly quickly was going
14:44
to the prisons. Yeah.
14:46
Because she felt very great prison stuff.
14:48
Yeah. She, she felt very intimidated
14:51
and thought maybe like somebody like, she's only like, she's not
14:54
even 5 feet tall. I don't think she's like very
14:57
little woman. And, you know, with these big
14:59
burly guys with tattoos and if they lose their, their minds or,
15:03
you know, their self-control, then my mom's in the room.
15:07
So yeah, no, she stopped doing that pretty quick.
15:11
Wow, that's a I can, I can. I met you.
15:13
I met your mom, Brian. I can.
15:14
Just try to imagine that scene here.
15:16
Yeah. So I've seen in your book you
15:25
talk about what it takes to become an interpreter.
15:29
Can you elaborate on that? Yeah.
15:32
So I think that translation and interpreting, if we want to
15:37
think about it that way, are like separated by a common
15:41
language that people think of translation and interpreting as
15:45
really similar. And I guess that they are sort
15:47
of the two most related professions.
15:50
But I think weirdly enough, a lot of translators don't speak
15:54
their source languages that well because to be a translator, you
15:58
only have to read it right. And so I think, you know, for
16:01
myself, like my spoken French was probably, I don't know, high
16:06
end of average for a translator. Like I did study abroad in
16:11
France in a program where I lived with a family who didn't
16:13
speak English. We went to the regular French
16:15
university and the professors didn't know, you know, who was
16:19
an exchange student and who was French and my husband Swiss.
16:23
And so we go to Switzerland fairly frequently.
16:26
But like, I don't use French in my daily life at all.
16:28
There's not a big French speaking community where I live,
16:31
and nobody else in my family speaks French.
16:34
So a lot of what I had to do was like, you know, when I went to
16:39
the MC I program at Glendon and we were talking about our
16:43
language combinations. I would say like, I'm English a
16:46
French B, but I'm like a real French B.
16:49
Like a lot of you Canadians, when you say that you're French
16:52
bee, you're like, oh, but I went to bilingual school.
16:55
Oh, but my grandparents speak French and so we always spoke
16:58
French with them. And I'm like, no, no, when you
17:00
live in the US and you say that you're French be you're like
17:02
really French bee. So I think that that for, and
17:06
I'm saying that only to say to your listeners like if I did it,
17:10
you can do it. So over the course of about a
17:13
year and a half, I studied for my first initiative was to study
17:18
for the Colorado court interpreter exam.
17:21
So I live in the US state of Colorado, which is in the
17:23
foothills of the Rocky Mountains in the Western United States.
17:27
And our court interpreting certification here is that the
17:30
state at your state level. So for about a year and a half,
17:34
I prepared for that and I did about 400 hours of direct
17:40
preparation for the exam. But I did an equal amount of
17:43
just working on my spoken French.
17:46
So I listened to podcasts and shadowed the news.
17:50
And so for any of your listeners who are super beginner,
17:54
shadowing is the most basic skill you learn when you learn
17:57
simultaneous interpreting where you repeat after the speaker in
18:00
the same language. So it's like simultaneous
18:03
without the interpreting. So, so I probably did another at
18:08
least 400 hours of just working on my French and I did, there's
18:13
an online platform called I Hockey where you can work with
18:18
live conversation partners and instructors.
18:21
And so I tried to do that like at least once.
18:23
It would do an I talkie session at least once a week.
18:26
So I think that's something that in a way is maybe a little bit
18:29
different about me than a lot of people who started out as
18:32
interpreters. Because I think a lot of people
18:34
come at it from the angle of being what we would call in the
18:37
US heritage speakers, people who grew up bilingual but without
18:41
any formal language instruction. And I was the opposite.
18:45
I had a lot of foreign formal language instruction and a
18:49
bachelors and a masters degree in French, but I didn't grow up
18:51
bilingual, which so I think, and I'm saying that for any of your
18:55
listeners who have that path, just to know like the speaking
18:59
aspect might be more work for you, but you can totally do it.
19:03
Like I passed the Colorado court interpreter exam on the first
19:06
try after a year of studying. So it's doable.
19:11
Yeah, we put a lot of emphasis on the on, on the educational
19:15
component of things to be able to get started.
19:18
Yeah, but when we think about the the A language, B language,
19:22
even C language, I think that there are two aspects here.
19:27
Because when we like, for instance, in my case, my English
19:31
is AB language because I was not educated in English.
