Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / How Grief Affects the Body: Physical Symptoms, the 6 Stages of Grief, and Finding Meaning After Loss with David Kessler
Transcript
- [00:00:00] David Kessler: Just like you said, study after study is showing us in trauma [00:00:05] and in grief, we need community. [00:00:07] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:00:07] David Kessler: We need others. We've all been taught the [00:00:10] TV version of dying. Grief is messy. Grief is organic. We [00:00:15] don't know what to say. [00:00:17] Dr. Taz: Grief comes in lots of different forms. It can come [00:00:20] in the form of a divorce- Yes ... the loss of a child, loss of a loved one. [00:00:24] Dr. Taz: It can [00:00:25] come in the form of a loss of a job. When we don't do this work, regardless of what it [00:00:30] is or the experience has been, it shows up in your lab work. [00:00:33] David Kessler: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:00:34] Dr. Taz: There's [00:00:35] inflammation, there is high cortisol- Absolutely ... there's hormone disruption. Over [00:00:40] time- [00:00:40] David Kessler: Yes ... [00:00:40] Dr. Taz: that's a diagnosis Stress is a common [00:00:45] factor that affects everyone in today's fast-paced world, leading to various issues. [00:00:49] Dr. Taz: What if the answer [00:00:50] to a better stress response is actually in a key nutrient? I'm talking about magnesium. [00:00:55] Actually, I'm specifically talking about Magnesium Breakthrough by [00:01:00] BiOptimizers. This one-of-a-kind product is designed to reverse low levels of magnesium, which could be [00:01:05] causing a multitude of other health problems. [00:01:07] Dr. Taz: What sets Magnesium Breakthrough apart is its [00:01:10] ability to support healthy levels of stress hormones like cortisol, a better balanced stress [00:01:15] response in your nervous and hormonal systems, and a healthy production of GABA, the relaxing [00:01:20] neurotransmitter leading to a more peaceful and better flow state. [00:01:22] Dr. Taz: This means that this supplement [00:01:25] acts like a brake on your body's nervous system, helping to calm and soothe, promoting a better [00:01:30] quality of life. But you have to get the right kinds of magnesium. Truth is, most [00:01:35] magnesium supplements you'll find in health stores use only the two cheapest synthetic [00:01:40] forms, and since they're not full spectrum, they won't help your magnesium deficiency or do much to [00:01:45] support your health. [00:01:45] Dr. Taz: There are actually seven key forms of magnesium, and you must get all of them if you [00:01:50] wanna experience its calming stress balancing effects. That's why I only recommend [00:01:55] Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers. It's the only organic full spectrum magnesium [00:02:00] supplement that includes seven unique forms of magnesium for stress resilience and better sleep all in [00:02:05] one bottle. [00:02:05] Dr. Taz: For an exclusive offer, go to bioptimizers.com/holplus [00:02:10] and use the promo code holPLUS during checkout to save 10%. That's H-O-L-E-P-L-U-S. [00:02:15] And if you subscribe, not only will you get amazing discounts and free gifts, you [00:02:20] will make sure your monthly supply is guaranteed. As a young physician, I think one of the [00:02:25] hardest things I ever dealt with was loss. [00:02:27] Dr. Taz: Watching a patient die, watching family members lose loved [00:02:30] ones, coming from the emergency room or from any of the different scenarios in my different [00:02:35] residency rotations, this really was one that I struggled with. And somewhere along that journey, I picked [00:02:40] up a book by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who talked about death and dying, the five stages [00:02:45] of grief, and the profound impact they have on the human experience. [00:02:48] Dr. Taz: My next guest [00:02:50] has worked with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and all her groundbreaking work on the five [00:02:55] stages of grief, and I can't wait to get his perspective on what grief, loss, [00:03:00] and trauma do to the human spirit and at the end of the day, do to our human [00:03:05] experience. David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss. [00:03:09] Dr. Taz: His [00:03:10] experience with thousands of people on the edge of life and death has taught him the secrets to living a [00:03:15] happy and fulfilled life even after life's tragedies. He's the author of six [00:03:20] books, including the new bestselling book, Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief. He [00:03:25] co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, including On Grief and Grieving, and [00:03:30] updated her five stages of grief. [00:03:32] Dr. Taz: His first book, The Needs of the Dying, received [00:03:35] praise from Saint Mother Teresa. David's volunteer work includes being an LAPD specialist [00:03:40] reserve for traumatic events, as well as having served on Red Cross's disaster services [00:03:45] team. He has been trained for bio-terrorist events as well as epidemics and pandemics. [00:03:49] Dr. Taz: He's the [00:03:50] founder of grief.com which has over five million visits yearly from [00:03:55] 167 countries. Please join me in welcoming David Kessler to hol [00:04:00] Plus. All right, David, welcome to the show. [00:04:02] David Kessler: So glad to be here with you. [00:04:03] Dr. Taz: Uh, this is a full circle [00:04:05] moment for me. When I was in med school and residency I stumbled upon Elisabeth [00:04:10] Kubler-Ross's work on death and dying. [00:04:12] Dr. Taz: I was really touched and impacted by [00:04:15] some of the f- my first experience with losing a patient and I found you [00:04:20] that way too. So to have you here on the show is such an honor and such a privilege and [00:04:25] I couldn't be more excited, so welcome. [00:04:26] David Kessler: Well, thank you so much and I'm so curious. You [00:04:30] know, I think about her in the '60s- [00:04:34] Dr. Taz: [00:04:35] Right [00:04:35] David Kessler: being a female physician and back [00:04:40] then trying to be out of the box. I mean, I [00:04:45] remember, you know, hearing the stories of how she would have [00:04:50] the audacity to bring patients [00:04:55] to the physician education And it was like, [00:05:00] "No." [00:05:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah. " [00:05:00] David Kessler: No, we learn from each other. We don't have patients tell us-" We don't learn from our [00:05:04] Dr. Taz: [00:05:05] patient. [00:05:05] David Kessler: Yeah. It was like, "Wait. No, no. We have patient education [00:05:10] classes. Why would we want to learn from patients?" [00:05:13] Dr. Taz: All [00:05:13] David Kessler: it takes is a woman. And she was [00:05:15] like... Th- uh, yeah. I- I'm just kidding ... yeah, and, you know, there's probably some truth to that. Yeah. And it was this [00:05:20] idea of we have to learn from people- From the patient [00:05:23] David Kessler: who are dying- Yeah ... and people who are [00:05:25] in grief. They are our teachers. [00:05:27] Dr. Taz: Well, one of the reasons I really wanted you on the [00:05:30] show, we spend a lot of time on the show talking about the spirit, the human spirit, and the human [00:05:35] experience, and how that plays just as an important role into our health and our [00:05:40] vitality, our medicine, our data, and all those things, and I feel like that gets really lost, [00:05:45] right? [00:05:45] Dr. Taz: It gets really lost in a conversation around how somebody's doing. And I think [00:05:50] grief, in Chinese medicine, as you probably already know, grief lives in the lungs, [00:05:55] right? And it's very much associated with the lung meridian, and Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine would spend a [00:06:00] lot of time working with people who are in a grief state to help them release grief.