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Perfectionism, Pressure, and the Gay Overachiever · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Motherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. Today I am your host. My name is Michael Diorio and we are talking about overachieving gays. We're going to be talking to all the high achieving gay men out there. The guys who are driven, ambitious, passionate, the go getters. But maybe secretly you may also be struggling with perfectionism or feel the deep pressure to do well. Maybe you fear falling behind and perhaps struggle with burnout. What we want you to get out of the episode today is a new way of relating to your ambition. One that gives you permission to still be driven and make the impact you want to make, but also doing so without being powered by shame, fear, or this constant pressure to always have to be impressive. Joining me today is Scott Stewart. He is the founder and CEO of Venture for Canada, award winning LGBTQ changemaker, and author of the Uncertainty Advantage. Scott has spent the last decade helping over 10,000 young people reach their full potential through entrepreneur skill building, leadership and mindset development. Scott, welcome to the show.
• 1:21
  Speaker B: Thanks for having me on.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: Awesome. By the way, viewers and listeners, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, please support the show by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, all you got to do is tap that thanks button to show us some love. Okay, I like to start off these episodes by giving you a little bit of a background as to why I wanted to talk about this specific topic and why I chose Scott to be here today. Help me with it. So, like a lot of guys out there, I do consider myself someone who puts a lot of value on high quality things being done right, things being done well, productivity. I'm a go getter, I'm ambitious, all these things. But that has a shadow side like we talked about. Sometimes for me, this can slip easily into perfectionism and validation, validation, chasing and other things. But fortunately, you know, now I have the tools, which we'll talk about a bit later in this episode, that keep me grounded and centered when I find myself slipping into these old patterns. And I see this happening with a lot of guys out there, specifically gay guys, which again, we'll talk about that in just a sec as well. And so I want to start off the episode today by giving everyone out there a little bit of a background into how I turned into this you know, high achiever, overachiever, whatever word you want to use. And then, and then Scott will perhaps do the same and share a bit of his background as well, because this is a personal topic for both of us. So growing up, I learned very early, and I've shared this a bit before on the podcast, that being the good boy in my family earned me praise. I was good at school, I got good grades, I was well behaved. My sister was the wild child, I was the good boy. And I liked it. I liked getting that acknowledgement and feeling loved and acknowledged by my family, by my teachers. So it became a big part of how I defined myself and how I define my self worth. Now I wasn't good at everything, of course, so anything I wasn't naturally good at, like sports for example, I was afraid of. And I became very good at staying away from those things and staying very much in the realm of the things that I was good at, things that I could shine and things that I could be really good at and I would be terrified of anything else. Right. So for example, I wasn't really good at being silly or funny. I was isn't my thing. I felt awkward and weird, so I just didn't do that. I was kind of a serious kid most of the time. I didn't like trying new things, even with my friends, wanted to play a new game. I was like, oh no, no, I don't, I don't, I don't know this game. How am I going to win it? So I was afraid of trying new things like that. You know, I put a lot of pressure on myself to maintain that good boy image. Not just good boy, I would say even like golden boy image. Like I just wanted to be the best at everything and just really earn that spot. But you know, it kept me safe. I played only in the areas that I, I knew how to play, that I would do well and it kept me hidden. There's a lot of things I didn't get to experience or wouldn't allow myself to experience, even though they might fun and they might have been very valuable growth opportunities. So you know, as I said in my family, I wasn't the youngest of three. My sister was a so very sociable, wild child kind of girl and my brother was the athletic one. So they had their things. I was neither of those. So I found my place as that good boy. So that's how for me, my identity got completely wrapped up in this external achievement and validation seeking. Internally, of course, I was carrying the story deep down inside. That I was bad, sinful, wrong, broken. And of course, all this is to do the fact that I was attracted to men. I had a same sex attraction. I knew that very early on in my life and I knew that that was not acceptable. So of course I would never know it at the time, but I was carrying a lot of shame. And that shame was fueling this need to be, you know, perfect on the outside because it was kind of filling the void of being imperfect on the inside. At least that's the story I was telling myself. Now, even after I came out, I came out at the age of 19, even after I came out, that internal shame didn't disappear. It's not like I came out of the closet and the shame flew away. It stayed within me and I just started to outrun it in different ways. I got a job in the wealth management in a big office tower downtown. You know, in my family, that's like making it. You've made it once you've done that. I climbed the corporate ladder. I bought a house, the car, went on exotic vacations. I had the boyfriend, the body, and ticked all those boxes. All those boxes that externally society would have you believe is where your happiness and self worth comes from. And yet under all that quote unquote success, I was still very fragile, deeply fragile. I was burning out, I was burnt out, still terrified of things like failure, rejection and criticism. Even if it wasn't real, even if it was perceived, I would be very scared of that. And so, you know, it always felt like I was waiting for the other shoe to drop in my life. And I couldn't just like breathe and rest into this amazing life that I had built. You would think that I was just living the life, and it looked like that on the outside, but there was a lot of pressure and burnout within. Now the other shoe did, in fact eventually drop. It was maybe not in the way you'd expect, but it was, it was, you know, what I would call a dark night of the soul period of my life. It started with a breakup and it kind of, you know, it was about a year, year and a half long. And it cracked me open in a way that I needed it. It allowed that golden boy, good boy shell to break right off. And then from that breaking, the real Michael emerged slowly over time. And it forced me to, like many dark night of the soul periods, it forced me to have a good hard look at me, at my life, to face the things that I had been ignoring, such as that desperate drive for validation and quote, unquote success. Not just in my professional life, but even in my personal life as well. Right. In fact, it even questioned how I defined what is success. What does that even mean? I was using someone else's definition, not my own. Right. And so for me, that era, yeah, but probably about a year and a half or so, I became very intentional about the man I wanted to be and the kind of life I wanted to live. And so this version of me that you're hearing and seeing today is similar in many ways. I still have that ambition, still got that drive. I'm still a go getter. I still have a very high value for quality and excellence in anything I do. I still love success, I love winning, I love achieving things. That's still there. But the big difference is I'm no longer defining my self worth by them. And that is the big shift. And that's why I want to have this conversation with Scott and all of you guys here today who are listening because I think this, that my story probably isn't too, too far off of a lot of people out there. So Scott, that's why I brought you on today to talk about this. So maybe for the viewers and listeners out there who don't know your story, tell us a little bit of your story as well.