19:35
I did all of my studies, elementary and all the rest, all
19:38
the way university except the masters that I did at Glendon.
19:42
But it was basically interpreting.
19:43
So it doesn't, I don't think it really counts in that sense.
19:46
But so I think that for us, the definition of an A language is
19:51
the language you're educated in and the B language is the
19:55
language that you've learned or in your life, maybe because you
20:01
speak it as a child or perhaps you've learned it later on and
20:05
that makes it a bee language. However, there are some people
20:10
that learned the language as a child but then went to school
20:14
into another language. Let's say a Spanish speaking
20:16
person goes to school in the US and English.
20:19
So eventually they'll become an A in English and they'll still
20:22
be B in Spanish, because having an educated way of speaking does
20:29
not sound. The same as something they've
20:31
learned, you've learned at home, in the family, on the streets,
20:34
etcetera. So I think there is a big
20:37
difference here. I've noticed that with my own
20:38
Spanish, I, I went to university in Spain and when I got there, I
20:42
realized that I had a lot of catching up to do because of the
20:45
range of the, the range of the words.
20:47
I did not sound like I had much of an accent, but I did not have
20:52
the depth that I'd have in English or even less in French.
20:57
Oh, that's super. That's.
20:58
Super interesting. Because you don't like talk
21:00
about literature or talk about scientific concepts or yeah,
21:04
things like that, right? Let, well, let's say for
21:07
instance, math, we, we all did math and I'm not really good at
21:11
math, but I know all the terms in French because I did it all
21:15
throughout my school. But in English, even now I'm
21:18
like, oh, you know, 1 + 1 = 2. OK, that's equal, right?
21:22
But you know, like it's, that's, it's, you have to learn it.
21:26
And it's not something that came out naturally because I didn't
21:29
do any math in English. So that's, that's when, that's
21:32
how I think we separate the A language, the B language and the
21:36
C language. Well, is basically something you
21:38
completely understand, but you cannot express yourself at the
21:40
level of interpreter. Yeah, that's super.
21:42
That's super interesting. I agree with all of that and I
21:44
love how you said it. Now, have you considered a
21:50
version 2 that maybe might include something like pet
21:54
peeves that either your colleagues or like you know, if
22:01
cause cause you, you do, you're very good at explaining like
22:03
where you can go and find work, like you can do like the court
22:07
systems already set up for it. So you don't even have to do any
22:09
marketing for yourself. But like, if you're going to be
22:12
in a conference interpreter, you do have to do a ton of marketing
22:15
for yourself. And I finally, there's some
22:18
things that you should not do and that aren't mentioned in
22:22
your book that maybe should be there even even as a reminder
22:25
for interpreters that are listening today, like I'll give
22:29
it a quick example. Undercutting, hmm, like because
22:34
you, you, like you talked a lot about studying your rates and
22:36
rates that fit your lifestyle and fit your, what your
22:40
projected income is going to be in a year.
22:42
But you should not be doing that to hurt the industry in the
22:46
sense that you're undercutting your colleagues, you're
22:48
undercutting an agency, you're undercutting the rates that are
22:52
kind of the standard rates when you're doing interpretation just
22:56
in order to get more work and to be able to get more assignments
22:58
and get to that salary that you're that you're targeting.
23:02
And that's a great idea, like maybe in the 3rd edition of or
23:06
the sorry 20th anniversary edition of How to Succeed as a
23:09
Freelance Translator. Maybe I'll put in like a what
23:11
not to do, but I will. But I will also say that that
23:15
whole undercutting idea, it's very much an interpreter thing.
23:20
Translators undercut all the time.
23:23
And it's just seen as that's the free market.
23:26
Like I'm not saying that that's right or wrong, but I think in
23:29
the translation world, it's more seen as like everybody charges
23:33
what works for them. You know, if, if two cents a
23:36
word works for you, you go for it.
23:38
It doesn't work for me. So I don't charge.
23:40
I don't charge that, you know, but I just think, and again,
23:44
like I kind of prefer the, I think interpreters are a lot
23:48
more open about talking about money.
23:50
But I will say that that exerting rate pressure on
23:53
colleagues, it's a very interpreter thing.
23:55
Translators don't really do that.
23:57
Yeah, well, also like interpreters have to work with
24:00
colleagues, whereas a lot of translators are in in front of
24:03
the computer, only they they have to fend for themselves.