[00:06:05] [00:06:05] Dr. Taz: I am so curious on how you entered this space. This is your [00:06:10] space. You have worked for so long on grief and really creating a [00:06:15] methodology for those of us dealing with people who are losing loved ones, whether it's in the patient room or whether it's in our [00:06:20] families. You know, how did you enter this to begin with? [00:06:23] David Kessler: I had [00:06:25] a childhood that was full of trauma and loss, from [00:06:30] everything, losing our home when I was nine. [00:06:35] Um, my father was an addict. My mother... [00:06:40] My father had an addiction. My mother today m- probably would, could be considered [00:06:45] bipolar. [00:06:45] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:06:46] David Kessler: And it was chaotic and [00:06:50] unstable, and then I was sexually abused. I mean- Oof [00:06:52] David Kessler: so many losses. [00:06:53] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:06:55] [00:06:55] David Kessler: And then when I was 13, my mother was very ill, had to go to a [00:07:00] hospital hours away for this new procedure that was only in a few [00:07:05] hospitals called dialysis. [00:07:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. That was new. [00:07:08] David Kessler: It was new. Wow. [00:07:10] And the ethics, the early ethics committee would decide who would [00:07:15] get it, and she was able to get one treatment- [00:07:19] Dr. Taz: [00:07:20] Mm [00:07:20] David Kessler: which we know now- Right ... would, like, you know, that I think they just in [00:07:25] whatever their eyes at that time was too far gone, which doesn't [00:07:30] make any medical sense, but it is what it is. Right. And that was that reality, and it [00:07:35] was also a time in medicine where- The [00:07:40] ICU, you could visit five minutes every two [00:07:45] hours because families were seen as an interruption- [00:07:49] Dr. Taz: Mm [00:07:49] David Kessler: of the [00:07:50] healing process. And I was 13. The rule is you had to be [00:07:55] 14. So [00:07:55] Dr. Taz: you couldn't see your mom. I [00:07:56] David Kessler: couldn't see my mom. Oh. There were a few nurses [00:08:00] who snuck me in, but most of them were, you know, rule-abiding [00:08:05] nurses. And we were at a hotel across the street, [00:08:10] and all of a sudden one day in the lobby of that hotel, I spent all my time in the [00:08:15] lobbies- Mm [00:08:15] David Kessler: the hospital lobby, the hotel lobby, someone started yelling, "Fire." [00:08:20] We all ran out. Up on the 18th floor, flames started pouring [00:08:25] out of a building, out of the hotel building. Fire trucks pulled up. I mean, [00:08:30] it was kind of exciting for me. I was bored, you know? [00:08:33] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:08:33] David Kessler: Right. And fire trucks [00:08:35] pull up and shooting begins. [00:08:37] Dr. Taz: What? [00:08:37] David Kessler: And they realize this is not [00:08:40] just a fire, they had an active shooter. Oh. It went- What year [00:08:43] Dr. Taz: is this? [00:08:44] David Kessler: This was [00:08:45] 1973. [00:08:46] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:08:46] David Kessler: It went on for hours. It's now [00:08:50] considered one of the first mass shootings in the US. [00:08:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. And you're there [00:08:54] David Kessler: witnessing this. I'm [00:08:55] there witnessing police being killed, hotel guests, [00:09:00] my father desperately trying to get us over to the hospital, finally get [00:09:05] us back to the safety of the hospital. [00:09:07] David Kessler: In a couple of days, my mother dies. [00:09:10] No support. The [00:09:15] only thing a fellow patient's wife said to me in a stairwell, [00:09:20] out of her kindness, was, "Stay strong." [00:09:23] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:09:24] David Kessler: [00:09:25] Which I think for men and most people gets interpreted as take care of everyone else- [00:09:29] Dr. Taz: [00:09:30] Right ... [00:09:30] David Kessler: and put your feelings aside. And [00:09:31] Dr. Taz: don't express your emotions. [00:09:33] David Kessler: Oh, no. Yeah. Right. I mean, there was [00:09:35] no sense of that. [00:09:36] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:09:36] David Kessler: Yeah. And there was just no one there. [00:09:40] I tried to talk to my father about grief. He just shut it down. Shut down. Yeah. [00:09:45] And I went into this going, [00:09:50] "Damaged. Damaged, broken, this is life." [00:09:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:09:54] David Kessler: Dropped out [00:09:55] of high school, ninth grade. Thought that's it, and I was just [00:10:00] lost for a few years. [00:10:01] David Kessler: My father didn't know how to be a parent. I was [00:10:05] so lost, and then someone said to me, a neighbor... I mean, thank goodness for the [00:10:10] strangers that come into our life. A neighbor said to me, "You know, you can go [00:10:15] do this GED thing where you go challenge to get your high school diploma- Mm-hmm ... 'cause you're [00:10:20] smart." [00:10:20] David Kessler: And I'm like, "Really? It's not over? I thought I screwed up the school thing." Right, [00:10:24] Dr. Taz: right. [00:10:25] [00:10:25] David Kessler: Challenged it, then challenged my high school diploma and actually got it. Went to [00:10:30] community college, and they said, "There's two easy classes, human [00:10:35] sexuality, but it's full, and death and dying, but people don't often wanna take that." [00:10:39] Dr. Taz: [00:10:40] Right. [00:10:40] David Kessler: I said, "I'll take that." And I get in there, and I learn about [00:10:45] this woman, Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. [00:10:47] Dr. Taz: Kubler-Ross. [00:10:48] David Kessler: And [00:10:48] Dr. Taz: her stages. For those of you... So [00:10:50] some people watching and listening may not even know who she is, which is hard to believe, right? But [00:10:55] she was, I would call her a pioneer when it comes to- A [00:10:57] David Kessler: pioneer [00:10:58] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:10:58] David Kessler: We have [00:11:00] hospice in this country because of her and really pushing it forward [00:11:05] and helping to get it paid by Medicare. Mm-hmm. While working with so many other [00:11:10] people back then. She... Here's what was fascinating about her. [00:11:15] She didn't invent something. She observed something in nature. Mm-hmm. She said, "I've [00:11:20] been watching people who are dying, and it seems like they have [00:11:25] these experiences." [00:11:27] David Kessler: No different than going, "I've been watching the [00:11:30] sun. It seems to come up in the east and set in the west." [00:11:35] And she saw people were going through these experience of, "I can't believe this is [00:11:40] happening," denial. "I'm angry this is happening," anger [00:11:45] Deal making. If I, if I [00:11:50] volunteer more, if I do this, if I give to charity, might I get more time? [00:11:54] David Kessler: And the people [00:11:55] in grief are also doing that around them. [00:11:57] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:11:58] David Kessler: And then [00:12:00] back in her day, it was sadness and depression were considered the same. People are [00:12:05] sad, and then we have to, at some point, [00:12:10] begin to dance with acceptance. [00:12:13] Dr. Taz: These are the five stages of grief as- [00:12:14] David Kessler: [00:12:15] Denial- ... as we know them today ... anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. [00:12:18] David Kessler: And she would have told [00:12:20] you back then, and I still say it, we wrote a book [00:12:25] adapting her stages- [00:12:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:12:26] David Kessler: of dying for stages of grief. One of the criticisms you'll hear [00:12:30] is, "Well, they weren't adapted for grief." And I'm like, "No, whole book." And on page [00:12:35] one we made sure we said they're not linear. There's no [00:12:40] one right way to do grief. [00:12:40] David Kessler: It's not a [00:12:41] Dr. Taz: destination, [00:12:41] David Kessler: right? It's not a destination. Yeah. It's not as the media has [00:12:45] tried to turn it into five easy steps for healing your grief. Right. It's not that. [00:12:49] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:12:49] David Kessler: [00:12:50] Grief is messy. Grief is organic. You know, [00:12:55] grief turns our world upside down. What [00:12:56] Dr. Taz: does grief do to us? [00:13:00] Beyond what we experience, what, what is it doing to us? [00:13:03] Dr. Taz: I [00:13:03] David Kessler: think it [00:13:05] changes us. It changes our brain. It changes our body. You [00:13:10] know, it's, it's... I think we forget it's one of the [00:13:15] hugest things we will go through in this lifetime, and [00:13:20] there's no information on how to do it. We don't teach it. [00:13:25] We teach our children everything except loss. [00:13:29] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:13:29] David Kessler: [00:13:30] And what's also amazing about her stages to these days, and Elisabeth is the first [00:13:35] person to say, "Oh my gosh," when people would go... [00:13:38] David Kessler: Like, I would be with her, [00:13:40] and a clinician would come in and