• 8:20
  Speaker B: And first off, a huge thanks to you as well for sharing your story. I had chills in some of the parts when you were saying because I think it your experiences were things that resonated a lot with me and in my life and things I still grapple with today. So I appreciate you sharing your experiences because I a great way to start off the conversation, some context about myself. Grew up in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia on the east coast. And I always knew that I was different as well from like a little boy. I also hated sports and was always like the last person to be like selected for every like sports activity. I grew up in a place that loved hockey, like really loved hockey and I didn't, can't even skate, hated hockey. Yeah as a kid I liked the trading cards. But beyond that I really did not ever like this sport. And to this day I'm not really a hockey person. Although other sports I've grown to like more. And when I was a kid in elementary school, early junior high school, I went through some pretty bad bullying and it did I think really a number in terms of my own like self worth of there were a couple of years where I really felt like I had like no friends like in the world and that felt that was brutal like like we are social creatures and when we feel completely isolated from everyone else, it is such a hard thing. And it can make you as a kid feel like you're really alone and that you're not worth anything. And luckily I had parents who always had my back, who championed me. And when I was in grade seven, I kind of switched schools and the new school that I went to was a much better fit and ended up kind of finding more of my folks. I ended up becoming friends with someone who I'm still friends with today who is also gay. But we didn't, we weren't out at the time when we met when we were 12, but he was really my first good friend and you know, sort of fast track a little bit more in my life. I end up going to Georgetown University in the United States, a very competitive place to get into a very competitive environment in general. And I would increasingly can I measure my self worth based on accomplishments. So in high school it would be, you know, getting good IB scores or getting into a prestigious university or winning a bunch of debating tournaments. At Georgetown it would be, you know, getting, you know, really good grades or getting like an internship at a prestigious place. So I ended up getting a job at Goldman Sachs, which is the place that everyone often, you know, a lot of people want to work there. It's really hard to get a job at Goldman Sachs. And when I was there I began to have this sort of crisis of like, okay, I've gone to Georgetown, I work at Goldman Sachs in Manhattan, but I'm not happy. And I ended up going to leave there to go found venture for Canada, which I think connect a lot more to my kind of authentic self. And it's been an amazing run over the last 11 years. And during COVID I experienced some pretty significant mental health at challenges getting diagnosed with ocd. And the therapist I worked with was like, Scott, I think one of your main challenges is you're super perfectionistic. Like you equate your self worth with winning. And to tie it back to my childhood experience, I think there's something really deep in my identity where I only valued myself by winning and by getting external validation. And it's still something that can be like a challenge. It's not like it goes away and to kind of tie it all together. Where I'm at in my current stage of life is how do you continue to strive and to be better? Because I like that and I think it's actually healthy what went done, but how do I do in a way that I'm not equating my self worth with. With doing so. And it's a balance. There's no, like, perfect formula, but I think it's something a lot of gay men struggle with, is valuing themselves way too much based on external validation. That's something I've struggled with. And, and you know, I think it goes back to bullying experiences I had and shame and feeling like the way to. To deal with that shame is by getting the external validation. I remember I listened to something recently. It was talking about the extent to which we as a species or humans will try to go through all these things to avoid feeling difficult feelings. And I think a lot of. In some ways in the same, in the same vein that sometimes people can pursue addictive substances to not feel things. I think some people will get addicted to, like, success. Dopamine hits to avoid the difficult feelings out there.
• 13:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, bingo. Yeah, exactly. That's correct. I want to go back to your story for a sec, though, Scott. Was there, was there any specific tipping point for you when you had that realization that, like, oh, hey, wait a minute, this is not sustainable for me. Like, I cannot keep striving and achieving this way and live a healthy, fulfilling life. Like, what was your tipping point?
• 13:53
  Speaker B: I remember in this was early 2020, I was just diagnosed with OCD. And when you get diagnosed with OCD, the main way you get treated is through this intensive thing called exposure and ritual prevention therapy. And what's kind of unique about it is it's like intense for like two or three months and then it like, ends. So it's not like you do treat, but it's really intense for like two months. Like, it takes like, it can take like three or four hours a day. So it's like a very intense thing. And I remember right at the beginning of the treatment period lying in my bed and it was like a February day, it was really sunny out. The bedroom has, like a fair amount of light coming in. And just thinking and had all these fears about, oh, what about this happening? What about this happening? And then I was like, yeah, you know what, what, what if I'm just like. Like, I just would say, yes, I'm going to fail at all of these things. And I just like started to visualize that and just to accept that, like, and then I'd be like, well, I'm. I'm still going to be okay. Like, even if I don't, even if all of the professional things I do end up being a failure, I can still have like a fruitful and interesting and fulfilling life. And there was something that was profoundly peaceful about recognizing.
• 15:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, that is the answer, I would say for, for me as well. But it's a very, it's. It's. It sounds so simple to say it out loud, but it's actually quite, quite difficult to practice. So we will later on in the episode give our viewers and listeners some of our favorite tools that, that we have used for that. But yeah, I think for a lot of people that hamster wheel eventually becomes very. It can burn you out. It can be exhausting. Eventually you come to realize this is not sustainable for me. Now some people don't realize that until far later in their life and there might be like a lot of collateral damage like in terms of relationships and other areas of their life that they may have ignored to continually satisfy and satiate that drive for that dopamine hit that, you know, like in my case and in your case was really driven by or fueled by this just void within us that just told us we weren't enough or we weren't good or our worthiness only came from these external things like achievements and degrees and you know, jobs and all these things. Even in the gig world. Things like your. We've talked about this a lot on the podcast, you know, your body image, how many followers you have on Instagram, all these things that are the source for a lot of people's sense of self and self worth.
• 16:15
  Speaker B: Totally. And I. It manifests in many ways. I think for me it manifests into kind of like professional accomplishment. But I think like you know, instagaze are just a. Channeling it in a different way. And you know, I think that there's, there's. We talked about in the pre show the concept of velvet rage.
• 16:34
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 16:35
  Speaker B: And I think it can like be. Desire for external validation in gay men can manifest itself not just in professional accomplishments, but in so many other kinds of validation seeking behaviors.
• 16:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, there's no shortage of ways, that's for sure. Especially in this, in this culture it's not just a gay thing. Right. I mean even straight people have this, have this desire to look at other people around them and want, want to do better, want to do well. But the gay version is a very specific flavor of it, which is what we're talking about here today. And I think that I see that a lot with gay men more than straight men. I would say to just this, this pressure. People tell me there's just this pressure to be impressive, to be successful, to be put together, to, to have it all to, to show everyone you have it together, like all of the stuff. And yeah, it comes from. It comes from maybe that gay wound and like in the Velvet Rage, that internal void. But I think it's made worse, Scott, from, like, the culture we're in, especially these days with social media and things like Instagram, where we are comparing ourselves to other people. And I think I'd even go as far as, say, is competing with each other.