24:06
But I remember like 20 years ago when I was doing interpretation
24:09
or translation work as an agency, it was about $0.25 a
24:15
word. And right now, in 2025, it's not
24:18
that difference. It didn't go up with inflation,
24:21
that's for sure. Yeah, but product productivity
24:23
went up though. Yes you can.
24:25
You can do a lot. More with your. $0.25 then when
24:28
you could do before. Yeah, you can do it.
24:31
Like there's a lot of AI there that will help you maybe set
24:34
like the foundation for. Software or the dictionaries.
24:38
We used to search for terms and big books, and now we have all
24:42
kinds of online glossaries. Just that I think it's better
24:46
for productivity. But even without that, I wonder
24:49
if the rates would have changed that much.
24:52
Well, well, I don't. I know Santa has nothing to do
24:58
with your book, to read, to do with what you're.
25:02
Interesting conversation because it's something that is like very
25:04
apparent to me is a huge, you know, cultural difference, if
25:08
you want to call it that, between translators and
25:10
interpreters. That I just think, and the
25:13
reason that I say it's not right or wrong is because I think in
25:15
the translation world the mentality is like you charge
25:18
what you wanna charge, you charge what works for you and
25:21
what means your financial goals. Whereas I think in the
25:24
interpreting world, the mindset is more like when you undercut,
25:28
it hurts everybody. It doesn't, it doesn't just hurt
25:31
you, it hurts everybody. And particularly in sort of
25:35
small captive markets that once there's one interpreter who
25:39
charges 25% less than everybody else does, they can potentially
25:42
take all the work. Because you know, the that
25:46
section and I don't know, Montreal or whatever only really
25:49
needs one Vietnamese interpreter.
25:51
And so now, you know, we've got our chief Vietnamese interpreter
25:54
and so we're just going to use that person all the time.
25:57
And I. Think and he accepts anything.
25:59
At any rate, and that person takes anything, at any rate,
26:01
they'll do 3 hours of simal alone.
26:03
Like, you know, whatever you want them to do, they're up for
26:06
it. And so I think, you know,
26:08
there's there's merit to both of those arguments that I think in
26:12
a way, you know, freelancing really is just the free market.
26:16
And I think it is true that the reason that we've seen these
26:20
like real rate erosion in the translation world is because of
26:24
that mindset, you know? Yeah, and it's also.
26:28
And I yeah, but but an interpretation, it's there's a
26:31
lot more hierarchy I think as well.
26:33
I don't know about in translation, but there's a,
26:35
there's a lot of hierarchy interpretation.
26:37
For instance, are you accredited?
26:38
OK, first of all, it is, is your market the official line, at
26:41
least in Canada? Is it in the official language
26:43
realm, yes or no then? Are you accredited by the
26:46
federal government? Yes or no then?
26:48
MRI. Are you yeah, you have an MRI
26:51
exactly. Are you working with some of the
26:53
best agencies or some of the sorry crappy ones?
26:56
And and then are you willing to do a three hour solo, which we
27:01
won't do or are you gonna work with one partner, two partners,
27:06
you know, and are you gonna work on side remote?
27:08
So I think there's a whole pyramid here, right?
27:12
And we're so few, right Compared with every other field.
27:16
I always say that there are more neurosurgeons in Quebec City
27:19
that their interpreters working full time.
27:21
You might be right. So when you're in such a small
27:24
market, everyone knows everyone. And if someone starts to cut on
27:29
the current rates that we, we don't really, we don't really
27:33
talk about it that openly, but we know what they are.
27:36
And an agency at least here in, in our market will not say, OK,
27:40
you know what, for this interpreter, it'll be X amount
27:42
and the other one Z. It's not going to be like that.
27:45
It's going to be flat for everyone.
27:47
So I think that because of that, there's sort of unspoken ranking
27:52
here in in in Canada about which agencies you do business with
27:57
and according to your education specialization or accreditation,
28:02
then it will fluctuate for by a few $100 a day.
28:06
Well, and I think like another thing that is really fascinating
28:09
to me, I was saying this in a class I taught the other day, is
28:13
that a lot of the feelings about interpreter working conditions
28:17
are very cultural or country specific.
28:20
For example, in the US, the idea of hiring 3 interpreters for a
28:24
full day assignment is unknown. No one does that ever.
28:27
It's it's an unknown concept. That you even even the full size
28:32
booth like there's a lot of it is just the the table.