say, "I've got a case." And they would tell us the case, and [00:13:45] we're like 20 minutes in going, "All right. We can't wait for the question." [00:13:48] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:13:49] David Kessler: And then they [00:13:50] would say, "Okay, Elisabeth, what stage are they in?" And Elisabeth would go, [00:13:55] "Forget the stages. [00:13:56] David Kessler: Meet them where they are." They are. [00:13:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:13:59] David Kessler: You [00:14:00] know? And it's just, it's about not... I think about her, and it was really [00:14:05] hard in her lifetime. Imagine, I think, 26 books, thousands of [00:14:10] lectures- Yeah ... and people wanted to reduce her to five words. [00:14:14] Dr. Taz: Five stages. [00:14:15] What would she say if she was here today? [00:14:18] David Kessler: She would be [00:14:20] so thrilled we're talking more about grief, and she would [00:14:25] be disappointed that we're not further along. [00:14:28] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:14:30] You know, grief, I've sat with so many patients, [00:14:35] family members, watched my husband struggle with the loss of his mother. It looks [00:14:40] really different on different people. [00:14:42] David Kessler: Yes. [00:14:43] Dr. Taz: If you're sitting on the outside [00:14:45] of someone who's experiencing grief, what can you do? [00:14:50] How do you reach them? [00:14:51] David Kessler: I think the biggest thing to learn and to [00:14:55] understand, and I [00:14:56] David Kessler: This is something when I, in our program is when we teach therapists and coaches [00:15:00] and healthcare professionals, there is no fixing. [00:15:05] [00:15:05] Dr. Taz: Mm, that's a big one. [00:15:06] David Kessler: There, there is no three interventions [00:15:10] to do this. It is not about platitudes, it is [00:15:15] about your presence. And my website is [00:15:20] grief.com- Mm-hmm ... and I see the back end of it. [00:15:24] David Kessler: The page [00:15:25] that gets most visited is the best and worst things to say to people in grief. [00:15:29] Dr. Taz: [00:15:30] Mm. [00:15:30] David Kessler: We don't know what to say. Like, 3:00 AM is [00:15:35] where all these people are on it. We don't know what to say, [00:15:40] and we think there's this myth, and clinicians have it, and everyone [00:15:45] has it- [00:15:45] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:15:45] David Kessler: gotta figure out the right words. [00:15:47] David Kessler: Right. And we don't understand it's about going [00:15:50] I don't have the right words. I don't even know what to say, [00:15:55] and I love you, and I'm here with you. Yeah. And I'm going to be next to you on [00:16:00] this path. I can't go on the path with you, but I'm right here next to you. [00:16:05] [00:16:05] Dr. Taz: Well, you've spent a lot of time developing tools for the clinician, for [00:16:10] the human who's going through this process. [00:16:11] Dr. Taz: Right. Let's go back to how this [00:16:15] evolved in terms of your relationship with Elizabeth, what you guys were able to create [00:16:20] together, and I believe even Mother Teresa recognized you at some point. Oh, my gosh. So tell, [00:16:25] fill in the story a [00:16:28] David Kessler: little bit for us. Let me tell you, I have, I have a career [00:16:29] Dr. Taz: because of [00:16:30] these two women. Mm. I [00:16:31] David Kessler: mean, there's a lot of people, I'm sure you know them, plenty of [00:16:35] people send us books. They've written wonderful books, and they can't sort [00:16:40] of get them on the map, and there's no way to create- Right ... lightning on purpose. [00:16:44] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:16:45] [00:16:45] David Kessler: And here were these two women, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and [00:16:50] Mother Teresa, who really helped put me on the map. So I [00:16:55] had, uh, gone to Calcutta to go to who, her, her home for the dying. Which [00:16:58] Dr. Taz: is where my mom [00:17:00] grew up. Yes. I remember she was sharing that with you. Yes. [00:17:01] David Kessler: Yeah. And I think she was [00:17:05] in an area there with Mother Teresa at a certain point. [00:17:07] Dr. Taz: She was, and she went to, you know, uh, in India at the [00:17:10] time, the British convent schools were where the equivalent of our private schools today, and [00:17:15] the convent that she was at in Calcutta is actually where Mother Teresa was in residence. Wow. So [00:17:20] she got to witness Mother Teresa- Yeah ... ministering, you know, to all types of people, and, uh, [00:17:25] definitely got to meet her and all that other stuff, which is a little surreal to me, right? [00:17:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. But, um, [00:17:30] she took us back to that convent and, and kinda showed us, like, where all of that took place, [00:17:35] but you had a much- I, yeah ... deeper relationship with [00:17:37] David Kessler: her. I, um, I [00:17:40] was at her home, and you could no longer see her 'cause she was ill. I would see her in [00:17:45] Mass. [00:17:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:17:45] David Kessler: I went to Mass, and in her home, it was [00:17:50] 40 people who were dying. [00:17:53] David Kessler: I saw people neatly in a [00:17:55] room dying. [00:17:55] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:17:56] David Kessler: I wasn't used to 40 people dying at once, and I'll tell you, I [00:18:00] said to the sister there, I said, "What are people..." 'Cause I was there getting ready to [00:18:05] help. I said, "What are people dying of?" And she goes, "We don't know. We don't care. We don't have time to ask. Are [00:18:10] you here to help or not?" [00:18:12] David Kessler: I'm like, "I'm here to help." "Okay." [00:18:15] And there was, I gotta tell you, there was nothing I could [00:18:20] do. There wasn't even a language between us. [00:18:23] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:18:24] David Kessler: I could [00:18:25] just be. [00:18:26] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:18:26] David Kessler: One human being with another human [00:18:30] being, no words at the end of life, just your presence. [00:18:35] I mean- [00:18:35] Dr. Taz: So what did you, so [00:18:36] David Kessler: you're just [00:18:36] Dr. Taz: there? It taught me everything. [00:18:37] Dr. Taz: You're just- [00:18:37] David Kessler: You're there. Yeah. I mean, the most you could [00:18:40] do is if someone needed a shower, I, like, there were no [00:18:45] Hoyer lifts or anything. Literally, I would pick them up. You would go in the shower with them. They had a [00:18:50] shower. You had a shower. You'd come out. It was so hot there. It was a self-drying system. [00:18:54] David Kessler: [00:18:55] Right, right, right. And, you know, it was just being. It was being. I mean, they [00:19:00] had, you know, Tylenol at the time for pain. Mm-hmm. But it was being with [00:19:05] one another, and just your eyes knowing you're not [00:19:10] alone. I mean, I think if anything, I learned to s- Gosh, it's gonna get me. [00:19:14] Dr. Taz: [00:19:15] Mm. [00:19:17] David Kessler: I learned to speak with the [00:19:20] kindness of our eyes, just with the kindness of our eyes [00:19:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.[00:19:25] [00:19:25] Dr. Taz: And what is, and how did Mother Teresa, is that how you, did you- [00:19:29] David Kessler: [00:19:30] So then one day, I'm just there at her convent [00:19:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:19:33] David Kessler: and one of the sisters says, [00:19:35] "Oh, Mother heard about you're doing a book and all that and wants to talk to you. When's convenient?" And I'm [00:19:40] like, "I don't know, whenever she wants." And they're like- And this [00:19:42] Dr. Taz: is your first book? [00:19:43] David Kessler: Yes. Okay. My first book- Gotcha. Okay ... The Needs of [00:19:45] the Dying. Okay. And that's why I was there. [00:19:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:19:46] David Kessler: And so, uh, they brought me, [00:19:50] uh, to her, and I mean, like this tall. [00:19:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:53] David Kessler: This tall. Not [00:19:54] Dr. Taz: tall. [00:19:55] Not tall at all. [00:19:55] David Kessler: This tall. [00:19:55] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:56] David Kessler: And we sat down and we talked [00:20:00] and I said, "We have so many resources in my country for the dying.