• 17:42
  Speaker B: I think this conversation makes me think of, like, the meme where if you have like, two gay men in, like, a broader group, like, there's a T pass, it's that they're either going to become good friends or they're going to become intense, like enemies. Yeah, it's both like a meme. But I also think it can be sometimes kind of true from my experience. And. And I think it comes down to sometimes that shame kind of like, piece. I think for many people it's like, okay, if you have two gay men in, like, a group, there can be a tendency for those two people to, like, compare themselves to each other and to kind of like one up one another. And that's not the, you know, it's not to blame gay men for it, but it's to say that I think that the desire for external validation can, I think, sometimes create challenges in gay friendships, which I know you've talked about a little bit on the show. This kind of the French, like, the platonic friendships that can exist between gay men.
• 18:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is that so many gay men end up on this hamster wheel, like, specifically to the, you know, maybe career ambition, professional achievement. That. That one. Specifically why do we end up on this hamster wheel of wanting to be good in that professional sense or, you know, achievement sense and wanting to win at life. What's that about?
• 19:04
  Speaker B: I think that if you feel like you're deeply, like, broken or you're ashamed of who you are, then you need to feel good about yourself. And then the way to do it is through external validation.
• 19:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. Were we chatting, Scott, in the pre show as well, about their being, you know, if you look at like, CEOs and people who have done really, really well in life, a lot of them are actually gay. It's like a higher proportion of people who are gay. Is that true?
• 19:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's a great octagon that was written around a decade ago called the Best Little Boy in the World.
• 19:36
  Speaker A: And yes, thank you.
• 19:38
  Speaker B: It was similar. His piece talks about kind of like, similar to your experience of like, so many gay men. Or your gay boy. Like little boys that are different will like try to just be the perfect little child because they feel ashamed of themselves. So they just are the ones who aren't bad in school, who do really well academically, who excel at everything. And in this op ed, I believe he states that like 30% of people, like 30% of men at like Ivy League institutions are gay. And even my experience, the gayest place that I experienced probably in my life was like Goldman Sachs, I guess, a workplace, if you wouldn't think a lot of people would be surprised. And there's a lot of like alpha male type people, actually many of whom are gay. But there's also, you know, there's a stereotype that it's like, yeah, it's this like sort of not very gay friendly kind of place. And it probably, it definitely was in the past, but today I, my, my experience, like, I felt gays were way overrepresented in the context of Wall street than in a lot of other places that I had worked in. And I think it's because a lot of what Goldman Sachs offers, prestige, money, social validation, working extreme hours is something that is very aligned with a certain kind of perfectionistic gay man.
• 21:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. And another thing I was thinking about, like I said, even after I came out, it's not like, oh, it was like this. Oh, because I'm closeted. And no shame. That wasn't like, even after I came out fully out loud and proud, everyone knew I was gay. It was a, it was a, if I'm going to be gay, well, at least I'll be successful to my family, right? Like, okay, well, you know, I'm going to be the gay kid. Fine. But you know what? I'm going to be super successful and I'm going to have a great job and I'm going to show them. It's almost like it's making up for this lack within me that I'm going to be successful.
• 21:37
  Speaker B: I think even after you come out, I think internalized shame is something that it's like, it never like, goes away. It's something you talked about in the podcast. And yeah, it's something you have to cope with for a long time. And I think one of the opportunities for gay men is how do you build like a career that's interesting, a life that's interesting, a life that's like, impactful, and how do you strive but do so in a way that is not all about external validation? And I think the advice I'd have for listeners and for myself is to strive based on the intrinsic motivation and saying, I want to do this because I want to create something amazing. Even in the context of my book that is coming out. I've thought about this as I should be happy about just, I created a good book. I shouldn't be like, okay, I need to sell as many as possible and get the external validation. And people be like, oh, my God, you're amazing. And by the way, this conversation is kind of therapeutic for me, actually, in thinking about it, because I was like, yeah, you know, I'm probably getting a little too pulled in to the extrinsic rewards. And I think for gay mail listeners, it's really important to try to be mindful of when are this sort of the boogeyman of the extrinsic motivation. Motivation, extrinsic rewards beginning to pull you in. Because it can be pretty darn sneaky. Like, even if you feel like you've got it tamed, it can come back in surprising ways.
• 23:16
  Speaker A: And you know what? I, I say this a lot. Like, there's nothing wrong with external validation. We're social creatures. We love it. We, we, we, we need that to some degree to, like, understand our place in the world. But the issue is when it's the only thing, when it's the only way. And, you know, we talk about the, the two taps, the external validation and the internal one, and, you know, intrinsic, as you said there, Scott, like it. If you only have one tap, that external one, you are going to dedicate your entire entire life to what other people think of you and getting approval and chasing it and seeking it. And other people are not great, not great at that, Pretty unreliable. Whereas when you can enjoy that external validation, when you get it, like, if you do something great and you write a great book and you sell millions of copies, good for you. Like that. Enjoy all that, receive all that. But also make sure the first tap is that internal one where you can look at yourself in the mirror without any of that praise and say, I'm really proud of the work I did here. I'm really proud that I took this idea and it is now a book. And everything that, Everything that it took within you to make that happen, right? Whether that was courage or vulnerability or sharing your story or hard work and discipline, like that has to be, in my humble opinion, the first place we get that validation, and then everything else that comes on top of that is just a cherry on top.
• 24:30
  Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. It's a very good reminder for me at this specific point in, in my life. And it's, you know, I think the other thing too is when you let extrinsic motivators control you, you can't control the extrinsic.
• 24:45
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 24:46
  Speaker B: But you can control the intrinsic. And if you're giving up your validation, your value to other people, that's not a good situation. Like, you want to be the master of your own destiny. You want to be motivated by intrinsic motivation rather than extrinsic.
• 25:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, especially if that. If that. You know, if we look back to the kind of the pain point, the problem here was that if it's an internal shame, an internal void within you of not good enough or whatever your story may be, you can't solve an internal problem with an external solution. It just doesn't work. As, as I've learned and as you've learned, like the internal solution has to be, as you just said, from within you has to be intrinsic. It can't. It's not sustainable for it to be on the outside.
• 25:28
  Speaker B: Totally. I completely agree.