28:35
Yeah, right. Exactly.
28:36
Like there are very few conference venues in the US that
28:40
have fixed booths and clients typically don't rent booths and
28:45
it is really not a thing to hire 3 interpreters for a full day
28:49
assignment. But then on the other hand, when
28:51
you look at, say, conference interpreters who work in Europe,
28:55
they look at what we do for cancellation fees and they're
28:58
like, you got to be kidding me. You let these clients cancel 2
29:01
weeks before the assignment and they don't have to pay you.
29:04
Like in a lot of the European markets, if the client cancels 3
29:07
months ahead, they still pay you unless you can get another
29:10
assignment for that day. Because the idea is like, you
29:14
know, they took that day in your calendar and now you can't give
29:16
it to anybody else. And they should only be able to
29:18
get out of that if you if they can give you another assignment
29:22
or you find another assignment. So I also think that's kind of
29:24
fascinating that a lot of those working condition issues are
29:28
like very country specific. Hmm, Well, I would say too, like
29:34
as a, as a former freelancer that now owns an agency, I took
29:39
a lot of my own hits when I was a freelancer and I created a
29:45
contract that would protect me if I were or still a freelancer.
29:50
So I, I, I kind of like my contract, my agency contract for
29:54
interpreters just because of like what I had the experience
29:58
because like I do have a cancellation policy.
30:00
I do have like a certain fixed rate for a certain like
30:04
everything's like pretty much. Overtime fees, like the client
30:06
can't make you stay two hours late and say, well, you're
30:09
getting a day rate, what do you care, right?
30:12
Yeah. And there there's a recording
30:13
statement like there there's, there's false fail safe
30:18
mechanisms that that are gonna help interpreters in the long
30:22
run to be able to. And I would recommend that too
30:25
for new people. If you're getting into the
30:27
market, don't work without a contract.
30:31
Yeah or yeah, I always make, always put it in writing.
30:34
Yeah, I did when I was a freelancer and I would just get
30:37
like an e-mail. But that says like the place,
30:39
the times, the honorarium and good.
30:42
Luck and the bank account number.
30:45
How do you even like invoices if invoices if you feel like it,
30:50
yeah. But that's the other thing too,
30:53
is like invoicing like that. That is a big thing for
30:56
freelancers too, like the and I'd say a frustration for
31:00
agencies is when it takes forever for someone to.
31:04
Invoice This person's invoicing you for a, you know, big
31:07
assignment that they did six months ago.
31:09
And you're thinking like, first of all, what took you 6 months?
31:12
Second of all, now in my cash flow, I have to know that I owe
31:17
you this money that you should have billed me for 5 1/2 months
31:20
ago. Yeah, I told a freelancer once,
31:24
like, I'm not your, your savings account.
31:26
Like I'm not your, I'm not your retirement account.
31:29
Like you can't just invoice me when you retire with like, yeah,
31:33
you owe me for 20 years of work. Like like.
31:35
That's not how it works. Do you have a clause for the
31:40
time limit for invoicing, let's say?
31:43
I don't. And what an idea.
31:46
What an. Idea some agencies do, I mean,
31:48
and, and I'm sure that they like they wouldn't be stating that if
31:53
people didn't do it. That I've had a couple of agency
31:55
clients that say like we're sending out this e-mail
31:58
specifically to say we will not pay invoices for more than six
32:02
months ago or like we will not pay invoices into the next
32:05
calendar year. And like, the only reason
32:07
they're saying that is because people do it.
32:09
Yeah, that's actually not a bad idea.
32:13
Put some like. Statute of limitations, yeah.
32:16
Yeah, because like, like not only am I not your retirement
32:21
savings account, also like, it's just the receptiveness, you
32:26
know, like I always like to hire freelancers who are very quick.
32:32
Like, I don't like hiring someone who, yeah, very
32:34
responsive, like someone who like will tell you right away,
32:37
like, yes, I'm free or no, I'm not so I can move on to the next
32:40
assignment because my, my, my job gets held back and I'm not
32:45
able to do the things that I have to do as an agency if I'm
32:47
just waiting for answers all day.