[00:20:05] [00:20:05] David Kessler: You have so few here. How do you do it?" [00:20:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:20:09] David Kessler: And she [00:20:10] looked at me almost like, "Silly boy." And she said, 'cause I was 30 [00:20:15] at the time, she goes, "The dying need tender loving care." [00:20:19] Dr. Taz: [00:20:20] Mm. " [00:20:20] David Kessler: Nothing else. The dying need tender..." And how [00:20:25] much technology do we throw at the dying? [00:20:27] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:20:28] David Kessler: And miss the tender [00:20:30] loving care, even with those in grief. [00:20:32] David Kessler: And so anyway, [00:20:35] from there, um, you know, I had that incredible experience of spending time with [00:20:40] her and, um- Then [00:20:45] when the book was coming out, the publisher and, uh, [00:20:50] my agent said, "Let's send it to her. See if she'll do a blurb." And I'm like, [00:20:55] "Mother Teresa doesn't blurb." She doesn't blurb. And so [00:21:00] I reluctantly did that. [00:21:02] David Kessler: I had seen her on TV saying she loves [00:21:05] reading new books, so I sent her the book and a thank you note- [00:21:08] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:21:08] David Kessler: and a picture to remind, [00:21:10] you know, her of who I was. And I was done, and of course I was never gonna hear [00:21:15] from them. [00:21:15] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:21:15] David Kessler: And then one day, the sister calls up and says, you know, [00:21:20] "Mother would like to say something about your book." [00:21:22] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:21:23] David Kessler: And I'm like, "What?" And [00:21:25] so just, and she doesn't blurb, she praises. [00:21:27] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:21:28] David Kessler: And I w- I am in [00:21:30] gratitude to this day. [00:21:31] Dr. Taz: What did she say? [00:21:32] David Kessler: She just talked about like that [00:21:35] this is really, um, information that will help people, [00:21:40] and how tender it was and that, you know, the knowledge would help. And it was so [00:21:45] sweet. [00:21:46] David Kessler: What did- And it was really about- [00:21:47] Dr. Taz: What did that first book do? What did it do? [00:21:50] What were you trying to say? [00:21:51] David Kessler: I was trying to teach people about end [00:21:55] of life. [00:21:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:21:56] David Kessler: Everything I wish had be done, had been done in my childhood. [00:21:59] Dr. Taz: [00:22:00] Mm. [00:22:00] David Kessler: And it was one third medical- [00:22:02] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:22:03] David Kessler: one third [00:22:05] psychological, one third spiritual. [00:22:07] David Kessler: I wanted it to sort of blend those together. [00:22:10] Science and [00:22:10] Dr. Taz: spirit. [00:22:11] David Kessler: Science and spirit. [00:22:12] Dr. Taz: I love it. [00:22:13] David Kessler: And just about, you know, [00:22:15] everything from dealing with advanced directives to f- visiting, to being present, [00:22:20] to talking with the dying, to learning. And I'll tell you, Kubler Ross was funny. I, [00:22:25] when I first met her, she was like, "I'm retired, I'm done." [00:22:28] David Kessler: She had had her stroke. [00:22:30] And I said, "I, I n- need nothing. I..." You know? And we became good [00:22:35] friends. [00:22:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:36] David Kessler: And then she couldn't keep her hands off [00:22:40] that book. Mm. She's like, "Well, what did you say about this? Did you hit- ... the spiritual quadrant?" So [00:22:45] then she was in it, so she touched that book and- I love it ... praised it. [00:22:49] David Kessler: So then by the time [00:22:50] it came out, between Mother Teresa and her kind words, oh my gosh, [00:22:55] it just- [00:22:55] Dr. Taz: It took off ... [00:22:56] David Kessler: it hit the world in a way that I- Was [00:23:00] more than [00:23:00] Dr. Taz: I [00:23:00] David Kessler: deserved- [00:23:01] Dr. Taz: The next diet ... you know, at that time Yeah. And it's something we need. I mean, even today as we're sitting here, we're hearing [00:23:05] debates, right, on assisted suicide. [00:23:06] Dr. Taz: Right. We're hear- We've just gone through the pandemic, [00:23:10] right? Right. There's been an unprecedented amount of loss, it feels like, that we've experienced [00:23:15] as a planet, you know- Mm-hmm ... for sure. So I think your work, you know, even going back to that [00:23:20] first book and to her work, couldn't be more timely, you know- Right [00:23:23] Dr. Taz: so to speak. But [00:23:25] if I had to pin you down and ask you what [00:23:30] is the science of dying? What are, like, some of the, the things that are universal that you've [00:23:35] noticed over and over again? Yeah. And then I'm gonna do the same thing- Yeah ... and, and pin you down and ask [00:23:40] about that spiritual quadrant, and what is it that we need to understand about the human spirit? [00:23:44] Dr. Taz: But let's start with the [00:23:45] science. [00:23:45] David Kessler: Yeah. You know, the first thing I'd wanna say is that we live in [00:23:50] a world where we've all been taught the TV version of dying. [00:23:55] [00:23:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:23:56] David Kessler: And people all the time, as I [00:24:00] work with them in grief, saying, "You don't know what a horrible death. What w- it [00:24:05] was just, it was horrible. No human being should have to go through it." [00:24:08] David Kessler: And I'll go, "Tell me [00:24:10] what happened." And I think I'm going to hear something out of the [00:24:15] ordinary, and I'm like, "Oh, no, that's a normal breathing pattern. Oh, yeah, that happens." [00:24:20] But we expect the people to die by going, [00:24:25] "Thank you for being here. I love you." TV. [00:24:30] And instead, the body winds down. [00:24:35] It's a, it's like a, a, a factory [00:24:40] slowly closing areas down, and it's noisy, and it's things [00:24:45] we often haven't seen, and we don't understand what to expect. [00:24:49] David Kessler: And [00:24:50] I put a chapter in that first book, "The Needs of the Dying," that said, "This is what [00:24:55] dying is going to look like." And the publisher even wanted me to say, [00:25:00] "Skip it if you must- [00:25:01] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:25:01] David Kessler: but I think it's important you know." Mm. And people tell [00:25:05] me now when they realize, "Oh, those are the breathing patterns. [00:25:10] Oh, that's Cheyne-Stokes brea-" I mean, all these things that we just don't know to [00:25:15] expect. [00:25:15] David Kessler: People who have had animals have sort of seen it- Right ... and they don't realize we're gonna [00:25:20] die that same way. And here's the thing. The other person that [00:25:25] was a dear friend of mine, um, was Louise Hay. [00:25:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Yes. [00:25:29] David Kessler: [00:25:30] And Louise said once, "If you're [00:25:35] dying, you want David Kessler around." [00:25:36] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:25:37] David Kessler: And once again, I was probably in my 30s, [00:25:40] and I was hurt by the comment. [00:25:42] Dr. Taz: Why? [00:25:43] David Kessler: And I was like... 'Cause I wanted [00:25:45] to be the guy that someone said, "If you're having a party- Right. ... you know who you gotta have? You [00:25:50] wanna have David Kessler there." Right. The death guy. That's the guy. I mean, he's- Invited the death guy ... like, no one's [00:25:55] more fun than David. Right. That's who I wanted to be. [00:25:56] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:25:57] David Kessler: But after I got past the ego part [00:26:00] of that comment, I thought, "What is it?" 