• 25:30
  Speaker A: All right, let's pause here for audience engagement. If you guys are watching us on YouTube, go ahead and drop in the comments. Share with us. How does this show up for you? What, what areas in your life do you see yourself wanting to be, you know, the best at, or wanting to win at or achieve for all of our, you know, high achievers out there? Let us know what that looks like for you. And if you are enjoying the conversation we're having here, I want to invite you to one of our weekly events within the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences with other members of the community and listeners of the podcast. And we also have connection circles, which is smaller, bit more intimate, and that's where I'll be there. And I put you guys in breakout rooms of three, similar to how we do here on the podcast. And you get to discuss all these topics with other members of the community in a kind of fun and structured and a bit more informal way where you can actually connect with other people. So if you're interested in these events, please go to gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, that's totally okay. Just make sure you get on our email list and we will email you all of the zoom links to attend. Okay, let's continue talking, Scott, about this other side of the shame fueled perfectionism and overachieving. You know, I want to Reiterate for everyone out there that you don't need to throw away that desire and that ambition within you. I think it's a beautiful thing. I'd love, actually happen to love working with guys who, who have that, who have a desire, who want that fuel, who have big goals and dreams that like, just fills me up with so much energy in a good way. And ironically, you know, what I don't want to see is people shaming themselves for having big dreams and big goals. That defeats the whole purpose of this. So let's talk about it. What does ambition look like when it's actually coming from a grounded, you know, quote unquote healthy place versus when it's being driven by shame, fear, or perfectionism?
• 27:17
  Speaker B: There are a couple different elements of healthy striving. One is that you focus more on the journey rather than the destination, because you can influence the journey, the destination. There's a lot of things that can happen that are out of your control. The second is that like we were talking about earlier, you're more motivated by your intrinsic, like, motivators. Happy you're doing something because you want to do great work rather than you want to get, like, rewarded by other people saying, oh my God, you're amazing, or that you become famous. A final aspect of healthy striving versus perfectionism is that you recognize that failure is a part of life, that you're not always going to win. And that part of living a meaningful life is taking risks and making mistakes. So people who are perfectionistic really struggle when they mess up, they get angry, they get hard on themselves. And it's important when you're, as a healthy striver to recognize healthy striving means sometimes failing. It means sometimes messing up.
• 28:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, failure, tolerance. That's what I had to work on. Not just failure, but rejection, criticism, any even constructive feedback. I. I was very fragile in those early days and I couldn't handle any of it because it was what my shame story would use to say. Told you, told you, you suck. Told you you're not good enough. And it would, I would, I would beat the shit out of myself internally. I was, I was the one who was the problem. My own mind was being used against me or I was using my own mind against me. So yes, I think that has been such an important skill is learning, especially as an entrepreneur. I don't work in the corporate world anymore. So as an entrepreneur, you. You fail a lot. You fail a lot and fail big. And at least in, in what I do, I fail very publicly. And so People remind me a lot. And so I had to really develop not only a thicker skin, more importantly than that, self love. And. And, you know, as you had just said, they're like, learning how to treat myself kindly. Even if the result or the outcome was a complete and utter failure to say, you know what, this really sucks. I'm really disappointed, but I'm so proud of you. I'm talking to me here for showing up and for doing it. Like, at least you did it. Like, you showed up, you got your ass handed to you. But, like, think of all. Like, think of people who are just, you know, I call it sitting on the sidelines of their lives, wishing and hoping that they could do something, and they just don't because, like me, they were too afraid to put themselves in the position where they could risk failure or looking silly or being humiliated or being embarrassed. This, for so many people is like, the worst thing in the world. But when you come to terms with the fact that, yeah, you're going to get humiliated, embarrassed, and then you know what, you're going to pick yourself up, you're going to dust yourself off, and you're going to love yourself, you're going to sit on the silence for a little bit to, like, you know, catch your breath, and then go back right out there and do it. So that's been. I think one of my skills is failure tolerance and rejection tolerance and just tolerance to criticism from the inside.
• 30:18
  Speaker B: There's a great quotation from former President Theodore Roosevelt where he talks about the main and the arena and importance of just putting yourself out there. And it's easy. There's lots of people who aren't in the arena who will say, oh, I would do it that way, but I would 10 out of 10 rather be the man in the arena than the person watching the man in the arena. Yeah, and part of being in the arena means you're going to, like, mess up. And like, in the context of book writing, I think about, okay, some people. There's one person I met with, like a week ago, and he said, oh, I didn't like your book. And I've heard from way more people like positive things, but you can fixate on that. Oh, the one person who said they didn't like it, part of me was reflecting, well, you know what? I wrote a book. I'm in the arena, and I'm doing these podcast interviews. I'm doing things where not everything I'm going to say is going to land perfectly. And that's okay, because I'd rather be in the arena making mistakes than be on the sidelines wishing I was in the arena.
• 31:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. I talked to a lot of guys, as I say that people who tend to find me have a lot of that drive and ambition. And I asked them, like, what, what. What would you do differently if you weren't afraid of failure or if you weren't afraid of criticism? Like, oh, my God, I would do this, and then I would do this, and then I would do this. And I'm like, yeah. And when you take those actions, what's most likely to be the. The impact of that? And they're like, yeah, I would have this thing that I want, whether it's a book or whatever your big goal or dream is. And that's it. I'm like, that's. That's the secret. That's the secret sauce, my friend. That's what we're going to work on. We're going to work on developing that skills so that it's not like if perfection is the goal, you're never going to get it right, because, like we said, you can't please everyone, and everyone's going to have an opinion. So you just got to focus on, you know, the people that you do want to serve or the people that you, you know, Scott, want to write to, people who are going to get that message, and it's not going to be everyone ever. And so you just got to focus on who. Who really matters the most.
• 32:15
  Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. I think that that's really important advice. And, yeah, it's important to just take risks and put yourself out there. And I think on a broader point, I'm not a relationship expert, but I think it's a challenge that, like, a lot of gay men can sometimes have is, like, putting yourself in the arena also in terms of, like, emotional vulnerability and, like, relationships. My husband and I have been together for, like, around a decade, and we married for two years. Yeah. Our host together for six. Like, we've been together for a long time. And I think that there's some, like, this concept of, like, being in the arena, I think also applies to, like, being, like, not just, like, careers, but to be emotionally vulnerable in forming relationships with. With other people. And, you know, I would encourage, like, a listener if you're thinking about this concept, it doesn't just apply to, like, careers. I think it also applies to romantic relationships. It applies to, like, life in general. Just, I think there's a lot of it. Sometimes one of the coping mechanisms of the shame is, like, being sarcastic and like, walling yourself off from people and not being, like, vulnerable. And so think about, listener. Like, think about embracing being in the arena, not just in terms of your career, but in terms of your life and your relationships with other people.
• 33:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny you say that. I just sent out last Friday. I do a weekly newsletter to my subscribers, and that was the topic. It was. I called it Falling in Love with the Brakes On. And so many people want these relationships on that deep intimacy in their personal life, yet they approach dating or just relating with others with walls. I'm like, well, you can't have the intimacy if you got a wall there blocking you. Right? So, yeah, fabulous point. This. This applies in all areas of life.