32:49
So like, I like Alan, like he's on his, he's got his eyes, his
32:54
watch, like he sees my message and he's like, Yep, I'm free or
32:57
no, I'm not. So I like, I love that I don't
32:59
like waiting around for freelancers to, to, you know,
33:04
let me know or like, you know, there's some and, and rightfully
33:07
so, it depends on your lifestyle too, or the lifestyle of your
33:10
choice. If you choose that you want to
33:12
work these two weeks and then you wanna go camping for a week,
33:15
that's fine. But you just know that the
33:18
agencies, the way they operate, they're not gonna look at that
33:21
as fondly as someone who is always on there like on their
33:24
e-mail, and they're ready to take them on the next
33:26
assignment. Well, you gotta, you gotta, you
33:28
gotta sound reliable. Yeah.
33:30
And if you take some time off, say it invents, right, It's.
33:35
But I think for me that's just simple business practice.
33:39
But it doesn't maybe come naturally to a lot of people.
33:41
To you, but I think all of us can see that a lot of people
33:44
don't do that because for example, I had a client tell me
33:47
the other day about me. Oh, we always ask you first
33:50
because whether or not you're available, you write back right
33:53
away. Like we know that whether you
33:55
can take the assignment or not, that you're going to respond as
33:58
soon as you can. And so like Brian said that
34:02
particularly with interpreting, you can only be in one place at
34:04
one time right there. You're just available or you're
34:08
not. But the problem is the agency
34:10
owner is left hanging. I mean, I'd be interested to
34:14
hear your thoughts on this, Brian, but I've always felt like
34:17
agencies would rather work with people who are solid at the job
34:23
and very easy to work with then people who are brilliant at the
34:26
job and difficult to work with. Like if you.
34:29
Have an interpreter. That you're like, this person's
34:31
interpreting is incredible, but they're constantly complaining
34:35
about the booth mate. There's only specific people
34:37
that they'll work for. They'll threaten that they're
34:39
not going to go through with it if the client doesn't send the
34:41
documents 24 hours ahead, which you can't is control, you know,
34:45
like like all of these things. And I think that most agency
34:49
owners, I mean, just marketing tip to your listeners.
34:52
Most agency owners would rather they're not gonna hire like you
34:55
can't be incompetent and a nice person.
34:58
You know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter how nice
35:00
you are if you're not good if you're not good at the job.
35:02
But I. Think if you're yo-yo mode with
35:05
no people skills. Right.
35:07
But I think most agency owners would rather have someone who
35:11
they think, you know, this person is a totally good
35:13
interpreter. You know, they're like, they're
35:15
good at the job. They're work is always solid.
35:18
And they're the person who, whether or not they're
35:20
available, they respond, you know, in 5 minutes if they're
35:24
looking at their e-mail, but always within an hour, you know?
35:27
There should be a graph in your book where you know there is a
35:31
correlation between the number of contract and being a nice
35:35
person, and then you go into the category and then suddenly it.
35:40
Falls no, but I think like. Like a Turkey before.
35:43
Thanksgiving. But it's true.
35:45
I think like interpreting it to me is so much more of a personal
35:49
connection than translation. And that all of us know people
35:54
who like that, are like that. Not everybody has to be a people
35:58
pleaser. But when we all of us know
36:00
people we work with who they're just difficult people, you know
36:03
what I mean? They're just hard to get along
36:04
with and they're hard to get along with in every aspect of
36:07
their life. And I think that it it is a lot
36:10
more apparent as an interpreter than it is as a translator.
36:15
Yeah, that was one of the good things about being a freelancer
36:17
was that I was able to work with colleagues.
36:19
And if I don't like working with you in a booth, probably not
36:22
gonna like working with you as someone who's hiring you for an.
36:25
Assignment. So right, you get to sort of pre
36:27
screen now that you're the person in the hiring position of
36:30
thinking like, right, would I wanna be booth mates with this
36:32
person? And then you think, no, not
36:35
really, because they are the person who complains about
36:37
everything and nothing is ever up to their standards.
36:40
And they're right. Yeah.
36:44
Well, you know, one piece of advice that I was giving a new
36:48
interpreter recently was be professional, show up on that's
36:54
part of like showing on time and all of that and do the best you
36:58
can for that assignment and invoice early.
37:02
And if you do that and the agency does not hear anything
37:06
else but only positive comments every once in a while when they
37:08
check, then they'll be sending you contracts.
37:12
But if you complain each and every time send 1000 emails, a
37:16
million WhatsApp messages in the chat room, you disturb the
37:20
client, you try to call them and all of that.