'Cause it's not the first time I heard it, [00:26:05] and here's what it is. When I walk into a room and someone's dying, [00:26:10] I'm one of the few people that walks in like nothing's going wrong. [00:26:14] Dr. Taz: [00:26:15] Mm. [00:26:16] David Kessler: That, like, this is, this is the, [00:26:20] this is the winding down of a body. [00:26:23] Dr. Taz: And it's normal [00:26:24] David Kessler: and natural. And it's [00:26:25] normal, and it's natural. And here's the thing. People go, "But you don't understand how it [00:26:30] looked and all that." And I'll say to them, "The body has to become [00:26:35] uninhabitable, or we would never leave." [00:26:37] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:26:38] David Kessler: If I could stay [00:26:40] young and great and fine and healthy, well, I would never die. [00:26:43] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:26:44] David Kessler: The [00:26:45] body, our spirit has to go, "Yes, we're done. [00:26:50] We're done here." [00:26:50] Dr. Taz: So what's happening to the spirit? Not of, of the person in [00:26:55] the situation, and then even to the people around them. [00:26:57] David Kessler: Well, first of all, I love that idea of [00:27:00] the spirit and the body because people will say to me, "Oh, you don't understand. They were [00:27:05] disfigured. [00:27:05] David Kessler: There's cancer. Da-da-da. I don't know. I can't look at them." I'll go, "Look into their [00:27:10] eyes." [00:27:10] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:10] David Kessler: The eyes never change. No matter [00:27:15] how disfigured the body's getting, our eyes just, just see right into [00:27:20] our [00:27:20] Dr. Taz: soul. [00:27:21] David Kessler: Window of the soul. Window of the soul. Mm-hmm. And so I talk about seeing the eyes, and [00:27:25] then it's also fascinating how they intersect when people are [00:27:30] dying. [00:27:31] David Kessler: And it was in the movie Moonstruck. They did it beautifully. People, someone's [00:27:35] dying, and all of a sudden- They wake up [00:27:40] and there's a burst of energy, and I talk about it as the rally before death. [00:27:44] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:44] David Kessler: [00:27:45] And we often have this one last look by the [00:27:50] spirit of coming forth and being present. And I used to have a tough time, [00:27:55] 'cause people go, "They're doing great. [00:27:56] David Kessler: Ah, thank goodness they're not dying." And I was like, how do I [00:28:00] say no? It's just- Mm ... I've learned to say, "Oh, [00:28:05] you've been given the gift of a little more time here. Maybe a day, [00:28:10] maybe 24 hours." We hear [00:28:11] Dr. Taz: that all the time. They do rally. They [00:28:13] David Kessler: rally. [00:28:13] Dr. Taz: Yep. They have OT. And they- "They were having [00:28:15] a great day," and- Yeah, [00:28:16] David Kessler: I mean, in [00:28:16] Dr. Taz: Moonstruck- Yeah, yeah [00:28:17] Dr. Taz: she got up and she started cooking. [00:28:18] David Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and you've heard [00:28:20] stories of that. Yeah. And it's this rally that happens. And then the other [00:28:25] fascinating thing is, and this became one of my other [00:28:30] books, is that all of a sudden In the distance, in the [00:28:35] corner, the dying see someone who's already died. [00:28:39] David Kessler: Yes. [00:28:40] [00:28:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:28:41] David Kessler: And it's called a deathbed vision. There's many names, [00:28:45] near-death awareness. This is different than, um, uh, [00:28:50] when we talk about near-death experiences. This is the person [00:28:55] is dying and someone comes to greet them who's already died. [00:28:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:29:00] [00:29:00] David Kessler: And it was fascinating. I wrote this other book called Visions, Trips and Crowded Rooms: [00:29:05] Who And What We See Before We Die, and I knew I [00:29:10] wanted it to be really credible, and I interviewed doctors, nurses, first [00:29:15] responders, clergy, psychologists, on their experience [00:29:20] working with the dying, seeing people having these visions- [00:29:23] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:29:24] David Kessler: [00:29:25] and how comforting it is, and the difference between that [00:29:30] and a hallucination, not to mistake the two. So I think it's fascinating [00:29:35] that as the body is winding down, these spiritual beings are [00:29:40] connecting. They're [00:29:40] Dr. Taz: connected, yeah. [00:29:41] David Kessler: Are connecting again. [00:29:43] Dr. Taz: So fascinating. [00:29:44] David Kessler: And you're [00:29:45] leaving this world of body to become all spirit, only [00:29:50] spirit. [00:29:51] Dr. Taz: Do you think we've done enough work? I have a dear, dear friend who [00:29:55] took a year- he's a surgeon, and he took a year off to go and do a [00:30:00] sabbatical to help people in their final phases of life, and when [00:30:05] I asked him why, he said, "Well, we're all getting older. I feel like I need to be [00:30:10] there and be the guide for our community as people lose parents, loved [00:30:15] ones- Right [00:30:15] Dr. Taz: partners, whoever else." And, you know, it struck me. It's like I've [00:30:20] not really thought about that, but he spent a year wrestling with these ideas and [00:30:25] trying to understand how to be there, 'cause of course, he, like me, has seen quite a bit. Right. You know, as we, [00:30:30] as we think about where we've come, we have hospice now, we have palliative [00:30:35] care, you know, there's a whole field around, around this. [00:30:39] Dr. Taz: Have [00:30:40] we done enough? What's missing? [00:30:42] David Kessler: Not yet. [00:30:45] The releasing of the fear. The releasing of the fear. [00:30:50] The very thing, the reason why we don't talk about it. I'm so glad [00:30:55] we're doing this, 'cause just this- Right ... we don't talk about this. Right. I mean- [00:30:58] Dr. Taz: Well, I mean, it's not like a [00:31:00] flashy topic, [00:31:00] David Kessler: right? It's not a flashy topic. [00:31:02] Dr. Taz: But it's important, you know, so. [00:31:02] David Kessler: And it's, [00:31:05] it's a life-affirming topic, and I'm teaching [00:31:10] what our great-grandparents knew. [00:31:11] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:31:12] David Kessler: How to be with the dying, how to be with people in [00:31:15] grief, how to be with our own mortality. I have to tell you, I was walking in my [00:31:20] neighborhood and I run into someone, her and I worked together [00:31:25] 30 years ago at Children's Hospital. [00:31:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:31:27] David Kessler: I run into her. She's like, "Oh, I've been [00:31:30] following you, da, da, da, da. I thought about you a million times and all that. I can't believe we live so [00:31:35] close." And she goes, "I'm sorry, I can't be your friend." And I went, [00:31:40] "Okay." Why? Just curious why. Mm-hmm. And she goes, "It would [00:31:45] just be too depressing." And I think that's [00:31:50] the myth- [00:31:51] Dr. Taz: Mm [00:31:51] David Kessler: that looking at these topics, I just [00:31:55] happened to embody that for her, looking at these topics. First of all, I said [00:32:00] to her, "I'm actually not walking around talking death- Right ... and dying in my [00:32:05] personal life- Right, right ... every moment, death and grief." But we don't look at this, and I'll tell you [00:32:10] something else that really showed me. [00:32:12] David Kessler: I used to do, before the pandemic, [00:32:15] you know, I was one of those guys, 30 lectures, three countries, da, da, da, all that. [00:32:20] Right. [00:32:20] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:32:20] David Kessler: And I would be going to hotel after hotel. In the meeting [00:32:25] room, we'd have 2 or 300 people. Next door would be the realtors, [00:32:30] down the hall would be the nursing- Yep ... the Kiwanis Club- Mm-hmm [00:32:32] David Kessler: the Rotary Club. [00:32:33] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:32:35] [00:32:35] David Kessler: At the end of the day, and it happened so many times, the staff would go as they cleaned up, [00:32:40] "Hey, what were you teaching?" And I'd go, "Why?" And they would go, "Your group was [00:32:45] laughing the most." And I would go, "Grief." [00:32:50] And they'd go, "What kind of grief?" Why is that funny? Ki- and I would say, "That kind of grief." [00:32:53] David Kessler: Here's what people don't know- [00:32:55] Those people in the room [00:33:00] absolutely could cry, and grief had [00:33:05] expanded their bandwidth into pain. [00:33:07] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:33:08] David Kessler: They also laughed [00:33:10] harder. It expands our bandwidth into joy [00:33:15] I, sometimes I have to actually remind my friends, you know, I, to grieve. I know, da, da, [00:33:20] da. 