• 34:00
  Speaker B: And even on social media, it's been interesting. Like, I have had more traction on the last kind of, like, couple weeks on social media, like specifically LinkedIn, than I've ever had in my entire, like, life. And it's because I leaned into, like, being very authentic and talking about very challenging times that I've had in my life. So I talked about, like, a low point in terms of dealing with OCD four and a half years ago that I never talked about publicly. I talked about coming out of the closet and, like, the challenges and, like, you know, coming out of student bar and like, like, some of these. And I had so many people reach out to me. Like, I had a guy reach out to me being, like, I just came out to my friend group for the first time. Like, thanks so much when I had the OCD challenge, but I didn't talk about that. I had this woman reach out to me who I barely knew, who was. Gave me all this context about her current business challenges. And she was like, this is what I needed to hear today. What I shared with this is my reflection even from the last couple weeks, is a. If you want to connect people with people on social media, lean into being authentic. Don't just post travel pictures, which is the past. Like, I did try to be your authentic self, and that's how you build relationships with other people. And the other part is that when you're authentic, I think when you're vulnerable, when you put yourself in the arena, people are way more likely to engage with you in a meaningful way than if you're creating this, like, fake version of yourself that I. And I think for a long time I felt that pressure to put this, like, fake version of myself versus now I'm leaning more of, like, this is, like, the real version of myself. And I think part of it's a little bit of aging. Like, I'm not that old. I'm 34 now. But I feel if I was to look at myself at 34 versus 24, I'm a lot more like, kind of no shits. Like, I'm just going to, like, say what I, you know, feel then versus 24. I felt like I had more of a need to show a curated version of myself.
• 35:48
  Speaker A: I can say that's been true for me. I'm 42. So let's have this conversation. When you're at 42 and I'm at whatever that would be for me, 50, I guess. But, yeah, I think that. I think that's very true. I think there's a lot of, I don't know, maybe it's growth maturing that goes on. You just realize what matters and what doesn't. But yeah, like, the more you do that and show up as real, which, by the way, you know, when we say the word authentic, it sounds very nice. But what we're talking about here, people, is like being fallible, being flawed, right? Not saying the right words. You know what times I will do a podcast or do something on social media and be like, oh, God, I sounded so stupid. I could have said that so much better. But do I, like, old me would have gone back and redone the whole thing, re recorded it. I like, make it so that I edit it. So that's just so I don't do that anymore. I'm like, this is. This is what came out of me at the time. And so that's what it is. But to your point, Scott, that is what makes people relatable, because we sense their fallibility or their realness with our own, and it makes us feel safer. It's like, oh, wait, if they can do it like that, then I can do it like that. And now I can just breathe and, like, drop my guard a little bit. Because he doesn't have to be perfect. And so neither do I. And that's just a more pleasant experience for all of us.
• 36:56
  Speaker B: I agree. And I think a lot of older generations, like, when I think of our, like, grandparents generations, it was very much like, set up. Like, you cannot talk about mental health challenges or challenges, like, in general in a public setting. And not as many people did it. And I think a lot of people of kind of our generation is. It's kind of breaking through that it's changing the culture so that it is way more socially acceptable to be like, I had a really significant mental health challenge for a period of Time or I have struggled with perfectionism because it's. The more that people are open about their experiences, I think the more that it invites other people. I'll share just on a final thing is part of what kind of helped me realize that I needed mental health support in terms of OCD was listening to a podcast with this guy named Brad Feld, who is a successful entrepreneur. And he talked about getting diagnosed with OCD and going through exposure to ritual prevention therapy. And then six months later, I was having significant mental health challenges. And I was like, oh, wait, that Brad Fell podcast. He talked about that, and I was like, that kind of seems like what I have in terms of challenges. I should check out what this exposure and racial prevention therapy is. So, by the way, if you're interested in. If you think you might have ocd, it's a good thing to check out. But I share that in the sense that whether it's OCD or someone talking about any kind of challenge, there's so much learning that others can have when people are just open about the experiences, the good and the bad, that happen in their life.
• 38:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, I run men's groups fairly frequently, and that is the point. I'll just say it bluntly. Like, that is the point of having these men's groups, at least for me, as a facilitator. I. It's so nice to bring people in, and, you know, people show up there, they have no idea who else is going to be in the group. There's usually like 10 to 15 guys, and everyone's scared. Who are these people are going to judge me? Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. I don't belong here. We all have that same story, and yet within a few weeks, it's like, oh, my gosh, I totally belong here. Yes, we're very different, and we have different backgrounds and different experiences, but so much similarity. And, you know, it gives us all permission to. To take a little bit of that. At least one or two of those layers out and off. So to that end, great segue. I am running a men's group in October. It's called Shamelessly Gay. A lot of people don't recognize, as we said earlier, shame as shame. So, you know, when I talk to people, I'm like, you know, what you have here is a big case of shame. Like, what, really? And that's when I would recommend a book like the Velvet Rage. At any rate, I digress. So it's called Shamelessly Gay, and it's a space where men who are interested in doing this work that we've been talking about here today, can come together alongside others who get it. And you don't have to figure this out alone. I'm there guiding you through all the tools that have helped me and my clients shift from, you know, that hustle, pressure, shame story, whatever it may be, perfectionism, into something that is a bit more soft, authentic, relatable, feels good, feels grounded, and most of all, sustainable. So it's five weeks, you know, we go through recognizing what shame might look like. We'll talk a whole week about perfectionism and the need for external validation. So this conversation will come in very handy. We talk about self trust and move more into that self trust, which is more intrinsic. We'll talk about emotional intimacy. And then finally we'll do a week on creating an intentional life. So if you're listening and you think that this is something you'd want to be interested in, I'll put the link in the show notes or you can just DM me to learn more. Scott, let's talk about shame as a source of fuel. So we both know that because it's kind of never ending. It's like this never ending source of fuel within you. And it can be. And it was for me. I was actually very good at using my, you know, not good enough story to fuel so much of my early quote unquote success because that need to prove myself was my motivation. But once your self worth is no longer measured by this external success, then the question becomes how do you maintain that motivation and that drive?