37:23
And then the, the agencies like, well, I've got 50 interpreters
37:26
today to take care of. I don't know, Brian, how many,
37:28
but just giving this as an example, I've got 15
37:30
interpreters to take care of today.
37:32
You're not the only one. And I think a lot of people tend
37:34
to forget that, that they're not the centre of the universe here,
37:37
at least from the from the point of view of the agency.
37:40
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.
37:41
Every, every minute counts when you're business owner like and
37:45
it's, and when I first started, I, I said to myself, I'm not
37:49
going to open up a fire hall. I want to open an interpretation
37:52
agency. I don't want to be putting out
37:54
fires left, right and centre because someone said this and
37:56
someone did this and someone is not doing this and they have to
37:59
go after you to get things done or like for you to reply to an
38:03
e-mail or whatnot. Like I just need things to go
38:06
smoothly and efficiently. So that's one tip for for
38:09
newcomers that are coming into the market is just be as
38:13
professional and efficient as possible so that you don't cause
38:18
headaches to agencies and people will want to work with you
38:21
again. Totally agree.
38:25
Was that too blunt or no? No, I was gonna say it was.
38:29
Is that a chapter in your book? That's.
38:30
That's the truth. The truth that we need.
38:33
Yes, well, yeah, I mean, the you were you're very kind in your
38:38
book. I I find like.
38:41
I think I would word things very differently from from and I know
38:48
why you did it and it's great. And I, I mean the, the, the
38:52
overall feeling that I get from your book is always positive.
38:56
Like you're always showing the positive in the industry.
38:59
Like don't worry about AI. Don't worry about like whether
39:03
you're going to make it or not. Just try your best and always be
39:06
good. Be true to yourself, do what you
39:08
like, like specialize in the field that you that is for you.
39:12
Yeah, I found all of that really endearing because not very many
39:17
people would start as an interpreter and write a book.
39:19
It's a recommend people how to do the same job as you.
39:22
Not to mention that you're a freelance interpreter and people
39:25
might eventually take work from you, right?
39:27
We'll see, yeah. Yeah, well, but I don't take any
39:34
work from actually. You know what, I have my little
39:36
thought on that. I, you know, when I, whenever
39:41
someone new comes in, I don't tend to see other interpreters
39:44
as competition, but more as a great booth mate, hopefully to
39:49
work with because this is teamwork.
39:52
And I think a lot of interpreters out there,
39:54
unfortunately, they'll see other interpreters coming in as some
39:59
sort of threat. Oh, they're coming in.
40:01
I'm not going to have as many contract, but I think that if
40:05
you're experience and have a specialty you don't have.
40:10
Much reason to worry about and I think that my biggest concern
40:14
whenever I get a contract, it's not really a concern because I
40:17
know I'm, I work a lot with Brian and other trustworthy
40:20
agencies. But whenever I work with people,
40:25
I want to know who I'm working with.
40:27
And that to me is more, even more important than say, oh, is
40:31
that person taking some work away from me.
40:33
So I think that that feeling of collaboration with other people
40:39
makes you see other interpreters not as threats.
40:42
Yeah, I like it too. And in my, in my contract again,
40:47
coming back to it, I always specify who The Who you're going
40:49
to be working with. And like, I like it when when I
40:52
hear interpreters say like, oh, I don't know this person, can
40:55
you put me in touch so we can like start talking and like
40:57
going through all the, the stuff for this assignment.
41:00
Like I really enjoy that part, the collaboration.
41:03
And I would maybe it would be a red flag if that kind of
41:07
information wasn't shared by the agency that you're working with,
41:10
like who you're going to be working with, like all of the
41:13
conditions, everything should be laid out in the contract.
41:17
Yeah, well, now people see our names on the contract, Brian,
41:20
and everybody knows us because of the podcast.
41:22
Exactly. Because those two again?
41:24
Oh no. You don't know me.
41:28
Watch Found interpretation Comcast available on Apple,
41:31
Spotify, Apple or Amazon and whatever.
41:34
YouTube Yeah, All them yeah. So green how the so like after,
41:41
like you said, like now you're you're done with this book.
41:43
But like, really, is this like your your baby that you're gonna
41:47
continue nurturing and like you're gonna come up with like a
41:50
second edition and a third edition or how do you feel?
41:53
Yeah, possibly. I mean, I think I have like, I
41:57
mean, my problem is always too many big ideas, too little time
42:01
and energy. Like I never suffer from a
42:04
shortage of ideas. So then my next book will
42:09
definitely be the 20th anniversary edition of How to
42:11
Succeed as a Freelance Translator.