'Cause they don't see me that way. [00:33:22] David Kessler: I, I, I've, you know, and we'll talk about [00:33:25] it, I've been through just great tragedies. Right. And I think I'm one of the [00:33:30] happiest people I'm aware of, that I love life. I don't... [00:33:35] This idea that we're going to die, I absolutely, I can [00:33:40] close up, I can shut down, or I can go, "Let me drink [00:33:45] in this moment more." [00:33:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:33:46] David Kessler: Let me really take this in. [00:33:48] David Kessler: Wring out the most, yeah. This is, [00:33:50] like, an amazing moment we're in, and to appreciate it. [00:33:54] Dr. Taz: Well, I think it's, you [00:33:55] know, just, it's, like, almost like adversity, right? I think when you experience it, you're so much more [00:34:00] grateful for every moment you have, for every opportunity you have, and you're able to move [00:34:05] forward, you know? [00:34:05] Dr. Taz: So- And the [00:34:05] David Kessler: humanness of it all. [00:34:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah. [00:34:07] David Kessler: You know, it's not like I don't get upset at the [00:34:10] little things, but I also recognize the humanness of a- [00:34:12] Dr. Taz: Well, I think that's a really important point, because we spend a [00:34:15] lot of time on this show talking about the human experience, and a part of the human experience, it's not just [00:34:20] about being, like, strong and energetic and vital and youthful looking- In a [00:34:24] David Kessler: state [00:34:25] of awe [00:34:25] Dr. Taz: you know, all the time. It's also there are going to be these [00:34:30] other emotions- Right ... that you're gonna deal with. There's going to be grief. There's gonna be loss. There are [00:34:35] going to be setbacks. And the ability, like you're describing, to expand, some [00:34:40] might call that resilience to a certain extent, right? Or i- I'd be curious to see what you say about [00:34:45] that. [00:34:45] Dr. Taz: But the ability to expand through the range of emotions that we as [00:34:50] humans- Right ... have to experience, but then understand that, that this is a range, [00:34:55] is a part of what gives us resilience, right? [00:34:57] David Kessler: And we live in a culture now that's [00:35:00] all about, how do I master the peaks? [00:35:02] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:35:03] David Kessler: And I'm about, [00:35:05] ooh, you wanna master the peaks? [00:35:07] David Kessler: Walk through the valleys well. Right. [00:35:10] Walk through the valleys well. Because how many of us, and [00:35:15] we see this- Mm-hmm ... we see people with so much success and fame and [00:35:20] money, and are just tragically unhappy. [00:35:23] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:35:24] David Kessler: [00:35:25] It's if you don't walk through the valley, you get to the peak, and you go, "Is this all [00:35:30] there is?" [00:35:30] Dr. Taz: All [00:35:30] David Kessler: the time. Why is this peak so empty? [00:35:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. All the time. Well, [00:35:35] grief is not just about death, right? [00:35:37] David Kessler: Correct. Right. Good point. I'm glad you brought [00:35:39] Dr. Taz: that up. You know, I, I [00:35:40] do wanna make sure people understand that grief comes in lots of different forms. [00:35:44] David Kessler: [00:35:45] Yes. [00:35:45] Dr. Taz: It can come in the form of a divorce. Yes. The loss of a child, [00:35:50] loss of a loved one, right? [00:35:51] Dr. Taz: Correct. It can come in the form of a loss of a job, [00:35:55] right? There, I mean, there's so many, loss of your identity, right? [00:35:58] David Kessler: Yes. [00:35:58] Dr. Taz: You know, loss [00:36:00] of basic functions in life that you were able to do, either because of sickness or some other injury or [00:36:05] something along those lines. You know, is that type of grief different from the grief of [00:36:10] death and dying? [00:36:12] Dr. Taz: And what is the journey for those [00:36:14] David Kessler: folks? There's a [00:36:15] little nuances there, but I always think of them as a death. I always say a [00:36:20] breakup is the death of that relationship in the romantic form. A divorce [00:36:25] is the death of the marriage. A job loss is the death of that job. [00:36:30] Pet loss is obviously the loss of the pet, your dear pet. [00:36:34] David Kessler: But also [00:36:35] there's things we're talking more about that like, oh, being in relationship [00:36:40] with someone who's narcissistically abusive- [00:36:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:36:44] David Kessler: feels like the death [00:36:45] of yourself. There's a lot of inner deaths. Those are the [00:36:50] only ones we can come back from that death. You know, we [00:36:55] can't undo a divorce. We can't often, we can't undo a physical [00:37:00] death. [00:37:00] David Kessler: Right, [00:37:00] Dr. Taz: right. [00:37:00] David Kessler: But we can find a way to heal ourselves. [00:37:05] Um, so there's so many losses, and here's [00:37:10] the thing. They all sit in this world. One of the things I try to teach [00:37:15] is security in your grief. People go, "What's that?" [00:37:20] I have security in my grief. I know my losses. I take care of [00:37:25] myself. I try to grieve fully and live fully. [00:37:28] David Kessler: Someone comes up [00:37:30] and tells me they're grieving over they didn't get the school [00:37:35] they wanted, I sit with them and see their sadness. [00:37:39] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:37:39] David Kessler: It's [00:37:40] not a comment on my grief. Someone else, you know, [00:37:45] breaks up with a relationship of three months, I don't go, "Pfft, that's not real grief." [00:37:49] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:37:49] David Kessler: People [00:37:50] always wanna know from me, what's the worst grief? [00:37:53] David Kessler: Is it a child dying? [00:37:55] Is it a divorce from your soulmate? The worst grief is [00:38:00] always yours. [00:38:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Your experience. [00:38:02] David Kessler: Your experience. Yeah. None of us [00:38:05] can know each other's grief. And comparison [00:38:10] is of our mind. [00:38:11] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:38:11] David Kessler: We don't have a broken mind, we have a broken heart. [00:38:15] [00:38:15] Dr. Taz: Most of us, or what I've experienced, most of us experience grief right here. [00:38:19] David Kessler: Yes. [00:38:19] Dr. Taz: [00:38:20] Right in the chest. Has that been your experience as well? As, as people say, "I feel like I can't breathe. I feel [00:38:25] like something's sitting on my chest." You know, these are some of the things I hear- Y- ... over and over again ... I [00:38:29] David Kessler: [00:38:30] think it's probably the most common, but I experience grief in my [00:38:35] lower back. [00:38:35] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:38:36] David Kessler: I know people experience it in their throat, [00:38:40] headaches. [00:38:40] David Kessler: There's broken heart syndrome that we see as a real illness now. It's [00:38:44] Dr. Taz: [00:38:45] a, it's real. [00:38:45] David Kessler: Very real. Yes. Yeah. Takotsubo cardiomyopathy. Yes. And [00:38:50] we think probably maybe over 90% of us get [00:38:55] broken heart syndrome, changes, actual physical changes in our heart, [00:39:00] and there's a tiny, tiny percentage that do die from it. [00:39:04] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:39:04] David Kessler: [00:39:05] And that's why we always say, obviously when anyone says chest pain, I'm like, "Get it checked- Right ... and then we'll [00:39:10] talk." [00:39:10] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:39:10] David Kessler: Mm. Make sure your doctor knows about broken heart syndrome. Um, so [00:39:15] it's, it's fascinating that, and I work closely with Paul Denniston, who does- Mm-hmm ... grief [00:39:20] yoga. [00:39:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:39:21] David Kessler: And he always really helps people feel [00:39:25] where it is in their body. [00:39:27] David Kessler: Where does your grief reside? And [00:39:30] just like you said, a lot of times it's right here. [00:39:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And the energy world, like the [00:39:35] people that do energy healing, I mean, they- Right ... I've always been fascinated by the work that they do. They [00:39:40] talk about grief living right in here. Yes. And they talk about the movement of it. [00:39:44] Dr. Taz: Yes. Can [00:39:45] we move it? They don't talk about it going away. They're not like, "Okay, let's go put it on a shelf. You're done." But they talk [00:39:50] about moving it. Can we move it? Can we- Yes ... move it to a different part of the body? Can you, can you [00:39:55] understand where it plays into the rest of your experience? So I always find that so fascinating. [00:39:58] Dr. Taz: And that [00:39:58] David Kessler: our [00:40:00] emotions need