• 40:53
  Speaker B: It's a great question. And I think that one of the ways is like what we were talking about earlier, it's through that intrinsic kind of drive. So it's doing good work because you want to do good work, not because people are going to compliment you or see on social media that you're amazing. I think a part of it too is reflecting a little bit. And I talked about this in my book, the uncertainty advantage is the importance of reflecting on like, what is your life like mission statement. So for me, it's to help others achieve their full potential. It's a pretty broad mission statement. A lot of the times people think a mission statement is just for a company. There's not that many people actually know who go through the exercise of thinking about what is the mission statement for their life. And it's amazing because we spend all this time, we put all this effort in and people just kind of go in, day in, day out, but they don't really reflect on the why? What is the thing that's actually kind of driving them? And another thing I talk about in the Uncertainty Advantage is the importance of reflecting on what are your values. So think about difficult situations. What are the values that help guide you through those challenging moments or experiences? And so to recap, there's three things I would recommend as to drive you in place of extrinsic rewards. The first are intrinsic kind of drivers. The second is the importance of, sorry, this part we can end up, but basically I'm trying to think what was the other. It reminds me of the US presidential debate from like 12 years ago where you list the three things. So anyway, I'll skip through that part. But essentially I think that you need to focus more on the intrinsic kind of drivers and what makes you tick rather than being driven by extrinsic rewards.
• 42:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, if you remember them, just we can come back to them. We didn't talk about this and, and I wanted to make a note of it is that, you know, that burnout and exhaustion that so many people, you know, I asked you earlier, what was your tipping point? For a lot of people, their tipping point is, is that they burn out, they fade, they fizzle, they have health, like literal health impacts. They're exhausted. And that's their tipping point where they say, I can't keep this up anymore. And so, you know, a lot of people say to me that question I asked you, like, if, if my motivation isn't coming from that, then I won't be motivated anymore. I, I'm going to lose my drive, I'm going to lose the edge, I'm going to lose that thing that gets me this. And it's, it's interesting because they think they're not going to work hard anymore or they think they're going to lose that. But in fact I found that the opposite is true in that it's, it's still there, but it's not, it's not a desperate need. And we, I think we've just become so used to it being this desperate thing that takes over us that when it like gets turned, I'm not going to say turned down a notch. It's not really turned down, it's just different. It's like a different fuel tank. Right. Altogether. Then you don't burn out and you don't, you don't get exhausted because you kind of learn to listen to yourself and you've developed that self trust. And I think for a lot of people who still achieve and have that drive and ambition, they're Doing so now with a much softer like they, they'll take breaks. I mean, I was just telling Scott before we jumped on today, like it's summer at the time of recording and I'm working like three and a half days a week now. Old Michael would have been like, absolutely not. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose the edge here over, you know, all these things. I have to do more and produce more and like now's my time, but not, not anymore. And I'm like, it is summertime here in Canada. We don't have a long one. And I am going to be at the beach and, and I'm going to soften my pressure that I put on myself to always achieve and earn and whatever the story is. So tell us a little bit about that, Scott. You know, in terms of burnout and fatigue.
• 44:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think it's important to think about the Life is a marathon punctuated by sprints. And what I mean by that is that sometimes there's times you do have to grind. You have to work really hard. Candidly, right now is a grind period for me because I have this book coming out. I'm still running Venture for Canada. It's like a lot of things that I feel like I'm juggling all at once and I have to push myself pretty hard. But then I'm actually leaving Venture for Canada the end of this year and then I'm going abroad for like two and a half months on like a big trip and it would be a nice like relaxation. I'll recharge. So to the point on healthy striving, it's important to reflect on like, yeah, sometimes you go, you're going to have to like push yourself really hard to achieve like your goals. I think in this conversation on work life balance, it's. Sometimes this is, oh well, I'm always going to be working like 9 to 5. But I think to achieve great things, sometimes you do have to work like 60, 70 hour weeks for a period of time. I think if I'm saying that to listener, like, if I was like, oh, you only need to work 30 hours for like the rest of your life, I would be lying. I don't think that that is like true. But I think to your point, Michael, there's periods of time where it makes sense to turn the dial like down and to relax and to like recharge. And for me that's this trip that's coming up and just to go back briefly because now I remember what My brain fart was while I was talking. It's funny sometimes when you have a list and then you're like, oh my God, shit, what's the second thing on the list? But just to go back to the personal mission statement and the values, it's so important to use those as like a guide, especially in uncertain kind of times, because I think that those are the things that will help you, like, drive you and ultimately I think, provide like a healthy source of motivation. Because it's ultimately your mission, it's your values. Those are intrinsic kind of factors at the core. And the more that you articulate to yourself what are your intrinsic drivers, like, I can just, I can say it's really important for intrinsic drivers to, to motivate you, but if you don't know what your intrinsic drivers are, it's tough for that. Like, then you're going to be extrinsically driven. So you need to do the work, the reflection to figure out what those intrinsic drivers are for you.
• 46:40
  Speaker A: That is such a good point. Yeah. Like, if you don't do that work yourself, it'll be by default. And by default it's going to be external because that's how we're raised, right? So make this tangible for us. If you, if you care to share, it would be great. You know, share with us your values and your intrinsic drivers. That way the viewers and listeners can kind of get an idea for what it sounds like in an actual person.
• 47:01
  Speaker B: So the mission at a broad level to kind of rehash is to help others achieve their full potential. My personal values are integrity, inclusiveness, curiosity and ambition. And what that means is like, as I, let's say in the context of like, next, you know, if I want to launch like a new business, it's thinking about those four values and what does it mean to me? So ambitious. That is like a value to me. Like, it is, you know, building something that is, you know, pushing the limit, that's moving things kind of like forward. Integrity, it means that you're like values, like first. So that means if you feel like someone is doing something that is not values aligned, like calling them out. I had a conversation yesterday with someone I know really well and I did not agree with something that he was doing and I had an uncomfortable conversation and I was like, I do not. This is not values aligned behavior to me. And so that's another way of like, it's, it's not just saying, oh, I have this value, but it's when like push comes to shove, when you see Something that you feel is wrong, you lean and actually thought I was like, one of my values is integrity. That means in this situation, I'm going to have an awkward conversation and say, no. I think that that is wrong and that is bad judgment and you can make whatever decision you're going to do, but I don't think that that's a good decision. And then for me, curiosity, like. And I think that's somewhat innate. Like, I am a very intellectually curious person and sell these books and I purposely kind of make it in my zoom background because it is a value for me. Like learning and reading and discovering things about the world is something that is really important to me. And that's why entrepreneurship, launching new things is. Probably attracts me because I like to learn. And then to that fourth part is of inclusiveness, is that I think, especially as a gay man, like, I. I care about situations where everybody can have the ability to thrive. And I believe in a society where there is freedom, where people can be free for who they are, to say what they think to. Yeah. To. To embrace their, like, authentic self and where there's various, you know, viewpoints. And so anyway, all of these things are important to me. And I think when I reflect on, like, my intrinsic drivers, they're really often correlated with entrepreneurial kind of behavior because I like ambition, I like learning, I like, you know, all of these things. And entrepreneurship offers those things to me.