42:13
And then I have a couple I would really like to write.
42:16
I'm a big time and money management person, so I would
42:20
actually really like to write a book about time and money
42:22
management for translators and interpreters.
42:25
And then I've always wanted to write an alphabet book.
42:28
The A-Z of marketing your translation and interpreting
42:32
business. Like A is for associations, B is
42:36
for. You know what I mean?
42:39
Well, that's the thing. I know I actually write.
42:42
I started asking Chachi ET for, right, I, I, I started asking
42:46
Chachi PT for ideas for some of the letters that I couldn't come
42:48
up with anything for. So I don't know.
42:51
I have, you know, too many books rattling around in my head.
42:53
And I would say that I try to let it go like at least five
42:57
years before a second edition. And I mean, and I think that the
43:02
big question in the next 5 years for interpreting is what's gonna
43:05
happen with automated stuff. You know, I mean, my only data
43:09
point right now is that I have a client who hires me to replace
43:12
their automated interpreting system because they hate it so
43:14
much. I think we saw they have a
43:18
speech recognition machine translation system and they hate
43:21
it. There's so much that they hire
43:23
interpreters to replace it. But I think that's the big
43:26
question is like, you know, after literally 20 years of
43:29
hearing about machine translation, like it's getting
43:32
better, it's getting better, it's getting better than ChatGPT
43:35
sort of, you know, roared on the scene in 2022.
43:38
And I think the big question for interpreting is could something
43:41
similar happen? Or, you know, is it for
43:44
unscripted live things? Is it really beyond the scope of
43:48
what technology can do right now?
43:50
So, you know, we'll see what happens.
43:52
With that, I always, I always say that like there's a time and
43:55
place like there if you're gonna be like, say in the court
43:58
system, if you're juggling with someone's life, I would rather
44:04
have a human than a machine determine what I'm listening to
44:09
when a judge is is pronouncing the sentence or final judgment
44:13
or decision. But for other things in the
44:16
court system, like say like it's a huge apparatus in this huge
44:20
building, maybe like at the entrance you have multiple
44:24
languages that describe how to go to courtroom G or courtroom
44:30
122 or like where the washroom is like in in the language of
44:35
your choice. Like that kind of thing would be
44:37
really cool to be implemented. But yeah, just there some places
44:42
where it's like, no. But I'm glad that you do talk
44:44
about the AI bit and encourage people to look beyond that
44:48
because it's not the be all end all right?
44:51
Well, it's not because your car has a an airbag that you don't
44:54
put your seat belt. Yeah.
44:56
And a sense that maybe sometimes.
44:58
Since the math. Or yeah, no, but what I'm saying
45:01
is it's what I'm what I'm trying to say here is that it's all
45:05
about the importance of the event.
45:08
If it's something really important, you'll want a human
45:11
at the helm. But if it's just me going to, I
45:15
don't know, Italy, I don't speak Italian and I'm I'm I want a
45:18
coffee, then that's something else.
45:21
So I think that that's when humans come in because.
45:26
And also there's and when it comes to the intent.
45:30
For instance, if you are interpreting for a business
45:32
meeting, you want the meeting to succeed for your client.
45:36
So you want to make sure that you're interpreting in a way
45:38
that will convince the counterpart so your client can
45:41
get the contract the machine doesn't care about.
45:43
That. So if you can sell yourself as
45:46
someone who's a facilitator, not just an interpreter, then you'll
45:50
have a lot more success, because if not, you're going to be
45:52
simply replaced because you won't be deemed as.
45:54
Important. Well, and I think you know you
45:57
of the other sort of soft factor of just the level of trust and
46:03
clients who just want to throw some money at a problem and they
46:06
don't really care how it's solved, they just care that they
46:09
don't have to deal with it. Like totally different topic,
46:12
but my translation work is basically completely unaffected
46:15
by AI because my translation clients never cared about
46:19
technology and still don't know what they, what they want is to
46:23
pay somebody some money to so that they don't have to deal
46:26
with translation. And I think it's sort of like if
46:29
any of us think about say, like if you use an accountant, do you
46:33
particularly care whether your accountant accountant uses AI
46:36
tools to do your taxes? I don't really, because what I
46:39
want is for my taxes to be done accurately and most of all for
46:42
me to not have to deal with it. Actually, I'd be more concerned.