motion. [00:40:00] Dr. Taz: Correct. Yeah. [00:40:01] David Kessler: You know, there needs to be movement internally of [00:40:05] that energy, externally of our body. [00:40:07] Dr. Taz: Well, you have, again, [00:40:10] published many books since even those first two. This is your sixth book now, right? [00:40:14] David Kessler: Six and [00:40:15] seven. [00:40:15] Dr. Taz: Sixth and seven. All right. You're on a, you're on a roll here. [00:40:18] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about what's different- [00:40:19] David Kessler: [00:40:20] Yeah ... [00:40:20] Dr. Taz: in these books versus some of what you've done in the past. [00:40:22] David Kessler: So eight years ago, [00:40:25] been a grief expert for decades, and [00:40:30] unexpectedly, my younger son, David, at 21 years old, dies. [00:40:34] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:40:35] [00:40:36] David Kessler: Devastating. Devastating, devastating, [00:40:40] devastating. I, you know, m- felt like my world [00:40:45] ended, and I canceled [00:40:50] everything and sat with that, and you know, it was just so brutal. [00:40:54] David Kessler: And [00:40:55] probably a few months in, I was home [00:41:00] and I picked up this chapter [00:41:05] that I had written on meaning, and I'd lifted up, I went, "Meaning, pfft, like that's gonna help," [00:41:10] and I threw it back down. And about couple of [00:41:15] weeks later, I read it, and it didn't take away the pain, but it [00:41:20] gave me some comfort. And I got so curious, and I went back and I read Viktor [00:41:25] Frankl's work. [00:41:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:41:26] David Kessler: And Man's Search for Meaning, and how [00:41:30] does all this sit within us? And the one thing that personally, there was the [00:41:35] grief expert in me, and here's the worst part is, besides my son dying being the worst part, [00:41:40] is I had to take my own medicine. I used to [00:41:45] hand out, "Go to a counselor- [00:41:47] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:41:47] David Kessler: go to a grief group," like candy.[00:41:50] [00:41:50] David Kessler: I had to go to a counselor, a grief [00:41:55] counselor, and I had to go to a grief group. It took me three [00:42:00] times to just walk into the group. [00:42:01] Dr. Taz: Oh my goodness. [00:42:02] David Kessler: I put a cap on, I took my [00:42:05] glasses off, and uh, my contacts out and put glasses [00:42:10] on, and I had to sit in a grief group with my books five feet away [00:42:15] on a table there on display, and I couldn't say anyone, "That's me." [00:42:19] David Kessler: [00:42:20] That's [00:42:20] Dr. Taz: me. [00:42:21] David Kessler: I had to be the father. And so [00:42:25] as the grief expert watched me going through this, I would go, [00:42:30] "Yep, that's true. Yep, yep, yeah." And when I got to, [00:42:35] "Someday you're gonna have to accept this," I was like, "I'm not stopping there." [00:42:40] And Kubler-Ross and I had always taught acceptance isn't a [00:42:45] finality. [00:42:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:42:47] David Kessler: I thought there has to be more. [00:42:49] David Kessler: [00:42:50] And finally, what I got for me was meaning. I wanted to find [00:42:55] meaning. And as I began researching this, I thought the [00:43:00] disconnect in this for people is when they hear meaning, they go, "There's no meaning in a- In a [00:43:05] loss ... child's death- Right ... in a horrible divorce- Right ... in a murder." And I [00:43:10] realized, oh, meaning isn't in the horrible event. [00:43:14] David Kessler: [00:43:15] Meaning is what we do after. Meaning isn't the [00:43:20] post-traumatic stress. Meaning is the post-traumatic growth. [00:43:23] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:43:24] David Kessler: And [00:43:25] so that became finding meaning. And I was so honored. The publisher [00:43:30] had said, "You know, it's almost like you're adding a stage." And [00:43:35] they asked, and we asked the Kubler-Ross family and her foundation, [00:43:40] and they so graciously said yes, that I could add a sixth stage- Oh, amazing [00:43:44] David Kessler: to her iconic [00:43:45] stages. The finding meaning. So that's finding meaning, the sixth stage of grief. And it was [00:43:50] also a chance to write again. Hey, everyone, they're not linear. Stop that. Right. So I got to [00:43:55] say that. Remind everyone, yeah. You know, don't misuse them and misinterpret them. But [00:44:00] it was a way to really help people and for my [00:44:05] own healing, and that we have this [00:44:10] choice, you know. [00:44:10] David Kessler: And the choice for me, I gotta tell you, in those early days, a [00:44:15] dear friend, Diane Gray, who's head of the, was head of the Kubler-Ross Foundation at the time, [00:44:20] she said, "You're going down. You're gonna be down [00:44:25] for a long time." And she said, "At some point, you're gonna hit [00:44:30] bottom, and you're gonna have a choice."[00:44:35] [00:44:35] David Kessler: Stay there or do you live again? [00:44:37] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:44:39] David Kessler: And I have to tell [00:44:40] you, after that, she had planted just a seed. [00:44:45] And that little neighborhood that I told you I lived in, this cute little neighborhood, [00:44:50] I could see into the future, and I could see a day in [00:44:55] 20 years, the kids in the neighborhood riding their bike, and they stop at this [00:45:00] house with cobwebs. [00:45:02] David Kessler: And the new kid says to them, "Is that a hau- Like that ... is [00:45:05] that a haunted house?" And they go, "Ooh, it's a grief expert [00:45:10] who helped everyone, but then his son died, and he's never [00:45:15] come out again." [00:45:15] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:16] David Kessler: I could see becoming that person, [00:45:20] and I realized, oh, that's this end of the spectrum, [00:45:25] and I see people there What's the other end?[00:45:30] [00:45:30] David Kessler: That is the finding meaning, the post-traumatic growth. And I know [00:45:35] my meaning- I was about to ask you ... as my son- [00:45:37] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:45:37] David Kessler: loved my work. [00:45:40] He would never have wanted his death to constrict it. [00:45:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:44] David Kessler: So [00:45:45] I decided that in honor of him, my meaning would be to expand my [00:45:50] work and go deeper, which was this. [00:45:52] Dr. Taz: Amazing. So [00:45:55] post-traumatic growth is on the other side. [00:45:58] David Kessler: How do we not just go through [00:46:00] this, but grow through this? [00:46:01] Dr. Taz: Grow through it. I love that. [00:46:03] David Kessler: Yeah. [00:46:03] Dr. Taz: And then you have a workbook to go with it. [00:46:04] David Kessler: [00:46:05] Everyone was like, "What's grief work?" Right. "And how do we implement this?" Right. Yeah. And, you know, [00:46:10] clinicians were wondering, like, "I know how to get through the third session- [00:46:13] Dr. Taz: Right [00:46:13] David Kessler: but where do we go [00:46:15] after that?" [00:46:15] Dr. Taz: I was about to ask you, what do we as doctors do? Exactly. [00:46:17] David Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. Where do we go after that? And [00:46:20] this really is a manual, the workbook. I designed it [00:46:25] that it's like I'm sitting at your kitchen table and we're just doing it together, [00:46:30] and I tell people, "Oh my gosh, my co-authors have been Kugler Ross and Louise Hay, [00:46:35] and this book, my co-author is the person doing it with me- [00:46:38] Dr. Taz: Amazing [00:46:39] David Kessler: at [00:46:40] the kitchen table." And I did it lightly. [00:46:45] Some checklist, like do a little checklist inventory on disloyalty. [00:46:50] Where do you believe living again might be disloyal? Then there's some more [00:46:55] open-ended questions. [00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Wait, what's disloyalty meaning? [00:46:57] David Kessler: Like disloyalty, we feel like you [00:47:00] should never laugh again. Right. [00:47:01] David Kessler: You should never- You feel guilty ... be happy again. Right. It's that guilt. Just [00:47:05] to help people become aware, so I made parts easy, you know, midway, [00:47:10] and then I really take people to the end to help them find, [00:47:15] and I did a Joseph Campbell's hero's journey around [00:47:20] grief. [00:47:20] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:47:20] David Kessler: That the griever is on the hero's journey. [00:47:23] Dr. Taz: Mm, I