• 49:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, such a good point. And things like productivity, you know, productivity is something that I think a lot of people want to get a lot done, you know, but I go by the work hard, play hard. Uh, I don't know if that's. I don't know what value would call that. But, you know, that's something that I, that I put a lot of value on is if I'm. And I talk about this a lot. Like, when I'm playtime Michael. Is playtime Michael. When I'm alone time, it is sacred, beautiful alone time. And when I'm working, I'm working hard. Not, not like beating myself up, though. In none of those cases, it's like working hard. To me, when I'm in that space, it comes with this joy, almost like a labor of love, as they say. And it could be hours at a time. I could work, you know, 50 hours in a week, but I'd be happy to do that. And again, it's knowing when my brain says, okay, enough. And that's, that's the trick is having that, that trigger within you to say this is, this isn't sustainable anymore, or I need to rest or I need to do something else, or I need to go hug my friend or have a laugh or do something else. Right. So can you give us any. Any tips on how people out there can do that? How they can develop that internal trigger within to say, okay, it's time for me to take a break. Time for me to switch it up.
• 50:44
  Speaker B: I think it's like being mindful of, like, how is your body, like, actually, like, feeling? And I'll share, like, you into something. Last night is like, I. I had to drive. I live in Toronto. I had to drive, like, north of the city, like, two and a half hours for the speaking thing on Saturday. And I was there for, like, seven hours. Then I drove back, so it was, like, an exhausting day. And then on Sunday, I ended up having to, like, work a ton on just getting things ready for this book launch on Tuesday. And my husband was flying in, and he was like, oh, can. Can you pick me up? And then there was just all these issues with this bag. So I like, if you live in Toronto, the Pearson Airport's a little bit chaotic when you're picking people up. I, like, circled, like, six times. And, like, then these really intense security guards were just keeping on like. Like, villa. And then at a certain point, I was like, I have a really busy day. We're only 15 minutes from the airport, like, drive. So it's not like a. It's not like I live in Oshawa, where it's like this massive Uber drive. So I just was like, you know what? For my own mental health, I'm really tired. I have a busy week coming up. I'm going home. You can take an Uber, because this bag thing, I'm not sure what's happening, and I can't, like, mentally, I was like, I cannot drive another six or seven times through the loop in the airport and that. And there's a degree. A part of me felt a little guilty. Like, am I being selfish? But I also realized that, you know, sometimes you have to put yourself first. And there's like. I realized I was like. I reached my limit of things that I could deal with, and so I was saying no. So the advice I'd have for listeners is that, like, it's feeling. It's. It's being mindful of how your body is feeling, and when you know you have reached the limit of what you can kind of handle and then just saying no to things. Sometimes you can't say no. But in a lot of cases, you can. And I think that's a challenge. A lot of perfectionists is they say yes to every, including myself. Even someone recently this morning invited me to join this book club and I was like, no, there's another book club that someone had invited me to, I'd been part of and I, and he, this person's very insistent about me staying part of it. And I was like, no, like. So I'm now in this sort of. I'm very busy at the moment, so I'm more of a season of no. And my people pleasing, perfectionistic side in the past would have just said yeah, say yes to everything. But as you get older and you have more commitments, it's just there's only so many, so much time in the day. So yeah, the advice I'd have for listeners is be mindful of like how you're actually feeling and say no to stuff. Like I talk a lot about that in the uncertainty advantage is like the yes within the no. Like by saying no to something, what is the, what is the opportunity that that opens up? In a lot of cases it's more mental well being. Like if you're saying yes to everything, you're saying no to mental well being in many cases.
• 53:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well said. We've done various episodes on people pleasing and boundaries. So yeah, we have, we have a lot there on that. And I agree. Right. It sometimes though, the, the, the, the need am I saying this? I'm thinking for myself here and like I can convince myself that I need to do something and it's like actually listening to the other parts of me. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say is there's a very ambitious, strong, you know, perfectionist, you know, side of me. But there's also a part of me that is a lot softer and calmer and gentler and compassionate and, and sometimes I just need to like give the mic in my brain to the other one and just he, you know that that voice will soften me and say it's okay. It will reassure me, it will encourage me. It'll say we'll get back to this another day, take the day off or whatever it is I need to do. Say no. Right. And so sometimes it's within your own self that you need to tap into and listen. I agree. It's a body thing. Right. When I'm not connected to my body, I will run it ragged. I will exhaust myself. When I am connected to my body and listening to what it needs most of the time it's going to Say the same thing. Go to bed.
• 54:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, oh, totally. And that's a great sleep last night, like eight hours. And, and that's important because like when. Yeah, my book literally comes out tomorrow. So I think I'm just a little bit more like high strung because there's a lot of stuff that you have to do on like a book launch week. And. Yeah. And I also, I just was away for like three weeks, so I think I'm just re acclimating to, to being back in my, my house. And the final thing I'd say too is sometimes like, it's okay like when you're, if you're feeling anxious. This is a broader piece of advice and actually was reflecting on my own self is like, yeah, like, I'm a little like anxious and tired right now and that's okay. Like, I'm not always going to be this like, Zen chill person because you know what it's like when your first book's coming out, like tomorrow, most people would be a little like stressed and anxious about getting everything kind of like ready. And for me, I think that that's a perfectionistic is I'll feel I'll get mad at myself for being anxious and it's actually important to be like, you know what? Like, I am anxious and that's part of life. And like, the reality is, is that I'm not like, if I was like the Dalai Lama and I could just like be like, you know, I was super relaxed all the time, but like, I'm not. Like, very few people are, you know, have this like, tremendous like, inner peace. And there's some things in life that are just stressful and that, that for the vast majority of people, they're going to cause some kind of anxiety and you need to feel that anxiety and you just need to sit with it and eventually it goes away.
• 56:16
  Speaker A: And on the other side of that is confidence. Because you would have learned, hey, when I've been stressed and anxious and all the things I'm feeling, when I take care of myself, when I feel it, as you said, you will survive it, of course. And then that builds the muscle of confidence. Like, I can do hard shit. Whereas, you know, when I was talking about being fragile before, I couldn't do hard, I was, I refused to do hardship because I had no practice of it. But now I've developed that and, and I know that I can do hardship. So when life gives me challenges, and it will, and when I'm stressed and I am, I'm just like, okay, here we go. We're going to do this, it's going to be stressful and we're going to come out on the other side of it and it's going to be fine.
• 56:54
  Speaker B: I agree. In kind of education theory, they talk about self efficacy, self confidence, like the ability to believe in yourself and doing things. And one of the ways you develop self efficacy is through succeeding at different things.