46:46
Right. Yeah.
46:47
I'd be more. I mean, if my accountant says
46:49
I've just to do your taxes, I'll go watch, I'll go to someone
46:53
else, right? I mean, no, I mean maybe as a
46:55
calculator, but not, you know, like there's so much
46:58
hallucination out there, right? And you, you called Canada
47:02
Revenue Agency and you called 10 times and you would get 20
47:05
different answers. That's true.
47:08
No, it's true. No, no, you're right.
47:10
And I think that's another thing for freelancers that's who are
47:13
starting off, it's have a good accountant and a good lawyer
47:17
too. Because you do want to have
47:19
someone check those contracts and make sure that you're not
47:21
getting screwed over. And you do want to make sure
47:24
that the numbers that you're declaring are the correct ones
47:27
so that you don't end up with a huge amount owing at the end of
47:32
your fiscal year. So yeah, that's another huge
47:35
thing that I think needs to be emphasized.
47:37
I learned the hard way. That's what I've mentioned in
47:39
and now. Only you only make that mistake
47:41
once. That's what I, you know, when I
47:44
have freelancers who say, like, I made more money than I thought
47:47
I was going to and now I owe $7000 in taxes, that I would
47:51
say, like the good news is you will only make that mistake
47:54
once. I mean, the bad news is you have
47:55
to figure out how to pay it now. But the good news is you will
47:57
never do that again. You may have to put your gently
48:00
on back on Kijiji or something. Actually, in your book, did you
48:06
only go, did you only go with what you thought or did you
48:11
interview some people or some agencies in order to find some
48:15
material for your? Book Oh, interesting question.
48:17
I mean, no, I did not specifically interview anybody,
48:21
but I think that, and I'm not saying this in any way to say
48:25
like, oh, I don't need to interview anyone because I know
48:28
everybody already. But I think it is true that like
48:31
I was on the board of the American Translators Association
48:35
for seven years and I was a president from 2017 to 2019.
48:40
And so I think in that capacity, by definition, you talked to
48:44
tons and tons of people in all aspects of the language
48:48
professions. And so I think because of that,
48:51
I have a pretty broad network. Like, I don't mean that by that,
48:54
like, oh, I know everyone, so I never have to ask, but I think,
48:58
you know, people ask me and tell me a lot of things because of
49:02
having served in those capacities that I think gives me
49:06
insight, you know, gives me better insights into those, you
49:10
know, types of situations. Like for example, what's the
49:13
situation with automated interpreting at the European
49:17
Union entity as well? Like I talked to a lot of, I
49:20
don't know that myself, but I talked to a lot of people who
49:22
work in international institutions and hear what they
49:24
say. That's what I liked a lot about
49:27
the in person interpretation too, is that when you're working
49:30
with a colleague, you know, you have a lot of stuff time to, you
49:35
know, catch up and breaks and lunch and stuff like that and
49:37
you can end up talking about all those things.
49:39
So they're really like informal interviews that you can add to
49:43
your book if you're going to write a book.
49:47
And so, but I thought it was very interesting.
49:52
Even more, I think that even more experienced interpreters
49:55
out there can also learn from your book.
50:00
I think it's always great. I think that we should always
50:02
think we're new at something, although we're not always
50:05
because this, because if you think that you know everything,
50:08
that's when somebody else comes behind you and may take your
50:12
market. So I would also encourage
50:14
interpreting agencies who have never been on the freelance side
50:19
to take a look at it to see what it is like for freelancers to
50:23
get into the market and survive in the market really.
50:26
Interesting. Thank you.
50:27
Yeah, great comments. Yeah, alright, so we're we're
50:33
already at the 50 ish minutes. This was a fascinating
50:39
conversation. Yes, it was awesome.
50:41
Thank you. Yeah, I always enjoy talking to
50:43
you guys. Keep up the great work.
50:46
Well, thank you very much so everyone don't forget like
50:50
share, subscribe you're you can find us on YouTube, Apple Music,
50:55
Spotify and Amazon Music now. So there are no excuses.
51:01
You gotta watch and listen to everyone of our.
51:04
Podcast just go Alexa play found in your interpretation or.
51:09
Siri, careful, it's gonna start. Internet, I know and looking at
51:12
my phone. All right, everyone.
51:14
Thank you. Thank you.
51:16
Alright, thanks and see you next.
51:17
Time, take care. Bye.