love that. [00:47:24] David Kessler: And that we're [00:47:25] all coming out the other end. [00:47:27] Dr. Taz: So I love all the tools and the [00:47:30] resources that you've provided both for us as clinicians and doctors, right? And even for [00:47:35] the individual going through this. But at the end of the day, healing, right, and becoming [00:47:40] whole is about a community experience, right? [00:47:42] Dr. Taz: Yes. It's about what you're surrounded by. Right. [00:47:45] As, as we watch people, and let's say we hand this to someone that we [00:47:50] know might need it, or even to another doctor who might need it, you know, but [00:47:55] as we sit in this community, as we sit together, what can the rest of us do? [00:47:59] David Kessler: Yeah, and it's [00:48:00] so important because like you said, so many times physicians, nurses, they're like, "All I know [00:48:05] is to say, 'How are you doing?'" [00:48:07] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:48:08] David Kessler: Which comes across like as a [00:48:10] stupid question. Right. Like, well, I don't know, they just died yesterday. [00:48:15] I tell people to add a time after it. How are you doing today? [00:48:20] Today. How are you doing right now? So that people get you're checking in on them. [00:48:25] And just like you said, study after study is [00:48:30] showing us in trauma and in grief, we need community. [00:48:34] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:48:34] David Kessler: [00:48:35] We need others. That's why I love doing my groups online to help others, we focus [00:48:40] on the death of a person, to help other people in our healing. [00:48:45] Look, the most, uh, cruelest thing we [00:48:50] do in war is kill someone. The second cruelest is [00:48:55] isolation. [00:48:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:48:56] David Kessler: When we go into grief, we often wanna [00:49:00] isolate, and we need other people to heal. [00:49:04] David Kessler: [00:49:05] Grief must be witnessed. We need to see our pain in the [00:49:10] eyes of another. [00:49:11] Dr. Taz: And I wanna ask you one more question before we leave this [00:49:15] conversation. Do men experience grief differently than women, [00:49:20] or is the experience universal? [00:49:22] David Kessler: The experience is universal, [00:49:25] but there are some things about how we were raised. [00:49:29] David Kessler: You know, look, [00:49:30] I'm a fixer. You got any problem- Yeah ... I've got three solutions for you. And then [00:49:35] we, you know, I think for men, it's challenging for everyone, but you know, [00:49:40] men today are telling me, "It's so confusing. On one hand, I'm now [00:49:45] supposed to be vulnerable and show my feelings, but I'm also supposed to be the rock." [00:49:48] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:49:48] David Kessler: So it's like, you [00:49:50] know, I'm not- You can't win ... sure at any moment. Right. And then, you know, people love that I'm a fixer, [00:49:55] but got to grief and you got no tools. [00:49:57] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:50:00] What would you tell anyone watching or listening today that's just struggling? [00:50:05] And it doesn't have to be from death, it could be from- Right [00:50:07] Dr. Taz: divorce, it could be from, you know, a career [00:50:10] disruption, it could be from betrayal. So many different losses. So many- Right ... different ways we experience them. What would you [00:50:15] tell them? What are your, what are your kind of like parting words to them and directive to them [00:50:20] if they're just in that state of isolation, they're feeling the chest pain, they're, [00:50:25] they just don't know where to go next? [00:50:26] David Kessler: I would te- obviously get the check, chest pain checked. Yes, please. But after [00:50:30] that, after that, I would say, you know-[00:50:35] [00:50:36] David Kessler: Really honor what you've been through [00:50:40] and do not minimize it. We always go, "Oh, but it's just a divorce. No one died," or, "It's [00:50:45] just a no one died." And then sometimes we go, "Well, someone died, but they were 100," [00:50:50] or someone else w- there's always a loss worse than ours and [00:50:55] one that seems easier than ours. It doesn't matter. [00:50:58] David Kessler: Just be present with yours [00:51:00] and seek support. I tell people, "I bought a maintenance [00:51:05] plan for my tire And yet people don't wanna give [00:51:10] themself a book- Right ... or a group- Right ... or a counselor or support. And I [00:51:15] gotta tell you, I pride myself, I said this last night, in my online groups, we are [00:51:20] full of physicians and nurses and therapists. [00:51:23] David Kessler: I love when [00:51:25] we take care of ourselves and we don't let ourselves be the wounded healers. [00:51:30] [00:51:30] Dr. Taz: I'm gonna add a medical nerd- Please ... point to this too, is that when [00:51:35] we don't do this work, regardless of what it is or the experience has [00:51:40] been, it shows up in your lab work. [00:51:42] David Kessler: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:51:44] Dr. Taz: There's [00:51:45] inflammation, there is high cortisol- Absolutely [00:51:46] Dr. Taz: there's hormone disruption. And over time- [00:51:49] David Kessler: Yes ... [00:51:49] Dr. Taz: [00:51:50] that's a diagnosis. [00:51:51] David Kessler: Absolutely. [00:51:51] Dr. Taz: So this is not [00:51:53] David Kessler: just- So affects the body. This is not [00:51:55] just feel better emotionally. Right. This is your and [00:52:00] our soul, the vision is dampened. Right. You know? The [00:52:05] other thing I wanna say is a number of people say, "Oh, I bought your book, I put it on the shelf, not ready." [00:52:09] Dr. Taz: [00:52:10] Right. [00:52:10] David Kessler: And I'll say, "Why?" And they go, "I'm not ready to go into the pain." [00:52:13] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:52:13] David Kessler: Our illusion [00:52:15] with the resources, anyone's resources, is that I don't wanna go into the [00:52:20] pain. The pain isn't in the shelf or the doctor's office or the [00:52:25] counselor, it's in us. And the last thing I would leave you with, and it sort of goes [00:52:30] along with what you just said, what we run from pursues us. [00:52:34] David Kessler: [00:52:35] Yes. And what we face transforms us. [00:52:38] Dr. Taz: Those are powerful [00:52:40] words. I don't think we could end it any better than that. I hope this has been inspirational [00:52:45] and I hope this has been a source of comfort to anyone listening today who may be at a [00:52:50] phase of their life where they just need some direction, and I hope your books provide that. [00:52:54] Dr. Taz: I know they [00:52:55] did to me through the course of my career, so I'm so grateful for that. But if [00:53:00] somebody's ready for more and they wanna connect with you, and I know you have a million resources- Right ... talk to us a little bit about that. [00:53:04] David Kessler: [00:53:05] Grief.com, there's tons of free resources, there's trainings, [00:53:10] there's groups if you feel like you need more. [00:53:12] David Kessler: Um, there's also, I put [00:53:15] lots of things on social media. I just went to TikTok. I'm finding my way there. Yes. There we go. [00:53:20] Um, and, uh, you know, I, my handle on all those, whether it's [00:53:25] Facebook, Instagram, it's TikTok, is iamdavidkesler. That's how folks can find me, and I [00:53:30] put tons of information out there. [00:53:32] Dr. Taz: Fantastic. I [00:53:32] David Kessler: do a training for professionals and [00:53:35] people who wanna turn their pain into purpose. So lots of resources at grief.com. [00:53:40] [00:53:40] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here today. [00:53:42] David Kessler: Thank you for your work. [00:53:43] Dr. Taz: I love it. I gotta ask one [00:53:45] last question. What makes you hol?[00:53:50] [00:53:50] David Kessler: Finding my authentic self [00:53:51] Dr. Taz: Love it. Love it. Thank you again. Thank [00:53:54] David Kessler: you. Thank [00:53:55] you. [00:53:57] Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening and watching today's [00:54:00] episode of hol+. Be sure to share this episode with your friends and family, and if you haven't already, [00:54:05] please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or click the follow button on Apple, [00:54:10] Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. [00:54:12] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on all social [00:54:15] channels @DrTazMD. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.