• 57:05
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 57:05
  Speaker B: So even in my case, like, you found a venture for Canada, started this little idea. We've raised $80 million for funding for 10,000 people and I now have the self efficacy of like, okay, I can build things that are large and get a lot of resources and staff. And even now, like, I have the self efficacy. Okay. I published a book, I'm proud of the book that I wrote. And even going through things like OCD mental health challenges and like, really like dark times, like, I think it's really important that like part of the, like the way you build resilience, but even beyond that, like something I talk about in the uncertainty advantage is how you build anti fragility, which is the ability to not just like survive and be like, okay, I survived that tough time, but to be like, I went through really challenging shit and I became better because of that challenging kind of experience. When I think about the OCD challenges that I went through, the worst, lowest point in my life, I felt like I could barely get out of bed and like work for like six months. It was like horrible. But that experience, I felt like a part of me died in it. But then a new version of me emerged that was stronger, that was better. And sometimes it's through the challenging moments in life that literally a part of you dies, that there's a new part of you that's born. And there's a great theory in psychology called positive disintegration that was created after the First World War. And it was this Polish psychologist who interviewed veterans of the First World War and talks about how some people like lost their minds because it was so, so, so world shattering. But other people actually emerged to be better versions of themselves after the First World War because who are veterans who had seen these horrible kinds of things. I have not, did not go through an experience like the First World War. But I think that it's important for listeners to think about, like when you go through challenging times, you have an opportunity for a part of yourself to die, but for also you to emerge as like a stronger person. And I encourage listeners to learn more about antifragility and also the concept of post traumatic growth. Like There's a lot of people who can go through really challenging times. And I think, as Gabor Mate talks about, I think being gay, for most gay men, there's a degree of trauma that is involved that we all experience. And whether that's capital T trauma or lower T traumas, Gabor Mate, it depends on the person and their life experiences. But I think all gay men have that shared trauma that we have gone through challenging at different times in our. In our lives. And I think the invitation for all of us as gay men is how do we. How does that provide a growth to all of us? Because, you know, for a lot of us, we had challenging childhoods. At different points, we were bullied, we were marginalized. We didn't feel accepted. And that obviously creates burdens and challenges for all of us, but it also creates opportunities for us to be even better versions of ourselves, not just in terms of career success, or I shouldn't say not in terms of career success, but in terms of being more empathetic, being more compassionate, and being more grounded in terms of who we are.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Being gay, I think, is a superpower. And if you can do that work, if you can take those challenges, I mean, we're. I say we're gay boys in a straight world, right? We're. We. We are marginalized. We just are. Just by existing, we're marginalized. But if you can take that and turn that into. Synthesize that into something powerful for you, confidence, impact, anything. Anything you want, empathy, even, it just creates such a better experience of life for you and for everyone else around you.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker B: I agree. I think. You know, I remember when Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, came out of the closet. He had a great statement, and one of it was talking about being gay was one of the greatest gifts that he had in life because it gave him more empathy for other people, let him see the world in different kinds of ways. And for a long time, you know, I so feared being gay and probably and had this shame. But now I legitimately think there's, like, a lot of advantages in terms of just everything from perceptiveness on some things to being more compassionate for people. And also, I just think that sometimes, like, the really challenging shit that, you know, went through in childhood helped make me a tougher person than a lot of other people, because I went through challenging shit. Like, some people I feel like I know who just have had easy things most of their life, they're not like when. When shit hits the fan, they, like, crumble Versus now I look back at challenging experiences. Like, even though CD situation and like, I got extremely sick in university and had to get hospitalized. And anyway, I've had different circumstances that have happened to me. And I think that those experiences helped make me who I am today. And while at the time I did not appreciate them, I now view that they made me a better version of who I am today. And I think, yeah, I mean, did I like getting bullied? Absolutely not. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger if you approach it in a certain kind of way.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more with all of this. You know, I noticed that as well. And not just. Not just in the gay world. Anyone who has had to undergo any kind of life circumstances that were traumatic, difficult, adverse in any which way. Yes, if you approach it the right way. That's not to say that you ignore all the feelings. You still process it and you still go through that dark night of the soul. You walk through that really tough moment. But on the other side of it, you can either we just did a podcast on this, continue to be victimized by it even though the thing is over, or you can say, okay, that happened. That's real. How do I want to emerge from this? And that's the question that I love, is what kind of man do I want to be on the other side of this? And that is where your growth starts.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker B: Oh, I totally agree. And I was on another podcast and someone I talked to, it was a lot about the OCD diagnosis and my kind of experience. And he was like, for you, it feels like the OCD experience was empowering, that it helped you understand yourself, that you emerge, you felt like you emerged as a better person. And I think mental health and mental health diagnoses are really important, but it's important to not. Like, I think that you can either have a victim approach to it or it can be an empowering approach. And for me, initially, it was a little bit more victim approach, but over time, it became an empowering approach. And I think we all like Viktor Frankl and Man Search for Meaning. Amazing book. We don't choose the circumstances in front of us, but we can choose how we respond to those circumstances. And even if, you know, you're facing kind of microaggressions or discrimination or just annoying people that are not, which I think all gay men can experience, I think it's to recognize that, like, it's, you know, I. You can't choose that, but you can choose how you respond to it.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's where your power is always. Yeah, yeah. Scott, this has been a great conversation. We are out of time. So I want to make sure that you have a chance to tell everyone where they can find your book and where they can find you.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker B: You can find my book, the Uncertainty Advantage on Amazon. If you're in the United states, it's on Amazon.com and it's coming out September 16th in the US in Canada you can find it at Amazon CA it's coming out August in Canada. And in Canada you can find it at Indigo and at independent bookstores in the US you can find it at Barnes and Noble. And in terms of learning a little bit more about me, I recommend you check out my website stir.coms t i2rs e2ts.com and on my website I have an uncertainty quiz that you can do to better understand what is your ability to cope with uncertainty as well as you can check me out on Substack. I send out an email once a month with the best finds that I've come across in terms of AI, the future of work and uncertainty. And yeah, really appreciated being a guest on the show today. Michael. Yeah, I encourage any listener to feel free to reach out to me anytime. My email also is scottcotstour.com too, so feel free to email me. I'll reply to anyone who reaches out. And yeah, thanks.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker A: Beautiful. So thank you Scott for joining us today. I will put all that information in the show notes so viewers and listeners, that's all there. Just go to the show notes. It'll be there. I'll also put in there my link to my menuscript that I'm starting up soon if you want to join that. So thank you Scott. Thank you viewers and listeners for sticking with us for the episode. Again, reminder that if you're on YouTube please go ahead and tap that thanks button to show us some love. And by the way guys, if you are listening on Apple Apple podcast, listeners get early access option to the show so they get ad free access and they gain episodes about two to three weeks before they're released wide. So if you want to do that, all your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community. So we thank you. All right, we hope to see you guys at the next event and see you next time. Bye bye.